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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #600 on: June 19, 2017, 07:11:50 AM »
The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light."


And states that No Evidence has been presented.


The story, from June 5th, by a "Pro Clinton Partisan" was followed on June 6th by this "Pro Peace Partisan"


http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/06/do-not-trust-the-intercept-or-how-to-burn-a-source.html


The responses offer interesting information.
Terry

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #601 on: June 19, 2017, 01:15:15 PM »
Echos of Watergate continue to reverberate.  I continue to marvel at people who say there is no proof....

Donnie and his crew of plumbers are trying to stop the leaks...and at the same time working their PR game of "witch hunt".  The Nixon strategy was much the same:

1.  Discredit the press
2.  Claim it is all a witch hunt
3.  Try to pretend there is "nothing there"

Laughable.  Human psychology is fascinating.....😉



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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #602 on: June 19, 2017, 05:27:55 PM »
And states that No Evidence has been presented.

I suspect that Mueller has much more evidence that has not been leaked yet, and per the linked article, Team Mueller may acquire much more evidence by using their new expert on witness-flipping:

"Mueller team lawyer brings witness-flipping expertise to Trump probes"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-lawyers-idUSKBN19A1CM

Extract: "A veteran federal prosecutor recruited onto special counsel Robert Mueller's team is known for a skill that may come in handy in the investigation of potential ties between Russia and U.S. President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign team: persuading witnesses to turn on friends, colleagues and superiors.

Andrew Weissmann, who headed the U.S. Justice Department's criminal fraud section before joining Mueller's team last month, is best known for two assignments - the investigation of now-defunct energy company Enron and organized crime cases in Brooklyn, New York - that depended heavily on gaining witness cooperation."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #603 on: June 19, 2017, 05:43:12 PM »
If Trump's approval rating drops to, or below, 30% he is toast (per the attached plot he is currently near 38%):


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #604 on: June 20, 2017, 12:56:56 AM »
While different polls give different values, the linked current AP poll only gives Trump a 35% approval rating:

https://apnews.com/024824c4f6ce4eddae98f4156e36553e
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #605 on: June 20, 2017, 03:56:37 PM »
And the parade of Palmer Report hits on Team Trump continues:

"Donald Trump’s worst nightmare: Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort are both cooperating in Russia probe"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/donald-trumps-worst-nightmare-flynn-manafort-russia-probe/3533/

Extract: "First came word earlier today from Democratic members of Congress that Michael Flynn had been caught sneaking off to Saudi Arabia for a secret nuclear deal with the Russians (link). But that was just the warm up act. Hours later another Democratic Senator appeared live on CNN and revealed that he believes Flynn has already cut a deal with the FBI (link). Then came word from the Washington Post that Paul Manafort is cooperating with a Trump-Russia subpoena (link). So why is this all happening at once?"

&

"Report: Jeff Sessions to exit Donald Trump administration after Sean Spicer’s departure"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-jeff-sessions-donald-trump-sean-spicer-departure/3531/
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #606 on: June 21, 2017, 02:49:53 AM »
'Morning Joe' suspects that Flynn has the goods on Trump, because Trump has never defended anyone in his career like he has and continues to defend Flynn:

http://www.alternet.org/morning-joe-suspects-michael-flynn-has-goods-trump
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #607 on: June 21, 2017, 03:04:28 AM »
My "count" on the number of CABINET members that will be INDICTED in RussiaGate is now at 3. This doesn't count Donnie's sons and daughter....nor does it count Mikey Pence.  I'm talking about Jeff Sessions + 2 other formal cabinet members that are still current cabinet members.  More later as time passes.

Attorneys are really going to be busy over the next 12+ months.😳
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 02:48:16 PM by Buddy »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #608 on: June 21, 2017, 04:03:31 AM »
Trump's money laundering of Russian money is coming back to bite him in the rear:

"Treasury Department’s financial crimes unit is giving up Donald Trump’s money laundering records"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/treasury-department-trump-money-laundering-records/3537/

Extract: "The financial crimes unit is turning over its financial records in relation to Donald Trump’s business, according to a CNN report (link). As Palmer Report was the first to report back on April 15th (link), the Treasury FinCEN division busted the Trump Taj Mahal casino for money laundering back in the spring of 2015. This was announced in a press release on the FinCEN website (link), but it only became a part of the Senate’s Trump-Russia investigation after our research team dug it up and publicized it."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #609 on: June 21, 2017, 03:15:06 PM »
For those of you who keep thinking that Donnie is close to resigning...I have some bad news for you.  He isn't even close.  As long as he maintains support from most of the House and Senate...he isn't going anywhere.

He will continue to try and dig himself out of the mess he has gotten himself into.  And you have to understand that he is surrounded by people who are "all in" as well.  People with no ethics...that have gone along with the schenanigans because the are profiting as well.  They are now reliant on each other....Donnie needs them to "stay in the fold"....and they will as long as Donnie either (1) promises a big payday down the road, or (2) funnels money or other assets/benefits to them now.

Donnie can NOT afford a couple of important defections.  And Donnie can NOT afford to see his approval ratings tank into the mid-to-high 20's, which is why I expect to see more of Donnie on the campaign trail when he is not busy golfing.

And never forget that Donnie will do ANYTHING to stay in power.  He wants much of what Vlad has...and will do anything to get it.

The two big questions are:  (1) Will the FBI be able to FINISH the investigation, and (2) will the FBI be able to "flip" AT LEAST a couple of the "big fish" to corraborate all the financial and other information they are now digging up?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:07:59 PM by Buddy »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #610 on: June 21, 2017, 03:30:58 PM »
The linked article emphasizes that Trump already appears to be putting his thumb on the intelligence community:

"Donald Trump’s CIA Director Mike Pompeo looks dirtier in the Russia scandal by the minute"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-cia-mike-pompeo-dirtier-minute/3541/

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #611 on: June 21, 2017, 06:39:00 PM »
Homeland Security official: Russian government actors tried to hack election systems in 21 states

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/homeland-security-official-russian-government-actors-potentially-tried-to-hack-election-systems-in-21-states/2017/06/21/33bf31d4-5686-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html

Quote
Samuel Liles, the Department of Homeland Security’s acting director of the Office of Intelligence and Analysis Cyber Division, said vote tallying mechanisms were unaffected, and the hackers appeared to be scanning for vulnerabilities — which Liles likened to walking down the street and looking at homes to see who might be inside.

But hackers successfully exploited a “small number” of networks, Liles said, likening the act to making it through a home’s front door.
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #612 on: June 21, 2017, 10:11:40 PM »
Note:  Three things are currently happening.....

1). President Bannon is trying to blow things up.  Donnie isn't governing.....President Bannon is.  And he wants to blow things up.  This could be a help to Donnie.....as it will distract from the ongoing drumbeat of things that are being uncovered between Donnie and the Russians....and Donnie and the mob(s) (US and Russian).

2). Fossil fuel companies are trying to extend their life.  Tillerson, Rick Perry, and others in the cabinet and administration are more than happy to help.

3). Donnie is trying to enrich his family as much as possible.....and he has a lot of help in Congress to do so.  A LOT.  More than you will ever know.  And Donnie is going to HAVE to get the FBI investigation shut down.....otherwise they will ruin his financial corruption that is now taking place.

Fortunately for Donnie.....he has a mouthpiece that is all too willing to continue to lie for him:  FOX News.  They really are a lot like TASS is for Russia....and FOX will continue to help him spread his lies and put him in the best light possible.

Interesting bedfellows for sure....

« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:19:08 AM by Buddy »
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #613 on: June 22, 2017, 01:19:43 AM »
Just who in Trump's close circle isn't under investigation now?

"Kellyanne Conway is under investigation for Russia ties"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-investigation-russia-ties/3549/

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #614 on: June 22, 2017, 01:34:25 AM »
Finally, Congress is questioning whether Kushner's security clearance should be revoked:

"Democrats Seek Records On Jared Kushner As Administration Tries To Stifle Oversight"

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/21/533822177/democrats-seek-records-on-jared-kushner-as-administration-tries-to-stifle-oversi

"Democrats on the House Oversight Committee want to see White House records on the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, his security clearance and his access to classified information.

In a letter to White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, the oversight panel's 18 Democrats question why Kushner's security clearance hasn't been revoked."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #615 on: June 23, 2017, 01:31:00 PM »
The WP article discusses Obama's efforts to punish Russia for Putin's assault on the 2016 election.  Now Trump is encouraging Russia and continuing to attack Obama:

"Obama’s secret struggle to punish Russia for Putin’s election assault"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf

Extract: "Early last August, an envelope with extraordinary handling restrictions arrived at the White House. Sent by courier from the CIA, it carried “eyes only” instructions that its contents be shown to just four people: President Barack Obama and three senior aides.

Inside was an intelligence bombshell, a report drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government that detailed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s direct involvement in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the U.S. presidential race.

But it went further. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #616 on: June 23, 2017, 05:32:06 PM »
The WP article discusses Obama's efforts to punish Russia for Putin's assault on the 2016 election.  Now Trump is encouraging Russia and continuing to attack Obama:

"Obama’s secret struggle to punish Russia for Putin’s election assault"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/obama-putin-election-hacking/?utm_term=.227e42df84bf

Extract: "Early last August, an envelope with extraordinary handling restrictions arrived at the White House. Sent by courier from the CIA, it carried “eyes only” instructions that its contents be shown to just four people: President Barack Obama and three senior aides.

Inside was an intelligence bombshell, a report drawn from sourcing deep inside the Russian government that detailed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s direct involvement in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the U.S. presidential race.

But it went further. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump."

A lot to unpack in that comprehensive article.  I would encourage everyone to read it from start to finish.  It only adds credence to and a sense of despair over the successful attack on American sovereignty by Vladimir Putin and the Russian intelligence apparatus.  It should be considered an act of war.  It's clear that President Obama failed to use his powers to act in defense of the US and instead deferred to optics and pressure from Mitch McConnell.  Shameful.  Even more shameful are the actions of the key players on the Repuboican side, including McConnell and up through Donald Trump.  They are traitors to the idea of American democracy and sovereignty.  Self interest, greed, and party over country.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #617 on: June 23, 2017, 08:08:56 PM »
Months ago I said that Trump would continue to use FOX as his mouthpiece more and more....almost as his exclusive news (albeit fake news) outlet.  We're still moving in that direction...but the REAL news outlets are going to ramp up their calling out the lies of Trump more and more.  They still aren't calling out Donnie's pundits as liars to their face, but the WILL get there over coming weeks and months.

Donnie and his cronies have an IMMENCE capacity to lie.....the Sec of Defence is the only person with any real measure of ethics.

Look for the real press to ramp up their efforts in coming weeks/months, as it becomes clearer and clearer that the corruption goes much deeper and broader than expected....and starts to implicate more folks in the Senate and House.....not just Donnie and his close advisors.



FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #618 on: June 23, 2017, 08:19:11 PM »
Some of you folks might br surprised that Trey Gowdy isn't investigating some of the schenanigans in RussiaGate.  You shouldn't be surprised.

If I had no ethics....and I was trying to help in the coverup like Trey Gowdy...I wouldn't help either.  The last thing I would want to do is any investigation that implicates myself.😚

Gowdy is just another in a growing list that of folks who will eventually be caught up...as long as the investigation is allowed to finish....  I would expect him to continue to provide cover.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #619 on: June 24, 2017, 04:15:50 PM »
For those who fall prey to Trump's reality bending BS, ask yourself why Trump's campaign and the Kremlin were always saying the same thing to attack a fellow American in order to disrupt order to the benefit of kleptocrats around the world.

Title: “Everyone piles on after Donald Trump slips up and admits Russia rigged the election for him”

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/everyone-donald-trump-admits-russia-rigged-election/3602/

Extract: “Counterintelligence expert Clint Watts also hit back: “Maybe Obama admin trying to figure out why you & Kremlin were saying the same things at the same time while election hacks were occurring. Or maybe they were trying to figure out why you would cite Russian false propaganda to mislead Americans and attack a fellow American.”“
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #620 on: June 24, 2017, 04:49:08 PM »
There's a veritable flood of news reporting today about the details of Putin's meddling in the US election.
Some here have pointed out that most of the news is the conclusions of intelligence and investigative agencies, not detailed facts on which such conclusions might be based.  The same voices cite the example of Saddam Hussein's alleged WMDs to show that intelligence findings can't be taken at face value.

There's a grain of truth to those concerns, but only a grain.  When the relevant core facts are obtained by intelligence agencies, these facts are generally classified.  They can't legally be reported to the public, only leaks of classified information and conclusions of the agencies ever become public.  We have those in some abundance.  It's the most solid basis the public *can* have for drawing conclusions.

Further, the Iraqi WMD matter was quite different.  The conclusion that WMDs existed was *never* a consensus conclusion of intelligence agencies, it was an idea formulated and pushed by the White House.  Bush Jr. took specious "evidence" to create an obviously false narrative (see e.g., "yellow cake" and "aluminum tubes" and a specified "biological weapons lab" that wasn't even in territory controlled by Saddam).

This is a totally different situation.  Professional, non-partisan, career intelligence agency heads have a consensus view that Putin meddled in the election.  That's as close to being an undeniable fact as anyone *can* have in such a matter.  For details, see:

 Evidence is mounting that Russia took 4 clear paths to meddle in the US election
http://www.businessinsider.com/evidence-russia-meddled-in-us-election-2017-6

Election Hackers Altered Voter Rolls, Stole Private Data, Officials Say
http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/

Russians targeted 21 election systems, U.S. official says
http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/

Cyberattacks – why is the US so vulnerable? This is the big question Congressional Russia probes should be asking
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/22/cyberattacks-why-is-us-so-vulnerable-this-is-big-question-congressional-russia-probes-should-be-asking.html

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #621 on: June 24, 2017, 06:10:03 PM »
When atomic scientists warn us all about the dangers of falling under the reality bending (brainwashing) spell of the kleptocrats that control the populists, it is time to listen (see the image of the relationship of Trump, the novel/movie "The Manchurian Candidate" and populist brainwashing):

http://thebulletin.org/trumping-manchurian-candidate10848

Extract: "Both novel and film focus on brainwashing and its potential for skewing US politics. (Brainwashing back then was a new term in English, a literal translation of a Chinese phrase.) In both novel and film, scientists from the Soviet Union collude with their Red Chinese counterparts to turn an American soldier, Sgt. Raymond Shaw, into a killing machine, one whose ultimate job will be to assassinate the American president.

But the number one villain of the piece is Shaw’s own mother, indelibly played in the 1962 film version by Angela Lansbury—for which she was named one of the top 25 cinema villains in Time. It is she, as the “American operative” working hand-in-glove with Communist masterminds, who will direct the mission intended to hand the reins of national power to her new husband, the buffoonish vice-presidential candidate. (She chillingly sums up the plot’s goal as “rallying a nation of viewers to hysteria, to sweep us up into the White House with powers that will make martial law seem like anarchy.”) Though her stated political views are conservative and overtly anti-Communist, she is in fact ruled by a pragmatic determination to serve herself, even at her country’s expense. The derailing of her plot by the end of the story means we don’t know just how far she was prepared to go, but her steadfast exaltation of self above the public’s interests suggests a clear and present danger to the people of the world.

Sound familiar?

One overall message of The Manchurian Candidate is that Russia and its allies are not to be trusted. Nor should we trust those who make nice with the Russians for their own personal gain.  The striking thing about Lansbury’s character, Mrs. John Yerkes Iselin, is the way she plays both sides of the street. As the ambitious wife of a lackluster politician (in an era when a woman could only aspire to be the power behind the throne), she has carefully molded her spouse into a populist, a chap whose amiable mediocrity is attractive to the common man. Then she plays the anti-Communism card: Soon Senator Iselin is grabbing headlines with sweeping McCarthy-esque allegations about the number of Reds in the State Department. Underneath it all, though, Mrs. Iselin is using covert Soviet tools to undermine an American presidential election. The fact that her own son, Sgt. Shaw, is to be the assassin is something she accepts with equanimity.

There’s little sense, thank goodness, that our current administration is made up of murderous stooges whose brains are addled (or, in Condon’s term, “dry-cleaned”) to this degree. Rather, the Trumpians who hold the reins of power seem to feel that they’re clear-eyed patriots mandated to shake up a moribund system by inventing rules of conduct as they go along. In their own minds, they’re independent thinkers. Still, it’s entirely possible they can be tripped up or compromised by forces much too subtle to reveal their true intentions. After all, there’s more than one way to be duped—or to dupe oneself.

Although The Manchurian Candidate is by no means an exact prediction of what is happening today, book and film are starting to look extremely prescient. In the course of the story, the mechanism used to control the actions of the brainwashed Sgt. Shaw is the Queen of Diamonds in an ordinary deck of playing cards. Whenever Shaw (Laurence Harvey in the film) threatens to exert his own independence, a voice on the phone suggests that he pass the time with a little game of Solitaire. As soon as he turns up the Queen, he’s under the thumb of whomever issues a firm command. Right now the Queen of Diamonds seems to be running rampant in Washington, DC. And basic democratic principles are being trumped by the man with the loudest voice."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #622 on: June 24, 2017, 09:50:51 PM »
As the President of the United States may well be a criminal and may be working to replace "Rule by Law" with "Rule by Man"; I thought that that it might be helpful to provide a link to the Wikipedia article on criminology, so that we can better appreciate what society should consider to address such likely criminal behavior:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Archimid

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #623 on: June 24, 2017, 11:21:03 PM »
To me the answer to this question is obvious. To Trump, the answer to this question is a mystery.  He lacks the ethical knowledge to understand the problem.

Trump on Russian election meddling: Focus on Obama administration

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/24/trump-obama-russia-election-meddling-239927

Quote
On Friday night, he also wrote: "Just out: The Obama Administration knew far in advance of November 8th about election meddling by Russia. Did nothing about it. WHY?"
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MrVisible

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #624 on: June 24, 2017, 11:31:55 PM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #625 on: June 25, 2017, 03:38:07 PM »
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #626 on: June 25, 2017, 06:14:51 PM »
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "

I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #627 on: June 25, 2017, 09:31:15 PM »
I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

When you have been wronged, and you go to trial, do you want your attorney to be your advocate?  The two party system works by both sides advocating their respective constituents and we all hope that consequently the system stays in balance.  As per the US Constitution, impeachment is a political act, I most certainly hope that Schiff advocates on the side of the Democrats (and don't even try to imply that the GOP operates without bias, especially after Mitch McConnell's behavior).

Best,
ASLR

Edit: If you are looking for impartiality, you can hold Bob Mueller to that standard.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 09:43:38 PM by AbruptSLR »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #628 on: June 25, 2017, 09:32:34 PM »
Per the linked Palmer Report article, Adam Schiff stated that he believes that it is legal to criminally prosecute POTUS, within the Federal judicial system.  Go Mueller!:

"Adam Schiff has something up his sleeve, hints at Donald Trump being prosecuted for his crimes"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/adam-schiff-there-is-no-legal-prohibition-against-prosecuting-donald-trump/3614/

Extract: "Schiff, who has past experience as a prosecutor, just said the following: “My view is there’s no legal prohibition on prosecuting a President of the United States.” "

I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

Schiff's position makes perfect sense to me.  There is no constitutional immunity granted to the President for criminal acts.  True, only Congress can impeach, but that's a process for removal, not for criminal prosecution.

During Watergate, some officials felt that prosecution of a sitting President was precluded by the disruption to Presidential duties.  It seems clear that an active investigation (which is permitted) is itself quite disruptive, and a prosecution after investigation would not excessively add to that disruption.  None of these quasi-judicial opinions have been weighed in an actual court.

Really, I think the reluctance to prosecute a sitting President couldn't possibly hold if, for example, a President were videotaped murdering someone in the Oval office.  Thus, whether or not a President could be prosecuted would depend on the severity of the crime and quality of evidence.  A speeding ticket should be set aside, RICO violations, not so much.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #629 on: June 25, 2017, 09:37:39 PM »
Really, I think the reluctance to prosecute a sitting President couldn't possibly hold if, for example, a President were videotaped murdering someone in the Oval office.  Thus, whether or not a President could be prosecuted would depend on the severity of the crime and quality of evidence.  A speeding ticket should be set aside, RICO violations, not so much.

While I do not have access to the evidence that Mueller has, I highly suspect that Trump has at least committed RICO violations, and likely other high crimes.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #630 on: June 25, 2017, 09:54:26 PM »
If he has sufficient evidence, it might be good if Mueller were to prosecute Trump on criminal charges, just so the SCOTUS can make a ruling on this point of law:

"Can a sitting president be indicted? The Constitution doesn't give a definitive answer"

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/can_a_sitting_president_be_indicted_the_constitution_doesnt_give_a_definiti

Extract: "The U.S. Supreme Court has never decided whether a president may be criminally prosecuted while in office, and the U.S. Constitution doesn’t give a direct answer."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #631 on: June 25, 2017, 10:42:38 PM »
My layman opinion is that the president can certainly be prosecuted and even found guilty. The thing is that the president has the power of pardon and he can certainly pardon himself. He can also pardon all his accomplices.  To be removed from office congress must use his impeachment powers.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #632 on: June 26, 2017, 12:43:35 AM »
I read your posts on this thread with great interest ASLR, but I question just how objective Rep. Schiff is on this matter.

BudM

When you have been wronged, and you go to trial, do you want your attorney to be your advocate?  The two party system works by both sides advocating their respective constituents and we all hope that consequently the system stays in balance.  As per the US Constitution, impeachment is a political act, I most certainly hope that Schiff advocates on the side of the Democrats (and don't even try to imply that the GOP operates without bias, especially after Mitch McConnell's behavior).

Best,
ASLR

Edit: If you are looking for impartiality, you can hold Bob Mueller to that standard.

I question the wisdom of Schiff's assertions made at this time. I just don't see it as productive. No doubt in my mind that Trump is a crook and is involved to some degree, (perhaps a very large degree!) with Russiagate. I do trust Mueller and look forward to finding out the results of his inquiry. That will be a good time to discuss legal actions and impeachment.

Regards,

BudM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #633 on: June 26, 2017, 03:01:02 AM »

I question the wisdom of Schiff's assertions made at this time. I just don't see it as productive. No doubt in my mind that Trump is a crook and is involved to some degree, (perhaps a very large degree!) with Russiagate. I do trust Mueller and look forward to finding out the results of his inquiry. That will be a good time to discuss legal actions and impeachment.

Regards,

BudM

I think the point is that Ryan & McConnell might protect Trump by suppressing the public release of Mueller's report and refusing to initiate impeachment proceedings even if the report has evidence of Trump's guilt.  Thus as a Special Counsel has the power to form grand juries, Mueller could initiate a public trial thus getting around GOP politics.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #634 on: June 26, 2017, 03:09:16 AM »
You have to understand that much of this "battle" that we refer to as RussiaGate....plays out in the eyes of PUBLIC PERCEPTION.  Donnie and his folks....and FOX News....are well aware that.  If they lose the PUBLIC via the polls....they lose.

I have no problem with what Shiff as said regarding the investigation.  He's a successful prosecutor...and NOT an over the top prosecutor.  He knows the parameters.

Mueller's investigation is going to take time....I think most of you can now see just how complex and broad this investigation has become.  Some of Donnies folks will CONTINUE to try and get this shut down....especially those that are ALREADY caught up in its web.

There is a LOT of financial schenanigans to wade through.  A LOT.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #635 on: June 26, 2017, 03:16:54 AM »
The linked article reviews some of the ways that Mueller's investigation could be short-circuited by either Team Trump and/or the Congressional GOP leadership:

"No, We Can’t Rely On The Special Counsel To Uncover The Cover-Up"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/no-we-cant-rely-on-the-special-counsel-to-uncover_us_593ae740e4b0b65670e569fd

Extract: "There’s no guarantee that Mueller will be allowed to complete his investigation, or that his findings will be disclosed if he does."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #636 on: June 26, 2017, 03:49:19 AM »
The linked article discusses some of the limits of Mueller's powers:

Title: "The powers and limits of Robert Mueller's new job as special counsel"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-powers-and-limits-of-robert-muellers-new-job-as-special-counsel/

Extract: "Q. What are a special counsel's powers?

A. Under Justice Department regulations, a special counsel has all the authority of a U.S. attorney, including the ability to initiate investigations, subpoena records and bring criminal charges. One difference, however: Special counsels get to choose whether they inform the Justice Department what they're up to. Before taking "significant" actions, however, the special counsel must notify the attorney general.

Q. Will the results of the investigation become public?

A. Not necessarily. When a special counsel closes shop, he or she must give the attorney general a confidential report explaining the decision to bring charges or drop the matter. The attorney general would have to notify Congress of the conclusion, but can decide whether to make the special counsel's report public."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #637 on: June 26, 2017, 03:20:44 PM »
Trump is now blaming Obama for this collusion because Obama did not stop Putin:

"Sean Hannity just gave away that proof of collusion between Donald Trump and Russia is about to surface"

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/fox-news-just-gave-away-expects-donald-trump-russia-collusion-news-break-soon/3629/

Extract: "Hannity flat out stated that if the Trump campaign asked Russia to release the emails it hacked and stole from the Democratic Party, then the whole thing was some kind of patriotic act, and not collusion.


In other words, Hannity is softening up his own audience for when the proof surfaces that the Trump campaign and Russia did collude on the stolen emails. Whether he’s been given the heads-up by Trump, or by the Russians, or by someone in the media, he knows that the proof is about to surface. It’s the same reason Trump is suddenly admitting Russia hacked the election, and trying to spin it into an Obama scandal. It’s also the same reason Russia is quickly taking Sergey Kislyak off the table: it wants him to no longer be the Russian Ambassador when the proof surfaces that he engineered the collusion."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #638 on: June 27, 2017, 10:16:52 AM »
Is it true that there is this shift going on where people start to suggest (in the media) that maybe it's time to cut down on the Russia-Russia-Russia? This guy from Secular Talk says it's the Left's Benghazi.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #639 on: June 27, 2017, 11:57:10 AM »
If you look back at the articles and videos of 1973....people were growing weary of Watergate....little did they know there was another 14+ months of Watergate ahead of them.  That's the interesting thing about history:  Some people learn from it....and some people don't.  Donnie is clearly one of those that didn't learn.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 02:18:12 PM by Buddy »
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #640 on: June 27, 2017, 02:02:06 PM »
People must be getting tired of it, just like they are tired of hearing about climate change. That doesn't mean we should give up and let Climate Change / Russia  run us over.

The fact is that is clear that Russia interfered with the US election to a level that has never seen before and might have in fact tipped the election in the way it did.  Those are facts. Did Trump colluded with Russia?  Maybe, Maybe not. Even if he did he probably hid it very well. Did Trump's accomplices colluded with Russia? All the evidence seems to point out that yes, there was and there still is collusion with Russia.


Why this matters?  Because Russia and other countries are now heavily influencing policy in the US. This is good for Russia who gains influence, good for Trump and accomplices who enrich themselves but very bad for most American people. I truly hope the intelligence agencies can find actionable evidence, but I know that is highly unlikely. Trump is accomplished criminal who has always known how to avoid leaving evidence of his crimes. 

I've always believe that the ball is in the hands of the GOP. If they let Putin dictate American policy through Trump, then it is the end of the US as we know it.  From now on foreign governments will  establish back channels with the next presidents, that is now acceptable. From now on foreign governments can feel free to interfere with American elections. It has been established as an acceptable practice. The GOP has the power to stop this corruption, but they  have fallen for it themselves. It seems unlikely they will stop it.
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #641 on: June 27, 2017, 03:13:31 PM »
If you look back at the articles and videos of 1973....people were growing weary of Watergate....little did they know there was another 14+ months of Watergate ahead of them.  That's the interesting thing about history:  Some people learn from it....and some people don't.  Donnie is clearly one of those that didn't learn.
For many of us Watergate isn't history, it was the evening news. What's different about Watergate and Russiagate is that Watergate grew very slowly from an afterthought on the second page into a national news item that was on everyone's lips. Russiagate started with a huge bang, but is dying to a whimper.
The Republicans tried for a repeat by undercutting Bill Clinton's presidency with spurious charges that changed focus every few months for years. The public's reaction was to give Bill a second term which amazed and infuriated the Republicans.
If you keep pushing this you will end up with the public seeing Trump as the victim, and awarding him a second term. - that is what history shows.

We do know a few facts:
1) The NSA tracks and records everyone's phone calls and emails.
2) The NSA isn't offering up any recordings.

We all remember Vicky Neuman's famous phone call when she said "Fuck the Eu", it didn't take long to release the call, and no one ever denied that the call had been made. That's all the NSA would have to do to end the whole debate, and I have no doubt that this is exactly what the NSA would do if such a call had been made.

Remember when Feinstein stopped Wolf in his tracks by saying she'd just returned from a meeting with the CIA, and they had no evidence of collusion? That's when you should have moved on to the next talking point.

There are so many angles to attack Trump on, and this is probably the only one that has no legs. By continuing this particular attack you may force another 4 years of Trump on us, and I'm very unhappy about that possibility. TPTB seem far more interested in fomenting a war between Russia and the US than in getting rid of Trump. I'd much prefer seeing the end of Trump, peaceful relations with Russia, and a winning Democratic campaign in 2018 & 2020.

Terry

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #642 on: June 27, 2017, 03:21:42 PM »
I've always believe that the ball is in the hands of the GOP. If they let Putin dictate American policy through Trump, then it is the end of the US as we know it.  From now on foreign governments will  establish back channels with the next presidents, that is now acceptable. From now on foreign governments can feel free to interfere with American elections. It has been established as an acceptable practice. The GOP has the power to stop this corruption, but they  have fallen for it themselves. It seems unlikely they will stop it.

While it is critical to keep working to hold the GOP accountable, I agree that it is unlikely that the GOP will improve their behavior regarding their promotion of kleptocracy in the US (& by extension to the world) and their denial of climate change.  As Trump would say: "Sad".
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #643 on: June 27, 2017, 04:18:43 PM »
Anyone familiar with the term "wag the dog" will be paying attention over the coming days and weeks.

Last night the White House issued a brief statement indicating Syria was preparing for a chemical weapons attack.  US Central Command, the locus of US military leadership and strategy, was asked for comment and responded that they had "no idea" what the White House was talking about.

We will likely see offensive action against Syria in the coming days, which will only complicate an already strained situation on the ground and create massive risks given the involvement directly or via proxy of Russia and Iran in the regional conflicts.

Some here think Trump and his team are peacemakers.  On the contrary, their actions and rhetoric are inflaming volatile situations in the Middle East, and it will only worsen with time.  Trump is sending additional troops to Afghanistan, and some in the administration are pushing for regime change in Iran.  Trump's careless and ignorant statements regarding Qatar have deepened tensions among Gulf State nations including Saudi Arabia.

Military action and footage of exploding bombs on foreign soil can do wonders for a president's approval, and provide a convenient distraction from troubles and scandals at home.

Watch the dog, and watch it get wagged.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #644 on: June 27, 2017, 04:48:59 PM »
Is it true that there is this shift going on where people start to suggest (in the media) that maybe it's time to cut down on the Russia-Russia-Russia? This guy from Secular Talk says it's the Left's Benghazi.

Dem Reps Are Realizing Voters Dislike Their Russía Frenzy
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Sorry to disappoint you, but the Russia story is not fading away anytime soon.  There is conclusive evidence that Russia interfered in the 2016 US election.  Even Donald Trump and his state media apparatus at Fox are now acknowledging the intervention, but are of course blaming Obama and the Dems.  The remaining questions are of course the extent of collusion between Trump, his team, and Russian government officials.  This is precisely the subject of the ongoing investigations, and now in the domain of the recently appointed Special Counsel Mueller.  Let us not prejudge outcomes:  there may be findings of collusion, or there may be no findings.  Mueller is also looking at obstruction of justice and potential financial crimes.  So the "Russia story" will continue on, much to the dismay of the Putin Admiration Society here.

The other ongoing implication of the Russian intervention in 2016 is that the threat of interference remains for the 2018, 2020, and other elections.  All indications and reporting are that Donald Trump and his team are doing nothing about this, which is a dire risk to American sovereignty. 

The suggestion of parallels with Benghazi is an interesting choice.  Apples and oranges in terms of the specific situations and events.  But, the ongoing Benghazi investigations led to the discovery of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.  Which of course became a central issue in the presidential campaign and was a factor in her Electoral College defeat in the General Election.  Republicans, in fact, were richly rewarded from their investments in the Benghazi affair. 

pileus

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #645 on: June 27, 2017, 05:31:04 PM »
Readers here would do well to take the dezinformatsiya being posted by active members of the Putin Admiration society with a large grain of humanely and sustainably harvested sea salt.

Democratic enthusiasm and engagement, especially among the Evil Corporate Faction, is through the roof and bodes well for 2018 (assuming there are still open elections and we have not completely submitted to Russian control by then).  And all indications are that Trump will be a one term president, if not a less than one termer depending on the outcome of Special Counsel Mueller's work.

MSNBC Is Growing 3 Times Faster Than Fox News As Americans Wake Up And Take Their Country Back

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/06/26/msnbc-growing-3-times-faster-fox-news-americans-wake-country.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

As the American people get more engaged and look for factual news and information, they are increasingly turning to MSNBC as the Rachel Maddow led network is growing three times faster in total viewers than Fox News in primetime.

Here are the numbers via a statement from MSNBC to PoliticusUSA, “In weekday prime, MSNBC beat CNN in total viewers for the 5th straight quarter and ranked #2 among all cable networks. MSNBC prime finished the quarter with 2.1 million viewers, a record for MSNBC and besting CNN’s highest quarter ever -1.9 million viewers in 4Q08. This is MSNBC’s highest cable news universe share ever and the 1st time it delivered more than 2 million viewers. MSNBC has added more viewers in weekday prime than any other cable network in the past year – 1 million, nearly tripling the #2 network in growth – FOX News.”

This could be called a Trump Effect. As the President has cozied up to Fox News while his administration is mired in the Russia scandal, MSNBC has delivered news based coverage with a primetime lineup that has focused on the many scandals of the current White House. The MSNBC growth can also be viewed as part of the public backlash against the Trump administration. Trump’s victory energized a part of the country that had been disengaged since President Obama won reelection in 2012.
-------------
What we learned from the Virginia primary

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/14/virginia-primary-gillespie-northam-239530

The number of ballots cast stunned operatives on both sides: Democratic turnout skyrocketed, reaching nearly 170 percent more than the last time there was a contested primary in 2009.
--
One defining characteristic of the Trump era has been the consistently surprising energy from Democrats eager to oppose him. That’s true among activists and also in states that have held elections this year. The high Democratic turnout on Tuesday continued a trend that was highlighted last week in New Jersey — where the party primary attracted higher-than-expected turnout even though the race wasn’t competitive.

Tuesday’s vote attracted well over a half-million Democratic votes, blowing past the party’s last competitive primary in Virginia, when 320,000 Democratic voters showed up.
----------------
The graphic below shows Democratic Party performance vs expectations in the recent special elections.  Average overperformance is 8%, which suggests up to 80 Republican held seats may be in play for the 2018 midterms.



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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #646 on: June 27, 2017, 06:13:54 PM »
...

The suggestion of parallels with Benghazi is an interesting choice.  Apples and oranges in terms of the specific situations and events.  But, the ongoing Benghazi investigations led to the discovery of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server.  Which of course became a central issue in the presidential campaign and was a factor in her Electoral College defeat in the General Election.  Republicans, in fact, were richly rewarded from their investments in the Benghazi affair.
Yes, very interesting. Quoting the Benghazi nothingburger has the strong odor of a R talking point. A meme perhaps bred at Fox News or Breitbart or why not in a Russian infowar lab, or (sorry I cant help this) a D political suicide commando. :-)

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #647 on: June 28, 2017, 01:31:14 AM »
It looks like even if Pence were to pardon Trump, Trump could still go to prison for violation of state laws:

The linked Palmer Report article is entitled: "Report: member of Donald Trump’s inner circle says Trump is going to prison"

http://www.palmerreport.com/politics/report-donald-trump-is-going-to-prison/3639/

Extract: "In addition to whatever crimes he may have committed in the name of colluding with Russia to rig the election, Donald Trump has also now committed obstruction of justice and witness tampering in broad daylight – and this comes even as his shady finances are being picked apart by investigators. Now comes inside word that even one of Trump’s own close associates believes Trump will end up in prison when it’s all said and done."
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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #648 on: June 28, 2017, 02:29:05 AM »
I think it's a fair assertion that the MEDIA are hyper-focusing on Russiagate.

I see no evidence that *Democrats* on the whole are excessively focused on it.

We plainly won't see the evidence that Mueller has gathered until indictments are issued.  Until then, it's absurdly premature to claim that there's "no evidence."  That kind of assertion comes from Fox News, not a rational observer.

Meanwhile, the actions of Democrats right now are hyper-focused on derailing the Senate bill to repeal ObamaCare, gut Medicaid, and transfer many billions to the wealthiest.

No, the Democratic leadership is not just as bad as the Republicans.  In fact, they seem to be doing pretty well.

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #649 on: June 28, 2017, 10:48:52 AM »
Russiagate's evidentiary trail so far:

No evidence of Russian 'intervention'.
No evidence of Trump 'collusion'.
No evidence of Trump 'obstruction'.

No actual evidence whatsoever has been presented anywhere, the entire imbroglio is based on hearsay, anonymous sources and politically charged polemics.

This still looks to me like neocon driven domestic regime change to supplant a president who initially challenged the US war industry focus on crushing all potential geopolitical competitors, primarily Russia and China.

McCarthyism for the 21st C.

And I'm still appalled that otherwise intelligent people here are capable of being manipulated so blatantly into supporting militarised propaganda against nuclear armed Russia just because a section of your oligarchy makes a literal killing from war!

Your entire political process is a red/blue oligarchic scam while the world is burning up and you're in a lather about Russkies under the bed!?