The Russiagate conspiracy theory

[TerryM]

I followed Putin closely through the Crimea phase and came away unexpectedly impressed.


Silk, had no idea you were of my generation. Grey is the wave of today. Never trust anyone under thirty, or is it fifty!


I feel sure that Novichuks have been tested on some hapless human by some uncaring agency. The Dr. that said no one was treated for nerve agent poisoning specifically said that this was true both in the hospital, and in all of Salisbury. His remark wasn't bounded by the walls of the emergency ward.
He did say that three people had been treated for poisoning, and I thought that distinction was quite telling. Ingesting too much heroin results in heroin poisoning, drinking vodka too rapidly results in alcohol poisoning. - not implying that is the case here, just that treating for poisoning opens the doors quite wide.


Whether Putin is good or evil is still up for discussion, but the fact that he is bright is beyond dispute.
Would a bright leader of Russia have done such a thing at such a time?


Neven
I too follow a few of the columnists at various publications, but believe upper management has been proven to be controlled by the spooks in many instances. Remember the German journalist who spilled the beans on the CIA a few years back? I think this is real, and nothing I've seen has swayed me from that opinion.
BBC was my go to for decades, now I much prefer RT.


The drums seem to have slowed almost imperceivable, or perhaps they've just faded into the background of the Russians must be stopped cacophony.
All we can do is to try to calm our neighbors down. Convince them that without Russian and Chinese assistance we'll surely cook the world.
Terry

[SteveMDFP]

I don't believe the idea that chemical traces can identify a specific laboratory.

just in this you're definitely wrong, it's not about believe, it's a fact that this is possible, mostly not because of chemical composition and traces but due to very specific "impurities"

Well yes, in theory, one might be able to identify a lab this way.
I'm aware of proposals to "sign" batches of commercial explosives with ratios of specific elements, to aid such identification after misuse.
But actually applying that theory, in this case, presupposes a number of things.  If identically-sourced reagents were used in synthesizing this Novichok-class agent, one would end up with the same impurities.  Plus, testing the validity of this approach would require analyzing varying batches from varying sources.  But there's only one known source (plus maybe a few defunct sources).  Plus, how can one know what impurities might have been from environmental surfaces?  Presumably, most of the material analyzed was in contact with Skruipal's dominant hand.

So, yeah, maybe that's possible here.  But abundant reason to be very skeptical.  I strongly suspect that the source claim derives from specific identification of the substance and having only one known source for it.  That's reasonably strong, but not as strong as implied.

Regardless of the quibbles on this point, I see no serious reason to doubt the KGBFSB/GRU source for the assassination attempt.  It fits with prior known actions, and with obvious motives, and with the likely risk tolerance for having the attempt found out.  If anyone missed the reference to support the previous sentence:
http://nationalpost.com/news/the-devilish-art-of-assassination-why-russia-eliminates-its-enemies-with-dramatic-flair

Oh, and nobody should think that the Chemical Weapons Convention prevents signatories from holding on to kilogram quantities of such agents.  That's allowed, for "research":
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/cwcglance

[edit: obvious errors corrected]

[silkman]

Neven

I think you're being a bit hard on the Guardian. There's no way it would become the lap dog of the Tory government.

My point is that there's clearly an absence of publicly verifiable evidence on both sides and it's therefore not appropriate to jump to conclusions either way.

What we do know is that there are any number of interested parties out there with an interest in muddying the pool including Russian bots and GCHQ and the old rules no longer apply.

There's no question in my mind that the Russians have both the technology and the capacity to have used Novichok in this way. What is lacking is a logical motive; the timing opposite the World Cup makes no sense. Maybe the most logical conclusion is involvement a dissident group seeking to disturb the status quo

It really does need some good independent investigative journalism to expose any such shenanigans but that's a tough ask.

[wili]

Neven wrote: "I absolutely love George Monbiot (and Andrew Simms)..."

Me, too! 

[silkman]

Terry

I'm afraid it's seventy in my case. I think Gerontocrat is a fellow traveller.

With respect to the "poisoning" I think you can rule out the heroin/fentanyl overdose. Opiates have a very specific and totally diagnostic reversal agent in naloxone.

[TerryM]

Terry

I'm afraid it's seventy in my case. I think Gerontocrat is a fellow traveller.

With respect to the "poisoning" I think you can rule out the heroin/fentanyl overdose. Opiates have a very specific and totally diagnostic reversal agent in naloxone.

72 is my next shop.


If the Dr. is to be believed, then his "No patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury", should be respected. I don't remember anyone ruling out naloxone or any other treatment.


The first to notice the pair said "They looked like they'd taken something quite strong"

My opiate riff wasn't intended to be diagnostic, just an example of where we could go and keep the good doctor's statements in line with reality.
No one to my knowledge has affirmed that the Detective Sergeant was poisoned with the same poison as the Skripals. It makes sense that he was, and if so eliminates all of the opiates with the possible exception of fentanyl.


It's difficult for an ex con to make a lot of money, in a short period of time, and to do so legally. I'd really like to know how Sergei and his son accumulated so much money.

Perhaps MI6 still owed him some back wages. Perhaps he made a big bet on a fast horse. His son might have been a big shot at Microsoft.


We think we know that he didn't have a 9 to 5 job, and his former neighbor says he took long trips out of the country.
We believe that MI6 payed him $100k in 1995 to sell out his country.

He's 66 now, would have been 52 when he was arrested, 54 when he was sentenced and 58 when he got out. That's a difficult age for a man to find work. Especially if he's in a foreign country and can't work in his old trade.

Upon his arrest Yulia was broke.
"“It was a difficult time . . . They didn’t have money and she agreed to do any job,” said the friend. "
She moved to England in 2012
After she moved back to Moscow in 2014 she worked a 5 month contract with Pepsico that ended in 2017?

We know he was released in a prison swap in 2010
We think that he paid 260k euro cash for his duplex in 2011(even if they refer to is as a stand alone home all of the photos are of a duplex).
We think his deceased son had 150k euro in a (secret)? bank account.
We think he owned an expensive BMW, he certainly drove one.

Where did his money come from?
Could associates have wished him harm?

Where are the journalists hiding? England is (In)Famous for her tabloids and yellow journalism. Where have the paparazzi been?

Terry

[Rob Dekker]

Why to you dismiss the possibility?

The possibility isn't dismissed. The problem is that all other possibilities have been dismissed from the start,....

I think the problem is that any of these "other possibilities" imply conspiracy theories (especially the 14 theories the Russians have put forward) that include :
1) a "false flag" attack, and
2) the existence of a secret Novichok development program in a secret lab not approved by the government where this lab exists.

I think the voices of reason in the west (including the Guardian) simply do not believe any such conspiracy theories, especially given Russia's past track record on denying and lying about bad deeds they did (invading Georgia, invading Ukraine, annexing Crimea, MH17, bombing mosques and hospitals in Syria, intervening in the elections of other nations etc etc).

In short, I think the voices of reason are fed-up with Putin's disruptive and his "plausible deniability" policy of lies and propaganda.

That's why they acted faster than they normally would.

[Rob Dekker]

Finally, we are starting to act against Putin where it actually hurts him : his oligarchs.

The Treasury Department announced new sanctions against seven Russian "oligarchs" — billionaire business titans, often with close relationships to Russian President Vladimir Putin — 12 of their companies, 17 Russian government officials and two Russian companies, including its state arms exporter.

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/06/600111532/the-russia-sanctions-saga-weapons-dealers-mobsters-and-suitcases-full-of-cash

Also, this is the first time I actually agree with Mnuchin :

"The Russian government engages in a range of malign activity around the globe, including continuing to occupy Crimea and instigate violence in eastern Ukraine, supplying the Assad regime with material and weaponry as they bomb their own civilians, attempting to subvert Western democracies, and malicious cyber activities," Mnuchin said. "Russian oligarchs and elites who profit from this corrupt system will no longer be insulated from the consequences of their government's destabilizing activities."

Enough is enough.

[AbruptSLR]

It looks like Trump has ordered Homeland Security to monitor Journalists and Bloggers (like everyone here) so that he can pressure whomever he wants, whenever he wants:

Title: "Homeland Security to Compile Database of Journalists, Bloggers"

https://biglawbusiness.com/homeland-security-to-compile-database-of-journalists-bloggers/

Extract: "The U.S. Department of Homeland Security wants to monitor hundreds of thousands of news sources around the world and compile a database of journalists, editors, foreign correspondents, and bloggers to identify top “media influencers.”

It’s seeking a contractor that can help it monitor traditional news sources as well as social media and identify “any and all” coverage related to the agency or a particular event, according to a request for information released April 3.

The data to be collected includes a publication’s “sentiment” as well as geographical spread, top posters, languages, momentum, and circulation. No value for the contract was disclosed."

[AbruptSLR]

Anyone who thinks that Trump is innocent, should be encouraging Mueller to conduct a very thorough investigation in order to better contain the 'infection' associated with Russiagate:

Title: "‘Mueller is tracking an infectious’ disease: Ex FBI counterintelligence head explains Trump’s Russia investigation"

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/mueller-tracking-infectious-disease-ex-fbi-counterintelligence-head-explains-trumps-russia-investigation/

Extract: "The former Assistant Director for Counterintelligence at the Federal Bureau of Investigation explained on MSNBC’s Deadline: White House that special counsel Robert Mueller is like an epidemiologist tracking the spread of an infection."

[Rob Dekker]

If the Dr. is to be believed, then his "No patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury", should be respected.

Terry, your biased assertions are noted, since they only show up on Russian propaganda sites.
If you dig down into the details, the statements by this "Dr" were ambiguous and self-contradicting.

In the future, please provide a reference to your statements, so we can all check them for validity.
Thanks !

[silkman]

72 is my next shop.

Mine too Terry. And after my brief foray into this high octane subject (apologies for the fossil fuel reference) I think it's time to go back to watching from the sidelines from behind the hedge on the Gardening thread.......

[Rob Dekker]

The Russians who had asked after Skripal's pets well being now are asking why their bodies were incinerated. We'll never know what an autopsy would have revealed, and I'll never understand how people could allow pets to be left without food, water, and companionship for so long.

Terry, please provide SOME evidence that the Skripals had ANY pets (let alone that their bodies were incinerated).

Thank you !

[Neven]

I think you're being a bit hard on the Guardian. There's no way it would become the lap dog of the Tory government.

Maybe not, but in this Skripal affair, most of what I've read, is pretty bad, from a purely journalistic point of view.

My point is that there's clearly an absence of publicly verifiable evidence on both sides and it's therefore not appropriate to jump to conclusions either way.

It seems we share the same contrary view. 

I think the answer lies in what Skripal has been up to all these years. I'm surprised that with all the speculation, and the 'leaks' from 'sources', no journalist has deemed it interesting to look for a possible connection with the Steele dossier. Maybe Putin wanted Skripal silenced for the work he did exposing Russia's meddling in the US election? That sounds like a much more plausible motive than the ones I've heard so far.

[Neven]

Terry, please provide SOME evidence that the Skripals had ANY pets (let alone that their bodies were incinerated).

Thank you !

Do you really need Terry to guide you to the front page of The Guardian?

Here it is:

Two guinea pigs belonging to Sergei Skripal died and his cat was put down after the Salisbury nerve agent attack, the government has revealed.

A spokeswoman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) said the dead guinea pigs and a “distressed” cat were discovered when a vet was able to enter Skripal’s home, which had been sealed off during the police investigation. Defra said it believed the guinea pigs had died of thirst.

[Rob Dekker]

Terry, please provide SOME evidence that the Skripals had ANY pets (let alone that their bodies were incinerated).

Thank you !

Do you really need Terry to guide you to the front page of The Guardian?

Yes. Neven. I would like Terry to do that.

In fact, I would like anyone making a statement to back it up with a reference.
That avoids myths being created.

Thanks for the link.

[TerryM]

Terry, please provide SOME evidence that the Skripals had ANY pets (let alone that their bodies were incinerated).

Thank you !

Do you really need Terry to guide you to the front page of The Guardian?

Yes. Neven. I would like Terry to do that.

In fact, I would like anyone making a statement to back it up with a reference.
That avoids myths being created.

Thanks for the link.

You state "That avoids myths being created"
Show me a link.


Terry

[SteveMDFP]

You state "That avoids myths being created"
Show me a link.

Terry

It's a valid request, whether intended as snark or not.

How to Avoid Spreading Myths and Misinformation Online
https://lifehacker.com/5798308/how-to-identify-and-avoid-spreading-misinformation-myths-and-urban-legends-on-the-internet

[TerryM]

You state "That avoids myths being created"
Show me a link.

Terry

It's a valid request, whether intended as snark or not.

How to Avoid Spreading Myths and Misinformation Online
https://lifehacker.com/5798308/how-to-identify-and-avoid-spreading-misinformation-myths-and-urban-legends-on-the-internet

Of course it is a valid request!


Your link is obviously a faux news site. I need a link verifying that they aren't just a hive of angry bots doing their evil masters biding. How can anything with "hacker" embedded in it's name be taken seriously! and besides it's Rob who must provide proof for his own false, malicious, lying, and ill advised statement.




I've a teapot orbiting the sun that I'd like to offer you both shares in.
Terry

[SteveMDFP]

I've a teapot orbiting the sun that I'd like to offer you both shares in.
Terry

Trying to sell Russell's famous teapot, eh?  Well, if you can provide an authenticated, signed receipt from Bertrand Russell, I'd be interested.  It would be a valuable addition to my signature collection.
;-)

[TerryM]

I've a teapot orbiting the sun that I'd like to offer you both shares in.
Terry

Trying to sell Russell's famous teapot, eh?  Well, if you can provide an authenticated, signed receipt from Bertrand Russell, I'd be interested.  It would be a valuable addition to my signature collection.
;-)

Ramen


May his beer dipped noodly appendage cool your fevered brow.
Terry

[sidd]

A new set of data on nerve agent used in a pair of previous murders appears:

" ...  the results of a mass spectrometry and an infrared spectroscopy of the poisonous substance ... "

" ... the hydrolitic process used in several of the analyses of the suspected novichok, and the quality of the mass spectrometry data, would be of particular importance."

Made in a garage ...

"Leonid Rink, a former employee of the chemical weapons facility, admits in case files seen by the Guardian and first reported by Reuters to enlisting a scientist to develop a batch of the nerve agent in his garage and sell it to an organised crime group. "

So mass spec and IR results are available for this third source added to the Uzbek and Iranian data. Porton Down will, no doubt, compare the skirpal measurements with this one. Whether they will reveal the results, shut up, or lie is yet to be seen.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/uk-us-case-file-russian-nerve-agent-shikhany-spy-poisoning

sidd

[TerryM]

A few links that may mean nothing at all.

The first is an interview of Victoria after her call from Yulia, but prior to the Brits turning down her visa.
https://the-newspapers.com/2018/04/06/unknown-details-of-the-sisters-conversation-skripal-if-julia-was-reading-from-a-sheet
It'a a lousy translation into english but most of it is understandable.
I didn't know that Yulia had been awake for a full week prior to the call.

This confirms that Victoria's visa request was refused, and adds that Victoria believes her relatives were suffering from food poisoning.
https://news.sky.com/story/salisbury-attack-yulia-and-sergei-skripals-relative-refused-entry-to-britain-11319366

A second supposition that the Skripals were victims of shellfish poisoning, which apparently is a poison (saxitoxin) closely related to nerve agents if only by the symptoms.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-best-explanation-for-the-skripal-drama-is-food-poisoning.html
I'd question how the cop was poisoned and why no one else at Zizza was effected.

Apparently as a signatories of the Chemical Weapons Treaty all the Brits have to do is to inform the OPCW that they believe Russia has nerve agents at a certain location. Russia is them treaty bound to give OPCW agents immediate access to that site.
This sounds reasonable but puts a huge hole in the "Russians store Novichoks at xx location" story.

In "court documents" Porton Down maintained that they got their samples from the victim's blood.
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/06/skripals-survived-b-c-novichok-in-their-skin-but-porton-down-identified-it-from-their-blood/
Note the specific phrasing.

"Blood samples from both Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound.
The samples tested positive for a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent."

Lots to speculate about here!
1) No mention of the cop's analysis.
2) Were the trace amounts found all over Salisbury a match?
3) The hospital Dr.'s claim that "No one was treated for nerve agent poisoning "

Does this indicate that whatever was found in both of their blood streams was a "closely related agent" that was not a nerve agent?

Why on earth were May and Boris making such ridiculous claims?
How can they possibly back down without being made a laughing stock?
Is anyone willing to start WWIII to save May and Boris from embarrassment?
Terry

[Buddy]

In the never ending case of "the moving goalposts"..... Donald Trump has been moving them again over the last few months.  Remember at first:  "My staff had no conversations with Russians."

That went by the wayside after Jeff Sessions had to recuse himself, and a gaggle of other Trump workers had to admit they had lied or forgot about all the contacts they had.

Then.... they basically said that they had talked to Russians, but it wasn't about colluding with them regarding the election.

Now.... they have been setting themselves up for their next move, which is this:  "OK.... we may have colluded, but it wasn't illegal."

The Justice Dept disagrees with Trump about the legality of collusion

With this in mind, Trump has been eager to exonerate himself from the idea that his campaign was in league with Russian operatives during their intelligence operation against the United States.

But presented with all kinds of evidence pointing to cooperation between Trump’s political operation and Russia during its attack, the president and his team have hedged a bit. Trump said in December, for example, “There is no collusion, and even if there was, it’s not a crime.”

Around the same time, Jay Sekulow, a member of the president’s legal defense team, added that even if Trump World colluded with Russia, it would be irrelevant as a criminal matter. Sekulow said, ”There is not a statute that refers to criminal collusion. There is no crime of collusion.”

The point wasn’t subtle. Trump and his team desperately want the public to believe there was no collusion, but they also seem to recognize the possibility that the Republican campaign really did cooperate with the foreign adversary during its attack on our democracy – so they’ve made the case that such collusion would be perfectly permissible under the law.

The funny thing is, the Justice Department apparently disagrees with Trump World’s legal analysis.

The New Yorker’s Jeffrey Toobin had a fascinating item this week on a Justice Department filing in the case against Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chairman, who wants the charges against him dismissed because, as Manafort’s lawyers have argued, the indictments fall outside of Mueller’s authority as special counsel.

In response to this claim, Mueller filed a brief that laid out the basis for him to bring the case. As described in the brief, after Mueller was appointed, in May of last year, he asked Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney General and Mueller’s supervisor, for specific authorization for the areas that he wanted to investigate. In a memorandum issued on August 2nd, Rosenstein spelled out the details of Mueller’s jurisdiction. […]

That statement could not be clearer that Mueller can examine whether a member of the Trump campaign and the Russians were “colluding,” and thus working together “in violation of United States law.” In other words, according to Rosenstein, collusion would be a crime.[/size]


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-justice-dept-disagrees-trump-about-the-legality-collusion

[TerryM]

sidd


If one group could make Novichoks in a garage, doesn't this widen the suspect list to everyone that has access to a garage?


I'm falling further into the camp that believe they ate some bad shellfish. The local gendarmes were allert to Novichok agents from the recently aired TV series and from the ongoing Chemical Weapons Exercises which they had no doubt played some role in.


The cop needs to find some other way to poison himself under this scenario, unless sea food poisoning can be spread by contact with bodily fluids? - but otherwise it fits in an Occam's Razor kind of way.


The 40 locals who believed that they had been poisoned were victims of a sort of reverse acting placebo effect. Just how strongly was the good detective affected? Why was his blood not counted among those who exhibited evidence of the "agent"? Could he have driven himself to the hospital and been admitted just because he was a cop, unlike the other 40 who thought they'd been done under?


For those that ponder such things Yulia's other cat appears to be safe in Russia.
Terry

[TerryM]

Buddy


Last night I spoke for hours with an Armenian. The day before I dined with a Chinese citizen, two Americans, a Brit and a dual citizen Jewish kid. (everyone under 50 is now a kid)
I regularly schedual meetings with Serbians, Russians, Mexicans, a Greek refugee, and a Swedish family.

One of the Swedes, the Greek, and often one of the Serbs (he speaks Russian) and I discuss colluding in various businesses, conferences, entertainment, and vacation destinations. Damn near forgot the Polish gal that's always trying to get me away to Pelee Island for a weekend.


If collusion with foreigners is now a crime in your Excited States, I'll stay on my own side of the border.


BTW, The Trump campaign was a pretty good sized operation. Do you really believe Trump kept track of everyone Stumblin' George, Evil Eye Flynn, or Morose Manafort talked to over a six month period?


I couldn't possibly account for every foreigner I've spoken to in the last fortnight. If you can, you're living a far to sheltered life.


Terry

[SteveMDFP]

 
Rob's flippant request is BS in this matter. It's emotionally driven obstinacy and is 100% disingenuous given the recent evidence I have seen. He asked for a Link, and was told where to go. Who gave it to him is irrelevant. And if you wish to pursue such foolish on 'logical grounds' I suggest you have no legs to stand on. He isn't GOD! 
 

This entire diatribe is off-topic.  And ad hominem attacks are worse.  If you want to comment on people who post on this forum, start a gossip thread.

[Rob Dekker]

You state "That avoids myths being created"
Show me a link.

OK. Here is a recent example.
In another thread somebody stated that :

In Syria we [the US] have trained and supplied Al Queada fighters...

without providing any link or reference nor any evidence.

One can never prove the absence of something (that teapot comes to mind), and I know enough about the subject that i know it is a myth, so I asked for a link.
This is what happened next :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg148959.html#msg148959

Nobody produced a link or reference, but there was plenty of criticism of me asking for one,
including statements of "poor Rob" and " no one should blame Rob because he has been so thoroughly manipulated by lies and propaganda for decades.".

Sorry guys, but if something does not make sense to me, or sounds like a myth, I will ask for a reference. That's the only way to debunk myths if they are there (and prove your point if its not a myth).

It's called fact-checking, and that is what I like to do, and what I think is needed to keep this forum fact-based and not turn into an outlet for mud slinging, myths and conspiracy theories.

So if you make a statement of fact, provide a reference.
And if you make a statement of opinion, state that it is your opinion or what you think.
And if somebody else makes a statement of fact without providing a reference, ask for one !

[Rob Dekker]

the request was flippant. The request was not rational nor reasonable.  there is no logic in presuming just because someone asked for something it's valid. the person who these things refer to is Rob. That's being clear whose comments I was speaking of, that you referenced. It is not adhom - nothing like it.

You have to be kidding.
I just asked for a reference to the claim that "In Syria we [the US] have trained and supplied Al Queada fighters...".
And you state that "The request was not rational nor reasonable. " ?

Since when is asking for evidence to a claim "not rational nor reasonable." ?

Steve, fyi, this is what Adhom actually looks like "You guys are despicable."
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1748.msg149095.html#msg149095
That wasn't me Steve.

70 people were just killed in Eastern Goutha by another chemical attack (denied) by the Assad regime on his own people.

But the shocking thing is that the first thing you and Terry and Hefaistos do is to immediately blame the people that were actually bombed.
 
Yes, I find that despicable.

In fact it makes me feel sick to my stomach.

[zizek]

Come on Rob. Don't try and play a victim. It's exhausting debating with you. You never respond to references we cite, unless you use it to construct a strawman.  You constantly move the goal posts.  You demand that anti-anti-russian or anti-west arguments are thoroughly cited, while you never do the same for yourself:

70 people were just killed in Eastern Goutha by another chemical attack (denied) by the Assad regime on his own people.

You have to appreciate the irony of criticizing other posters for presenting statements without citations, while doing the exact. same. thing. yourself. in that exact same post.  But.... The poster you were criticizing was presenting ideas that aren't exactly controversial.  You, on the other hand, just claimed that the the Syrian government committed the gas attack.

AND THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT CLAIM

[TerryM]

Just brought this over from the Trump thread as I think it's a better fit.

If bellingcat has weighed in for one side, that's a pretty good indicator that they are the guilty party.

Elliot was an unemployed ladies underwear salesman living in his mother's house the last time I had anything to do with him. While calling himself Brown Moses he once insisted that a particular tank was a modern T-90 when it was evident to everyone else that it was actually an antique T-62. He left the blog shortly after that fiasco. The rebels it turned out had "liberated" the vehicle from a static park display and had rebuilt it, at least to the stage that it could be driven about Eastern Ukraine. No one ever produced any evidence that the turret was operational nor that the big gun could actually fire. They did however present lots of before and after photos of the park and it's now missing display.
Elliot insisted that it was a far more modern Russian tank, and proof of a Russian invasion.

Brown Moses arguing style is not unlike our own Rob's. I had written some nasty stuff here, them cut it in the interest of civility. I will say he was a relentless advocate for his cause. He could watch as women were fleeing Ukrainian Nazi's, and blame them for their resistance.Elliot disappeared for a short time and came back as bellingcat. Now with assumed CIA backing, a job with the Atlantic Counsel and a real office to toddle off to. - but still close to his dear mother's.

What a veritable font of disinformation.

As far as the recent false flag, drop in at RT and you will find video's of the chemical weapons facility that Assad's forces "liberated" just weeks ago. Yes they did notify OPCW of their discovery, and no they didn't retain the chemicals.

It's not the fighter that's winning the fight that puts horseshoes in his gloves.Terry

Google - Soviet Tanks, Brown Moses, or Elliot Higgins if you'd care to.

[AbruptSLR]

In the never ending case of "the moving goalposts"..... Donald Trump has been moving them again over the last few months.  Remember at first:  "My staff had no conversations with Russians."

That went by the wayside after Jeff Sessions had to recuse himself, and a gaggle of other Trump workers had to admit they had lied or forgot about all the contacts they had.

Then.... they basically said that they had talked to Russians, but it wasn't about colluding with them regarding the election.

Now.... they have been setting themselves up for their next move, which is this:  "OK.... we may have colluded, but it wasn't illegal."

The Justice Dept disagrees with Trump about the legality of collusion

Team Trump is playing word games with the difference between 'collusion' and 'conspiracy'; while Mueller is busy connecting the dots:

Title: "7 legal experts on what Mueller’s Russia indictments mean for Trump"

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/21/17031774/mueller-indictments-russia-trump

Extract: "... special counsel Robert Mueller’s team indicted 13 Russian citizens and three Russian companies, accusing them of conspiring to interfere with the 2016 presidential election and help Donald Trump win the White House.
...
... do the indictments signal where the broader investigation into Trump-Russia collusion might be headed? Second, although the indictment says clearly that Trump’s people “unwittingly” got help from Russians, does that mean that they’re legally protected from prosecution? And finally, in the unlikely event that any of these Russian citizens are indicted, how difficult will it be to prove that they conspired to defraud the United States?
...
Especially intriguing are these words: “and their co-conspirators.” The words are repeated in all counts, in reference after reference to the named defendants. That repetition signals that this indictment presents only half a picture. Yet to come is the mirror image — the identification of and charges against co-conspirators.

Like the already-named defendants, those co-conspirators will be charged with knowledge of alleged crimes, unlike the “unwitting” persons whom this indictment says they exploited. And while resistance to international extradition may shield indicted Russians from US prosecution, it seems likely that some of the alleged co-conspirators will be Americans, fully subject to trial in the United States."

[AbruptSLR]

Connecting the dots:

Title: "Award-winning Russian lawyer just made a damning announcement about Putin and Trump"

https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/06/award-winning-russian-lawyer-just-made-a-damning-announcement-about-putin-and-trump/

Extract: "A Russian lawyer honored by Human Rights Watch just told Australian public television that Vladimir Putin has lots of dirt on Donald Trump from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant held in Moscow."

[sidd]

Hudson on economics behind the new cold war: in his take it is an attempt to get europeans to pay for NATO. I am not sure I agree, but he is spot on in his analysis of the looting of Russia to the tune of 25 billion US$ a year in the nineties.

"And I think this is what this Skripal affair is really all about. The aim by using something as emotional as chemical weapons is to create an anti-Russia hysteria that will enable NATO governments to pick up much more of the military budget than they are now doing from the United States. It will force all their countries to pay 2 percent of their GDP to the U.S. Military-Industrial-Complex. So essentially, the Skripel affair is to frighten populations to enable NATO to try to push through more military spending on the U.S. defense industry and to pick up more of the cost of NATO, when the populations are going to say… wait a minute, the European Eurozone budgets can’t monetize a budget deficit… if we pick up more military spending for NATO than we’re going to have to cut back our social spending and we can’t have both guns and butter. So the Skripal is to try to soften the European population, to frighten it into sayin… yes we better pay for guns, we can do without the butter."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/06/the-economics-behind-the-skripal-poisoning/

sidd

[sidd]

Boris Johnson, David Cameron set up Russian bribe to Tories:

"Russian oligarchs and their associates have given an estimated £826,000 to the Tories since Theresa May became Prime Minister in 2016. "

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16095311.Johnson_admits___160K_tennis_game_with_ex_Russian_minister__39_s_wife/

sidd

[TerryM]

sidd

I'm hugely relieved that the Skripal event does not appear to have served as an immediate precursor to a war with Russia, but dismayed that another failed false flag will be laid at Putin's doorstep, to be brought up whenever casuals discuss Russia.

Headlines in huge fonts proclaim his guilt, but only a small paragraph on page three notes that he really didn't do it at all.

My hope is that May's government falls. Actions like her's, and Boris's, and even the ill mannered fireplace salesman's, demand punishment. It would provide a headline that might serve as a warning to the next politician who believes that he or she can scream Russian Wolf!, and earn the gratitude of the unwashed multitude.

The problem of crying Wolf isn't that the villagers won't believe you when the wolf does arrive, it's that they won't believe you under any circumstance. When a politician has lost her credibility, she isn't long for the office.

A link by a blogger that has nothing to do with the above, but whom I've only today stumbled upon.

https://robinwestenra.blogspot.ca/

Terry

[sidd]

"The problem of crying Wolf isn't that the villagers won't believe you when the wolf does arrive, it's that they won't believe you under any circumstance. When a politician has lost her credibility, she isn't long for the office."

We're way past that now. The rulers have lost control of the narrative. No one believes much that the media oligopolies tell em.

Meanwhile Boris can't resist beating on Corbyn: "Useful Idiot" Coming from Boris, that's a compliment, at least he didn't use another popular label from the old days, "Fellow Traveller"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-08/corbyn-is-russia-s-useful-idiot-in-spy-case-johnson-says

sidd

[AbruptSLR]

The GOP couldn't care less whether Trump is guilty, or not.  All they want to do is to frighten conservative voters for the mid-term election:

Title: "Republicans Seize on Impeachment for Edge in 2018 Midterms"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/politics/trump-impeachment-midterms.html

Extract: "As Republican leaders scramble to stave off a Democratic wave or at least mitigate their party’s losses in November, a strategy is emerging on the right for how to energize conservatives and drive a wedge between the anti-Trump left and moderate voters: warn that Democrats will immediately move to impeach President Trump if they capture the House.

What began last year as blaring political hyperbole on the right — the stuff of bold-lettered direct mail fund-raising pitches from little-known groups warning of a looming American “coup” — is now steadily drifting into the main currents of the 2018 message for Republicans."

[TerryM]

The GOP couldn't care less whether Trump is guilty, or not.  All they want to do is to frighten conservative voters for the mid-term election:

Title: "Republicans Seize on Impeachment for Edge in 2018 Midterms"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/politics/trump-impeachment-midterms.html

Extract: "As Republican leaders scramble to stave off a Democratic wave or at least mitigate their party’s losses in November, a strategy is emerging on the right for how to energize conservatives and drive a wedge between the anti-Trump left and moderate voters: warn that Democrats will immediately move to impeach President Trump if they capture the House.

What began last year as blaring political hyperbole on the right — the stuff of bold-lettered direct mail fund-raising pitches from little-known groups warning of a looming American “coup” — is now steadily drifting into the main currents of the 2018 message for Republicans."

All that the Right needs to point to is one of Buddy's posts.
Rather than noting the damage that Republican policies are doing on so many fronts they're screaming:
Impeach! Impeach! Impeach! & Russiagate! Russiagate! Russiagate!


So far the best they've done is to substitute Bolton for Flynn. Not the right direction at all.


Seats will be lost that Progressive Democrats could have easily won. The "blaring political hyperbole" on the Left - as well as the stifling embrace of corporate ideals will see to that.


Have your mother wear her "vagina hat" to church. See how many converts she makes.
Terry

[wili]

"Have your mother wear her "vagina hat" to church. See how many converts she makes."

Lots, but then it's a pretty liberal church 

[TerryM]

"Have your mother wear her "vagina hat" to church. See how many converts she makes."

Lots, but then it's a pretty liberal church 

Ramen!
Terry

[AbruptSLR]

The GOP couldn't care less whether Trump is guilty, or not.  All they want to do is to frighten conservative voters for the mid-term election:

Eminently rational. The most logical and sane thing to do under the circumstances.

Per Lincoln: 'You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.'  The swing voter can smell the desperation of the GOP 'leadership', which will turn a traditional blue wave into a blue tsunami in November:

Title: "Conservative pollster: ‘I think the Republicans are in deep trouble’ "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/conservative-pollster-‘i-think-the-republicans-are-in-deep-trouble’/ar-AAvD7bV?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Conservative pollster Frank Luntz said on Sunday that he believes Republicans are in danger of losing both chambers of Congress in this year's midterm elections."

[Rob Dekker]

Just brought this over from the Trump thread as I think it's a better fit.

If bellingcat has weighed in for one side, that's a pretty good indicator that they are the guilty party.

Elliot was an unemployed ladies underwear salesman living in his mother's house the last time I had anything to do with him. While calling himself Brown Moses he once insisted that a particular tank was a modern T-90 when it was evident to everyone else that it was actually an antique T-62. He left the blog shortly after that fiasco. The rebels it turned out had "liberated" the vehicle from a static park display and had rebuilt it, at least to the stage that it could be driven about Eastern Ukraine. No one ever produced any evidence that the turret was operational nor that the big gun could actually fire. They did however present lots of before and after photos of the park and it's now missing display.
Elliot insisted that it was a far more modern Russian tank, and proof of a Russian invasion.

Well, let's do some fact-checking on that.
Here is the Brown-Moses blog from 2014 :
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2014/

I see many instances of barrel bomb and chemical attacks in Syria, but nothing about that T-62 in Ukraine, let alone that Brown Moses insisted that it was a T-90, nor that he left the blog at any time.

So it looks like again (like that story about the NATO base that turned out to be a school) a story that you fabricated out of thin air.

If that's not true, please provide a link to your claims.

Brown Moses arguing style is not unlike our own Rob's...

That 'arguing style' is called fact-checking. You should try it sometimes.

Actually, I think Eliot Higgins (Brown Moses) has much more patience than I have with fact-check deniers, so I consider that remark a huge compliment.

[Rob Dekker]

The 'norm' aka the majority is made up of 'Robs' in every 'western orientated nation'.

That's a great relief, because it means that the majority in every 'western oriented nation' cares about fact-checking and reason and rational thought, rather than the dogmatic belief systems that see "false flags" whenever reality mismatches their preconceived opinions.

[Buddy]

Who is the President is from one day to the next rarely if ever makes any difference.

1)  Kennedy vs Nixon:  Cuban missile crisis..... You think Nixon would have had a steady hand to keep the country out of war while at the same time making sure the missiles were removed?

2)  Kennedy vs Nixon:  Desegregation.... you don't think that Nixon would have moved to begin desegregation like Kennedy and Johnson

3)  Nixon vs Humphrey:  Beginning of trade relations with China

4)  Bush vs Gore:  Iraq.... enough said.

5) Obama vs McCain:  The Great Depression.... saving US auto industry

6) Trump vs Hillary Clinton:
     a)  Scott Pruitt and the dismantling of the EPA, global warming, etc., etc, etc.
     b)  Ryan Zinke and the dismantling of the Interior Department
     c)  Wes Tillerson and the dismantling of the State Department
     d)  Betsy Devoss and the minimization of public education
     e)  John Bolton.... which war is he going to start first?
     f)  Wilbur Ross .... I bet the coming trade war will be fun....

These are just SOME of the things off the top of my head.  History is a good teacher ..... IF YOU READ IT.

Rarely ever makes a difference?  Really??? 

[TerryM]

Rob
Do you really believe that Elliot blogs of his own screw-ups?


He used to play with the big boys, before he changed his name and started his bellingcat nonsense. You've been following him, does he still live in his mother's house? Does he still brag of his "Wizards of Warcraft" skills?


His skills are in peddling ladies underwear and Russophobic nonsense.


Are you still insisting that the US Navy builds schools for the sons and daughters of Russian Mariners in Sebastopol because all of the public schools in the US are up to code? Or was that another of Elliot's ideas?


Terry

[Buddy]

For those of you wanting to know more about Robert Mueller.... here is a 33 minute video clip (no commercials) from last night's showing of "Headliners:  Robert Mueller."



After watching it ...... you will understand why Mueller v Trump is an uneven match.  Pretty much like me trying to take on LeBron James in basketball.

[TerryM]

Or the Billionaire vs the Bureaucrat?
Terry

[AbruptSLR]

Once the Democrats retake (at least) the House, Trump's days (as well as the days of other key GOP officials) will be numbered:

Title: "Trump turns out Democratic candidates for midterm elections"

https://www.axios.com/trump-midterms-2018-democrat-candidates-ba410d89-50e9-446a-a2cb-db94e83ef282.html

Extract: "There's no better illustration of President Trump’s impact on the midterm elections than the soaring number of Democratic House candidates running in primaries, with women driving the surge, per the N.Y. Times' Jonathan Martin and Denise Lu.

A comparison: 1,415 Democratic candidates are running in this fall's midterm elections, remarkably similar to the 1,406 Republicans who ran in 2010's midterms. That election saw the Tea Party wave, spurred by President Obama's tenure and the Affordable Care Act."

[AbruptSLR]

Hopefully, the FBI will be watching for Russian attempts to hack the 2018 mid-term elections; and presumably if they find evidence Rosenstein will expand Mueller's scope of work after November 2018:

Title: "The Moscow Midterms - How Russia could steal our next election"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-russia-could-steal-the-midterms/

Extract: "While Americans are well-acquainted with Russian online trolls’ 2016 disinformation campaign, there’s a more insidious threat of Russian interference in the coming midterms. The Russians could hack our very election infrastructure, disenfranchising Americans and even altering the vote outcome in key states or districts. Election security experts have warned of it, but state election officials have largely played it down for fear of spooking the public. We still might not know the extent to which state election infrastructure was compromised in 2016, nor how compromised it will be in 2018."