The Russiagate conspiracy theory

[Neven]

This thread is for discussing every aspect of the alleged (and allegedly successful) attempts by the Russian government to influence the last American presidential elections.

Have at it.

[TerryM]

Wow
A bold move going straight to the heart of the matter.


We, the Democrats, progressives, liberals, environmentalists, or whatever we call ourselves today face a pivotal decision. Do we accept blame for the outcome of the recent election, or do we externalize it, blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders?


Both positions can be defended. Many feel that externalizing blame is a healthy response when recrimination, depression, or a bad self image would result from taking full responsibility for some action.
I can't come up with a great example, and Wili doesn't like my analogies anyway. As a matter of fact it's almost a certainty that Wili's comment has affected me deeply and it's his fault that I'm unable to defend this statement properly.
Fortunately, as this wasn't my fault, it won't have a detrimental effect on my writing & I'll be able to continue with confidence.


See, piece of cake. it was all his fault. 


Others believe that by internalizing the blame, we can learn from it and correct the mistake. Somehow we lost an election that we should have had in the bag. Someone or something is responsible. Someone must pay.
We've been winning, and losing, elections the way we fought this one for decades. Most alive today don't remember when we ran on big government, to better help those in need. Most don't remember when a president, one of ours, sacrificed the "Southern Block", because Civil Rights was more important.
Most alive today believe that the only way to beat Republicans is to emulate their programs, their tactics, and their funding.


It's not true, but it is accepted as fact.


If Putin, or anyone outside of our party structure is responsible for our failure, then we can crush him, and drive straight to the finish line. Don't change a thing, the results will be different because we will have removed that which blocked our path.
Everyone stays on the payroll, everyone marches in place.
Life is good, the sun is shining and the birds are in full throat - until the next election.


If Putin, or Assange, or whoever, wasn't actually responsible for our demise, then we're going through the same motions, doing the same things, and expecting different results. Parties can't be crazy, political movements can't be crazy, we can't be crazy - oh shit !!! Crazy people never believe they're crazy.
Could blaming Putin for our mistakes be a sign that we're crazy?


If he's not guilty, I still don't like him, so what could it hurt to ruffle his feathers.


He's got bombs - BIG BOMBS
We let N Korea slide for years because they had small bombs, and not many of them.
And Putin not only has BIG BOMBS, he's got LOTS of BIG BOMBS
We're after Trump, not Putin. - Yea, yea, but does Putin know that? for sure?


When Trump's poll numbers were down he found a magic formula for INSTANT POPULARITY !!
All he had to do was talk tough, fire some missiles and drop the biggest conventional 16 million dollar bomb we had. Wow. what a warrior, he even spoiled his guest's dessert. What a man, where do I put my X on his ballot.


If Trump had bombed England, or Holland or Canada, they'd have sent the guys in white coats after him. Asked how we ever let such a monster into the White House.
So, if Russia, and Syria, and Afghanistan were seen as friendlies, Trump would lose his get out of jail free card.


It's up to you guys, I'm in a foreign country and therefor unable to alter your votes.
In 200+ years no foreigner was ever able to alter the outcome of one of your elections.
When Britannia ruled the sea, and the world, she couldn't change American elections.
A shame that the outcome will never again be trusted, by anyone.


Terry

[Buddy]

Wouldn't you just know it.  Someone who thinks "RussiaGate" is a fraud and a "non-event" and a waste of time.......TERRY IS THE FIRST ONE TO POST ON THE THREAD.  THAT...is a good one....I'm still chuckling...

The three most outspoken people on this site against even DOING the RussiaGate investigations are living in Canada, Austria, and Australia.  I find that fascinating as well.....

So when Trump doesn't finish his term in office, and has to resign or be impeached.....or removed otherwise.....I guess it won't be because of the RussiaGate scandal.  It will be due to all the pressure that was put on him against his anti-science policies.....or anti EPA policies....or his anti women policies.....or his anti minority policies.  Yea....THAT will be the reason he leaves office....

By the way.....I liked the Noam Chomsky video that Nevin posted.  I agree with some of the things that Noam states.  It certainly IS hypocritical for the US to get angry with others that try to involve themselves in our election.  ABSOLUTELY AGREE.  But that DOES NOT MEAN YOU LET OTHERS EFFECT YOUR OWN ELECTIONS.  It should mean:  Quit screwing with other country's elections.  It DOESN'T mean that we should be both hypocritical AND stupid (by letting others mess with our elections).

By the way....Noam has stated in an interview, that he thinks there IS a possibility that Russia DID involve themselves in our election.  Just to get that on the record.

And...that is why they are doing the investigations:  Because there are SOOOO many dots that lead in that direction.  WAY TOO MANY TO IGNORE.  I know......Ready, Aim, Fire.....instead of Fire, Ready, Aim.  Who would 'a thunk it?

And again....because our political crooks are apparently more advanced than those in Canada (and Australia).......our crooks don't admit they did it UNTIL AFTER THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY....not before.  That is why we do investigations FIRST.  Terry...please send us your crooked Canadian politicians.  That will make it much easier on us if they admit guilt right after they do their dirty deeds instead of having to do those darn investigations.




 

[Archimid]

TerryM I think your argument is naive. Putin had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to shift the world to a more favorable state and he took it. This state is highly unfavorable for most people of the WORLD, but it is favorable to Putin's expansionist desires.

Means:  Propaganda has survived all of human history and even thrived in the modern day? Because it works. It works so well that you can get groups of people to do almost anything you want. Governments use it, private organizations use it, religions use it. You name it, it works.

That's what Putin (not the Russians) used to manipulate the election. They moved illegally obtained information through dark channels in a way that Trump "advisors" would see it.

Motive: Among the policies that are highly favorable to Putin's expansionist interest are climate change denial, increased fossil fuel consumption and breaking the EU and NATO. Climate change denial gives future Russia a more favorable weather(they think) and thousands of miles of new coast because of the ice less Arctic. It also may raise average temperatures over what is today mostly frozen tundra. Increase fossil fuel consumption favors Putin personally. He just wants more money. Breaking the current world order gives him space to expand.


Opportunity: 1st Donald Trump is vulnerable to his greed. Show him the money and he will do anything. 2nd Donald Trump is a fool.  By using proxies like Michael Flynn (who was taking money from Turkey and didn't disclose it) and Carter Page (who was monitored by order of a FISA court) they introduced ideas and policy that sounded great for greedy Trump but in reality they benefit Putin's plans.

Among the policies that are highly favorable to Putin's expansionist interest are climate change denial, increased fossil fuel consumption and breaking the EU and NATO. Climate change denial gives future Russia a more favorable weather(they think) and thousands of miles of new coast because of the ice less Arctic. It also may raise average temperatures over what is today mostly frozen tundra. Increase fossil fuel consumption favors Putin personally. He just wants more money. Breaking the current world order gives him space to expand.


He had the means, motive and opportunity to set the world in a position that is much more favorable to him. What if he got caught? He knew that what is happening now would happen. The Republicans will chose the power Trump  offers them over preserving the US. Even if they don't, the US can't go to war over this. That is MAD.

So worst case scenario for Putin, Trumps realizes he is being played. But that is covered by condition 2. The man is a fool.






NEVEN:

I think the Thread is not appropriately named. Russia, the people of Russia or the land of Russia  had nothing to do with this. This was executed by a dictator who kills opposition and is expanding through the use of the military. I would call the thread Putingate. Personally I love Russians. Every single one I've met are excellent people.

[oren]

At the risk of posting though I'm not American, I agree with both previous posts,  I just need to add to Archimid's opportunity analysis the fact that the odds were similar between both sides to begin with. As the Republicans are for big business while the Democrats are supposedly for the little persons, who have been screwed repeatedly in past years even when ignoring climate change and all other "borrow from future little persons" schemes, one would naively expect the Democrats to achieve a decisive edge. They did not and thus were vulnerable to outside intervention, FBI intervention and so on.
Maybe lulling the differences between the parties is not working. Maybe some good-intentioned strongly-spoken populist like Bernie who could tear the masks from the political process is what they should have gone for. I wish they had. I wish my country had someone like that.
This is somewhat OT to this thread, but is the reason it could exist in the first place.
And yes, Putin could have done it.

[Zeug Gezeugt]

This thread should die a natural death shortly just as the RUSSIAGATE MEME has already done in the US corporate media and domestic political circus. It has served its purpose, Trump has kowtowed to the war hawks and the US has committed more international war crimes, largely applauded by the US war party Democrats and their now CRIMINALLY INSANE 'leftist progressive' base.

Congratulations to you Russophobes, you went FULL RETARD and managed to bend your dodgy real estate salesman reality TV star president back towards MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN via the continued and decades long threat of UNCHALLENGED GLOBAL VIOLENCE, but I'm afraid now your services are no longer required.

I'm also afraid that history may not look kindly on the contribution of Russiagate to 21st C attempts to collectively deal with climate change. For as the late great Kirk Lazarus once said, "YOU WENT FULL RETARD, MAN. NEVER GO FULL RETARD!"

[Herfried]

Trump, likewishe some Bushes before him proves well, the real war-party are rhe criminal right wing madguys from the Rrepublicans, a danger to the US and the whole world. But congratulation to have a showman as president who has only one political program: To maximize his personal company profit by his presidency.

Yor going the way down to Cleptocrathy. So be proud.

[Neven]

NEVEN:

I think the Thread is not appropriately named. Russia, the people of Russia or the land of Russia  had nothing to do with this. This was executed by a dictator who kills opposition and is expanding through the use of the military. I would call the thread Putingate. Personally I love Russians. Every single one I've met are excellent people.

I fully agree, but this is the name of the meme that was invented by people who want us to return to the Cold War-era and try to make us believe that the only choice we have, is between group of kleptocrats A and group of kleptocrats B.

[johnm33]

John McAfee said that if the Russians did affect the election then the NSA would have chapter and verse, and no problem showing proof, unless they were astonishingly incompetent. Since the USA only intereferes in those countries elections where they have an embassy you'd think they would be a little ahead of the curve in how to protect themselves from external influence. How was this interference manifest? propaganda? vote rigging? disenfranchisement?
Numerous american commentators JMG and Ian Welsh among them were talking about the extensive grassroots support of Trump, evidenced by posters all over some of the impoverished districts they know, which somehow pollsters were calling for the democrats. From a distance it looks like the democrat party machine believed it's own b/s and worse still does, unable to credit the fact that the constituency they thought they owned woke up to the fact of their betrayal. I know blame the Russians.

[Archimid]

I am not a democrat, liberal or progressive. I believe in small government, gun rights and personal freedom.  I also did not favor Clinton for the election. She voted for the Iraq war and the patriot act. In my book that can not be forgiven.

SO to all of you trying to paint me as a sore loser, sorry your argument is way off. As a matter of fact I knew Trump was going to win the elections as soon as he announced his candidacy, regardless of outside help. We had a black president.  That hurt many xenophobes deeply and drove their fear through the roof. Trump was the natural reaction.

No. Putingate is not about elections anymore. It is about policies. Donald Trump policies are highly influenced by the best interests of Putin  and they work against the best interest of the US and in the case of climate change denial, all citizens of the world.

[Archimid]

Neven, I understand the reason for your title and it is indeed the best title since that is the coined term. I just mention that because it is important to note that our enemy is not the people of Russia, but the dictator in charge of Russia, who has expansionist intentions, who suppresses dissent in his own country and is attempting gaslight the world.

[prokaryotes]

While i think it is important to point out flaws in general, regarding everything elections, my impression is that the media has put too much emphasis when discussing Russia's alleged involvement. It appears that this is especially a trust issue with voter base, if you have many from the left political spectrum (Jimmy Dore, Chomsky among many others), and independent security analysts pointing out flaws with that argument. Basically when it comes to digital transmission (who done it, who accessed etc etc), everything can be faked.

On the bottom line, votes, elections, should only be done on paper ballots.   

On the other hand political arguments would be much stronger when you would focus on Trump's business ties and political actions involving Russia.

[Jim Pettit]

We, the Democrats, progressives, liberals, environmentalists, or whatever we call ourselves today face a pivotal decision. Do we accept blame for the outcome of the recent election, or do we externalize it, blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders?

Since the real world is seldom so binary, how about a third and far more productive option?

How about the Democratic Party--and all progressives--take a deep and honest inventory of who we are and what we are, and make the many obvious and necessary changes to becoming better? How about we toss out the old thought patterns, jettison the old methods, get rid of the stale party leaders, toss overboard the Blue Dogs and the wobbly-kneed Republican-wannabe Third Way types? How about we scour our ranks of great individuals, train them to lead, and start running them for office? How about we hold our party's leader's feet to the fire when they fail to provide sufficient support for solid progressive candidates in winnable races? How about we resist and protest the Right's every bigoted or anti-science or un-American move? How about we call out Trump's every indefensible action? How about we hold the media accountable? How about we stop running from the labels "liberal" and "progressive", and instead embrace them and let people know that many of the good things they have in life are courtesy of the Left, things which the Right wants to take away? How about we take all those olive branches and peace offerings Obama gave to the GOP in the spirit of "compromise" and burn them in a huge bonfire of "go to hell"?

We're doing all that. All of that, and more. I'm not saying we're there--we're nowhere close--but we're making great progress in many areas.

But alongside--and NOT instead of--all that, how about we also at the same time look at the number of unignorable external factors that led to our November losses so we can avoid repeating them? Realizing just how badly Comey's letter hurt Clinton's numbers doesn't mean we're "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders". Rooting out possibly treasonous actions by US citizens isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders". Investigating just how profoundly agents of a hostile foreign entity were able to subvert our democratic process is in no way equal to "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Calling out the New York Times for its months of misleading and breathless and baseless anti-Clinton Emails! articles while treating the entertaining and quotable talk show celebrity running for President as, well, just an entertaining and quotable talk show celebrity isn't even close to "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Fighting widespread GOP-led voter suppression efforts isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Doing something about runaway GOP gerrymandering isn't anywhere in the same ballpark as "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders." Noting the modern inadequacies of the Electoral College, a system that gives far more power to a voter from, say, Wyoming than it does one from California or New York isn't "blaming everyone but ourselves and our parties leaders.".

It just isn't.

I'm not sure where or how the lazy meme started that says we on the Left can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but it needs to stop. We have the greatest minds. We have the greatest humanitarians. We have the creators, the inventors, the scientists, the artists, the honest and inquiring minds, the compassionate and caring and nurturing people. So we can look at our myriad of systemic party problems and do something about them. But we can also look at external factors and try to do something about them, too.

...I knew Trump was going to win the elections as soon as he announced his candidacy, regardless of outside help. We had a black president.  That hurt many xenophobes deeply and drove their fear through the roof. Trump was the natural reaction.

Sad but true; racism was indeed a large factor in the number of votes Trump received. So was misogyny. We have to work on that. Not for the future of the Democratic Party, but for the future of democracy itself.

[prokaryotes]

How about we stop running from the labels "liberal" and "progressive", and instead embrace them and let people know that many of the good things they have in life are courtesy of the Left, things which the Right wants to take away?

Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

! No longer available

[Archimid]

Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.

[prokaryotes]

Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.

I would think that is the way to go, because it eliminates the noise from the facts. The evolution of politics, our future .... how long will it take? It would also possibly mean the best possible environment for prosperity.

[Buddy]

Sometime shortly after May 2nd....Sally Yates will be testifying in PUBLIC in front of the House Intelligence Committee meeting.  As well....former CIA Director John Brennan and James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence will also be testifying.

http://www.nbcnews.com/card/former-acting-ag-sally-yates-testify-publicly-russia-probe-n749481

Sally Yates had warned the White House in January about Michael Flynn not being accurate with his comments about his meetings with the Russian ambassador.  I believe that VP Pence had to be aware of those comments from Sally Yates.  And yet....it took Trump almost 3 full weeks to fire Flynn.

This is going to be interesting testimony for sure...... 

[Buddy]

Keep in mind that MOST of the issues surrounding Trump....are related to RussiaGate, if only indirectly.  They are RELATED....because they all affect Donnie's approval rating....and THAT is what will, along with the actual evidence.....take Donnie down eventually.  Because if his approval ratings sink into the 20's.....people in the House and Senate take notice.

So...when Donnie is an absolute idiot....and "congratulates" someone for getting the purple heart, instead of thanking him for his sacrifice and his service......THAT effects RussiaGate.

When Donnie gets SLAMMED for his idiotic policies regarding the EPA or global warming....THAT effects RussiaGate.

When Donnie is a slob to his wife.......THAT effects RussiaGate.

Donnie is going to continue to make mistake after mistake over the coming weeks and months.  And they will ALL effect RussiaGate.  And in return.....RussiaGate will also effect many of those other issues.  It is a two way street with global warming or the EPA for example.

The continued disclosures in RussiaGate are going to make many of the people concerned about the EPA or climate change......EVEN MORE CONCERNED and MORE DETERMINED TO ACT.  So this is NOT a one way street.

The process continues......

[prokaryotes]

When Donnie is a slob to his wife.......THAT effects RussiaGate

The best arguments are those made based on the major issues, if you write a story about how he leaves a plane without his woman, then this is interference, just not really news. However, people take notice of such subtle details, some things do not have to be communicated. Focus on the major issues, such as a climate denier who sued EPA, leads it now, and what he does, what he said - threatening clean air and water, and climate disruption. Now, you get attention from the average Joe. If you focus too much on the details,  or too vague claims, small slips, you lose credibility, or let's say you over bombard the attention spans with small stuff. Focus on the big picture.

[AbruptSLR]

Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

+1


Can you imagine a world where policy is based on the best science and policy changes to meet new data?  Too bad we are prisoners of the lawyers and their cognitive dissonance based system.

I would think that is the way to go, because it eliminates the noise from the facts. The evolution of politics, our future .... how long will it take? It would also possibly mean the best possible environment for prosperity.

You might want to take a quick look at the linked Wikipedia article entitled: "Technocracy":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

Extract: "Technocracy is a system of governance where decision-makers are selected on the basis of technological knowledge. Scientists, engineers, technologists, or experts in any field, would compose the governing body, instead of elected representatives. Leadership skills would be selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than parliamentary skills. Technocracy in that sense of the word (an entire government run as a technical or engineering problem) is mostly hypothetical. In another commonly used sense, technocracy is any portion of a bureaucracy that is run by technologists in technically and analytically sound ways.

The term technocracy was originally used to advocate the application of the scientific method to solving social problems. In such a system, the role of money, economic values, and morals could be eliminated altogether. Concern would be given to sustainability within the resource base, instead of monetary profitability, so as to ensure continued operation of all social-industrial functions. Some uses of the word refer to a form of meritocracy, where the ablest are in charge, ostensibly without the influence of special interest groups. The word technocratic has been used to describe governments that include non-elected professionals at a ministerial level."


Also see the following linked Wikipedia article entitled: "Technocracy movement"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement

Extract: "In a publication from 1938 Technocracy Inc. the main organization made the following statement in defining their proposal.

'Technocracy is the science of social engineering, the scientific operation of the entire social mechanism to produce and distribute goods and services to the entire population of this continent. For the first time in human history it will be done as a scientific, technical, engineering problem. There will be no place for Politics or Politicians, Finance or Financiers, Rackets or Racketeers. Technocracy states that this method of operating the social mechanism of the North American Continent is now mandatory because we have passed from a state of actual scarcity into the present status of potential abundance in which we are now held to an artificial scarcity forced upon us in order to continue a Price System which can distribute goods only by means of a medium of exchange. Technocracy states that price and abundance are incompatible; the greater the abundance the smaller the price. In a real abundance there can be no price at all. Only by abandoning the interfering price control and substituting a scientific method of production and distribution can an abundance be achieved. Technocracy will distribute by means of a certificate of distribution available to every citizen from birth to death. The Technate will encompass the entire American Continent from Panama to the North Pole because the natural resources and the natural boundary of this area make it an independent, self-sustaining geographical unit.'"

[prokaryotes]

...
...

If you ever want to publish your thoughts to a wider audience, let me know.

[AbruptSLR]

...
...

If you ever want to publish your thoughts to a wider audience, let me know.

prokaryotes,

Over the next month, or two, I will endeavor to put some posts in the "Adapting to the Anthropocene" thread related my thought of how the Technocracy movement could be updated to function in the coming 4th Industrial Revolution (including with a functioning 'quantum Internet' beginning circa 2030); which may be able to take sufficient root to partially survive the coming socio-economic collapse circa 2050 to 2060.  You can decide whether you like what I post there, or not.

Best,
ASLR

[Jim Pettit]

Or stop dividing in terms of the left and right entirely, and just focus on science based policy

If the left and the right were separated by small matters of ideology, minor differences in policies and opinions, I'd agree that such an idea might work. The problem is, of course, that the two sides are very divided at the moment. One side believes in and supports science and science-based policies; the other side belittles scientists and dismisses science. One side believes that the planet belongs to all of us and should be treated as such; the other side believes profit should be the primary driver behind anything and everything, with those who make the most profit setting the rules. One side believes that this nation is better when people with different ethnic and religious backgrounds are added to the mix; the other side fears anyone who isn't white and Christian. One side believes America functions best when wealth distribution isn't quite so lopsided; the other side's every policy is based on the idea that poor people have too much money and rich people don't have enough.

Those are some wide and massive chasms, and the illustrate just how very far apart the two sides are. Clearly focusing on science-based policies will help bridge those chasms. But we are, unfortunately, a long way from there.

[Martin Gisser]

this is the name of the meme that was invented by people who want us to return to the Cold War-era and try to make us believe that the only choice we have, is between group of kleptocrats A and group of kleptocrats B.

The thing is about kleptocrats A and kleptocrats B joining forces. Folks were voting for the worst possible scenario for them personally and for the planet. Trump's election is paradigmatic case of the suigenocidal tendencies growing stronger in the Late Homo S Sapiens who refuses upright walk of the brain. The madness has now become serious madness. Who will win this "information" war over the future of mankind and planet? Yes, war!...

And Putin's internet trolls and bots were of great help. I've seen them work. I have seen American Facebook friends (acquired a few to watch the election) swallow and spread the most insane propaganda. Leftists preferring Donald over Hillary, in mindblowing anti-reasoning and false equivalencies I thought impossible beyond age 5y. Did you know Hillary attended a cannibalistic dinner? Lock her up! Or her child porn business? Lock her up! ...
Before the wørd "fake news" came up and others took note I already called Facebook a stupidity amplifier.

Putin had easy play with manipulating the all-American stupid.  Not just Putin, of course. Bannon, Flynn, and many others were also hard working in producing this shit storm, plus a few bright Macedonian kids who made Google ad money by canalizing the shit flow onto the American tables. Remember Trump presenting Russian bullshit at a rally, before Sputnik news deleted it? That is either clinical stupidity or collusion if not treason. But who cared? This is not a story manufactured by the evil "deep state". Nope, it happened in full public view, like other highly suspicious things. No one can say "the Russians did it". Nope, it was the stupidified U.S. voter and media, after decades of Republican mental inbreeding. I thought GWB was the epitome of Reaganist stupidification. I was wrong...

This is one side of the Russiagate coin. The other side is the dark money connections between Trump and the Russian kleptocracy. This may be just business risk, since real estate is often used for money laundering - and Trump won't get money from U.S. banks anymore after too many bankruptcies. (The last Western loan he got from Deutsche Bank, quite a smelly deal...) I recall a series of Financial Times reports on this underground connections. Seemed not to be made up by the CIA. Hmmm, anyone heard of Cyprus? Who was this Trumpist kleptocrat in this Russian money laundering hub?

[TerryM]

Martin


Appreciate the thoughts you express above.


The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.
Neither side can claim freedom from the kleptocratic scum grasping for favors apre the contest. Since Hillary outspent the Trumpster by some multiple I assume she scraped a little lower, but that's conjection.


I see Reagan, Bush the elder, and Bush the younger, as a downward progression in scholarship, intellect, and morality. Trump surely represents a base level beneath which it will be difficult to burrow.


The task we face is how to minimize the damage Trump and his Republicans can wreak, while hopefully hobbling him in 2018, then replacing him in 2020.


War is the most immediate, immanent danger. We need to lead our feckless leader back from the precipice he might well toss us all over.
Applauding his innately pugnacious nature will not help. Demonizing other world leaders simply highlights targets for his aggressions. We don't need a warrior king.


The next thing we need to do is to popularize the EPA and the wonderful work it has been doing. Overcoming decades of misinformation is no small task, but just about every American has benefited from cleaner water, clearer skies, even rivers that no longer catch fire.
This is a battle that can be won, and fighting against it can, and has brought world leaders down. Look no further afield than over your northern border for confirmation.
This is also a battle that can be fought in small discreet increments. A city that doesn't appreciate smog or haze. A county that takes pride in it's riverscape. A state that won't go back to acidic lakes or stinking beaches. These can become beacons of support for the EPA and centers of discontent to the present administration.


NASA is another weak card in Trump's hand. He wants to cut the budget & have them aim only outward, away from the earth.
Americans have rallied around NASA since Sputnik graced our skies. We won't be number two - again. The Big Blue Marble captured peoples imagination across all demographics. That was NASA looking back at the world, just what our leader wants to eliminate.
Google Earth is ubiquitous and a prime example of NASA looking back.
Ronald Reagan, then GHW Bush founded and funded NASA's Earth Science Research Program. Surely these forward thinking statesmen were cognizant of the benefits that would accrue? Surely no cowboy would allow bean counters to divert funds from this Republican program that "The Great Communicator" spoke of so highly?


I'm barely skimming the surface for battles that we can, and must, fight and win.


If voters don't get the big picture then we focus on the local. If voters demand change, we propose changes that will help them, not changes that bring back smoke filled skies and water faucets that double as an ignition source.
People are not stupid. They were fed up with more promises and less action. Point to a clear stream, a clean beach or a lush forest. We did that. We don't want to take their jobs, we want them building out a better grid, installing solar panels, working in factories that export American EVs to the world.


Back on topic:
As Jim points out we are capable of multitasking. But there are finite assets at our disposal, finite minutes of broadcast time, and frankly a finite limit to the number of arguments that the average voter can follow at one time.
Why waste any of this on a possibly quixotic attempt at impeaching the Republican Trump, in a Republican House, under rules parsed by a Republican Supreme Court. If we win we achieve a Pence Presidency, a person who defines himself as "A Christian, a Conservative and a Republican, in that order." His background as a conservative talk show host on the AM dial does little to recommend him.


If you can't convince me that Trump should be impeached for his interactions with Putin, what chance do you have of convincing a room full of Republicans, many of whom were elected on his coattails?


Terry

[Martin Gisser]

The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.

I'm sorry, Terry, but this is one of those amazingly st.p.d false equivalencies I learned to hate last year. The Clinton foundation has a better rating than the Red Cross.

[TerryM]

The 10s or 100's of millions of dollars that Ukrainian politicians gave to Clinton's charity, just as they were extracting loans from the IMF, gave me pause.

I'm sorry, Terry, but this is one of those amazingly st.p.d false equivalencies I learned to hate last year. The Clinton foundation has a better rating than the Red Cross.

Sorry, but I didn't think I'd said anything nasty about The Clinton Foundation's work.
Just that the kleptocratic thugs who marched under Nazi banners were sending her millions that they'd skimmed from Ukraine, while crying poor mouth as they raked in the "donations" that the IMF was doling out. I don't think anyone believes these loans will be paid off, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Ukraine will soon be in need of The Clinton Foundation's services. should these thieves remain in power for much longer.


I'm not aware of any equivalency.


Terry

[Martin Gisser]

Terry, here is what irked me:

Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort, August 2016:

"My work in Ukraine ceased following the country's parliamentary elections in October 2014. ... However, the Times does fail to disclose the fact that the Clinton Foundation has taken (and may still take) payments in exchange for favors from Hillary Clinton while serving as the Secretary of State. This is not discussed despite the overwhelming evidence in emails that Hillary Clinton attempted to cover up,"

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/15/politics/clinton-slams-trump-over-manafort-report/

N.B.: He worked for Viktor Yanukovych.

[TerryM]

Martin
I've never been able to understand why so many foreign leaders call on Washington insiders to manage their campaigns.
Watched a documentary once where James Carville was hired by some African ruler to assure his reelection. As I recall, the election was won, but rioting broke out the next day & the peoples,(manipulated) choice had to flee for his life.


"You can't fool all the people all the time", may well be true, but apparently you can sometimes fool enough of the people long enough to win an election. 


Terry

[mati]

nice moving the goal posts

[Buddy]

RussiaGate may get a "respite" before the next round of fireworks begins.....although, anything can break at any time.

Remember...it took 19 months until Tricky Dick was pushed out of office (from the beginning of his second term).  And it took the cumulative effect of several things...not JUST the Watergate break-in, to finally force him out.  And the country needed the polls to be VERY NEGATIVE so that Congressmen and Senators were worried about their own hides....which is the most important thing that most of them are concerned about.

That is why all the issues surrounding Donnie are important....both big and small.  It's the  CUMULATIVE EFFECT over months and months that will bring his poll numbers down....and force some of the Republicans to throw in the towel.

So while some may poo poo seemingly "small" things such as Donnie being a slob to his wife .....I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss those types of things.  Without the effect of EVERYTHING....Donnie would still likely stay in office.

In two weeks.....RussiaGate will get a LARGE injection of energy, as the public part of this play comes to the forefront:  The public questioning of some of the major players begins in early May.  THAT....is when more of the public will become interested in what is playing out in Washington. 

In the meantime.....BOTH "large stuff" and "small stuff".....will continue to wear on Donnie.  Just like a fight in the ring....it is not only the "haymaker" that is important....it is the continual bombardment of jabs to the head....one after the other....that will continue to soften up Donnie Boy until he is forced out.

This week.....the main thing on his plate is getting the government funded.  And it looks like he is in his old gambling mode.  He wants to get a "win" at any price....and it looks like he may gamble that the Dem's can be bought off on Obamacare in return for ponying up money for the wall.  This one will fascinating to watch.  I'm not so sure the Dem's will cave on this.   We will find out if Donnie loses this bluff by Friday.  Will the Dem's cave?  If they don't....will Donnie cave and pass a funding bill WITHOUT funds for the wall?  If he DOESN'T get funding now....it is going to be harder and harder as time goes by, and as Donnie continues to lose credibility.

Donnie is STILL trying to "sell" the notion that "Mexico will EVENTUALLY" pay for the wall.  If I am the Democrat's....I call his bluff....and tell him we'll build the wall WHEN MEXICO PAYS FOR IT LIKE HE PROMISED....AND NOT UNTIL

Pressure causes people to make bad decisions.....what bad decisions is Donnie going to make THIS WEEK?

 

[Buddy]

Donnie's communication mouthpiece continues to come under fire:

1)  Who knew.....Sean is slime as well....I'm absolute gobsmacked :  http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/ex-fox-news-contributor-accuses-sean-hannity-sexual-harassment-article-1.3093058?cid=bitly

2)  Alyson Camerota.....more of the same, FOX is a cesspool of bad behavior, not only on the sex front....but Roger Ailes was always trying to FORCE the "conservative narrative" on their talking heads:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alisyn-camerota-roger-ailes_us_58fcca0fe4b00fa7de1516c1?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

As I noted a few months ago....Donnie would continue to use FOX News more and more.  And now....his "communications mouthpiece" is coming under fire.  Not JUST on the "sexual exploit" angle....but also from the JOURNALISTIC VIEW.  Not a surprise to me...but Ailes was always trying to force his talking heads to push the "conservative narrative" (whatever the topic of the day was for Roger).  In other words....taking journalism out.....and replacing it with a lobbyists point of view.

This is also bad news for Trump and RussiaGate.  Remember....he needs FOX to be pushing FOR HIM and to "poo poo" RussiaGate.  They have done so until now.  Will they continue to downplay RussiaGate as it expands and deepens?  Or will they actually find journalistic chops?  Hint....don't hold your breath.  But what we may be seeing.....is at least an "intermediate term" pullback in the popularity of FOX News as both (1) RussiaGate, and (2) global warming......continue to play a larger and larger part of peoples everyday lives over the next year or two.

FOX now finds itself DEEPLY IMBEDED on the wrong side of BOTH issues.  As I have noted before.....these TWO ISSUES continue to move towards each other.....each one reinforcing the other.  And FOX has missed both of them....

[Buddy]

Here are some things to watch over the next month or so.  The next month is setting up to be pretty important....with the timing of several events coming together:

1)  RussiaGate public hearings look to be starting on May 2nd by the House committee (hopefully).  Sally Yates is scheduled to testify sometime AFTER May 2nd.

2)  The OPEC (plus Russia) oil cutback is due to expire at the end of June....and a possible 6 month extension of that deal would likely be made (or not made) over the next month.  I will be watching oil prices CLOSELY over the coming weeks.....as well as inventory levels.  If inventory levels don't come down, that would be a very negative sign for the price of oil.

3)  Korea standoff continues.....and a ramp up continues.  All 50 senators are to be briefed TOMMORROW at the White House.

4)  Democratic senators are getting impatient with the level of activity by the Senate committee on Russia election interference (as well they should).

5) At the end of this week......the US needs to agree on legislation to fund government operations or face a shut down.  Looks like Donnie as decided it best to "fold" this hand....and he has backed down on his prior insistence of including a down payment on the "border wall" (you know....the one that Mexico ISN'T going to pay for).  Wise move Donnie....

6)  French election will be held less than 2 weeks from now.  The outcome could have SIGNIFICANT ramifications not only in Europe...but also in the states.  A Le Pen win would give Donnie a definite boost.....a Le Pen loss (to Macron) would suck a little air out of Donnies hot air balloon.  Note....Russia's banks have bankrolled Le Pen (literally....French banks wouldn't loan her money, so Russia's banks stepped in).

ALL of these events will effect the others......if only to a small degree.  In my mind....I will continue to watch the Korean events and watch Donnie's poll numbers.  He KNOWS that he can't have his poll numbers "tank" into sub 30 levels (there is a "tipping point"....whether it is 30 or 25 or some other number...is a "guesstimate"....but there is a point at which the senators and members of the house WILL BAIL on him).  When the RussiaGate investigation hits the airwaves in early May....the spotlight will turn back to that unless something else (like Korea) takes it away.

   


   

[Buddy]

Looks like Sally Yates and James Clapper are going to testify before the House committee on May 8th now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-2016-election-investigation-sally-yates-james-clapper-a7701726.html

As well.....the White House is again playing defense.  They are not releasing some documents related to Michael Flynn to the House committee investigating Russia.  Donnie must have read his Watergate history......

http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/cummings-classified-flynn-docs-troubling/html_2a1800f7-becf-5e8d-8ca2-8e2414acfef2.html

[Buddy]

One "sideshow" I am also keeping my eyes on RELATED TO RUSSIAGATE.....is whether Melania and her son will be moving down to DC from New York City.

If things really start to turn "nasty" on RussiaGate.....I might expect that Melania and son may NOT move down to DC.  But I have to believe that would ONLY happen if RussiaGate starts to "blow up" even further than it is now.  Why would you move down if (a) things are REALLY going to get nasty, and (b) in a worst case....why move down to DC if there is a reasonable likelihood the move will be less than a year.

Just something to think about........

[Buddy]

Below is the daily Gallup Poll.  Approval down to 39%.....Disapproval up to 56%.

As I noted before....I expect his anemic "bounce" to be over....and it is LIKELY we are heading towards "higher highs" in Disapproval....and "lower lows" in Approval.  The "spread" is now 17% between approval and disapproval.

If the bits and pieces I have heard about his tax reform is anything close....it is NOT going to be accepted by the Dems.

For instance.....it would tax the net income from "partnerships and S Corporations" (taxed like a partnership) at a MAX RATE of 15%.  Currently.....the "pass through income" from a partnership or S corp is taxed at the rate of the individual receiving that net income....and their max rate is now just under 40% at the federal level.  Doctors, attorneys, wall streeters.....will LOVE THIS.  This is a BIG GIFT for the wealthy.

If you look at the graph below.....I've added the "legs" (disapproval legs in red....approval legs in blue).  The last legs are ONLY a "guesstimate".....of course we don't know how LONG this current down leg in approval (up leg in disapproval)  will last, nor do we know how far they will go.

We do know that the week of May 8th may not be a good week for Donnie.....so some worsening in the polls could certainly be backed up by some BAD FUNDAMENTALS (like showing that both Donnie AND Pence lied about their knowledge of Michael Flynn's escapades).

The process continues......

[TerryM]

An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.


If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?
What horrors are in store for us in 2018? What would stop the Armenians, the Australians or the Austrians from hacking that election? - And that's just the A list.
Do we need to shut down the internet during campaign season? Are newspapers, TV and the radio safe from foreign interference?


Perhaps a loyalty oath. Have you ever watched RT? Have you ever read Tolstoy? Did you ever cheer for the Russian Hockey Team? Do you now, or have you ever worn Red flannel underwear?


Apologies for the levity, but this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

[Buddy]

this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

Yes....it is all smoke and mirrors.  Just like global warming.....   I'm even surprised you waste your time commenting on it....

[Martin Gisser]

An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.

I'm a bit fed up with Trump stuff, so I won't dig out and revisit all the stuff I've seen since last year.

Here is a question for you and other "disbelievers": Why is Russiagate so hard to accept?

If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?

Methinks it is very difficult to tell how much influence "Putin" had on the outcome. (E.g. there's also Comey's october surprise.) See below for Obama's take in his Dec.16 press conference.

Latest news from the French front:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/25/cyberattack-on-french-presidential-front-runner-bears-russian-fingerprints-research-group-says/

folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

What smoke and mirrors? Where? Who?

-----------------
What brought down Nixon was his attempted cover-up of the Watergate break-in. Sooo, what about the cover-ups by the Trump folk? Maybe Donnie got Alzheimer like Ronnie, and forgot about many campaign helpers, from Carter Page to Wikileaks.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/there-is-an-active-cover-up-going-on-carl-bernstein-goes-off-on-former-trump-staffer/

Here is more on cover-ups by the hilarious Keith Olbermann:

-----------------
I shouldn't mention another recent news item, for it might feed conspiracist ideation about a "deep state" cabal against poor Humpty Trumpty...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-election-exclusive-idUSKBN17L2N3

A Russian government think tank controlled by Vladimir Putin developed a plan to swing the 2016 U.S. presidential election to Donald Trump and undermine voters’ faith in the American electoral system, three current and four former U.S. officials told Reuters.

They described two confidential documents from the think tank as providing the framework and rationale for what U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded was an intensive effort by Russia to interfere with the Nov. 8 election. U.S. intelligence officials acquired the documents, which were prepared by the Moscow-based Russian Institute for Strategic Studies [en.riss.ru/], after the election.

The institute is run by retired senior Russian foreign intelligence officials appointed by Putin’s office.

------------
Here is Obama's excellent comment:

... our vulnerability to Russia or any other foreign power is directly related to how divided, partisan, dysfunctional our political process is. That's the thing that makes us vulnerable.

If fake news that's being released by some foreign government is almost identical to reports that are being issued through partisan news venues, then it's not surprising that that foreign propaganda will have a greater effect. It doesn't seem that far-fetched compared to some of the other stuff that folks are hearing from domestic propagandists.

To the extent that our political dialogue is such where everything is under suspicion, and everybody is corrupt, and everybody is doing things for partisan reasons, and all of our institutions are, you know, full of malevolent actors, if that's the story line that is being put out there by whatever party is out of power, then when a foreign government introduces that same argument, with facts that are made up, voters who have been listening to that stuff for years, who have been getting that stuff every day from talk radio or other venues, they're going to believe it.

So if we want to really reduce foreign influence on our elections, then we had better think about how to make sure that our political process, our political dialogue is stronger than it has been.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/16/transcript-obamas-end-of-year-news-conference-on-syria-russian-hacking-and-more/

[Archimid]

An interesting monologue, but so little re. Russiagate.


If Putin could actually alter the outcome of an American election, then how many other elections worldwide have been hacked?
What horrors are in store for us in 2018? What would stop the Armenians, the Australians or the Austrians from hacking that election? - And that's just the A list.
Do we need to shut down the internet during campaign season? Are newspapers, TV and the radio safe from foreign interference?


Perhaps a loyalty oath. Have you ever watched RT? Have you ever read Tolstoy? Did you ever cheer for the Russian Hockey Team? Do you now, or have you ever worn Red flannel underwear?


Apologies for the levity, but this would evoke peals of laughter if it wasn't taken so seriously by folk that should be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Terry

I think you underestimate the impact of social media and the power of misinformation. If a few regular people can sell you [insert product] then what can teams of highly trained intelligence operatives with access to data that you and I can't even imagine do? They can certainly tip the odds of an election.

[Herfried]

Putin definitely helped out Trump with data. Data about "which slogan might do its best were". In the narrow race, this definitely was doing his victory.

Why? To weaken America, by putting a highly corrupt, reckless and rather incompetent Showmaster on the lead? Maybe. Likely he also hoped that this showman attitude just could make them friends. The bigger question is: Putin may help out a bit, bring one or two percent of the votes, higher rates locally. To make this a winning number, many many Americans were already for Trump before. The idea, that this guy is against the (capitalistic political, economical) system is just plain stupid. But people voted or that. And others like the show.

Watching US news ... Full of show. And between the loud noise, there ae a few sips of news, but not too high in dose. Americans like show more than anything else. And here... the showman Trump delivered what so many people like: show.  For this he was elected And that is sad.

[TerryM]

Was Putin rootin for Trump?
He was definitely against Hillary's ascendancy to the Presidency. When it came down to a two man show he was pro Trump. Prior to Trump's nomination, I'm not so sure.


Did Putin have access to data that could help Trump's campaign?
Almost certainly.
Did he pass this on to Trump?
Probably, just as "W" past information on to Steven Harper in their closed door meeting, and just as surely as Obama gave Trudeau software to identify Liberal voters. I'm equally sure that many European leaders preferred Hillary and passed information on to her campaign.


Did Putin violate international laws?
Not likely, he seems usually zealous WRT international law.
Did Trump violate international laws?
I'm sure he would have if he thought it would help him get elected. The man is short on scruples.


Does this mean that the election results can't be trusted?
No, this is the way all elections go. This election experienced no more or no less "foreign" interference than any other Presidential election. Foreign potentates have often had opinions about who they thought should be leading America. Every one from Churchill to the Pope has had his say, and his attempts at manipulating the outcome.


BTW
What coded messages was Enrique Pena Nieto sending to his armies of minions throughout the American South West?
Don't know, can't understand Spanish. But we did get rid of Sheriff Joe !!


Terry

[Archimid]

Ok by that post I assume that it is perfectly acceptable to you that foreign nations meddle in the elections of other nations. IN the past that could have been considered an act of war but times are changing. To me no nation should engage in influencing the elections of other countries. It seem that will lead to a lot of violence. But lets move past that.

How about policy setting? Do you feel that some countries should design policy for other countries and introduce it using double agents? Because that is what Flynn and all other Trump "advisers"  did and were successful. They were so successful in fact that Trump named Flynn as the National Security Advisor.  A position he then had to resign because he failed to disclose Russian connections in the security clearance. That shows both the foolishness of these people and their ill intent. That's how deep Putin has influence the policy of the current administration.

Of course this didn't magically happen in the vacuum. The ground was fertile in congress because fossil fuel interest and Republican interests are tightly aligned. The money have been flowing between these interests for a long time. The people were primed by fear of the black president, immigrants and Muslims. Just the kind of fear that can easily develop in protectionist self destruction. Very convenient for an expanding nation.

TerryM i don't want to offend you because I find some of your posts insightful, but I believe that the one who is blinded is you. It seems surreal, I know, but the evidence is there. Kinda like the Arctic collapse. It sounds too bad to be true, but here we are.

[Buddy]

TerryM i don't want to offend you because I find some of your posts insightful, but I believe that the one who is blinded is you. It seems surreal, I know, but the evidence is there. Kinda like the Arctic collapse.

Could not have put it any better than that myself, so I won't try.  SPOT ON.

[Martin Gisser]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/25/michael-flynn-turkey-russia-237550
Flynn’s Turkish lobbying linked to Russia
The former national security adviser’s client had business dealings in Russia and worked with an executive in Russian oil companies on Turkish lobbying projects.

...and the White House refuses to hand over any documents on his vetting. Do we have a Watergate-ish cover-up here?

I ask again: Why turn a blind eye to Russiagate?

[TerryM]

Archimid
I don't think it matters whether you or I believe it's acceptable to meddle in other countries elections. Google for the IDU, the International Democrat Union was set up by Ronald Reagan, Margret Thatcher and John Howard for just this purpose. They have a website, but the Wikipedia entry is more interesting.


Martin
I was aware that Flynn was a registered Turkish lobbyist, my understanding was that he was being paid to promote Turkish interests. He defiantly should not by in the government's employ.


Trump should never have won the nomination, but realistically Hillary would have lost to (almost) any candidate the Republican's fielded. If we accept that Trump was a flawed candidate, and that the Republican nomination process was flawed, we also have to accept that Hillary was a flawed Nominee, and that we need to do better in 2020.
Making excuses for her loss by blaming Putin, or even Comey, who had far more influence on the vote, allows us to march straight ahead into another electoral disaster.


Many Americans on the left blame Putin for their loss. Many of us, outside the direct onslaught of American propaganda, think you are blinded by your loss. The defining difference that I see it is the influence of the propaganda bubble you live in. Seeing a bubble from inside takes enormous effort, from outside it glistens in the sun.


Terry

[budmantis]

Did Putin violate international laws?
Not likely, he seems usually zealous WRT international law.

Terry

What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea?  What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?  I enjoy reading your posts Terry, because as Archimid said, your posts tend to be insightful, but sometimes I don't understand your point of view with regards to Putin. Clearly the Democrats lost an election they should have easily won, and they are to blame for the most part.

As long as there is the possibility of Russian involvement in our election, it needs to be investigated. I've seen you voice concerns about provoking Putin and your concerns that they have a nuclear capability similar to ours, etc., but I don't think Putin is going to be pacified by appeasement. On the other hand, I'm not sure aggression is the answer either, but sometimes, we just have to push back.

If Putin did have a hand in helping Trump get elected, he may have had second thoughts after the U.S. bombing of the Syrian air base. Whether Putin interfered in our election or not, there is enough information to warrant an investigation, but I blame the Democrats almost entirely for the outcome of the election.

BudM

P.S.: After reading your latest post, it appears we are more in agreement than I first thought!

[TerryM]

budm
I can't answer re. Georgia, although I believe their leader was run out of the country for stealing the silverware, or something.


I was following the events in Crimea very closely and find no fault in Putin's actions. The crazies from Kiev were heading their way dancing in the streets and chanting that they would put them all "to the knife". In very short order they refused to accept the coup as their government, held an election after declaring themselves a free and separate nation, then asked to be taken under Russia's wing.


Donetsk and Luhansk faced, and are still facing similar problems. So far Putin has refused their requests to join the federation.


The US had already taken bids to rebuild the Russian Naval Base in Crimea well before rioting began in Kiev, lending credence to the theory that what happened in Ukraine wasn't a civil war. I have no idea why Putin hasn't allowed the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk the same protection he has afforded Crimeans. Hopefully the bloodshed there will end.


I'm relieved that our positions are coming closer as I respect your insights. I do see this as a very important matter that could end very, very badly.
Terry

[mati]

terry m
your memory is faulty to the point of malice.
crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"
russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab land
to deny this means you are not who you say you are in your posts
but that you are playing us for fools

[TerryM]

terry m
your memory is faulty to the point of malice.
crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"
russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab land
to deny this means you are not who you say you are in your posts
but that you are playing us for fools

Sorry, you're wrong.
Do a modicum of research on the "polite men in green" and you'll find they were Russian military with every right to be stationed in Crimea.
If discussions with me make you feel like a fool, that's not my responsibility to correct.
Terry