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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4150 on: June 25, 2018, 10:49:07 PM »
If it wasn't for these meddling russians, the USA would be full of peace and love, and the song of the turtle dove would be heard in the land.

sidd

Nice sneer. Why put so much energy into attacking those of us who are trying to change things and keep our hearts and minds open to the possibility of humanists, reason, and climate action taking a front seat in our government again?

Though any one of a number of events could have changed the outcome, and relieved the world of a monster.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 10:54:24 PM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4151 on: June 25, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
Actually, I came here to post this, but the gang here are so single-minded I couldn't resist remarking on it. Moving on ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/25/world/middleeast/syria-chemical-attack-douma.html

Quote
We created a virtual crime scene to investigate this bombing. Explore the scene in augmented reality.

On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4152 on: June 26, 2018, 06:53:35 AM »
On April 7, a chemical bomb was dropped onto the balcony of a multistory building in Douma, a neighborhood near Damascus, Syria. At least 34 people were killed.

The United States and its European allies blamed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and launched airstrikes to punish him.

Syrian officials still deny that bombing took place, and their Russian allies said that the attack was staged.

The investigation uncovered many pieces of evidence that contradict Mr. Assad and his allies. Here are some of the things we found:

  in augmented reality

Kind of says it all.

And what if the NYTs is wrong, yet again?

Why do you believe them or Bellingcat or Dekker and no body else?

Have read in full even one of the OPCW reports?

And understood the meaning of their own stated limitations and unknowns yet?

I understand that an OPCW report on the April 7 Douma chemical attack is imminent. Supposed to come out on Tuesday.

Until then, the NYT article that Susan referred to makes a good point :

Quote
The dents in the bomb’s nose, the lattice markings and the rigging that could be seen in the debris are evidence that the bomb was dropped from an aircraft. Because the Syrian military controls the airspace over Douma, it would be almost impossible for the attack to have been staged by opposition fighters who do not have aircraft.

The black corrosion is evidence supporting the charge that chlorine was used in the attack. The corrosion is similar to that which is caused when metal is exposed to chlorine and water.

How do you explain these observations in your alternative theory of the Douma attacks where the attack was staged or never happened ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4153 on: June 26, 2018, 08:55:41 AM »
Quote
The dents in the bomb’s nose, the lattice markings and the rigging that could be seen in the debris are evidence that the bomb was dropped from an aircraft. Because the Syrian military controls the airspace over Douma, it would be almost impossible for the attack to have been staged by opposition fighters who do not have aircraft.

The black corrosion is evidence supporting the charge that chlorine was used in the attack. The corrosion is similar to that which is caused when metal is exposed to chlorine and water.

How do you explain these observations in your alternative theory of the Douma attacks where the attack was staged or never happened ?

I do not have to explain those observations.

Yes, you do have to explain those observations, if you want your theory (that it was staged, or never happened) to be taken seriously.

Quote
Even though I already have and you ignored them - as has the NYTs article ignored them and everything else presented all over the place.

I did not ignore your response.
You posted this alternative theory here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg154616.html#msg154616

1) The cylinder was planted on the patio before the 7th of april or on the night.
2) The cylinder was partly full with gas, and not necessarily chlorine.
3) There was a 'headchopper' on the patio when the video was taken.
4) Using a spanner he removed the tap/regulator, called down to the guys below and said "Hey ok, start videoing, the tank has frosting on it it now! Quick! Hurry up! Allahu Akbar my brothers!"
5) OR the tap was opened first until it was empty and then he used a spanner to remove the tap without the pressure in the tank.
6) The dead bodies were already dead for a day or several days before the 7th april.
7) They planted the bodies at the scene (not in the basement) as shown in the video.
8) Several minutes before the video was taken someone went around and sprayed white foam into the noses and mouths of some of the bodies. 

which I did NOT ignore : I mentioned that it raises more questions than it answers :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg154616.html#msg154616

- Where did they get the cylinder from, and how did it get damaged ? Did the rebels toss it from high altitude first ? Or did they use a cylinder from one of Assad's previous chlorine attacks on his own people ?
- Which 'gas' did they fill this damaged cylinder with, and if it was chlorine, how and where did they produce the chlorine ? If no chlorine, which gas was it that they filled the cylinder with ?
- Who exactly are these dead people, and how exactly did they die ?

Now, are you going to answer these questions, and explain the observations noted by the NYT under your theory, or are you going to continue to deny all the evidence and continue assert that the attack was staged without providing ANY evidence for that theory ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4154 on: June 28, 2018, 08:42:39 AM »
A 82-24 vote is not indicative of "deep devisions".
It's indicative of Russia and a few friends attempt to let Chemical Weapons use go un-attributed.

Let's get some context :

Last November at the UN, Russia vetoed the renewal of the mandate of the Joint independent Mechanism, the body charged with identifying the perpetrators. The west claimed Russia had used its veto as a permanent member of the security council because the JIM’s reports had shown the Assad regime was repeatedly breaking the weapons convention mainly by using sarin or chlorine on Syrian citizens. The JIM had found the Syrian government responsible for an attack at Khan Sheykhun in 2017 that killed as many as 90 people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/26/uk-on-collision-course-with-russia-over-chemical-weapons-vote

Since Russia vetoed the UN mandate last November, we have seen a flurry of use of chemical weapons. The Skripal attack in the UK comes to mind, but the real use was in Syria. In Eastern Ghouta alone there were at least 4 attacks killing at least 43 people.

Since last November, chemical weapons inspectors working under the auspices of the OPCW were in a curious position. They could send teams to an alleged chemical weapons attack. They could take samples and draw their conclusions. They could determine whether indeed a chemical weapons incident had occurred. But whatever evidence they turned up, they could not point the finger at a particular country or non-state actor as the perpetrator.

That was, of course, a nonsense. It is like having a detective investigate a killing, only to conclude that yes indeed, murder most foul has been committed, but then being unable to identify the likely culprit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44634434

So this ruling by the OPCW, that it can now use evidence to attribute blame for chemical attacks is a good thing.

You wonder why Russia is so opposed to this ruling. If these attacks were staged or a "false-flag" attack as they (and some commenters here on this forum) claim, then they should be happy that the OPCW can now attribute blame.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 08:52:42 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4155 on: June 29, 2018, 08:12:58 AM »
I'd like to note that since the start of the World Cup, Russia is behaving well.
No civilian airplanes shot down, no chemical attacks in Syria, no ex-spies murdered, no cyber attacks on foreign countries, and no civilians killed in Ukraine.

It would be nice if they can sustain that behavior after the Word Cup is over.

[edit] OK. So they are still bombing hospitals in Syria :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/warplanes-bomb-3-hospitals-in-southern-syria-as-assads-army-presses-offensive/2018/06/27/c3850054-798b-11e8-ac4e-421ef7165923_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0a9b07ecefed

But maybe this is just the Syrian air force, not the Russians this time...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 08:25:33 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Buddy

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4156 on: June 29, 2018, 09:58:58 PM »
Wonder why all those Russian's were at Traitor Donnie's inauguration?   It was probably just a coincidence.....   ;)

Starting at 6:19 into the clip below:



Oh.... did you hear that Paul Manafort had received a $10 million dollar loan from Oleg Derapaska in 2010.  The documents that revealed that loan were obtained when Manafort's home and storage areas were raided.  Derepaska is a Russian oligarch with close ties to little Vladi.

What ever happened to "I don't do any business with Russians".....  Hmmmmmmm.....
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4157 on: July 01, 2018, 08:29:54 AM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?
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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4158 on: July 01, 2018, 02:51:43 PM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?

Yes "that" Lavrov the Foreign Minister of Russia. Yeah him.


Indicative that Lavrov had no prior knowledge of the poisons detected. He obviously was of the opinion that BZ had been present in the sample, rather than having been added later as a control.
His error does far more to clear the Russian Government than any protestation of innocence could have.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4159 on: July 02, 2018, 05:40:08 AM »
29 Jun 2018  Good exclusive interview by UK Channel 4 with Lavrov - with full video 34 mins

Is that the same Lavrov who lied through his teeth when he claimed that a Swiss lab confirmed that BZ was used in the Skripal attack ?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-swiss-lab-hasnt-cast-12367077

While that turned out to be a blatant lie ?

That Lavrov ?

Yes "that" Lavrov the Foreign Minister of Russia. Yeah him.


Indicative that Lavrov had no prior knowledge of the poisons detected. He obviously was of the opinion that BZ had been present in the sample, rather than having been added later as a control.
His error does far more to clear the Russian Government than any protestation of innocence could have.
Terry

Lavrov's statement was not an "error" (as in "a mistake"). It was a deliberate lie. A fabricated quote.

This is what Lavrov said :

Quote
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents. Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” End of quote.

http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/3169545

I mentioned very early on that this "quote" would not be present in a scientific report :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg150548.html#msg150548
and after Spiez lab declared that no BZ was present in the Skripal sample :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg150930/topicseen.html#msg150930
it became blatantly clear that Lavrov created that "quote" entirely out of thin air.
https://www.uawire.org/swiss-laboratory-responded-to-lavrov-s-claims

In other words, a blatant lie. Yes, by Lavrov, the Foreign Minister of Russia. Yeah him.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 05:54:29 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4160 on: July 02, 2018, 10:05:33 AM »
Lavrov is human, he misunderstood or misinterpreted a preliminary report from OPCW. It was careless of him not to check the technical details with some expert, but I wouldn't call it a lie, as he said this tentatively. Rob, you're making a hen out of a feather.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4161 on: July 02, 2018, 03:30:19 PM »
Wow, a love fest for Lavrov!

This clearly indicates that this forum is being attacked by Russian bots and zombies!

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4162 on: July 03, 2018, 09:33:58 AM »
Lavrov is human, he misunderstood or misinterpreted a preliminary report from OPCW.

No, Hefeistos. He QUOTED from what he said was a Swiss lab report. No way he "misunderstood or misinterpreted" that quote. Since that Swiss lab never wrote these words Lavrov quoted, Lavrov lied; he made the quote up out of thin air. Plain and simple.

Why do you keep on apologizing for Russia's lies ?
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4163 on: July 03, 2018, 01:14:44 PM »

No, Hefeistos. He QUOTED from what he said was a Swiss lab report. No way he "misunderstood or misinterpreted" that quote. Since that Swiss lab never wrote these words Lavrov quoted, Lavrov lied; he made the quote up out of thin air. Plain and simple.

Why do you keep on apologizing for Russia's lies ?

OMG!  Yes, he quoted. Lavrov just didn't read the whole thing, he read this part about BZ in control samples and thought he found something interesting. I don't understand why you bring this up at all, maybe you should focus on your own president's habit of lying all the time instead.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4164 on: July 03, 2018, 01:46:57 PM »

No, Hefeistos. He QUOTED from what he said was a Swiss lab report. No way he "misunderstood or misinterpreted" that quote. Since that Swiss lab never wrote these words Lavrov quoted, Lavrov lied; he made the quote up out of thin air. Plain and simple.

Why do you keep on apologizing for Russia's lies ?

OMG!  Yes, he quoted. Lavrov just didn't read the whole thing, he read this part about BZ in control samples and thought he found something interesting. I don't understand why you bring this up at all, maybe you should focus on your own president's habit of lying all the time instead.

Trump is certainly the most outrageous, egregious liar on the public stage, not just in the political realm.

This doesn't mean that Lavrov wasn't dissembling and obfuscating when he raised BZ as a culprit in the poisoning.  He *could* have just misinterpreted the report, and had no expert to advise him before speaking to the press.  Unlike Trump, however, Lavrov seems intelligent, cautious, and unlikely to dismiss available experts.

The two are very different in character.  Both, however, seem to be acting like people guilty of something.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4165 on: July 03, 2018, 03:46:37 PM »
Unlike Trump, however, Lavrov seems intelligent, cautious, and unlikely to dismiss available experts.

The two are very different in character.  Both, however, seem to be acting like people guilty of something.
Yes, two very different liars:
Trump doesn't care or know what truth is. His lies come out of his butt.
Lavrov seems to know it very well. He thinks before he lies.

Looks there is some truth to this meme issued by the Russian UK embassy during Lavrov's Gish gallop of lies about the Skripal case:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4166 on: July 03, 2018, 04:05:37 PM »
Sounds like some people have missed the report by Hersh from his global intel sources that the Skripal's were targeted for murder by the Russian Mafia because both were providing info to MI5 and European law enforcement agencies. Which is why they are under protective custody - iow the Brits really screwed up - so there's a fair bit of guilt to go around after promising they'd be safe in the UK.

Or maybe they had heard that only to totally discount it as even possibly being true on a wild whim. Can't say I care either way myself. Each to their own I suppose. No matter what people believe it can't ever change what the truth is. Because it is what it is. :)

I agree that we won't know the full truth, ever.  But if the Skripal case is worth talking about, it's worth trying to understand what likely happened and why.

As to Hersh, he utterly misunderstands the chemistry and toxicology of Novichok agents. 
“You saw that mess you had in March, the two Russians that were allegedly killed by nerve gas, which is essentially impossible,” he continued in reference to the poisoning of ex-Soviet double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury three months ago."
https://www.rt.com/uk/431168-salisbury-skripal-seymour-hersh/

The Novichok agents aren't gasses, I previously supplied the negligible vapor pressure on this forum.  It was applied in liquid form to the exterior door handle.  Only direct contact with the liquid would result in a toxic effect.  So Hersh dismisses the "official narrative" out of pure ignorance.

As to Hersh having heard, somewhere, from someone, that the Russian mob was responsible, I don't find that credible.  Except that the Kremlin may well have used organized crime elements to carry out the attempted assassination.  Plausible deniability.

I think ASILurker provided a good account of how Putin brought discipline and order to the Russian oligarchs/kleptocrats upon assuming power.  These elements wouldn't credibly use a nerve agent in England to assassinate a traitor to Russia without the approval (or order) of the Kremlin.  Nobody in Russia who values his life would do such a thing without approval.

I'm skeptical that Skripal had any important information to suppress.  He was arrested and imprisoned in 2004.  From that moment forward to the present, no sane individual could trust where his ultimate loyalties lay.  No sane person would entrust him with sensitive information.  It's hard to believe any information from before 2004 could possibly be worth killing him for.

The attempted assassination was an effort to deliver delayed justice to a traitor, likely to dissuade future traitors.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4167 on: July 03, 2018, 04:31:21 PM »
How much nonsense has old Seymour Hersh produced recently? Maybe time for retirement and an early Alzheimer check? (Reminds me of Chomsky...)

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4168 on: July 04, 2018, 05:21:13 AM »
New Senate Intelligence Committee report backs up the intel community's findings on Russian election meddling
https://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Senate-Intelligence-Committee-says-it-sees-no-11007531.php

"The Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday released a bipartisan report about the US intelligence community's January 2017 assessment of Russia's election meddling.
The committee found that the assessment was a "sound intelligence product" and that the conclusions were "reached in a professional and transparent manner."

"The senators found that the Kremlin directed Russia's meddling, interfering specifically to hurt Hillary Clinton, the 2016 Democratic presidential nominee, and help Trump, the Republican nominee. The document did not draw any conclusions about whether Russia's campaign was successful.

In a press release Tuesday, the panel added that the ICA's conclusions were "well supported and the tradecraft was strong."

"The Committee has spent the last 16 months reviewing the sources, tradecraft, and analytic work underpinning the Intelligence Community Assessment and sees no reason to dispute the conclusions," Sen. Richard Burr, the Republican chairman of the committee, said in a statement.


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4169 on: July 04, 2018, 08:50:42 AM »

No, Hefeistos. He QUOTED from what he said was a Swiss lab report. No way he "misunderstood or misinterpreted" that quote. Since that Swiss lab never wrote these words Lavrov quoted, Lavrov lied; he made the quote up out of thin air. Plain and simple.

Why do you keep on apologizing for Russia's lies ?

OMG!  Yes, he quoted. Lavrov just didn't read the whole thing, he read this part about BZ in control samples and thought he found something interesting.

Man, it's like splitting hairs with you. No Hefeistos. It's not that he "didn't read the whole thing".
The point is that Lavrov fabricated the quote entirely. Spiez lab NEVER wrote the words that Lavrov quoted !

Lavrov's quote was a fabrication. A deliberate lie, to discredit OPCW and its labs and the UK.

Quote
I don't understand why you bring this up at all, maybe you should focus on your own president's habit of lying all the time instead.

That's "what-about-ism".
I don't see anyone here apologizing for Trump's lies.

Look. Russia lies. There is even a web site for it :
http://www.russialies.com/
The latest overview features 280 lies, if I'm not mistaken.
So one more lie from Lavrov barely moves the needle on the scale.

The only reason we are still talking about it is because you continue to apologize for Russia's lies.
What's you agenda, Hefaistos ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4170 on: July 04, 2018, 09:52:17 AM »
If this were true, then Lavrov would be the dumbest jackass in the entire modern world bar none.

You said it. Not me.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4171 on: July 04, 2018, 10:32:45 AM »
So Rob thinks that Lavrov and his gang of crooks, themselves wrote up a doc then knowingly falsely claimed it was written by and came from the 'Spiez lab' despite also knowing beforehand that the Spiez lab would undoubtedly deny it (because, well, Lavrov wrote it) --- and he and they did all of this in order to discredit the OPCW and UK labs ..... Houston, we have a problem, this ship won't fly. 

Well, let's see. This is what OPCW itself has to say about it :

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg01_e_.pdf

Quote
The Labs were able to confirm the identity of the chemical by applying existing, well-established procedures. There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report.

That's orthogonal to Lavrov's "quote" of Spiez lab's statements.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 10:50:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4172 on: July 04, 2018, 11:08:22 AM »
Now all you need to do is prove Lavrov made it all up (the text) including his BZ comments; and was and still is lying about that.

Let's just take the "BZ comments". Lavrov claimed that he quoted Spiez lab to state :
“Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ..."
But in reality, there were no traces of BZ, only precursors of it, and only in the control sample.
OPCW stated :
"The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures."

So there you have it. Lavrov lied. He made that quote up. Plain and simple.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4173 on: July 04, 2018, 11:36:00 AM »
To conclude, here is a statement by Switzerland, regarding Lavrov's statements :

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59nat02_e_.pdf

Quote
Before I conclude, Mr Chairperson, my government wishes to express its incomprehension
about a statement by the Russian Federation
regarding the Swiss designated laboratory at
Spiez. Whether or not Spiez Laboratory was one of the designated laboratories involved in
the analysis of the Salisbury samples, an analysis report of our designated laboratory would
not have been drafted in the way and contained the type of language alleged to be a quote
from a Spiez Laboratory report.
I am referring to an English translation of a statement by the
Russian Foreign Minister available on the official website of the Ministry.

Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 11:46:19 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4174 on: July 05, 2018, 03:23:31 AM »
Unlike Trump, however, Lavrov seems intelligent, cautious, and unlikely to dismiss available experts.

The two are very different in character.  Both, however, seem to be acting like people guilty of something.
Yes, two very different liars:
Trump doesn't care or know what truth is. His lies come out of his butt.
Lavrov seems to know it very well. He thinks before he lies.

Looks there is some truth to this meme issued by the Russian UK embassy during Lavrov's Gish gallop of lies about the Skripal case:
 

I don't think there's any need to demonize Lavrov.  I think he's doing a good job of doing his job.  That is, every foreign minister (or Secretary of State for the US) has a job of promoting the image, prestige, influence and status of his nation on the world stage.  I wouldn't put it past *any* of them, from any nation, to lie, obfuscate, or dissemble when the job calls for it.  I'm sure they all prefer to be truthful when that's feasible.

A rare individual might resign rather than stoop to such actions.   But the professional path needed to reach such a post likely, I imagine, precludes many such people from attaining such a position.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4175 on: July 05, 2018, 09:17:22 AM »
Quote
The attempted assassination was an effort to deliver delayed justice to a traitor, likely to dissuade future traitors.

That's called an opinion, based on an assumption that is based upon an abject lack of evidence while never being privy to all the facts, ever.

What are you talking about "opinion based on assumption based upon abject lack of evidence" ? Putin himself spelled it out pretty clearly :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-traitors-kick-bucket-sergei-skripal-latest-video-30-pieces-silver-a8243206.html

Quote
“Traitors will kick the bucket, believe me. Those other folks betrayed their friends, their brother in arms,” Mr Putin said.

“Whatever they got in exchange for it, those 30 pieces of silver they were given, they will choke on them.”
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4176 on: July 05, 2018, 09:34:59 AM »
I don't think there's any need to demonize Lavrov.  I think he's doing a good job of doing his job.  That is, every foreign minister (or Secretary of State for the US) has a job of promoting the image, prestige, influence and status of his nation on the world stage.  I wouldn't put it past *any* of them, from any nation, to lie, obfuscate, or dissemble when the job calls for it.  I'm sure they all prefer to be truthful when that's feasible.

A rare individual might resign rather than stoop to such actions.   But the professional path needed to reach such a post likely, I imagine, precludes many such people from attaining such a position.

Nobody is demonizing Lavrov.
We only pointed out that he lied. He fabricated a quote that he attributed to Spiez labs.
He did not have to do that.
He could have been honest.
But he decided (or was instructed) that it was in the benefit of Russia to lie through his teeth and make up a quote that would discredit OPCW if it were true.

Maybe Lavrov wants to speak the truth, but he didn't.
And it was not the first time that he lied.
I think it was you who pointed out that he lied about that patent on Novichok :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg151320/topicseen.html#msg151320

Quote
It does parrot Lavrov's claim that Novichok was patented in the US in 2015.  Lavrov's statement isn't detailed, but Tass seems to give further information on this patent:
http://tass.com/politics/1000583

It's an obfuscation, a lie.  Digging into details, that  patent was for a *bullet* designed to be suitable for delivery of nerve agents of any type, potentially including Novichok.  Irrelevant to this matter.

Elsewhere on the internet, one can find a claim that the specific patent was US9132135B2.  Of course, this wasn't a patent for Novichok at all, but a method of treating oganophosphate poisoning.  More obfuscation.

Why issue false statements about BZ and US patents unless one is trying to hide the truth?

We know that Russia lies all the time (russialies.com lists 280 lies), and thus these lies by Lavrov about the Salisbury incident don't make much of a difference. Besides, the Russian lies about MH17 were much more egregious than the ones about Salisbury.

But it should be clear by now that you can't trust anything that comes out of Russia, and RT blindly parrots these lies.

Which is why I find it curious that ASILurker quotes RT five times in his latest post.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4177 on: July 05, 2018, 09:46:58 AM »
(Interview)  A quest for truth with investigative reporter Seymour Hersh

Hersh is a snake-oil salesman who makes up stuff as he goes along.

For example, he made up this story about the April 4th 2017 Khan Sheikhoun chemical attack in Syria, and claimed that no sarin was used and that it was caused by the bombing of a chemical storage facility. Yet Hersh provided no evidence for ANY of his claims and is contradicted by every other investigation, such as done by the OPCW, the French Government and even contradicts what Russia and Syria say about this attack, and more importantly he did not identify exactly which facility that might have been.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/06/25/will-get-fooled-seymour-hersh-welt-khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack/

As Bellingcat concludes :
Quote
One might argue that all the individuals and groups on the ground, all the doctors treating the victims, and every single person spoken to by the journalists visiting the site failed to mention the site described by Hersh, but there’s a very simple way to clear up this matter. Anyone can access satellite imagery of the town before and after the date of the attack thanks to the imagery available on Terraserver, all Hersh’s source has to do is provide the coordinates of the building attacked and anyone with an internet connection will be able to look at that exact location, and see the destroyed building. A simple way for both Hersh and Welt to preserve their reputations.

Not sure why you (ASILurker) are even mentioning his opinion pieces.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 09:56:22 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4178 on: July 05, 2018, 10:41:54 AM »
Quoth https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/05/uk-points-russia-behind-second-wiltshire-novichok-poisoning

UK points to Russia as being behind second Wiltshire poisoning

(...)

Britain’s top counter-terrorism officer, Neil Basu, announced on Wednesday night that expert scientists in chemical warfare at the Porton Down laboratory had established that novichok caused the collapse of Dawn Sturgess, 44, from Salisbury, and Charlie Rowley, 45, of Amesbury.

They were taken ill at their home on Saturday, eight miles (12km) from the Salisbury home of Sergei Skripal (...)

Paramedics were first called to a home on Muggleton Road in Amesbury at 10.15am on Saturday after Sturgess collapsed. Five hours later Rowley was taken ill.

They were taken to the Salisbury district hospital, where the Skripals were also treated.

(...) “(...) However ... due to concerns over the symptoms the man and woman were displaying, samples from both patients were sent to Porton Down laboratory for analysis.

(...)

Basu said on Wednesday evening that no one else had complained of the symptoms associated with novichok poisoning. A senior government source told the Press Association it was believed there was cross-contamination of the same batch of nerve agent involved in the “reckless” Salisbury attack, as opposed to a secondary attack.

(...)



(my emph.) Article rewritten/updated since quote.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 10:53:42 AM by Martin Gisser »

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4179 on: July 05, 2018, 01:05:19 PM »
... contradicted by every other investigation, such as done by the OPCW, the French Government

Not sure why you (ASILurker) are even mentioning his opinion pieces.

Have you read that 'investigation' by the French Government? I have. It contains no evidence, just allegations.
Not sure why you (Rob Dekker) are even mentioning that piece of propaganda.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4180 on: July 05, 2018, 02:29:05 PM »
Quoth https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/05/uk-points-russia-behind-second-wiltshire-novichok-poisoning

UK points to Russia as being behind second Wiltshire poisoning

This is why Russians love sploshing Novichok all over the place. Especially now during the World Cup final games and with Trump meeting Putin in 10 days time. 

Novichok is very hard to make, but the precursors can simply be mixed to make instant deadly nerve agent.
[FACT: The Russians who invented it, say that they never succeded to make a binary version of it when the Novichok programme was run during Soviet times.]

Novichok is hard to identify, but can be identified as a type developed by Russians.
[We must assume, that OPCW doesn't cross-examine the variant of Novichok stored in Porton Down to the variant found in the victims' blood.]

Novichok is extremely deadly, one of the deadliest nerve poisons, and it kills within 15-20 minutes after contact.
[But not in England, where it doesn’t kill at all]

It’s perfect for hit jobs as it doesn’t persist.
[But if you are a Russian hitman on assignment in England, it can persist for several weeks (as with the Skripals) or even for 4 months (as now).]

It works more or less instantly, unless through the skin and in England.
[The main route of exposure is thought to be through inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure.]

Whatever the dose it has the same effects and takes about the same time.
[In England the effects and the timing are just different from what the science says it should be.]

In short: the perfect [politizised] poison.

"Considering the fact that both Rink and Mirzayanov have stated that the substance would have started decomposition by the time samples were acquired, it seems as though Porton Down may have provided OPCW with Novichok samples developed in a laboratory rather than a substance genuinely acquired 18 days after the components had been combined."
https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/06/on-the-skripal-poisoning-case-and-the-questions-it-leaves-unanswered/
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 02:56:53 PM by Hefaistos »

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4181 on: July 05, 2018, 02:41:33 PM »

So there you have it. Lavrov lied. He made that quote up. Plain and simple.
You got this wrong, Rob.
Lavrov quoted from a secret lab report that he had given access to. A lab report that was  communicated to OPCW from the Spiez labs. Of course he didn't just invent that text.

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4182 on: July 05, 2018, 03:07:01 PM »
The novichok denial exhibited here reminds me of climate denial.
We had it already after the Skripal poisoning. No need to repeat it all again.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4183 on: July 05, 2018, 03:58:08 PM »
The novichok denial exhibited here reminds me of climate denial.
We had it already after the Skripal poisoning. No need to repeat it all again.

Martin, should I conclude from your statement that you believe there is no evidence for AGW?

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4184 on: July 05, 2018, 04:20:28 PM »
The novichok denial exhibited here reminds me of climate denial.
We had it already after the Skripal poisoning. No need to repeat it all again.

Martin, should I conclude from your statement that you believe there is no evidence for AGW?

An absolutely classic case of reversing meaning. Since the Novichok is proven beyond any reasonable doubt (which is what Martin Gisser said), denying it is just like denying anthropogenic global warming.

It is easier to destroy than to build. Taking somebody's words and turning them on their heads is easy if you don't mind the dishonesty. There's a lot of it about. It's just like professional trolls, though I am still convinced at least one of them is busy on the Arctic forum. Political and climate-denying dirty tricks know no boundaries.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 12:51:28 AM by Susan Anderson »

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4185 on: July 05, 2018, 04:43:16 PM »
...Since the Novichok is proven beyond any reasonable doubt (which is what Martin Gisser said), denying it is just like denying anthropogenic global warming.
...

I assume Martin refers to the alleged Russian culpability of trying to kill people in England with Novichok, as no serious person doubts that it actually was novichok that was used.
However, culpability has not been evidenced, only alleged.

what on Earth does Novichok in England has to do with AGW? It's just below the belt arguing, in lack of real arguments.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4186 on: July 05, 2018, 06:22:31 PM »

What's you agenda, Hefaistos ?

Trying to understand, and to debunk manipulations of the truth regarding 'Russia-gate', whether from mass media or from governements.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4187 on: July 06, 2018, 09:21:01 AM »

So there you have it. Lavrov lied. He made that quote up. Plain and simple.
You got this wrong, Rob.
Lavrov quoted from a secret lab report that he had given access to. A lab report that was  communicated to OPCW from the Spiez labs. Of course he didn't just invent that text.

Sure. Throw out all the evidence, and ignore the reasoning, and you end up right where you started.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4188 on: July 06, 2018, 06:26:54 PM »
Vladimir Uglev answers Hefaistos:
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/novichok-inventor-amesbury-poisoning-salisbury-russia-vladimir-uglev-a8432876.html
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43828580


Novichok is hard to identify, but can be identified as a type developed by Russians.
[We must assume, that OPCW doesn't cross-examine the variant of Novichok stored in Porton Down to the variant found in the victims' blood.]

Quote
"I am 99 per cent sure it was A-234 – I know it like a mother knows her child,” [1]

"I can tell by the mass spectrometry readings, the presence of fluorine, by its molecular weight, and from all the spectrum data I was sent recently." [2]


Quote from: Hefaistos
Novichok is extremely deadly, one of the deadliest nerve poisons, and it kills within 15-20 minutes after contact.
[But not in England, where it doesn’t kill at all]

Quote
But if the nerve agent was so powerful, how did the Skripals survive? Vladimir believes they received a "small dose… close to the threshold level."

"I could probably count a dozen people who've been poisoned by our substances, in different circumstances, for example, at the military training ground. Then there was the case of scientist Andrei Zheleznyakov who got infected in the laboratory."

Vladimir Uglev worked at a state laboratory in Shikhany, in Russia's Saratov region. One day he himself was involved in an accident with a novichok.

"It was with 'novichok' A-240. The solvent boiled over and splashed on to my right hand. I put my hand into hydrochloric acid, then washed it with an alkaline peroxide solution and put it under the tap." [2]
[Zheleznyakov survived, told his story, but died later of horrible complications [3] Just like the Skripals might not die healthy.]
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok

Quote from: Hefaistos
It’s perfect for hit jobs as it doesn’t persist.
[But if you are a Russian hitman on assignment in England, it can persist for several weeks (as with the Skripals) or even for 4 months (as now).]

Quote
In direct sunshine on an even metallic surface, the substance evaporates quickly, says Mr Uglev. In colder, drier conditions, absorbed onto uneven, softer surfaces, it can stick around for a long time. (...)
“The substance can absorb itself into any soft surface, whether trees, leather, or park benches,” he said. “From there it can be absorbed onto people’s skin with all the consequences.”
(...)
When stored in ampules – sealed glass capsules – its shelf life stretches to decades. (...)
“It may be secondary contamination from the first batch, or the assassin had several syringes prepared for him, left buried somewhere in the area,” [1]

-----------------------

Quote from: Hefaistos
It works more or less instantly, unless through the skin and in England.
[The main route of exposure is thought to be through inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure.]

(See/consider above.)

Quote from: Hefaistos
Whatever the dose it has the same effects and takes about the same time.
[In England the effects and the timing are just different from what the science says it should be.]
What science? Human experiments? Clairvoyance?

Quote from: Hefaistos
In short: the perfect [politizised] poison.
Esp. for conspiracy theorists and "russophiles".

--------------------------------------
...and that's why I said "novichok denial".
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 06:32:47 PM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4189 on: July 07, 2018, 07:13:32 AM »
... contradicted by every other investigation, such as done by the OPCW, the French Government

Not sure why you (ASILurker) are even mentioning his opinion pieces.

Have you read that 'investigation' by the French Government? I have. It contains no evidence, just allegations.
Not sure why you (Rob Dekker) are even mentioning that piece of propaganda.

Yes. I read that report.
Here it is :
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/syria/events/article/chemical-attack-in-syria-national-evaluation-presented-by-jean-marc-ayrault

It contains statements like this, which rely on environmental samples, and biomedical samples taken :

Quote
“The analyses carried out by French experts on the environmental samples collected at one of the impact points of the chemical attack at Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017 reveal the presence of sarin, of a specific secondary product (diisopropyl methylphosphonate – DIMP) formed during synthesis of sarin from isopropanol and DF (methylphosphonyl difluoride), and hexamine. Analysis of biomedical samples also shows that a victim of the Khan Sheikhoun attack, a sample of whose blood was taken in Syria on the very day of the attack, was exposed to sarin.”

Which contradicts your statements that "It contains no evidence, just allegations.".
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Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4190 on: July 08, 2018, 02:52:20 PM »
Seizing on the fact that public and/or legal documents use the word "allegations" as "proof" that the allegations are not true is exactly the kind of specious argument that climate deniers use to exploit honest scientific uncertainty.

But I'm actually here to post this: https://arcdigital.media/how-one-doctors-false-claim-was-used-to-erase-atrocities-in-syria-d76459ffa4e2

Quote
How One Doctor’s False Claim Was Used To Erase Atrocities In Syria

On social media, lies spread faster—and further—than the truth

Claiming to be a cardiologist, Twitter user @Thomas_Binder posted a tweet in the aftermath of the chemical attack in Syria last month accusing medical workers of faking a photo in which victims of the attack were pictured receiving life-saving care. Binder later admitted that the information in his tweet was wrong, but by the time he did so, the false claim had already been retweeted over ten thousand times and used to propagate a smear campaign against the volunteer rescue group known as the White Helmets.

The tweet was never taken down and has since made its way onto other websites and social media platforms, where it is being used as “proof” that the chemical attack was a hoax or a “false flag.” Meanwhile, the correction, which was posted two days later, has barely been noticed, garnering just over 40 retweets since it went up on April 15.

The virality of Binder’s tweet provides important insight into the human factors involved in the diffusion of misinformation (this refers to incorrect information, without assigning intent on the part of those spreading it, unlike “disinformation,” which does imply intentional deception), showing how cognitive biases, ideological motives, social and cultural norms, and characteristics of the misinformation itself interact to fuel a vicious feedback loop. With so many headlines focused on automated accounts (“bots”), online advertisements, and algorithm manipulation, it’s easy to overlook the fact that the problem we are dealing with is, at its core, a human problem.



[Note: RT in this image is "retweet" not Russia Times. There's more in the article, which uses this example to demonstrate how misinformation is spread and validated.]
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 03:51:35 PM by Susan Anderson »

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4191 on: July 09, 2018, 02:57:25 AM »
(...)
Quote
How One Doctor’s False Claim Was Used To Erase Atrocities In Syria
(...)
The virality of Binder’s tweet provides important insight into the human factors involved in the diffusion of misinformation (this refers to incorrect information, without assigning intent on the part of those spreading it, unlike “disinformation,” which does imply intentional deception), showing how cognitive biases, ideological motives, social and cultural norms, and characteristics of the misinformation itself interact to fuel a vicious feedback loop. With so many headlines focused on automated accounts (“bots”), online advertisements, and algorithm manipulation, it’s easy to overlook the fact that the problem we are dealing with is, at its core, a human problem.
(...)
That's why I use  to say "Russian bots and zombies".  Dunno if there's a better wörd already coined.

-------------------
Apropos...


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4192 on: July 09, 2018, 06:15:07 AM »
Well, be careful Susan that your not making "allegations" that anyone who uses the word "allegations" is using it as "proof" that the "allegations" are not true as opposed to simply stating the "allegations" are merely that - "allegations" - as the available "evidence and proof" in those "allegations" is insufficient to believe when applying critical thinking skills and following the Principle of Innocent Until Proven Guilty in a Court of Law ........   ;)

That's funny, because the only guy who inserted the words "alleged" and "allegations" into an investigative report is this guy :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg162450.html#msg162450

Here is one section from the French report :

Quote
The analyses carried out by French experts on the environmental samples collected at one of the impact points of the chemical attack at Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017 reveal the presence of sarin, of a specific secondary product (diisopropyl methylphosphonate – DIMP) formed during synthesis of sarin from isopropanol and DF (methylphosphonyl difluoride), and hexamine.

That is "sarin", which only the Syrian government is known to hold (and not the rebel groups), and "hexamine" which is only known to be used by the Syrian government as an acid scavenger when producing sarin.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/21/know-hexamine-syrias-sarin/
 
It's pretty darn clear that Assad-lovers and Putin-apologists are at this point beyond grasping at straws to "explain" the sarin attack on Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017.
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4193 on: July 09, 2018, 09:31:10 PM »
...
It contains statements like this, which rely on environmental samples, and biomedical samples taken :

Quote
“The analyses carried out by French experts on the environmental samples collected at one of the impact points of the chemical attack at Khan Sheikhoun on 4 April 2017 reveal the presence of sarin, of a specific secondary product (diisopropyl methylphosphonate – DIMP) formed during synthesis of sarin from isopropanol and DF (methylphosphonyl difluoride), and hexamine. Analysis of biomedical samples also shows that a victim of the Khan Sheikhoun attack, a sample of whose blood was taken in Syria on the very day of the attack, was exposed to sarin.”

Which contradicts your statements that "It contains no evidence, just allegations.".

Problem is, the French also didn't visit the attack site. They got samples from the jihadists and they just can't build a case on that basis as there is no chain of custody. I think Khan Sheikhoun was staged by the jihadists, but I'm not going to defend my point of view here. Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site. (Situation likely changed during the last year as the jihadists lost control of a lot of land and sites)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4194 on: July 10, 2018, 08:03:13 AM »
Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site.

Which site would that be, and which OPCW reports mention it ?
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4195 on: July 10, 2018, 01:31:33 PM »
Just want to mention, that the jihadists have for the last 5 years had control of one of the sites that belonged to the governement's chemical weapons programmel. This is also mentioned in a number of OPCW reports, as OPCW has'nt been able to access that site.

Which site would that be, and which OPCW reports mention it ?
I checked it up, and it's mentioned in all progress reports by OPCW. E.g. here is from the latest one, October 2017.

"6. Progress by the Syrian Arab Republic is as follows:
(a) The Secretariat has verified the destruction of 25 of the 27 chemical weapons
production facilities (CWPFs) declared by the Syrian Arab Republic
. During
the period under review, the Secretariat has continued the preparatory work to
carry out an initial inspection to confirm the current condition of the last two
stationary above-ground facilities."

Those two facilities have been under jihadist control since 2013, I believe. For some more detailed info I looked into the "OVERALL REPORT ON THE ELIMINATION OF THE SYRIAN CHEMICAL WEAPONS PROGRAMME" from 2014, and there they write:
"10. In accordance with subparagraph 2(c) of EC-M-33/DEC.1, the Secretariat was
requested to inspect, not later than 30 days after the adoption of the decision, all
declared facilities. By the target date, the Secretariat had been able to conduct on-site
inspections at 21 of 23 declared sites, with two sites being inaccessible due to safety
and security concerns.
The Secretariat was subsequently able to verify one of the
remaining two facilities through the use of remote verification methods, namely, the
use of sealed GPS1 cameras used by Syrian personnel, in accordance with the
guidance of the inspection team. The exact geographical location and the time the
footage/images were captured were then fully authenticated. The final site, which is
not under the control of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, has not been
inspected.
"

It's  also acknowledget, that jihadists conquered CW's from the government side during a battle in 2013.
The conclusion is pretty clear, as you can find the same info repeated in all OPCW reports during this time interval: Jihadists have CW's
https://www.opcw.org/special-sections/syria/related-official-documents/

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4196 on: July 11, 2018, 01:43:28 PM »
Here is a a good list of Trump-Russia activity.
https://www.justsecurity.org/58108/timeline-trumps-acts-accommodation-engagement-russia/

And here is the master list of all stuff Trump has been doing:
https://theweeklylist.org/
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4197 on: July 12, 2018, 09:01:17 AM »
The final site, which is not under the control of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic, has not been inspected."

So the Syrian government (allegedly) destroyed all the chemical weapons sites they control.
But not that last one that they don't control.

Somehow it did not occur to them that maybe they should destroy that site too ?

Even though they and their Russian friends bombed countless hospitals, mosques and schools in rebel-controlled areas, for some obscure reason they did not bomb that one rebel-controlled chemical weapons facility ?

And either way, exactly WHERE is that mysterious last chemical weapons site ?
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Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4198 on: July 12, 2018, 11:14:20 AM »

So the Syrian government (allegedly) destroyed all the chemical weapons sites they control.
But not that last one that they don't control.

Somehow it did not occur to them that maybe they should destroy that site too ?

Yeah, what-ist Rob.

Hefaistos

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4199 on: July 12, 2018, 12:11:19 PM »
Meanwhile how is it that the OPCW can go anywhere in Syrian held territory, but they are to scared to go to places like Khan Sheikhoun where headchoppers are claiming the CW agent SARIN was used ...

The alleged chemical weapons attack at Douma has been thoroughly investigated by international experts at OPCW. They found zero evidence of CW's.
Isn't the main take-away from this, that the White Helmets are now proven to be actors in a chemical weapons theatre staged by jihadists?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 12:16:27 PM by Hefaistos »