The Russiagate conspiracy theory

[TerryM]

All I asked for was :

1) a plausible alternative theory explaining the Skripal case, and
2) a recent example of where western politicians spread "relentless Ocean of Disinformation, Lies, fear mongering and 'soft propaganda".

Nobody has answered these questions yet.

1) I have provided more than one possible alternative.
2) You've just argued about the recent example of "soft propaganda' example that I provided.


How can you pretend that no examples were presented when you've argued about their contents? Don't you recognize the blatant dishonesty this displays?


If you won't read links, or are unable to understand what was written, that is not the responsibility of anyone other than yourself.
You constantly ask for additional rocks to be provided even as you deny receipt of those piled on your desk.


Your "bring me another rock" game hasn't changed at all, and the repetition has grown very old. If you feel compelled to disagree, at least find some new way to argue.
Terry

[Rob Dekker]

All I asked for was :

1) a plausible alternative theory explaining the Skripal case, and
2) a recent example of where western politicians spread "relentless Ocean of Disinformation, Lies, fear mongering and 'soft propaganda".

Nobody has answered these questions yet.

1) I have provided more than one possible alternative.

There are 14 theories in that article.
Which one do you believe is the most 'plausible' ?

2) You've just argued about the recent example of "soft propaganda' example that I provided.

How can you pretend that no examples were presented when you've argued about their contents? Don't you recognize the blatant dishonesty this displays?

OK. Calm down, cowboy. Re-read what I asked :

I read it, Terry. And I linked to the BBC article they were referring to :

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-43260651

Now, what exactly constitutes "soft" propaganda in that article ?

Now, are you going to answer that question ?
Because there are two more that remain unanswered :

1) a plausible alternative theory explaining the Skripal case, and
2) a recent example of where western politicians spread "relentless Ocean of Disinformation, Lies, fear mongering and 'soft propaganda".

[TerryM]

No more "rocks" Rob
You need to find a new shtick.


Terry

[Rob Dekker]

Unwilling to answer a few simple core questions, are you, Terry ?

[Neven]

Here's a rather recent one:

As Porton Down now confirm, here is a straightforward lie from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, a lie that British diplomats around the world have been promoting to foreign governments.



The key point is that the FCO knew it was lying. This was published six days after I was told by an FCO source, and published, that Porton Down scientists were refusing to say the substance came from Russia. The FCO knew this.

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve agent as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. 16 March 2018

There has to be some kind of redress for this. If we accept that we live in a society where the public bodies that are supposed to serve us, can lie to us and to the world in order specifically to heat up a cold war, then the future is bleak. This is a direct consequence of the lack of suitable punishment for those involved in the crime of creating lies to wage aggressive war on Iraq, particularly Tony Blair, Richard Dearlove and John Scarlett. As they are not in jail, Boris is confident he will not be either.

[TerryM]

Thierry Meysson links May's machinations of Russian involvement in Salisbury, the discovery by Assad's forces in Ghouta of a chemical weapon factory, the firing of Rex Tillerson by Trump, and Perfidious Albion's missteps.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article200232.html

Also another wrinkle in the Vil Mirzayanov saga. He apparently was a Soviet counter-intelligence officer who defected. I'd long wondered why he had no PHD after his name.

Well worth the read as it provides a broad global perspective, and explains Tillerson's sudden dismissal.
Terry

[Neven]

Has Boris Johnson issued a statement yet about what could reasonably be perceived a bald-faced lie?

The video starts at the question, Johnson dodges for a bit, but then says at 5:30 'the people at Porton Down were absolutely categorical':



This kind of stuff makes it so easy for Russia to spread FUD.

But I like what Johnson said at the start of the interview!

[TerryM]

Neven
Great interview!


My understanding is that Britain has rather strict laws re. slander. Boris may not only find himself out of a job, but out of money if someone wishes to pursue the matter.


Wonder why no comments were allowed following what should be an award winning interview.


The British public seems to have soured on the whole matter as more has been revealed.
Terry

[gerontocrat]

This is merely the latest from Boris. What many people want to know is how on earth has he not been sacked. Perhaps he knows where too many of the bodies are buried. Perhaps, rather like Trump, he has a following amongst the rank and file of the Tory faithful for whom he can do no wrong, no matter what.

Either way, he is a gift beyond price to Putin.

[TerryM]

The Art of Political Rhetoric reaches new heights in May's Tory Government.

"Shut up and go away." will ring through the ages along with some of Churchill and Kennedy's best.

"Ask not what you can do for your country. Shut up and go away"
"We will fight them on the beaches 'til they shut up and go away"

A fireplace salesman from Stoke has told Vladimir Putin to "Shut up and go away"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gavin-williamson-shut-up-go-away-russia-vladimir-putin-sergei-skripal-a8257466.html

Terry
Is the media losing the narrative?

[Neven]

I was wondering whether there was any news on Yulia Skripal, and when we are finally going to hear from her. Reuters, 50 minutes ago:

Daughter of ex-spy poisoned in UK says she and her father are recovering - Russian state TV

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Yulia Skripal, who was poisoned in Britain along with her father Sergei, has phoned her cousin in Russia and said they are both recovering and that she expects to leave hospital soon, Russian state TV and the Interfax news agency reported on Thursday.

State TV announced on Wednesday evening that the conversation had taken place, saying it had been passed a recording of it by Yulia’s cousin, Viktoria Skripal, and could not vouch for its authenticity.

Britain blames Russia for the nerve agent poisoning, something Moscow denies.

The attack left the Skripals in a critical condition, but on March 29 the hospital where they are being treated said Yulia was getting better, while the BBC, citing sources, said she was “conscious and talking.”

State TV and Interfax said Yulia Skripal had allegedly phoned Viktoria Skripal on Wednesday evening and said:

“Everything is fine, everything is fixable, everyone is getting better, everyone is alive.”

When asked about her father’s health, Yulia was cited as saying: “Everything is fine, he is resting right now, sleeping. Everyone’s health is fine, nobody has any problems that can’t be put right. I will soon be discharging myself (from hospital).”

Viktoria Skripal, Yulia’s cousin and Sergei’s niece, has said she plans to travel to England and try to bring Yulia back to Russia.

It's Russian state TV, so I'm going to wait for confirmation.

[TerryM]

It is Russian State TV. so that information will probably prove out.


To be verified is information saying that father and daughter had turned off their cell phone's GPS 4 hours prior to their death(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/skripal-turned-off-phone-gps-during-missing-four-hours-xsnb07qbs)?
That Skripal worked with Steele and Miller on Steele's dossier?
That Skripal took frequent trips out of the country (from a former neighbor who drove Yulia back from the airport)?
That Yulia had just inherited some hundreds of thousands of dollars?
That Skripal was employed by an "Anglo-American Intelligence Service"(same neighbor), or that the Royal Marines were conducting "Exercise Toxic Dagger", England's largest chemical weapons drill in Salisbury (https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/march/06/180306-toxic-storm-for-royal-marines-in-major-chemical-exercise)?


So many questions.


Why isn't Britain following international law by not allowing Russia access to her citizen(s)? or in not allowing the OPCW to investigate as per treaty obligation?


Terry

[Buddy]

I was wondering whether there was any news on Yulia Skripal, and when we are finally going to hear from her. Reuters, 50 minutes ago:

I was looking for the "Skirpal poisoning thread".  Could anyone tell me where it is?

[Neven]

It redirects back to this thread, because the way the Skripal case has been presented by politicians and the media is a reflection, and extension even, of Russiagate. It might be part of a pattern, where Russia is used by certain groups to manipulate the masses into supporting their endeavours to increase their piece of the pie of concentrated wealth (and thus get rewarded).

One of the problems is that similar groups on the perceived 'other side', for instance Putin and his oligarchs, use this then to manipulate their masses to further their goals. These groups on both sides are each other's enemies, only in so far they obstruct each other's goals. Other than that they are exactly the same, they willingly overlap, and are quite pragmatic about working together to divide us, the masses, to keep things as they have been for millennia. Their master, the mountain of concentrated wealth, doesn't care either way, as long as it gets bigger.

This to me is much more interesting than a drunk Papadopoulos talking to ambassadors, an anonymous source saying that fill-in-the-blanks-yourself, and how the glorious Mueller is working hard and honestly to, any day now, bring down the clown.

[TerryM]

Neven


If we get out of this mess without a real war I'll be surprised, but very relieved (and alive)!!
If Meyssan is correct about Tillerson's firing there may be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Could the Trumpster actually be more aware of what's going on than we've given him credit for?
Could he actually be steering us away from a fatal confrontation?


We can hope, I hope.
Terry

[Neven]

I don't care about Trump. He's the wrong person to be leading a dangerous country like the USA. All I hope, is that he's replaced with something truly better (mot less evil). My fear is that Russiagate will accomplish the opposite.

[Buddy]

Witness in Mueller Inquiry Who Advises U.A.E. Ruler Also Has Ties to Russia


It's really interesting walking through "the Trump orchard."  Every time you shake a tree....a Russian falls out.   

WASHINGTON — A witness who is cooperating in the special counsel investigation, George Nader, has connections to both the Persian Gulf states and Russia and may have information that links two important strands of the inquiry together, interviews and records show.

Mr. Nader’s ties to the United Arab Emirates are well documented — he is an adviser to its leader — but the extent of his links to Russia had not been previously disclosed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/politics/george-nader-russia-uae-special-counsel-investigation.html

[AbruptSLR]

Where there is smoke there is fire:

Title: "Everyone Is Painting GOP Congressman Dana Rohrabacher as Putin’s Puppet"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/everyone-is-painting-gop-congressman-dana-rohrabacher-as-putins-puppet

[AbruptSLR]

The Empire Strikes Back:

Title: "Russia calls UN meeting in effort to undermine UK over nerve agent attack"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/05/europe/russia-uk-security-council-intl/index.html

Extract: "Russia has called a United Nations Security Council meeting for Thursday as it seeks to undermine Britain's case that it was responsible for the poisoning of a Russian former spy.

Moscow, emboldened after the UK was forced to withdraw a claim that its scientists had pinned the blame on Russia for the attack, will attempt to further embarrass Britain in front of its international allies."

[Neven]

Why would you even go to CNN for unbiased information? And why on Earth would Putin ever want an idiot like Rohrabacher as a puppet?

[AbruptSLR]

And now for a British op/ed on the 'long battle for values' between Russia and the West:

Title: "The Guardian view on the Skripal case: a long battle for values
Editorial"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/05/the-guardian-view-on-the-skripal-case-a-long-battle-for-values

Extract: "Russia is engaging in an aggressive disinformation war over the Skripal poisoning. It would be disastrous to respond in kind
…
Anyone who thought the Sergei Skripal poisoning might be a relatively short-lived international incident, after which something like pre-existing normality would reassert itself, knows differently now. It is a month since Mr Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned in Salisbury by a novichok nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. A week later Theresa May told parliament that it was highly likely that the Russian state was directly or indirectly responsible. The British view was then backed by the main political parties and most of Britain’s major allies. Diplomats were expelled on both sides. But the scandal refuses to die down and the questions surrounding the Skripal case continue to proliferate."

[AbruptSLR]

Why would you even go to CNN for unbiased information?

The NYT and the WP put a limit on my number of views.

And why on Earth would Putin ever want an idiot like Rohrabacher as a puppet?

During a private GOP conversation during the 2016 presidential campaign, not knowing they were being recorded, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy stated he believed there are only two people that Putin pays: Trump and Rohrabacher. Maybe McCarthy was joking, maybe not.

[Neven]

I've been reading several articles on The Guardian today involving the Skripal case, but that editorial takes the cake. My goodness, what has happened to impartial, independent, objective journalism?

[AbruptSLR]

Maybe RadioFreeEurope reporting is what is needed here:

Title: "Russia Takes Skripal Poisoning Case Before UN Security Council"

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-takes-skripal-poisoning-case-before-un-security-council-/29146591.html

Extract: "Russia takes its case before the UN Security Council on April 5, calling for an international investigation into the poisoning of a former Russian spy in Britain one day after losing a bid to be part of a joint investigation by the global chemical weapons watchdog."

[Neven]

Not being able to determine the provenance of the Novichok isn't the only hole in the official narrative. It seems certain that many actors, both state and non-state, could produce it. One also wonders how Yulia Skripal can recover from Novichok, after all the stories we've heard. And how did the Skripals manage to walk around Salisbury for hours, and eating and everything, if the Novichok was on the handle of Sergej's front door? And since when do two people touch a door handle when exiting a house?

What a mess...

If I were a Putin apologist I should be gleeful about this, but it thoroughly depresses me. Where are the journalists getting to the bottom of this? Almost everything I see posted here, is parrot fluff.

[Neven]

That telephone conversation between Yulia Skripal and her cousin sounds weird to me, but my Russian isn't good enough to say why. It's all very, very strange, both in the UK and in Russia.

[Rob Dekker]

It redirects back to this thread, because the way the Skripal case has been presented by politicians and the media is a reflection, and extension even, of Russiagate. It might be part of a pattern, where Russia is used by certain groups to manipulate the masses into supporting their endeavours to increase their piece of the pie of concentrated wealth (and thus get rewarded).

One of the problems is that similar groups on the perceived 'other side', for instance Putin and his oligarchs, use this then to manipulate their masses to further their goals. These groups on both sides are each other's enemies, only in so far they obstruct each other's goals. Other than that they are exactly the same, they willingly overlap, and are quite pragmatic about working together to divide us, the masses, to keep things as they have been for millennia. Their master, the mountain of concentrated wealth, doesn't care either way, as long as it gets bigger.

Neven, I understand your belief that everything boils down to "concentrated wealth", which just wants to get bigger. But be careful with that, since it over simplifies the world we live in :

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Also, why do you say RussiaGate "might be part of a pattern, where Russia is used by certain groups to manipulate the masses" ?
Using your reasoning, wouldn't it be equally fair to state that it "might be part of a pattern, where Russia is using denial of incidents it created herself to manipulate the masses" ?

Frankly speaking, I think Russia's strategy (of plausible deniability) is quite brilliant, as we see again in the Skripal case :

Russia can do whatever they like (shoot down a civilian airliner, launch a nerve agent attack in the UK, bomb mosques and hospitals in Syria etc etc) and never has to take responsibility for their actions, they can mock the victim country if they respond, and make themselves the victim.

Because there will always be some people that believe them.

[Neven]

The answer is in the comment you quoted.

The Skripal case, like Russiagate, is an example of how both sides use the masses to further their own goals, effectively making them one side. And we happily go along with it, led by the hypnotizing tunes of the media.

[Rob Dekker]

The answer is in the comment you quoted.

The Skripal case, like Russiagate, is an example of how both sides use the masses to further their own goals, effectively making them one side. And we happily go along with it, led by the hypnotizing tunes of the media.

Sure. But do you agree that there is only ONE party responsible for the attack ?

P.S. Neven  Today at 05:57:48 AM
You are up early today !

[Neven]

Sure. But do you agree that there is only ONE party responsible for the attack ?

Yes, and that party is part of one side that doesn't think in borders, religions or race.

P.S. Neven  Today at 05:57:48 AM
You are up early today !

Work... Translating an animated film about the atrocities in Congo. After that something about banks and compliance. If it weren't for all the misery (and entertainment) in the world, I'd be out of a job.   

[Neven]

Could the Trumpster actually be more aware of what's going on than we've given him credit for?
Could he actually be steering us away from a fatal confrontation?

Well my opinion is yes and yes. But even asking a question like that places you on planet pluto in any social setting. People cannot handle it Terry.

My yes is about "could be" and possibly and hopefully he can rise to the occasion and really want to do good for his nation and the world. I can see that in him, for sure.

No chance in hell. Trump is a businessman, a showman, with no ideology or moral framework. He's the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the logical consequence of the current system. I think that he is cosying up to the military-industrial complex more and more, so that they'll let him be their puppet for a while longer. This will determine whether he serves his term (and maybe even a second one) or not. Not what liberal superhero and paragon of virtue, Robert Mueller, is doing.

And once he has served his term(s), he will be allowed into the presidential hall of fame. Has anyone seen lately what a great dancer George W Bush is? Not bad for a war criminal, eh? And so much bonding with Obama over Twitter! Donald Tinyhands can then be buddies with the Clintons again, and maybe even share Stormy Daniels' phone number with Bill.

The only interesting question is what Trump is going to be replaced with, and this will in a large part be determined by the way he is replaced. I'm pretty certain Russiagate is the wrong way, just like the Skripal affair is the wrong way to do whatever it is that those idiots in the UK government want to do.

[Rob Dekker]

Sure. But do you agree that there is only ONE party responsible for the attack ?

Yes, and that party is part of one side that doesn't think in borders, religions or race.

Ah ! So it was the UN that poisoned the Skripals ! I knew it 

[Rob Dekker]

From memory he said that the FSB had picked chatter to the brothers being a serious risk, and advised the US officials directly on 2 or 3 occasions. This occurred a year before to 2 yrs before the bombing. Russia got no replies from the US so they did a followup and were told "shut up go away" .... we don't need you.   (words to that effect)

Do you have a reference for that ?

[TerryM]

Wow
Take one little nap and the world turns inside out.


The rich/poor statistics were eye opening, and I'm going to need to do some more research.
My parents were "rich" by most measures. I rejected their values and was actually homeless for a time. I then tried my hand at making money and by most accounts was quite successful. Then I was broke for a while. Finally got back in the harness and retired with ~3$M and a 6 figure retirement package.


I never made anything like the money my parents made. They also exhibited a Noblesse Oblige that my generation finds quaint.


Those that have always had money, and those who have never had money attach an almost magical power to it. Those who have climbed from the mud are terrified of falling back, and many who have fallen from the heights die in despair.


If you've bobbed around a bit the whole thing appears a little silly. Life is a little easier with a nest egg to cushion any financial blows. The direction you're heading in may have some relationship with happiness, but once you've leveled off there are probably as many sad, or happy. poor, middle class, or rich folk. It's a helpful tool that you don't want to do without, but it's not indispensable and it wont bring happiness, or self satisfaction.


Terry

[TerryM]

Re. my (faint) hope that Meyssan is right.

I'm in no way implying either an elevated moral code for Trump, nor even expressing a hope for his intellectual prowess.

If Trump believes that, for whatever reasons, he would be better off in avoiding conflict with the other major powers that's a plus. It's the first hope I've had for a while and I'm going to cling to it. 
Besides, there was something strange about Tillerson being fired so abruptly.
Terry

[TerryM]

Lots of ink, but where's the beef?


I don't recall a story that has garnered so much media attention, while producing so few facts.


Sergei Skripal lived in a duplex, yet present or former occupants from the other side of the wall have never been interviewed.


Sergei's son died last year and may have left either $200,000 or 150,000 Euro in a secret bank account that Yulia has only recently gained access to. What did he do for a living, how did he die. Did he live with his father after his divorce?


The photos of Sergei and his daughter drinking together were not taken on the day they became ill. The furniture matches neither the restaurant nor the pub.


Sergei's wife died and a photo shows Sergei and Yulia and Mama at the duplex, but no reporter has tracked down her relations for a story.


Nobody is questioning Christopher Steele, although he was Sergei's Moscow handler, and lives nearby.
Nobody is questioning Pablo Miller who was the MI6 agent that turned Sergei and who lives in Salisbury.
No reporter is questioning other Orbis employees in Salisbury to enquire of Sergei's presence.


Were I a tabloid editor I'd be sending reporters and paparazzi in so many directions.
Interview someone who works in the restaurant, the pub, the neighborhood, his car dealer, his travel agent. Who were Yulia's friends in Salisbury, in England, in Russia.


Why no photos from the hospital. Nursed, orderlies, janitorial staff, fellow patients. Someone has seen them. Yulia has been up and talking for some time. Who has she been talking to, what has she been talking about?


Were did our heroic detective scurry off to? Why no information about how he stumbled onto the scene, what he did in the park, why he went to their house, and how his sojourn in the hospital went, and why he's keeping such a low profile.


Very damn convenient that Putin staged this just as Britain was staging a chemical weapons drill in the very same town. the "biggest chemical weapons drill ever" - in England of course.


Putin is so much smarter than the rest of us that the lack of evidence pointing his way is in itself incriminating.
Terry

[Buddy]

Mueller Reveals Search in Manafort Case, Suggesting Fresh Trail

Looks like two things are happening:  (1) Manafort continues to get squeezed, and (2) possible trail leading to OTHERS involved.

The warrant involved a search of “information associated with’’ five AT&T telephone numbers, according to a filing by prosecutors in federal court in Washington. Mueller declined to provide information about the search to defense lawyers because it involves “ongoing investigations that are not the subject of current prosecutions involving Manafort,’’ according to the filing.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-06/mueller-reveals-search-in-manafort-case-suggesting-fresh-trail

[AbruptSLR]

A British source indicates that the nerve agent production was traced back to Russia's Shikhany military base:

Title: "A secretive Russian military lab has been named as the source of the nerve agent used on ex-spy Sergei Skripal"

http://www.businessinsider.com/skripal-poisoning-shikhany-lab-in-russia-named-as-source-of-nerve-agent-2018-4?r=UK&IR=T

Extract: "The nerve agent used to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal was made in a secretive military science facility in southwestern Russia, according to intelligence cited by British media.

The Times newspaper reported that British officials have linked the chemical used on Skripal and his daughter Yulia to Shikhany military base, Russia's leading chemical research facility."

[TerryM]

Skripal's pets die after being locked in his house by police, but the good news is that Mr. Skripal is "responding nicely & is no longer in critical condition"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sergei-skripal-latest-updates-nerve-agent-attack-salisbury-hospital-poison-yulia-russia-pets-a8291906.html

And the evil Russians are asking Britain to grant visas to Skripal's relatives.

The whole "unbelievably toxic military grade nerve agent" story appears to be breaking down before our eyes.

One "victim" left the hospital some time ago.
One "victim" is making international phone calls.
One "victim" is "responding nicely" and isn't in "critical condition"
The other "victims" weren't admired for treatment.

And the emergency room Dr. says they've never, ever, had a nerve agent patient.

Hope the starved cat didn't make a mess of the house.
Some brave person should have fed them or brought them out.

Are these the same brave people that want to go to war with Russia?
Terry

BTW
Don't know a word of Russian, but if that was Yulia's voice, she doesn't sound like a vegetable.

[Neven]

A British source indicates that the nerve agent production was traced back to Russia's Shikhany military base:

Are you sure they're not talking about your house, ASLR?

You should've posted this amazing map that goes with the article:



No doubt, 'the Russians are scrubbing it down', as we speak.

How can you post this stuff? 

[TerryM]

Neven
Businessinsider is the same outfit that had offices on the Berlin Wall, and vowed to keep reporting Soviet atrocities until the wall came down.


I think they're staying around now until greater Israel has conquered the savage Palestinians.


Not an unbiased source of news.
Terry

[TerryM]

A niece verifies that it was Yulia's voice on the phone.


Victoria's visa is still being held up by the Brits.


The Russians who had asked after Skripal's pets well being now are asking why their bodies were incinerated. We'll never know what an autopsy would have revealed, and I'll never understand how people could allow pets to be left without food, water, and companionship for so long.


That has to be worthy of an animal cruelty conviction for everyone in the whole damn command structure.


I watched the cops allow a kid to bleed out in the middle of an intersection because they were afraid that somebody somewhere might have shot at one of them. My disgust at their cowardice is topped my my disgust at the animals that never made a move to save those pets.


Someone issued an order to let them starve.
Post his address and picture on the internet.
Terry

[silkman]

Over the years I’ve refrained from commenting on this and other similar threads, preferring to focus on the practicality of things I can do to address in a small way the challenges of a warming world.

But I’m beginning to find the tone of the debate on the Skripal incident increasingly disturbing as previously rational contributors on both sides seem to be losing all sense of perspective.

What must perfectly clear to everyone is that, especially in the current  febrile “fake news” atmosphere,  we’ll never get total clarity on what happened, who did it and why. But hard lines are being drawn based on preconceptions.

I read the Meyssan article with interest. Sure, it builds an interesting set of potential relationships and events but to conclude that it was all a cunning plan developed by the British government to destabilise Russia in order to re-establish it’s place on the world is incredibly far-fetched. They can’t even get their heads around dealing with Michel Barnier about the Irish border for heavens sake.

The proximity of Salisbury (wonderful cathedral – go see it if you get a chance) to Porton Down is also a double-edged sword. Yes, it was amazingly convenient for the government scientists to be able to do their job and pop into their local on the way home but if you were planning to undermine another sovereign state would you choose to do in in your back yard?

The UK’s explanation of events is also rather less than clear cut and, inevitably, Boris has once again opened his mouth and put his foot in it. Why did the agent take so long to act? What about the missing four hours? Why haven’t we seen any pictures from the hospital? Why are they both still alive? All valid questions.

So, based on the information I have the jury is out on who and why but that doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion and that’s all it is, an opinion. Right now I find it easier to put my faith in those elements the mainstream media that have a track record of honest investigative journalism and an independent perspective; in the UK for me that’s  the Guardian and Channel 4 news and both are currently aligning with the Shikhany lab as being the Novichok source and I’m willing to back that judgement whilst keeping an open mind.

It really hurt when Neven impugned my beloved “Manchester” Guardian further up this thread in defense of his contrary view. I would hope their track record of openness and independence would  count for something.

Finally, a historical note. I once had the opportunity, back in the deep dark days of the cold war in the 70’s, to visit both Porton Down and the Walter Reed Army Institute to present seminars on some research I’d done in an area of pharmacology (not nerve agents!) that had real medical potential but was also of interest to those institutions. It was an interesting experience. I didn’t come away with great confidence that I’d still be around in 2018…. But here I certainly am and I’m pretty sure that Terry’s fears of global conflagration won’t come about either.

[TerryM]

Silk
I hope you're right, especially about global conflagration!


I haven't found any source that I feel is reliable. Hence I've been googling about to try and figure out who is doing what to whom. I'll leave why to Meyssan et al. - but I hope he's right too.


The MD who runs the emergency ward has his job and reputation on the line. When he says they never admitted anyone suffering from Nerve Agent Poisoning. I believe him. His job, standing in the community, and reputation are on the line.


Likewise the Dr. from Porton Down. You've met these guys. Do you think that they would say that they don't know where the "agent" came from if that were not true?


I've no idea who the spooks are that came up with the Shikhany Lab story are, who they told their story to, nor if what they said was accurately reported. I'm quite sure that Boris was lying through his teeth when he claimed that the Porton Downs guy said they knew it was Russian.


I apparently have more faith in the Perfidity of Albion than yourself and I probably should bow to your expertise, but even from across a wide ocean the reek of disinformation is heavy on the air.


Ask how Sergei has been supporting himself since his release.
Ask why father and daughter would have turned off their GPS's for 4 hours prior to them being discovered.


Do you question the coincidence of Paul Miller, The now retired agent who turned Sergei. Christopher Steele, the now retired agent who was Sergei's handler. Orbis Information that is owned at least in part by Steele and who employs Pablo at least on a case by case basis, and Porton Downs, who would never allow Novichoks to escape their walls, all ended up so close to where Sergei lived and where Sergei and his daughter were poisoned during the biggest chemical weapons exercise in England?


It's all a little too cozy for me.


I sincerely doubt that the vaunted FSB would blotch a hit so terribly.
I doubt that even MI5/6 or the RCMP would screw things up so badly.


I'm open to suggestions that it was a drug - or poison deal gone bad.
I'm open to suggestions that Steele or Pablo wanted to be sure that the convicted turncoat wouldn't turn on them.
I'm open to suggestions that May jumped a little too quickly on an opportunity to show her mettle.


But I can't believe that Putin would organize this on damn near the eve of his election, within weeks of the Russian World Cup, something he's been eagerly promoting, and without getting better results.


This wasn't some mad Russian plot that a brave agent foiled.
This wasn't a well executed hit.
This was a clusterfaux of rather epic proportions - or was it?


A father and his daughter overdose on a park bench in Salisbury - it makes the local news.
They both recover and receive the required counseling. - The relatives are abashed, but grateful.
The local gendarmes keep Sergei under surveillance for a long time. - lots of overtime.


If it wasn't for May, this wouldn't have made it through two news cycles in the local media.
Terry

[SteveMDFP]

. .
So, based on the information I have the jury is out on who and why but that doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion and that’s all it is, an opinion. Right now I find it easier to put my faith in those elements the mainstream media that have a track record of honest investigative journalism and an independent perspective; in the UK for me that’s  the Guardian and Channel 4 news and both are currently aligning with the Shikhany lab as being the Novichok source and I’m willing to back that judgement whilst keeping an open mind.

It really hurt when Neven impugned my beloved “Manchester” Guardian further up this thread in defense of his contrary view. I would hope their track record of openness and independence would  count for something. . .

Thanks for sharing your reasonable opinion and perspective. 

Myself, I see no reason to doubt that the chemical composition of the agent is correct.
I don't believe the idea that chemical traces can identify a specific laboratory.

I don't think it should be surprising that the victims are gradually recovering.  It's not like these agents get human testing.  And the animal testing would rarely, I think, include studies of what happens when the animals are put on life support to keep them alive while recovering. 

These nerve agents act by inhibiting the acetylcholinesterase enzyme.  With buildup of acetylcholine, muscles stop responding to normal nerve stimulation -- breathing stops.  But hearts don't need nerve stimulation to keep on beating.  So if you keep the lungs oxygenated, there should be time to let normal physiology resume.  Though it's plausible that severe brain damage could happen anyway, with a supra-lethal dose, even if oxygenation stays stable.

I share your appreciation of The Guardian.  It's just published a piece expanding on what BusinessInsider has to say:

UK and US given case file on 'nerve agent made in Russian lab'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/uk-us-case-file-russian-nerve-agent-shikhany-spy-poisoning

Cheers,

Steve

[Neven]

It really hurt when Neven impugned my beloved “Manchester” Guardian further up this thread in defense of his contrary view.

It really hurt me too! The Guardian Environment page has been the first thing that pops up when I open a new browser window for years, I absolutely love George Monbiot (and Andrew Simms) for opening my mind, and I've even donated at one point. The editorials I read these past few days, were absolutely dreadful. Journalism is supposed to question power, not speak to it!

As for my contrary views, let me make clear yet again that I'm not 'with the terrorists', just because I'm not 'with us'. I'm not a Putin apologist and believe I can condemn beyond a black and white choice. The way things have proceeded so far in the Skripal affair, has been abysmal. So much bluffing, so much conjecture, so much - dare I say it - fake news.

Instead of doing some investigative journalism, the media is beating its tabloid drum for war, none of the outlets deviating from the mantra. In the Cold War there was at least some discussion on what was the best way to act on the international stage. There is none of that, the ranks are closed, the media are firmly behind whatever it is their government tells them to trust their word on. Even The Guardian!

Absence of evidence is actually proof beyond doubt. And no matter how things turn out to be different, that was just a minor mistake by silly BoJo and we're still 100% sure Russia did it. Look, we found the place where it was made!

If we, as citizens, go along with this so meekly, there's nothing they can't do to us, no war they cannot lead us into, no freedom they can't take away. And in the end, it's all to distract us from the real issues. Why are we so stupid?

I want real investigative journalism, transparency and a healthy distrust of power. Is that too much to ask?

[silkman]

Terry
I don’t know the guys at Porton Down though I might just have met their parents!

And I’m certainly not an expert on nerve agents but I do understand the pharmacology as does Steve. The pharmacokinetics are important too. “Novichok” isn’t a single compound, it’s a class and it would appear the one used was a solid which means it would probably be  absorbed slowly through the skin or possibly only after being absorbed through rubbing eyes etc.

There is no prior experience of Novichok toxicity in man so it’s likely that it might not look like a classic nerve gas attack where the impact is immediate. I don’t think it should be surprising that the symptoms weren’t immediately recognised in the emergency room.

As for the case against Shikhany, the prima facie case that the Russians were working with  Novichok there well after the stocks in Uzbekistan were destroyed seems strong which doesn’t prove anything but if true creates an opportunity.

As for Perfidious Albion I’m sure that in the past that label was well deserved and I’m equally sure our deep state has all the smarts to earn a similar reputation. Where our views differ is the fact (I’ve be trying to avoid that word) that Putin is clearly just as perfidious and also seems to have had access to the technology. Why to you dismiss the possibility?

Your strongest argument relates to the timing with respect to the World Cup which though many North Americans don’t understand it is of massive importance right now to Russia. I could make the argument that the whole thing was organised by the English FA who, back in 2012, were “cheated” out of the tournament by some very underhand Russian tactics. Please don’t take that Seriously!

[Neven]

Why to you dismiss the possibility?

The possibility isn't dismissed. The problem is that all other possibilities have been dismissed from the start, even now, when it has become clear that UK politicians played fast and loose with the truth, that it's not known where the Novichok (if it was that) was produced, that everyone is actually recovering, and so on.

That's something one would expect Putin to do, which is probably the justification for forgoing any form of due process. And that's how you become like Putin.

[magnamentis]

I don't believe the idea that chemical traces can identify a specific laboratory.

just in this you're definitely wrong, it's not about believe, it's a fact that this is possible, mostly not because of chemical composition and traces but due to very specific "impurities"

[zizek]

Russia can do whatever they like (shoot down a civilian airliner, launch a nerve agent attack in the UK, bomb mosques and hospitals in Syria etc etc) and never has to take responsibility for their actions, they can mock the victim country if they respond, and make themselves the victim.

I'm not sure what you're talking about "Russia can do whatever they like".  This is so far from the truth it blows my frigging mind.

• The US and other nations have been imposing significant sanctions on Russia.
• NATO and US are providing massive amounts of material support to Anti-Russian proxy groups (fascists Ukrainians, anti-Assad rebels)
• Ejecting diplomats
• An aggressive and successful anti-russian narrative developed by international media