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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2450 on: January 27, 2018, 11:09:04 PM »
It seems that Mueller can't file an indictment against Trump without the OK of his boss (currently Rosenstein, but maybe it'll be, god-forbid, Pruitt soon).

However, I'm pretty sure a Grand Jury could do so without having to get anyone's OK.  In legal theory, Mueller serves the direction of the GJ, even if, in practice, they tend to operate the opposite way. 

Then the Supreme Court would surely be asked if a grand jury can indict a sitting president.  I'm optimistic they'd say yes.

If Pruitt (or his ilk) becomes AG, and assumes the lead of the investigation, he might try to block Mueller from leading the grand jury to issue an indictment against Trump (unless the GJ already has issues such a sealed indictment and Mueller just hasn't made it public yet), and Pruitt (or his ilk) might also try to block Mueller from reporting to Congress and recommending that the House impeach Trump):

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/how-does-a-grand-jury-work.html

Extract: "Grand juries do not need a unanimous decision from all members to indict, but it does need a supermajority of 2/3 or 3/4 agreement for an indictment (depending on the jurisdiction). Even though a grand jury may not choose to indict, a prosecutor may still bring the defendant to trial if she thinks she has a strong enough case. However, the grand jury proceedings are often a valuable test run for prosecutors in making the decision to bring the case.

If the grand jury chooses to indict, the trial will most likely begin faster. Without a grand jury indictment, the prosecutor has to demonstrate to the trial judge that she has enough evidence to continue with the case. However, with a grand jury indictment, the prosecutor can skip that step and proceed directly to trial."

Edit, see also:

Title: "Trump’s attempt to fire Robert Mueller, explained"

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/26/16934868/trump-fire-mueller-don-mcgahn

Extract: "And though it’s clear that Trump’s conduct is wildly inappropriate according to decades of recent norms about how the president should interact with the Justice Department, legal experts are divided on just how damning the known evidence against Trump on obstruction of justice seems to be.

Then if Mueller and Rosenstein conclude there is a case, they would have to decide whether to take the legally dubious and controversial route of indicting a sitting president (which the Justice Department has long said cannot be done), or whether to report their findings to Congress with an eye toward potential impeachment."


« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:21:38 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2451 on: January 28, 2018, 12:03:11 AM »
Trump clearly thinks that he can enlist anyone to help him obstruct justice:

Title: "Trump sought release of classified Russia memo, putting him at odds with Justice Department"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-sought-release-of-classified-russia-memo-putting-him-at-odds-with-justice-department/2018/01/27/a00f2a4c-02bb-11e8-9d31-d72cf78dbeee_story.html?__twitter_impression=true&utm_term=.14535813879e

Extract: "On Wednesday, as Republicans were clamoring to make public a secret document that they think will undercut the investigation into Russian meddling, President Trump made clear his desire: release the memo.

Trump’s directive was at odds with his own Justice Department, which had warned that releasing the classified memo written by congressional Republicans would be “extraordinarily reckless” without an official review. Nevertheless, White House chief of staff John F. Kelly relayed the president’s view to Attorney General Jeff Sessions — though the decision to release the document ultimately lies with Congress."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2452 on: January 28, 2018, 04:54:53 PM »
When will the indictments drop for Donnie Jr and Jerod?  THAT is what has my small brain doing overtime.  Is Mueller dying to bait Donnie into a sit down pow wow with him BEFORE he goes after his family?  Very possible...
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2453 on: January 28, 2018, 05:17:01 PM »
When will the indictments drop for Donnie Jr and Jerod?  THAT is what has my small brain doing overtime.  Is Mueller dying to bait Donnie into a sit down pow wow with him BEFORE he goes after his family?  Very possible...

Maybe. But I think it's more likely that Mueller is getting all his ducks into a row, for if/when indictments land upon Trump's immediate family, Trump is almost certain to react by firing Mueller/Rosenstein/whoever, claiming that he's protecting his kids--and I can already see the complicit GOP/media nodding along.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2454 on: January 28, 2018, 08:06:55 PM »
Last summer Sessions issued new DOJ guidelines that may make it easier for Mueller to seize Trump's assets, if he can produce evidence of Trump's participation in say money laundering.  This could help to bankrupt Trump's organized crime activities:

Title: "Attorney General Sessions Issues Policy and Guidelines on Federal Adoptions of Assets Seized by State or Local Law Enforcement"

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-sessions-issues-policy-and-guidelines-federal-adoptions-assets-seized-state

Extract: "“And so today, the Department of Justice is issuing legal guidance that will clarify DOJ policy on the adoption of seized assets. It will return us to longstanding DOJ policy—and also provide additional, supplemental protections for law-abiding Americans. This will make us more effective at bankrupting organized criminals and at safeguarding the property of law-abiding Americans.""
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2455 on: January 28, 2018, 08:27:35 PM »
Will Trump go against Congressional will by not imposing new sanctions on Russia on Monday?  We may find out tomorrow:

Title: "Deadline looms for Trump and Russia sanctions"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/28/trump-russia-sanctions-deadline-373106

Extract: "The president has until Monday to implement stiff penalties targeting the Kremlin — and lawmakers aren’t sure he’ll comply on time.
...
An even more critical moment arrives Monday. The Treasury Department is required to begin imposing sanctions against entities doing business with Russia’s defense and intelligence sectors as well as to produce a hotly anticipated list of oligarchs maintaining close ties to Putin. Implementing the law robustly would risk harming the relationship Trump has tried to cultivate with Putin — and any delay would mean snubbing Congress’ authority."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2456 on: January 28, 2018, 08:31:56 PM »
Jim:

Quote
Maybe. But I think it's more likely that Mueller is getting all his ducks into a row, for if/when indictments land upon Trump's immediate family, Trump is almost certain to react by firing Mueller/Rosenstein/whoever, claiming that he's protecting his kids--and I can already see the complicit GOP/media nodding along.

I'm sure he is certainly getting his ducks in a row.  But my thinking is, EVEN IF HE HAD ALL HIS DUCKS in a row.....he may not indict them UNTIL AFTER he has the "opportunity" to interview Moron Don.  In other words..... I wonder if Mueller is thinking, "I don't want to do ANYTHING to damage the opportunity/chance that Moron would actually sit down and answer Muellers questions.

Donnie is certainly "full of himself"......to use his words, "one of the smartest people around".  And there is a LOT of things that Mueller would love to interview Donnie about.

And I agree with you....once Mueller pulls the trigger on Donnie Jr or Jerrod....Donnie is going to be one very pissed daddy.  I would give my right arm to be in Donnies office when THAT happens.

Will Donnie actually go through with the interview?  My money says NO...but it is CERTAINLY not a slam dunk either way.  Donnie has stated before that he can do ANYTHING and his backers won't leave him.  He may think he can get away with the 5th amendment route....so why interview?  He's also so full of himself he may think he can snow Mueller.   ::)

Next few months should provide some answers one way or the other.

 
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2457 on: January 29, 2018, 12:36:34 AM »
As Mueller can easily gobtain McGahn's testimony that Trump ordered him to get Mueller fired, it would appear that we could well one 'blue wave' away from getting Trump impeached (if not removed from office):

Title: "Grounds for impeachment if Trump lied about trying to fire Muller - Ken Starr"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/grounds-for-impeachment-if-trump-lied-about-trying-to-fire-mueller-–-ken-starr/ar-BBIluVr?li=AA5a8k&ocid=spartandhp

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Clare

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2458 on: January 29, 2018, 02:38:36 AM »
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/100922590/ive-watched-donald-trump-testify-it-isnt-pretty

"Speaking from experience, I think the president's attorneys should grab their worry beads. Trump sued me for libel in 2006 for a biography I wrote, TrumpNation, alleging that the book misrepresented his business record and understated his wealth, a suit he lost in 2011."

Opinion piece originally from the Washing Post.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2459 on: January 29, 2018, 04:37:54 PM »
Russiagate isn't going away anytime soon (even after Mueller interviews Trump):

Title: "Mark Warner: ‘We’ve Had New Information That Raises More Questions’"

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/29/mark-warner-global-politico-216545

Extract: "Congress late last year received “extraordinarily important new documents” in its investigation of President Donald Trump and his campaign’s possible collusion with the 2016 Russian election hacking, opening up significant new lines of inquiry in the Senate Intelligence Committee’s probe of the president, Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) says in an exclusive new interview."

Warner, the intel committee’s top Democrat, says “end-of-the-year document dumps” produced “very significant” revelations that “opened a lot of new questions” that Senate investigators are now looking into, meaning the inquiry into Trump and the Russia hacking—already nearly a year old—will not be finished for months longer. “We’ve had new information that raises more questions,” Warner says in the interview, an extensive briefing on the state of the Senate’s Trump-Russia probe for The Global Politico, our weekly podcast on world affairs."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2460 on: January 29, 2018, 04:56:56 PM »
ASLR
Isn't it time for some answers, rather than assurances that there are more questions?
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2461 on: January 29, 2018, 05:15:16 PM »
ASLR
Isn't it time for some answers, rather than assurances that there are more questions?
Terry

No.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2462 on: January 29, 2018, 05:49:13 PM »
If Devin Nunes orchestrates the release of a memo attacking Rosenstein, I believe that both he and The Donald will live to regret it:

Title: "House Intel schedules business meeting as expectations for vote on secret memo grow"

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/371180-house-intel-schedules-business-meeting-as-expectations-for-vote-on

Edit, see also:

Title: "Report: Secret Memo Shows Rosenstein OK’d Carter Page Surveillance"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-secret-memo-shows-rosenstein-okd-carter-page-surveillance?ref=home

Edit, see also:

Title: "Here’s what’s actually in the Justice Department memo that Republicans claim is so shocking"

https://thinkprogress.org/shocking-memo-not-so-shocking-5615da89165e/

Extract: "The memo is reportedly filled with cherry-picked facts meant to paint the Justice Department in a nefarious light."
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 08:54:04 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2463 on: January 29, 2018, 06:12:43 PM »
ASLR
Isn't it time for some answers, rather than assurances that there are more questions?
Terry

No.


Question, but never verify!
It has a nice ring to it. - or not.


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2464 on: January 29, 2018, 06:47:01 PM »
Question, but never verify!
It has a nice ring to it. - or not.


Terry

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“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2465 on: January 29, 2018, 06:49:56 PM »
"Birds of a feather flock together"

Title: "Trump Tower Russian Lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, Exposed in Swiss Corruption Case"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-tower-russian-lawyer-natalia-veselnitskaya-exposed-in-swiss-corruption-case?ref=home

Extract: "Natalia Veselnitskaya, who organized the notorious Trump Tower meeting, has been named in an explosive Swiss court case about bribery, corruption, and double-agents."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2466 on: January 29, 2018, 07:19:43 PM »
Talk about witness tampering!  McCabe is a material witness to the details of the Comey firing.

Title: "Andrew McCabe, FBI deputy director, quits after Trump criticism"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42865202

Extract: "The Federal Bureau of Investigation's deputy director, whom US President Donald Trump accused of political bias, has resigned.

Andrew McCabe was forced to step down ahead of his official retirement date in March, reports CBS News.

His exit from the top law enforcement agency comes a week after a report that Mr Trump wanted him out.

It was also reported last week that the president had asked Mr McCabe during an Oval Office meeting whom he voted for."

Edit: Don't forget that Rosenstein, Comey and McCabe are all witnesses in Mueller case against Trump for obstruction of justice, and thus intimidating them is illegal.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 08:26:25 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2467 on: January 29, 2018, 09:21:18 PM »
The inestimable FBI, apparently while under the leadership of "Honest Andy McCabe" has determined that the founding editor of Russian Times (RT) had beaten himself to death in his Washington hotel room.


http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/breaking-fbi-releases-docs-claiming-rt-founder-beat-himself-to-death-in-his-hotel-room_01272018

Thank FSM for the integrity of the Nation's Preeminent Police Force.
Terry
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2468 on: January 29, 2018, 10:20:32 PM »
While Democrats are leading in the congressional polls, the real question is whether the lead is sufficient to overcome the gerrymandering used by the Republicans to undermine our democracy.  If the Democrats don't at least capture the House in the 2018 midterm elections, then the chances of impeaching Trump drop dramatically:

Title: "Are Democrats/Republicans Winning The Race For Congress?"

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-generic-ballot-polls/
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2469 on: January 29, 2018, 11:03:48 PM »
Did Giuliani, Prince and Trump conspire with FBI members of the New York office to blackmail Comey and McCabe into re-opening the FBI's Hillary Clinton email probe by leaking information to the Pro-Trump 'True Pundit' website?  If so then both Mueller and the DOJ's Inspector General Michael Horowitz should investigate this matter more closely:

Title: "Democrats seek alleged evidence of anti-Clinton 'bias' at the FBI"

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/11/democrast-anti-clinton-bias-fbi-290475

Extract: ""The facts point to a coordinated effort by some in the FBI to change the course of the Clinton investigation by leaking sensitive information to the public," write Reps. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), the senior Democrats on the House's judiciary and oversight committees.

The Democratic letter is a clear retort to conservative charges of bias against President Donald Trump within the FBI and in the office of special counsel Robert Mueller as both investigate Russia's 2016 election meddling. Democrats fear Trump might use such charges as grounds for firing Mueller.

Amid broader complaints about the Justice Department's interactions with Congressional Democrats, the letter from Nadler and Cummings specifically focuses on whether articles published last year by the “fringe conspiracy website True Pundit" might suggest anti-Clinton bias at the FBI.

The letter suggests that True Pundit — an anonymously written pro-Trump website — received information from FBI agents frustrated with the agency’s handling of the investigation into Clinton’s use of a private email server. They ask Rosenstein and Attorney General Jeff Sessions whether the information provided to True Pundit may have influenced the FBI’s decision to reopen the Clinton investigation a week before the election."
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 11:15:55 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2470 on: January 29, 2018, 11:16:40 PM »
Kelly is now complicit in Trump's obstruction of justice regarding the Russia investigation:

Title: "On Flight to Davos, Trump Erupted Over DOJ Role in Russia Probe"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-29/on-flight-to-davos-trump-erupted-over-doj-role-in-russia-probe

Extract: "Trump erupted in anger while traveling to Davos after learning that Associate Attorney General Stephen Boyd warned that it would be “extraordinarily reckless” to release a classified memo written by House Republican staffers. The memo outlines alleged misdeeds at the FBI and Justice Department related to the Russia investigation.

Kelly held separate meetings or phone calls with senior Justice Department officials last Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday to convey Trump’s displeasure and lecture them on the White House’s expectations, according to the people. Kelly has taken to ending such conversations with a disclaimer that the White House isn’t expecting officials to do anything illegal or unethical.

After Trump’s strong reaction on Air Force One over the Boyd letter, White House officials, including Kelly, sprang into action again, lashing Justice Department officials Thursday over the decision to send the letter, according to the people."
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:50:12 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2471 on: January 30, 2018, 12:42:44 AM »
Donnie is ratcheting up the corruptness.  Remember... he wants what little Vladi has.  And he will do ANYTHING.  He and his friends will go to prison if the FBI investigation is seen through to completion:

1). Conspiracy
2). Obstruction of justice
3). Abuse of power
4). Money laundering

This is just the short list.  We're heading further into uncharted waters.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2472 on: January 30, 2018, 12:50:49 AM »
Trump loves to play cat and mouse during legal negotiations (including public tweets), while Mueller must maintain a veil of secrecy regarding the negotiations to interview Trump.  It is my opinion that the best way to treat a bully (i.e. Trump and/or his lawyer) is to bloody his/their nose with a subpoena, unless he/they fully cooperate with Mueller.

Title: "Trump’s Mueller Interview Endgame"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/trump-is-using-an-interview-offer-as-another-way-to-discredit-the-mueller-probe.html

Extract: "He is using a negotiation as another way to discredit the investigation.

Federal prosecutors, it is often said, enjoy enormous power advantages over suspects and defendants. There are, however, areas in which the balance of power runs the opposite way. One is the ability to use the media. Criminal suspects and their lawyers have unfettered access to the press, while professional standards and Department of Justice rules severely restrict prosecutors from talking about what they are doing, especially at the investigative stage.

This asymmetry is even greater when the subject of the investigation is President Donald Trump, whose every tweet and utterance draws instant international coverage, and the prosecutor is Robert Mueller, who operates in a political environment that demands irreproachable conduct from him.

The president, of course, is no ordinary witness. Among other things, he is at serious legal risk in this matter and may effectively be a target of Mueller’s. Department of Justice guidelines, and norms of criminal practice, hold that investigative targets should not be subpoenaed to testify unless doing so is essential to an inquiry.

This rule, together with the president’s extraordinary job responsibilities, gives Trump’s lawyers the ability to force Mueller to deal with their demands.

Mueller is left in a bind. He cannot agree to an interview under conditions that would make it fruitless. Trump’s apparent version of the interview is a “Did you do it?” scenario that exists only on television. But investigative interviews in white-collar cases involve layered and detailed questions to establish intent. Proclaiming innocence is not the point. On the other hand, Mueller cannot maintain the credibility of his investigation if he does not give the president a chance to tell his side of the story to investigators.

The public will not know the truth about any “negotiations” that took place over interview conditions because they will hear only the president’s version of those events. Perhaps Mueller will decide that he has no choice but to deem the president’s testimony essential and issue a subpoena. The president’s lawyers would then contest the subpoena in court, and the courtroom is at least a playing field where Mueller can and would respond. But if Mueller issues a subpoena, it seems certain that the president would claim this extraordinary action proves that Mueller is simply out to get him. What’s clear is that the next steps in the interview episode could weaken Mueller’s precarious hold on the special counsel position further, as the prospect of Trump ever answering a question in the Russia probe continues to fade."
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 01:16:28 AM by AbruptSLR »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2473 on: January 30, 2018, 12:59:35 AM »
The inestimable FBI, apparently while under the leadership of "Honest Andy McCabe" has determined that the founding editor of Russian Times (RT) had beaten himself to death in his Washington hotel room.


http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/breaking-fbi-releases-docs-claiming-rt-founder-beat-himself-to-death-in-his-hotel-room_01272018

Thank FSM for the integrity of the Nation's Preeminent Police Force.
Terry
Ramen

This is a bizarre and irrational slam of McCabe.  The source document referred to in the article indicates that the man was very drunk.  Drunk people fall and injure themselves.  Even a sober person can slip on a hard bathroom floor, hit his head, and suffer an epidural hemorrhage -- rapidly fatal.

Regardless of all that, the determination that the death was accidental, rather than homicide, was by the Office of the DC Medical Examiner, not the FBI.  Law enforcement agencies don't make such determinations, coroners do.

Why go to the trouble to make silly, slanderous accusations against McCabe?  The alt-right and alt-left want to see the FBI discredited, but this is not a rational approach.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2474 on: January 30, 2018, 03:32:46 AM »
Now this is interesting. If these articles are to be believed, Wray  first threatened to resign after Sessions pressured him to fire McCabe. He was shown the Nunes memo over the weekend. He then changed his mind and pressured McCabe to resign.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42865202

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/371280-house-intel-votes-to-make-nunes-memo-public

That memo appears to nail McCabe in some way. Soon the memo will leak or be released (they voted to do so) and we will know.

On the other hand, media reports might be lies ...

sidd
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 03:43:14 AM by sidd »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2475 on: January 30, 2018, 03:45:45 AM »
To me Trump's refusal to implement the Congressionally mandated sanctions on Russia is an act of treason:

Title: "Trump administration declines to apply new Russia sanctions, for now"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-sanctions/trump-administration-declines-to-apply-new-russia-sanctions-for-now-idUSKBN1FI2V7

Extract: "The Trump administration said on Monday it would not immediately impose additional sanctions on Russia under a new law designed to punish Moscow’s alleged meddling in the 2016 U.S. election, insisting the measure was already hitting Russian companies.

“Today, we have informed Congress that this legislation and its implementation are deterring Russian defense sales,” State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said in a statement. “Since the enactment of the ... legislation, we estimate that foreign governments have abandoned planned or announced purchases of several billion dollars in Russian defense acquisitions.”

The administration faced a deadline on Monday to impose sanctions on anyone determined to conduct significant business with Russian defense and intelligence sectors, already sanctioned for their alleged role in the election."
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2476 on: January 30, 2018, 03:56:29 AM »
The GOP is engaging is a witch hunt on anyone involved in the Russia investigation.

Title: "U.S. House Panel Votes to Release Memo Alleging FBI Abuses"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-29/republicans-push-to-release-memo-alleging-fbi-anti-trump-abuses

Extract: "A U.S. House committee voted Monday to seek White House clearance to publicly release a classified Republican memo that alleges bias and counterintelligence abuses in government surveillance of people surrounding President Donald Trump, members of the panel said.

Representative Adam Schiff, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said the majority-Republican panel decided to seek release of the memo on a party-line vote. The Republican majority refused along party lines to disclose a competing memo written by Democrats.

“This is an effort to circle the wagons around the White House and distract from the Russia probe,” Schiff said."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2477 on: January 30, 2018, 04:15:31 AM »
The inestimable FBI, apparently while under the leadership of "Honest Andy McCabe" has determined that the founding editor of Russian Times (RT) had beaten himself to death in his Washington hotel room.


http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/breaking-fbi-releases-docs-claiming-rt-founder-beat-himself-to-death-in-his-hotel-room_01272018

Thank FSM for the integrity of the Nation's Preeminent Police Force.
Terry
Ramen

This is a bizarre and irrational slam of McCabe.  The source document referred to in the article indicates that the man was very drunk.  Drunk people fall and injure themselves.  Even a sober person can slip on a hard bathroom floor, hit his head, and suffer an epidural hemorrhage -- rapidly fatal.

Regardless of all that, the determination that the death was accidental, rather than homicide, was by the Office of the DC Medical Examiner, not the FBI.  Law enforcement agencies don't make such determinations, coroners do.

Why go to the trouble to make silly, slanderous accusations against McCabe?  The alt-right and alt-left want to see the FBI discredited, but this is not a rational approach.

Thank you Steve, for debunking that shtfplan.com article.

Unfortunately, Terry (despite claiming to "having been born a Mensan"), will probably just pick another alt-left or alt-right "news" outlet that vents Russian propaganda on a regular basis.
After all, there are plenty of them to choose from :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2478 on: January 30, 2018, 05:15:10 AM »
Actually, if you had followed the links you would have found that during their homicide investigation the Medical Examiner found the cause of death to have been "multiple blunt force injuries of the neck, head, torso, upper extremities and lower extremities. They found that the manner of Lesin's death was "undetermined"


This of course is directly from the FBI's Homicide investigation report.


It might aid communication if someone actually read my links. They'd then discover they contain actual FBI communications, rather than unsubstantiated opinions.


If you prefer the official, revised, cause of death, you're welcome to do so.


I used to drink excessively, but none of my peers at that time managed to beat themselves to a pulp even when falling down drunk. Perhaps the Russians are just that much better at drinking?


Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2479 on: January 30, 2018, 06:13:24 AM »
This of course is directly from the FBI's Homicide investigation report.

Then why don't you give a link directly to "the FBI's Homicide investigation report", instead of to some obscure web site with advertisements posted all over it ?

If you would have actually read the conclusions, you would have seen that the cause of death was NOT "undetermined", and that Steve was right that it was NOT the FBI that determined the cause of death :

https://vault.fbi.gov/mikhail-lesin/Mikhail%20Lesin%20Part%2001%20of%2001/view

Quote
After reviewing the video footage and new evidence developed from the investigation, the Chief Medical Examiner has determined that Mr. Lesin died of blunt force injuries to his head, with contributing causes being blunt force injuries to his neck, torso, upper extremities, and lower extremities, which were induced by falls, with acute ethanol intoxication

which is radically different from your assertion that "The inestimable FBI, apparently while under the leadership of "Honest Andy McCabe" has determined that the founding editor of Russian Times (RT) had beaten himself to death in his Washington hotel room.".

Admit it, Mr. "born a Mensan", you are just further hyping an already hyped article from a know Russian propaganda site, leading you to completely loose track of the facts, and using it for political smearing purposes.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 09:00:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2480 on: January 30, 2018, 07:02:34 AM »
propornot has a broad view, their list was extensively debunked:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/washington-post-blacklist-story-is-shameful-disgusting-w452543

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-propaganda-about-russian-propaganda

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/26/washington-post-disgracefully-promotes-a-mccarthyite-blacklist-from-a-new-hidden-and-very-shady-group/

WaPo had to retract:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/12/07/washington-post-appends-editors-note-russian-propaganda-story/

I see that antiwar, blackagendareport, consortiumnews, moonofalabama, nakedcapitalism, oftwominds, thirdworldtraveller, truth-out, truthdig, unz, voltairenet, washingtonsblog, wikileaks are all on the list. I wonder how the intercept and counterpunch got off. Nevertheless, it tells me exactly which views they don't want me to believe.

sidd



Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2481 on: January 30, 2018, 07:21:31 AM »
I see that antiwar, blackagendareport, consortiumnews, moonofalabama, nakedcapitalism, oftwominds, thirdworldtraveller, truth-out, truthdig, unz, voltairenet, washingtonsblog, wikileaks are all on the list. I wonder how the intercept and counterpunch got off. Nevertheless, it tells me exactly which views they don't want me to believe.

I don't know many of these sites, but I DO know "consortiumnews".

And 'propornot' is ABSOLUTELY right that "consortiumnews" (run by Robert Parry) are nothing less then a Russian propaganda site.
Their coverage of MH17 was absolutely disgusting, and still makes me sick to my stomach that they kept on repeating the lies from the Russian Ministry of Defense, even after they were exposed and proven as lies publicly by open source journalist sites like Bellingcat.

[edit] OK, I also checked antiwar.com and blackagendareport.com, and they fail the MH17 test, miserably. Russian propaganda, outright.
Incidentally, they both refer to consortiumnews (Robert Parry) for their 'evidence'.

[edit2] I also checked 'moonofalabama' and 'nakedcapitalism' on MH17. Same result : They discard (or don't mention) the evidence from the Dutch Safety Board and the MH17 JIT, and instead promote the Russian version that Ukraine did it. Disgusting. Makes me want to throw up.

It looks like 'PropOrNot.com' is SPOT ON with their assessment of sites that parrot Russian propaganda.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 09:28:34 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2482 on: January 30, 2018, 07:34:49 AM »
WaPo had to retract:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/12/07/washington-post-appends-editors-note-russian-propaganda-story/

No Sidd. The WaPo did not retract anything.
Note that your link is NOT from the WaPo.
The WaPo instead posted this :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/2016/11/24/793903b6-8a40-4ca9-b712-716af66098fe_story.html?utm_term=.21fc02f0d3f8

Quote
Editor’s Note: The Washington Post on Nov. 24 published a story on the work of four sets of researchers who have examined what they say are Russian propaganda efforts to undermine American democracy and interests. One of them was PropOrNot, a group that insists on public anonymity, which issued a report identifying more than 200 websites that, in its view, wittingly or unwittingly published or echoed Russian propaganda. A number of those sites have objected to being included on PropOrNot’s list, and some of the sites, as well as others not on the list, have publicly challenged the group’s methodology and conclusions. The Post, which did not name any of the sites, does not itself vouch for the validity of PropOrNot’s findings regarding any individual media outlet, nor did the article purport to do so. Since publication of The Post’s story, PropOrNot has removed some sites from its list.

And indeed, 'PropOrNot' did indeed remove some sites after they concluded that they no longer parrot Russian propaganda. They also added a few.

In their own words :
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

Quote
List v0.0.7:
Removed following constructive conversations with outlet operators: aanirfan.blogspot.co.uk, abovetopsecret.com, counterpunch.org, nutritionfacts.org, russia-direct.org
Added: 4thmedia.org, nsnbc.me, presstv.com, theunhivedmind.com, sana.sy

The list that PropOrNot.com posted still stands uncontested.
If you find any site on their list that is NOT parroting Russian propaganda, please let us know.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 08:27:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2483 on: January 30, 2018, 01:45:17 PM »
PropOrNot is a variant of McCarthyism against anything not mainstream in the media.
This is what R.Parry writes about it:

"...isn’t what this Post-promoted Web site /PropOrNot/ doing the essence of McCarthyistic “fake news” – making vague accusations and imposing guilt by association, suggesting that all the Web sites on its list are either treasonous or dupes?

Though the Post doesn’t seem to care about fairness regarding the 200 or so Web sites subjected to this McCarthyism, the smear operation doesn’t even present evidence that anyone actually is part of this grand Russian propaganda conspiracy. The PropOrNot site admits that the criteria for its “analysis” are “behaviorial,” not evidentiary.

In other words, the assessment is based on whether this anonymous group doesn’t like that some journalist is questioning the State Department’s propaganda line or has come up with information that isn’t convenient ..."

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/27/washington-posts-fake-news-guilt/

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2484 on: January 30, 2018, 02:03:51 PM »
The Russian bots and Putin/Trump apologists will be out in force over the coming months.  It is "protect Donnie at all costs" and I expect that to continue for a while....until fading economic numbers, a correction in the stock market, and dropping poll numbers will start to pull some Republicans "away from the mothership" (Moron Don).

In Watergate that break started to manifest itself in March 1974.  We're a month or two away from that break.  No doubt.....Mueller will be in the middle of it.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2485 on: January 30, 2018, 03:55:54 PM »
To me Trump's refusal to implement the Congressionally mandated sanctions on Russia is an act of treason:

Title: "Trump administration declines to apply new Russia sanctions, for now"


I don't think that could be called treason, unless we were at war with Russia (heaven forbid).  Even then, the Commander in Chief has broad discretion about how to conduct a war (once it's been declared by Congress).

However, it is plainly failure to faithfully execute the law of the land, part of the oath of office. 
It's thus in the realm of impeachable offense.  By itself, I think inadequate to merit impeachment.  But as one of potentially dozens of articles of impeachment, it would fit right in.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2486 on: January 30, 2018, 04:50:29 PM »
To me Trump's refusal to implement the Congressionally mandated sanctions on Russia is an act of treason:

Title: "Trump administration declines to apply new Russia sanctions, for now"


I don't think that could be called treason, unless we were at war with Russia (heaven forbid).  Even then, the Commander in Chief has broad discretion about how to conduct a war (once it's been declared by Congress).

However, it is plainly failure to faithfully execute the law of the land, part of the oath of office. 
It's thus in the realm of impeachable offense.  By itself, I think inadequate to merit impeachment.  But as one of potentially dozens of articles of impeachment, it would fit right in.

During the 1806 trial for the 'Burr conspiracy' the constitution was in effect, and the USA was not at war, but Aaron Burr was indicted for treason.  But perhaps I should have said that Trump's refusal to implement Congressionally ordered sanctions against Russia likely is a case of 'conspiracy against the United States', given Trump's ties to Putin and the CIA's clear warning the Russia is preparing to meddle in the US 2018 midterm elections.  I hope the Mueller is taking note of Trump's continuing acts of conspiring with a foreign government to influence US elections:

Title: "Burr conspiracy"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy

Extract: " The Burr conspiracy was a suspected treasonous cabal of planters, politicians, and army officers in the early 19th century. The cabal was allegedly led by Aaron Burr, the former Vice President of the United States (1801–1805); according to the accusations against him, Burr's goal was to create an independent country in the center of North America and/or the present-day Southwestern United States and parts of present-day Mexico. Burr's version was that he intended to take possession of, and farm, 40,000 acres (160 km2) in the Texas Territory leased to him by the Spanish Crown.

President Thomas Jefferson ordered Burr arrested and indicted for treason, despite not providing firm evidence. Burr's true intentions remain unclear to historians, some of whom claim he intended to take parts of Texas and some or all of the Louisiana Purchase for himself. Burr was acquitted of treason, but the trial destroyed his already faltering political career."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2487 on: January 30, 2018, 05:32:51 PM »
Adam Schiff has seen both the House Intelligence Committee memo and the intelligence that is not cited in the memo and he confirms that the GOP cherry-picked the information in the memo:
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2488 on: January 30, 2018, 05:35:13 PM »
trea·son

noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.


I think he (AbruptSLR) had it just right.  It is treason.  And it won't be the last bit of treason that comes to the light of day in his investigation.

It is clear to anyone who doesn't have a Canadian brain freeze....that Donnie is taking some orders from his short little friend in Moscow.  And when short little Vladi says jump....Donnie says "how high?"

Donnie and his cronies continue on their illegal path....because Donnie is in too deep to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.  There is no turning back....and Donnie will continue to get help from those in the House, Senate, and faux press like FOX.  Afterall....Mueller likely has Sean on tape trying to help in the coverup. 

And yes....Donnie will eventually fire Mueller (or have someone fire him).  Just think how close we have already come to that point.

Donnie....as I noted the other day.....is setting people up so that he WON'T speak to Mueller.  If he does sit down....it will only be to take the 5th amendment.  Knowing what Mueller knows......there is no way Donnie can answer questions honestly (unless he wanted to plead guilty...which isn't going to happen).

Eight months or more ago....I said the "T word" would be used....and it has been bandied about now for a couple of months.  It will get MORE SERIOUS as the next months go by (assuming the investigation is allowed to go through to fruition).

We still haven't had our first issue from RussiaGate go to the Supreme Court....but that is coming as well.

The process continues.......





 



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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2489 on: January 30, 2018, 05:54:40 PM »
Buddy


Any ideas on how Dumb Donald & Vicious Vlad are communicating?


With the NSA filtering all electronics, & spooks following everyone around, just how is Vlad able to issue orders to his hapless henchman?


Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2490 on: January 30, 2018, 06:03:54 PM »
Buddy


Any ideas on how Dumb Donald & Vicious Vlad are communicating?


With the NSA filtering all electronics, & spooks following everyone around, just how is Vlad able to issue orders to his hapless henchman?


Terry

When Dvorkovich says that Team Trump official were hiding from the Russians at Davos, you know that this statement is disinformation.  There are plenty of direct channels through which Trump can communicate with Putin:

Title: "U.S. Officials Are Hiding From Russians at Davos, Deputy Premier Says:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-24/u-s-officials-hide-from-russians-at-davos-deputy-premier-says

Extract: "U.S. officials are avoiding contact with their Russian counterparts at the World Economic Forum amid tensions over sanctions, Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich said."
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2491 on: January 30, 2018, 06:46:57 PM »
Perhaps the Russians are just that much better at drinking?
They are world masters of combat alcoholism, indeed.
(Once I had a Lithuanian (almost Russian) friend who regularly managed to piss his pants while still standing after x vodkas. But he never seriously hurt himself when falling around. He even survived a blackout in the snow.)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2492 on: January 30, 2018, 06:52:54 PM »
Any ideas on how Dumb Donald & Vicious Vlad are communicating?


With the NSA filtering all electronics, & spooks following everyone around, just how is Vlad able to issue orders to his hapless henchman?
1.) Money is speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo )
2a.) Not all phones are tapped 2b.) There is the internet. 2c.) If you don't trust the cryptography, try steganography and bury that in spam.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2493 on: January 30, 2018, 07:05:16 PM »

1.) Money is speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo )
2a.) Not all phones are tapped 2b.) There is the internet. 2c.) If you don't trust the cryptography, try steganography and bury that in spam.

I think encrypted fax transmissions may be the most secure.  Much less likely to be intercepted.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2494 on: January 30, 2018, 07:13:59 PM »
The Trump Administration makes the Keystone Cops look coordinated:

Title: "Mnuchin promises more sanctions on Russia after outrage over report"

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/371386-mnuchin-promises-more-sanctions-on-russia-after-outrage-over-report

Extract: "Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said Tuesday the Trump administration will impose financial sanctions on dozens of wealthy Russians despite the president declining a congressional deadline to do so."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2495 on: January 30, 2018, 07:15:43 PM »

Any ideas on how Dumb Donald & Vicious Vlad are communicating?

They don't need to.

Vlad's trolls encourage dissent and propagate memes about corruption and inadequacy on the left, and spread vicious and not-so-vicious stories that the credulous and even people like you who are all too willing to believe, once they're published somewhere where they can be assimilated. They support every kind of splinter group, and infest the internet.

In return for favors done, Trump does things like this: Trump Administration Won’t Impose Sanctions on Buyers of Russian Arms https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/us/politics/trump-russia-sanctions.html

Now we have the "Republican memo" that claims that Trump guy Carter Page, who was proven to be in contact with actual proven Russian spies, is innocent and the guilty party is the FBI who continued surveillance on him. If they succeed, they will remove the last bulwark between Mueller's investigation and repression. In the name of public "honesty" they'll publish Nunes' (who received $12.5 million in corporate funding last year) carefully composed misrepresentation, but have refused to simultaneously release a more careful review and analysis of the facts from the Dems and/or professionals.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2496 on: January 30, 2018, 07:27:13 PM »
Donnie....as I noted the other day.....is setting people up so that he WON'T speak to Mueller.  If he does sit down....it will only be to take the 5th amendment.  Knowing what Mueller knows......there is no way Donnie can answer questions honestly (unless he wanted to plead guilty...which isn't going to happen).


I suspect a slightly different outcome.  I think it's in *both* Mueller and Trump's interest for Trump to answer questions, under oath, to the Grand Jury. 

This is a super-secret proceeding.  Trump has no realistic choice but to plead the 5th.  If he does so in an informal interview, it will be definitively leaked.

If he pleads the 5th in a Grand Jury, it really can't be leaked in any definitive way, or somebody goes to jail.  I'm pretty sure even Congress can't subpoena Grand Jury testimony.  The gist of his non-responsive testimony will get out, but nobody will be able to report anything definitively.

He can delay proceedings a bit longer if he angles for Grand Jury testimony.  He can pretend to work towards an interview for a few months, then give up on that, citing unreasonable demands.  The Grand Jury subpoena might be dragged out by, say, a new war somewhere.

Grand Jury testimony is possibly in Mueller's interest, as the Grand Jury can then be motivated to issue an indictment, which doesn't have to be approved by Mueller's boss(es). 

The indictment of the President, then, doesn't become a question of whether the Justice Department can indict a sitting President.  It becomes whether a Grand Jury indictment can go to trial while a President is in office.  Given the place of the Grand Jury in the Constitution, I'd be cautiously optimistic that a GJ indictment *can* go to trial. 

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2497 on: January 30, 2018, 07:49:12 PM »
McCabe's replacement is likely no friend of Trump's (which is good news for the resistance):

Title: "New Acting FBI Deputy Director David Bowdich Might Be a Trump-Russia Probe Witness"

http://www.newsweek.com/andrew-mccabe-deputy-director-replacement-david-bowdich-794339

Extract: "An FBI official who served as associate deputy director under James Comey and Andrew McCabe is replacing McCabe as acting deputy director, an FBI spokesman confirmed to Newsweek. Multiple outlets including Newsweek had previously reported the news, citing sources.

As associate deputy director, David Bowdich was the third-ranking FBI official, according to the bureau's organization chart, and would now become No. 2.

Before his departure, McCabe told Bowdich and other senior employees that they might have to serve as witnesses in special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election and possible coordination with the Trump campaign, Vox reported in August.

The Department of Justice now is expected to approve making Bowdich the long-term deputy director, removing the “acting” title. The decision would likely be up to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who oversees the FBI. A spokesperson for the department was not immediately available to comment."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2498 on: January 30, 2018, 07:50:44 PM »
Remind me again.


Is all of this because it will be so much easier to unseat the Heroic President Pence once he's booted out Trump?


It can't be to make the Republicans look good by blaming their policies on Trump, can it?


Does anyone really want to institute Hillary's confrontational campaign policies WRT Russia?


Why are we doing this?
Terry




AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #2499 on: January 30, 2018, 08:33:13 PM »
It would be nice if Ryan also advised Trump not to fire Rosenstein:

Title: "Ryan urges Republicans to take caution with FBI memo"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/30/ryan-urges-republicans-to-take-caution-with-fbi-memo-377038

Extract: "Speaker Paul Ryan urged Republican colleagues Tuesday to avoid overstating the findings of a classified House intelligence committee memo that alleges misconduct by FBI officials investigating Trump campaign contacts with Russia.

In a closed-door meeting with House Republicans at the Capitol, Ryan (R-Wis.) also urged lawmakers not to connect the findings of the memo with the probe being run by special counsel Robert Mueller, according to a source in the room.

Ryan also indicated to reporters that he saw no cause for firing Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who oversees Mueller's probe. Some Trump allies have heaped criticism on Rosenstein for appointing Mueller in the first place and for not doing more to put constraints on the probe."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson