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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #250 on: May 12, 2017, 06:45:45 AM »
Terry:

In regards to your reply #238, you paint a bleak picture of a Pence presidency, and to think constitutionally he could be president for as long as ten years, depending on timing! The biggest concern I have of a Pence presidency is he would be exactly what the Republican majority in both houses would want in the oval office.

Even if Trump is impeached, President Pence would have a difficult time getting re-elected in 2020 because he has been with Trump from the beginning. Most of us will remember all the pictures of Trump with Pence at his right hand, applauding his ridiculous executive orders, etc. I don't understand how even a conservative Republican with an ounce of integrity can continually support a narcissist and egomaniac like Trump.

Pence is a follower, not a leader and he also lacks charisma. Lastly, I think the Republicans will likely lose the House in 2018 and possibly the Senate in 2020. Perhaps the only way Trump should be impeached is if his "high crimes" become particularly egregious. In the meantime, the Republican majorities and Trump are possibly the best thing to reinvigorate the progressives and to change the Democratic party for the better.

BudM


Did every one miss my
"The above was a flight of fantasy"??
Bolded it this time - Ha


I'd counted Pence's possible term to be 11 yrs. He may have little charisma but he did win a governorship IIRC.
Trump seems very likely to fulfill every Republican's dream WRT climate. Pence will certainly fulfill every Republican's dream.
I don't understand why Pence enacting these laws is preferable to Trump signing the same bills?
Terry

wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #251 on: May 12, 2017, 06:53:02 AM »
As I understand the strategy, if Trump ends up resigning in disgrace (or leaving office by some other means under heaps of ignominy), Pence, his chosen VP, is not likely to be seen as a strong, or even fully legitimate, president. Weak presidents are less likely to be able to get their way than strong ones.

It may be a flawed strategy, most are. But it doesn't seem as totally irrational to me as you seem to make it out to be.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 07:03:37 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #252 on: May 12, 2017, 07:05:28 AM »
Terry,

I did notice your "flight of fancy" and consider it the worst case scenario. The term limit to serve as president, (as far as I know) is ten years.

On another matter, I did read Charles Longway's post. When I said you carried the argument too far in regards to Putin's possible interference with our election, I thought you were being obstinate. Perhaps I was wrong, I'll have to reconsider the issue. It's just that the Putin and Russia you portray seems so far removed from what the mainstream media and others have said.

BudM

P.S.: By the way, unlike my ancestors I never liked poutine. Although I rarely indulge in French fries for health reasons, there's nothing like a good home-made French fry!

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #253 on: May 12, 2017, 07:44:54 AM »
Wiki


I'll assume that your question is serious, although your way of asking gives me doubts.


De-legitimizing your opponent in a political campaign is a valuable tool that should be used sparingly. Hillary ended up with little in her rhetoric other than "He's bad - I'm Good". It didn't work.


I'd prefer something more akin to "The problems we face are such - our solution is this". followed with a smattering of "The problems we face are such, his solution is to do this, our solution is to do that." - I recognize that a little bit of "He's a Doo-Doo head that can't tie his own shoes" is required, but I think his side is just so much better at this kind of campaigning.


If we were in a position to claim that "His side is in the pocket of the Banksters, while ours is entirely funded by small donors", I'd throw some of that into the mix. If we could legitimately campaign on being "The party that will shut down Citizen's United, & bring back Democracy", it might sell. "Don't vote for your boss - vote for us" has a nice populist ring to it. on the other hand "Vote for us - we'll crush Russia" sounds so 1950's.


I've only been deeply involved in one political campaign. They were the incumbents and were expected to win.
We made our party's mascot the porpoise - never overtly mentioning that they were sharks.
We used every dirty trick in the book to convince them that we were about to pull a dirty trick - and relied on their preemptive salvos to set the tone.
We were expected to pull ~ 10% of the vote, twice what their last opposition had polled.
We won by ~250% with voter turnout far exceeding any past election.


Once was enough, it was exhausting work - primarily making sure that none of our supporters ever sounded a negative note.


Terry

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #254 on: May 12, 2017, 08:25:20 AM »
Terry,

I did notice your "flight of fancy" and consider it the worst case scenario. The term limit to serve as president, (as far as I know) is ten years.


I'll bow to your expertise

Quote
On another matter, I did read Charles Longway's post. When I said you carried the argument too far in regards to Putin's possible interference with our election, I thought you were being obstinate. Perhaps I was wrong, I'll have to reconsider the issue. It's just that the Putin and Russia you portray seems so far removed from what the mainstream media and others have said.

You were no more shocked than I. I'd had no particular interest in Russia or Ukraine when I began investigating, and that was only because one side or the other had to be lying through their teeth. I fully expected to find that the Ruskies were lying as usual, and that the noble Ukrainians were fighting valiantly against almost impossible odds.


The site I discovered had over 8k pages when I began, not 8k posts, but 8k pages of posts.
I backread the site and by the time I'd caught up they had over 10k pages.
The evidence was all there, the Odessa Massacre was the bloodiest possibly, certainly the bloodiest attack on civilians. We figured out how the whole thing had been executed, false uniforms, false attacks and feigns, only the red arm bands served to separate the victims from the perpetrators.
Video, pictures, witness statements, and comments from pro Russians, pro Ukrainians and interested observers, perhaps a thousand pages.
About 11.5K pages in and the site was torn down - nothing to mark it's passage. Battles still being fought.
Sorry, carried away in revery.


The point is that I didn't find what I expected to find. All I knew up to then was what the media was feeding me.  Can you imagine if all you knew about global warming was what your favorite news channel, or your local newspaper reported?
Quote
BudM

P.S.: By the way, unlike my ancestors I never liked poutine. Although I rarely indulge in French fries for health reasons, there's nothing like a good home-made French fry!
We had no idea what a poutine might be on our first trip into Quebec. I've since developed a taste for cheese curd, but prefer my fries dunked in white vinegar.


Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #255 on: May 12, 2017, 01:11:21 PM »
What have we learned SO FAR in RussiaGate?

If you're in your twenties or early thirties....I hope you're taking the whole "RussiaGate" thing in...and watching closely.  You/we can learn a LOT about human psychology....and then utilize that at work or in your personal life.  Human psychology permeates EVERY part of our life.  The setting of proper INCENTIVES AND DISINCENTIVES is extremely important in business and government (and personally as well...think:  Raising your kids).  And human psychology reacts to the incentives and disincentives in place.  If you have the proper ones in place....it rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior. 

1) The capacity for humans to lie is rather disturbing...and Donnie & Company are taking this to levels not seen before in the oval office.  It will likely get worse...  So be skeptical.

2)  The capacity for humans to BELIEVE LIES is perhaps even more disturbing...because it highlights how vulnerable we are in the US and elsewhere.  Yes..it CAN happen again....which is why significant changes and safeguards need to be put into place after we get out of this mess.  And yes....there is a definite need for a commission to look at this and offer up changes.

3) The RAT TEST:  If it looks like a rat....talks like a rat....and walks like a rat:  ITS A RAT.  So don't just listen to the words of someone....match them up with what that person is actually doing.  If they don't match....then keep digging and looking for what is wrong...because something is CLEARLY WRONG.  If things "don't make sense"....there are REASONS they don't make sense:  LOOK FOR THEM AND FIND THEM.

4) If you have a boss like Donnie....or a CEO like Donnie....look for another job.  You can learn a LOT MORE under a good boss, than you can under a bad boss.  You can still learn under a bad boss....but most of what you learn IS WHAT NOT TO DO.  So look for A GOOD BOSS...or a company with a GOOD CEO. 

5)  The ROACH THEORY:  If you see one or two roaches.....THERE ARE LIKELY A LOT MORE BEHIND THE WALLS.  If you see a couple issues that just don't make sense....there are likely many other issues lurking.   They run in packs.  There is still a LOT WE DON'T KNOW YET ABOUT RUSSIAGATE.....we are still early in the process....and I think what we will eventually learn about RussiaGate will startle many people.

The process continues....
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #256 on: May 12, 2017, 04:49:46 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Mike Pence is neck-deep in Donald Trump’s James Comey mess", & it makes the case that Pence is not a sweet innocent in this Russiagate mess.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/12/mike-pence-is-neck-deep-in-donald-trumps-james-comey-mess/

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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #257 on: May 12, 2017, 05:42:50 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Comey furious at lack of respect White House showed, sources say", & it indicates that Comey will prepare a response to Trump in the coming days; which may tell us more about Trump's obstruction of the Russiagate investigation.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/comey-furious-lack-respect-white-house-showed-sources/story?id=47367073

Extract: "A source said they expect that at some point Comey will respond to Trump -- but it is uncertain when that would be. For now, Comey has taken a few days to gather himself, particularly given how caught off guard he was by the timing of the firing."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #258 on: May 12, 2017, 09:44:25 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Source: Comey is 'not worried about any tapes'", Trump's veiled threats to Comey are causing a commotion.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/james-comey-dinner-trump/

Extract: "Former FBI Director James Comey is "not worried about any tapes" of conversations between him and President Donald Trump, a source familiar with the matter told CNN Friday, adding that "if there is a tape, there's nothing he is worried about" that could be on it.

Friday morning, Trump issued a thinly veiled threat to Comey, apparently suggesting there are possibly recorded conversations between the two men that could be leaked to counter the former FBI director if necessary."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #259 on: May 13, 2017, 04:53:17 AM »
Here is a small sample of the numerous Palmer Reports about Trump's current troubles:

"New York authorities are going after Paul Manafort’s financial records to get to Donald Trump"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/feds-new-york-manafort/2789/

&

"Treasury Department financial crimes unit agrees to turn over Donald Trump’s records to Senate Intel"

http://www.palmerreport.com/news/crimes-treasury-trump-senate/2782/

&

"Donald Trump’s bumbling legal action today may have forfeited IRS confidentiality on his tax returns"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/confidentiality-trump-tax-returns/2781/
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budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #260 on: May 13, 2017, 06:14:54 AM »
Terry:

In regards to your reply number 254, it's a shame that website no longer exists, as I would really like to see it for myself. Are there other resources out there in cyberspace that you're aware of?

BudM

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #261 on: May 13, 2017, 07:23:52 AM »
Terry:

In regards to your reply number 254, it's a shame that website no longer exists, as I would really like to see it for myself. Are there other resources out there in cyberspace that you're aware of?

BudM
There were a few that went to the Saker, some others started a not very popular blog whose name will come to me in the middle of the night. I don't know if it's still viable.
I always refrained from posting there as at first I knew nothing, and by the time I did a certain paranoia had taken over.
Ausander(?) at Vineyard of the Saker has written a book or two on his experiences in Crimea at the time. He's an American who quite upfront about what he's witnessed.


Terry


AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #262 on: May 13, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
This thread is for discussing every aspect of the alleged (and allegedly successful) attempts by the Russian government to influence the last American presidential elections.

Have at it.

The linked article is entitled: “Adam Schiff on “Real Time with Bill Maher”: James Comey would “still have a job” if there was no there there”; this thread should not be about what Russia is trying to do, it should be about facing-up to what Trump is doing to corrupt not only the USA but also the world (by cooperating with other kleptocrats like Putin).

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/13/adam-schiff-on-real-time-with-bill-maher-james-comey-would-still-have-a-job-if-there-was-no-there-there/

Extract: “The ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee says that Trump apologists don't realize what is at stake.
...
Maher asked Schiff what he would say to Trump supporters who blindly follow the president.

“As important as the collusion is,” Schiff said, “there is a lot at stake here even beyond that. What people need to recognize is the Russians intervened not just because they wanted to help Donald Trump and not just because they hated Hillary Clinton, they intervened because they wanted to take down our democracy.”

“Just as they wanted to tear down the democracy in France with Marine Le Pen and why they would like to see Angela Merkel defeated,” Schiff added. “There is a real struggle of ideas around the world of authoritarianism versus democracy. Putin is leading the autocratic vanguard and he has imitators in Cairo and Ankara, Turkey and the Philippines.”

“And Trump,” Maher offered.

“And you have a president of the United States who loves these authoritarian figures,” Schiff agreed.”
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 05:17:21 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #263 on: May 13, 2017, 05:40:18 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Will Trump Be the First to Politicize the FBI?".  Politicizing law enforcement is a clear path towards authoritarianism and away from democracy.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130

Extract: "Shortlist names like Kelly Ayotte and John Cornyn sound like ideal Washington department heads—until you realize why the FBI has never had a political leader."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #264 on: May 13, 2017, 06:02:34 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Will Trump Be the First to Politicize the FBI?".  Politicizing law enforcement is a clear path towards authoritarianism and away from democracy.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130

Extract: "Shortlist names like Kelly Ayotte and John Cornyn sound like ideal Washington department heads—until you realize why the FBI has never had a political leader."


Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #265 on: May 13, 2017, 06:17:38 PM »

Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry

Terry,

To me your post smack of implying that Trump is not so bad because everyone has a bit of original sin, so just let Trump get on with corrupting the free world.  In other words, to me your posts read like they come from a Trump apologist.

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 06:32:27 PM by AbruptSLR »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #266 on: May 13, 2017, 06:18:10 PM »
The linked article is entitled: "Opinion President Trump is behaving a lot like someone who colluded with Russia", where there smoke there is fire.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-trump-russia-comey-20170513-story.html#

Extract: "Now, after Comey asks for more resources for his agency’s investigation, Trump fires him. The Republicans sit idly by while the U.S. government is burning, and Trump is photographed meeting in the White House with his potential co-conspirators. No wonder the photos show them laughing — the joke is on us.

We need a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this now. If we do not, we will be living in Trump’s alternative universe, being told what to do by a dictator."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #267 on: May 13, 2017, 06:34:29 PM »

Surely you jest.
No historic memories of J. Edgar & his boy toy?
Hoover was as political an animal as ever headed any police organization. Found a Commie under every rock & didn't believe in organized crime. No one called him on it because he was blackmailing all of them.
Appointing someone worse than The G. Man would be a difficult task for anyone.
Terry

Terry,

To me your post smack of implying that Trump is not so bad because everyone has a bit of original sin, so just let Trump get on with corrupting the free world.  In other words, to me you sound like a Trump apologist.

Best,
ASLR


Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #268 on: May 13, 2017, 07:16:58 PM »
Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry

While I am well aware of Hoover's checkered past, I provide the following Wikipedia linked article for those less familiar with US history.  Nevertheless, it was not FDR's intent to politicize the FBI when he appointed Hoover, but to any thinking person, it is clear that Trump is trying to politicize the FBI in the middle of an on-going criminal investigation of his campaign and administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 07:25:03 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #269 on: May 13, 2017, 08:56:25 PM »
Read what I wrote, don't listen to the voices.
Terry

While I am well aware of Hoover's checkered past, I provide the following Wikipedia linked article for those less familiar with US history.  Nevertheless, it was not FDR's intent to politicize the FBI when he appointed Hoover, but to any thinking person, it is clear that Trump is trying to politicize the FBI in the middle of an on-going criminal investigation of his campaign and administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover


The very few Calvin Coolidge fans left will appreciate you blaming FDR for Hoover's appointment, but when Calvin did appoint Edgar it was to distance himself from allegations that former director William J. Burns had involvement with the teapot scandal. Republican Senator Fall wouldn't be jailed until 1929, but Republican President Warren G. Harding was already stained by the teapot spillage & his Attorney General would be forced from office.


To say that the directorship of the FBI hasn't been a politicized position is simply untenable. If you prefer to re-write history that's fine, but try refrain from stating facts that are so easy to refute.
You're welcome to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
Don't listen to the voices telling you what you think I'm saying - I'd prefer it if you'd read and respond to what I've actually written.
Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #270 on: May 13, 2017, 10:20:28 PM »
I think what Terry is saying, is that Trump being in bed with kleptocrats/oligarchs from other countries isn't unprecedented. The same could be said of the Bushes and Clintons, for instance. And hopefully going forward it won't be accepted from any future president to have such close ties to groups of mega-rich people.

As far as 'taking down democracy', etc. Globalisation and unfettered capitalism have already taken care of 90% of that. Maybe it doesn't feel that way to us because consumer culture still offers us plenty of choice/freedom in what we can consume, but when the money of mega-rich people acts like a sort of black hole that sucks everything into it, words like 'democracy' and 'freedom' become relative in that they mostly take place on a material level, for a limited group of people.

And you don't solve that by getting rid of a face you don't like, and replace it with a pretty face.

But let there be no doubt about it: Trump needs to be replaced. Lest you think I'm also a Trump apologist.  ;)

I just hope this Russiagate thing will do the trick, and doesn't backfire (for instance when Trump's oligarchs and those of the Republican Party strike a deal) or turns him into a martyr.
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Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #271 on: May 13, 2017, 10:31:46 PM »
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

! No longer available
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #272 on: May 14, 2017, 01:53:27 AM »
Don't listen to the voices telling you what you think I'm saying - I'd prefer it if you'd read and respond to what I've actually written.
Terry

Terry,

I can say the same thing about your posts.

Best,
ASLR

Edit: e.g.:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/12/donald-trump-fbi-kelly-ayotte-john-cornyn-215130

Extract: "After Hoover, Congress agreed that all future directors should be prevented from accumulating such power, yet doing the job well also required a certain freedom from day-to-day politics and short-term thinking, hence the decade-long term.

Ever since, there has always been a clear dividing line between the FBI and the normal and routine “politicization” of the Justice Department by presidential appointees—including the attorney general, deputy attorney general and the half-dozen assistant attorneys general who head the department’s various divisions. “The FBI is in the executive branch,” Comey often said as director, “but not of the executive branch.”

In the FBI’s entire centurylong history, it has never had an expressly political director. Hoover, for all his machinations as director, had actually spent his career at the Justice Department."

Edit2: Also, while it may seem to be splitting hairs, Coolidge appointed Hoover as the sixth Director of the Bureau of Investigation (the FBI's predecessor) in 1924; but Hoover became the first Director of the FBI in 1935.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover

Extract: "John Edgar Hoover (January 1, 1895 – May 2, 1972), better known as J. Edgar Hoover, was the first Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) of the United States. He was appointed as the sixth director of the Bureau of Investigation — the FBI's predecessor — in 1924 and was instrumental in founding the FBI in 1935, where he remained director until his death in 1972 at the age of 77

On May 10, 1924, President Calvin Coolidge appointed Hoover as the sixth Director of the Bureau of Investigation, partly in response to allegations that the prior director, William J. Burns, was involved in the Teapot Dome scandal.  When Hoover took over the Bureau of Investigation, it had approximately 650 employees, including 441 Special Agents."

Edit3:  The linked Palmer Report article emphasizes just how political appointing John Cornyn would be:

"We cannot let Donald Trump nominate John Cornyn as FBI Director, and not for the reason you think"

https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/we-cannot-let-donald-trump-nominate-john-cornyn-as-fbi-director-and-not-for-the-reason-you-think/2794/
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 02:54:21 AM by AbruptSLR »
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #273 on: May 14, 2017, 01:57:45 AM »
My concern ISN'T if he DOES get impeached......my much greater concern IS IF HE DOESN'T GET IMPEACHED/RESIGN.  THAT....is my worry.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #274 on: May 14, 2017, 03:31:16 AM »
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

It seems to me that Jimmy Dore is saying: "Why don't the establishment Democrat just sit quietly and let Donald Trump interfere with the Russia-Trump investigation as much as he wants".  As the linked article entitled: "How the President Obstructed Justice"; many legal scholars think that there is already sufficient public information to prove that Trump is obstructing justice.  Thus it is likely that without political cover by establishment GOP members like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, Trump could very soon be facing charges.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/05/did_president_trump_obstruct_justice_in_firing_james_comey.html

Extract: "Why legal scholar Laurence Tribe believes Trump committed impeachable offenses in his firing of James Comey."


Edit: See also the article entitled: "Paul Krugman: The Republican Party Is Just as Treasonous as Trump"

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/paul-krugman-republican-party-just-treasonous-trump

& the article entitled: "Donald Trump's Financial Ties to Russian Oligarchs and Mobsters Detailed In Explosive New Documentary from the Netherlands"

http://www.alternet.org/video/donald-trumps-financial-ties-russian-oligarchs-and-mobsters-detailed-new-documentary
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 10:34:47 AM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #275 on: May 14, 2017, 01:53:28 PM »
And here Jimmy Dore raises several issues that still worry me as well (the amount of attention of speculation that Russiagate gets, when there's still so little known about the investigation + what happens if Trump does get impeached or resigns?). Video is called Bernie: "May Turn Out Trump Did NOT Collude W/ Russia":

! No longer available


I think Jimmy's been reading this thread !!!


Collusion ???
What happens if he is impeached ???


I brought both topics up at a dinner last evening in Toronto. Both (ALL) sides of the political spectrum, except possibly moderates, were well represented.
Everyone in this group of Canadians sees whatever is going on now in the USofA to be one of the most dangerous threats to democracy that the West has faced in a very long time.
The US really does exert a tremendous influence on the rest of the world. If the US has no faith in her own electoral processes, why should the rest of the West have faith in the US?
The West may not always follow America's wants, nor give in to her demands, but the US is usually given the benefit of doubt. When American's claim that their election was a fraud & that their President is a liar and a cheat, how do you think the rest of the world should react?


We remember both Red Scare Witch Hunts, some other nations piled on too, but most now rue their actions.
Our leaders for the most part chant "Down With Putin", it's expected of them - but the citizenry are not entirely convinced. Canadians, to my disappointment, are pretty anti-Russian, possibly because of the large numbers of Ukrainians, Poles and Estonians that immigrated here after WWII. We have little like for, and even less respect for Trump. But we see what's occurring as a rhyme to the Red Scare of a generation past, and don't relish a repeat.
We (Canadians) didn't do Vietnam & we didn't do Iraq, and everyone I've met is proud of those decisions. We did lock up our Japanese, and some others during WWII, most feel this left a dark stain on our nations pride.
However things work themselves out south of the border, it's unlikely that Canadians will think it reflects well on your country. If Trump is vindicated, the cry will be. "Why did you persecute this innocent man?". If Trump is impeached, the cry will be, "Why did you elect this flawed man?"


Estonia, Poland, Ukrainian, China, and Serbia were all represented at the dinner, as was Israel, America, the British Isles and Canada, not bad for <40 in attendance. Canada is a country that prides itself on her diversity. All were in agreement that even if Russia had attempted to "hack the election", it almost certainly would have had little effect.


Probably 25% of those present had at least some software development experience. Lots of PhD's, lots of STEM grads and Professors. Not perhaps a good cross section, but definitely an interested demographic.


Hearts and minds are important & you're not operating in a vacuum.
You can tell me that what a bunch of egg heads in Toronto think doesn't matter, but don't complain when we're all driving Japanese or European cars.


Terry


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #276 on: May 14, 2017, 05:02:15 PM »
The parade of Palmer Reports on Russiagate continue:

“Investigation into Donald Trump’s Russia scandal has ensnared Donald Jr, Eric and Ivanka”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/eric-ivanka-jr-trump-russia/2812/

Extract: “The investigation into Donald Trump’s Russia scandal has become so far reaching that it involves not only two branches of the United States government, but also the intelligence agencies of a number of foreign nations. It’s become so sprawling that there are reportedly at least twenty-eight people being targeted. And now comes confirmation that three of them are Donald Trump’s children.“

&

“Report: sealed indictment issued against Donald Trump”

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/report-fisa-court-issues-sealed-indictment-against-donald-trump/2810/

Extract: “And what they’re jointly saying tonight is that a sealed indictment has been delivered against Donald Trump.

Let’s be clear here: this is not an indictment against a Donald Trump associate or adviser, or some other ancillary player. Taylor and Mensch are jointly stating tonight on Mensch’s site that the sealed indictment is against Donald Trump himself.

That may sound unlikely, considering Trump’s own Republican Party has a majority in both the House and Senate. But my own stated view all along has been that if damning enough evidence against Trump surfaces in the Russia scandal such that his approval rating falls far enough, the Congressional Republicans in moderate states and districts will have to consider moving forward with the impeachment process in order to protect their own chances of reelection in the midterms. In such case the GOP would put its own interests before Trump. And only around 10% of the Republicans in the House would need to join House Democrats to form the simple majority vote required to begin impeachment hearings."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #277 on: May 14, 2017, 05:52:21 PM »
Thanks for your answer, Terry. So we agree that delegitimizing someone in power can be a valuable, if flawed, tool. I would say that it becomes more necessary as the power differential shifts. The Dems are now now in the minority in the House and Senate, they don't hold the White House, and they are in the process of seeing the SCOTUS return to majority conservative.

I'd say that they have to use every tool in their arsenal at this point.

But yeah, I always prefer purely positive campaigns, but then I'm rather politically naive.

I helped a friend get through a local primary. Found myself effectively using verbal trickery in negotiations with the other candidates. Scared myself that I was so good at it. Not something I want to do again anytime soon.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #278 on: May 14, 2017, 07:03:43 PM »
The linked Joe Romm article is entitled: "Will Trump’s spiraling constitutional crisis end up saving the Paris climate deal?".  Will Trump's firing of Comey encourage Trump to work more cooperatively with foreign leaders?

https://thinkprogress.org/will-trump-crisis-save-paris-262dbf73d294

Extract: "“Presidents who get into trouble at home look to engage other leaders on the world stage to demonstrate legitimacy.”"
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #279 on: May 15, 2017, 02:12:12 AM »
I smell the scent of "shit hitting the fan" this week.  A lot of seams are unwinding:

1)  Continued reaction to the Comey firing
2)  More dots connecting Manafort and Russia medeling starting at least in March/April of 2016
3)  James Clapper stepping up to the plate big time...
4)  Donnie threating to end daily briefings
5)  Comey more than happy to meet with the Senate AS LONG AS IT IS PUBLIC....

The process will continue with ebbs and flows.....this week I expect to TOP LAST WEEK.....

Here's an interesting read...take your time reading this one.  It is well worth it....

http://www.bluedotdaily.com/april-16th-the-moment-trumprussia-scandal-started-but-everyone-missed-it/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=LL&utm_campaign=facebook_LL

And the PalmerReport is always an interesting read....

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/flunky-trump-indictment/2818/

This could be Spricey's last week.  I will miss him when he goes.

Remember....Donnie loves confusion....especially when bad things are happening in his camp.  I expect a lot of fireworks to come....





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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #280 on: May 15, 2017, 02:55:57 AM »
The linked article is entitled: "‘It’s inevitable’: GOP senators warn Trump he’ll be breaking the law if he doesn’t turn over Oval Office tapes".

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/its-inevitable-gop-senators-warn-trump-hell-be-breaking-the-law-if-he-doesnt-turn-over-oval-office-tapes/

Extract: "On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said “If there are any tapes of this conversation, they need to be turned over.”

Former federal prosecutor-turned-Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) told Fox News that “it’s probably inevitable” that any ‘Trump tapes’ that exist will be turned over to Congress, and if not, they will likely be subpoenaed."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #281 on: May 15, 2017, 01:48:22 PM »
Pressure:  The burden of physical or mental distress.

As noted before....the continual application of pressure causes mistakes.  The more pressure, the more mistakes.  The longer that pressure lasts....the more mistakes happen.

Donnie is likely becoming more and more delusional as time passes.....and as his "inner circle" becomes smaller and smaller.  Do we have 15 more months of this until US Representatives and Senators have had enough?  Maybe.  Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell haven't "broken ranks" yet.  So there is certainly more time ahead of us.

Now.....the pressure is even starting to spillover to at least one part of TASS FOX News via Chris Wallace.  THAT....is not going to help approval polls over the coming weeks if that continues.

As you can see on the latest Gallup opinion poll......Donnie's approval rating is now down to 39% and his disapproval is up to 56% as of the latest Gallup poll of May 13th.  I expect his poll numbers to continue to SLOWLY worsen in coming weeks/months.  It may take many months to move down to the 30% approval area or BELOW.  Clearly.....Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell need more "persuading"....and more "pressure" in order to change their minds.

The fascinating thing for me....is to watch and see how long it will be until DONNIE CAVES....or if indeed he does cave.  Richard Nixon was delusional right to the end in August of 1974.  Looking and hoping for any way possible to make his way through the mine fields.  I expect Donnie may do the same.  One of the differences THIS TIME however.....is the inclusion of the three stooges from his family into the mess:  Ivanka, Eric, and Donald Jr.  THEY have been swept up into this whole mess.....and they will be facing charges.   Whether or not THAT will cause Donnie to "throw in the towel" earlier than Richard Nixon did.....we don't know.  Donnie had no problem getting them involved in this mess in the first place.....it might be out of character for him to consider anyone else other than himself now.  They could be used as a "bargaining chip" down the road:  Donnie will "give up the fight"....if they cut a deal for his kids.  Just a thought....you may want to file that one away for a bit.

I also have to think that Donnie's tax returns ARE GOING TO BE SUBPEONED.  Maybe that could be a tipping point for Donnie.  I don't know.  It's hard to predict what the mind of a sociopath is thinking.  Look for a crazy week this week. 

Also....I wonder what Donnie is going to talk to Vlad' about when the Russian president meets with him in two months (July) in Washington DC?  Maybe a "vacation house" in Russia for the Trumps? ;)
 



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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #282 on: May 15, 2017, 02:16:37 PM »
Mitch McConnel (the leader in the senate) and Paul Ryan (the leader in the House of Representatives)...still haven't "broken" from Trump. They will eventually....but it is going to take more "persuassion" from the public (meaning: Lower poll ratings for Donnie).

It's pretty amazing to me.....that both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnel put their party ideology ahead of what's good for the country. But that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

BOTH of them have so far refused to ask for an INDEPENDENT PROSECUTOR in the RussiaGate investigation. They CLEARLY NEED MORE PRESSURE:

McConnell phone number: (270) 781-1673
Paul Ryan phone number: (608) 752-4050


You may want to give them a call to "guide" them in the right direction.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #283 on: May 15, 2017, 03:57:57 PM »
I'm sure there is nothing here..... ;)



Again....here are Mitch and Paul's phone numbers for a little "persuasion":

McConnell phone number: (270) 781-1673
Paul Ryan phone number: (608) 752-4050
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 04:17:41 PM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #284 on: May 15, 2017, 04:34:04 PM »
Part II......"nothing here"..... ;)

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #285 on: May 15, 2017, 05:03:23 PM »
Putin and Trump scheduled to meet in Hamburg during the G20 meetings.  Think the US intelligence agents are going to be working OVERTIME in the next month or two BEFORE THAT MEETING?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/trump-putin-meeting-hamburg/

Things are going to pick up the pace in coming days........  WATCH THE DOTS.....THEY ARE CONNECTING.....

Tick....tick....tick.....tick....
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #286 on: May 15, 2017, 11:55:42 PM »
With today's news that POTUS Trump revealed highly sensitive and classified information to the Russian FM and Ambassador in the Oval Office, along with everything from last week, the process for Trump's departure will likely accelerate.  What's completely unclear is the final disposition, and what comes afterwards.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #287 on: May 15, 2017, 11:57:39 PM »
Remember that meeting at the request of Putin the day after the head of the FBI was fired? That was Putin's men collecting.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html

Extract:
Quote
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.


The article notes this is perfectly legal. The president can declassify documents whenever he wants.  So nothing to see here. It is perfectly legal for the president to reveal national security sources if he wants.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #288 on: May 15, 2017, 11:58:53 PM »
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #289 on: May 16, 2017, 02:50:42 PM »
Quote
On June 3rd, Americans across the nation will take to the streets, marching to demand answers and transparency regarding the investigation into Russia's interference in our election and their ties to Donald Trump.
http://shareblue.com/more-than-70-cities-will-march-for-truth-to-demand-independent-russian-probe/#.WRqNWU82I_M.facebook

The process continues.....


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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #290 on: May 16, 2017, 03:13:24 PM »
Remember that meeting at the request of Putin the day after the head of the FBI was fired? That was Putin's men collecting.

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html

Extract:
Quote
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.


The article notes this is perfectly legal. The president can declassify documents whenever he wants.  So nothing to see here. It is perfectly legal for the president to reveal national security sources if he wants.

It may be legal but that does not stop it from being dumb. He may have given the Russians sufficient info to let them follow the trail to the source. In the worst case scenario, that could put someone's life at risk. In the best case scenario, the US's allies (and the US intelligence agencies themselves) may / will be reluctant to pass on intelligence of a very sensitive nature to the leaky bucket that is the White House.

A secret shared is no longer a secret.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #291 on: May 16, 2017, 03:21:35 PM »
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...

Maybe we should call it co-operation?

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #292 on: May 16, 2017, 03:35:36 PM »
In the not-too-distant future....I think we can expect to see demonstrations IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE with his own immortal words:

LOCK HIM UP

And those crowds will continue to grow in size......UNTIL THERE IS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

Pressure is going to mount throughout the summer.  If Donnie wants to "string this thing out"....it is going to cost both him and the Republicans a great deal.  The longer this goes on....the better and better it gets for the Democrat's.

If I were a Republican strategist......I would want my folks to end the charade AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.  The trouble with that is.....RussiaGate is SO BROARD AND SO DEEP.....there is no way to end this thing quickly.  This is not "your fathers Watergate."  This is soooooo much more.



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #293 on: May 16, 2017, 05:54:44 PM »
The linked Palmer Report article raises the important question of how long Trump has been giving classified US secrets to Russia:

"Based on Donald Trump’s own words, I think he’s been giving classified info to Russia since March"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/march-trump-russia/2861/
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #294 on: May 16, 2017, 06:25:38 PM »
So now the President is a traitor to the US, having leaked highly-classified intelligence to the Russians who visited with him in the Oval Office out of sight of the American press the day after he fired the Director of the FBI who was investigating Trump for colluding with the Russians.

I suppose tomorrow we'll be subjected to McConnell and Ryan saying that we simply can't respond every time the President discloses classified data to our enemies...

Maybe we should call it co-operation?

Unless you're doing it rogue without consultation with the rest of your security team. Somehow, this doesn't look like cooperation.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #295 on: May 16, 2017, 06:35:20 PM »
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually. Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

The fact is -- one can interpret the tea leaves any way he or she likes. But tea leaves don't stand up in court. The investigation will continue sans Comey (it always was anyways). There is strong risk to the downside for news organizations engaging in heavy speculation though. If it turns out there isn't any serious collusion (or about anything necessarily important) then the entire strategy backfires.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #296 on: May 16, 2017, 07:32:29 PM »
Quote
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually.

Not sure you understand how they do investigations in the US.  They investigate FIRST....THEN prosecute.  We're not to the prosecute stage where we begin to see all the pieces fitting together.

Quote
Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

You're dreaming.  We have a long way to go.... and Donnie's approval ratings continue to fall.  Nixon didn't reach the low point of his approval ratings for more than another year FROM NOW....
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #297 on: May 16, 2017, 07:33:58 PM »
This thing running on forever without any concrete evidence falling on the floor is going to backfire eventually. Voters will eventually say PUSU: Put up or shut up.

The fact is -- one can interpret the tea leaves any way he or she likes. But tea leaves don't stand up in court. The investigation will continue sans Comey (it always was anyways). There is strong risk to the downside for news organizations engaging in heavy speculation though. If it turns out there isn't any serious collusion (or about anything necessarily important) then the entire strategy backfires.

Pinning explicit collusion with Russia's actions to influence the election directly on Trump may be extremely difficult in a court of law, less so with some in his campaign that have fewer layers of deniability.

What is more likely proven from an evidentiary process relate to his known history of financial struggles and debt and associations with Russian monied interests, so money laundering and RICO statutes.  The investigations in process include these financial elements, but there needs to be proof.

Trump by his recent actions and instability is ironically increasing the odds of Republicans considering replacement via Amendment 25 incompetence provisions, but we all knew the guy was unfit from the get go.  He's his own worst enemy right now, not the media or the courts.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #298 on: May 16, 2017, 08:02:49 PM »
I don't think there will ever find enough evidence for a criminal case, at least not on Putin's side or for Trump personally. Many of the middlemen have already been caught and many more may be caught. It hasn't phased anyone. The ones that can do something stand to lose too much to do something.

The proof will be in Trumps presidency. The policy that Putin was able to infiltrate is already large at work. The US is surrendering international power. protectionism and xenophobia are taking hold. Trump is doing a fantastic job denying climate change. If Trump is not impeached, the policies will take hold and Trump will increase his influence through judges, Attorneys and all sort of named officials whose number one selection criteria was loyalty to Trump. Trump will continue to leak information to Putin since he already set the precedent.

Now eventually, once the US is weak, Putin will turn on Trump. At that point Trump will realize how foolish he was.... hahaha just kidding, he will never realize he was duped, he'll just blame somebody else.

The proof will be the downfall of the US and the rise of Russia. 

Edit: the preceding analysis completly ignores a blue ocean event. If that happens forget about economics and politics as we know them.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #299 on: May 16, 2017, 08:17:30 PM »
For those who haven't noticed, the information that Trump gifted to Russia will likely end up known by Russian ally, Al Assad, who will probably fill incinerators with people related to this source.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.