Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Russia, Russia, Russia  (Read 211108 times)

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4200 on: June 15, 2018, 07:30:37 AM »
"who resorts [to] personal smearing ... and conspiracy theories "[/i] is something you'd never stoop to doing, hey Rob? :)

Lurker, why not STOP the ad hominums, and come to the right side of history ?
Just drop your support of murderous dictators, and go with reason and evidence instead..
Would be so refreshing, for this forum, for humanity and justice and for your own peace of mind as well.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4201 on: June 15, 2018, 07:40:04 AM »
That's so brutal a criticism :)
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4202 on: June 15, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »
Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44471985
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/13/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-sarin-chlorine-use-syria/

They cannot assign blame (Russia vetoed a UN proposition to do so).
However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina.

Also, since the Syrian government is the only one to be known to made Sarin, attribution is fairly well determined.

Also Bellingcat gave an excellent overview of all of the different chemical weapon systems that the Syrian government has used over the years :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/14/chemical-munitions-used-syrian-government-2012-2018/

Now the wait is for the OPCW to release its findings for the Douma attacks.
Here is an anticipation for what to look out for in that upcoming report :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/30/watch-upcoming-opcw-ffm-report-douma-chemical-attack/
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4203 on: June 15, 2018, 08:36:50 AM »
More spin

Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

Original source absent Spin, is here:
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-confirms-use-of-sarin-and-chlorine-in-ltamenah-syria-on-24-and-25-march-2017/


Quote
"However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina Ltamenah."

Really? No, that's false.

The ref link goes to an OCT 2017 BBC news media report which is NOT recent and not a genuine CW REPORT. Spin, spin, spin it anyway you can.

Quote
Also, since the Syrian government is the only one to be known to made Sarin, attribution is fairly well determined.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ...... it's a war zone, a civil war, and people lie while people who might tell the truth are killed. Lovers of Sharia law Islamist head chopping terrorists unite!

................

From the original source document: https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1636-2018_e_.pdf

1.6 Whilst  the  collection  of  facts  relating  to  the  25  and  30  March  (S/1548/2017,  dated  2  November 2017) incidents was ongoing, the team also identified witnesses in relation
to the alleged incident on 24 March 2017, in  Ltamenah. The interview process for the
24 March 2017 incident started at the end of July 2017
+90 days later

1.7 Once the impact locations of the incident  on 24 March 2017 were determined during
the  interviews
,  the  FFM  coordinated the  sample  collection from  these  locations  with  an NGO.   +90 days later

1.8 The FFM concluded that sarin was very likely used as a chemical weapon in the south
of Ltamenah on 24 March 2017. (NOT definitely used)

......................


1.10
The  FFM  determined  that  chlorine  was  released  from  cylinders  through  mechanical 
impact. The FFM concluded that chlorine was very likely used as a chemical weapon
at Ltamenah Hospital and the surrounding area on 25 March 2017. 

.......................

DEPLOYMENT DETAILS AND CHRONOLOGY

As  with  all  the  allegations  and  incidents  referenced  in  previous  reports of the FFM (see paragraph 3.4 above), various constraints, mainly related to security, have not enabled immediate access to sites by the FFM.

4.6
Given  that  those  constraints  prevented  a  team  deployment  to  the  location  of  the alleged  incident,  the  FFM  determined  that  the  principal  methods  for  collecting  and  evaluating  the  credibility  of  information  include the  following:
 
examination  of  existing reports; assessment and corroboration of background information; conduct of interviews   with   relevant   medical   care   providers,   alleged   casualties,   and   other  individuals  linked  to  the  reported  incident; review  of  documentation  and  records  provided  by  interviewees;  analysis  of  the  signs  and  symptoms  of  casualties  as  reported  by  interviewees;  and  receipt  of environmental  samples,  for  subsequent analysis.

4.7
The  FFM  team  identified  relevant  witnesses through  face-to-face  interviews  or 
teleconference calls, open-source research, medical records provided to the team, and
through interaction with NGOs. Access to  witnesses was coordinated with NGOs

In addition to liaising with representatives of several NGOs, including but not limited to  the  Same  (CVDCS) and  the  Syrian  Civil  Defence  (SCD),  also  known  as  White  Helmets, 

................

Great NGOs like the White Helmet terrorist group.

No visit to the site.
No collection of onsite evidence by OPCW staff.
no contact with witness until after 90 days
No collection of samples arranged until after 90 days
Collection and forwarding of samples done by NGO staffers +90-120 days after

Those witnesses arranged and samples done by NGOs/White Helmets

No professional Police Investigative level witness questioning.
No access to other non-NGO authorized witnesses
No lie detector testing regime used on witnesses
No access to Syrian Army witnesses or commanders
No access to SAR helicopter pilots and soldiers
No access to any Russian military present

Much spin spin spin ... so much spin I feel like I am locked inside a washing machine here.

There are FAR too many gullible people who don’t take the time to look harder for the Truth. And FAR too many people have been persuaded that if enough of the "right" kind of people say it often enough it must be true. As Mark Twain said:

“It’s easier to con someone, than it is to convince him he has already been conned.

Please understand I am not telling other people what to think or what they should believe. I am showing, by way of examples, how to do your own media research and how to think better with more knowledge and objectivity than otherwise might be the case (or at least offering an opportunity to do so.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:47:28 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4204 on: June 15, 2018, 08:52:06 AM »
More spin

Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

Original source absent Spin, is here:
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-confirms-use-of-sarin-and-chlorine-in-ltamenah-syria-on-24-and-25-march-2017/


From that report :

Quote
THE HAGUE, Netherlands —13 June 2018—The Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), confirmed in a report released today that sarin was very likely used as a chemical weapon in the south of Ltamenah, Syrian Arab Republic, on 24 March 2017.  The FFM also concluded that chlorine was very likely used as a chemical weapon at Ltamenah Hospital and the surrounding area on 25 March 2017.

So BBC's summary that "The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day." is spot on.

What exactly is your problem with the BBC report here ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4205 on: June 15, 2018, 09:12:17 AM »
Quote
"However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina Ltamenah."

Really? No, that's false.

The ref link goes to an OCT 2017 BBC news media report which is NOT recent and not a genuine CW REPORT. Spin, spin, spin it anyway you can.

Here is the OPCW report :
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-khan-shaykhun-on-4-april-2017/
which states quite clearly that Sarin was used at Khan Shaykhun :
Quote
In a report released by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the OPCW Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) confirmed that people were exposed to sarin, a chemical weapon, on 4 April 2017 in the Khan Shaykhun area, Idlib Province in the Syrian Arab Republic.

And here is the UN report :
http://undocs.org/S/2017/904
which states quite uncontroversially that Syrian government is responsible for these attacks :
Quote
On the basis of the foregoing, the Leadership Panel is confident that the Syrian Arab
Republic is responsible for the release of sarin at Khan Shaykhun on 4 April 2017.

Exactly what is "false" about any of these reports ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4206 on: June 15, 2018, 09:25:21 AM »
Exactly what is "false" about any of these reports ?

Repeating myself is a waste of everyone's time.
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4207 on: June 15, 2018, 09:28:13 AM »
And the UN mission "recently ended" because Russia vetoed a continuation of its mandate :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons/russia-casts-10th-u-n-veto-on-syria-action-blocking-inquiry-renewal-idUSKBN1DG31I

Quote
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia on Thursday cast its 10th veto of United Nations Security Council action on Syria since the war began in 2011, blocking a U.S.-drafted resolution to renew an international inquiry into who is to blame for chemical weapons attacks in Syria.

Seriously, Lurker. It is time to drop your support for murderous dictators, and join the free world where reason and evidence and rational thought prevails.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4208 on: June 15, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
And the UN mission "recently ended" because Russia vetoed a continuation of its mandate :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons/russia-casts-10th-u-n-veto-on-syria-action-blocking-inquiry-renewal-idUSKBN1DG31I

Quote
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia on Thursday cast its 10th veto of United Nations Security Council action on Syria since the war began in 2011, blocking a U.S.-drafted resolution to renew an international inquiry into who is to blame for chemical weapons attacks in Syria.

Seriously, Lurker. It is time to drop your support for murderous dictators, and join the free world where reason and evidence and rational thought prevails.

Did I not only 'RECENTLY' ask

"who resorts [to] personal smearing ... and conspiracy theories " is something you'd never stoop to doing, hey Rob? :)

Trumps summit was recent. 2017 isn't.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:32:20 PM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 472
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 154
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4209 on: June 15, 2018, 05:49:59 PM »
Breaking news: Manafort is going to jail for witness tampering.

Jim Pettit

  • Global Moderator
  • ASIF Upper Class
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4210 on: June 15, 2018, 06:21:35 PM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

Meh. Mate's a bit of a one-trick pony. His last 16 months of articles for The Nation:

2/2/2017: Stop With the Conspiracy Theories—Trump Is Bad Enough
10/6/2017: Russiagate Is More Fiction Than Fact
11/2/2017: Why the Papadopoulos Plea Isn’t a Smoking Gun
11/16/2017: RT Was Forced to Register as a Foreign Agent
12/5/2017: The Trump Team Definitely Colluded With a Foreign Power—Just Not the One You Think
12/21/2017: More Media Malpractice in Russiagate
2/22/2018: What We’ve Learned in Year 1 of Russiagate
4/11/2018: The Get-Tough-on-Russia Consensus Is Escalating the Crisis in Syria
5/3/2018: Don’t Count on Russiagate to Bring Trump Down
6/13/2018: The Mueller Indictments Still Don’t Add Up to Collusion

IOW, his stance on "Russiagate" has not wavered one bit even as more and more evidence has come to light, and indictments and pleas have piled up. In fact, his thinking on the matter neatly mirrors Trump's own public statements: 1) There was no contact with the Russians. 2) Okay, there was contact, but no collusion was involved. 3) Okay, there was collusion, but it wasn't the bad kind. 4) Okay, it was bad collusion, but collusion isn't illegal, so so what? 5) Even if the collusion was illegal, it wasn't Trump, but Manafort, Michael Cohen, Jared, Donald, Jr., and other people he barely ever met and doesn't really know. 6) Okay, so he really does have long histories with those people; what's wrong with cozying up to Putin? 7) Look! Hillary's emails!!!

FWIW, Mate's pieces at The Intercept and elsewhere show pretty much the same mindset. We get it: Mate thinks there's nothing there. But unfortunately for him--and even more so for Mueller--he's very likely wrong.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 472
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 154
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4211 on: June 15, 2018, 07:08:41 PM »
But starting around minute 16 it goes seriously off the rails.

Did you keep watching and considering the issues being raised from 20 mins to 45 minutes? If you did not then I think you may have done a disservice to yourself. Taken as a whole it is a very balanced dialogue which touches on and reminds viewers of many known facts and competing memes. Those things can be cross checked and verified independently.

I did in fact listen almost to the end, and found the first 16 minutes agreeable. But as the caricatures grew, and the information contradicted what I know in favor of clubbing together to accuse democrats and liberals, I began to find these appealing young people out of touch and eager to confirm their bias. They did include a number of caveats, but it was clear they were on a mission. I have an excellent memory and have been spending way too much time following all the strands of these developments.

Reagan accelerated the rot (and Thatcher) and we've been in trouble ever since. Bill Clinton - whose sleaze factor has always been a problem - was popular because he provided a corrective, in spite of unified opposition that survives to this day. He compromised because he had to, and to a sector of the progressive part of this argument, no compromise is acceptable, they'd rather burn the house down, which is what is happening, than face the real enemies.

There are real enemies about. Now it is time to bring together good people and start looking for the best in ourselves and not the worst. The Parkland youngsters are showing us the way, going around the country, convening town halls and helping voters register.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4212 on: June 16, 2018, 02:27:34 AM »
Thanks for the nice reply. I hear you. wish to make a suggestion about one aspect below


I did in fact listen almost to the end, and found the first 16 minutes agreeable. But as the caricatures grew, and the information contradicted what I know in favor of clubbing together to accuse democrats and liberals, I began to find these appealing young people out of touch and eager to confirm their bias. They did include a number of caveats, but it was clear they were on a mission.


I think I understand the 'defensiveness' and where it comes from. Have you considered taking your comments directly to the source and telling them what you think and why? Maybe they might learn something - like how to 'temper' their words so they don't inadvertently undermine their own stated self-identification as "progressive libel lefties" and anti-what trump stands for?

for example, email them directly where they 'work' from, the intercept, TYT, or their Youtube channel and ask them to consider what you say and think about it, and ask them if they could do a live / written public response to your points and address them openly and seriously?

You could say to them "this is what I heard you saying - is that what you really think/believe? Because you Susan (and all your like minded "progressive libel lefties" you know) find it offensive/wrong misguided (or whatever)" - and be specific by quoting exactly their own words and phrases. Try to avoid broad brushed generalities and emotive characterizations (iow do as I say, don't do as I sometimes do :) ).

I think you have the skills to communicate clearly what you think to others. Maybe these folks would listen and consider it seriously coming from you personally and directly? They have a public platform so if you can influence their style or thinking (even a little) it may have a sustained long term effect. Win-Win.

Not saying you "should" do this nor that what you are doing is not good enough or not useful. For it is! fwiw my approach when I'm hearing bs coming out of the mouth of my politicians (but much less often media personalities) is to write directly to them about I think about that. Hoping maybe how I say something might be a key to unlock their minds and see what everyone else complaining about to them have a good point on an issue. Maybe be the Straw that broke the camels back kind of thing.

I believe the same about Trumps supporters. Railing against Trump personally and the agencies who were carrying such messages before he came along are less likely to change their entrenched views (and motivations) - which is why engaging in a constructive manner with the people who maybe blindly swallowed all the rhetoric and bought into it (without really thinking or being fully informed of all relevant information) - and who now keep hearing their preferred  media promoters to repeat it "as if it's all true" are the ones to engage with and present a more honest picture of reality. Yes, easier said than done. Making comments on news media / social forums like the guardian doesn't seem to work at all - usually it only makes it worse.

So how to communicate to this group of Americans directly (those who may be more open to a real conversation about the issues) is a very difficult thing today.

Accepting this effort is also more likely than not going to be a waste of time - therefore pick your battles - and let the rest go. (I try ... )

« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 02:47:23 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4213 on: June 16, 2018, 06:06:19 AM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

Meh. Mate's a bit of a one-trick pony. His last 16 months of articles for The Nation:

2/2/2017: Stop With the Conspiracy Theories—Trump Is Bad Enough
10/6/2017: Russiagate Is More Fiction Than Fact
11/2/2017: Why the Papadopoulos Plea Isn’t a Smoking Gun
11/16/2017: RT Was Forced to Register as a Foreign Agent
12/5/2017: The Trump Team Definitely Colluded With a Foreign Power—Just Not the One You Think
12/21/2017: More Media Malpractice in Russiagate
2/22/2018: What We’ve Learned in Year 1 of Russiagate
4/11/2018: The Get-Tough-on-Russia Consensus Is Escalating the Crisis in Syria
5/3/2018: Don’t Count on Russiagate to Bring Trump Down
6/13/2018: The Mueller Indictments Still Don’t Add Up to Collusion

IOW, his stance on "Russiagate" has not wavered one bit even as more and more evidence has come to light, and indictments and pleas have piled up. In fact, his thinking on the matter neatly mirrors Trump's own public statements: 1) There was no contact with the Russians. 2) Okay, there was contact, but no collusion was involved. 3) Okay, there was collusion, but it wasn't the bad kind. 4) Okay, it was bad collusion, but collusion isn't illegal, so so what? 5) Even if the collusion was illegal, it wasn't Trump, but Manafort, Michael Cohen, Jared, Donald, Jr., and other people he barely ever met and doesn't really know. 6) Okay, so he really does have long histories with those people; what's wrong with cozying up to Putin? 7) Look! Hillary's emails!!!

FWIW, Mate's pieces at The Intercept and elsewhere show pretty much the same mindset. We get it: Mate thinks there's nothing there. But unfortunately for him--and even more so for Mueller--he's very likely wrong.

Thanks for that overview, Jim.

I read some of these articles, and he indeed seems to follow the Trump-narrative pretty closely. But even more than pro-Trump, Mate seems to be pro-Russia.

Mate may be another example of far-left meeting far-right, although I still think Mate is many steps up from Dore, who is pretty much parroting right-wingers like Alex Jones and Hannity.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 08:23:41 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4214 on: June 16, 2018, 06:43:12 AM »
Looks like Russia's new "USA Really" project is off to a rocky start :



https://codastory.com/disinformation-crisis/information-war/russian-troll-or-clumsy-publicity-hound?utm_campaign=social&utm_source=twitter

Russian Troll or Clumsy Publicity Hound?
A Russian media executive says he’s come to Washington to test the limits of American freedom

Quote
Alexander Malkevich might be the new face of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s attempt to subvert American democracy. Or he might be a bumbling provocateur.

Malkevich, a Russian media executive with ties to the Kremlin, arrived in Washington this week to launch USA Really, an English-language news site that spreads the kind of disinformation and discord attributed to Russian trolls in a high-profile indictment earlier this year.

It has not been a soft landing.

First, WeWork ejected him from the co-working space he’d rented across the street from the White House — just two hours after he entered the building.

Then, his plan to stage a rally in front of the White House to mark the website’s launch was dashed because he sent his permit request to the wrong office.


It gets worse from there on...
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4215 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:13 AM »
Looks like Russia's new "USA Really" project is off to a rocky start :

"...  it will focus on promoting information and problems that are hushed up by major American publications."

Fertile fields galore. :)
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4216 on: June 16, 2018, 10:20:15 AM »
Mate thinks there's nothing there.

I admit I have not read every word or seen Mr. Mate in every interview he's done the last months. But from those things I have seen my take message of what "Mate thinks" is that there is a lot of talk and very little hard known evidence - about the core issue that being Russian Govt directed interference in the elections or collusion with the Trump campaign to interfere to his benefit.

He is not so much saying there is nothing there, but there is very little known (and in the public domain or via independent research) for certain that would amount to proving/answering the key question. He doesn't pretend he knows anything from inside the Investigation (that may be being withheld and not leaked yet) and so he restricts himself to what's known at the time - when he has written about it. 

Seems to me his general theme has been of caution and not to rush to judgement based solely on beliefs, opinions, unproven allegations, and making connections that may not in fact amount to anything "criminal" or substantial proof. "circumstantial coincidences" alone is not real evidence. Connecting people who know each other is not the same as evidence of a conspiracy going on or having anything to do with the elections.

Seems to me recently anyone with a Russian name has connections with the Kremlin ... yet I never see any proof for these endless claims. Clapper has connections  with the White House, Congress, the CIA, the FBI and the intelligence services all over the USA ..... but he is never presented to the public like that ..... "well known former CIA intelligence chief with military industrial ties and 'deep state' connections to the Democrat Party and Congressional aides Director Mr  Clapper said today the USA is as pure as snow."

He sounds quite skeptical (as a scientist doing research would be) and quite logical in his approach. He doesn't seem to have missed any "allegation" or "belief" that been floated thus far. iow he's rational and cautious about all the "claims being thrown around willy nilly across all media and by loud-mouthed politicians and related "Players" from all sides of the political spectrum.

 Besides the only thing that matters is:

Does Mueller have any evidence of interference and collusion back to Putin and the Russian govt,

and if so does he have enough evidence to bring charges,

and if so will he win the case/s and the Court of Appeals and in the SCOTUS?

That's the only questions that count - the rest is fluff, bluff and bluster -  no matter who is saying it.

Once upon a time being rational and skeptical of untested unproven claims, allegations, opinions, beliefs and theories backed up by a lack of hard evidence used to be a GOOD THING.

We all need better mates! Not less. :)

[ PS and shouldn't this discussion topic be in the Mueller investigation thread? Not that I care myself. I'm good. ]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 10:33:30 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3424
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4217 on: June 17, 2018, 09:34:36 PM »
Russia dumping Treasuries, reduces holdings by half.

"Russia proceeded to sell $47.4 billion out of the $96.1 billion the country had in US treasury bonds in March"

https://www.rt.com/business/429931-russia-sells-us-treasuries/

sidd

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3795
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4218 on: June 17, 2018, 10:54:03 PM »
Russia dumping Treasuries, reduces holdings by half.

"Russia proceeded to sell $47.4 billion out of the $96.1 billion the country had in US treasury bonds in March"

https://www.rt.com/business/429931-russia-sells-us-treasuries/

sidd
This is possibly a reaction to Trump's aluminum dumping tariff.

https://tomluongo.me/2018/06/16/trump-attacks-aluminum-russia-debt/

The continued purchase of Russian titanium as well as Russian rocket engines by the American government may indicate to European nationals some level of hypocrisy in the American position.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-17/despite-new-tough-sanctions-us-takes-delivery-russian-rocket-engines

Terry

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3424
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4219 on: June 18, 2018, 10:04:27 PM »
Ooo, look another russian:

" ... the man who approached Stone is actually a Russian national ... "

But not just any Russian:  FBI informant to boot

" he had provided information to the FBI for 17 years"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-associate-roger-stone-reveals-new-contact-with-russian-national-during-2016-campaign/2018/06/17/4a8123c8-6fd0-11e8-bd50-b80389a4e569_story.html

So that makes two agents who approached the Trump campaign. Halper from CIA and Greenberg from FBI. Mifsud looks like UK or russian agent. Dearlove, Steele, Skripal, Miller all MI6. Page and Sater, FBI informants.

At this point it seems easier to list the ones that ain't spooks than the ones who are.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4220 on: June 19, 2018, 10:30:41 AM »
Another red card for Russia, for foul play. This time in Syria :


This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4221 on: June 19, 2018, 10:41:51 AM »
Ooo, look another russian:

From your article :

Quote
Stone and Caputo’s interactions with Greenberg mean that at least 11 Trump associates or campaign officials have acknowledged interactions with a Russian during the election season or presidential transition. Those interactions have become public in the year and a half since a Trump spokeswoman said no one associated with the campaign had communications with Russians or other foreign entities.

This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3424
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4222 on: June 21, 2018, 12:03:17 AM »
Russians "sow discord among Americans "

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russian-trolls-meddling-us-immigration-controversy-top-gop/story?id=56032588

If it wasn't for these meddling russians, the USA would be full of peace and love, and the song of the turtle dove would be heard in the land.

sidd

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4223 on: June 23, 2018, 01:26:17 PM »
Mosul & Aleppo: What MSM didn’t tell you happened after liberation of 2 cities (PHOTOS)

 Aleppo and Mosul, cities that endured some of the worst urban warfare in the 21st century, have quite different liberation stories, but they are alike in the way media treated them with oblivion once the post-war struggle began.

Both the Syrian city of Aleppo and Iraq’s Mosul found themselves gripped in fierce battles in late 2016. Syrian forces were trying to liberate the eastern part of Aleppo from militant groups to end the mortar shelling, which was killing civilians in the western half, and to begin rebuilding the war-ravaged districts of the city. An ambitious Russia-backed effort to evacuate civilians from the warzone set up humanitarian corridors.

It was the US-backed Iraqi battle for Mosul, however, that captured the Western media’s favor as a heroic struggle to liberate civilians from Islamic State (IS, ISIS/ISIL), while the war in Aleppo was presented in a markedly different light.

The chaotic battle for Mosul, where IS terrorists ruthlessly used civilians as human shields amid relentless US-led coalition bombing, was no less of a tragic story of suffering, but the absence of evacuations for civilians made the city warfare particularly extreme. When it came to coverage, however, the MSM mostly picked military advances while the toll of the fighting was covered in a hushed and infrequent manner.



But as the battle ended and the city was pronounced liberated from IS, the story of Mosul’s struggles was seemingly cut short in the media once and for all. But what happened next?

The battle for Aleppo ended in the very end of 2016, and the city has been vigorously striving to get back to peaceful life ever since. The cafés have reopened, the World Cup is broadcasted, and people are celebrating holidays – of several different religions – in peace.
https://www.rt.com/news/430616-aleppo-mosul-liberation-aftermath/

"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4224 on: June 24, 2018, 06:49:08 AM »
Published time: 23 Jun, 2018
Syrian troops came under massive attack in the southwest of the country overnight, the Russian Reconciliation Center said on Saturday. Around 1,000 terrorists from Al-Nusra Front (currently known as Jabhat Fateh al-Sham) attacked positions of the 9th tank division, inflicting casualties and causing damage to homes of civilians. The Syrian Army was joined by rebel militants in repelling the attack, who requested help in fighting Al-Nusra through the Reconciliation Center. Earlier this week, several rebel groups operating the southwest decided to side with the Syrian government. While the terrorist attack was foiled on some points, fighting continues in several other locations, according to the Russian military.
https://www.rt.com/newsline/430669-syrian-army-rebels-terrorists/



BEIRUT (AP) — Syria state media and opposition activists say government troops are advancing on rebel-held areas in the country’s southwestern region amid intense clashes in a widening offensive, shattering a U.S-backed truce.

State news agency SANA reported fierce clashes Saturday in the al-Lujat area, a rocky region in the eastern countryside of Daraa. It reported troops advancing from the adjacent Sweida province have seized two villages.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported the government advances, saying they were accompanied by intense shelling and airstrikes.

A local media activist who goes by the name Abu Mahmoud al-Hourani said the clashes were an escalation in a widening offensive, but denied the rebels lost any territory.

Washington warned the offensive in the region bordering Jordan and Israeli-occupied Golan Heights risks widening the conflict.
 
https://www.apnews.com/521eafa2efd44521bdc8d4a9d5a21a5b/Syria-army-widens-offensive-on-rebel-held-areas-in-southwest

It's not over until it's over.

edit-

Ouch!

US tells rebels not to count on its help as Syrian army advances into country’s southwest – report - Published time: 24 Jun, 2018
https://www.rt.com/news/430695-us-no-help-rebels-syria-offensive/

A copy of a message sent by Washington to heads of Free Syrian Army (FSA) groups, which was seen by Reuters, said the US government wanted to make clear that "you should not base your decisions on the assumption or expectation of a military intervention by us."
https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Syrian-rebels-say-Washington-informs-it-wont-intervene-in-southern-Syria-560706
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 08:40:33 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4225 on: June 24, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
More Syria reports - things are changing fast?

At least 11 towns in southern Syrian have voluntarily been brought under the control of government forces, the Russian Center for Reconciliation in Syria said in a statement. Fighters from the Free Syrian Army who operated in these towns joined government forces to battle terrorists from Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS) and Al-Nusra Front. The center said that it is currently providing humanitarian aid for residents of the liberated areas in southern Syria.

................

Only guessing, but I suspect Trump may have or is about to pull the pin on this U.S. escapade in Syria. We'll see. And we'll see what Israel does about it too I assume. I think this area is SW Syria is near Jordan and Golan Heights.

New Iraqi govt may also be more cooperative with Syria and coordinate actions east of the Euphrates in nth Iraq and eastern Syria. What will Turkey do with the Kurds and will Syria eventually take back the 30km land strip they have annexed along the northern border regions?

Also wondering if the "coalition" is still running active sorties against ISIS anywhere in Syria ...  media reports seem to have thinned.
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4226 on: June 25, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »
Syria again 25th JUne

Terrorists attacked settlements in the southern de-escalation zone in Syria, which sided with the government troops, but their offensive was repelled, according to the Russian center for the reconciliation of the opposing sides in Syria. Over the past 24 hours, the militants of the Jabhat al-Nusra attacked the settlements, the military said on Monday.

“The government forces jointly with the formation of the Free Syrian Army repelled the terrorists’ offensive with the support of the Russian Aerospace Forces,” the statement said.

During the attack, up to 70 terrorists were killed, TASS reported, citing the military. It added that there were no casualties among the servicemen of the Syrian Arab Army. Some 12 settlements in the southern de-escalation zone have switched to the side of the Syrian government.

On Monday, the Russian military will ensure security of three UN humanitarian convoys entering the area.
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 472
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 154
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4227 on: June 25, 2018, 10:49:07 PM »
If it wasn't for these meddling russians, the USA would be full of peace and love, and the song of the turtle dove would be heard in the land.

sidd

Nice sneer. Why put so much energy into attacking those of us who are trying to change things and keep our hearts and minds open to the possibility of humanists, reason, and climate action taking a front seat in our government again?

Though any one of a number of events could have changed the outcome, and relieved the world of a monster.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 10:54:24 PM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 472
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 154
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4228 on: June 25, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
Actually, I came here to post this, but the gang here are so single-minded I couldn't resist remarking on it. Moving on ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/25/world/middleeast/syria-chemical-attack-douma.html

Quote
We created a virtual crime scene to investigate this bombing. Explore the scene in augmented reality.

On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4229 on: June 26, 2018, 02:54:57 AM »
Actually, I came here to post this, but the gang here are so single-minded I couldn't resist remarking on it. Moving on ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/25/world/middleeast/syria-chemical-attack-douma.html

Quote
We created a virtual crime scene to investigate this bombing. Explore the scene in augmented reality.

On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

  in augmented reality

Kind of says it all.

And what if the NYTs is wrong, yet again?

Why do you believe them or Bellingcat or Dekker and no body else?

Have read in full even one of the OPCW reports?

And understood the meaning of their own stated limitations and unknowns yet?
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4230 on: June 26, 2018, 05:26:53 AM »
More on Syria - This was always coming

 ‘2 Israeli missiles’ strike near Damascus airport – Syrian state media
Published time: 25 Jun, 2018
https://www.rt.com/news/430868-damascus-airport-missiles-strike/

Would love to see the reaction if HYPOTHETICALLY a dozen Canadian or Mexican or Venezuelan missiles strike La Guardia airport in response the U.S. supporting "terrorists" and "terrorist regimes" carrying out "war crimes" in the middle east while raising the danger of Islamist headchoppers wanting to blow something up in Toronto or Mexico City if they can't get into the USA.

I mean, that would be all good and proper response wouldn't it?  If Israel, the UK, France and the USA can do such things, why not everyone else?
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4231 on: June 26, 2018, 06:53:35 AM »
On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

  in augmented reality

Kind of says it all.

And what if the NYTs is wrong, yet again?

Why do you believe them or Bellingcat or Dekker and no body else?

Have read in full even one of the OPCW reports?

And understood the meaning of their own stated limitations and unknowns yet?

I understand that an OPCW report on the April 7 Douma chemical attack is imminent. Supposed to come out on Tuesday.

Until then, the NYT article that Susan referred to makes a good point :

Quote
The dents in the bomb’s nose, the lattice markings and the rigging that could be seen in the debris are evidence that the bomb was dropped from an aircraft. Because the Syrian military controls the airspace over Douma, it would be almost impossible for the attack to have been staged by opposition fighters who do not have aircraft.

The black corrosion is evidence supporting the charge that chlorine was used in the attack. The corrosion is similar to that which is caused when metal is exposed to chlorine and water.

How do you explain these observations in your alternative theory of the Douma attacks where the attack was staged or never happened ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4232 on: June 26, 2018, 07:28:47 AM »
On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

  in augmented reality

Kind of says it all.

And what if the NYTs is wrong, yet again?

Why do you believe them or Bellingcat or Dekker and no body else?

Have read in full even one of the OPCW reports?

And understood the meaning of their own stated limitations and unknowns yet?

I understand that an OPCW report on the April 7 Douma chemical attack is imminent. Supposed to come out on Tuesday.

Until then, the NYT article that Susan referred to makes a good point :

Quote
The dents in the bomb’s nose, the lattice markings and the rigging that could be seen in the debris are evidence that the bomb was dropped from an aircraft. Because the Syrian military controls the airspace over Douma, it would be almost impossible for the attack to have been staged by opposition fighters who do not have aircraft.

The black corrosion is evidence supporting the charge that chlorine was used in the attack. The corrosion is similar to that which is caused when metal is exposed to chlorine and water.

How do you explain these observations in your alternative theory of the Douma attacks where the attack was staged or never happened ?

I do not have to explain those observations. Even though I already have and you ignored them - as has the NYTs article ignored them and everything else presented all over the place. I am not responsible for other people's lack of wisdom and logic and reasoning powers. It's not my fault and I do not have to convince them of anything. believe what you want - it's not my problem what YOU believe.  I cannot control the unbelievable and unproven assumptions you or the NYTs are willing to accept as "evidence and proof" - omg it could only have been dropped from high in the sky.

Yeah possibly and it could have been dropped off the back of a truck too down a cliff onto concrete roadway and moved there. It could be an old cylinder used in a barrel bomb or CW against head choppers two years ago too. If it is the latter, I seriously don't care how they suffer. Look at the photos all over the internet the white helmets and other head choppers STORE THESE CYLINDERS from years ago now. Why? To reuse them in new claims a another CW attack that never happened.

You have NO EVIDENCE neither does Bellingcat and neither do the OPCW ... all you have is conjecture and assumptions and a lack of hard evidence. There is more than ample evidence the whole thing was staged .... (and that one with two cylinders in the middle of a field) nothing adds up in these reports and the photos or videos or the "reported attack" - NOTHING.

There must be close to hundreds of people now who were THERE who have DENIED any attack took place in Douma - why don't you take their word for it? Children, doctors, nurses, housekeepers, shop keepers, old people, mature adults who were there all deny it happened.

I have not seen ONE person who was in Douma
since the day of the allegation - except for those already seen as part of the early photos and videos claiming it was a CW attack on the day and day after - who has said that there was a CW attack or a helicopter at those two places in Douma as claimed -- or said they saw people dying from chlorione gas, or knew there people in that house or anything close.

NOT ONE WITNESS has come forward to confirm the White Helmets / Head chopper / Rebels version of events

You and many others need to face the truth and admit you'd prefer to believe the word of murdering lying Islamic fanatical psychopaths in ISIS, Al Queda and Al Nusra etc ...... believe MORE than what is actually in the OPCW reports based only on what these head chopper islamist bastards claim ... and the materials they provide to OPCW ... and you believe this crap? Why? 

People show up at "medical places" with "conditions" and people are shown dead on videos who look like they have been dead for DAYS ... and then those dead are tossed into the streets like dead sheep or cow dung - with zero respect - removed the day before the Russian inspectors show up? So what? That is not proof that a CW attack was carried out by the Syrian Army in Douma.

I think you have seriously been had ....  this is little different than people being conned into voting for a Trump ... it's just so ridiculous - its unbelievable so many people are like that.

There is no point arguing with people who are already totally convinced and absolutely certain there is no other possibility, and who believe in the word of Terrorists while ignoring things staring them in the face that simply make no logical sense with the "stories being told".  So believe whatever you want to.

Then please stop demanding I or anyone else has an obligation to prove anything to you. We don't.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 07:39:51 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4233 on: June 26, 2018, 08:03:13 AM »
While you keep ignoring the alternative views that The Khan Shaykhun chemical attack was syrian planes bombing a CW factory run by head chopping islamic terrorists.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/panel-blames-syrian-forces-khan-sheikhoun-attack-171026212414046.html

That is a school teacher level investigation of boys being naughty caught smoking  ..... every boy there was automatically guilty - their parents are told.

But .... members of the fact-finding mission didn't go to the area itself  you call that credible "evidence"? Why on god's earth why?

see page one pt 7.
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/Fact_Finding_Mission/s-1510-2017_e_.pdf

WTF?

Syria admitted they did an aerial attack bomb strike on a site operated by rebels/terrorists, they didn't admit they used Sarin gas in their bombs ....
Quote

Since  the  mandate  of  the  FFM  is  confined  to  establishing  only  the  fact  of the use of chemical weapons, the security risks associated with a deployment to Khan Shaykhun  far outweighed  any  additional  corroboration  of  the  facts that  have  already been  established. 

If it was the Syrian Army using Sarin bombs then why on earth would the rebels / terrorists be a threat to the OPCW going to the scene? Why are the OPCW too scared to go there?

That it is alleged people died from Sarin is not a prima facie case that it was sarin from a Syrian bomb versus sarin from a building that was bombed. Would you believe the words of a fanatical group psychopathic islamic terrorists or Islamist rebels wanting sharia law for Syria? Why? Why? Why?

Quote
Page 3 1.6
The  team  received  limited  information  on  the  dispersal  mechanism  and,  therefore, was unable  to  make firm  conclusions  on  that  specific  matter. However,  the  biomedical specimens, of which the FFM had full custody, provided incontrovertible evidence that people were exposed to sarin or a sarin-like substance.
   

That is NOT evidence that the sarin came from a Syrian army bomb dropped from the air!

Quote

1.7  The  release  that  caused  exposure  was  likely  to  have  been  initiated  in  the  crater in the road, ....

How could they know that? They were not there. They did not visit the site. They did not get to speak to objective witnesses in protective custody from threats of harm by the local terrorists/rebels there if they told a story contradictory to the white helmets and Islamists. 

Did the FBI investigate the Oklahoma bombing from their offices in Washington DC? And if they did would you believe them or think they were a total joke as criminal investigators?

I could go on but it's a waste of time. These OPVW reports have massive holes in their investigations .... no one could ever be found guilty of any crime in any court of law based on this kind of weak "circumstantial evidence" and "biased witness" reports.

Bugsy Malone swore black and blue that Al Capone didn't do it .. he wasn't even there. Besides Al is a smashing good bloke! He'd never do such a horrible thing.

"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4234 on: June 26, 2018, 08:26:23 AM »
Or a couple of minutes after a bomb crater was made in the roadway, a quick thinking head chopper jumped into their Toyota Hiace Utility rushed to the scene tossing an egg cup full of sarin liquid into the crater and drove away unseen in the dark of night at 3 am in the morning.

To some this sounds not only implausible but impossible.

Yet it also perfectly fits the evidence held by the OPCW to a 'T'




"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4235 on: June 26, 2018, 08:55:41 AM »
Quote
The dents in the bomb’s nose, the lattice markings and the rigging that could be seen in the debris are evidence that the bomb was dropped from an aircraft. Because the Syrian military controls the airspace over Douma, it would be almost impossible for the attack to have been staged by opposition fighters who do not have aircraft.

The black corrosion is evidence supporting the charge that chlorine was used in the attack. The corrosion is similar to that which is caused when metal is exposed to chlorine and water.

How do you explain these observations in your alternative theory of the Douma attacks where the attack was staged or never happened ?

I do not have to explain those observations.

Yes, you do have to explain those observations, if you want your theory (that it was staged, or never happened) to be taken seriously.

Quote
Even though I already have and you ignored them - as has the NYTs article ignored them and everything else presented all over the place.

I did not ignore your response.
You posted this alternative theory here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg154616.html#msg154616

1) The cylinder was planted on the patio before the 7th of april or on the night.
2) The cylinder was partly full with gas, and not necessarily chlorine.
3) There was a 'headchopper' on the patio when the video was taken.
4) Using a spanner he removed the tap/regulator, called down to the guys below and said "Hey ok, start videoing, the tank has frosting on it it now! Quick! Hurry up! Allahu Akbar my brothers!"
5) OR the tap was opened first until it was empty and then he used a spanner to remove the tap without the pressure in the tank.
6) The dead bodies were already dead for a day or several days before the 7th april.
7) They planted the bodies at the scene (not in the basement) as shown in the video.
8) Several minutes before the video was taken someone went around and sprayed white foam into the noses and mouths of some of the bodies. 

which I did NOT ignore : I mentioned that it raises more questions than it answers :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg154616.html#msg154616

- Where did they get the cylinder from, and how did it get damaged ? Did the rebels toss it from high altitude first ? Or did they use a cylinder from one of Assad's previous chlorine attacks on his own people ?
- Which 'gas' did they fill this damaged cylinder with, and if it was chlorine, how and where did they produce the chlorine ? If no chlorine, which gas was it that they filled the cylinder with ?
- Who exactly are these dead people, and how exactly did they die ?

Now, are you going to answer these questions, and explain the observations noted by the NYT under your theory, or are you going to continue to deny all the evidence and continue assert that the attack was staged without providing ANY evidence for that theory ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4236 on: June 26, 2018, 09:25:15 AM »
Yes, you do have to explain those observations, if you want your theory (that it was staged, or never happened) to be taken seriously.

No I do not have to explain anything. I also do not care in the least if you or anyone else takes what I say "seriously" or not.

And stop accusing me of having a theory when I do not. I do not need a theory to state that the amount of and type of evidence provided by you the OPCW and head choppers is insufficient to believe the Narratives presented by them and you and the NYTs or anyone else.

You can try to guilt trip me and make facile allegations about having to defend "my theory" all you want but it won't change my response. I do not care what you personally think or believe about CW in Syria or myself. (for the thousandth time already)

edit: let me clarify that. This is me talking about me, and not you Rob. I have no motivation or goal to convince anyone about anything. If you disagree with what I say and present OK. If you agree with me, that's OK too. Makes no difference to me either way, really.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:39:11 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4237 on: June 28, 2018, 03:37:45 AM »
 The UK’s proposal to give the global chemical watchdog the right to assign blame has been passed despite deep divisions. Russia warns the move puts the future of the organization, and thus global security, at risk.

The British envoy to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), Peter Wilson, celebrated the outcome of the 82-24 vote on Twitter.

The @OPCW voted through the UK Decision co-sponsored by 30 States that will now allow it not just to say when chemical weapons are used but by whom. An overwhelming majority to restore the taboo against CW 82 voted for 24 against

    It’s passed! Australia proud to cosponsor with @UK_OPCW decision to attribute chemical weapons attacks @OPCW#CSPSS4pic.twitter.com/S7M88J6NpT
    — Amb. Brett Mason (@AmbBrettMason) June 27, 2018

Moscow has repeatedly criticized the OPCW-UN Joint Investigative Mechanism (JIM) for mishandling its probes, cherry-picking evidence and using vague wording in its reports. It also argued that the OPCW experts abused their mandate on several occasions as they conducted their investigations “remotely” and in violation of the core principle of ‘chain of custody’ while relying on evidence provided by biased and unreliable sources.

https://www.rt.com/news/431079-opcw-can-assign-guilt-chemical/

[edit: I lean toward the end paragraph after reading many OPCW reports - there really are large loose-ends in them ]
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:21:41 PM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4238 on: June 28, 2018, 08:42:39 AM »
A 82-24 vote is not indicative of "deep devisions".
It's indicative of Russia and a few friends attempt to let Chemical Weapons use go un-attributed.

Let's get some context :

Last November at the UN, Russia vetoed the renewal of the mandate of the Joint independent Mechanism, the body charged with identifying the perpetrators. The west claimed Russia had used its veto as a permanent member of the security council because the JIM’s reports had shown the Assad regime was repeatedly breaking the weapons convention mainly by using sarin or chlorine on Syrian citizens. The JIM had found the Syrian government responsible for an attack at Khan Sheykhun in 2017 that killed as many as 90 people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/26/uk-on-collision-course-with-russia-over-chemical-weapons-vote

Since Russia vetoed the UN mandate last November, we have seen a flurry of use of chemical weapons. The Skripal attack in the UK comes to mind, but the real use was in Syria. In Eastern Ghouta alone there were at least 4 attacks killing at least 43 people.

Since last November, chemical weapons inspectors working under the auspices of the OPCW were in a curious position. They could send teams to an alleged chemical weapons attack. They could take samples and draw their conclusions. They could determine whether indeed a chemical weapons incident had occurred. But whatever evidence they turned up, they could not point the finger at a particular country or non-state actor as the perpetrator.

That was, of course, a nonsense. It is like having a detective investigate a killing, only to conclude that yes indeed, murder most foul has been committed, but then being unable to identify the likely culprit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44634434

So this ruling by the OPCW, that it can now use evidence to attribute blame for chemical attacks is a good thing.

You wonder why Russia is so opposed to this ruling. If these attacks were staged or a "false-flag" attack as they (and some commenters here on this forum) claim, then they should be happy that the OPCW can now attribute blame.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 08:52:42 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4239 on: June 28, 2018, 09:55:48 AM »
A 82-24 vote is not indicative of "deep devisions".


They could send teams to an alleged chemical weapons attack. They could take samples and draw their conclusions.

In all but a very few cases no OPCW teams went anywhere, fast enough to take any proper samples.

Why do you continue to misrepresent the facts so blatantly all the time, besides your basic extreme anti-Russia bias that is?

I doubt you have ever read a single OPCW report and if you did you most certainly have not understood what they say there and what it means.

As to "deep divisions" well that's plain silly to deny them. That's like saying there are no deep divisions between the republicans and democrats, or the DNC Corp democrats and the Alt-breed trying to win their primaries for 2018.

Meanwhile there are some who have sailed way over the edge of no return (much like the Coyote in the road runner cartoons.)
https://www.rt.com/usa/431139-john-bolton-kremlin-agent/
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 05:05:47 PM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4240 on: June 28, 2018, 02:15:56 PM »
28 Jun, 2018

 The notorious White Helmets have brought chemicals, protective gear and cameras to militant-controlled Idlib in Syria, in an apparent preparation of yet another false-flag attack, locals told the Russian Reconciliation Center.

A convoy of six vehicles, bearing the emblems of the White Helmets, reportedly arrived in the capital of Idlib province over the weekend, the head of the Russian Reconciliation Center, major general Aleksey Tsygankov, told journalists on Wednesday.

READ MORE: White Helmets: A tool for ‘regime change’ in Syria that’s too important to stop funding?

One of the trucks was loaded with missiles and canisters containing unknown substances, as well as protective gear and filming equipment. Local residents reported seeing four persons, wearing hazmat protection gear, filling the warheads with this liquid and some unknown powder. The convoy then reportedly left for the small town of Maarat al-Numaan, south of the city of Idlib. 

"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4241 on: June 29, 2018, 08:12:58 AM »
I'd like to note that since the start of the World Cup, Russia is behaving well.
No civilian airplanes shot down, no chemical attacks in Syria, no ex-spies murdered, no cyber attacks on foreign countries, and no civilians killed in Ukraine.

It would be nice if they can sustain that behavior after the Word Cup is over.

[edit] OK. So they are still bombing hospitals in Syria :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/warplanes-bomb-3-hospitals-in-southern-syria-as-assads-army-presses-offensive/2018/06/27/c3850054-798b-11e8-ac4e-421ef7165923_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0a9b07ecefed

But maybe this is just the Syrian air force, not the Russians this time...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 08:25:33 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4242 on: June 29, 2018, 08:32:33 AM »
While everyone has been busily watching the world cup that sneaky 'Putine' has moved all his nuclear subs offshore the continental US and is ready to pounce. And sent his ground and air forces along the western border ready to invade Norway, the Baltic states, Poland and Ukraine with a rapid blitzkrieg going all the way to London and Paris and Berlin yet again! :) 

Be scared, be very scared. [edit: even better though, chill out and relax.]

and remember the name of the small town of Maarat al-Numaan, south of the city of Idlib.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 02:19:33 PM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Buddy

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3145
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 29
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4243 on: June 29, 2018, 09:58:58 PM »
Wonder why all those Russian's were at Traitor Donnie's inauguration?   It was probably just a coincidence.....   ;)

Starting at 6:19 into the clip below:



Oh.... did you hear that Paul Manafort had received a $10 million dollar loan from Oleg Derapaska in 2010.  The documents that revealed that loan were obtained when Manafort's home and storage areas were raided.  Derepaska is a Russian oligarch with close ties to little Vladi.

What ever happened to "I don't do any business with Russians".....  Hmmmmmmm.....
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4244 on: June 30, 2018, 10:18:58 AM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-russian-foreign-minister-accuses-uk-of-extermination-of-the-evidence-in-skripal-case

e.g. “I think that we are in the post-West world order,” Lavrov told the British Channel 4 in an interview on Friday. “It is a historical epoch, if you want. Certainly, after five or so centuries of domination of the collective West, as it were, it is not very easy to adjust to new realities that there are other powerhouses economically, financially and politically,” he added, pointing to China, India and Brazil.

“NATO bombed Libya, turned Libya into a black hole through which waves of migrants, illegal migrants, rushed to Europe. Now EU is cleaning the broken china for NATO,” Lavrov said.
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4245 on: July 01, 2018, 08:29:54 AM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4246 on: July 01, 2018, 09:11:55 AM »
 Interesting live video interview some may not like to hear - The Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh spoke to RT's Afshin Rattansi in London about his new book and reporting in the United States and how it changed under the Obama administration, Vietnam stories, Syria CW background Intel info and facts, including the first GHouta CW attack was not Syrian Mil Sarin and they know that - how you just don't mix sarin with chlorine and chlorine is a no-nothing non-lethal wmd anyway, as well as the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury, UK (most likely a Russian Mafia op nothing to do with the Russian govt.)

https://www.rt.com/news/431379-white-helmets-propaganda-syria/

"You can't use sarin and chlorine together. But nobody does any homework," he said.

Now ain't that the truth! :)

« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:36:46 AM by ASILurker »
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4247 on: July 01, 2018, 09:13:26 AM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?

Yes "that" Lavrov the Foreign Minister of Russia. Yeah him. 
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3795
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4248 on: July 01, 2018, 02:51:43 PM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?

Yes "that" Lavrov the Foreign Minister of Russia. Yeah him.


Indicative that Lavrov had no prior knowledge of the poisons detected. He obviously was of the opinion that BZ had been present in the sample, rather than having been added later as a control.
His error does far more to clear the Russian Government than any protestation of innocence could have.
Terry

Lurk

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4249 on: July 01, 2018, 03:01:04 PM »
Indeed Terry. Unfortunately, mostly it depends on how people choose to 'frame' information.
Sy's interview worth a lookie here, as well as that behind scenes of budding new democrats trying to get a leg up. It's been an interesting year and we're only half way through it.
"All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel