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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1550 on: October 31, 2017, 08:44:03 PM »
that would be nice  ;)

https://www.blick.ch/news/ausland/donald-trump-news-ticker-id6132479.html


The article doesn't seem to translate, at least in chrome with ad-buster.
I get a black video. It's about the meanwhile viral video I linked on last page here: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg132713.html#msg132713

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1551 on: October 31, 2017, 09:53:48 PM »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1552 on: October 31, 2017, 10:45:26 PM »
The GOP senators see no need to shield Mueller before he is fired by Trump (of course after he is fired they can just say: "Who would have thought?"):

Title: "Senate Republicans in no rush to shield Mueller from Trump"

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/31/mueller-congress-republicans-trump-244343

Extract: "GOP senators argue the president isn’t about to fire the special counsel, so bills to protect him aren’t needed just yet."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1553 on: October 31, 2017, 11:36:16 PM »
Reports out that Mueller has filed first charges, likely Manafort.  EVERYTHING you saw from Trump, Fox, the GOP, and their sycophants this week about Clinton and Russia was pure deflection and propaganda, right from the Kremlin playbook.

Saturday Night Massacre II likely coming.  The AG for the Eastern District of VA "resigned" today.  You can be lock solid sure this is the first domino in the process to fire Mueller.  Trump will not risk being exposed for what he is: a criminal and a traitor.


And yet Tony Podesta quits the company he and brother John founded, rather suddenly. The Podesta brothers did have some tenuous connection to Hillary Rodham, didn't they?


That "Kremlin playbook" must be one hell of a tome to have covered such unexpected contingencies.
Terry


BTW
The Intercept, you may remember it as the voice of Snowden, has a small blurb confirming that the Saudis were advising the US of the attack against Damascus back in 2013, as well as providing 120 tons of explosives and weapons to "Light up Damascus".


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4116277-NSA-Slide-on-Saudi-Ordered-Attack-by-Syrian.html


Amazing how difficult google has become, for some.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1554 on: November 01, 2017, 03:08:38 AM »
Reports out that Mueller has filed first charges, likely Manafort.  EVERYTHING you saw from Trump, Fox, the GOP, and their sycophants this week about Clinton and Russia was pure deflection and propaganda, right from the Kremlin playbook.
... plus the Petersburg troll factory:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/putins-pro-trump-trolls-just-targeted-hillary-clinton-and-robert-mueller/
Quote
Russian bots and trolls on Twitter have stayed plenty busy lately. In the days before charges against three former Trump campaign officials were unsealed on Monday, Russian influencers tracked by the Hamilton 68 dashboard were pushing stories on Twitter about “collusion” between Russia and Hillary Clinton [...]

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1555 on: November 01, 2017, 04:24:32 AM »
Wait, what? Russians undermine Trump right after they elect him ?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/31/facebook-twitter-post-election-russian-meddling-sought-to-undermine-trump-244380

So we are to believe that Russia was for Trump before Russia was against him. Make up your mind, Russia.

In other news, Facebook won't commit to refusing election related foreign money, and Facebook, Twitter and Google do not support Honest Ads Act. Who can blame them, they might wind up having to disclose information about every ad, whether political or not.

sidd

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1556 on: November 01, 2017, 07:39:45 AM »
Papadoulous contacts to russia go thru a london academic identified as Joseph Mifsud fom Malta and thence thru Ivan Timofeev who is program director at a think tank called the Russian International Affairs Council, founded in 2010 by various agencies of the Russian government.

Mifsud denies a) knowing anything about clinton dirty emails, b) speaking russian, c) anything about  a woman represented as Putin's niece.

Timofeev had skype (heeheehee, straight to NSA and Mueller) conversations with Papadoulous which presumably Mueller has copies of ...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-joseph-mifsud-professor-russia-investigation-20171031-story.html

http://www.blogpvan.com/main/russias-man-who-connected-trump-aide-to-putins-niece/

Now that second link mentions that Mifsud and Timofeev participated in a meet at the Valdai forum. Valdai actually has good speakers, and I have linked to them before. They are certainly a window into Russian thought (sorta but not quite like the Wall Street Journal for USA or the Economist for the UK), and that lends some more weight to Timofeev connection to Russian state.

I have a feeling that Timofeev is under some close interrogation with some uncomfortable questions. The first one I would have for him, if i were in the FSB, is "You moron, why did you use Skype to lure a nobody from the Trump campaign? "

What a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive.

sidd
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 08:02:20 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1557 on: November 01, 2017, 08:02:04 AM »
Wait, what? Russians undermine Trump right after they elect him ?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/31/facebook-twitter-post-election-russian-meddling-sought-to-undermine-trump-244380

So we are to believe that Russia was for Trump before Russia was against him. Make up your mind, Russia.

Putin thinks differently than you and me.
From the politico link :
Quote
“Their goal is to create confusion and dissent. The target is the U.S. and NATO, not any particular candidate. They just want chaos," Lewis said.

Since Trump is already chosen, it makes sense for Russia to start create dissent. Set up people against each other. That's also why Russia supported the Black Lives Matter movement, and all the independence movements like Brexit, and Catalonia, and Scotland, and even secession of Texas.

Meanwhile, in the real world, one month late, but the US Treasury finally enacted the new sanctions against Russia that was passed with veto-proof margins through Congress :

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USTREAS/bulletins/1c164e1
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1558 on: November 01, 2017, 08:04:07 AM »
Sorry Rob, I modified my earlier comment while you were posting, with some more thoughts about the Papadoulous affair.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1559 on: November 01, 2017, 08:09:11 AM »
That's OK sidd. My comment was not about Papadopoulos.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1560 on: November 01, 2017, 12:47:01 PM »
Will be interesting to see who is indicted next:  Clovis...Lewendowski...?

With Papadpolous....we already know that the Trump campaign already knew...weeks BEFORE Trumps "Wikileaks speech" that the Trump campaign KNEW that the Russians had Clintons files.

We also now know that the Trump campaign had Clintons files BEFORE the Trump admin said they had NO KNOWLEDGE of contacts with Russians.

Donnie's administration has dug a hole they can NOT get out of without help from Congressional members.  Donnie understands this....and he understands that he needs to keep his poll numbers from dipping into the mid 20's range.....the impeachment range. 😬
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 02:22:51 PM by Buddy »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1561 on: November 01, 2017, 02:20:36 PM »
Wait, what? Russians undermine Trump right after they elect him ?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/31/facebook-twitter-post-election-russian-meddling-sought-to-undermine-trump-244380

So we are to believe that Russia was for Trump before Russia was against him. Make up your mind, Russia.

In other news, Facebook won't commit to refusing election related foreign money, and Facebook, Twitter and Google do not support Honest Ads Act. Who can blame them, they might wind up having to disclose information about every ad, whether political or not.

sidd

I don't think there's anything inconsistent about Russia altering strategies after the election.  As quoted in the article:
Quote
“Their goal is to create confusion and dissent. The target is the U.S. and NATO, not any particular candidate. They just want chaos," Lewis said. "It went from being a grudge match against Clinton to what they thought was a priceless opportunity to inflict harm."

Creating discord and divisions is part of a long-range strategy to reduce US ability to take vigorous actions on the world stage.     Getting Trump elected was short-term strategy.       

It seems clear to me that we need transparency in all commercial advertising.  If someone pays to put information before the public (true, false, or biased) the people should have a right to know who paid.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1562 on: November 01, 2017, 03:46:12 PM »
It appears clear that Mueller's team (significantly including Andrew Weissmann) intend to treat Russiagate as a Mob investigation; which in my opinion is exactly as it should be because Team Trump has been/is operating like the Mob:

Title: "Andrew Weissmann, Mueller’s Legal Pit Bull"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/andrew-weissmann-mueller.html

Extract: "Significantly, Mr. Weissmann is an expert in converting defendants into collaborators — with either tactical brilliance or overzealousness, depending on one’s perspective.

It is not clear if President Trump and his charges fear Mr. Weissmann as they gird for the slog ahead. It is quite clear, former colleagues and opponents say, that they should."
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1563 on: November 01, 2017, 05:23:29 PM »
It appears clear that Mueller's team (significantly including Andrew Weissmann) intend to treat Russiagate as a Mob investigation; which in my opinion is exactly as it should be because Team Trump has been/is operating like the Mob:

Title: "Andrew Weissmann, Mueller’s Legal Pit Bull"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/andrew-weissmann-mueller.html

Extract: "Significantly, Mr. Weissmann is an expert in converting defendants into collaborators — with either tactical brilliance or overzealousness, depending on one’s perspective.

It is not clear if President Trump and his charges fear Mr. Weissmann as they gird for the slog ahead. It is quite clear, former colleagues and opponents say, that they should."


Is this a quest for truth and justice, or a prosecutor striving for a win at all costs?


If the late, but not lamented Roy Cohn was available, would we want him involved in this case?


Just curious about what the goals are, and how far we're willing to go for a conviction.
Terry

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1564 on: November 01, 2017, 05:25:53 PM »
Some of you may not know that Mueller has a hefty file on Trump and his corrupt real estate dealings (I think it included "corrupt foreign practice") from a prior investigation in New York City. They decided not to prosecute (I couldn't find the original material but remember it clearly, found lots else, my usual favorite New Yorker: they break news, research and source their material, and don't say if they don't know). But a mob investigation is exactly right, and Mueller knows exactly where the bodies are buried. Manafort might be turned over the NY state's Attorney General Schneiderman (a hero in these parts); Trump can't pardon that. It would be a possible 35 year sentence and his wife would be vulnerable. That birdie will sing!

Meanwhile, I am delighted to report that there is some support for Papadopoulos being big trouble for Jeff Sessions, who is a personal favorite (with heavy competition) for top slimeball in this administration. The voices in his head tell him that climate science is an insult to our creator because it steps on said "creator's" toes. George Papadopoulos’s Plea Deal Is Very, Very Bad News for Attorney General Jeff Sessions https://theintercept.com/2017/10/30/jeff-sessions-indictment-bad-news-for-attorney-general/

Quote
That’s because Sessions has repeatedly testified to the Senate that he knows nothing about any collusion with the Russians. (Though in his most recent appearance, he categorized that narrowly by saying he did not “conspire with Russia or an agent of the Russian government to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election.”)

Though to me that looks a bit thin; Mueller is keeping his cards close, so noone knows how far he wants to go. But my initial point about the file on Trump makes me think M is determined to provide an ironclad case going straight to the top, as any true patriot would do.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1565 on: November 01, 2017, 05:28:32 PM »
TerryM, I assume you know that Roy Cohn was one of Trump's earlier mentors? He was trained up early by mom and pop and also Roger Stone to take and hurt and avoid self-reflection about the moral consequences of lies and evil.

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1566 on: November 01, 2017, 06:02:54 PM »
TerryM, I assume you know that Roy Cohn was one of Trump's earlier mentors? He was trained up early by mom and pop and also Roger Stone to take and hurt and avoid self-reflection about the moral consequences of lies and evil.
Susan


Yes, I was aware of that connection.


My question was aimed at determining just how important a conviction is.
Cohn was undoubtedly a "bulldog" of a prosecutor, but was known to play fast and loose with the niceties of law. Should we pursue a path that will probably lead to conviction, even if it will be seen as an example of prosecutorial overreach or misconduct by coming generations?


If it's a political win we seek, then is everything is fair in love and politics?
If the legal president is important, then every avenue of defense needs to be demonstrably open. Tactics that have been used against Gotti, ie "turning" witnesses, might be inappropriate when an elected official is the defendant.


The smears against the Clintons crippled his presidency, but I don't recall witnesses testifying with the threat of indeterminate sentencing hanging over their heads. This was how the LAPD got so many convictions in cases where it was later proven that the cops had made the whole thing up.


I don't like Trump, and despise what his presidency has become.
I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution. Winning at any cost is too dear a price to pay.


Terry

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1567 on: November 01, 2017, 06:39:01 PM »
I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution. Winning at any cost is too dear a price to pay.

And just what tactics would those be? You mean interviewing witnesses? Looking through bank records? Reading Trump's Twitter feed?

Every prosecutor wants convictions, of course. But more than that, I think Mueller and his team want the truth, whatever that may be. I see absolutely no evidence of political overreach in the investigation. What I *do* see is a group of real and patriotic Americans determined to do their part to ensure hostile foreign entities aren't allowed to short circuit and subvert our democratic processes in the future.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1568 on: November 01, 2017, 06:50:10 PM »
Just a note that the pro-Putin fans have infected many sites on the internet.  Vladi's PAID FRIENDS will say anything to decrease the pressure on Trump during the investigation.  If you think it is just "bots" to worry about....you are sorely mistaken.

Fortunately.....some of them are fairly easy to spot.  They are the ones that make NO SENSE....promote Russia and Putin endlessly.....and want the RussiaGate investigation shut down ASAP.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm😏
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1569 on: November 01, 2017, 07:34:13 PM »

I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution. Winning at any cost is too dear a price to pay.


Terry

This is a baffling comment.  Mueller's team has been quietly investigating, with virtually no leaks to the press.  The only visible products so far are two indictments and a statement about the one guilty plea.  Unless you can point to defects in these three visible products, there's no evidence of poor practice by Mueller's team.

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1570 on: November 01, 2017, 07:34:37 PM »
Facebook has yielded to pressure from US lawmakers to release representative ads bought by Russian operatives:

Title: "Russian ads, now publicly released, show sophistication of influence campaign"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/russian-ads-now-publicly-released-show-sophistication-of-influence-campaign/2017/11/01/d26aead2-bf1b-11e7-8444-a0d4f04b89eb_story.html?utm_term=.d7f71afea4b8

Extract: "Lawmakers on Wednesday publicly shared several of the 3,000 Facebook ads bought by Russian operatives as they sought to shape American political conversation during the 2016 presidential election and its aftermath by inflaming some of the nation’s deepest social divides.

The ads — some of which directly praise Republican Donald Trump or denigrate his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton — made visceral appeals to voters upset about illegal immigration, the declining economic fortunes of coal miners or the rising prominence of Muslims in some U.S. communities.

Some ads also explicitly called for people to attend political rallies amid a campaign season that already was among the most polarizing in recent U.S. history."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1571 on: November 01, 2017, 07:40:53 PM »
I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution.

Terry,

I find myself siding with Jim Pettit's and SteveMDFP's comments; in that I have seen no indication of overreach by the prosecution, as Mueller's team seems to me to be tough but fair.

Best,
ASLR
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 08:21:05 PM by AbruptSLR »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1572 on: November 01, 2017, 08:12:19 PM »
I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution. Winning at any cost is too dear a price to pay.

And just what tactics would those be? You mean interviewing witnesses? Looking through bank records? Reading Trump's Twitter feed?

Every prosecutor wants convictions, of course. But more than that, I think Mueller and his team want the truth, whatever that may be. I see absolutely no evidence of political overreach in the investigation. What I *do* see is a group of real and patriotic Americans determined to do their part to ensure hostile foreign entities aren't allowed to short circuit and subvert our democratic processes in the future.


I sincerely hope that your trust is well placed.
My comments were based on the guilty plea that Papadopoulos signed. If these techniques were used to squeeze testimony out of a witness in a gang land trial I'd be asking the prosecution to find a different witness, were I the judge.
I'm not a judge, much to the relief of many. :)


What do you think an appropriate punishment would be for those guilty of subverting the democratic processes of a sovereign nation?
Should international law be invoked?
Would UN Sanctions be appropriate?
How far back should we go as far as a statute of limitation?


Does the 1st amendment apply everywhere, or is it restricted to Americans on American soil?
Do I, as a Canadian, in Canada have the freedom to comment on American Politics?
Do you, as an American, have the right to consult me about American Politics?
If you were volunteering or being paid by the DNC, would you have the right to ask a foreign national about Candidate Trump's business dealings in his country?
Would you have the right to offer the foreigner payment for his time, or insight?


These are some pretty basic questions that will be answered, and precedents will be made.
I hope precedents, possibly made in the heat of the moment, won't prove awkward later.


Terry - A real and patriotic Canadian

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1573 on: November 01, 2017, 08:44:55 PM »
I don't like the tactics evidenced so far by the prosecution.

Terry,

I find myself siding with Jim Pettit's and SteveMDFP's comments; in that I have seen no indication of over-reach by the prosecution, as Mueller's team seems to me to be tough but fair.

Best,
ASLR


ASLR
Have you read the guilty plea signed by Papadopoulos, with all the stipulations? I believe I linked to it above, as it was printed in full by ZeroHedge.
I hope I'm reading more into it than is there.


I don't hold the American Justice System is very high regard. My earliest run in with them was when my saintly mother bribed a local bailiff with a box of fresh navel oranges, and my suspended drivers licence was miraculously restored. It was just a symbolic bribe, he wouldn't want it said that he'd subverted justice without getting paid. ::)


Also my kid brother, not being capable of honest employment, became a California Lawyer.


Best
Terry

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1574 on: November 01, 2017, 09:11:56 PM »
I sincerely hope that your trust is well placed.

The linked article indicates to me that Papadopoulos is most likely being treated better than he deserves in exchange for his cooperation to catch bigger fish:

Title: "Prosecutors Say George Papadopoulos Plea a ‘Small Part’ of Mueller Russian Probe"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prosecutors-say-george-papadopoulos-plea-small-part-mueller-russian-probe-n816056

Extract: "Initially charged with making false statements and deleting records from his social media, Papadopoulos pleaded guilty only to lying in a sign of the government's willingness to cut him a break for his continued cooperation with the larger investigation.

Prosecutors said during the plea hearing that they shared "substantial information" with Papadopoulos that "provided a road map of sorts" to the ongoing investigation in an attempt to "jog his memory" as he cooperated.

It's not clear what information Papadopoulos may have provided that is not in court papers, but Trump and his allies reacted to the surprise news of his plea deal by portraying him as a campaign peon."
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1575 on: November 01, 2017, 10:04:20 PM »
Sam Nunberg....former Trump campaign worker...said "Trump is at 33% in Gallup.  You can't get any lower.  He's f$$$ed."

Sam....you've got the last part of that right...but he can and WILL go lower next year.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1576 on: November 01, 2017, 10:20:43 PM »
I sincerely hope that your trust is well placed.

The linked article indicates to me that Papadopoulos is most likely being treated better than he deserves in exchange for his cooperation to catch bigger fish:

Title: "Prosecutors Say George Papadopoulos Plea a ‘Small Part’ of Mueller Russian Probe"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prosecutors-say-george-papadopoulos-plea-small-part-mueller-russian-probe-n816056

Extract: "Initially charged with making false statements and deleting records from his social media, Papadopoulos pleaded guilty only to lying in a sign of the government's willingness to cut him a break for his continued cooperation with the larger investigation.

Prosecutors said during the plea hearing that they shared "substantial information" with Papadopoulos that "provided a road map of sorts" to the ongoing investigation in an attempt to "jog his memory" as he cooperated.

It's not clear what information Papadopoulos may have provided that is not in court papers, but Trump and his allies reacted to the surprise news of his plea deal by portraying him as a campaign peon."


ASLR
Again
Have you read the guilty plea that Papadopoulos signed, with the stipulations?


Best
Terry


PS
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-01/stockman-slams-muellers-mugging-america-case-baby-george-papadopoulos


Covers the Papadopoulos event to some extent, but not the, I believe, onerous conditions of the plea agreement.
Perhaps this is the way "justice" is now conducted in America. Perhaps this is simply BAU in American court systems. If so, I'm very glad to be out of their grasp.


magnamentis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1577 on: November 01, 2017, 11:00:38 PM »
that would be nice  ;)

https://www.blick.ch/news/ausland/donald-trump-news-ticker-id6132479.html


The article doesn't seem to translate, at least in chrome with ad-buster.


Has anyone read the wiki on Papadopoulos? He apparently was writing anti-Russian articles in right wing Israeli publications prior to his involvement with Ben Carson's, or Trump's campaigns & only recently turned 30.
Who is this guy?


Terry

it's the video and that needs no translation, the article is irrelevant yellow press BS but the video (has to be watched to the end) is fun.

EDIT: they have altered the page, it's a newspaper, it's shortlived yellow press, not really worth to dig deeper but fortunately someone posted another link ;)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 11:26:06 PM by magnamentis »

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1578 on: November 01, 2017, 11:18:18 PM »
Have you read the guilty plea that Papadopoulos signed, with the stipulations?

...

PS
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-01/stockman-slams-muellers-mugging-america-case-baby-george-papadopoulos

I read as much of the linked zerohedge article as I could stomach, and I was not impressed.
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1579 on: November 01, 2017, 11:38:29 PM »
With Trump's poll number's dropping, Bannon is encouraging Trump to "take off the gloves with Robert Mueller":

Title: "“You Can’t Go Any Lower”: Inside the West Wing, Trump Is Apoplectic as Allies Fear Impeachment"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/the-west-wing-trump-is-apoplectic-as-allies-fear-impeachment

Extract: "After Monday’s indictments, the president blamed Jared Kushner in a call to Steve Bannon, while others are urging him to take off the gloves with Robert Mueller.

In a series of phone calls with Trump on Monday and Tuesday, Bannon told the president to shake up the legal team by installing an aggressive lawyer above Cobb, according to two sources briefed on the call. Bannon has also discussed ways to pressure Congress to defund Mueller’s investigation or limit its scope. “Mueller shouldn’t be allowed to be a clean shot on goal,” a Bannon confidant told me. “He must be contested and checked. Right now he has unchecked power.”

Bannon’s sense of urgency is being fueled by his belief that Trump’s hold on power is slipping. The collapse of Obamacare repeal, and the dimming chances that tax reform will pass soon—many Trump allies are deeply pessimistic about its prospects—have created the political climate for establishment Republicans to turn on Trump. Two weeks ago, according to a source, Bannon did a spitball analysis of the Cabinet to see which members would remain loyal to Trump in the event the 25th Amendment were invoked, thereby triggering a vote to remove the president from office. Bannon recently told people he’s not sure if Trump would survive such a vote. “One thing Steve wants Trump to do is take this more seriously,” the Bannon confidant told me. “Stop joking around. Stop tweeting.”"
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1580 on: November 02, 2017, 01:52:13 AM »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1581 on: November 02, 2017, 02:59:34 AM »
I read as much of the linked zerohedge article as I could stomach, and I was not impressed.

+1
I made it to this sentence :
Quote
So here's how this noxious act of bullying by Robert Mueller's Federally-deputized thugs...

zerohedge seems to be some conspiracy site venting (mostly pro-Russian) propaganda.
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1582 on: November 02, 2017, 07:40:10 AM »
ASLR


I've reread both of the governments documents and have modified my opinion to a large extent. The first 9 sections of the 18th document, up until section F, concerning FOIA requests appear to ~ boilerplate. As I'm sure you've noted, this particular section was hand modified, and all parties initialed their agreement to only have the section apply until the special prosecutor's investigation had ended.
The second paragraph of the 12th section, where Papadopoulos agrees that the Government needs only to meet the very low standard of "preponderance of evidence" if they claim a breach of contract, was where I thought they were putting their screws to the kid. I'm still a little queasy about these tactics, but it could certainly be characterized as "very zealous prosecution"
rather than "prosecutorial overreach".


Thanks for the heads up!
Terry


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1583 on: November 02, 2017, 07:43:59 AM »
Papadopoulos was friends with Millian who leaked (sorry!) the pee story to Steele. Both these guys were peddling russia narratives, but to different parties. Amazing.

From your link :
Quote
Millian, identified in different portions of the dossier as “Source D” and “Source E,” is described as a “close associate of Trump.”

So which source was Millian ? "D" or "E" ?
Or did Steele, or the WP, mix up the two ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1584 on: November 02, 2017, 07:47:45 AM »
The first 9 sections of the 18th document, up until section F..

You lost me right there. References please...
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sidd

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1585 on: November 02, 2017, 07:55:30 AM »
i think source D. WSJ and WaPo identify him as D, which is also in the headline of the article.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1586 on: November 02, 2017, 08:25:00 AM »
I'ts difficult to believe that those who have opined that Papadopoulos was given a fair shake haven't even read the text of the agreement.
I've told you before that I wouldn't bring you any more rocks.


Go Away
Terry

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1587 on: November 02, 2017, 01:04:24 PM »
zerohedge seems to be some conspiracy site venting (mostly pro-Russian) propaganda.

Yeah, that breathless article is full of debunked anti-Mueller/Clinton, Pro-Putin/Trump conspiracy theory nonsense: Russia didn't invade the Ukraine, Clinton and the DNC paid $10 million for the Steele dossier (actual cost: $168,000), Mueller is a Deep State stooge. And so on. At this stage, zerohedge has all the credibility of Alex Jones or Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Which is to say: absolutely none.

Neven

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1588 on: November 02, 2017, 01:28:34 PM »
I agree that linking to zerohedge as a source weakens your arguments, Terry. I can't take an anonymous author with 'Tyler Durden' as a pseudonym serious (Fight Club was an interesting movie, but come on).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1589 on: November 02, 2017, 04:34:06 PM »
zerohedge seems to be some conspiracy site venting (mostly pro-Russian) propaganda.

Yeah, that breathless article is full of debunked anti-Mueller/Clinton, Pro-Putin/Trump conspiracy theory nonsense: Russia didn't invade the Ukraine, Clinton and the DNC paid $10 million for the Steele dossier (actual cost: $168,000), Mueller is a Deep State stooge. And so on. At this stage, zerohedge has all the credibility of Alex Jones or Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Which is to say: absolutely none.
In the threads which discuss the cryosphere, climate change et al, most posts seem to try and get to the facts by, for example, digging for and quoting original data sources.
On these threads to do with politics, contributors seem often, too often, to rely on some really flaky sources to support their ideological position. Is it because when politics become involved reason and the use of one's critical faculties is discarded in favour of emotion?
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Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1590 on: November 02, 2017, 04:42:36 PM »
Clovis is just the next step along the yellow brick road that leads to Oz (Trump).  As Mueller continues to work his way up the chain... plausible deniability becomes tougher and tougher.

Eventually.....Donnie will be saying he hardly knew Jared. 🤥 "I barely remember going to his wedding." 😳😳😳

Watergate had the same human reactions.  And Nixon had many of the same actions and reactions that Donnie has now:  Blame the press....blame someone else in the administration....blame the Democrat's.  Donnie and Nixon appear to a lot alike (after watching the video clips from Watergate).  Donnie is in a WHOLE lot more trouble than Nixon though.   And that will continue to come out as the laundramat is exposed....and the collusion is exposed.....and the corruptness of the CURRENT administration is on full display.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 04:53:37 PM by Buddy »
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TerryM

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1591 on: November 02, 2017, 07:13:26 PM »
I agree that linking to zerohedge as a source weakens your arguments, Terry. I can't take an anonymous author with 'Tyler Durden' as a pseudonym serious (Fight Club was an interesting movie, but come on).
Personally I found Fight Club to be a waste of celluloid. :(


Zerohedge is, to a very large extent a news aggregator that simply cuts and pastes from other sites, with links. It's certainly easy enough to link to Reuters, BBC, or whoever did the original reporting, but it does obscure whatever groupings of sources Zerohedge offers in more complex instances.


With the very anti-Canadian, anti-Climate change Zerohedge I've had to wade through mountains of garbage to find the very rare gem that may appear, and, though I never expected others to participate in my dumpster diving expeditions, it was probably a mistake on my part to expect them to ignore the headlines and spin just to access the often legitimate story that the spin began from.


No More Zerohedge Links.


Terry




wili

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1592 on: November 02, 2017, 08:46:04 PM »
"No More Zerohedge Links."

Thanks  :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1593 on: November 02, 2017, 11:34:40 PM »
Kushner is now providing documents to the Mueller investigation and The Donald is now criticizing his son-in-law's" campaign advice.  Who knows what dirt Kushner may be providing to Mueller about his father-in-law's Russiagate actions (including possible obstruction of justice)?

Title: "Robert Mueller is reportedly zeroing in on Jared Kushner over his role in firing James Comey"

http://www.businessinsider.com/robert-mueller-russia-trump-jared-kushner-2017-11

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1594 on: November 03, 2017, 03:43:39 AM »
I'ts difficult to believe that those who have opined that Papadopoulos was given a fair shake haven't even read the text of the agreement.
I've told you before that I wouldn't bring you any more rocks.

Go Away
Terry

I am sorry but I won't "Go Away". I will just keep on asking for references if you don't provide any and fact-checking your statements if you do.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Buddy

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1595 on: November 03, 2017, 04:11:13 AM »
That pesky truth again.  It NEVER goes away ...does it? 😉
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

budmantis

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1596 on: November 03, 2017, 07:15:59 AM »
I'ts difficult to believe that those who have opined that Papadopoulos was given a fair shake haven't even read the text of the agreement.
I've told you before that I wouldn't bring you any more rocks.

Go Away
Terry

I am sorry but I won't "Go Away". I will just keep on asking for references if you don't provide any and fact-checking your statements if you do.

Rob:

I like the way you've challenged Terry and Sidd, as well as Neven. However, you are reaching the point where you're carrying the argument too far.

BudM

AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1597 on: November 03, 2017, 04:22:15 PM »
While Trump cannot pardon himself from impeachment, his pardoning of his possible partners in crime, per President Madison that in and of itself would be an impeachable offense.  So if the Democrats regain control of the House in 2018, Trump's head could be on the chopping block no matter what he does (assuming that Mueller keeps indicting key figures in Russiagate):

Title: "As Mueller Picks Up Pace, Capital Roils With Talk Of Pardons And Firing"

http://www.npr.org/2017/11/03/561551855/as-mueller-picks-up-pace-capital-roils-with-talk-of-pardons-and-firing

Extract: "So broad is the president's pardon power that he can pardon a person for past actions, even if that individual has not yet been charged. So in the current circumstance, President Trump could pardon any of the individuals under scrutiny in the Mueller Russia probe, and that would deprive the special counsel of his leverage, his ability to pressure witnesses to get at the truth. In short, a series of pardons could seriously impede Mueller's inquiry.

Experts say there is nothing anyone could do to invalidate such pardons. A presidential pardon cannot be undone. But constitutional scholar Cass Sunstein, author of a new book on impeachment, notes that the Framers of the Constitution, in the Virginia ratification debate, discussed whether abuse of the pardon power would be an impeachable offense and James Madison explicitly said it would be.

"If the president counsels crimes personally or participates in a crime personally," Sunstein says, "and then exercises the pardon power so as to shelter the people who engaged in those crimes, the Virginia debate is very clear. That is an impeachable offense.""
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1598 on: November 03, 2017, 07:00:09 PM »
Trump knows that he is not supposed to influence the DOJ regarding individual cases; but he goes ahead and applies public pressure to Sessions to investigate Hillary and the 'dossier'; even though Sessions himself is implicated in Russiagate:

Title: "TRUMP: 'The saddest thing' is that I'm not supposed to influence the Justice Department and FBI"

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-saddest-thing-justice-department-fbi-2017-11

Extract: ""I look at what's happening with the Justice Department. Well, why aren't they going after Hillary Clinton with her emails and with her, the dossier?" Trump said, referring to the Democratic Party-funded dossier designed to find connections between Trump and Russia that has been both partially discredited and partially corroborated.

The president added that he was "very unhappy" with where the Justice Department "isn't going."

"I am not supposed to be doing the kind of things that I would love to be doing," he said. "And I am very frustrated by it.""
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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AbruptSLR

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Re: Russiagate
« Reply #1599 on: November 03, 2017, 07:03:58 PM »
As a follow on to my last post, there is more and more public evidence of Session's potential involvement in Russiagate:

Title: "Jeff Sessions’s Russia testimony problem keeps getting worse"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/3/16599426/jeff-sessions-russia-testimony

Extract: "We keep learning that he hasn’t told the full story."

Edit: I wonder whether Mueller is concerned that if he arrests Sessions, that the new acting AG (appointed by Trump) would then immediately fire Mueller.  If so, I hope that Mueller waits to arrest Sessions until he has built a bullet-proof case against The Donald.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 07:15:19 PM by AbruptSLR »
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
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