Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Russia, Russia, Russia  (Read 293011 times)

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4300 on: August 05, 2018, 04:59:16 PM »
If you believe in the Trumpian "deep state" you have bought the troll goods on sale. These are the true "deep state" believers. Do you really want to associate with "QAnon" and the likes of 4Chan/Cernowich https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/mike-cernovich? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/30/qanon-4chan-rightwing-conspiracy-theory-explained-trump

News on the Portland "Patriot Prayer" riot:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/patriot-prayer-portland-riot_us_5b383170e4b0f3c221a17a8f

and

Quote
Josh Marshall (@joshtpm)
    8/3/18, 9:15 PM
    Holy Crap, This Second Ted Cruz Ad Is Even More Absurd Than the One From this Afternoon. pic.twitter.com/2kBQp5vALD
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1025565911539957760/video/1

I'd agree that we progressives/liberals (not neoliberals) didn't used to care for the FBI et al., but at this point they're the only ones that have the knowledge and ability to bring down the fascist Trumpian state and the likes of the "Proud Boys" with their armaments and violence. Their allies/enablers and other sorts of kleptocrats have kidnapped both houses of Congress, local authorities, and much of the judiciary and local authorities, especially in red states. They also have control of much of the voting apparatus and quite a few tricks and techniques for suppressing/intimidating/stealing the vote to keep their minority in power.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 05:06:21 PM by Susan Anderson »

Hefaistos

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 340
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4301 on: August 05, 2018, 06:08:03 PM »
to be sure i got this right sidd, that's saying that adam carter is a fake nym and his "reports" and expertise is bs? thanks.
I am so unsurprised... 8)
+1

Not so fast! as this is apparently unsubstantiated smear against Adam Carter.
He replies in detail at Disobedient media, where copies of the nasty email communications with Campbell are included:

"Overall, as can be seen from his communications with me, it’s fairly evident that Campbell never had any desire to debate things or make a legitimate complaint, he doesn’t even care to understand Forensicator’s work, he’s just purely digging for smears and it shows."

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/08/deconstructing-campbells-smear-campaign-yields-a-blueprint-for-propaganda/

Mark mccarty sums it up: "As far as I can see, Campbell has not rebutted a single one of Adam’s conclusions, as catalogued on his website."
https://medium.com/@markfmccarty/the-despicable-doxxing-of-adam-carter-a-response-c3889ac6f0ef

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4302 on: August 05, 2018, 08:53:38 PM »
I'd agree that we progressives/liberals (not neoliberals) didn't used to care for the FBI et al., but at this point they're the only ones that have the knowledge and ability to bring down the fascist Trumpian state and the likes of the "Proud Boys" with their armaments and violence. Their allies/enablers and other sorts of kleptocrats have kidnapped both houses of Congress, local authorities, and much of the judiciary and local authorities, especially in red states. They also have control of much of the voting apparatus and quite a few tricks and techniques for suppressing/intimidating/stealing the vote to keep their minority in power.

The situation must be really desperate for leftists to place their hopes in the intelligence community, given that the latter will do everything to prevent the former from getting even a modicum of power. It's like entrusting your chickens to the fox and hope for the best.

Only the American people can prevent or dismantle a fascist state, whether Trumpian or just the regular. Remember, they are few.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4090
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4303 on: August 05, 2018, 09:09:39 PM »
Re: leftists placing hope in the intelligence community

Supporting the intelligence community are corporate democrats and a group of warmongers who have called for war for decades. Few leftists there.

But then there are very few leftists anywhere in the USA, as the term "left" is understood everywhere in the world outside the USA.

sidd

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4304 on: August 05, 2018, 09:37:32 PM »
Neven, if you would read my material for content instead of for something to discredit, you might realize I am reporting from my beleaguered home and very very worried. I'll take integrity where I can find it these days: it's getting rare, but mostly it's Democratic.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4305 on: August 05, 2018, 09:38:42 PM »
We interrupt thie program for a little Satire:

Quote
Oliver North Vows to Raise Money for the N.R.A. by Selling Arms to Iran

By Andy Borowitz https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/oliver-north-vows-to-raise-money-for-the-nra-by-selling-arms-to-iran

FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA (The Borowitz Report)—Asserting that “heroic measures” were needed to save the National Rifle Association from financial catastrophe, the N.R.A.’s president, Oliver North, announced plans to sell arms to Iran.

“Iran needs weapons, and, Lord knows, we have a lot of weapons lying around,” North told reporters on Sunday. “This is the definition of a win-win.”

North said that he came up with the idea of selling arms to Iran because “the Iranians were always great to deal with” and “never cared where the money was going to.”

The N.R.A. president said that his next move was to establish new contacts in Iran. “Back in the day, I remember there was an Ayatollah there, but I think it’s a new Ayatollah now,” he said. “I wish I could take a look at my old documents, but I guess I had them shredded.”

North said that, if Iran is not interested in purchasing arms, the cash-strapped organization would resort to other ways of raising funds, such as selling used office furniture or members of Congress.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4306 on: August 05, 2018, 09:49:13 PM »
Neven, if you would read my material for content instead of for something to discredit, you might realize I am reporting from my beleaguered home and very very worried. I'll take integrity where I can find it these days: it's getting rare, but mostly it's Democratic.

I'm not discrediting anything. It's clear that you are very, very worried, because otherwise you probably wouldn't hope for the intelligence community to take Trump down. The only problem is that grosso modo the agencies won't do too much that's in the interest of the majority of the American people. They can't. The system won't let them.

My next comment will be on topic.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4307 on: August 05, 2018, 09:56:11 PM »
One more, with apologies; as you point out, this is OT (but not entirely):

Quote
To travel abroad as an American in 2018 is to serve as a baffled explicator of scandal. No outsider quite understands what we are living through; we don’t even understand what we are living through, and trying to describe even the simplest of the ludicrously plausible conspiracy theories that dominate our current politics is not an easy business. At the moment, I am in France, a country that I have been visiting regularly since the George W. Bush era, when the dominant feeling, as a blue-aligned American, was shame at our President’s stupidity and headlong imperialist ambitions. The Obama years brought a resurgence of pride, the balm of sanity. Now I find myself met with something like pity, tinged with curiosity and commiseration. The United States poses a threat to the rest of the world, as usual. The commiseration comes from the fact that we now also pose a threat to ourselves.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/will-scandal-sink-emmanuel-macron [<- study of Macron is interesting too ...]

We need something, anything, to stop the headlong rush towards tragedy, spreading from the rot at the soul of the Republican power structure, which is becoming more fascistic and powerful by the day. If there is integrity (as there appears to be) in the FBI, Mueller, and the Southern District of New York, we'll take it. Putin only wants chaos, and Trump is his tool for that; it's not unlikely that the Russian oligarchy/mob who built up Trump's fortune when he was over a billion in debt has made him wholly subject to the mob. He acts like a whipped coward towards a mob enforcer there.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:19:40 PM by Susan Anderson »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4308 on: August 05, 2018, 10:23:08 PM »
But to get back on topic, this exchange between warmonger neocon Max Boot (columnist for the Washington Post, where democracy dies in darkness) and professor Stephen F Cohen is simply amazing. I will type out some excerpts later, because they're just too good (and true). Kulinski's comments are also absolutely spot on, in my opinion.



Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4309 on: August 05, 2018, 10:56:07 PM »
The most important excerpt (at 4:24):

Max Boot (ending a long statement): The striking thing to me is that, although he's willing to threaten North Korea, he's willing to threaten Iran, he never threatens Russia and that's why a lot of intelligence officials think that there is something highly suspect in the relationship between Putin and Trump.
Stephen Cohen: I have no idea what Mr Boot is talking about. he wants Trump to threaten Russia? Why would we threaten Russia? You've got two nuclear super powers...
Max Boot (interrupting, Cohen continues because of lag): Because they're attacking us, Russia is attacking us, professor Cohen. Russia is attacking us right now, according to Trump's own director of national intelligence.
Stephen Cohen: I've been studying Russia for 45 years. I've lived in Russia and I've lived here...
Max Boot (interrupting again, while Cohen continues because of lag): And you've been consistently a Russia apologist for 45 years.
Stephen Cohen: Russia hasn't att... Excuse me? What did you say to me?
Max Boot: I said you've been consistently an apologist for Russia in those last 45 years.
Stephen Cohen: I don't do defamation of people. I do serious analysis of serious international security problems. When people like you call people like me, and not only me, but people more eminent than me, an apologist for Russia , because we don't agree with your analysis, you are criminalizing diplomacy and détente, and you are the threat to American national security in this story. Why do you have to defame somebody you don't agree with? They used to do that in the old Soviet Union. We don't do that here. Well, we used to, but we need to stop it.
Anderson Cooper: So, finally, Stephen, you're saying Russia was not attacking the United States?
Stephen Cohen: I know what you're talking about: during the 2016 election Russia attacked the United States. Yes, I don't think they attacked the United States.
Max Boot (interrupting yet again): You just denied being an apologist for Russia, you're apologizing for Russia as we speak.
Stephen Cohen: Well, you didn't let me finish, you don't know what I'm going to say. The meddling began, Mr Cooper, the meddling began right after the Russian Revolution, when Woodrow Wilson sent American troops to fight in the Russian civil war.
Max Boot (interrupting yet again): Oh, please.
Stephen Cohen: The meddling began on the Soviet and Russian side - let me finish - when the communists formed the Communist International in 1919. Ever since then Moscow has meddled in our politics, we have meddled in theirs. This is low-level stuff what went on, it is not an attack.  It is not 911. It is not Pearl Harbor. It is not Russian paratroopers descending on Washington. This kind of hyperbole, an attack on America, suggests we need to attack Russia. So, you've got Mr Boot saying that Trump should threaten Russia? With what does he want to attack?
Max Boot (interrupts yet again): Try sanctions.

What an absolute piece of work that Max Boot is. I've read up on the guy. There's your fascist right there. What a lowlife. How does a warmongering neocon like this get to go on CNN and write for the Washington Post? How is that even possible? And you think Trump is the problem? This goes so much deeper.

Kudos to Stephen Cohen for keeping his cool and replying like he did.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4310 on: August 06, 2018, 12:28:05 AM »
When you see Cohen and Chomsky as the problem, and look to the FBI and the CIA for solutions, you have pulled so far away from the historic Left in America that you need find another label for your position.


I've been consistent in my politics since 1963, and still have a few bumps in my skull from the truncheons swung by Right Wing Storm Troopers lead and advised by the spooks you now view as representative of "integrity".
Was there integrity in their attempted blackmail of MLK? Did they do right by David Koresh's toddlers? Did Mueller tell the American public the truth in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq?
I could go on, and on, and on without ever stumbling upon an instance of when the FBI acted with integrity when an alternative was available.


The Left has had a long and honorable history in America. We fought for all of the programs that made life in the States tolerable for those that weren't born to rich white parents.
Continue with your nonsense if you must, but don't dare to call yourselves Leftists, Liberals or Progressives. We brought honor to those labels, often at huge personal cost. When you sided with the enemy you lost the right to identify with us.


Quislings of America might be appropriate.
Terry

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4311 on: August 06, 2018, 08:29:20 AM »
What an absolute piece of work that Max Boot is. I've read up on the guy. There's your fascist right there. What a lowlife. How does a warmongering neocon like this get to go on CNN and write for the Washington Post? How is that even possible? And you think Trump is the problem? This goes so much deeper.

Kudos to Stephen Cohen for keeping his cool and replying like he did.

Max Boot was impolite for interrupting. I give you that.
And his answers were not that strong either.

Now can you take a step back, and see this in the context of what Anderson Cooper mentioned :

The press conference in Helsinki where Trump preferred Putin's words over the assessment of his own intelligence agency.

Here is one report (of many) :

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/17/629601233/trumps-helsinki-bow-to-putin-leaves-world-wondering-whats-up

Quote
Given the attitude with which President Trump has greeted all news of the Russian interference in the 2016 election, his performance in Helsinki on Monday should have come as no surprise.

And yet there was surprise — even shock — when the president of the United States stood onstage alongside Russian President Vladimir Putin and accepted the former KGB officer's denials regarding that interference.

Trump was asked directly which one he believed: his own intelligence community or Putin. In so many words, Trump gave the answer: Putin. (Via tweet, Trump would later seek to clarify his response.)

Here is Trump's tweet :

Quote
As I said today and many times before, “I have GREAT confidence in MY intelligence people.” However, I also recognize that in order to build a brighter future, we cannot exclusively focus on the past – as the world’s two largest nuclear powers, we must get along! #HELSINKI2018

Trump wants to ignore Russian interference in the 2016 elections, ignore Russia's annexation of Crimea, and the continued Russian occupation of Moldova (Transnistria), the continued Russian occupation of Georgia (South Ossetia), the continued Russian occupation of Ukraine (Donbass), the downing of MH17, the Russian aggression in Syria (there is a wiki page about Russian Syrian hospital bombing) etc etc, all because "we must get along".

Well, I'm sorry, but the past matters, especially if it is unsettled :

Using only ONE of Russia's actions as an argument, my feelings about this Helsinki summit are probably best expressed by Anthony Maslin, the father who lost all of his children and his father in law when the Russian Military (the 53rd Brigade from Kursk) shot down MH17 and then lied about it :

https://www.facebook.com/anthony.maslin.5

Quote
Donald Trump
President of the United States

Mr Trump, you invented and speak a lot about "fake news”. But lets try talking about something thats not fake… lets call them irrefutable facts.

That passenger flight MH17 was shot out of the sky and 298 innocent people were murdered is an irrefutable fact.
That the plane was hit by a Russian missile has been proven to be an irrefutable fact.
That this killed our 3 beautiful children and their grandfather, and destroyed our life and many other lives in the process, is an irrefutable fact.
That this happened 4 years ago today… is an irrefutable fact.
That the man whose arse you’ve just been kissing did this, and continues to lie about it, is an irrefutable fact.

So you dont need to look it up, irrefutable means impossible to deny or disprove.

It's not anger that I feel towards the two of you, its something much, much worse.

It's pity.


You have no empathy for your fellow man, and you clearly have no idea what love is.

So you have nothing.

Tell me, why do we have to ignore Russian aggression, and "get along" so desperately ?
Why can't we acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable ?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 09:31:39 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4312 on: August 06, 2018, 09:36:25 AM »
Shall I now post thousands of quotes by brown people whose children died or were maimed due to US military actions? No, it would be a very weak argument for condoning hysteria and the branding of people who disagree with your analysis as 'apologists'.

You hate Russia, Rob, we get it.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4313 on: August 06, 2018, 10:02:29 AM »
Shall I now post thousands of quotes by brown people whose children died or were maimed due to US military actions? No, it would be a very weak argument for condoning hysteria and the branding of people who disagree with your analysis as 'apologists'.

You hate Russia, Rob, we get it.

Huh ?
Why can't we acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4314 on: August 06, 2018, 10:12:11 AM »
There is a bench in front of the Russian Embassy in The Hague, where we are still waiting for answers.
For example, what was Russian BUK 332 from the 53rd Brigade from Kursk doing in Snizhne on July 17th ? And who ordered them to fire a missile ?

This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4315 on: August 06, 2018, 10:22:43 AM »
Tell me, why do we have to ignore Russian aggression, and "get along" so desperately ?

There's a difference between 'not ignoring' and 'excessive media hype'. Furthermore, Russia - far from being perfect innocent - is clearly being used as a scapegoat by different parties who want to further their political agendas by riling up people like you. The effects of this are that it is making both Putin and Trump stronger.

And, last but not least, all of this is pushing for war, even if you're too naive to see that, or don't care because you feel so righteous. The Russian and American people can't afford that, not just because of the insane nuclear arms race renaissance, but also because AGW needs to be solved, and some hyped up narratives about Georgia or Donetsk can't take precedence over that, just because three white tourist kids got blown out of the sky (as tragic as it is).

Quote
Why can't we acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable ?

First of all, you also need to acknowledge the aggression of your own country and hold it accountable, because it's playing a HUGE role in all this. Trump was 100% right when he said that both countries have made mistakes.

Second of all, a thirst for revenge out of righteous indignation has never solved anything.

And third, again, the amount of energy and attention that is invested in all this is out of all proportion, not just on this forum, but everywhere. It's because there's so much propaganda involved in all this, and because too many people are susceptible to it, especially now that so many good people have lost their critical thinking skills because of Trump.

We need to get our priorities straight, and for that we need vision and ideas. Because you're not going to stem the tide that Trump represents with this Russiagate hyped bullshit. And you're not going to get Russia to change the way you want it to. You're achieving the exact opposite.

Trump needs to be beaten at the ballot, by a movement of people who elect true representatives of the people, not pretty actors who serve concentrated wealth. And it'll help when these new leaders can continue to work on a détente with Russia, and not be in a bind, because they felt compelled to participate in the current McCarthyite frenzy of American exceptionalism.

Please, stop this tantrum.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4316 on: August 06, 2018, 10:33:44 AM »
Tell me, why do we have to ignore Russian aggression, and "get along" so desperately ?

There's a difference between 'not ignoring' and 'excessive media hype'. Furthermore, Russia - far from being perfect innocent - is clearly being used as a scapegoat by different parties who want to further their political agendas by riling up people like you. The effects of this are that it is making both Putin and Trump stronger.

And, last but not least, all of this is pushing for war, even if you're too naive to see that, or don't care because you feel so righteous. The Russian and American people can't afford that, not just because of the insane nuclear arms race renaissance, but also because AGW needs to be solved, and some hyped up narratives about Georgia or Donetsk can't take precedence over that, just because three white tourist kids got blown out of the sky (as tragic as it is).

Geez, Neven. What's going on with you ?
You really think the Trump/Putin alliance will solve AGW ? That would be hilarious.

And by the way, with MH17 298 people got "blown out of the sky" by Putin's military, including 70 kids, of which 3 of them were Anthony Maslin's.
You should at the very least respect his opinion, not just because he suffered more than anyone here, but also because he is right.

Acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 10:53:40 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4317 on: August 06, 2018, 11:19:33 AM »
snip....

Geez, Neven. What's going on with you ?
You really think the Trump/Putin alliance will solve AGW ? That would be hilarious.
snip..


No, but if a real war breaks out between the US and Russia - NOBODY will give a damn about the climate- today's or in 100 years.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4318 on: August 06, 2018, 12:04:46 PM »
Acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable.

Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party, just because neocon fascists like Max Boot want me to.

It's disproportionate, Rob, and the reason it's disproportionate is because it's being used as political propaganda by certain groups who want to stay in control. This frenzy is highly noxious to any possible progress.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4319 on: August 06, 2018, 12:27:09 PM »
I posted this earlier, but they broke it up in segments:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4320 on: August 06, 2018, 12:36:05 PM »
Here we have the Sean Hannity of the 'Left' again:



A tweet is also quoted:

Quote
A top-rated daily news show has spent close to two years now, devoting a majority of its airtime to proof-by-assertion arguments promoting a xenophobic conspiracy theory, calculated to benefit a political party.

That's it in a nutshell. It's been a massive two-year diversion, interspersed with some Stormy Daniels and other outrageous shit, so nobody has to invest energy in thinking about how to change this screwed up system. And all it has done, is increase the risk of four more years of hysteria, and symptoms that are way, way worse than a narcissistic clown like Trump.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 988
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4321 on: August 06, 2018, 01:13:21 PM »
The effects of this are that it is making both Putin and Trump stronger.
I think people like you are desperately trying to make Trumputin stronger, by turning a blind eye and accusing realists of "hate" or "alarmism" or "warmongering", etc.

Quote
And, last but not least, all of this is pushing for war, even if you're too naive to see that, or don't care because you feel so righteous.
Why should sanctions lead to hot war?

Quote
because AGW needs to be solved,
Trumputin are the biggest obstacle. The last stand of the fossil oligarchs. Trumputin are at war with the planet.

Quote
just because three white tourist kids got blown out of the sky (as tragic as it is).
There you go again
Quote
Second of all, a thirst for revenge out of righteous indignation has never solved anything.
and again

... ... ... ... ...

Quote
It's because there's so much propaganda involved in all this, and because too many people are susceptible to it, especially now that so many good people have lost their critical thinking skills because of Trump.
In reality, Trump got elected because so many good people have lost their critical thinking. -- And now they can't return to critical thinking because their ego needs to defend this lapse.
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 988
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4322 on: August 06, 2018, 01:32:16 PM »
The situation must be really desperate for leftists to place their hopes in the intelligence community, given that the latter will do everything to prevent the former from getting even a modicum of power. It's like entrusting your chickens to the fox and hope for the best.

Only the American people can prevent or dismantle a fascist state, whether Trumpian or just the regular. Remember, they are few.
Wasn't that the leftist narrative: The situation was so desperate that The People placed their hope in Trump. They entrusted their chicken to the wolf (instead of the fox, Hillary) and hoped for the best.

Because, for the "critical thinker" wolf equals fox.

Now things are way more desperate. Anybody who believes Trump over the intelligence professionals (incl. those of Britain, Estonia, Spain, Australia, ...) needs exploratory brain surgery.
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4323 on: August 06, 2018, 01:55:25 PM »
Now things are way more desperate. Anybody who believes Trump over the intelligence professionals (incl. those of Britain, Estonia, Spain, Australia, ...) needs exploratory brain surgery.

Why always the binary choice? Is it because you are a mathematician? There's a third option: Believe neither, oppose both.

Quote
I think people like you are desperately trying to make Trumputin stronger, by turning a blind eye and accusing realists of "hate" or "alarmism" or "warmongering", etc.

I don't know how to get rid of Putin, because Russia is a complex country. And the US is far more important for what happens in the world. Russia and Putin are being inflated for propaganda purposes (and Russian journalists and the opposition are lamenting this, saying it only makes Putin stronger).

So, I don't know about Russia, but you can get rid of Trump only at the ballot box, by attacking his policies and showing his hypocrisy (he's part of the swamp/establishment), not by focussing almost exclusively on Russiagate and scandals. Because that only makes him stronger. This isn't some exotic theory, it makes perfect sense. It's all negative energy, and a PR vampire like Trump feeds off of that.

Sanders has shown the way to fight both Trump and the neocons/neolibs. But Sanders is not enough, it will take a movement with authentic spokespeople - not pretty actors that hypnotize with rhetoric - who refuse corporate donations and fight for issues that are at the top of the list for the majority of Americans (Russiagate is at the bottom).

Quote
Why should sanctions lead to hot war?

Do I really have to explain this? If you don't talk to each other, if you call back your diplomats, or expel those of the other, if you keep pumping up the rhetoric to score points at the home front, it creates a situation where things can suddenly escalate really quickly. Never mind the fact that both Russia alleges to have nuclear weapons that the US can't stop, and the US is now going to spend a trillion dollars to do something about that. It's nuts.

Quote
Trumputin are the biggest obstacle. The last stand of the fossil oligarchs. Trumputin are at war with the planet.

I absolutely agree, and so it is of vital importance to choose the right strategy to prevent them from dominating. Russiagate ain't it. But I'm sure it feels real good in the underbelly, and all kinds of chemicals are secreted by the tribal gland in the brain. Beat your chests, you traitors!
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4324 on: August 06, 2018, 03:09:45 PM »
That only 1 percent of Americans have bought into the "Russia is our number one threat' meme after being subjected to a constant barrage of anti-Putin, anti-Russian propaganda says good things about the oft maligned American public.


Is it possible that after decades of lying about almost everything, the media's talking heads are finally being recognized as being nothing more than spokesmen for General Motors, Lockheed Martin, Hostess Twinkies, or whoever paid for tonight's Hour of Hate?


Congratulations on your perspicacity, I really didn't think you had it in you.
Terry

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 988
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4325 on: August 06, 2018, 03:35:36 PM »
Now things are way more desperate. Anybody who believes Trump over the intelligence professionals (incl. those of Britain, Estonia, Spain, Australia, ...) needs exploratory brain surgery.

Why always the binary choice? Is it because you are a mathematician? There's a third option: Believe neither, oppose both.
Russiagate is an either-or question. Either it is serious or it is not. I could declare it irrelevant (third option). Having watched in 2016 I do not. Trump is a liar, his whole persona rests on lies. Therefore I believe the spooks who contradict him: It is serious.

But not just for this logic. What the spooks say is fucken consistent (I have watched closely in 2016).

------------------------------
Back in my university life I had to check and grade piles of maths homework, plus exams and seminar papers. Pure logic alone doesn't help for such a job, if you want to get it done in finite time. You also need an intuitive sense for (in)consistency and muddled/clear argument. (And this work also trains this sense.) So, first a smell test of the paper, then checking the details for the grading.

My nose tells me the Russiagate deniers and lukewarmers are inconsistent and muddled. (Wishful thinking, ideo-logical brain damage, emotional rejection of inconvenient truths, eager embrace of convenient fake stuff, making up stuff, etc. etc.)
And almost every time I check some detail I find my intuition vindicated.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 03:45:14 PM by Martin Gisser »
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4090
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4326 on: August 06, 2018, 10:13:16 PM »
"Is it possible that after decades of lying about almost everything, the media's talking heads are finally being recognized as being nothing more than spokesmen for General Motors, Lockheed Martin, Hostess Twinkies, or whoever paid for tonight's Hour of Hate?"

Yes, not only possible, but is happening and has been happening for decades. No one believes the "official" lies anymore. This change is accelerating, more and more the talking heads are recognized as liars.

Hence Trump. If all of the powers that be are liars and thieves, choose the one who is most likely to break things. Most people cannot live with the status quo any longer,  they see themselves and their loved ones being fed to the insatiable maws of the oligarchy.

Trump is a symptom. Getting rid of Trump will not cure the disease. If the lot of the dispossessed does not improve, Trump will be merely the first of many horrors.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4327 on: August 07, 2018, 07:22:08 AM »
Acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable.

Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party

We were talking about Russia's actions and MH17 specifically.
When I first asked to hold Russia accountable for MH17 you told me to "stop this tantrum."
Now you want to hold "EVERYONE" accountable for this crime ?

Seriously, Neven, can't you just face the fact that only ONE party (Russia) shot down this airliner, and caused the death of 298 innocent people ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4328 on: August 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM »
snip... Trump got elected because so many good people have lost their critical thinking. -- And now they can't return to critical thinking because their ego needs to defend this lapse.

Nope, because Hillary was a terrible candidate. Almost any other Dem ,even a potato, would have won.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4329 on: August 07, 2018, 08:47:02 AM »

Trump is a symptom. Getting rid of Trump will not cure the disease. If the lot of the dispossessed does not improve, Trump will be merely the first of many horrors.

sidd
sidd

Trump is indeed a horror, but have any of the recent presidents not committed horrific acts in one theater or another?
Some were objectively less horrendous, some much worse, but there hasn't been one during my rather long lifetime who hasn't at some point horrified my rather jaded sense of justice.


If the voting public is indeed beginning to think, there may yet be hope that they'll elect someone who will act in their, (and our) best interest.
Terry


magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 68
  • Likes Given: 104
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4330 on: August 07, 2018, 07:20:02 PM »
Acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable.

Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party

We were talking about Russia's actions and MH17 specifically.
When I first asked to hold Russia accountable for MH17 you told me to "stop this tantrum."
Now you want to hold "EVERYONE" accountable for this crime ?

Seriously, Neven, can't you just face the fact that only ONE party (Russia) shot down this airliner, and caused the death of 298 innocent people ?

your turning the words in his (everyone's) mouth as you feel fit, he never meant to hold everyone accountable for MH17 you just injected that event to make your point like so often.

be happy that he's so patient and let's us post all that BS each day.
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4090
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4331 on: August 07, 2018, 10:18:33 PM »
" hope that they'll elect someone who will act in their, (and our) best interest."

If such a candidate were allowed to become a choice, perhaps. But the two party electoral system in the USA are "two wings of the same bird of prey," as Debs pointed out so long ago, and have not countenanced such a candidate to become a choice. But there is hope, their grip loosens as we saw when Trump took the reublican nomination and Sanders alsmos did the same on the "other" side.

We shall see.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4332 on: August 08, 2018, 08:51:29 AM »
Acknowledge Russian aggression and hold them accountable.

Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party

We were talking about Russia's actions and MH17 specifically.
When I first asked to hold Russia accountable for MH17 you told me to "stop this tantrum."
Now you want to hold "EVERYONE" accountable for this crime ?

Seriously, Neven, can't you just face the fact that only ONE party (Russia) shot down this airliner, and caused the death of 298 innocent people ?

your turning the words in his (everyone's) mouth as you feel fit, he never meant to hold everyone accountable for MH17 you just injected that event to make your point like so often.

be happy that he's so patient and let's us post all that BS each day.


I may be wrong, but I've re-read the exchange on this, and it seems rather clear that Neven referred to Russian aggression, and MH17 specifically when he wrote "Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable.".

For example, he explicitly did NOT want to resort to ALL forms of aggression (which would be what-about-ism) on this thread :
Quote
Shall I now post thousands of quotes by brown people whose children died or were maimed due to US military actions? No, it would be a very weak argument...

Also, it was in the context of Russian aggression that he wrote :

Quote
Trump was 100% right when he said that both countries have made mistakes.

even though neither he nor Trump gave any example of a mistake that the US made Re Russia.

And it was in the context of Russia's downing of MH17 (and my quote of Anthony Maslin) that he wrote "stop this tantrum".

So it seems very clear to me that when he wrote "Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party" that it was regarding Russian aggression (and MH17 specifically), and that he believes that multiple parties were at fault.

I challenge that opinion, arguing that only ONE party was responsible for downing MH17.

I let Neven clarify if he meant something else.

Also, let's take a step back for a moment. There are many here who point out RussiaGate "hysteria". In Neven's words :

Quote
"the amount of energy and attention that is invested in all this is out of all proportion, not just on this forum, but everywhere".

Here is the thing : Russia does a lot of bad things, and they lie about them, blaming others or the victims. That does not sit right with many people. For example, MH17 is at the top of my list as a blatant act of Russian aggression, and the lies out of Russia on this subject sicken me. I see that Max Boot feels very strongly about Russia's cyber attacks during the 2016 US elections. And many other people reprehend Russia's aggression in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, the Skripal case, Syria bombing of hospitals and mosques, etc etc.

A response to all this is not "out of proportion", unless you don't care or want to ignore or deny what Russia is doing.

It's really just people being upset about all of the bad behavior of the Putin government.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:50:53 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4333 on: August 08, 2018, 10:27:28 AM »
Quote
It's really just people being upset about all of the bad behavior of the Putin government.

Those people aren't aware of how buttons are being pressed in their brains. And those buttons aren't pressed to make this world a better place. This excessive focus on Russia as the cause of all trouble, is leading to nothing good. Because it can't, especially if its foundation is American exceptionalism and there is no room for context or nuance.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Hefaistos

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 340
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4334 on: August 08, 2018, 06:37:38 PM »
Quote
It's really just people being upset about all of the bad behavior of the Putin government.

Those people aren't aware of how buttons are being pressed in their brains. And those buttons aren't pressed to make this world a better place. This excessive focus on Russia as the cause of all trouble, is leading to nothing good. Because it can't, especially if its foundation is American exceptionalism and there is no room for context or nuance.

A good comparison is between how Russia is treated in Western MSM and by politicians, and how Israel is treated.
After all, Israel occupies a lot of foreign territory (Golan heights, West bank, East Jerusalem), performs ethnic cleansing in occupied territories, builds incredible walls to separate the God-chosen, superior Jewish people from the inferiors, the non-Jews, starves the population in Gaza etc., as part of what looks like an apartheid policy. For this, the Israeli regime is rewarded not with sanctions, but with active US sponsorship and general political support from the West.
Indeed, our 'buttons' are pressed.

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4335 on: August 08, 2018, 06:48:25 PM »
Quote
It's really just people being upset about all of the bad behavior of the Putin government.

Those people aren't aware of how buttons are being pressed in their brains. And those buttons aren't pressed to make this world a better place. This excessive focus on Russia as the cause of all trouble, is leading to nothing good. Because it can't, especially if its foundation is American exceptionalism and there is no room for context or nuance.

Ah, need to wipe at least half of Americans off the face of the earth, including me. I'm not an exceptionalist, but your definition is broad and appears to include most legitimate news organizations in the US, and many Democrats in office, who are slaving away trying to overcome the real enemies. You seem unable to accept that all government except dictatorships are subject to compromise, and people muddle along as best they can. Last I looked, Austria's government is no saint either - https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/893773/Austria-Sebastian-Kurz-Heinz-Christian-Strache-Nazis-Far-right-Vienna-Marine-Le-Pen. In my opinion, you appear to be unaware of your own buttons, and are buying a lot of material exploiting conflict and chaos among good people. By the way, lately Elizabeth Warren is also being smeared as being in the pockets of corporate America. Nothing could be further from the truth.

@Mostly lurking: No, Bernie would not have won in 2016, no matter how strongly the assertion is made.

mostly_lurking

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4336 on: August 08, 2018, 06:49:55 PM »

A good comparison is between how Russia is treated in Western MSM and by politicians, and how Israel is treated.
After all, Israel occupies a lot of foreign territory (Golan heights, West bank, East Jerusalem), performs ethnic cleansing in occupied territories, builds incredible walls to separate the God-chosen, superior Jewish people from the inferiors, the non-Jews, starves the population in Gaza etc., as part of what looks like an apartheid policy. For this, the Israeli regime is rewarded not with sanctions, but with active US sponsorship and general political support from the West.
Indeed, our 'buttons' are pressed.

All the marked is basically wrong.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 06:54:56 PM by mostly_lurking »

mostly_lurking

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 21
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4337 on: August 08, 2018, 06:51:40 PM »

@Mostly lurking: No, Bernie would not have won in 2016, no matter how strongly the assertion is made.
Thnx to a corrupt DNC we'll never know

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4338 on: August 09, 2018, 12:03:33 AM »
Last I looked, Austria's government is no saint either - https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/893773/Austria-Sebastian-Kurz-Heinz-Christian-Strache-Nazis-Far-right-Vienna-Marine-Le-Pen.

Yes, Europe also has its problems, because an inauthentic left has completely forgotten how to conceptualize a vision based on universal principles and hundreds of years of humanist thought, and through its corrupt(-looking) impotence giving the far right a field day. Remember, neoliberalism is a global phenomenon, and so we see the same symptoms in many places. It is a systemic problem, after all. There's a context and a history. This didn't just happen.

But back on-topic.

Susan, do you think that...

A) There is an excessive focus on Russia as the source of all evil? Relatively speaking, that is.
B) That this excessive focus could ultimately have negative consequences (like worse versions of Trump)?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 988
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4339 on: August 09, 2018, 02:08:33 AM »
In my opinion, you appear to be unaware of your own buttons, and are buying a lot of material exploiting conflict and chaos among good people. ...
Ditto.

-------------------

Most people cannot live with the status quo any longer,  they see themselves and their loved ones being fed to the insatiable maws of the oligarchy.
And so they happily fed themselves to the greatest liar and thief and representative of the worst of oligarchy (which is not a monolith)?

I can't help declare this utterly insanely ridiculous...  :o
(Even without the Putin thing  8) )

Seriously, this is a death spiral of stupidity. Been watching it since Ronald Reagan. Looks like the stupid want to suffer, and vote for more suffering, so they can complain more of suffering.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 02:14:34 AM by Martin Gisser »
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4340 on: August 09, 2018, 09:01:09 AM »
Fine, I acknowledge ALL aggression and want to hold EVERYONE accountable. I'm not going to focus exclusively on one party, just because neocon fascists like Max Boot want me to.

This comment still has more beef.
Fist of all, I understand that you don't want to blame Russia for its own aggression. It is not the first time you do that. I don't agree with that opinion, especially when we are talking about MH17. We need to hold Russia accountable for its actions, not try to hush-hush it away with what-about-ism.

But there is more in this statement. You use name calling ("neocon fascists like Max Boot"), which I think is highly inappropriate.

This is Max Boot on Wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Boot

Quote
In general, Boot considers himself to be a "natural contrarian".[30] He identifies as a conservative, once joking that "I grew up in the 1980s, when conservatism was cool".[31] He is in favor of limited government at home and American leadership abroad. He strongly opposed Trump's presidential candidacy in 2016[32] and has been highly critical of the Republican Party.[33] Boot was critical of the nomination of Rex Tillerson to the position of Secretary of State, believing him to be problematically pro-Russian, and subsequently called on Tillerson to resign.[34]

and

Quote
In an opinion piece for Foreign Policy in September 2017, Max Boot outlines his views thusly: "I am socially liberal: I am pro-LGBTQ rights, pro-abortion rights, pro-immigration. I am fiscally conservative: I think we need to reduce the deficit and get entitlement spending under control. I am pro-environment: I think that climate change is a major threat that we need to address. I am pro-free trade: I think we should be concluding new trade treaties rather than pulling out of old ones.

Now that does not sound like a "fascist" to me.
In fact, little of this, specifically the bolded parts, I could disagree with, which suggest that this guy is multiple steps up from Trump, who believes AGW is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 09:23:24 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4341 on: August 09, 2018, 09:28:19 AM »
Most people cannot live with the status quo any longer,  they see themselves and their loved ones being fed to the insatiable maws of the oligarchy.
And so they happily fed themselves to the greatest liar and thief and representative of the worst of oligarchy (which is not a monolith)?

I can't help declare this utterly insanely ridiculous...  :o
(Even without the Putin thing  8) )

+1. I think sidd had a lapse of reasoning when he made that statement.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4342 on: August 09, 2018, 10:12:37 AM »
Fist of all, I understand that you don't want to blame Russia for its own aggression. It is not the first time you do that. I don't agree with that opinion, especially when we are talking about MH17. We need to hold Russia accountable for its actions, not try to hush-hush it away with what-about-ism.

Sure, I agree, but it doesn't have to be our nr 1 priority and definitely doesn't deserve the excessive media attention it gets, solely for political reasons that are internal to US politics. There are some very nasty aspects to Russia, but to make Russia the source of all evil, is propaganda to further the interests of some very nasty aspects of other countries (mainly the US).

Quote
But there is more in this statement. You use name calling ("neocon fascists like Max Boot"), which I think is highly inappropriate.

Now that does not sound like a "fascist" to me.

Rob, I know you have a scientific/literal mind, but you cannot take words or texts at face value. Trump will say about himself that he is a genius. Does this automatically make him a genius?

Max Boot is a neocon, like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Kristol, Perl, and all those other lowlifes who have caused so much misery all around the world in the past two decades. Neoconservatism and fascism overlap in important ways. People like Max Boot shouldn't be let near any camera or microphone (they can start their own YouTube channel if they want, just like Alex Jones), but corporate media will gladly bend over and give these snakes a slot. Because they are powerful and they promote establishment narratives that most efficiently increase and further concentrate wealth.

Quote
In fact, little of this, specifically the bolded parts, I could disagree with, which suggest that this guy is multiple steps up from Trump, who believes AGW is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.

Rob, at some point you are going to have to admit, if only to yourself, that you have neoconservative sympathies. You are simply pro-American Empire, because it is inherently a force for good, right?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4343 on: August 09, 2018, 11:00:32 AM »
Here's a good piece on Max Boot, called The Pathetic Rehabilitation of Max Boot.

Here it is in full (emphasis mine):

Quote
The Pathetic Rehabilitation of Max Boot

Since he held himself out as a courageous conservative critic of Donald Trump during the presidential campaign last year, Max Boot has enjoyed something of a career revival. He is regularly feted on MSNBC and given prominent space in the New York Times to opine on how the Republican Party sold its soul in capitulating to Trump. Now, it might be true that the Republican Party did in some sense “sell its soul” in accommodating Trump’s eccentricities, vulgarities, and unorthodoxies; that’s a legitimate line of inquiry. But concurrent with that dynamic is that a coterie of once-discredited neoconservative pseudo-intellectuals, who long ago should’ve been permanently cast out of respectable opinionating society, have been rehabilitated and embraced by the liberal commentariat — a commentariat whose sole and unabiding objective is to throw anything and everything at Trump and see what sticks, because it fulfills their current political (and especially commercial) imperatives.

To clarify: it’s perfectly viable to diverge with someone on core principles, but agree with them on a discrete concern. For example, a libertarian and a leftist might agree on a narrow question pertaining to military intervention, but not have common cause on other things. So, the notion of cross-ideological agreement isn’t what’s at issue here. Rather, what’s at issue is that the liberals and neoconservatives have a critique of Trump which increasingly appears identical — in the sense that both the liberal critique and the neoconservative critique are grounded in the same core principles.

At least in the case of the neoconservatives, you can argue that they’re being consistent; they’ve demanded a belligerent international posture as an essential precept of their ideological project for years. But in the case of Democrats and liberals — whose foreign policy views, in the main, are now virtually indistinguishable from neoconservatives — their shift often looks like nothing more than pure partisan machination, the kind of cynical move based entirely on simple, surface-level aversion to the sitting president rather than any reasoned positioning. Trump inspires such visceral rage in liberals that this has become their central organizing principle: opposition to Trump, no matter from what angle. And because a certain strain of neoconservative thought also runs in opposition to Trump, liberals are eager to embrace it.

So after a slew of fawning media appearances in which he was heralded as the only enlightened conservative left standing in the Trump era, Max Boot appeared on the Tucker Carlson show last week:



It fell to Tucker to actually probe the assumptions underlying Boot’s critique of Trump in relation to Russia. Yes: perhaps Tucker has opportunistic reasons for doing this, as his Fox News audience is likely to be overwhelmingly pro-Trump and to view the whole Russia controversy as bogus. But even so, it’s an indictment of the current media climate that only Tucker would be in a position where challenging the neoconservative pablum being espoused on national TV is seen as politically or commercially advantageous. Boot, whose hideously blemished track record is typically obscured in all his other friendly media appearances, was actually confronted by Tucker on his history of profound, catastrophic failure (namely with respect to Iraq) whereas on MSNBC and other Democrat-allied venues, Boot’s simply rolled out as a convenient Trump-criticizing conservative foil.

There are certain people whose complicity in epic failure, such as the invasion of Iraq, ought render their reputations permanently blotted. And yet, we find that so many of these people not only faced zero consequences, they’ve been permitted to continue promulgating the same ideas which undergirded their case for war. Boot now does this by framing his mission in terms of some kind of anti-Trump crusade, and MSNBC — always in search for “reasonable” conservative Trump critics — is happy to oblige him. It should be emphasized that Boot is one of the absolute most egregious examples of this; unlike others of his neocon ilk, he’s proudly unrepentant:



As anyone with a passing familiarity with their past ought to know, neoconservatives have always sought to ingratiate themselves into political coalitions that might not be self-evidently hospitable; they subtly accrue influence and leverage. That’s how they ended up playing such a starring role in the Hillary Clinton 2016 campaign. And now, by running around denouncing Trump, Boot is afforded the opportunity to implant his foreign policy notions in the minds of exercised MSNBC viewers, most of whom likely have no idea who he is or what destruction he and his compatriots have wreaked. (Rob Dekker is a prime example; N.)

The central, animating philosophy driving Boot shouldn’t be forgotten. He articulated it very lucidly and directly, in a Weekly Standard treatise entitled “The Case for American Empire,” published shortly after 9/11. Therein, Boot argued that “the most realistic response to terrorism is for America to embrace its imperial role.”

Quote
Occupying Iraq and Afghanistan will hardly end the “war on terrorism,” but it beats the alternatives. Killing bin Laden is important and necessary; but it is not enough. New bin Ladens could rise up to take his place. We must not only wipe out the vipers but also destroy their nest and do our best to prevent new nests from being built there again.

What Boot was calling for there is obvious: perpetual worldwide war, undertaken by the United States, to ‘pacify’ impassive foreigners; i.e., the most basic logic of classic imperialism. It’s the mindset which was embraced wholeheartedly after 9/11 by the political and media class, and which bedevils us still today.

Boot views Trump, rightly or wrongly, as an impediment to the exertion of American imperial power, and sees Trump as lessening America’s hegemonic prowess. In fact, Boot may be correct to deduce this; Trump makes the U.S. government look almost outlandishly comical in much of the world, and therefore hinders the salability of American misadventures abroad. If you are a neoconservative intellectual ideologically invested in the maintenance of American Empire, it would make perfect sense that you’d find this state of affairs intolerable.

But what’s galling is that American liberals have adopted essentially the same critique; that Trump is undermining American clout, by, for instance, declining to antagonize Putin and in fact partnering with him in select areas of mutual interest. This, both liberals and neoconservatives shriek, is supposed to constitute the “selling out of democracy” to Russia.


What’s also amazing is that Boot made a version of the exact same argument against Barack Obama, contending that he was weakening America’s international standing by not taking a forceful enough line against the dastardly Russians. In 2012, when Boot was serving as a national security advisor to the presidential campaign of Mitt Romney — a credential now touted by his fans on MSNBC as proof of his sterling impartiality — Boot ran to the New York Times to demand that Obama assume a “more muscular” policy in Syria: which of course meant full-scale military intervention in defiance of Putin. All throughout Obama’s presidency, Boot joined with other sinecured thinktankers in denouncing Obama’s tendency to “kowtow” to foreign leaders in a naive attempt to attain diplomatic accord. He now applies similar criticisms to Trump, and liberals cheer.

In a recent Weekly Standard post, Stephen Hayes lamented that Trump “caved” to Putin at their recent G-20 meeting. Read through the post and you’d be hard-pressed to find anything that couldn’t be earnestly written today in a liberal opinion journal. That’s not because of a “strange bedfellows” situation where Democrats just-so-happen to align with the flagship neoconservative publication on some narrow issue. It’s because Democrats have adopted the same principles as the neoconservatives: anguish about Trump seeking to “further Russia’s interests,” face-value acceptance of the idea that Russia is waging a sinister global campaign to undermine the so-called “liberal democratic order,” and unquestioning acceptance of evidence-free Intelligence Community assertions. These all have become central to the Democratic strategy of opposing Trump.

Again, give the neocons credit. At least they’re consistent.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 988
  • alias Mars Joh. P. Florifulgurator
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 57
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4344 on: August 09, 2018, 11:13:23 AM »
Most people cannot live with the status quo any longer,  they see themselves and their loved ones being fed to the insatiable maws of the oligarchy.
And so they happily fed themselves to the greatest liar and thief and representative of the worst of oligarchy (which is not a monolith)?

I can't help declare this utterly insanely ridiculous...  :o
(Even without the Putin thing  8) )

+1. I think sidd had a lapse of reasoning when he made that statement.
I didn't mean sidd. It is a standard narrative. And I think it has some truth. Some 'Merricans are utterly insanely ridiculous...
"The universe is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so better forget about being thrown into it." --Florifulgurator

Susan Anderson

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 38
  • Likes Given: 173
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4345 on: August 09, 2018, 09:44:13 PM »
Max Boot is not a liberal or an honest Democrat. He's disgusted with Republicans, as who wouldn't be. But don't hang him on us genuine liberals. We are not neocons, never were, never will be. He's eager to be a leader but that doesn't make his claims a true representation of Democrats.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:10:06 AM by Susan Anderson »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6218
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 269
  • Likes Given: 187
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4346 on: August 09, 2018, 09:54:44 PM »
Susan, I agree, but he's the neocon warmongering fascist CNN invites to tell Professor Stephen F Cohen he's a 'Russia apologist for 45 years'. So, I think it's quite reasonable to hang him on not so genuine liberals. And that's just another example of the excessive media attention Russiagate gets and the propagandized hysteria it creates (to serve non-apparent interests), which is why I posted that video last week.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4347 on: August 10, 2018, 09:10:07 AM »
Now that does not sound like a "fascist" to me.

Rob, I know you have a scientific/literal mind, but you cannot take words or texts at face value. Trump will say about himself that he is a genius. Does this automatically make him a genius?


Of course not.
But I have not seen any argument about the issues. Which issues that Max Boot raises are so reprehensive that you call him a "fascist" ? Surely you have a link to some of that ?

Quote
Max Boot is a neocon, like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Kristol, Perl, and all those other lowlifes who have caused so much misery all around the world in the past two decades. Neoconservatism and fascism overlap in important ways. People like Max Boot shouldn't be let near any camera or microphone (they can start their own YouTube channel if they want, just like Alex Jones), but corporate media will gladly bend over and give these snakes a slot. Because they are powerful and they promote establishment narratives that most efficiently increase and further concentrate wealth.

Quote
In fact, little of this, specifically the bolded parts, I could disagree with, which suggest that this guy is multiple steps up from Trump, who believes AGW is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.

Rob, at some point you are going to have to admit, if only to yourself, that you have neoconservative sympathies. You are simply pro-American Empire, because it is inherently a force for good, right?

Geez Neven. Please stop the rants.
It's at the bottom of the scale in the "triangle of truth" of posting guidelines :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg166597.html

Please focus on the issues.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

AbruptSLR

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 16656
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 237
  • Likes Given: 61
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4348 on: August 11, 2018, 09:24:27 PM »
Russia is clearly funding the Night Wolves in order to help destabilize Western Europe:

Title: "Putin’s “Surgeon” of the Night Wolves Issues “End of the World” Message to Slovakian President Kiska"

https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-prussian-night-wolves-slovakia-base/29420821.html
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Rob Dekker

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 88
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4349 on: August 12, 2018, 09:46:10 AM »
What do these FACT CHECKS have to do with the article by the ASD PR/Propaganda agents behind the Neocon Fascists who drive -- Voice of America (VOA)​ and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty?

If you have to resort to name calling, you already lost the argument.
One piece of advice : don't go there.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.