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ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4200 on: June 14, 2018, 10:05:23 AM »
I presented my evidence here and in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread of cases where Ukrainian civilians were deliberately shelled by Russian forces. And then there is MH17.

Still have not seen evidence of a SINGLE case where the Ukrainian army was to blame for Ukrainian civilian deaths. Just ONE case will do.

Russian trolls talk a lot, but they present no evidence.

You had proven cases where Ukrainian civilians were deliberately shelled by Russian forces backed up with genuine undeniable evidence?

You have not seen nor heard of even ONE case where the Ukrainian army (or the Freelancing Pro-Coup Militias) were to blame for Ukrainian civilian deaths.

Is this your assertion / belief Rob? Really?

Sorry I can't help you with this. Good luck.
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4201 on: June 14, 2018, 04:04:44 PM »
I presented my evidence here and in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread 

Yes, indeed.  I would urge further discussion of Russian in Ukraine be continued in that "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4202 on: June 14, 2018, 07:38:01 PM »
I presented my evidence here and in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread 

Yes, indeed.  I would urge further discussion of Russian in Ukraine be continued in that "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

Why? What or whose discussion/s are being interrupted or derailed here by a few pointers about Ukraine/Russia? Ukraine is patently incidental to this "discussion" (sic) I'm keeping up ok. I see no need for micromanaging this matter at all.   
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4203 on: June 14, 2018, 10:52:53 PM »
Russian trolls talk a lot, but they present no evidence.
+1
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4204 on: June 14, 2018, 11:49:55 PM »
Il faut cultiver notre jardin

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4205 on: June 15, 2018, 02:54:34 AM »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4206 on: June 15, 2018, 03:14:34 AM »
First "red card" issued to Russia, for foul play :


« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 04:10:05 AM by Rob Dekker »

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4207 on: June 15, 2018, 03:23:46 AM »
Russian trolls talk a lot .....

It's seems patently obvious after years of posts here by Rob on this topic (and likely is to many many people besides me) that he does not realize how stupid and immature that comment truly is. This goes for Martin's +1 comment too. Logical fallacies, absolute certainty, and emotions running wild is all they have to say on these threads. It's a content free zone here sometimes. A pity.

Maybe was merely an attempt at cracking a joke but how would one know? :)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:37:41 AM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4208 on: June 15, 2018, 03:27:11 AM »
@Neven. I wanted to look at that, as I used to watch Cenk Uygur, who opens the program. At first it looked good. But starting around minute 16 it goes seriously off the rails. Anyone who hasn't noticed that Trump is in thrall to Putin (probably financially and other forms of blackmail (and I dismiss absolutely the clickbait "pee tape" nonsense), money laundering, Russian mob, the evidence is overwhelming) hasn't been paying attention. He has resisted when he could, and continues to do so. [It was Republicans who voted for sanctions; Trump refused to enforce them for months.] The North Korean "summit" was just the most recent iteration of that process.

Those kids are attractive but obsessively seeking out sources that confirm one's bias does not at all convey the broad spectrum of events that are - to keep this as direct as possible, I speak for myself - in my face (and other Americans' faces) every day. Right now we have kids being separated from their parents at the border, dismantling environmental protections at speed,  subsidizing coal, encouragement of white supremacism that has increased hate crimes all over the country, encouragement of violence and rage, etc. Have a look: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-negotiating-style-is-pure-art-of-the-moron*

Their analysis is a bit off the wall, and their characterization of people like me is off base.

This is just my opinion, but I pay a lot of attention: it's my world, and I am one of the many battered Americans.

As for Bolton, he's a monster. Democrats are not hawks, and those claims on this video is over the top.

This guy is an ideologue. I don't know how these youngsters think they are going to overcome our Hitler-in-waiting if they get rid of liberals and Democrats. They seem to think that if they get into huddles and tell each other how wrong we are somehow the real monsters will fold up and go away. Our civil liberties, our clean water, our infrastructure, our courts, our health care, our social safety net, the freedom of the press, it is all being cut away. Somehow we are the villains?!!

Quote
*Great work taking direction from the Home Office in Moscow; you spent more time at the G7 summit doing Vladimir Putin’s bidding than you did strengthening the ties between the United States and our closest allies.

Russia, Iran, Syria, and other bad actors want to thank you, Mr. President. You sent the clearest of signals that sanctions regimes, inspections, and verified denuclearization are no longer relevant in our brave new era of nationalist populist strongmen and Michael Bay knockoff videos.

Evidently, all the bad guys have to do is kiss your ample ass long enough and shower you with enough superficial praise and they can play you like the trifling intellectual lightweight you most certainly are. So, thank you for that reminder.

Ever wonder what the consequences of legitimizing a nuclear-armed madman who has used chemical weapons on his own family, starved his people, and engaged in systematic mass murder to retain power might be? Congratulations! You’re about to find out. Us too.

Thank you, Mr. President, for reminding us that Kim Jong Un is talented. I couldn’t agree more. He’s talented at killing his uncles, half-brothers, cousins, and countrymen with poison, anti-aircraft guns, chemical weapons, and flamethrowers. He’s talented at starving his people, systematically reducing their life expectancy, health, and even height because of the chronic malnutrition his evil policies entail. He’s talented like his father and grandfather before him at rooking Western leaders. They’re talented at proposing deals they never had the slightest intention of keeping.

Heckuva job, Mr. President. No matter what a weapons-grade dumpster fire this week created, you’re safe from congressional oversight, but you know that by now. Nothing you do matters to this Congress. No matter what damage you inflict on our economy, our alliances, trade, our stature in the world, our role as an exemplar of democratic values, our ability to serve as an honest broker in the international community, and our security, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell will lay supine before you.

Their evident, constant terror at running afoul of your volcanic temper, lunatic followers, and media cheer squad mutes their tongues and stays their hands even when they should know better. They should fear a world where America is isolated, mistrusted, and weaker economically, morally, and politically. They should worry the acid drip of your rhetorical and moral poison reduces American power and influence.

Instead, they fear their own president, hiding behind furrowed brows and elliptical, mealymouthed expressions of grave concern.

So congratulations, Mr. President. You spent the week deliberately wrecking American alliances and leadership, allied yourself with one of the most egregious enemies of freedom in the world, and abandoned the shared values of our friends like Canada, France, the United Kingdom, Japan, and Germany.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 06:07:28 AM by Susan Anderson »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4209 on: June 15, 2018, 04:56:37 AM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4210 on: June 15, 2018, 06:07:00 AM »
But starting around minute 16 it goes seriously off the rails.

Did you keep watching and considering the issues being raised from 20 mins to 45 minutes? If you did not then I think you may have done a disservice to yourself. Taken as a whole it is a very balanced dialogue which touches on and reminds viewers of many known facts and competing memes. Those things can be cross checked and verified independently.
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4211 on: June 15, 2018, 06:09:17 AM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

"who resorts [to] personal smearing ... and conspiracy theories "
is something you'd never stoop to doing, hey Rob? :)
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4212 on: June 15, 2018, 06:12:41 AM »
@ASILurker: you all keep forgetting I live here, and our news is in my face every day. Today was the Trump Foundation lawsuit and the Inspector General report, along with separating kids from their parents on purpose at the border, and AG Sessions using the Bible to justify doing so. He thinks God elected Trump.

I've got all the details; I'd be better off if I were not a news junkie. But I am hoping to do my little bit to change our government away from monsters back to people who care about other people and about our earth.

(yes, I know, OT, but claims from outside do tend to ignore the outrageousness, day by day, month by month, of living under a budding Hitler. I am, as you claim, a bit privileged, but even in Boston hate crimes are on the rise.)

I had forgotten this: Web of elite Russians met with NRA execs during 2016 campaign https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article212756749.html

My news tonight included Sarah Sanders, press secretary, quoting AG Jeff Sessions about how biblical it is to enforce the law (by separating children from  parents).

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4213 on: June 15, 2018, 07:30:37 AM »
"who resorts [to] personal smearing ... and conspiracy theories "[/i] is something you'd never stoop to doing, hey Rob? :)

Lurker, why not STOP the ad hominums, and come to the right side of history ?
Just drop your support of murderous dictators, and go with reason and evidence instead..
Would be so refreshing, for this forum, for humanity and justice and for your own peace of mind as well.

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4214 on: June 15, 2018, 07:40:04 AM »
That's so brutal a criticism :)
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4215 on: June 15, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »
Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44471985
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/13/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-sarin-chlorine-use-syria/

They cannot assign blame (Russia vetoed a UN proposition to do so).
However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina.

Also, since the Syrian government is the only one to be known to made Sarin, attribution is fairly well determined.

Also Bellingcat gave an excellent overview of all of the different chemical weapon systems that the Syrian government has used over the years :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/14/chemical-munitions-used-syrian-government-2012-2018/

Now the wait is for the OPCW to release its findings for the Douma attacks.
Here is an anticipation for what to look out for in that upcoming report :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/30/watch-upcoming-opcw-ffm-report-douma-chemical-attack/

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4216 on: June 15, 2018, 08:36:50 AM »
More spin

Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

Original source absent Spin, is here:
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-confirms-use-of-sarin-and-chlorine-in-ltamenah-syria-on-24-and-25-march-2017/


Quote
"However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina Ltamenah."

Really? No, that's false.

The ref link goes to an OCT 2017 BBC news media report which is NOT recent and not a genuine CW REPORT. Spin, spin, spin it anyway you can.

Quote
Also, since the Syrian government is the only one to be known to made Sarin, attribution is fairly well determined.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ...... it's a war zone, a civil war, and people lie while people who might tell the truth are killed. Lovers of Sharia law Islamist head chopping terrorists unite!

................

From the original source document: https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1636-2018_e_.pdf

1.6 Whilst  the  collection  of  facts  relating  to  the  25  and  30  March  (S/1548/2017,  dated  2  November 2017) incidents was ongoing, the team also identified witnesses in relation
to the alleged incident on 24 March 2017, in  Ltamenah. The interview process for the
24 March 2017 incident started at the end of July 2017
+90 days later

1.7 Once the impact locations of the incident  on 24 March 2017 were determined during
the  interviews
,  the  FFM  coordinated the  sample  collection from  these  locations  with  an NGO.   +90 days later

1.8 The FFM concluded that sarin was very likely used as a chemical weapon in the south
of Ltamenah on 24 March 2017. (NOT definitely used)

......................


1.10
The  FFM  determined  that  chlorine  was  released  from  cylinders  through  mechanical 
impact. The FFM concluded that chlorine was very likely used as a chemical weapon
at Ltamenah Hospital and the surrounding area on 25 March 2017. 

.......................

DEPLOYMENT DETAILS AND CHRONOLOGY

As  with  all  the  allegations  and  incidents  referenced  in  previous  reports of the FFM (see paragraph 3.4 above), various constraints, mainly related to security, have not enabled immediate access to sites by the FFM.

4.6
Given  that  those  constraints  prevented  a  team  deployment  to  the  location  of  the alleged  incident,  the  FFM  determined  that  the  principal  methods  for  collecting  and  evaluating  the  credibility  of  information  include the  following:
 
examination  of  existing reports; assessment and corroboration of background information; conduct of interviews   with   relevant   medical   care   providers,   alleged   casualties,   and   other  individuals  linked  to  the  reported  incident; review  of  documentation  and  records  provided  by  interviewees;  analysis  of  the  signs  and  symptoms  of  casualties  as  reported  by  interviewees;  and  receipt  of environmental  samples,  for  subsequent analysis.

4.7
The  FFM  team  identified  relevant  witnesses through  face-to-face  interviews  or 
teleconference calls, open-source research, medical records provided to the team, and
through interaction with NGOs. Access to  witnesses was coordinated with NGOs

In addition to liaising with representatives of several NGOs, including but not limited to  the  Same  (CVDCS) and  the  Syrian  Civil  Defence  (SCD),  also  known  as  White  Helmets, 

................

Great NGOs like the White Helmet terrorist group.

No visit to the site.
No collection of onsite evidence by OPCW staff.
no contact with witness until after 90 days
No collection of samples arranged until after 90 days
Collection and forwarding of samples done by NGO staffers +90-120 days after

Those witnesses arranged and samples done by NGOs/White Helmets

No professional Police Investigative level witness questioning.
No access to other non-NGO authorized witnesses
No lie detector testing regime used on witnesses
No access to Syrian Army witnesses or commanders
No access to SAR helicopter pilots and soldiers
No access to any Russian military present

Much spin spin spin ... so much spin I feel like I am locked inside a washing machine here.

There are FAR too many gullible people who don’t take the time to look harder for the Truth. And FAR too many people have been persuaded that if enough of the "right" kind of people say it often enough it must be true. As Mark Twain said:

“It’s easier to con someone, than it is to convince him he has already been conned.

Please understand I am not telling other people what to think or what they should believe. I am showing, by way of examples, how to do your own media research and how to think better with more knowledge and objectivity than otherwise might be the case (or at least offering an opportunity to do so.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:47:28 AM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4217 on: June 15, 2018, 08:52:06 AM »
More spin

Some developments regarding chemical attacks in Syria :

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day.

Original source absent Spin, is here:
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-confirms-use-of-sarin-and-chlorine-in-ltamenah-syria-on-24-and-25-march-2017/


From that report :

Quote
THE HAGUE, Netherlands —13 June 2018—The Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), confirmed in a report released today that sarin was very likely used as a chemical weapon in the south of Ltamenah, Syrian Arab Republic, on 24 March 2017.  The FFM also concluded that chlorine was very likely used as a chemical weapon at Ltamenah Hospital and the surrounding area on 25 March 2017.

So BBC's summary that "The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concluded Sarin was used as a weapon in the south of rebel-held Latamina on 24 March 2017, and chlorine at its hospital the next day." is spot on.

What exactly is your problem with the BBC report here ?

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4218 on: June 15, 2018, 09:12:17 AM »
Quote
"However, a joint UN-OPCW mission that recently ended said it was confident that government forces used Sarin in an attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun just days after the incidents in nearby Latamina Ltamenah."

Really? No, that's false.

The ref link goes to an OCT 2017 BBC news media report which is NOT recent and not a genuine CW REPORT. Spin, spin, spin it anyway you can.

Here is the OPCW report :
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-khan-shaykhun-on-4-april-2017/
which states quite clearly that Sarin was used at Khan Shaykhun :
Quote
In a report released by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the OPCW Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) confirmed that people were exposed to sarin, a chemical weapon, on 4 April 2017 in the Khan Shaykhun area, Idlib Province in the Syrian Arab Republic.

And here is the UN report :
http://undocs.org/S/2017/904
which states quite uncontroversially that Syrian government is responsible for these attacks :
Quote
On the basis of the foregoing, the Leadership Panel is confident that the Syrian Arab
Republic is responsible for the release of sarin at Khan Shaykhun on 4 April 2017.

Exactly what is "false" about any of these reports ?

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4219 on: June 15, 2018, 09:25:21 AM »
Exactly what is "false" about any of these reports ?

Repeating myself is a waste of everyone's time.
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4220 on: June 15, 2018, 09:28:13 AM »
And the UN mission "recently ended" because Russia vetoed a continuation of its mandate :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons/russia-casts-10th-u-n-veto-on-syria-action-blocking-inquiry-renewal-idUSKBN1DG31I

Quote
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia on Thursday cast its 10th veto of United Nations Security Council action on Syria since the war began in 2011, blocking a U.S.-drafted resolution to renew an international inquiry into who is to blame for chemical weapons attacks in Syria.

Seriously, Lurker. It is time to drop your support for murderous dictators, and join the free world where reason and evidence and rational thought prevails.

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4221 on: June 15, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
And the UN mission "recently ended" because Russia vetoed a continuation of its mandate :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons/russia-casts-10th-u-n-veto-on-syria-action-blocking-inquiry-renewal-idUSKBN1DG31I

Quote
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia on Thursday cast its 10th veto of United Nations Security Council action on Syria since the war began in 2011, blocking a U.S.-drafted resolution to renew an international inquiry into who is to blame for chemical weapons attacks in Syria.

Seriously, Lurker. It is time to drop your support for murderous dictators, and join the free world where reason and evidence and rational thought prevails.

Did I not only 'RECENTLY' ask

"who resorts [to] personal smearing ... and conspiracy theories " is something you'd never stoop to doing, hey Rob? :)

Trumps summit was recent. 2017 isn't.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:32:20 PM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4222 on: June 15, 2018, 05:49:59 PM »
Breaking news: Manafort is going to jail for witness tampering.

Jim Pettit

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4223 on: June 15, 2018, 06:21:35 PM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

Meh. Mate's a bit of a one-trick pony. His last 16 months of articles for The Nation:

2/2/2017: Stop With the Conspiracy Theories—Trump Is Bad Enough
10/6/2017: Russiagate Is More Fiction Than Fact
11/2/2017: Why the Papadopoulos Plea Isn’t a Smoking Gun
11/16/2017: RT Was Forced to Register as a Foreign Agent
12/5/2017: The Trump Team Definitely Colluded With a Foreign Power—Just Not the One You Think
12/21/2017: More Media Malpractice in Russiagate
2/22/2018: What We’ve Learned in Year 1 of Russiagate
4/11/2018: The Get-Tough-on-Russia Consensus Is Escalating the Crisis in Syria
5/3/2018: Don’t Count on Russiagate to Bring Trump Down
6/13/2018: The Mueller Indictments Still Don’t Add Up to Collusion

IOW, his stance on "Russiagate" has not wavered one bit even as more and more evidence has come to light, and indictments and pleas have piled up. In fact, his thinking on the matter neatly mirrors Trump's own public statements: 1) There was no contact with the Russians. 2) Okay, there was contact, but no collusion was involved. 3) Okay, there was collusion, but it wasn't the bad kind. 4) Okay, it was bad collusion, but collusion isn't illegal, so so what? 5) Even if the collusion was illegal, it wasn't Trump, but Manafort, Michael Cohen, Jared, Donald, Jr., and other people he barely ever met and doesn't really know. 6) Okay, so he really does have long histories with those people; what's wrong with cozying up to Putin? 7) Look! Hillary's emails!!!

FWIW, Mate's pieces at The Intercept and elsewhere show pretty much the same mindset. We get it: Mate thinks there's nothing there. But unfortunately for him--and even more so for Mueller--he's very likely wrong.

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4224 on: June 15, 2018, 07:08:41 PM »
But starting around minute 16 it goes seriously off the rails.

Did you keep watching and considering the issues being raised from 20 mins to 45 minutes? If you did not then I think you may have done a disservice to yourself. Taken as a whole it is a very balanced dialogue which touches on and reminds viewers of many known facts and competing memes. Those things can be cross checked and verified independently.

I did in fact listen almost to the end, and found the first 16 minutes agreeable. But as the caricatures grew, and the information contradicted what I know in favor of clubbing together to accuse democrats and liberals, I began to find these appealing young people out of touch and eager to confirm their bias. They did include a number of caveats, but it was clear they were on a mission. I have an excellent memory and have been spending way too much time following all the strands of these developments.

Reagan accelerated the rot (and Thatcher) and we've been in trouble ever since. Bill Clinton - whose sleaze factor has always been a problem - was popular because he provided a corrective, in spite of unified opposition that survives to this day. He compromised because he had to, and to a sector of the progressive part of this argument, no compromise is acceptable, they'd rather burn the house down, which is what is happening, than face the real enemies.

There are real enemies about. Now it is time to bring together good people and start looking for the best in ourselves and not the worst. The Parkland youngsters are showing us the way, going around the country, convening town halls and helping voters register.

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4225 on: June 16, 2018, 02:27:34 AM »
Thanks for the nice reply. I hear you. wish to make a suggestion about one aspect below


I did in fact listen almost to the end, and found the first 16 minutes agreeable. But as the caricatures grew, and the information contradicted what I know in favor of clubbing together to accuse democrats and liberals, I began to find these appealing young people out of touch and eager to confirm their bias. They did include a number of caveats, but it was clear they were on a mission.


I think I understand the 'defensiveness' and where it comes from. Have you considered taking your comments directly to the source and telling them what you think and why? Maybe they might learn something - like how to 'temper' their words so they don't inadvertently undermine their own stated self-identification as "progressive libel lefties" and anti-what trump stands for?

for example, email them directly where they 'work' from, the intercept, TYT, or their Youtube channel and ask them to consider what you say and think about it, and ask them if they could do a live / written public response to your points and address them openly and seriously?

You could say to them "this is what I heard you saying - is that what you really think/believe? Because you Susan (and all your like minded "progressive libel lefties" you know) find it offensive/wrong misguided (or whatever)" - and be specific by quoting exactly their own words and phrases. Try to avoid broad brushed generalities and emotive characterizations (iow do as I say, don't do as I sometimes do :) ).

I think you have the skills to communicate clearly what you think to others. Maybe these folks would listen and consider it seriously coming from you personally and directly? They have a public platform so if you can influence their style or thinking (even a little) it may have a sustained long term effect. Win-Win.

Not saying you "should" do this nor that what you are doing is not good enough or not useful. For it is! fwiw my approach when I'm hearing bs coming out of the mouth of my politicians (but much less often media personalities) is to write directly to them about I think about that. Hoping maybe how I say something might be a key to unlock their minds and see what everyone else complaining about to them have a good point on an issue. Maybe be the Straw that broke the camels back kind of thing.

I believe the same about Trumps supporters. Railing against Trump personally and the agencies who were carrying such messages before he came along are less likely to change their entrenched views (and motivations) - which is why engaging in a constructive manner with the people who maybe blindly swallowed all the rhetoric and bought into it (without really thinking or being fully informed of all relevant information) - and who now keep hearing their preferred  media promoters to repeat it "as if it's all true" are the ones to engage with and present a more honest picture of reality. Yes, easier said than done. Making comments on news media / social forums like the guardian doesn't seem to work at all - usually it only makes it worse.

So how to communicate to this group of Americans directly (those who may be more open to a real conversation about the issues) is a very difficult thing today.

Accepting this effort is also more likely than not going to be a waste of time - therefore pick your battles - and let the rest go. (I try ... )

« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 02:47:23 AM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4226 on: June 16, 2018, 06:06:19 AM »
@Neven, I have to say that I don't agree with all of Aaron Mate's opinions, but I like his style.
He has his facts straight and makes good arguments.

A definitive improvement over Jimmy Dore, who resorts in personal smearing and promotes right-wing conspiracy theories far too often.

Meh. Mate's a bit of a one-trick pony. His last 16 months of articles for The Nation:

2/2/2017: Stop With the Conspiracy Theories—Trump Is Bad Enough
10/6/2017: Russiagate Is More Fiction Than Fact
11/2/2017: Why the Papadopoulos Plea Isn’t a Smoking Gun
11/16/2017: RT Was Forced to Register as a Foreign Agent
12/5/2017: The Trump Team Definitely Colluded With a Foreign Power—Just Not the One You Think
12/21/2017: More Media Malpractice in Russiagate
2/22/2018: What We’ve Learned in Year 1 of Russiagate
4/11/2018: The Get-Tough-on-Russia Consensus Is Escalating the Crisis in Syria
5/3/2018: Don’t Count on Russiagate to Bring Trump Down
6/13/2018: The Mueller Indictments Still Don’t Add Up to Collusion

IOW, his stance on "Russiagate" has not wavered one bit even as more and more evidence has come to light, and indictments and pleas have piled up. In fact, his thinking on the matter neatly mirrors Trump's own public statements: 1) There was no contact with the Russians. 2) Okay, there was contact, but no collusion was involved. 3) Okay, there was collusion, but it wasn't the bad kind. 4) Okay, it was bad collusion, but collusion isn't illegal, so so what? 5) Even if the collusion was illegal, it wasn't Trump, but Manafort, Michael Cohen, Jared, Donald, Jr., and other people he barely ever met and doesn't really know. 6) Okay, so he really does have long histories with those people; what's wrong with cozying up to Putin? 7) Look! Hillary's emails!!!

FWIW, Mate's pieces at The Intercept and elsewhere show pretty much the same mindset. We get it: Mate thinks there's nothing there. But unfortunately for him--and even more so for Mueller--he's very likely wrong.

Thanks for that overview, Jim.

I read some of these articles, and he indeed seems to follow the Trump-narrative pretty closely. But even more than pro-Trump, Mate seems to be pro-Russia.

Mate may be another example of far-left meeting far-right, although I still think Mate is many steps up from Dore, who is pretty much parroting right-wingers like Alex Jones and Hannity.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 08:23:41 AM by Rob Dekker »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4227 on: June 16, 2018, 06:43:12 AM »
Looks like Russia's new "USA Really" project is off to a rocky start :



https://codastory.com/disinformation-crisis/information-war/russian-troll-or-clumsy-publicity-hound?utm_campaign=social&utm_source=twitter

Russian Troll or Clumsy Publicity Hound?
A Russian media executive says he’s come to Washington to test the limits of American freedom

Quote
Alexander Malkevich might be the new face of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s attempt to subvert American democracy. Or he might be a bumbling provocateur.

Malkevich, a Russian media executive with ties to the Kremlin, arrived in Washington this week to launch USA Really, an English-language news site that spreads the kind of disinformation and discord attributed to Russian trolls in a high-profile indictment earlier this year.

It has not been a soft landing.

First, WeWork ejected him from the co-working space he’d rented across the street from the White House — just two hours after he entered the building.

Then, his plan to stage a rally in front of the White House to mark the website’s launch was dashed because he sent his permit request to the wrong office.


It gets worse from there on...

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4228 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:13 AM »
Looks like Russia's new "USA Really" project is off to a rocky start :

"...  it will focus on promoting information and problems that are hushed up by major American publications."

Fertile fields galore. :)
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4229 on: June 16, 2018, 10:20:15 AM »
Mate thinks there's nothing there.

I admit I have not read every word or seen Mr. Mate in every interview he's done the last months. But from those things I have seen my take message of what "Mate thinks" is that there is a lot of talk and very little hard known evidence - about the core issue that being Russian Govt directed interference in the elections or collusion with the Trump campaign to interfere to his benefit.

He is not so much saying there is nothing there, but there is very little known (and in the public domain or via independent research) for certain that would amount to proving/answering the key question. He doesn't pretend he knows anything from inside the Investigation (that may be being withheld and not leaked yet) and so he restricts himself to what's known at the time - when he has written about it. 

Seems to me his general theme has been of caution and not to rush to judgement based solely on beliefs, opinions, unproven allegations, and making connections that may not in fact amount to anything "criminal" or substantial proof. "circumstantial coincidences" alone is not real evidence. Connecting people who know each other is not the same as evidence of a conspiracy going on or having anything to do with the elections.

Seems to me recently anyone with a Russian name has connections with the Kremlin ... yet I never see any proof for these endless claims. Clapper has connections  with the White House, Congress, the CIA, the FBI and the intelligence services all over the USA ..... but he is never presented to the public like that ..... "well known former CIA intelligence chief with military industrial ties and 'deep state' connections to the Democrat Party and Congressional aides Director Mr  Clapper said today the USA is as pure as snow."

He sounds quite skeptical (as a scientist doing research would be) and quite logical in his approach. He doesn't seem to have missed any "allegation" or "belief" that been floated thus far. iow he's rational and cautious about all the "claims being thrown around willy nilly across all media and by loud-mouthed politicians and related "Players" from all sides of the political spectrum.

 Besides the only thing that matters is:

Does Mueller have any evidence of interference and collusion back to Putin and the Russian govt,

and if so does he have enough evidence to bring charges,

and if so will he win the case/s and the Court of Appeals and in the SCOTUS?

That's the only questions that count - the rest is fluff, bluff and bluster -  no matter who is saying it.

Once upon a time being rational and skeptical of untested unproven claims, allegations, opinions, beliefs and theories backed up by a lack of hard evidence used to be a GOOD THING.

We all need better mates! Not less. :)

[ PS and shouldn't this discussion topic be in the Mueller investigation thread? Not that I care myself. I'm good. ]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 10:33:30 AM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4230 on: June 17, 2018, 09:34:36 PM »
Russia dumping Treasuries, reduces holdings by half.

"Russia proceeded to sell $47.4 billion out of the $96.1 billion the country had in US treasury bonds in March"

https://www.rt.com/business/429931-russia-sells-us-treasuries/

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4231 on: June 17, 2018, 10:54:03 PM »
Russia dumping Treasuries, reduces holdings by half.

"Russia proceeded to sell $47.4 billion out of the $96.1 billion the country had in US treasury bonds in March"

https://www.rt.com/business/429931-russia-sells-us-treasuries/

sidd
This is possibly a reaction to Trump's aluminum dumping tariff.

https://tomluongo.me/2018/06/16/trump-attacks-aluminum-russia-debt/

The continued purchase of Russian titanium as well as Russian rocket engines by the American government may indicate to European nationals some level of hypocrisy in the American position.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-17/despite-new-tough-sanctions-us-takes-delivery-russian-rocket-engines

Terry

sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4232 on: June 18, 2018, 10:04:27 PM »
Ooo, look another russian:

" ... the man who approached Stone is actually a Russian national ... "

But not just any Russian:  FBI informant to boot

" he had provided information to the FBI for 17 years"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-associate-roger-stone-reveals-new-contact-with-russian-national-during-2016-campaign/2018/06/17/4a8123c8-6fd0-11e8-bd50-b80389a4e569_story.html

So that makes two agents who approached the Trump campaign. Halper from CIA and Greenberg from FBI. Mifsud looks like UK or russian agent. Dearlove, Steele, Skripal, Miller all MI6. Page and Sater, FBI informants.

At this point it seems easier to list the ones that ain't spooks than the ones who are.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4233 on: June 19, 2018, 10:30:41 AM »
Another red card for Russia, for foul play. This time in Syria :



Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4234 on: June 19, 2018, 10:41:51 AM »
Ooo, look another russian:

From your article :

Quote
Stone and Caputo’s interactions with Greenberg mean that at least 11 Trump associates or campaign officials have acknowledged interactions with a Russian during the election season or presidential transition. Those interactions have become public in the year and a half since a Trump spokeswoman said no one associated with the campaign had communications with Russians or other foreign entities.


sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4235 on: June 21, 2018, 12:03:17 AM »
Russians "sow discord among Americans "

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russian-trolls-meddling-us-immigration-controversy-top-gop/story?id=56032588

If it wasn't for these meddling russians, the USA would be full of peace and love, and the song of the turtle dove would be heard in the land.

sidd

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4236 on: June 23, 2018, 01:26:17 PM »
Mosul & Aleppo: What MSM didn’t tell you happened after liberation of 2 cities (PHOTOS)

 Aleppo and Mosul, cities that endured some of the worst urban warfare in the 21st century, have quite different liberation stories, but they are alike in the way media treated them with oblivion once the post-war struggle began.

Both the Syrian city of Aleppo and Iraq’s Mosul found themselves gripped in fierce battles in late 2016. Syrian forces were trying to liberate the eastern part of Aleppo from militant groups to end the mortar shelling, which was killing civilians in the western half, and to begin rebuilding the war-ravaged districts of the city. An ambitious Russia-backed effort to evacuate civilians from the warzone set up humanitarian corridors.

It was the US-backed Iraqi battle for Mosul, however, that captured the Western media’s favor as a heroic struggle to liberate civilians from Islamic State (IS, ISIS/ISIL), while the war in Aleppo was presented in a markedly different light.

The chaotic battle for Mosul, where IS terrorists ruthlessly used civilians as human shields amid relentless US-led coalition bombing, was no less of a tragic story of suffering, but the absence of evacuations for civilians made the city warfare particularly extreme. When it came to coverage, however, the MSM mostly picked military advances while the toll of the fighting was covered in a hushed and infrequent manner.



But as the battle ended and the city was pronounced liberated from IS, the story of Mosul’s struggles was seemingly cut short in the media once and for all. But what happened next?

The battle for Aleppo ended in the very end of 2016, and the city has been vigorously striving to get back to peaceful life ever since. The cafés have reopened, the World Cup is broadcasted, and people are celebrating holidays – of several different religions – in peace.
https://www.rt.com/news/430616-aleppo-mosul-liberation-aftermath/

“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein

ASILurker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4237 on: Today at 06:49:08 AM »
Published time: 23 Jun, 2018
Syrian troops came under massive attack in the southwest of the country overnight, the Russian Reconciliation Center said on Saturday. Around 1,000 terrorists from Al-Nusra Front (currently known as Jabhat Fateh al-Sham) attacked positions of the 9th tank division, inflicting casualties and causing damage to homes of civilians. The Syrian Army was joined by rebel militants in repelling the attack, who requested help in fighting Al-Nusra through the Reconciliation Center. Earlier this week, several rebel groups operating the southwest decided to side with the Syrian government. While the terrorist attack was foiled on some points, fighting continues in several other locations, according to the Russian military.
https://www.rt.com/newsline/430669-syrian-army-rebels-terrorists/



BEIRUT (AP) — Syria state media and opposition activists say government troops are advancing on rebel-held areas in the country’s southwestern region amid intense clashes in a widening offensive, shattering a U.S-backed truce.

State news agency SANA reported fierce clashes Saturday in the al-Lujat area, a rocky region in the eastern countryside of Daraa. It reported troops advancing from the adjacent Sweida province have seized two villages.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported the government advances, saying they were accompanied by intense shelling and airstrikes.

A local media activist who goes by the name Abu Mahmoud al-Hourani said the clashes were an escalation in a widening offensive, but denied the rebels lost any territory.

Washington warned the offensive in the region bordering Jordan and Israeli-occupied Golan Heights risks widening the conflict.
 
https://www.apnews.com/521eafa2efd44521bdc8d4a9d5a21a5b/Syria-army-widens-offensive-on-rebel-held-areas-in-southwest

It's not over until it's over.

edit-

Ouch!

US tells rebels not to count on its help as Syrian army advances into country’s southwest – report - Published time: 24 Jun, 2018
https://www.rt.com/news/430695-us-no-help-rebels-syria-offensive/

A copy of a message sent by Washington to heads of Free Syrian Army (FSA) groups, which was seen by Reuters, said the US government wanted to make clear that "you should not base your decisions on the assumption or expectation of a military intervention by us."
https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Syrian-rebels-say-Washington-informs-it-wont-intervene-in-southern-Syria-560706
« Last Edit: Today at 08:40:33 AM by ASILurker »
“Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.” Albert Einstein