Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Russia, Russia, Russia  (Read 329478 times)

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4200 on: July 13, 2018, 10:14:29 AM »
You have a choice of options Rob.

You can keep reading Eliot Higgins the Troll and Spinner of Yarns, or you could go read the OPCW reports and the declaration made by Syria in 2013. All the answers you are asking for are in the latter. Go on, try it. :)

Either you don't know where that last chemical weapons site is either, or you do know, but you don't want to tell us (supported by a link).

Either way you are not being transparent.

P.S. Regarding Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat :
Even OPCW itself is now looking for an expert in 'open source' research :
https://twitter.com/OPCW/status/1017468737186861056
Seems like you are looking your battle against open source journalism.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4201 on: July 13, 2018, 07:30:21 PM »
From the Guardian (bolded mine):

Quote
Will the World Cup finally change how Russia is portrayed?

“England fan shames British media,” was one of many headlines of a similar nature to appear in Kremlin-friendly news outlets in Russia over the past couple of weeks. The story referenced a tweet from England fan Matt Maybury, who on returning from a trip to the World Cup wanted to complain about the “clear propaganda against the Russian people” in the British media. Russia was an “absolutely class country”, he wrote, at odds with what the media had led him to believe.

The tweet went viral, and was covered by multiple Russian television stations and news websites as proof of the British media’s lies.

It is an accusation that has been heard frequently out here in Russia, both from travelling England fans and from Russian media and officials. Last week, the foreign ministry’s Maria Zakharova complained about a “Russophobic campaign” by British news outlets. As Eric Dier scored the winning penalty against Colombia, the commentator on Russian state television shouted: “Down with propaganda! Down with the British press who told their fans not to come!”

Certainly, the buildup to the tournament in much of our press was largely negative, focusing on hooligan worries and the current political situation. It is indeed a pity that while South American fans travelled to Russia by the tens of thousands, European and particularly England fans came to Russia in far smaller numbers than usual, especially given England’s unexpected run to the semi-finals.

So did the British media get Russia wrong? Well, perhaps a bit.

The fans who did come have been impressed by the positive atmosphere: the street parties, the surprisingly lax police presence, the good-natured welcome from the majority of Russians, and the hot weather and cheap beer.

Along with most Russians, I’ve been surprised by just how great the atmosphere has been, but I always expected Russia to put on an excellent World Cup. I was a Moscow correspondent for more than a decade, and have seen the city and country change beyond recognition in that time. I’ve been telling anyone who will listen for some time that most fans who came to Russia would be likely to have a great time.

That doesn’t mean that journalists should have ignored any of the negative issues around Russia, and nor should anyone be in any doubt that much of the World Cup bonhomie is likely to fade when the tournament leaves. But when I hear even some football journalists here for the first time expressing amazement that Moscow is a “normal place” that has nice restaurants and residents who don’t look like aliens; when friends at home who have happily travelled to genuinely dangerous parts of the world tell me they’re too nervous to come to Russia, I do wonder if us foreign correspondents could have done a better job of explaining the country.

The rest of the piece is about how it's not really the media's fault that the Russian people has been systematically dehumanized at the behest of one piece of the oligarchic pie. But that's okay, the first half of the article speaks for itself.

I'm sure we'll be successfully told what to think after the World Cup is over and the regular programme resumes.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4202 on: July 13, 2018, 08:05:48 PM »

I'm sure we'll be successfully told what to think after the World Cup is over and the regular programme resumes.
Success will depend on the gullibility of the audience.


We saw masked men marching under swastikas and wolf-angles and were told that they were freedom loving patriots.


We were shown children being hosed down by heroes protected by nothing more than their white helmets, and were told that this is what the aftermath of a chemical weapons attack looks like.


We saw a machine gunned cockpit and were told that the observer wasn't trained to identify machine gunned panels.


Perhaps we'd learn more by looking than by listening to the explanations?
Terry


Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4203 on: July 13, 2018, 08:23:53 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/13/novichok-that-killed-woman-came-from-bottle-police-believe


UK news
Novichok that killed woman came from bottle, police believe
Object found in Amesbury home of Charlie Rowley held nerve agent, officers say

Police have found a bottle believed to have contained the novichok that killed Dawn Sturgess and poisoned Charlie Rowley in Wiltshire, Scotland Yard has announced.

(...)

In a statement, police said: “On Wednesday 11 July, a small bottle was recovered during searches of Charlie Rowley’s house in Amesbury.

“It was taken to the Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, Wiltshire, for tests.

“Following those tests, scientists have now confirmed to us that the substance contained within the bottle is novichok. Further scientific tests will be carried out to try and establish whether it is from the same batch that contaminated Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March – this remains a main line of inquiry for police.

“Inquiries are under way to establish where the bottle came from and how it came to be in Charlie’s house.”

Sturgess died on Sunday in hospital. Rowley remains in hospital where he has regained consciousness.

(...)

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4204 on: July 13, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
‘Evil Has Won’: Pro-American Germans feel betrayed. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/opinion/trump-germany-transatlantic-alliance-russia.html

“An Amateur Boxer Up Against Muhammad Ali”: Washington Fears Trump Will Be No Match for Putin in Helsinki: Will the President’s Monday meeting with the Russian leader turn into a debacle of his own making? https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/an-amateur-boxer-up-against-muhammad-ali-washington-fears-trump-will-be-no-match-for-putin-in-helsinki

12 Russian Agents Indicted in Mueller Investigation https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/mueller-indictment-russian-intelligence-hacking.html

Quote
Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, on Friday announced new charges against 12 Russian intelligence officers accused of hacking the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton presidential campaign and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. ... includes charges of conspiracy by the Russian intelligence officials against the United States, money laundering and attempts to break into state election boards and other government agencies.

“Free and fair elections are hard-fought and contentious, and there will always be adversaries who work to exacerbate domestic differences and try to confuse, divide and conquer us,” Mr. Rosenstein said in a statement. “So long as we are united in our commitment to the shared values enshrined in the Constitution, they will not succeed.”

Mr. Mueller has filed more than 100 criminal counts against 32 people and three companies. Among the people previously charged are fourteen Russians and three Trump associates who have already pleaded guilty.

Mr. Rosenstein said Friday’s indictment did not include any allegation that the Russian efforts succeeded in influencing the election results. The president’s lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, said in a Twitter post that Friday’s indictment showed “no Americans are involved,” and he called on Mr. Mueller to end the inquiry. “The Russians are nailed,” he wrote.

Just hours before Mr. Rosenstein’s announcement, Mr. Trump said at a news conference in Ellesborough, England, that the special counsel’s investigation was impeding his efforts to get closer to Mr. Putin, and offered his latest attack on the inquiry.

“We do have a political problem where, you know, in the United States, we have this stupidity going on — pure stupidity,” the president said. “It makes it very hard to do something with Russia. Anything you do, it’s always going to be, ‘Oh, Russia, he loves Russia.’ I love the United States, but I love getting along with Russia. And China. And other countries.”

United States intelligence officials concluded in a January 2017 report that Russia had created a sophisticated hacking campaign to influence the 2016 election. .... on July 27, 2016, Russian hackers tried for the first time to break into the servers used by Mrs. Clinton’s personal offices.

“Conspirators attempted after hours to spearphish for the first time email accounts at a domain hosted by a third party provider and used by Clinton’s personal office,” the indictment said. Around the same time, according to the indictment, the hackers targeted 76 Clinton campaign email accounts.

Most of the Russian intelligence officials charged in Friday’s indictment worked for the Russian military intelligence agency, known as the G.R.U. According to the indictment, the conspirators used a variety of currencies for its financial network. But the Russians principally sought to use Bitcoin to fund their work, including the purchase of servers and domain names.

Relying on Bitcoin, the indictment said, allowed the Russians “to avoid direct relationships with traditional financial institutions” — that is, banks that typically want to know details about their customers.

The hackers also sought to create their own money by “mining” Bitcoins, the indictment said. The virtual currency is created by using dedicated computers to perform complex calculations that eventually yield new bitcoins. Among the items bought with Bitcoin mined by hackers was the domain dcleaks.com, the indictment said.

“The pool of Bitcoin generated from the GRU’s mining activity was used, for example, to pay a Romanian company to register the domain dcleaks.com through a payment processing company located in the United States,” the indictment said.

It was also made clear that Assange was part of the rolling out of these leaks.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4205 on: July 13, 2018, 09:38:02 PM »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-russia-could-steal-the-midterms/

The Moscow Midterms
How Russia could steal our next election.

ivica

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 885
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4206 on: July 14, 2018, 09:14:48 AM »
Is Russia the real winner of World Cup 2018? By Steve Rosenberg BBC News, Moscow, 5 hours ago
"
As the World Cup ends, the challenge for the Kremlin will be to convert a short-term PR success into long-term diplomatic gains.

Much will depend on the wider geopolitical game Russia is currently playing. And here, too, it appears President Putin is winning.

On Monday he meets Donald Trump for a summit in Helsinki: with Russia under western sanctions, that is a diplomatic coup for Moscow.
"

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4207 on: July 14, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »
I think this is a good dialogue we don't see enough of:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

AbruptSLR

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 16924
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 342
  • Likes Given: 117
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4208 on: July 15, 2018, 09:08:50 AM »
Mueller's latest indictment confirms that Rich was not the source of the leaked Wikileaks emails.

Title: "The new Mueller indictments should definitively put the Seth Rich conspiracy to rest"

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17568840/russia-trump-seth-rich-conspiracy-mueller-indictments

Extract: "But it probably won’t, because let’s face it, conspiracy theories never end."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4209 on: July 15, 2018, 08:25:59 PM »
I think this is a good dialogue we don't see enough of:
What dialogue? The poor lad got his arse handed to him by Isikoff.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4210 on: July 15, 2018, 08:53:09 PM »
There are several possible interpretations, but at least they're talking about it. Maté has a very strong point that it's not good journalism to so uncritically accept narratives, when there clearly is a battle going on between different oligarchic factions that use the people as a pawn.

One question I would've liked to see Maté ask, is that if intelligence agencies are so fantastically smart that they can pinpoint by name who has allegedly hacked the DNC servers (still zero evidence for it, as Ishikoff admits, but his argument is that there are no whistleblowers and so it must be true), why can't these intelligence agencies produce even one communication between the stupid Trump campaign and the 'Russians', that proves collusion (is that word even used anymore?).

But never mind. I won't let myself be progandised into choosing a team. I wish more journalists would have the same mindset.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4211 on: July 15, 2018, 09:40:53 PM »
Maté is a "skeptic". As in "climate skeptic". The parallels are quite striking. (How can science be so fantastically smart? Etc. etc. etc.) Even his smug demeanor.

(still zero evidence for it, as Ishikoff admits, but his argument is that there are no whistleblowers and so it must be true)
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4212 on: July 15, 2018, 10:07:24 PM »
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.

No, he's definitely not that stupid. I mean, if I've understood correctly, he didn't buy the Iraq-WMD story. But maybe he would have if Clinton or Obama had been president.

I'm glad to hear that you trust American intelligence agencies as much as you do climate scientists. The propaganda seems to work flawlessly. Have you tried to replicate their work like you can that of climate scientists?

Imagine climate scientists saying: AGW is real, just trust us. Would you stand for that? It seems climate risk deniers have been successful at one thing: Completely delegitimizing the word 'skeptic'.

Please, don't use stupid analogies. Maté isn't saying that the Russians are innocent. He's just saying that there is still no conclusive evidence, only a chorus of self-reinforcing and inter-referring voices (intelligence, media, politicians), and that history shows that political motives are known to distort the truth in similar cases. These are all games that are played by the powerful, and they're trying to use powerless people like you and me to do their handiwork.

Russia trying to influence elections, like every country is doing, especially the US, is not worth all this hysteria. The collusion is interesting, but the NSA only seems to be capable of spying on evil GRU geniuses, but not stupid, sloppy, lying Trump. The corruption is most interesting of all, but as everyone is corrupt in DC, I supposed we won't be hearing much about that either (are the Podesta boys in jail yet). All we'll get, is well-timed news flashes that get the froth going.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4213 on: July 15, 2018, 10:26:11 PM »
I didn't note that. But I won't watch again. Isikoff is not that stupid.

No, he's definitely not that stupid. I mean, if I've understood correctly, he didn't buy the Iraq-WMD story. But maybe he would have if Clinton or Obama had been president.

I'm glad to hear that you trust American intelligence agencies as much as you do climate scientists.
I didn't trust "them" with the Iraq-WMD story after Powell's UN presentation, which clearly was bullshit. That story is actually more due to Bush et al who pressed hard for the intelligence agencies to come up with some stuff. This is an entirely different ballpark.

In the Russia case I trust them
1) because the story is consistent with publically available evidence. Isikoff also tried to explain that - he wrote a book about it.
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.
3) The classified evidence was reviewed by a grand jury. That is the first sentence of the indictment: "The Grand Jury for the District of Columbia charges:"
4) Any other "theory" I heard is paranoid conspiracy stuff - or simply smells like denialism.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 10:39:22 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4214 on: July 15, 2018, 10:57:34 PM »
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.

In that case you'll probably know that Trump has become president because the American people is suffering and is fed up with being screwed over by both parties that only serve big money interests, as exemplified by the only presidential candidate who could be beaten by Trump.

If Russian meddling gets your panties in a knot, it's maybe time to read a couple of history books. And ask Angela Merkel who was tapping her phone, while you're at it (but somehow it was impossible to tap the Trump campaign).

Russiagate/Russophobia is one big smokescreen to draw attention away from the real issues, regardless of what Russia has or hasn't done. To return to your analogy: If only AGW would get this much attention!

I'm unnotifying again. I'll report back if I see or read something I find interesting.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4215 on: July 16, 2018, 12:03:22 AM »
2) I know how to wield Occam's Razor.

In that case you'll probably know that Trump has become president because the American people is suffering and is fed up with being screwed over by both parties that only serve big money interests, as exemplified by the only presidential candidate who could be beaten by Trump.
Oh yeah, yadda yadda yadda, and now The Stupid People get screwed over worse than ever... 

Self-maiming with Occam's Razor: Cut away Hillary, bright progressive voter, and voila, a great rationale for having a Donald Trump and his swamp. But everybody is corrupt anyway, so it doesn't matter. Heck, did I say stupid?

Quote
If Russian meddling gets your panties in a knot,
It doesn't. What about you? :)

Quote
it's maybe time to read a couple of history books. And ask Angela Merkel who was tapping her phone,
Whataboutism... A denialist classic from kindergarten to Hannity.

Quote
while you're at it (but somehow it was impossible to tap the Trump campaign).
Who knows?

Quote
Russiagate/Russophobia is one big smokescreen to draw attention away from the real issues,
This is conspirational ideation combined with whataboutism.

Quote
if I see or read something I find interesting.
You have made amply clear that Russiagte is not interesting. Except when a denier speaks up.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:16:29 AM by Martin Gisser »

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4216 on: July 16, 2018, 12:35:15 AM »
the NSA only seems to be capable of spying on evil GRU geniuses, but not stupid, sloppy, lying Trump.
We have to wait for later indictments. Mueller is working from the outside in, like in a mob case.

Meanwhile someone should remember the Dutch intelligence agency, who hacked a camera in Moscow... I guess that was very welcome material for the indictment.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~b4f8111b/

Another thing yet unbeknownst to me is: What did the Estonians find? They had tapped some Russian communications in 2016.

The British (not just Steele) also had stuff in 2016. Who else?
Looks like a western-global conspiracy of the spooks... :)

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4217 on: July 16, 2018, 01:02:32 AM »

Neven

Thanks for the link, but it's hard to watch as Isikoff praises the integrity of the same Mueller team that so recently indicted a Russian entity that didn't even exist.


It's one thing to convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It's much more damning when it's discovered that there was no bread, no mustard, no ham, and that you have actually succeeded in indicting an entity that existed only in the fevered imaginings of the prosecutorial team.


Mueller is either incompetent, or he's been charged with producing evidence of an event that never occurred. That Isikoff chooses to believe someone who reinforces Isikoff's own conspiracy theory isn't difficult to believe, but echo chambers often have that effect.
Mueller was probably telling the truth when he said he was convinced of Saddam's possession of WMDs. That doesn't make him right, it just makes him a very poor arbiter of the truth.


Terry

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1166
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4218 on: July 16, 2018, 02:49:36 PM »

Neven

Thanks for the link, but it's hard to watch as Isikoff praises the integrity of the same Mueller team that so recently indicted a Russian entity that didn't even exist.


It's one thing to convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It's much more damning when it's discovered that there was no bread, no mustard, no ham, and that you have actually succeeded in indicting an entity that existed only in the fevered imaginings of the prosecutorial team.


Mueller is either incompetent, or he's been charged with producing evidence of an event that never occurred. That Isikoff chooses to believe someone who reinforces Isikoff's own conspiracy theory isn't difficult to believe, but echo chambers often have that effect.
Mueller was probably telling the truth when he said he was convinced of Saddam's possession of WMDs. That doesn't make him right, it just makes him a very poor arbiter of the truth.


Terry

This is only valid if you take the words of the lawyer for Concord Management at face value.  This is his assertion, nobody else's.  We should be a tad more discerning.

There's little doubt that an organization called Concord Catering  was in operation.  The defense lawyer's assertion was that this organization did not exist as a "legal entity."  Obfuscation.  An organization does not have to be incorporated to be a defendant.

The matter was not reviewed by the court because the principals of Concord Catering overlap with Concord Management, and only Concord Management's lawyer was present.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4219 on: July 16, 2018, 05:18:56 PM »
Demands that I reproduce evidence by people who continuously do their best to discredit and/or ignore facts they don't agree with will mostly not be answered. Attempts to dominate are not facts, they resemble trolling. But that's not why I came here. This is.

Quote
WikiLeaks’ administrators, including Julian Assange, its founder, did not know what was in the trove — they were simply seeking anything that would widen the divisions inside the party between supporters of Hillary Clinton and those of Bernie Sanders, the Vermont senator who had also sought the nomination
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/us/politics/guccifer-russia-mueller.html

In this they were entirely successful with enough people to help swing the election, a disaster for the climate and for the world. The New York Times is one of the best and most honest reporting organizations in the United States.

Neven, you are becoming more extreme in your insistence that you know better than anyone else what is going on in my world. In the US, politics is partly local. Elsewhere, you asked a question and I provided a detailed and informative answer (Ocasio-Cortez Bronx election), and you used that to once again assert that you know best what is going on, and that I *must* conform. What I am writing here, I acknowledge, is an exaggeration.

I am frustrated and irritated that one of the cliques here that won't acknowledge that there are all kinds of people in the world, in a wide spectrum, and that progress needs to include more than the 1% who are entirely convinced that mainstream Democrats are evil and the ruling party, Republicans, irrelevant and/or innocent. We need to get rid of Republicans who are in the minority and have seized all three branches of government and are ruling as a one-party government, becoming more dangerous by the day.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 05:26:38 PM by Susan Anderson »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4220 on: July 16, 2018, 11:24:40 PM »
I hadn't expected to run into something interesting and Russia-related, but here it is. I dare everyone here to provide something similar from mainstream media that is just as good, both in width and depth (and a beard that looks as good as it does on Paul Jay, America's finest interviewer):



Signing out again.

Edit: Just watched a couple of CNN clips on the same subject. Wow, it's like watching monkeys who ate too much fermented fruit. Lots of emotion, very little thought, and of course, and plenty of exceptionalist nationalism and Hollywoodesque one-liners ('tell that thug he needs to keep out of the greatest democracy in the world'  :D).

How people with a brain can actually identify with that kind of thinking will always be beyond me...   ::)

Signing out again.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 11:47:12 PM by Neven »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

DrTskoul

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 899
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4221 on: July 16, 2018, 11:46:24 PM »
I hadn't expected to run into something interesting and Russia-related, but here it is. I dare everyone here to provide something similar from mainstream media that is just as good, both in width and depth (and a beard that looks as good as it does on Paul Jay, America's finest interviewer):



Signing out again.

Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4222 on: July 16, 2018, 11:51:29 PM »
Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

None of that is being said. Why don't you try and watch it? It's really interesting and thought-provoking, even if you may not like certain parts.

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

AbruptSLR

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 16924
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 342
  • Likes Given: 117
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4223 on: July 17, 2018, 12:19:18 AM »
Russia, Russia, Russia!

Title: "The Justice Department just charged a Russian national with trying to infiltrate the NRA"

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/16/17577838/maria-butina-indictment-russia-spy-trump

Extract: "Just hours after President Trump’s press conference with Vladimir Putin, the Justice Department announced the arrest of a Russian national — Maria Butina — for secretly trying to influence US politics at Russia’s behest.

An affidavit filed by an FBI agent asserts that Butina tried to cozy up to a gun rights organization so she could influence a major political party, all the while working for a top Russian central bank official and trying to advance the interests of the Russian state — and not registering as a foreign agent.

Though the affidavit does not name many of the people and groups involved, previous reporting and context clues make it clear that the gun rights group is the National Rifle Organization, the party is the Republican Party, and the Russian official is Alexander Torshin.

The Butina case is not part of special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe — she was investigated by the FBI’s Washington field office and will be prosecuted by the US Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia. Butina was arrested on Sunday (before Trump and Putin met)."
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

DrTskoul

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 899
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4224 on: July 17, 2018, 12:37:25 AM »
Wtv.  Happy platitudes, Europe is the foe, Putin is the friend, the fault is with the "fake" news, no record of what was really discussed . Awesome outcome. Let's go forth and sing kumbaya. Trump will solve everything, because the people have spoken.

None of that is being said. Why don't you try and watch it? It's really interesting and thought-provoking, even if you may not like certain parts.

Good skills as interviewer, obvious biases. The big bad US vs the innocent Russia ...whitewashing some past there ?? Ex Soviet Union woes do not get to be swept under the carpet...
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

DrTskoul

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 899
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4225 on: July 17, 2018, 12:46:14 AM »
Rise of authoritarianism surges everywhere. After 1000 years the role of prime minister disappears in Turkey. Increase powers given to president. Another president for life in the list. Trump must be jealous....
“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”
― Richard P. Feynman

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4226 on: July 17, 2018, 01:36:09 AM »
Rise of authoritarianism surges everywhere.
We are already enslaved (addicted?) to technology so maybe that's the default human mode.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1967
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 77
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4227 on: July 17, 2018, 04:52:24 AM »
Demands that I reproduce evidence by people who continuously do their best to discredit and/or ignore facts they don't agree with will mostly not be answered. Attempts to dominate are not facts, they resemble trolling. But that's not why I came here. This is.

What is this all about? Anyone know?

i think the details don't even matter, it's clear what she means and i agree with what she wants to say. since you've been a victim several times yourself you should be aware of what that is ;)
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1166
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4228 on: July 17, 2018, 08:03:44 AM »
The full text of the recent Mueller indictment against 12 Russian security agents can be found at this link:
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/07/Muellerindictment.pdf

Alas, the pdf is presented as scanned images, so not text-searchable.

I find the specificity of many details to be impressive.  Many details haven't been covered in the news.  The pilfered data are not limited to e-mails.  Wholesale transfer of strategically important campaign documents also took place. 

Very interesting reading.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4229 on: July 17, 2018, 09:51:10 AM »
One little quote from Greenwald's email reply goes: "As for MSNBC and the like, of course I'm going to defend myself when people with influential platforms accuse me of something as serious as being a paid Kremlin agent. But the broader point is that liberal discourse has completely gone off the rails in a way that I think is unhealthy, toxic, dangerous, and - most of all - entirely counter-productive to the goal of offering an attractive alternative to the retrograde forces that are clearly winning."
The bolded says it all.


Trump would have self destructed months ago, and taken the Republicans with him, if his detractors didn't insist in painting themselves as an even less reasonable alternative.


Terry

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4230 on: July 17, 2018, 10:59:35 AM »

Good skills as interviewer, obvious biases. The big bad US vs the innocent Russia ...whitewashing some past there ?? Ex Soviet Union woes do not get to be swept under the carpet...

Look, you can disagree, there are certainly parts in there that don't appeal to your mindset, but there is nothing in there that says 'big bad US vs innocent Russia'. It's rather 'big bad US oligarchic elements' and 'big bad Russian oligarchic elements' vs American and Russian people.

It says so literally in this follow-up interview with Paul Jay:

Quote
Whether the Kremlin meddled in the U.S. election or not, the hyper-focus on Russiagate overlooks bigger threats: Russian elites to the Russian people, and U.S. elites to the American people, says Paul Jay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=r8gEtJkQBQY

The 'Russians' aren't your enemy, the transnational oligarchic system of wealth concentration is.

You have to try and prevent your brain from going haywire as soon as you see or hear Trump, because it only makes him stronger. All the outrage, wailing and gnashing of teeth are provoked on purpose to distract you.

Yes, your president is a vulgar clown. So what? Keep breathing. The USA has huge problems, and putting a pretty face on them won't solve them. Focus on the underlying causes, and don't rely on mainstream media millionaires to tell you what they are.

You need to beat Trump and his cronies at the ballot. Think about how you need to do that. What's your vision? What do you stand for? What does the American people want? The old method of pretty-faced pro-business Democrats doesn't work anymore. You need to come up with something new, something that appeals to young people and the worker class.

Stop acting out of fear. That's what they want you to do.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Hefaistos

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 344
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4231 on: July 17, 2018, 12:56:32 PM »
Yes :)

But what of the lessons from history? Let's say the 1985 Geneva Summit?

A couple of timed links
Thatcher - "I like Mr. Gorborchov we can do business together"
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=19m2s
US Hardliners
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=20m50s
Change in FM
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=23m49s
Summit agreed
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=25m23s
Reagan "To hell with the past let's do it our way and get something done."
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=47m21s
Irangate, SDI and Washington meeting
https://youtu.be/jA4XxUEb_EE?t=52m5s


Watch the whole doco ~ the ending is superb!


or try google scholar etc.

"I am not a monstrous Russian troll .... I am a human being!" :)

Fantastic links, tells it all, made my day, thanks!

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2269
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4232 on: July 17, 2018, 01:23:34 PM »
Four years ago today, the Russian military (the 53rd Brigade from Kursk) shot down MH17.
Today, I light a candle for the 298 innocent victims of that crime.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4233 on: July 17, 2018, 02:34:33 PM »
From the transcript of the Paul Jay interview, called Trump-Putin and the Real Threats to Democracy (bolded mine):

Quote
Countries are very much like big companies. In fact, they’re made up of big companies, big corporations. And big corporations want to be dominant. They want to control the market. They want, you know, if not it, in their own country. They’d even like to control it globally. It leads to monopolies. And monopolies want to control everything. Well, monopolies in one country want to control everything, and monopolies from another want to control everything, and they bump heads.

(...)

So it’s not just about some personalities of a Putin, or a Trump. The system itself has war and this kind of global competition built right into its DNA. And so when we look at this issue of who’s an adversary and who’s a friend, at this level Trump speaks, he’s right.

(...)

Now, what does Trump represent? He represents a section of the elites that see that the real contention in the world for the United States is going to be China. So it makes sense in that frame of reference.

(...)

So what Trump said there is more or less true, but it’s very dangerous truth. Because these competitors, who are all nice guys, according to Trump, can turn into real enemies and real war, which is why this kind of supposedly liberal media that’s attacking these meetings and sounding more hawkish than, than even some of the Republicans, is really extraordinary; the way they’re feeding this kind of warlike appetite in the American psychology.

(...)

Maybe the Russians did these things to the American elections. Maybe they wanted a Trump victory as an outcome. Maybe they wanted to weaken the Clinton presidency, as people are accusing them of. Maybe it’s all true. But the truth of it is this is normal stuff in the competition between these big countries. And the reason it’s made such an issue now is because various forces want to wound Trump.

(...)

They want us to look at these things as Americans, like we’re all the same.

(...)

The oligarchy of Russia is an adversary of the Russian people and the American oligarchy is an adversary of the American people. Let’s start with that. We’re not all in the same boat here. So, so this issue of the people all up in arms about this summit, it’s from the, from the perspective of various sections of the American oligarchy. This is not what the American people need or want.

(...)

Well, let me say, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that the Russian state was involved in the attempt to manipulate the outcome of the elections.

How serious a threat is this, and how serious a story is it? So, it’s not a non-story. It’s not like we shouldn’t cover it. And at The Real News we certainly spent a lot of time trying to see if there’s real evidence that, in the public domain at least, that one can believe. And the main position we’ve had, and Aaron, you’ve been doing a lot of these interviews, is simply that we’re skeptical. That we’re not going to take this intelligence on faith. And it’s not that we don’t take it seriously.

(...)

So let’s say they did what they did. But what’s the bigger story? That the Russians did that? Or just, for example, that this billionaire Robert Mercer, who brings money, Bannon and Kellyanne Conway and Breitbart News, which he mostly owned, to Trump, and manipulate through Cambridge Analytica, do various kinds of studying of voter patterns, especially in swing states, and are able to message specific messages to individual people.

(...)

I still talk to people, intelligent, well-informed people, who never even heard the name Robert Mercer. It’s a far more important story to how the outcome of the election was manipulated by a far-right cabal very closely aligned with Netanyahu and Israel, allied with the Saudis. That’s a really big story. And so it’s not that the Russians aren’t a big story; I mean aren’t a story; but you know, where’s the big weight of the issues? And more importantly, given how destructive this Trump presidency is to the social safety net, to any kind of rational legislation that still exists in this country- and there wasn’t a heck of a lot of it, but they’re undoing what there was- given the fact that he’s a climate denier, I mean, what’s the bigger story? The fact that he’s undoing even the modest climate change legislation that existed? You know, pulling back EPA regulations on cars, allowing coal starting to drill everywhere any of these guys wants to drill, isn’t that a much bigger story than maybe, or even if, the Russians did whatever they did?

The point is that this Russia thing isn’t being driven by a real defense of values. Because the values of saving the planet, that’s a value. They’re not even talking about it. So what we’re trying to do with The Real News is talk about what’s, what’s important. We’re not discounting, yes, if the Russians did it, American government agencies have every right to tell the Russians to stay the hell out of American elections. And if somebody colluded with them, yeah, sure, arrest them. I mean, whatever. That’s fine. But it’s peanuts compared to the bigger issues.

Let me repeat that last bolded:

The point is that this Russia thing isn’t being driven by a real defense of values.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4234 on: July 17, 2018, 04:26:22 PM »
One of my favorite animators, Bill Plympton, has a new cartoon!
Enjoy:





« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:37:26 PM by jacksmith4tx »
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4235 on: July 17, 2018, 05:39:31 PM »
Why in the world would anyone object to the leaders of the worlds two major military powers speaking to each other?
Terry

SteveMDFP

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1166
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 91
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4236 on: July 17, 2018, 05:55:17 PM »
Why in the world would anyone object to the leaders of the worlds two major military powers speaking to each other?
Terry

Speaking with each other is not what any major voice is objecting to.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4237 on: July 17, 2018, 08:22:54 PM »
I've just watched the Greenwald-Cirincione discussion on Democracy Now!, and just like the exchange between Maté and Isikoff, I think it's a great conversation that needs to be had, and you won't find anywhere in corporate media. Everyone should watch it, regardless of what your beliefs are.

I'll quote one piece of the transcript that was posted in the Corporate Democrats thread, because in it Greenwald explains how it is possible to be against Trump and Putin, while at the same time opposing those other forces that are so detrimental to democracy and society. And to make that point he actually uses a quote by Cirincione (who seems like a really well-meaning, sympathetic man to me):

Quote
26:30

I also think that that last point that Joe made is actually an important one, and it does put people like me into a difficult position, which is, you know, on the one hand, of course I don’t think that Donald Trump is well intentioned and is going to have the diplomatic skill to negotiate complicated new agreements of trade and of arms control with very sophisticated regimes like the one in North Korea, or at least complicated regimes in North Korea, or in Russia.

On the other hand, as we’ve been discussing, unfortunately, he’s the only game in town. There is nobody else who’s saying that we ought to question NATO. Democrats, when you say we ought to question NATO, act like you’ve committed blasphemy. There is nobody else talking about tariffs and the unfairness of free trade agreements, except for a couple of fringe people within the Democratic Party.

Just like this week, when he said that the European Union was a foe, what he said was something that for a long time on the left was really kind of just uncontroversial orthodoxy, which is that of course the European Union is an economic competitor of the U.S., and a lot of what their trade practices are do harm the American worker.

We put up barriers against Chinese products entering the U.S., and yet the EU buys them and then sells them into the U.S., indirectly helping China circumvent those barriers in a way that directly harms U.S. workers.

This is something that people like Robert Reich and Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders have been talking about for a long time. So it does make it very difficult when the only person who’s raising these kinds of issues and talking about these things—we need to get along better with Russia and China, we need to reform these old, archaic, destructive institutions—is a megalomaniac, somebody who’s completely devoid of any positive human virtue, which is Donald Trump. So it puts you in the position of kind of trying to agree with him, while knowing that he’s really not going to be able to do anything about those in a positive way.

28:40

On the other hand, I don’t feel comfortable being aligned with people like Bill Kristol and David Frum and all of those Bush-era hawks who are now the best friends of MSNBC and the Democratic Party, either, because they’re not well intentioned, either.

And so, what I try and do is use Donald Trump and the kind of shifting alliances, that we started off by talking about, to open up a lot of the debates, that will remain closed if you only look at U.S. politics through the prism of the 2016 election and Republicans versus Democrats.

And I think the most important point is the one that, as I said, Joe made just this week, which is that until the Democratic Party figures out—and this is true not just of Democrats but of center-left parties all throughout Europe and here in Brazil—until they figure out how again to reconnect, not with the highly educated class and the rich and the metropolitan enclaves, but with the working class of these countries, that feel trampled on and ignored, and for that reason are turning to demagogues, we’re going to have more Donald Trumps and worse Donald Trumps, not just in the United States, but throughout the world.

And that is, for me, the greatest problem that we face politically.

That last paragraph nails it, in my opinion, and Russiagate and the obsession with Trump (to the point that even when he says semi-sensible things, people go insane) are huge obstacles to that happening. Which is exactly what the oligarchs and their lackeys want.

If the left doesn't find a way to overcome that and address the real issues that are at the root of this huge current political problem - the trampling and ignoring of the working class in favour of ever more wealth concentration - there will be more and worse Trumps in the future. Which brings us back to Corporate Democrats, who are doing everything they can to prevent the left from getting to the point where they can actually take on and hurt Trump and the GOP with a vision and ideas that appeal to the working class (and the young), but that's for the other thread.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4238 on: July 17, 2018, 09:14:09 PM »
Neven,
Quote
(to the point that even when he says semi-sensible things, people go insane)

compare, compare, compare*
Trump reading from a script (written by someone else 97% of the time).
Vs.
Trump normal mode of communication - stream-of-conscious straight from the Id sentence fragments.

Everything Trump says can be interpreted a dozen ways. It's just took him 5min. on National TV to explain several ways we all misunderstood his comments in the press conference.

I'm sure realTV will have even more interpretations of Trump-speak later today.

*Update: There are now at least half a dozen different official versions of the Helsinki press conference. The official White House version, which is different from the Russia's version and neither one matches the one from PBS, which is slightly different from the CNN/MSNBC/FOX versions.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/trump-putin-press-conference-transcript/565385/

We need a AI program just to compare all the different versions!  ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:14:31 AM by jacksmith4tx »
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4239 on: July 18, 2018, 01:40:06 AM »
(Continuing from the Democrats thread... But I'm now seriously fed up with the fun -- for some time. Enjoying summer is more important.)

So, now that things get serious, the Russiagate deniers get their panties in a knot...

Now this: climate / Russiagate alarmism / hysteria

Trying to exert influence over the electoral process in another country is something that has been going on between neighbors, not necessarily enemies, probably since the beginnings of democracies.
I have said that the Russiagate denial exhibited on this forum is very similar to climate denial. This one of Terry's (and Neven, and ...) is the analog of "climate has always changed".   :o

Of course, there's a very strong link between Corporate Democrats and Russiagate hysteria, but I'd still like to suggest you take your powerful arguments to the Russia thread.
(my emph.)

Sooner or later they will blame Hillary and/or Obama. Hahaaahahahaha...

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4240 on: July 18, 2018, 08:52:02 AM »
Won in translation.  ;)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4346
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 115
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4241 on: July 19, 2018, 07:27:38 AM »
Now this is interesting: claim that Trump authorized timing of russian indictments b4 helsinki:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-07-17/trump-said-to-decide-russia-indictments-should-come-pre-summit

sidd

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4242 on: July 19, 2018, 02:38:11 PM »
So I checked why Trumputin is a bit obsessed with Montenegro... Neven might find this interesting...

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-russian-military-spies-backed-attempt-assassinate-leader-montenegro-1007324
Quote
(...)
“Russia’s interest in Montenegro heightened several years ago. As the reliability of its naval base in Tartus, Syria became less certain, Russia began seeking alternatives. In September 2013, the Russian government requested a meeting with the Montenegrin Ministry of Defense to discuss the temporary moorage of Russian warships at the ports of Bar and Kotor,” Tuesday’s report reads. “By Moscow’s proposal, Russian ships would dock under a privileged status that would allow for the extensive use of territorial waters.”

Djukanovic, however, rejected these advances. In response, Russia set out to put people into power who would reverse the country’s Euro-Atlantic integration and allow Russia to gain a foothold in the country. That’s where the coup plot and Montenegro’s Democratic Front came in, according to Tuesday's report.

Montenegro’s Democratic Front (DF) is a right-wing opposition group made up of nationalist Serbs, Russophiles and a variety of fringe groups that oppose the country’s NATO membership. According to the report, the DF planned to declare victory during the 2016 parliamentary elections. Dikic and his crew, disguised as Montenegrin police, would open fire on pro-DF demonstrators, giving the appearance that pro-Djukanovic police were trying to prevent the DF from taking power. Meanwhile, the Russian military officials were standing by to offer assistance.

But the coup plot fell apart. (...)

Looks like a Trump adviser read the following Observer article, and thus Trump called Montenegrins "very agressive":
http://observer.com/2017/02/vladimir-putin-kremlin-montenegro-nato-eduard-shirokov/
Quote
(...)

Montenegro is a tiny country, but its people are famously tough and don’t like to be pushed around.

(...)

The two Russians were quickly expelled from the country. That several of the Serbs and Montenegrins who were arrested for their role in the plot had served with Russian forces fighting in eastern Ukraine—where Moscow’s proxy war has included the use of foreign mercenaries, including Slavic nationalists from Eastern Europe—appeared to be more than a coincidence. Security services in the Balkans and beyond suspected that Russian intelligence was the hidden hand behind the plot, which seemed plausible given the large amounts of cash and the late-model communications gear found in the possession of the coup plotters.

(...)

Now, however, there is solid evidence that the Kremlin was directly behind the plot against Montenegro. As explained this week by Milivoje Katnić, the country’s top special prosecutor, the coup and assassination plot was the handiwork of Moscow. The ringleader was Eduard Shirokov, an officer of Russia’s military intelligence service, known as GRU. This was a fully Kremlin-orchestrated clandestine operation to kill Prime Minister Djukanović and overthrow the government, Katnić elaborated.

Predrag Bosković, Montenegro’s defense minister, stated there is “not any doubt” that Russian intelligence officials were behind the plot, using Russian, Serbian, and Montenegrin volunteers to do the dirty work of shooting up the parliament and assassinating the prime minister. Western intelligence has assisted Montenegrin authorities in the inquiry, and American and British spy agencies—particularly NSA and its British partner, GCHQ—have compiled impressive evidence of Russian complicity behind the plot.

As reported by the Telegraph, signals intelligence, including intercepted phone calls and emails, makes clear that the Kremlin planned and organized the secret operation to use violence to keep Montenegro out of NATO. This conclusion has been confirmed to me by sources in the Intelligence Community, one of whom described the NSA and GCHQ intercepts showing Russian complicity as “ironclad—we have them cold.” How much of that SIGINT has been shared with Podgorica isn’t clear, but it was obviously enough to convince Montenegro that it could confidently call out Moscow for its malfeasance.

Moreover, Shirokov, the plotter-in-chief, was previously identified as a GRU officer by NATO. In 2014, he was expelled from Poland ...

(...)


(now back to the sun and my garden)

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4243 on: July 19, 2018, 06:17:11 PM »
@TerryM:
Quote
Actually I think Dennis Kucinich's policies are closer to those that I support. "Strength Through Peace" still has a nice ring to it.
Read his platform from 2008 and tell me what he had wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich_presidential_campaign,_2008

Haven't been around much, but you should know that we liked Kucinich, but he's too far out to get much support. I'm in favor of voting out the real monsters before I start attacking friends and allies. Cannibalizing friends and allies is a perfect way to enable real enemies of humanity and progress.

The point made that he did not singlehandedly defeat the Medicare for All option seems to miss most Berniebusters (and I'm not talking about most of Bernie's supporters, with whom I am broadly in agreement except when they indulge in said cannibalism). Obama's ACA is a flawed product because of intransigeant Republican and corporate opposition which exploited anything they could find. That opposition has not gone away, and it is not coming from Democrats. Democrats had a majority that could overcome that opposition for less than 5 months in 2009 (between seating Franken (another example of said obstruction) and the illness and death of Kennedy.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 06:39:26 PM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4244 on: July 19, 2018, 06:41:52 PM »
@Martin Gisser: Don't forget the infamous shove of the Montenegran Prime Minister when Trump wanted to be in front. Manners none and customs beastly.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 37
  • Likes Given: 202
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4245 on: July 19, 2018, 07:08:20 PM »
Putin's strumpet Trump is promoting a demand that former Russian Ambassador McFaul, who was targeted by Putin in Moscow when Putin thought he was promoting Putin opposition, be turned over. Anybody want to bet McFaul would be treated better than Putin's other victims, Navalny [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny, or Browder [http://time.com/5340545/bill-browder-vladimir-putin-magnitsky-act-donald-trump/]?

It is amazing to me that people here actually believe that corporate interests are promoting the Russia investigation. This is simply not true. The investigation is following the facts and revealing malfeasance by corporate entities like the NRA.

Quote
Browder is the founder and CEO of Hermitage Capital Management and was the largest foreign investor in Russia until 2005. Since 2009 when his lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, died in prison after uncovering a $230 million fraud committed by Russian government officials, Browder has been leading a campaign to expose Russia's endemic corruption and human rights abuses.

I wasn’t watching the Donald Trump–Vladimir Putin press conference from Helsinki. But when my phone started burning up with messages, I knew something was going on. I quickly discovered that Putin had mentioned me by name. No journalist had asked about me. He just brought me up out of the blue.

Putin offered to allow American investigators to interview the 12 Russian intelligence agents just indicted by Special Counsel Robert Mueller in exchange for allowing Russians to have access to me and those close to me. This is no idle threat. For the last ten years, I’ve been trying to avoid getting killed by Putin’s regime, and there already exists a trail of dead bodies connected to its desire to see me dead. Amazingly, Trump stood next to him, appearing to nod approvingly. He even later said that he considered it “an incredible offer.

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4246 on: July 20, 2018, 06:27:54 AM »

Pot kettle black perhaps?

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
Luke 23:34

What's obvious is not necessarily obvious to everyone.

So now your casting christian magic spells?
Trump=Mammon?
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4247 on: July 20, 2018, 07:15:03 AM »
Hey Trump is the greatest real-estate salesman in history and this is just one of those 'open house' events you do before you close the deal.

I'm kidding you.
Seriously if Mattis is OK with it we should all just relax. Mattis is still in command... Right?
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4248 on: July 20, 2018, 02:06:51 PM »
Again, unless someone can point me to a mainstream media source, the best analysis is done over at The Real News Network (no advertising, government or corporate funding!). They have a comprehensive overview with a sense of history that provides the context for everything that is taking place and tie all the interconnected pieces together, instead of the fragmented, clearly biased thinking I see almost everywhere else. Even if you don't agree with everything, this is how journalism should be done.

Another hour-long analysis, with some very strong moments (it was done live), by Paul Jay and Aaron Maté:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6500
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 215
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4249 on: July 20, 2018, 02:10:52 PM »
I mean, just look at this, a whole series about Russia and the rise of Putin. I haven't watched the entire series yet, but almost every series of interviews by Paul Jay I've seen, has been excellent:



At what media outlet do you see this level of explanation and analysis?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin