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Author Topic: Russia, Russia, Russia  (Read 452867 times)

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4050 on: May 23, 2018, 10:57:09 PM »
Mestupid confused rumination with regurgitation 8) Post edited. At least I spelled fuss correctly.

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4051 on: May 24, 2018, 12:54:46 PM »
I suppose this falls under 'Russia, Russia, Russia':

Investigators: Russian missile brought down MH17 over Ukraine

Quote
An international criminal investigating body has concluded that a Russian missile brought down the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in 2014.

In a report released on Thursday, investigators said they have "convincing evidence" to support their report, but no one has been named as the culprit of the case.

All 298 people onboard the aircraft from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur were killed.

At that time, Russian-backed forces were fighting for control of eastern Ukraine.

Moscow has previously denied involvement in the incident.

Of course, as will no doubt be stated, Putin had nothing to do with this. Nothing. No only did he not direct the cowardly, criminal attack, but he wasn't even aware of it. In fact, he doesn't even know what a missile is. Or an airplane. Or anything. He is a saint, a man as pure as the Siberian snow. So leave Vladimir alone!

Oy, vey...


Buddy

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4052 on: May 24, 2018, 04:42:06 PM »
So Donnie got "played" by North Korea.  Who would of thunk it?  Did Donnie REALLY think that Iran and North Korea do things in isolation?  Doesn't Donnie KNOW that North Korea and Iran communicate AND work with each other?  Did Donnie REALLY think that he could just bully North Korea into handing over his nukes at the same time that Donnie is stepping out of another nuclear agreement with Iran?

JUST HOW STUPID IS DONNIE?

So now we are "officially" in much worse shape in the nuclear world.  Because now we have nothing in sight regarding North Korea ...... AND ..... Donnie has "deep sixed" the Iran nuclear deal.  Well done Traitor Trump ..... well done.


FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4053 on: May 25, 2018, 05:47:06 AM »
Seeking the truth and justice in the MH17 case is very close to my heart, so today was a big day, with the MH17 JIT giving an update on the criminal investigation. And what an update it was :



The BUK missile system that shot down MH17 is now officially confirmed to originate from a Russian Army Base.

NPR did the most accurate report :
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/24/613979423/investigators-say-missile-that-downed-mh17-came-from-russian-military

Quote
The missile "originated" from Russia's 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from the city of Kursk in western Russia, Paulissen said — a "part of the Russian armed forces."

This is very important, since now the Russian state is officially determined to be complicit in this atrocity, which has significant legal implications under international law. The Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs cut short his trip to discuss which political and legal steps should now be taken.

Incidentally, Bellingcat already identified the BUK that shot down MH17 as originating from the 53rd brigade back in September 2014, less than 2 months after the plane was shot down :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/
with a much more detailed report in 2016. NPR writes :

Quote
The investigators' findings support earlier conclusions from the U.K. "citizen investigative journalist" group Bellingcat, which said more than two years ago that photographs from the day the plane was shot down linked the Buk missile to Russia's 53rd brigade in Kursk, as NPR's Corey Flintoff wrote at the time.

These guys at Bellingcat just keep on being right, and keeps on being a royal pain in the butt for Putin apologists and other Russian trolls.

To top it off, Bellingcat has their own BIG announcement about MH17 in their own press conference (their first) tomorrow. I'm very curious what they found, but it promises to be a bombshell.
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Alexander555

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4054 on: May 25, 2018, 06:47:42 PM »
And in Venezuela they now know that the US had a feet between the door all the time. Because of the sanctions against Venezuela. And now Maduro won the elections with 68 %. And with an inflation of 14500 % it's not looking good for everything that's related to the US in Latin-America. They don't have much more to lose. And most pro-US governments in Latin-America are not doing very well. So that can turn easily into an anti-American gathering.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 08:01:52 PM by Alexander555 »

sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4055 on: May 26, 2018, 02:43:27 AM »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4056 on: May 26, 2018, 05:52:17 AM »
Look, they found two russians:

Right. But not two ordinary russians.

One was a three-star colonel-general, in charge of structuring the military in Eastern Ukraine :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/12/08/russian-colonel-general-delfin/

and the second one was a high-ranking GRU officer, responsible for all military operations in the Luhansk area :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

Not only does this show that in Eastern Ukraine, the Russian military was in charge of all military operations, (contrary to Russia's denial of involvement) but specifically also that the BUK that shot down MH17 entered Ukraine under GRU control.

Just think about that for a moment about these Bellingcat finding :
The BUK that shot down MH17 appears to have been under Russian Military control at all times. That makes it very unlikely that some rogue "separatist" was responsible for downing MH17 in an "accident".

The Russian Military knows what it is shooting at...
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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4057 on: May 26, 2018, 05:59:48 AM »
Because Putin knew that killing a bunch of European Aids specialists would work in his favor.
Terry

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4058 on: May 26, 2018, 07:43:30 AM »
Because Putin knew that killing a bunch of European Aids specialists would work in his favor.
Terry

You think you can hide behind the "why" question ?
Sorry. You are not in Putin's mind, so you can't.

But if you have an alternative theory that explains the "what", "where", "when" and most specifically "who" questions, please present it. With evidence.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4059 on: May 26, 2018, 08:21:39 AM »
Look, they found two russians:

Right. But not two ordinary russians.

The Russian Military knows what it is shooting at...

Sorry. You are not in the Russian Military's mind, so you can't know that.
  :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Never let the facts get in the way of a good Conspiracy Theory

Oh. You silly man. This is at a whole new level :

Russia has been denying any involvement in Ukraine and MH17 for the past 4 years.
They have lied, and verifiably lied, and then lied about their lies.
And then insulted everyone with their lies.

As this guy puts it :
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/999629210720317440

Quote
Everyone in #Russia's government knew that the 53rd Brigade shot down #MH17.
And they lied about it for 4 years... and awarded the murderers the honor of leading the air-defense sector in the 2016 #Moscow victory parade.

That day #Putin showed the #Netherlands his middle finger.

Enough of the lies and the insults.
Show some respect to the 298 people that died in this atrocity.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4060 on: May 26, 2018, 08:29:41 AM »
But if you have an alternative theory .....

Personally I prefer reality, logic, and proven evidence to anyone's theories and their fantastical beliefs that come with next to zero evidence. Even yours Rob  :)

Here is the thing with the scientific method : logic and evidence can never prove the truth to be true. It can only, if you have enough evidence, prove a false statement to be false.

The evidence suggests that the Russian military was in control of this BUK missile system at all times. Which means the "separatists" are off the hook unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Since the Russian military knows what it is shooting at, this suggests that MH17 was downed deliberately, OR it was a colossal fuck-up by the Russian Military. If it was the latter, Putin could just cooperate with the JIT and bring the officers that fucked up to justice. Instead, Putin decides to deny the whole thing, which suggests the first theory (deliberate downing) is more likely.

Which theory do you prefer, and why ?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 08:35:05 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4061 on: May 26, 2018, 02:59:03 PM »
...
The BUK that shot down MH17 appears to have been under Russian Military control at all times. That makes it very unlikely that some rogue "separatist" was responsible for downing MH17 in an "accident".
...

This is just a speculation, as there is no evidence for that, and your claim is actually quite implausible.
What is lacking, is some understanding of the facts on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, i.e. Donbass. This is, as a matter of fact, Russian country. It's populated by Russians, the only language spoken is Russian. They don't feel they belong to Ukraine. Also, there are lots of highly trained military personell, or ex-military personell in Donbass. You could easily find operators for Buk systems, especially the older ones that date back to the 1980's, like the one that seems to have been used to down MH 17.
There is a lot of mutual interest between Donbass separatists and Russia, and a lot of ways that the separatists could have gotten support, e.g. in the form of military equipment. However, there was never an official policy from Russia to supply the separatists with soldiers or military equipment, and I think it's implausible that the BUK was supplied through official channels.
What the Russian military says:
"In a statement on Friday, the Defense Ministry said the missile engine’s unit number, which indicates that it was manufactured outside Moscow in 1986, proves that the weapon fired at flight MH17 wasn’t in the Russian military’s arsenal, because Russia’s armed forces decommissioned and scrapped all 1986-generation missiles in 2011. The ministry pointed out that Ukraine didn’t receive a single new missile for its Buk missile system after 1991, suggesting that it would likely have needed to rely on older Soviet munitions."

https://meduza.io/en/news/2018/05/25/denials-and-accusations-from-russia-the-netherlands-australia-the-u-s-the-eu-and-nato-follow-new-mh17-findings-by-jit-and-bellingcat

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4062 on: May 27, 2018, 04:28:03 AM »
...
The BUK that shot down MH17 appears to have been under Russian Military control at all times. That makes it very unlikely that some rogue "separatist" was responsible for downing MH17 in an "accident".
...

This is just a speculation, as there is no evidence for that, and your claim is actually quite implausible.

What is it with you guys and not accepting evidence ?
I just showed that a high-ranking Russian GRU officer was responsible for all military operations in the Luhansk area.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/
So the BUK from the 53rd brigade that shot down MH17 was under GRU control inside Ukraine.
That's not 'speculation' any more Hefaistos. A GRU officer was in charge.

What IS speculation is the following :

Quote
What is lacking, is some understanding of the facts on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, i.e. Donbass. This is, as a matter of fact, Russian country. It's populated by Russians, the only language spoken is Russian. They don't feel they belong to Ukraine. Also, there are lots of highly trained military personell, or ex-military personell in Donbass. You could easily find operators for Buk systems, especially the older ones that date back to the 1980's, like the one that seems to have been used to down MH 17.

Now THAT is speculation.
Besides, according to intercepted phone calls, the BUK came "with a crew".
Which would make sense for such a piece of complex military equipment.

Quote
There is a lot of mutual interest between Donbass separatists and Russia, and a lot of ways that the separatists could have gotten support, e.g. in the form of military equipment. However, there was never an official policy from Russia to supply the separatists with soldiers or military equipment, and I think it's implausible that the BUK was supplied through official channels.

Please get your head out of the sand.
No Russian military equipment crosses the border without approval from the Ministry of Defense. It would actually be a crime under Russian law.
Besides, a GRU officer was in charge of the transfer.

Quote
What the Russian military says:
"In a statement on Friday, the Defense Ministry said the missile engine’s unit number, which indicates that it was manufactured outside Moscow in 1986, proves that the weapon fired at flight MH17 wasn’t in the Russian military’s arsenal, because Russia’s armed forces decommissioned and scrapped all 1986-generation missiles in 2011. The ministry pointed out that Ukraine didn’t receive a single new missile for its Buk missile system after 1991, suggesting that it would likely have needed to rely on older Soviet munitions."

Ah. The Russian military said that ? Oh. Then it must be true, because the Russian military never lies.

OK, well, they lied here (starting a few days after MH17 came down) :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/

and they lied about their previous lies here :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/09/26/russian-defence-ministry-presents-evidence-faked-previous-mh17-evidence/

and they lied again on a range of subjects here :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/02/10/truth-behind-russian-embassy-netherlands-russias-strength-truth-branding-proposal/

but surely they would not lie when they said that the 9M38M1 missile (which was used to shoot down MH17) no longer being used by the Russian military, would they ?

Oh. Oops. They lied about that too :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/06/03/evidence-the-russian-military-supplied-the-type-of-missile-used-to-shoot-down-mh17/

Darn. Even Putin was caught with two of them in the background :



And then there is this :
Reuters’ photographs taken on a road near Kamensk-Shakhtinsky (yes that is Russia) dated August 16th 2014 :



And look : The one on the right is labeled 9M38M1 manufactured in 1986.

You know, it doesn't surprise me any more that Russia lies about every aspect of MH17.
What DOES surprise me is how many Putin-apologists like you keep on repeating these lies on this forum.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 05:19:06 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4063 on: May 27, 2018, 06:51:57 AM »
It is in fact a 9K37 SAM system which is only carrying HALF it's full capacity of 8 missiles. It is not in fact a 9M38M1 missile launcher as claimed by Bellingcat. 

9M38M1 is a missile. Not a launcher. Please pay attention.

You can see that 9M38M1 missile (note the long fins) in your video at 1:14 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJPxt7XrG6Q&feature=youtu.be&t=74s

So Bellingcat is right. A 9M38M1 missile was transported on the very same convoy that transported the BUK 3'2 that downed MH17 (which is briefly visible at 6:18 into the video).

Are you a professional denier or something ?
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4064 on: May 27, 2018, 10:32:57 PM »
...
Please get your head out of the sand.
...

Rob, if you don't take the historical context into consideration you will never be able to understand the conflicts simmering along the borders of Russia. These conflicts (Crimea, Donbass, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, etc.) are all within the borders of the former empire of the Soviet Union. These places were together in one country for a very long time, and split up only 27 years ago. they shared the same army, the same technologies, the same everything.
Now, these places are Russias backyard.
A lack of historical understanding makes you blind to how things may come about. Yes, it might be 'forbidden' to send a Buk over the border. Still, it might happen. It might happen with the help of some dollars. It might happen with the help of some helpful people.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4065 on: May 28, 2018, 09:31:05 AM »
It is in fact a 9K37 SAM system which is only carrying HALF it's full capacity of 8 missiles. It is not in fact a 9M38M1 missile launcher as claimed by Bellingcat. 

9M38M1 is a missile. Not a launcher. Please pay attention.

You can see that 9M38M1 missile (note the long fins) in your video at 1:14 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJPxt7XrG6Q&feature=youtu.be&t=74s

So Bellingcat is right. A 9M38M1 missile was transported on the very same convoy that transported the BUK 3'2 that downed MH17 (which is briefly visible at 6:18 into the video).

Are you a professional denier or something ?
(edited post hoc)

Nope. Are you are professional PR rep for Bellingcat and the Ukraine Govt ?

Not true. Not a word of it. Even our own eyes can lie.

Especially if you don't WANT to see the long fins, indicative of a 9M38M1 missile, in the video, right ?
Fine. Plenty of other evidence in that Bellingcat article that Russian military is still using 9M38M1 missiles. This one for example :



or this one, from the 53rd Brigade in 2012 :



Or do you suggest that these are not 9M38M1 missiles either ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4066 on: May 28, 2018, 09:47:07 AM »
ASILurker said :
Quote
Is that a 9M38M1 missile launcher with 9M38M1 missiles loaded onto a low loader truck or not?

Once again, a 9M38M1 is a missile. NOT a launcher. And certainly not both.

Looks very much like the units on the road mentioned above which maybe older versions (?)
There were 3 shown 'ROM' with BN "223", "(5/3?)23"(with 3x9K37 or 9A39M1 missiles? - it very hard to see on the one unit with the 3 missiles), plus one "unknown  #".

A 9K37 and a 9A39M1 are launchers, not missiles.

Quote
So I'm not so certain now (and my head hurts lol)

That's what you get if you deny the evidence and you have no clue what you are talking about.
You are on the right track : That's what you get once you face the evidence that contradicts your pre-conceived opinions.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 05:45:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4067 on: May 29, 2018, 06:14:46 AM »
A lack of historical understanding makes you blind to how things may come about. Yes, it might be 'forbidden' to send a Buk over the border. Still, it might happen. It might happen with the help of some dollars. It might happen with the help of some helpful people.

Despite the evidence to the contrary, let's go with your suggestion for a second :

That the BUK from the 53rd Brigade (Russian military) was passed over to the 'separatists' with the help of some dollars or people, and that these 'separatists' then fucked up and shot down MH17 by 'accident'.

Under that scenario, the Russian Ministry of Defense (and by extension the Russian state) had little responsibility. They only provided the weapon.

So they could just cooperate with the Dutch-led criminal investigation, and bring the responsible 'separatists' to justice. Case closed. No Russia sanctions needed, no international conflict.

So, instead, why did the the Russian Defense Ministry lie through their teeth during their press conference on the 21st of July 2014, just 4 days after the crash ?

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/

And why did even Almaz Antey lie that the 9M38M1 missile was no longer in use by the Russian military ?
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/06/03/evidence-the-russian-military-supplied-the-type-of-missile-used-to-shoot-down-mh17/

And neither was there a need for the Russian state media to spread dozens of conspiracy theories and hundreds of lies about MH17.

There was no need for any of these guys to lie, unless they were instructed from above (Putin) to do so.

And if Putin instructed his own Military to lie, then the likely problem was NOT a few rogue "separatists" who made an "accident". It suggests instead that the problem reached all the way to Putin himself.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:45:36 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Jim Pettit

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4068 on: May 29, 2018, 10:15:52 PM »
A harsh Putin critic just shot himself and the back, and has died.

Quote
Russian journalist and Kremlin critic Arkady Babchenko killed in Kiev

Arkady Babchenko, a Russian journalist critical of the Kremlin, has been killed, say Ukrainian authorities.

Mr Babchenko was shot at his apartment in Kiev on Tuesday evening. He died in an ambulance on the way to hospital. According to Anton Geraschenko, a Ukrainian politician with close links to the police and security services, said that the journalist had left his flat to buy provisions, and was attacked on his return.

"When Arkady opened the door of his flat, the killer cowardly shot him in the back, firing several shots," he wrote on Facebook.

A reminder: Putin absolutely had nothing to do with this. Nothing. He's a saint. St. Vlad. That's what we all call him back in the Motherland.

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4069 on: May 29, 2018, 11:48:48 PM »

Russia is asking everyone to monitor the investigation independently since so few of the murders of journalists in Kiev are ever brought to justice.
"Russia’s Foreign Ministry condemned the murder and urged Ukraine’s authorities, international bodies and NGOs to monitor the investigation closely. The ministry also underlined the alarming level of violence against journalists in Ukraine."


https://www.rt.com/news/428167-russian-journalist-killed-ukraine/

A sketch of the suspect has been distributed.

Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4070 on: May 29, 2018, 11:54:49 PM »
It all kind of makes you wonder why Freedom House thinks that Russia does not hold free elections.

Title: "Liberal democracy"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Edit, see also:

https://freedomhouse.org/
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 12:02:06 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4071 on: May 30, 2018, 04:05:30 AM »
Besides everyone knows that any Russian who votes for Putin and his political party are all delusional fools suffering the effects of propaganda.

It sure looks like it :

MH17: vast majority of Russians believe Ukraine downed plane, poll finds

Independent survey discovers 82% of Russians blame Kiev for downing Malaysia Airlines aircraft with loss of 298 lives

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/mh17-vast-majority-russians-believe-ukraine-downed-plane-poll

Of 1,501 respondents surveyed in Russia's six biggest cities, 46% said they believed a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile was responsible, and 36% said a Ukrainian warplane had shot it down. Only 3% believe the rebels in eastern Ukraine were responsible for shooting down the plane.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4072 on: May 30, 2018, 05:23:06 AM »
It all kind of makes you wonder why Freedom House thinks that Russia does not hold free elections.

Russia does not only score low on the "free elections" question.

They also rate at position 148 out of 180 on "freedom of the press" scale, just behind countries like Bangladesh and Mexico :

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

Quote
Between draconian laws and website blocking, the pressure on independent media has grown steadily since Vladimir Putin’s return to the Kremlin in 2012. Leading independent news outlets have either been brought under control or throttled out of existence. As TV channels continue to inundate viewers with state-run propaganda, the climate has become increasingly oppressive for those who question the new patriotic and neo-conservative discourse or just try to maintain quality journalism. At least five journalists are currently detained in connection with their reporting—an unprecedented number—and more and more bloggers are being jailed. The leading human rights NGOs have been declared “foreign agents.” Murders and physical attacks against journalists continue to go unpunished. Chechnya and Crimea, which was annexed in 2014, have meanwhile become “black holes” from which little news and information emerges.

Ukraine (at position 101) is doing better, but still has a long way to go.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 05:41:14 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4073 on: May 31, 2018, 12:00:53 AM »

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4074 on: May 31, 2018, 05:34:34 AM »
"He dies. He lives. Maybe from now on he will be known as Jesus."

Or more blasphemously, the Skirpals and him can be the trinity. Of which religion, well you choose.

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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4075 on: June 01, 2018, 02:05:30 AM »
All of those journalists dying in Putin's Russia - or living on in the Ukraine. :)



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-30/journalists-killed-russia-after-putin
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4076 on: June 01, 2018, 05:17:20 AM »
All of those journalists dying in Putin's Russia - or living on in the Ukraine. :)
...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-30/journalists-killed-russia-after-putin
Terry

Wikipedia reports quite different numbers. And it has a name with each one :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

For example, in 2009 there were 10 journalists killed in Russia, of which 8 were homicide.
That's quite different from the 3 that zerohedge reports.

And in 2010, another 10 journalists were killed, but your graph from zerohedge does not even mention 2010.

Most other years are no exception. Russia is a dangerous place to be if you are critical of the government.

Your source is zerohedge.com, which is on the propornot.com list, for repeatedly spreading Russian propaganda.

Didn't you at one point (earlier in this thread) promise not to reference zerohedge any more ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4077 on: June 01, 2018, 06:37:14 AM »
71 journalists killed worldwide in 2017 - 2 in Russia or 2.8%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_2017

Even if you ignore the fact that actually 4 journalists were killed in Russia in 2017 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

and take these "2 in Russia" as a fact, then Russia is still in the top 8 most deadly countries in the world for journalists, positioned nicely between war-zone countries like Somalia and Yemen.

https://www.infoplease.com/world/political-statistics/deadliest-countries-journalists

Not a good place to be.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 06:49:58 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4078 on: June 01, 2018, 08:10:28 AM »
Rob

You've neglected to read the article I linked, and that you've seen fit to comment on. The graph I posted is, as noted in the zerohedge article, from an American NGO centered in New York City "The Committee to Protect Journalists".

Perhaps you wish to disparage their work?
https://cpj.org/europe/russia/


Terry




Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4079 on: June 01, 2018, 08:17:42 AM »
Terry,
The link I gave :
https://www.infoplease.com/world/political-statistics/deadliest-countries-journalists
is also using data from the Committee to Protect Journalists.

It still shows that Russia is in the top 8 of most deadly countries in the world for journalists. At least since 1992.

Here is an overview (again using CPJ data) of the deadliest countries since 2000 (around the time that Putin took office) :



Russia is still in the top 8.

Also, the CPJ numbers seem to be very conservative.
In the graph above I see they counted only 26 journalists killed in Russia since 2000.

But the Wikipedia lists 157 journalists killed in Russia since 2000. Most of them homicide. And they list them by name :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 08:47:50 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Pavel

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4080 on: June 01, 2018, 06:20:51 PM »
Well, people. What is your thesis? Is Russia "the country of evil" or what? I don't understand your malevolence. What Russia has made bad for you?

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4081 on: June 02, 2018, 05:43:31 AM »
Well, people. What is your thesis? Is Russia "the country of evil" or what? I don't understand your malevolence. What Russia has made bad for you?

Can you point out ONE post here which shows malevolence towards Russia ?

In fact, I find your statement rather hypocritical. Here is one example :

On July 21, 2014, the Russian Defense Ministry gave a press conference about MH17 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs&feature=youtu.be

We now know they lied in that press conference. They fabricated the flight path of MH17, they doctored photo's that were supposed to show Ukrainian BUKs, and they mis-dated satellite pictures they used in their argument to blame Ukraine. Here is a good article that explains how we know these were all lies :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/07/16/russias-colin-powell-moment-how-the-russian-governments-mh17-lies-were-exposed/

All this while we know now that MH17 was shot down by a BUK from the 53rd brigade in Kursk, under that very same Ministry of Defense.

However, the biggest lie during that press conference was what the Ministry of Defense said about the radar images that they presented :

While they KNEW that one of their own BUKs shot down MH17, they suggesting the radar reflections detected "close to MH17" were Ukrainian SU-25's, while it was pretty clear even at the time that these were the the pieces of MH17 breaking up, while 298 innocent people were falling to their death.

If there was ever an act of malevolence, that was it.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:05:47 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4082 on: June 02, 2018, 07:11:15 AM »
There's a saying that goes "The nail that sticks up will be pounded in."

There are FAR too many gullible people who don’t take the time to look harder for the Truth. And FAR too many people have been persuaded that if enough of the "right" kind of people say it often enough it must be true. As Mark Twain said: “It’s easier to con someone, than it is to convince him he has already been conned.”

We must not underestimate how powerful the conditioning narrative has been of 'it's bad to be radical'. Nowadays, if you have radically different ideas, you are immediately branded a 'conspiracy theorist' who engages in 'magical thinking'. It sometimes frightens me to see how uncritically this conditioning is spread by those who are conditioned themselves. All it leads to is conformism, apathy and spiritual shallowness. Nothing has ever changed for the better because of a shallow non-radial thinking conformist person. Nothing.

Thankfully the Laws of Nature and Cause and Effect may still eventually teach us the lessons we're not able to learn by Free Will.

There's another saying that goes like this "Give a dog a bad name and it sticks."

Spot on. And especially applies to Russia, where government propaganda continues to blame Ukraine for the downing of MH17 :

MH17: vast majority of Russians believe Ukraine downed plane, poll finds

Independent survey discovers 82% of Russians blame Kiev for downing Malaysia Airlines aircraft with loss of 298 lives

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/mh17-vast-majority-russians-believe-ukraine-downed-plane-poll

Of 1,501 respondents surveyed in Russia's six biggest cities, 46% said they believed a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile was responsible, and 36% said a Ukrainian warplane had shot it down. Only 3% believe the rebels in eastern Ukraine were responsible for shooting down the plane.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4083 on: June 02, 2018, 07:56:26 AM »
.....
With all the above being backed in 100% by the U.S. Government and others in the air campaign coalition, and the response by the US, UK and France over the false flag staged Douma 'chemical attack' in April 2018 that had nothing to do with Syrian Govt or Army and every thing to do with the Head-choppers PR Propaganda campaign 100% supported and dutifully facilitated by the likes of Eliot Higgins Bellingcat UK and the Atlantic Council US yet again.

In your rant you forgot to blame the White Helmets.
It's quite popular to do so among Assad-lovers like yourself.
Was that an oversight ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4084 on: June 02, 2018, 08:13:03 AM »
I respect the evidence and the truth where ever it leads.

OK. The evidence leads us to a BUK from the 53rd Brigade in Kursk.
Here is one comparison :


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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4085 on: June 02, 2018, 09:24:39 AM »
Interesting how you keep on changing the subject when presented with evidence.

I respect the evidence and the truth where ever it leads. Absent hard credible evidence that has been properly collected, evaluated, checked and tested by experts with credible qualifications and authority then I withhold any judgment and am only too happy to remain in a state of uncertainty.

Well, no longer a need to remain in a state of uncertainty :
Here is a presentation of credible evidence, that has been properly collected, evaluated, checked and tested by experts with credible qualifications and authority :



They conclude the same as Bellingcat did 3.5 years ago : There is one and only one BUK TELAR that matches with the BUK that took down MH17 on July 17, 2014, and that is a specific BUK from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:30:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4086 on: June 02, 2018, 07:13:18 PM »
Who likes polls and what people want to believe?

 Around 55 percent of Russians believe the authorities are waging a successful war against corruption, with 47 percent saying that arrests of senior officials for bribery are the best proof of this.

In a survey conducted by state-run VTSIOM agency in late May, 55 percent of the respondents said they have noticed the positive results of the nationwide anti-corruption campaign; 25 percent said they cannot see the results of the campaign, and 13 percent said the situation with corruption is getting worse.

The cynic in me says that the anti-corruption campaign might only be directed at those enriching themselves without the approval of Putin and the oligarch cabal he heads.  These smaller fry are competitors, after all.

sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4087 on: June 03, 2018, 01:49:25 AM »
Malaysia not on the bus:

[Malaysian transport minister] Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."

"But who's responsible - you can't just pinpoint at Russia,"

"the final report on MH370, the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that disappeared in March 2014 with 239 people onboard, will be released in July. "

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/no-conclusive-evidence-russia-behind-mh17-downing-malaysia-10290266

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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4088 on: June 03, 2018, 05:38:26 AM »
 

1) Where is your evidence refs to support your claim? Because your cynical, subjective and biased judgmental opinion is not a universal fact.
 

A public discussion forum is not about stating universal facts.

Putin says his wealth is modest. Critics say he is worth up to $70-billion
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-putins-declared-modest-wealth-not-in-line-with-critics-estimates/

The Cat is just the biggest Rat.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4089 on: June 03, 2018, 06:39:28 AM »
 

1) Where is your evidence refs to support your claim? Because your cynical, subjective and biased judgmental opinion is not a universal fact.
 

A public discussion forum is not about stating universal facts.

Putin says his wealth is modest. Critics say he is worth up to $70-billion
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-putins-declared-modest-wealth-not-in-line-with-critics-estimates/

The Cat is just the biggest Rat.

Nice avoidance. Feel free to dance around the elephant in the room for as long as you imagine you can get away with it.

As to the coment above, well of course Putin's declared wealth is not in line with critics. Neither is Trumps. Or the Clintons. Or Poroshenkos. Or Macrons. Or Najib Razaks. Or Netanyahus.

Did you actually have a point worth making Steve? Or is the Globe and Mail pure gold for you when it comes to "high-quality information and analysis?

The Globe and Mail of Canada is a generally respected newspaper.  If you prefer, I could cite sources such as  Bloomberg, probably Washington Post, Forbes, or NYT.  There's little doubt that Putin is massively wealthy.

To suggest that Putin should be considered to have benefited Russia by kicking out lower oligarchs while he is inhaling at the trough is quite a distortion.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4090 on: June 03, 2018, 08:05:21 AM »
Malaysia not on the bus:

[Malaysian transport minister] Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."

"But who's responsible - you can't just pinpoint at Russia,"

"Of course we have to take into consideration diplomatic relations," he said.

This guy Luke has his logic all twisted.

Since when are "diplomatic relations" a logical argument in determining the facts ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4091 on: June 03, 2018, 08:23:43 AM »
Malaysia lost 43 citizens on MH17, and 50 citizens on MH370.

Yet one of the first things the new government does is stop the search for MH370, and question the MH17 JIT findings. Because OMG "diplomatic relations" may be affected.

It sure looks like the new government does not want to deal with any past issues.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4092 on: June 04, 2018, 01:08:38 AM »
"Russia's problems pale into insignificance alongside Americas deep dysfunctions"

Wait, what ? I thought this thread was about blaming Russia for everything. For example, I suspect Putin is paying one of the barn cats to trip me up when i am in the hayloft to expose the contradictions inherent in Western Capitalism.

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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4093 on: June 04, 2018, 01:59:45 AM »
Richard Stengler, former Times Editor, former Under Secretary of State and current Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council voiced his approval of propaganda aimed at domestic US populations and populations of the third world.

As a Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council I'd expect no less. The Atlantic Council after all found a place for the outlandish tales of Elliot Higgins. As a former Under Secretary of State under John Kerry's leadership, his advocacy of domestic propaganda is again to be expected. Kerry's personal lack of candor was such that the Russians found him impossible to negotiate with.

In his role as the editor of Time Magazine I foolishly expected more from him. The American people really don't need to be lied to, even when the liers believe that the lies are for their own good.

https://en.wikipedia.orlg/wiki/Richard_Stengel
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4094 on: June 05, 2018, 09:48:41 AM »
Yes, don't try to tell me that Russia is not democratic and has corrupt elections while ignoring what goes on the U.S.A. at every level for decades.

Sure. Once Putin stops killing his adversaries (Boris Nemtsov), or ruling them out of the elections (Alexei Navalny) and start imposing term limits, then maybe I will start to believe your poorly argued what-about-isms.
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4095 on: June 05, 2018, 10:11:25 PM »
As much as I am interested in world politics and US politics in particular, I'm going to unsubscribe/unnotify from these discussions, so I can fully focus on the Arctic. I've learned a lot from these discussions, so my thanks go out to everyone participating in them.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4096 on: June 06, 2018, 03:00:53 AM »
If Trump cannot yet help Putin with relief on sanctions, apparently he can help him by creating a vacuum that Putin can fill in Europe:

Title: "Putin Moves to Capitalize on Europe’s Fury With Trump"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-moves-to-capitalize-on-europe’s-fury-with-trump/ar-AAygDAx?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "Russian President Vladimir V. Putin arrived in Austria on Tuesday sensing an opportunity almost unimaginable just months ago: to overhaul frosty relations with a European Union infuriated by President Trump on a host of issues from climate and Iran to, most recently, tariffs and trade.

Never mind that Mr. Putin was until recently virtually a pariah in Europe after his military interventions in Ukraine, Crimea and Syria; after meddling in European elections and working hard to foment right-wing populist uprisings throughout the continent; after polluting the political environment with fake news; and after allegedly poisoning a former Russian spy and his daughter in Britain, charges Russia denies.

Mr. Putin was now gaining considerable traction by casting himself as a reliable friend and trading partner to Europe even as the Trump Administration was treating its closest allies there as strategic and economic competitors."
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4097 on: June 07, 2018, 05:06:07 AM »
Something that I noticed on these political threads of the ASIF as well, especially in ASILurker :

"Genocide-denying charlatans have poisoned the Left"

https://capx.co/genocide-denying-charlatans-have-poisoned-the-left/

It seems there a a group of people on the left (many of them here on the ASIF) who are willing to deny atrocities and genocide committed by Russia and Syrian and Serbian governments just because of their hatred of the US.

That's not right, folks.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4098 on: June 07, 2018, 06:56:59 AM »
Very interesting. Spoken like a genuine 'delusional mad man' might speak.

The big issue for Rob now is his latest conspiracy theory about ASILurker .... I am not surprised one bit. Are you?

Interesting. Now you are even denying that you previously denied for example the chemical attack in Douma.

Do I need to remind you that when confronted with evidence of the chemical attack in Douma, you had some outlandish theory to 'prove' that there was never a chemical attack ?
Oh, yes, here it is :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg154616.html#msg154616

Quote
1) The cylinder was planted on the patio before the 7th of april or on the night.
2) The cylinder was partly full with gas, and not necessarily chlorine.
3) There was a 'headchopper' on the patio when the video was taken.
4) Using a spanner he removed the tap/regulator, called down to the guys below and said "Hey ok, start videoing, the tank has frosting on it it now! Quick! Hurry up! Allahu Akbar my brothers!"
5) OR the tap was opened first until it was empty and then he used a spanner to remove the tap without the pressure in the tank.
6) The dead bodies were already dead for a day or several days before the 7th april.
7) They planted the bodies at the scene (not in the basement) as shown in the video.
8) Several minutes before the video was taken someone went around and sprayed white foam into the noses and mouths of some of the bodies. 

Yet, you had NO evidence for ANY of these points. Nothing.
That's what happens when you start to deny war crimes.

That's not right ASILurker. That's not right.

The problem is, ASILurker is not alone in denying atrocities and even genocide.
As pointed out in the article I linked to :
https://capx.co/genocide-denying-charlatans-have-poisoned-the-left/

even guys like Herman, who co-authored with Noam Chomsky, is denying the Srebrenica massacre.

There is a wider problem here, where some on the far left are denying or whitewashing atrocities committed by Russia, Syria, and Serbia, driven by hatred of the US, and they are poisoning the left.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 07:15:18 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4099 on: June 07, 2018, 08:03:26 AM »
The sooner you stop manipulating what was said and what I posted and stop lying about myself the sooner you won't appear so silly and incompetent on this matter.

Huh ? "manipulating what was said" ? I quoted you, and gave a link to where you said it.
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