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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #200 on: May 09, 2017, 08:44:09 PM »
So it is more than just
Quote
"one White House official lies to another White House official" and Russia knowing it.
There is also some "problematic underlying conduct" of Flynn, and that's why Yates rushed to the White House. That underlying conduct is still classified, so Yates had to "rely on an artificial description of events" in her May 8 testimony.

Nov 12 2016 - President Obama receives Trump at the WH and warns him against hiring Flynn
Jan 20 - Trump sworn in (Friday)
Jan 24 - FBI interviews Flynn (Tuesday)
Jan 25 - Attorney General Yates gets detailed read-out from FBI, their "302 report" not yet written
Jan 26 - Yates + senior member of her DOJ national security division inform WH (McGahn + associate) in a secure room at the WH about Flynn's "problematic underlying conduct" (classified), not waiting for the FBI's 302.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 08:52:20 PM by Martin Gisser »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #201 on: May 09, 2017, 08:44:30 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Did Donald Trump try to threaten Sally Yates on Twitter? If so, he committed a felony".  Maybe the DOJ will take appropriate action :P.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/did-donald-trump-try-to-threaten-sally-yates-on-twitter-if-so-he-committed-a-felony/

Extract: "If Trump's tweet was meant to "influence, delay, or prevent" Yates' testimony, it could be felony witness tampering.

On Monday in the hours before former acting Attorney General Sally Yates’ testimony to the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Terrorism, the president engaged in a predictable tweetstorm, complete with an attack on the “fake news.” It’s entirely possible that one of those Monday-morning tweets constituted felonious witness tampering."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #202 on: May 09, 2017, 09:13:48 PM »
The timeline as I understand it:

Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1

Maybe this will help fill in some gaps:
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/


Wow!
I hadn't intended to start in 1979, but we'll see where it leads.
Thanks
Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #203 on: May 09, 2017, 09:40:41 PM »
The Kushner Project Touted In China Is In Trouble At Home:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-08/kushner-project-touted-by-sister-in-china-is-in-trouble-at-home

I think both Trump AND Kushner are BOTH in trouble.  As in.....OVER INDEBTED TROUBLE.





 



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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #204 on: May 09, 2017, 09:49:22 PM »
So it is more than just
Quote
"one White House official lies to another White House official" and Russia knowing it.
There is also some "problematic underlying conduct" of Flynn, and that's why Yates rushed to the White House. That underlying conduct is still classified, so Yates had to "rely on an artificial description of events" in her May 8 testimony.

Nov 12 2016 - President Obama receives Trump at the WH and warns him against hiring Flynn
Jan 20 - Trump sworn in (Friday)
Jan 24 - FBI interviews Flynn (Tuesday)
Jan 25 - Attorney General Yates gets detailed read-out from FBI, their "302 report" not yet written
Jan 26 - Yates + senior member of her DOJ national security division inform WH (McGahn + associate) in a secure room at the WH about Flynn's "problematic underlying conduct" (classified), not waiting for the FBI's 302.


Thanks
Updated timeline - still on edit 1
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #205 on: May 10, 2017, 12:18:07 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "Press secretary's statement on the firing of FBI Director James B. Comey:", now Trump can put his own man in charge of the agency that is investigating the Russia – Trump connection.  Hopefully, Congress will create an independent investigation panel or a Special Prosecutor.


http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-statement-on-the-firing-of-fbi-director-1494366997-htmlstory.html

Extract: "Today, President Donald J. Trump informed FBI Director James Comey that he has been terminated and removed from office. President Trump acted based on the clear recommendations of both Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

"The FBI is one of our Nation’s most cherished and respected institutions and today will mark a new beginning for our crown jewel of law enforcement,' said President Trump.

"A search for a new permanent FBI Director will begin immediately."

See also:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/james-comey-fbi-trump-white-out/

&

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/09/white-house-fires-fbi-director-james-comey?via=mobile&source=copyurl

&

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fires-fbi-director-james-comey/
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 01:20:39 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #206 on: May 10, 2017, 12:19:46 AM »
Well...no surprise there.  I told you a week or so ago that Comey was toast...and so he is.

The investigation was obviously getting too close...and too far along.  NOW.....the moderate senators like Graham and McCain and others.....will have to carry the water for democracy.

Donnie is guilty of MANY THINGS.  And one of the last things he wants to happen....is for people to be rummaging around in his finances.  TOO MANY SKELETONS.....

This is only the first of MANY FIRINGS TO COME most likely.....before the WHOLE process is over.  How many FBI directors will he have to fire?  How many people will LEAK information to newspapers?

This is SERIOUS STUFF NOW.  As I noted several times....and many months ago....this will make Watergate look like child's play.


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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #207 on: May 10, 2017, 12:36:54 AM »
Here is a piece of the Watergate timeline.  Remember.....Nixon was re-elected in November 1972...so I included items from February of 1973 - July of 1973 (the 6 months AFTER Nixon was re-elected)....so this is the same "time period" we are now in:

============================================================
February 28, 1973: Confirmation hearings begin for confirming L. Patrick Gray as permanent Director of the FBI (the prior FBI Director had died the year before from natural causes). During these hearings, Gray reveals that he had complied with an order from John Dean to provide daily updates on the Watergate investigation, and also that Dean had "probably lied" to FBI investigators.

March 17, 1973: Watergate burglar James McCord writes a letter to Judge John Sirica, claiming that some of his testimony was perjured under pressure and that the burglary was not a CIA operation, but had involved other government officials, thereby leading the investigation to the White House.

April 6, 1973: White House counsel John Dean begins cooperating with federal Watergate prosecutors.

April 27, 1973: L. Patrick Gray resigns after it comes to light that he destroyed files from E. Howard Hunt's safe. William Ruckelshaus is appointed as his replacement.

April 30, 1973: Senior White House administration officials John Ehrlichman, H. R. Haldeman, and Richard Kleindienst resign; John Dean is fired.

May 17, 1973 : The Senate Watergate Committee begins its nationally televised hearings.

May 19, 1973: Independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox appointed to oversee investigation into possible presidential impropriety.

June 3, 1973: John Dean tells Watergate investigators that he has discussed the cover-up with Nixon at least 35 times.

July 13, 1973: Alexander Butterfield, former presidential appointments secretary, reveals that all conversations and telephone calls in Nixon’s office have been taped since 1971.

July 18, 1973: Nixon orders White House taping systems disconnected.

July 23, 1973: Nixon refuses to turn over presidential tapings to Senate Watergate Committee or the special prosecutor.
=============================================================

HISTORY RHYMES....

Here is the Wiki link for the whole thing:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Watergate_scandal
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pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #208 on: May 10, 2017, 01:15:42 AM »
This is where we see how much the American system can bend, or if it is indeed shattered beyond repair. 

The comparisons to Watergate are understandable, but there was a different brand of Republican during that crisis with willingness to preserve and maintain the country at the expense of their party.   There have always been monied interests and oligarchs controlling the puppet strings of power, but the checks and systems to moderate have been obliterated over recent decades.

There was never any guarantee that America would have a happy ending or that the perceived democratic system would endure.  For many groups and individuals it was never an even playing field, now the whole show could be closing up shop.

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #209 on: May 10, 2017, 01:42:53 AM »
People fired by Trump:
--Sally Yates
--Preet Bharara
--James Comey

People investigating Trump:
--Sally Yates
--Preet Bharara
--James Comey

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #210 on: May 10, 2017, 02:17:24 AM »
Watergate gave us at least some nice vocabulary...
"Saturday Night Massacre"
"Follow the money"
...?

Latest Keith Olbermann piece: Trump golf courses financed by Russians. Who else would have given him money.

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #211 on: May 10, 2017, 03:20:58 AM »
What a coincidence. 

Grand Jury Subpoenas Issued in FBI's Russia Investigation

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/05/09/politics/grand-jury-fbi-russia/index.html

(CNN) Federal prosecutors have issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn seeking business records, as part of the ongoing probe of Russian meddling in last year's election, according to people familiar with the matter. CNN learned of the subpoenas hours before President Donald Trump fired FBI director James Comey.

The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the FBI's broader investigation begun last July into possible ties between Trump campaign associates and Russia.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #212 on: May 10, 2017, 04:34:05 AM »
Next play:  Will Associate AG hire a special prosecutor or not?  If not....marches will happen.  Donnie will leave office one way or another over the next 15 - 18 months.  Americans will fill the streets otherwise.  Not immediately....but in a growing ground swell.

The process continues.......
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #213 on: May 10, 2017, 05:45:43 AM »
Maybe Richard Burr will dig his heels in now and put up some resistance to these Trump shenanigans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/top-senate-intel-republican-troubled-by-comey-firing/ar-BBAXakf

Extract: "Burr, who is leading the Senate’s investigation into alleged coordination between members of the Trump campaign and the Russian government, called Comey a “public servant of the highest order,” and said his firing was “a loss for the Bureau and the nation.”

Burr said he was “troubled by the timing and reasoning of Director Comey’s termination,” and noted that he “has been more forthcoming with information than any FBI Director I can recall in my tenure on the congressional intel committees.”"
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budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #214 on: May 10, 2017, 06:21:45 AM »
Several Republican senators have voiced concern over the firing of Dir. Comey. What I find interesting is a rare disagreement between Sen's McCain and Graham over this, as described in the following link:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politics/republican-response-comey-fired/index.html


pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #215 on: May 10, 2017, 06:46:29 AM »
Next play:  Will Associate AG hire a special prosecutor or not?  If not....marches will happen.  Donnie will leave office one way or another over the next 15 - 18 months.  Americans will fill the streets otherwise.  Not immediately....but in a growing ground swell.

The process continues.......

IMO this will likely play out on a more accelerated timeline.  Weeks to 6 months tops.  The outcome is uncertain but it's going to move pretty quickly from this point.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #216 on: May 10, 2017, 01:38:38 PM »
Right now....our democracy is in the hand of several moderate Senators.  If they cave...WE ARE FUCKED.

First things first.  Donnie will try to replace his FBI director ASAP.  Guiliani or Christy will be nominated.  The Senate has to approve.  I "think" most or all of the Democrats understand what is going on...and HOPEFULLY enough moderate Republicans do as well.  But that is FAR FROM ASSURED.

The FBI investigation NEEDS TO CONTINUE.  Without that....we are SCREWED

The thing that people forget...is that we are dealing with a delusional SOCIOPATH.  I expect some pretty "crazy ass" executive orders to come out in the coming weeks.  I will NOT BE SURPRISED WITH ANYTHING HE DOES.

He will have NO PROBLEM with releasing executive orders that go WAY OVER THE LINE.

The press has got to "step up their game."  They need to strap on their big ones.  This is SERIOUS BUSINESS NOW....

Also note.....Donnie is in bed with Rupert Murdoch.  So the people watching FOX lies....are continuing to get brainwashed.  If the US democracy makes it through this somehow....FOX is screwed, and Murdoch likely realizes that.  He has been working with Donnie.....
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2017, 03:34:10 PM »
Honor. I think the US achieved greatness as a nation because it was lucky enough to have enough honorable people to maintain a powerful democracy. It wasn't the strength of the constitution or the set of laws. It was honorable people doing the right thing more often than not.

Honor has been degrading slowly for decades. Bush2 and citizens united accelerated the decay of honor. Obama tried to reestablish it but the forces of fear and intolerance took over the Republicans and things actually got worse. Trump seems like the final blow to honor.

Are there enough honorable people in the Republican party to do the right thing to preserve democracy? or have they all been seduced by the illusion of power that fossil fuel/ Putin/Trump is presenting to them?

We are about to find out. This is terrifying, but no more than an Arctic collapse. 
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2017, 03:50:07 PM »
This is like 1974 all over again, with the added problem of having a major news (so-called) network on Trump's side.

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #219 on: May 10, 2017, 05:12:32 PM »
The timeline as I understand it:

Terry
edit 1 - tagged *1

Maybe this will help fill in some gaps:
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/


Wow!
I hadn't intended to start in 1979, but we'll see where it leads.
Thanks
Terry
Laura
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.


If there is something you think I should add, give me a heads up. As a long time fan of Bill Moyers I'm a little taken aback by this research.


Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #220 on: May 10, 2017, 05:17:21 PM »
Right now....our democracy is in the hand of several moderate Senators.  If they cave...WE ARE FUCKED.

First things first.  Donnie will try to replace his FBI director ASAP.  Guiliani or Christy will be nominated.  The Senate has to approve.  I "think" most or all of the Democrats understand what is going on...and HOPEFULLY enough moderate Republicans do as well.  But that is FAR FROM ASSURED.

The FBI investigation NEEDS TO CONTINUE.  Without that....we are SCREWED

The thing that people forget...is that we are dealing with a delusional SOCIOPATH.  I expect some pretty "crazy ass" executive orders to come out in the coming weeks.  I will NOT BE SURPRISED WITH ANYTHING HE DOES.

He will have NO PROBLEM with releasing executive orders that go WAY OVER THE LINE.

The press has got to "step up their game."  They need to strap on their big ones.  This is SERIOUS BUSINESS NOW....

Also note.....Donnie is in bed with Rupert Murdoch.  So the people watching FOX lies....are continuing to get brainwashed.  If the US democracy makes it through this somehow....FOX is screwed, and Murdoch likely realizes that.  He has been working with Donnie.....
No worries - I have it on good authority that at some point we'll see Trump's tax returns & his presidency will end. :D


Terry


Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #221 on: May 10, 2017, 05:44:59 PM »
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.

Facts would seem to disagree.

Daily Beast: "The Ukrainian lawmaker pushing the plan, Andrii Artemenko, has praised Trump and Putin and is seeking to oust Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko. “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a CIA agent,” Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”"

NY Times: "Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans [to disseminate anti-Poroshenko propaganda] from top aides to Putin."

Vanity Fair: "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."

NY Post: [Oronov]..."had arranged a meeting with Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, Trump associate Felix Sater and Andrii Artemenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliament, to discuss a peace plan for Ukraine that would have given Putin control of Crimea."

People may disagree with Moyers if they wish, but they'll need to keep their facts straight to convince anyone else...

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #222 on: May 10, 2017, 06:24:06 PM »
Artemenko etc. is a huge can of worms. I've given up on getting anything right here.
E.g.
Quote
Vanity Fair: "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."
But then, according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Artemenko
Quote
2013 ... he actively participated in the struggle against the Yanukovych regime.
so he worked against Manafort's client. But then, he might have flip flopped (perhaps after a nudge by Putin) just like Yanukovych himself...

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2017, 06:52:35 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Comey asked for more money, manpower for Russia investigation days before firing".  Is the Trump administration planning on starving the Russiagate investigation to death?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-comeys-firing/story?id=47318625

Extract: "FBI Director James Comey requested additional money and manpower from Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein for the investigation into Russian interference in the presidential election just days prior to his firing, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the situation."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #224 on: May 10, 2017, 08:56:32 PM »
I read the full timeline. Some is good, some is way off base. ie Andrii Artemenko is not pro-Putin. He's the head of Solidarity of the Right Forces - definitely not a friend of Russia, or Russians.

Facts would seem to disagree.

Daily Beast: "The Ukrainian lawmaker pushing the plan, Andrii Artemenko, has praised Trump and Putin and is seeking to oust Ukraine’s president, Petro Poroshenko. “A lot of people will call me a Russian agent, a U.S. agent, a CIA agent,” Artemenko said. “But how can you find a good solution between our countries if we do not talk?”"

NY Times: "Mr. Artemenko said he had received encouragement for his plans [to disseminate anti-Poroshenko propaganda] from top aides to Putin."

Vanity Fair: "Artemenko reportedly belongs to the same pro-Putin bloc of lawmakers with which Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was involved."

NY Post: [Oronov]..."had arranged a meeting with Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, Trump associate Felix Sater and Andrii Artemenko, a member of Ukraine’s parliament, to discuss a peace plan for Ukraine that would have given Putin control of Crimea."

People may disagree with Moyers if they wish, but they'll need to keep their facts straight to convince anyone else...
Our boy's been zigging and zagging in many directions since his days with Lyashko and his Radical Party. At this stage I wouldn't want to bet big bucks that he was for or against anyone. Two of his kids are Americans & one is a Canadian, not bad for a Ukrainian politician/oligarch who apparently has been bouncing all over the ideological map.


When I was following him he was a stooge/thug under Oleg Lyashko, who claimed Amnesty International was "obviously biased" when they held him up as "one particularly aberrant MP". They may have been reacting to his calls for the death penalty for anyone at a separatist rally, or possibly his claiming responsibility for killing one separatist & severely wounding another.
It was about that time that Andrey formed his own political party - and charity organization!


He slipped below my radar, then I quit my daily grind of trying to get to the bottom of the Ukrainian thing when the blog I'd been following was totally destroyed. No photo's, no archives, nothing but a huge hole where so much information had been held.
I now have some idea how a patron of the Library at Alexandria must have felt.


If our boy's gone straight, this has to be seen in a positive light. Hope he never moves in with his Canadian son.
Wiki covers most of what I've talked about &
http://russianfreedomforum.lefora.com/topic/18815469/MICHAEL-FLYNN-TRIED-TO-BARGAIN-CRIMEA-WITH-RUSSIANS#.WRNTDIjytPY
may fill in some of the rest.


If anything isn't covered I can't point to any links because something or someone took down a tiny piece of the internet & left very little to mark it's passing.
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #225 on: May 11, 2017, 02:01:43 AM »
The first linked article is entitled: "Was Russia the Real Reason Trump Fired James Comey?"; which, indicates that the only rational reason for Trump to fire Comey at this time is to disrupt the Russiagate investigation:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-was-the-real-reason-for-trump-firing-james-comey/526080/

Extract: "In a combative CNN interview Tuesday night, Trump spokeswoman Kellyanne Conway herself suggested that the Clinton material was mere pretext. “This has nothing to do with the campaign from six months ago,” she told Anderson Cooper. “This has everything to do with the performance of the FBI director since the president has been in the White House.”
Trump himself contradicted the stated rationale, too. “He wasn't doing a good job. Very simply. He was not doing a good job,” the president told pool reporters Wednesday morning, his first non-Twitter comments on the firing.

Some news reports have already directly connected the Russia investigation with Comey’s firing. “Trump had grown angry with the Russia investigation—particularly Comey admitting in front of the Senate that the FBI was investigating his campaign—and that the FBI director wouldn't support his claims that President Barack Obama had tapped his phones in Trump Tower,” Politico’s Josh Dawsey wrote. Michael Schmidt of The New York Times reported that Sessions “had been charged with coming up with reasons to fire” Comey, even though Sessions recused himself from the Russia probe after admitting he failed to disclose a meeting with the Russian ambassador to Congress."


The second article is entitled: "The Latest: Flynn attorney declines to comment on subpoena", which indicates that Trump fired Comey shortly after he learned about the subpoena issued to Flynn.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Intel-chair-says-no-need-for-special-11135709.php
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2017, 02:22:13 AM »
Apropos Watergate, RichardNixonLibrary @NixonLibrary tweets:
Quote
FUN FACT: President Nixon never fired the Director of the FBI
https://mobile.twitter.com/NixonLibrary/status/862083605081862145

... but of course Trump doesn't have a special prosecutor to fire yet

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #227 on: May 11, 2017, 03:27:25 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Comey infuriated Trump with refusal to preview Senate testimony-aides”.  So anybody in government who doesn't do what Trump wants, is by definition not doing “a good job” :o.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/comey-infuriated-trump-with-refusal-to-preview-senate-testimony-aides/ar-BBAZzZX


Extract: “The anger behind Donald Trump's firing of FBI Director James Comey on Tuesday had been building for months, but a turning point came when Comey refused to preview for top Trump aides his planned testimony to a Senate panel, White House officials said.

Trump, Attorney General Jeff Sessions and deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein had wanted a heads-up from Comey about what he would say at a May 3 hearing about his handling of an investigation into former Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.”

When Comey refused, Trump and his aides considered that an act of insubordination and it was one of the catalysts to Trump’s decision this week to fire the FBI director, the officials said.”
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #228 on: May 11, 2017, 10:28:50 AM »
Here is a comment that was posted in the wrong thread:

On April 28 Archimid makes a very important statement. Here it is:
“I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition.”
This is at the heart of the disagreements people have with Terry regarding Russia. If you can’t see the bigger picture with Russia you don’t have a context to evaluate Russiagate from start to finish.
   I feel like I have something to offer regarding how Russia is covered in the media since I am married to a Russian from Crimea and my wife’s mother lives in Crimea now. For 15 years I criticized my wife for refusing to understand the things that were happening regarding wars that touched on Russia and Eastern Europe, Middle East etc. Sometimes we reached the point where we could not talk about world events. My understanding came from “the news I read”. So after telling her I was right for 15 years Crimea annexation comes along and I get two sources of information: “the news” and what my mother could see out the window and on the streets of Yalta. After seeing Crimea with eyes un-blinded by the news, I saw the war in the Eastern Oblasts of Ukraine very differently. After seeing Ukraine with personal knowledge I could see through the incredible falsehoods that we are told in the news regarding Syria. So I had to apologize to my wife for being wrong all of these years. I trusted the news and found that the news was untrustworthy.
   Many people have said lots of bad things about TerryM on this thread.  Terry I would like to apologize in behalf of these people since most of them, like myself, will untimely come to see that we simply can’t trust what we are told regarding anything Russian. So I am convinced that Terry is right because I talked to people in places of conflict that had personal experience outside the news, and trusted personal witness over news. So Buddy, Mati, and many others if you would like to talk to my wife or her mother let me know since they are voices of truth in a sea of lies. I think that the only way you can see what is happening in the world is to have input outside ‘what you read in the news’.
   Most people who understand climate have come to distrust media with regards to this one topic and wonder why the media can’t get it right. I differ with many of you in that not only do I not trust media for climate, I do not trust media for much of anything else. I now believe that the people who intentionally deceive on climate deceive us in nearly every other way. I ask you to please look beyond what you are told and fortify it with personal voices of truth.

I also know a couple from the Ukraine and they get so angry at how mainstream media is portraying Putin and Russia. They have constant arguments with friends and relatives who only repeat what they've seen in the news. Now, I think they are a bit too positive about Putin, and told them as much ('that the media sucks and Putin is a moneygrabbing asshole are not mutually exclusive'), but I found what they told me rather convincing.

But I don't know enough about the details to give some real push-back. All I know is that if we polarize on a nationalistic level (USA vs USSR), things could get really ugly. If we are going to polarize, we need to polarize as follows: All people of good faith, whatever their race, age, religion, nationality, etc vs a system where oligarch money becomes like The Blob.

It's not us against the Russians, it's us and the Russians against Big Money.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #229 on: May 11, 2017, 10:32:44 AM »
Small addendum: The problem I have with some people here in these political threads (not with who they are, but with what they say), is that in my perception they too easily repeat mainstream media narratives. And I just don't trust anything coming out of mainstream media (especially if the CIA, FBI or Pentagon have something to do with it). Maybe that's not good either!  :D :P
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #230 on: May 11, 2017, 01:04:06 PM »
The sources I use....are days or WEEKS ahead of any "mainstream media."  People need to be careful NOT to take ANY INFORMATION without corroboration.  That goes for "mainstream media"...as well as Jimmy Dore or ANYONE ELSE.  In addition....people need to understand, and be able to "read" and understand BASIC human psychology and history.  History rhymes.  And the reason it rhymes....is because HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY DOESN'T CHANGE.  Anyone who doesn't have a good grasp of human psychology AND history...didn't see this coming.

For instance......does any "normal Republican in the Republican party....during the writing of the party platform....support a pro-Russia stance (back in July/August of 2016)? ABSOLUTELY NOT.  UNTHINKABLE.  And during this time period....there was a backdrop of months where Donnie was in his "bromance" period with Putin (which is UNTHINKABLE...and mainstream media as well as others reported as such).  AND....Donnie said he had absolutely NOTHING to do with input into the Republican party platform (as did Manafort...which I knew was a lie).

Anyone who knows ANYTHING about the Republican party.....knows that a pro-Russian stance on the party platform DURING A PERIOD OF RUSSIAN AGRESSION IN UKRAINE....is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD. IMPOSSIBLE....without "something" going on under the table.  Also note...at the time there were reports of Manafort reports of Russian relationships.

This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.  This is "humanity 101" plus journalism.  This thing was SO EASY TO SEE IT IS INCREDIBLE that Donnie even thought he would get away with this.

Of course....someone like Jimmy Dore is just finding out that he missed the biggest political story of the last 200 years.....may be having some second thoughts about RussiaGate. ;)

As well....it helps to understand Donnie's "psychology" as well.  If you look all the lies he told ALL ALONG....you KNEW he was capable of doing ANYTHING....AND LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING/b].

All it took was people who look at things with an understanding of basic human psychology..... students of history.....and people with a skeptical eye.  That is all.

 
 



« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 04:27:55 AM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #231 on: May 11, 2017, 01:36:07 PM »
1)  OK....this thread needs a dose of humor:

2)  Who wants Spicey's job over the coming days/weeks/months?  You don't think there will be a Saturday Night Live skit with Spicey hiding in the bushes do you?

3)  We are speeding towards a special prosecutor.....no matter WHAT Mitch McConnell says.  It's just a matter of time.  Too many people that will need to be prosecuted....



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #232 on: May 11, 2017, 03:41:56 PM »
So....where do we stand?

1)  Looks like Donnie is "all in".  Expect the lies to continue.  As noted before....when all is said and done, there likely will be SEVERAL articles of impeachment.

2) Jeff Sessions looks to be "all in" as well.  I noted a few weeks ago that I thought he would be "toast" by now.  Certainly got the timing wrong....but he is "toast in waiting."  I'm not sure what the Senate's roll COULD be in getting rid of Sessions.  This one will be interesting to watch over coming weeks.  Sessions is rotten to the core...and always has been.  He was a PERFECT Donnie hire....because he, like Donnie, has ABSOLUTELY NO ETIICS.  And that is the type of person Donnie hired (except for his military hires).

3)  How CRAZY will Donnie get over the coming weeks/months?  Will he issue some crazy...over-reaching executive orders?  Will he actually try to nominate a buddy like Rudy Giuliani for FBI Director (and will enough Republicans buy in)?

4) Donnie meeting with the Russians in the oval office.....with the Russian press (TASS) and WITHOUT ANY US PRESS, was pretty damn crazy.  Incredible in fact.  Again...we don't know just how crazy Donnie is....but we KNOW it is "off the charts"....we just don't know HOW off the charts he is.  I will be keeping my eyes on McMaster and Mattis (National Security Advisor and Secretary of Defense).  Those appear to be the only adults in the room with ethics.....and they SURELY have to be monitoring Donnie's moves and hopefully keep him from going TOTALLY ROGUE.

5)  Look for more and more news about Donnie's business dealings to be coming out in the days and weeks ahead in the media.  That should provide some "meat on the bone" for people to chew on.

The process continues.......
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #233 on: May 11, 2017, 03:59:25 PM »
On April 28 Archimid makes a very important statement. Here it is:
“I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition.”
This is at the heart of the disagreements people have with Terry regarding Russia. If you can’t see the bigger picture with Russia you don’t have a context to evaluate Russiagate from start to finish.
   I feel like I have something to offer regarding how Russia is covered in the media since I am married to a Russian from Crimea and my wife’s mother lives in Crimea now. For 15 years I criticized my wife for refusing to understand the things that were happening regarding wars that touched on Russia and Eastern Europe, Middle East etc. Sometimes we reached the point where we could not talk about world events. My understanding came from “the news I read”. So after telling her I was right for 15 years Crimea annexation comes along and I get two sources of information: “the news” and what my mother could see out the window and on the streets of Yalta. After seeing Crimea with eyes un-blinded by the news, I saw the war in the Eastern Oblasts of Ukraine very differently. After seeing Ukraine with personal knowledge I could see through the incredible falsehoods that we are told in the news regarding Syria. So I had to apologize to my wife for being wrong all of these years. I trusted the news and found that the news was untrustworthy.
   Many people have said lots of bad things about TerryM on this thread.  Terry I would like to apologize in behalf of these people since most of them, like myself, will untimely come to see that we simply can’t trust what we are told regarding anything Russian. So I am convinced that Terry is right because I talked to people in places of conflict that had personal experience outside the news, and trusted personal witness over news. So Buddy, Mati, and many others if you would like to talk to my wife or her mother let me know since they are voices of truth in a sea of lies. I think that the only way you can see what is happening in the world is to have input outside ‘what you read in the news’.
   Most people who understand climate have come to distrust media with regards to this one topic and wonder why the media can’t get it right. I differ with many of you in that not only do I not trust media for climate, I do not trust media for much of anything else. I now believe that the people who intentionally deceive on climate deceive us in nearly every other way. I ask you to please look beyond what you are told and fortify it with personal voices of truth.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #234 on: May 11, 2017, 04:01:40 PM »
I accidentally opened a new thread for Russiagate. O have copied "H2O World's" comment in the new thread and will try to close the thread.

I hear you Charles it seems some of us have woken up to the fact that we were born into captivity but for those of us that understand this seem fated with being lonely observers, (thank goodness this forum exists!) the information age is the new paradox.
I think I hear the death rattles of our consumer culture breathing its last breath. Politics and religion are the useful tools of homo Sapien who have a lust for ownership, rule and power and I claim it does NOT work it NEVER has worked and it WON'T ever work. I believe science and spirituality is the new paradigm we must adopt if we are to survive into the future, alas it looks like it will not come to past. “We build too many walls and not enough bridges” Isaac Newton
Nature is not the man made construct that is culture. To move away from the current cultural paradigm into a true age of reason would mean you "Take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”

NBC mimics New York Times, hires prominent climate misinformer
https://thinkprogress.org/nbc-hires-climate-misinformer-george-will-af952161dcdc

I don’t know if this is the correct forum for my comment so feel free to do what you need to do.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #235 on: May 11, 2017, 05:13:53 PM »
Small addendum: The problem I have with some people here in these political threads (not with who they are, but with what they say), is that in my perception they too easily repeat mainstream media narratives. And I just don't trust anything coming out of mainstream media (especially if the CIA, FBI or Pentagon have something to do with it). Maybe that's not good either!  :D :P

Neven,
Please remember that there is an on-going criminal investigation, and that during such an investigation all new information should be both questioned and evaluated in the context of all the other fragments of information.

Best,
ASLR

And in this regards, the linked article is entitled: "Why Is Trump So Angry?"; which indicates that one should consider Trump's pattern of behavior throughout his career, campaign and administration.

http://redux.slate.com/cover-stories/2017/05/trumps-rage-powers-his-ruthlessness-and-his-ineptitude.html

Extract: "So here we are. It beggars belief that the White House would sack Comey for any reason other than to thwart the Russia probe (or maybe to punish a parvenu given excessive credit for Trump’s victory). To pretend otherwise, as Michelle Goldberg observed, to think we would actually believe Trump fired Comey for being unfair to the woman he calls “Crooked Hillary,” is deeply stupid. The frantic violence of the president’s feelings—anything to sweep the Kremlin back under the rug—has produced what is surely one of the all-time great mindfucks in American history.

The problem with a doctrine of wrath—in the presidency as in other walks of life—is that the rationale so clear to the boiling brain can appear ridiculous to the outside observer. The administration’s babbling excuses have a knee-jerk quality; it’s as if the president so desired to disappear his Putin problem that he was willing to embrace whatever absurd explanation came to hand (and then became surprised—and angry all over again—when we didn’t fall for it). Don’t look at Russia! our commander in chief shouts in fury, and of course our gaze stays fixed on Moscow. Such transparent terror is contagious: Republican senators this week tried to make the Trump–Russia hearings about the travel ban, leaks, and Clinton’s emails—anything but Trump and Russia. After a certain point, this is no longer strategy. It is reflex. It is a child covering his eyes to make the loathsome object in front of him vanish. Trump may be a politician, but he is also a man consumed with desperate, narcissistic rage. Easing that pain will always be his primary goal."

See also the linked following article entitled: "White House furious after being trolled with Russia Oval Office photos", and associated images that Trump is furious about:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/oval-office-photos-donald-trump-russians/

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2017, 06:34:36 PM »

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #230 on: Today at 01:04:06 PM »

Quote
The sources I use....are days or WEEKS ahead of any "mainstream media." 

Buddy, how can your news sources know WEEKS ahead of the mainstream media?

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2017, 07:47:17 PM »
Quote
Buddy, how can your news sources know WEEKS ahead of the mainstream media?

BudM

There are a FEW SOURCES that are "weeks ahead" of mainstream media.  Generally....and to their credit by the way.....the mainstream media is VERY CAUTIOUS....and gets MORE CORROBORATION than other sources.  And I think they "should"....by the way.  So the mainstream media errs on the side of caution.

BUT....if you look at some of the sources "out there"....+....a knowledge of basic human psychology....+.....a knowledge of history:  Then you can figure out some of the things that are GOING TO HAPPEN or that already HAVE HAPPEND (but haven't been reported in the mainstream media).  If you've observed "things" in the past....it helps.

Again....this is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.  Nor am I some "savant" (I'm definitely NOT).  But I AM...a good "observer."  A good CPA is a good observer....we have some of that already drilled into us.  Maybe it is just something I happen to do well...which is countered by many things I DON'T DO WELL. :-[

Here is my list of how people/organizations either lead or follow the crowd:

1)  Hard core investigation....+....knowledge and observance as to how that investigation fits into the facts and circumstances that are observed....and this requires looking AT ALL THE DOTS and understanding EARLIER THAN OTHERS....how they are fitting together.

2)  Main stream media.....when the reports from #1 above become more numerous....then mainstream media joins the fray.

3)  Public.....over time....sometimes much longer than it should take (much of this based on psychology of people not wanting to be wrong....or people not wanting to ADMIT they are wrong)....then the public is brought along....reluctantly (which is why the polls have moved so slowly).  I noted probably a few weeks ago that I thought the polls would go down SLOWLY.  I expect that to continue.....into NEXT YEARSLOWLY.  We're down to 38% approval which is still 3% above Donnie's all time low of 35%.  We'll go below that level....and we may pick up a little steam this week as things continue to "unwind."

NOTE:  Some people still have a land line.  STILL. ;)  We humans don't change quickly.....  Again...psychology.  Psychology permeates EVERYTHING we do...whether we know it or not.  Powerful stuff.  And very useful in business as well as government....as well as public policy including economic policy.

4)  Government.  Yes....good ole' government.  The PUBLIC needs to lead the government to act....which is why Donnie's polling numbers are so important.  Especially with the Senate and House being controlled by the Republicans.  Remember.....most of us KNOW Donnie is guilty...but that is NOT enough.  He has to be VOTED GUILTY in the House and Senate.  If the polls don't get there....he won't be found guilty.
 
5)  FOX News:  Somebody has to be last...... ;)






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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2017, 08:46:17 PM »
Buddy


BudM points out that news sources that are days or weeks ahead of MSM are reporting on events that haven't yet occurred.
I'd like to point out that being the first source of a story is not equivalent to being the most accurate source.


You are again hopeful that Trump will be impeached. Why?


If President Pence has the awesome powers of the presidency thrust upon his broad shoulders, he will take up the mantle knowing he enjoys the full confidence of the Republican Party, and the grudging respect of the Quislings in the Democratic Party that enabled his promotion.


Pence was chosen as Trump's VP because his positions were far to the right of his running mate's. The ticket needed to protect itself from attacks by the right. Those unsure of Trump's far right pedigree needed the assurance that only Pence or Attila the Hun could supply.


Pence will be a strong president. His stature, after saving his nation and his world from the Trumpmonster will be as tall as that of George the Dragonslayer. None will stay his hand. None will dare to cross his shadow.


His policies will mimic Trump's, but with a far harder edge. No more mollycoddling the traitorous lot that preach sedition by claiming that the globe is warming. They won't be fired, they'll end their lives preaching to the rats that infest their sweltering cells in the new Super Max Security Wing of the Private Pence Penal Prison Factory & Re- Education Facility.
Our Northern as well as the Southern Border Walls will be built by Prison Labor Gangs, and the guntowers will face inward. No one will want in, and no one will be allowed out.


In 2027 the now 100% Republican Supreme Court may find that the 2 full term restriction is inapplicable to presidents that were initially thrust into their role, and that the Pence Presidency no longer requires an election to confirm it's obvious legitimacy.


The above was a flight of fantasy. Everyone knows that Pence will become the beloved Statesman that this country has needed so desperately since our beloved Nixon was so callously brought down by treasonous liberals. After pardoning Trump et al for all crimes real or imaginary that he or his may or may not have committed. Pence will get right to work by bombing the poor people of North Korea, thus saving them from the hellish lives they had been living.
Nevil Shute may have written the epilogue.


Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #239 on: May 11, 2017, 09:36:17 PM »
Terry,
Ne

As you know very well Nevil Shute did write the epilogue. I read "on the beach" as a teenager just after the cuba missile crisis. Living only 60 kms from London my parents only discussed how we were going to die -  quick or slow. And then we had Dr Strangelove.

All we need now is for Dr Strangelove to become part of the Trump team to finish the job.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #240 on: May 11, 2017, 09:36:46 PM »
Quote
You are again hopeful that Trump will be impeached. Why?

It is not that I "hope" he will be impeached.  It is because I THINK he will be impeached.  Two very different things.  I NEVER bet on hope.

Quote
If President Pence has the awesome powers of the presidency thrust upon his broad shoulders, he will take up the mantle knowing he enjoys the full confidence of the Republican Party, and the grudging respect of the Quislings in the Democratic Party that enabled his promotion.

Sorry....he will likely be gone as well.  Really. 8)

Quote
Pence will be a strong president. His stature, after saving his nation and his world from the Trumpmonster will be as tall as that of George the Dragonslayer. None will stay his hand. None will dare to cross his shadow.

Really?  You're serious?  Someone who would have lost the race for the governor of....ah hum....INDIANA...."none will stay his hand."  Surely you jest.

I think you and I need to quit answering each other.  Clearly....we are in different orbits.  Likely different galaxy's.  Instead of talking "past each other".....we probably should agree that we will never agree....and save time and energy for BOTH OF US.

You think there is "nothing there" (per your quote) with the RussiaGate investigation....and we'll just leave it there...OK?

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2017, 04:00:02 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “In a Private Dinner, Trump Demanded Loyalty. Comey Demurred”; who are you going to believe “Self-Serving Trump” or Comey?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html?_r=0


Extract: “Only seven days after Donald J. Trump was sworn in as president, James B. Comey has told associates, the F.B.I. director was summoned to the White House for a one-on-one dinner with the new commander in chief.

The conversation that night in January, Mr. Comey now believes, was a harbinger of his downfall this week as head of the F.B.I., according to two people who have heard his account of the dinner.

As they ate, the president and Mr. Comey made small talk about the election and the crowd sizes at Mr. Trump’s rallies. The president then turned the conversation to whether Mr. Comey would pledge his loyalty to him.

Mr. Comey declined to make that pledge. Instead, Mr. Comey has recounted to others, he told Mr. Trump that he would always be honest with him, but that he was not “reliable” in the conventional political sense.

The White House says this account is not correct.   And Mr. Trump, in an interview on Thursday with NBC, described a far different dinner conversation with Mr. Comey in which the director asked to have the meeting and the question of loyalty never came up."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2017, 04:17:20 AM »
Trump was right about something. He could indeed shoot someone on the middle of the street and not lose voters. They are blind.



Anyone following the climate change debate is already very familiar with this phenomenon. Anyone who has lived in a repressive regime is also familiar with this phenomenon.

I really wish I was wrong about Russiagate, but how can I possibly ignore all the evidence that keeps presenting itself? Its like climate change. The evidence just keeps piling up.

As a preventive argument: I would love nothing more than much closer relations with Russia, so long as those relations are about stopping climate change and defending human rights of all people.  However the association I see is one for massive oil drilling, climate change denial and xenophobia. I'm not interested in that at all.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2017, 04:36:49 AM »
The linked article is entitled: “Did Trump just admit to obstruction of justice?”, it looks like obstruction of justice to me.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/did-trump-just-admit-to-obstruction-of-justice/

Extract: “In Lester Holt’s interview with President Donald Trump on NBC Nightly News that aired earlier tonight, the president defended his sacking of FBI director James Comey and, in a possible gaffe, seems to have admitted that he fired Comey in part because of the agency’s ongoing investigation into the Trump campaign’s collusion with the Russian government.
“I was going to fire Comey,” Trump said defiantly. “When I decided to just do it, I said to myself, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story.'””
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2017, 04:47:52 AM »
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2017, 05:07:56 AM »
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry

It seems most modern societies are becoming more xenophobic, including Russia.  From:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra

"In 2013, migration became the key topic of the Moscow mayoral elections. In an unusual conjuncture, all the candidates actively employed anti-immigrant rhetoric — Sergei Sobyanin, the incumbent mayor, who enjoyed support from the government; darling of the liberal opposition Alexey Navalny; and Communist Party candidate Ivan Melnikov. This rhetorical contest was ultimately won by Sobyanin as he was the only one able to put his words into action. On the eve of the elections, Sobyanin authorised the roundups of illegal migrants en masse, and ordered the construction of a “concentration camp” for people about to be deported on the outskirts of Moscow.

In Russia, xenophobia has long ago become an efficient tool of manipulating the public in the hands of the government."

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2017, 05:39:36 AM »
Will the Dems start doing some serious (if dirty) backfighting the GOP?

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/332840-pelosi-threatens-to-force-vote-on-outside-russia-probe
Quote
Pelosi threatens to force vote on outside Russia probe

House Democrats are eyeing plans to force a vote on the creation of an independent panel to investigate President Trump’s ties to Russia following the dismissal of FBI Director James Comey this week.
 
Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Wednesday urged GOP leaders to bring the legislation to the floor next week when Congress returns to Washington following a recess. If they decline, as expected, Democrats will try to force a vote with a discharge petition.
 
“Speaker [Paul] Ryan [R-Wis.] must call up this legislation immediately upon our return next week,” Pelosi wrote Wednesday in a letter to the members of her caucus. “If Republicans continue to work to hide the truth from the American people, it will be necessary for Democrats to file a discharge petition to force a vote on the [legislation].”
...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discharge_petition
Quote
In United States parliamentary procedure, a discharge petition is a means of bringing a bill out of committee and to the floor for consideration without a report from the committee by "discharging" the committee from further consideration of a bill or resolution.

...
In 1993, the procedure was changed to make every step of the process public, with signers published in the Congressional Record. This change was spearheaded by then–Rep. Jim Inhofe (R–Oklahoma).
...

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2017, 05:58:28 AM »

Terry,
All we need now is for Dr Strangelove to become part of the Trump team to finish the job.

"Mein Fuhrer, I can walk!

BudM

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2017, 06:28:36 AM »
Terry:

In regards to your reply #238, you paint a bleak picture of a Pence presidency, and to think constitutionally he could be president for as long as ten years, depending on timing! The biggest concern I have of a Pence presidency is he would be exactly what the Republican majority in both houses would want in the oval office.

Even if Trump is impeached, President Pence would have a difficult time getting re-elected in 2020 because he has been with Trump from the beginning. Most of us will remember all the pictures of Trump with Pence at his right hand, applauding his ridiculous executive orders, etc. I don't understand how even a conservative Republican with an ounce of integrity can continually support a narcissist and egomaniac like Trump.

Pence is a follower, not a leader and he also lacks charisma. Lastly, I think the Republicans will likely lose the House in 2018 and possibly the Senate in 2020. Perhaps the only way Trump should be impeached is if his "high crimes" become particularly egregious. In the meantime, the Republican majorities and Trump are possibly the best thing to reinvigorate the progressives and to change the Democratic party for the better.

BudM


TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #249 on: May 12, 2017, 06:31:51 AM »
Archimid
I'm not understanding the xenophobia you mention. Russia prides itself on being a multicultural society.
What am I missing?
Terry

It seems most modern societies are becoming more xenophobic, including Russia.  From:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/denys-gorbach-ilya-budraitskis/dreams-of-europe-refugees-and-xenophobia-in-russia-and-ukra

"In 2013, migration became the key topic of the Moscow mayoral elections. In an unusual conjuncture, all the candidates actively employed anti-immigrant rhetoric — Sergei Sobyanin, the incumbent mayor, who enjoyed support from the government; darling of the liberal opposition Alexey Navalny; and Communist Party candidate Ivan Melnikov. This rhetorical contest was ultimately won by Sobyanin as he was the only one able to put his words into action. On the eve of the elections, Sobyanin authorised the roundups of illegal migrants en masse, and ordered the construction of a “concentration camp” for people about to be deported on the outskirts of Moscow.

In Russia, xenophobia has long ago become an efficient tool of manipulating the public in the hands of the government."


I wasn't arguing that Ukraine wasn't a xenophobic hell hole - I usually refer to their leaders as Neo - Nazis. The anti-Putin forces in Russia certainly try using xenophobia to attack Putin's multi-ethnic government, but usually with very little success. The 2nd place finisher in the Moscow election you reference campaigned crying


“Do you want your kids to go to schools where no one speaks Russian?”

as well as other nationalistic rhetoric. He did stun the experts by pulling in over 27% in that vote. This is the same man that recently held a rally at rush hour in front of Moscow's main transportation hub - then wondered why the police broke up the event.


Russia plays host to ~1.5M refugees, with very little backlash.
Canada also prides itself as a multicultural society, and occasionally some firebrand tries to stir things up. Usually with little success.
Terry