Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Russia, Russia, Russia  (Read 596067 times)

Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4742
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 507
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4350 on: August 12, 2018, 02:50:15 PM »
I was idly perusing the forum front page when this thread appeared at the top of my "unread" list.

That being the case perhaps I might direct people's attention over here:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg166940.html#msg166940

For a bit of context see:

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 248
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4351 on: August 13, 2018, 04:18:17 AM »
I've been making kind of a study on trolling and its effects for over a decade now, since it became evident that most climate denial is trolling of a rather effective sort. Trouble is, there's no way to prevent the climate denier or other kind of troll from reasserting the falsehood and claiming it's true, and the troll's colleagues and dupes will say: so there!

I'm particularly fed up with the effort to discredit Elizabeth Warren. I've known her and her work for quite a while, and to see supposed "progressives" claiming she's bought and paid for is nauseating. That's troll work.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2018/08/08/warren-hit-with-russia-twitter-trolls/7UEdKP06aRoe4U2diEioGK/story.html Unfortunately, the Boston Globe, which is one of the best, is often paywalled: Among Russia’s Twitter trolls, Senator Warren’s a favorite target

Meanwhile, my favorite resource, The New Yorker, has collected some of their best here: https://www.newyorker.com/books/double-take/sunday-reading-fake-news

Again, there is a limit to how much you can get for free, so here's one: Lessons from Europe’s Fight Against Russian Disinformation https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/lessons-from-europes-fight-against-russian-disinformation

This is not new. Below is a longish extract, but it is only part of an article well worth digesting:

Quote
Viewing the professional media as a strategic asset, the pipeline through which credible information travels, had never occurred to me in my thirty-five years as a reporter. But it is certainly the view of authoritarian governments and those transitioning to authoritarianism. The Chinese Communist Party maintains political power in part by controlling the information that citizens read, hear, and watch, and by imprisoning journalists whose work challenges the political status quo. The Russian President Vladimir Putin suffocated independent television and then built up a vast new state-run cultural, entertainment, and news apparatus to substitute as the main pipeline through which most Russians are informed about their neighbors and country.

In every nation on Earth where the government is moving from a participatory to an authoritarian form of rule, seizing the information pipeline is a prerequisite for staying in power. The general turned President Abdel Fattah El-Sisi did it in Egypt, by imprisoning dozens of journalists and censoring news about the military not provided by his own government. President Recep Erdoğan’s Turkish prisons now hold nearly one-third of all the journalists imprisoned in the world. “The people that claim to be journalists are not there because of their work as journalists but because of their links to terrorism,” an officer at the Turkish Embassy said recently.

The pattern is the same in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Ethiopia, among other nations. As a strategic asset, the media in these countries serve the national interests as defined by their rulers. Thus, the kings and princes of the Gulf states demanded that Qatar close its groundbreaking Al Jazeera network, and the monarchy in Bahrain recently shut down Al-Wasat, the only independent newspaper left in the kingdom. “The year 2017 could be remember by historians as the year of backsliding on freedom of expression, pluralism and human rights,” Al-Wasat’s crestfallen editor-in-chief, Mansoor Al-Jamri, told me in an e-mail, three weeks after he had to let a hundred and eighty-five staffers go. “Many governments were emboldened by this anti-democratic trend and took the opportunity to crackdown.”

In most of Europe, where hoax news stories and Web sites with bogus articles are muddying the digital pipeline of reliable information, political leaders have publicly reaffirmed their faith in the mainstream media and urged them to do a better job exposing imposters. With the help of journalists and researchers, the European Union’s East Stratcom Task Force has published thousands of examples of false or twisted stories in its weekly Disinformation Review.), available in eighteen languages.

Reporters and researchers in Britain, France, Germany, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine, Latvia, and Slovakia maintain lists of phony sites, and have helped readers follow the trail of conspiracies as they work their way through Twitter and Facebook.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4352 on: August 13, 2018, 11:24:07 PM »
Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland

C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.

Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.

ruffed

  • New ice
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4353 on: August 14, 2018, 09:09:04 AM »
Tch Tch boys. It's an unworthy subject for this forum anyway.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4354 on: August 14, 2018, 03:11:01 PM »
SYRIA White Helmets by Eva Bartlett via RT
Not Russian propaganda: Canadian, American, British journalists first exposed the White Helmets

Sadly, anything you put up "via RT" is deemed blasphemous here and most everywhere else.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4355 on: August 14, 2018, 04:30:59 PM »
Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland

C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.

Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.

Get stuffed Martin!  >:(

If you want to play childish ad hominem games I'm happy to beat you all over the shop for a month of Sundays. I suggest you withdraw your dumb comment!
Nope, it is my honest impression of your work here. Did I hit a nerve? (Back to ignoring your stuff.)

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4356 on: August 14, 2018, 06:15:40 PM »
It's not an honest impression, because it's quite simple to deduce for a mathematician that Lurk can't be a professional troll (too much work for such a small forum). A troll, perhaps, depending on your perspective. But not a professional one.

You're a troll too, but I know you're not a professional one.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4357 on: August 14, 2018, 07:07:03 PM »
It's not an honest impression, because it's quite simple to deduce for a mathematician that Lurk can't be a professional troll (too much work for such a small forum). A troll, perhaps, depending on your perspective. But not a professional one.
Yes, given the amount of text produced for a small forum, you could be right. But then, this is an internets apex with a sophisticated audience and a politically explosive subject.
If I had a troll factory,
1) I would target the ASIF, esp. you yourself.
2) I would use it as a test bed for propaganda. See what sticks with the well-educated, then produce the Facebook troll stuff.

Funny how Lurk accuses me of ad hominem and then calls me Martin Adolph McCarthy. It is Adolf :)

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4358 on: August 14, 2018, 07:27:14 PM »
RE: Trolls
It is statistically true that all trolls use pseudo names to conceal their identity. If your opening position is subterfuge and concealment you have to exaggerate and misdirect to substitute for trust you will never have.

Neven could force the issue by requiring everyone to supply their real names on their profile page. I predict 90% of the existing user base would OK with it.

Hi! I'm Jack Smith in Texas.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4359 on: August 14, 2018, 09:02:40 PM »
Hi! I'm Jack Smith in Texas.
Hahaha I guess there are 1000s of Jack Smiths in TX. One reason why I have no problem with pseudonyms. BTW, there are max. 3 Martin Gissers on the planet and I seem to be the only active one on the Internets. Luckily I'm not Ludwig Huber from Barvaria...

A famous example in the science blogopsphere is John Baez' Azimuth project and related blogs like the n-Category Cafe. John insists in using real names. However, the audience is smaller and networked and many are well-known researchers or their students, so it is easier to verify and trust the real names.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5665
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4360 on: August 14, 2018, 10:21:15 PM »
Re: real names on this forum

This has come up before, and my position remains unchanged. I will not participate in a forum that bans anonymous posting.

But the topic ought to be discussed somewhere on the group of threads entitled "The Forum."

sidd

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4361 on: August 14, 2018, 11:20:23 PM »
It's not an honest impression, because it's quite simple to deduce for a mathematician that Lurk can't be a professional troll (too much work for such a small forum). A troll, perhaps, depending on your perspective. But not a professional one.
Yes, given the amount of text produced for a small forum, you could be right. But then, this is an internets apex with a sophisticated audience and a politically explosive subject.
If I had a troll factory,
1) I would target the ASIF, esp. you yourself.
2) I would use it as a test bed for propaganda. See what sticks with the well-educated, then produce the Facebook troll stuff.

<snip>
3) Disrupt/dominate discourse with loads of lengthy text a la "Gish gallop".  (Also, this is how many creative writers work: The long stuff will later be condensed for the final publication. Cf. #2. Catching two flies at once.)

Any place where e.g Susan hangs out is a worthy target for obscurantists and trolls. (Oops, now I've given away some valuable strategic hint.) While she is immune, her presence indicates an intellectual hot spot that's worth being poisoned - and, defended! (Have met her on several such places over many years, sometimes fighting side by side against climate trolls. Good old simple times.)

-----------
Now let me stop harping and admit that Lurk could as well be a well-meaning but perhaps over zealously engaged serious mind. 50/50 - I said "I suspect...". His heated reaction would confirm both theories :) (and, no need for a conditional apology from me) ... Aah, and let me admit that I love to tease zealots and trolls and enjoy their violently self-defeating reaction. :)

Enough from me now.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 11:26:52 PM by Martin Gisser »

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 41
  • Likes Given: 248
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4362 on: August 15, 2018, 05:05:19 AM »
Just to be clear.

I am not accusing any particular person here* of being a troll, though once I did suspect one person here of acting as one. I am much more concerned about the influence of purchasing your ideas from the troll marketplace.

This is important. Think and evaluate for yourself. Don't just seek out things you want to believe.

I provided some very effective materials about trolling, but they were about the wide wide world and the dangers therein.

*Though, Neven, a dedicated effort that consistently undermines fact-based materials such as the one I posted earlier is indeed trolling. The amount of effort is not a good criterion. What is important is that a consistent argument with well-based backing should not be ignored. A clique that makes claims of bias while ignoring its own bias should not be able to derail a discussion.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4363 on: August 15, 2018, 08:50:05 AM »
<snipped in its entirety. The comment was neither good enough to be professional, funny enough to be entertaining, pithy enough to be interesting, nor worthy enough to keep. This isn't 4chan; don't treat it that way. Thanks! JP>

Thank you, Jim. Much appreciated.

Incidentally, do you have any opinion about the recently presented "Posting Guidelines" ?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg166920.html
which are intended to make this forum more civil and constructive ?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 08:55:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4364 on: August 15, 2018, 09:02:09 AM »
Neven could force the issue by requiring everyone to supply their real names on their profile page. I predict 90% of the existing user base would OK with it.

Hi! I'm Jack Smith in Texas.

Hi Jack, I'm Rob Dekker in California.
And I share your opinion.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4365 on: August 15, 2018, 09:11:50 AM »
Neven could force the issue by requiring everyone to supply their real names on their profile page. I predict 90% of the existing user base would OK with it.

Hi! I'm Jack Smith in Texas.

Hi Jack, I'm Rob Dekker in California.
And I share your opinion.

As a person that frequents many forums/websites/blogs and other online "stuff" why would I want people here to know EVERYTHING about me? This is way too "big brother'ish" for this type of forum. By a quick look at the member list looks like at least 90% are NOT using their real name and probably would not want to.

Yes, I know we are OT. Sorry.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 09:39:05 AM by mostly_lurking »

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4366 on: August 15, 2018, 09:28:33 AM »
Neven could force the issue by requiring everyone to supply their real names on their profile page. I predict 90% of the existing user base would OK with it.

Hi! I'm Jack Smith in Texas.

Hi Jack, I'm Rob Dekker in California.
And I share your opinion.

As a person that frequents many forums/websites/blogs and other online "stuff" why would I want people here to know EVERYTHING about me?

Just start with your name.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Zeug Gezeugt

  • New ice
  • Posts: 76
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4367 on: August 15, 2018, 10:58:43 AM »
Yes, I know we are OT. Sorry.

Indeed, but also kind of appropriate as the Russiagate story also seems to have drifted way off topic!

Is it still newsworthy in the US?

From the other side of the anglo planet we mostly just hear short bytes about Mueller does this or that and so on, every now and then. Plus a selection of only the most outrageous Trump Tweets.

But the new US sanctions against Turkey and the RF are news for sure, Medvedev has described it as 'economic warfare' as they apparently threaten an attack on the domestic Russian bonds market.

Personally, if I was holding fiat currency I'd go all in on silver and bitcoin at this point, trouble is the bitcoin whales have stripped their profits from that bubble and it's currently collapsing again. Looks like silver is it!

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4368 on: August 15, 2018, 10:59:30 AM »

Just start with your name.

In this day and age a name and a bit of searching can lead to many things. No.

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4369 on: August 15, 2018, 02:28:52 PM »
Back to topic.
There's a new book out: "House of Trump, House of Putin" by Craig Unger, author of "House of Bush, House of Saud".
Subtitle: "The Untold Story of Donald Trump and the Russian Mafia"

Trump has been laundering Russian Mafia money since decades.

Not that untold story, methinks. After superficial examination, looks like well-known stuff to me. Rachel Maddow told it, Louise Mensch dug out a lot (to be taken with a grain of salt), and here's another box of scraps:

https://medium.com/@JamesFourM/trump-putin-and-the-mob-part-6-trump-felix-sater-and-their-ties-to-mafia-don-semion-mogilevich-34d4a5a83d72
Quote
Yet, still, we wait for the media to catch up to, potentially, one of the biggest stories ever told: Donald Trump, our president, is a longtime money-launderer who remains beholden to the Russian mob’s “boss of bosses” Semion Mogilevich.

And there is a Dutch newspaper report from some time back.



AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 18906
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2026
  • Likes Given: 255
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4370 on: August 15, 2018, 08:42:20 PM »
Risky business:

Title: "Mystery Russian satellite's behaviour raises alarm in US"

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45194333

Extract: "A mysterious Russian satellite displaying "very abnormal behaviour" has raised alarm in the US, according to a State Department official.

"The narrative coming from the US is, 'space was really peaceful, now look at what the Russians and Chinese are doing' - ignoring the fact that the US has developed its own capabilities.""
“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4371 on: August 16, 2018, 07:28:32 AM »
This is regarding a discussion the DNC and DCCC hacks by Russian intelligence.
It was posted in the wrong thread, so I re-post it here :

Quote
Quote from: Neven on August 14, 2018, 01:01:20 PM
Wrong thread, guys! Please, take it elsewhere. I might post the 'Mueller-WMD in Iraq' video there.  ;)

Wrong thread, yes. But your comment about 'the Mueller-WMD in Iraq' video is a real head scratcher.

Mueller is on our side, Neven.
The side of truth and justice.
Not Trump's "fake news" side.

Mueller gave an excruciating detailed account of exactly how the DNC and the DCCC were hacked by Russian intelligence :
https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

If anyone has any evidence that contradicts this testimony, please speak up.

But please don't give us any more Jimmy Dore crap about the debunked William Binney / VIPS account that even Binney himself denounced at some point :

"After re-examining the data in Guccifer 2.0 files thoroughly with the author of this article, Binney changed his mind. He said there was “no evidence to prove where the download/copy was done”."

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252445769/Briton-ran-pro-Kremlin-disinformation-campaign-that-helped-Trump-deny-Russian-links


Mueller is arguably the most scrutinized person on this planet at this moment.
If there is even ONE word he says wrong, his investigation and his career end right away.

That given, with your remark, are you arguing that Mueller made up that entire indictment out of thin air ?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 07:42:01 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4372 on: August 16, 2018, 08:38:56 AM »

Your prize is in the post - because I know your name I also know where you live and your telephone number and how much you bought your home for and when. Did I mention even the various email addresses you have used the last decade or so? Oops too late.

Of course anyone who claims he has spent 30 years in the IT industry aspects of computer security, network interoperability, internet privacy, hacking, back doors, protection software, zero day exploits  and data collection services would already know this is as easy as pie to find out. :)

Hehe, back to "use your real name" argument :)    and right on point.

Hefaistos

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 708
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 369
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4373 on: August 16, 2018, 10:52:32 AM »
Mueller gave an excruciating detailed account of exactly how the DNC and the DCCC were hacked by Russian intelligence :
https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

If anyone has any evidence that contradicts this testimony, please speak up.

As Guccifer 2.0 is the centerpiece of Mueller's evidence that the Russian state/GRU is behind this, it's relevant to learn what IT security specialist Adam Carter says about the critique he got from Campbell regarding his in depth investigation into who G2 might be. As we have discussed above, it's unlikely that G2 is GRU, and Carter believes the whole thing is a construct. So, please read his latest detailed reply reg. Campbell:

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/08/deconstructing-campbells-smear-campaign-yields-a-blueprint-for-propaganda-part-two/

The first part is summarized below, and I believe that Carter clearly demonstrates that Campbell has an agenda mainly to smear and dox:

    Campbell has misrepresented people repeatedly.
    Campbell didn’t want to engage with me in terms of my work and was only ever interested in finding information that he could use to distort or smear.
    Campbell had his flawed interpretations and misconceptions corrected by myself multiple times via email correspondence, but ignored this and tries to pretend he’s debunked things he hasn’t.
    Campbell tried to incite paranoia among VIPS members and actually injected disinformation into investigations, doing exactly what he wrongly accuses others of doing and his contribution was debunked in a technically valid manner, something he, like many others who have tried, struggles to do with Forensicator’s work.
    Campbell tried to falsely portray the site operating on the “d3f.uk” domain as linking to “far right” sites when it didn’t.
    Campbell omitted whatever is inconvenient to the narrative he’s trying to build.
    Campbell made many false assumptions.
    Campbell lied about the g-2.space site’s author, claiming to be Ken, when that was an assumption Campbell had wrongly made.
    Campbell was told about the history of the g-2.space site’s author being a Bernie Sanders supporter but has proceeded to make false allegations that they’re a Trump supporter.
    The “g-2.space” site author’s identity was provided to the US Department of Justice (DOJ) (back when Campbell was trying to assemble this smear campaign) as part of a collaborative effort to collate information/evidence that had been sent to Special Counsel Robert Mueller and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. Campbell has avoided making any mention of these facts and might not even have been aware of this.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1765
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 361
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4374 on: August 16, 2018, 03:49:21 PM »

The job of the defense lawyers, who will only be given full access to the "evidence" The FBI has to hand during discovery. The Indictment isn't "evidence" it's a claim as to what the evidence hopefully prove in Court. This is Law:101. Demands for contrary evidence from participants on a minor forum is well, weak. Of course Rob will again ignore such common sense realities. Sad.
 

No, "evidence" for purposes of a criminal trial is different from "evidence" for purposes of a discussion forum.  An indictment is, indeed, the latter kind of evidence.  A prosecutor's indictment is filed under oath, effectively.  If a prosecutor files an indictment filled with made-up crap, he can lose his career and face criminal contempt of court.  He's an officer of the court and has a duty to make statements in honesty and good faith.

"Rob will again ignore" is an ad hominem attack.  Please stop.

Quote

Your prize is in the post - because I know your name I also know where you live and your telephone number and how much you bought your home for and when. Did I mention even the various email addresses you have used the last decade or so? Oops too late.

Of course anyone who claims he has spent 30 years in the IT industry aspects of computer security, network interoperability, internet privacy, hacking, back doors, protection software, zero day exploits  and data collection services would already know this is as easy as pie to find out. :)

This is a threat.  You should be banned.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4375 on: August 16, 2018, 03:59:06 PM »

This is a threat.  You should be banned.
Not really- I see no threat. Searching for public information is not illegal.

This is a point well made to a person that is behind everyone putting their real name as a requisite for being a part of this forum.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1765
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 361
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4376 on: August 16, 2018, 04:01:19 PM »

This is a threat.  You should be banned.
Not really- I see no threat. Searching for public information is not illegal.

This is a point well made to a person that is behind everyone putting their real name as a requisite for being a part of this forum.

Cyberstalkinig is a crime.  That's what you just described above.  Yes, it's a threat to a member.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4377 on: August 16, 2018, 04:03:34 PM »

This is a threat.  You should be banned.
Not really- I see no threat. Searching for public information is not illegal.

This is a point well made to a person that is behind everyone putting their real name as a requisite for being a part of this forum.

Cyberstalkinig is a crime.  That's what you just described above.  Yes, it's a threat to a member.
It wasn't me (just similar name). He pointed out that public info was easy to get. The "hacking and cracking" part was hypothetical.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1765
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 361
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4378 on: August 16, 2018, 04:06:17 PM »

This is a threat.  You should be banned.
Not really- I see no threat. Searching for public information is not illegal.

This is a point well made to a person that is behind everyone putting their real name as a requisite for being a part of this forum.

Cyberstalkinig is a crime.  That's what you Lurk just described above.  Yes, it's a threat to a member.
It wasn't me (just similar name). He pointed out that public info was easy to get. The "hacking and cracking" part was hypothetical.

Correct.  My apologies.  "You" above should have been "Lurk".  Corrected here.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4379 on: August 16, 2018, 10:16:41 PM »
You're being most histrionic about this. Pointing out the real world consequences of people's choices and demands about what other people's choices should be here too, in a telling humorous manner is not a threat. It may also suggests a dark paranoia lurking just below the surface that needs some light shone upon it. It's never helpful to see things that are not really there. Glad to help out.  :)

Maybe make it clearer that it wasn't meant as a threat. People are on edge.

PS I'll be gone for a day or two to get to where I want to go (holiday address).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4380 on: August 17, 2018, 03:39:48 AM »

Lurk

I seriously doubt you're in any danger of banishment. Your posts are both interesting and well thought out.
I personally try to refrain from responding in kind to personal affronts. Life's too short, and we're all subject to the propaganda bubbles we're in.


These are contentious times, and I think everyone here is sincere in their belief's.
Terry

 

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5665
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4381 on: August 17, 2018, 06:58:53 AM »
Clutching your pearls and having a fainting fit because someone points out that real names might lead to further compromise of privacy ignores the elephant in the room.

The NSA already knows your hat size and how long your dick is. (Apologies to the ladies in this discussion.)

Your government can hurt you much more severely than hackers on the net. Careful what you post, citizen.

Remember that line ?

"Hey, NSA, can you see how many fingers i am holding up ? Very good, now can you tell which one it is ? "

Thank heaven for Snowden and Assange. Long before, some of us were aware of SEQUOIA and ECHELON. But now everyone knows.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4382 on: August 17, 2018, 07:27:21 AM »
Quote
That given, with your remark, are you arguing that Mueller made up that entire indictment out of thin air ?

That wins my Stupid Question of the Week Award.

Your prize is in the post - because I know your name I also know where you live and your telephone number and how much you bought your home for and when. Did I mention even the various email addresses you have used the last decade or so? Oops too late.

If you don't want to answer my yes/no question in public, just give me a call or send me email.
Or ring my doorbell and we can talk about it. I'll keep a beer in the fridge for you.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:55:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5665
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4383 on: August 17, 2018, 08:28:04 AM »
Over at viableopposition, an argument that the USA has learnt little in fifty years:

"Unfortunately, as we've learned in the past, propaganda is a two-way street and the battle for our minds and the minds of our so-called foes can easily be won by our respective leaders, largely because we all tend to forget that "the other guy" is a human being just like we are. "

https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-united-states-and-russia-propaganda.html

sidd


Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4384 on: August 18, 2018, 09:37:24 AM »
After blowing it up, and causing the largest refugee crisis on the planet since WWII,
Russia asks world powers to pay for Syria reconstruction :

https://www.ft.com/content/47933554-f847-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3b65

But European and Gulf states, angered by Russia’s military intervention that tilted the war in favour of President Bashar al-Assad, will only contribute if Moscow secures a peace settlement that sets the terms for an eventual political transition, western diplomats say.

“They [Russia] go in, they mess it all up, they break everything and want everyone to pay for it,” said a European diplomat.

This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1765
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 361
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4385 on: August 18, 2018, 09:58:39 AM »
After blowing it up, and causing the largest refugee crisis on the planet since WWII,
Russia asks world powers to pay for Syria reconstruction :

https://www.ft.com/content/47933554-f847-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3b65

But European and Gulf states, angered by Russia’s military intervention that tilted the war in favour of President Bashar al-Assad, will only contribute if Moscow secures a peace settlement that sets the terms for an eventual political transition, western diplomats say.

“They [Russia] go in, they mess it all up, they break everything and want everyone to pay for it,” said a European diplomat.

In general, I'd concur that the Kremlin is guilty of many grave sins.  I have trouble seeing that the current state of Syria is really among them.  They were a late comer to the conflict, mopped up much of the collapsing IS forces, and apparently laid waste to some specific locations.  "Laid waste" would probably also apply to the actions of the US in other locations, Assad in others, and IS in others.

Still, they're the last major external force standing, and if the Kremlin really wants to wield permanent sway over what happens there, maybe they should take prime responsibility for rebuilding.  Regardless, it always seems to be the Syrian people who bear the bulk of the suffering.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5665
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4386 on: August 18, 2018, 10:54:07 AM »
Re: "They [Russia] go in, they mess it all up ..."

Gee, we were having such a nice war, the headchoppers were gonna get Assad just like Gaddaffi, we'd have nice slave markets and all. But the Russians came in an messed it all up. Hate 'em Russians.

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4387 on: August 19, 2018, 08:49:37 AM »
After blowing it up, and causing the largest refugee crisis on the planet since WWII,
Russia asks world powers to pay for Syria reconstruction :

https://www.ft.com/content/47933554-f847-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3b65

But European and Gulf states, angered by Russia’s military intervention that tilted the war in favour of President Bashar al-Assad, will only contribute if Moscow secures a peace settlement that sets the terms for an eventual political transition, western diplomats say.

“They [Russia] go in, they mess it all up, they break everything and want everyone to pay for it,” said a European diplomat.

In general, I'd concur that the Kremlin is guilty of many grave sins.  I have trouble seeing that the current state of Syria is really among them.  They were a late comer to the conflict, mopped up much of the collapsing IS forces, and apparently laid waste to some specific locations.  "Laid waste" would probably also apply to the actions of the US in other locations, Assad in others, and IS in others.

Still, they're the last major external force standing, and if the Kremlin really wants to wield permanent sway over what happens there, maybe they should take prime responsibility for rebuilding.  Regardless, it always seems to be the Syrian people who bear the bulk of the suffering.

Thank you Steve. That is a well-argued post.

Some context : the refugee crisis increased from 4 million to more than 6 million during the time that Russia intervened in Syria.
So they did not make things better.

Russia's ambitions in Syria also appear to be limited to militarily aiding Assad, and they don't take responsibility for much else. From the article :

Quote
Mikhail Bogdanov, Russia’s deputy foreign minister in charge of Middle East issues, told a meeting of EU ambassadors in Moscow last week that the reconstruction of Syria would top the agenda very soon, according to European diplomats. He said “tens of billions of dollars” would be needed, while warning that “nothing” should be expected from Russia, the diplomats said.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4388 on: August 19, 2018, 06:13:08 PM »
Beware Russian Bears Bearing Gifts! :)
If you can put a listening device in a soccer ball, pretty sure you can hide one in a samovar :)

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4389 on: August 20, 2018, 05:48:47 AM »
Kneissl, 53, tied the knot with businessman Wolfgang Meilinger, 54, on Saturday in a vineyard in the picturesque town of Gamlitz.

When the guests were seated, the Russian president had the opportunity to show off his German skills. Putin delivered a lengthy toast, honoring the newlyweds and wishing happiness, harmony, and love to the couple. He also threw in a few jokes, eliciting laughs and applause from the newlyweds and their guests. He noted that Kneissl enjoys Russian culture, so he brought a bit of it with him.

Some context :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/17/anger-austria-foreign-minister-invites-putin-to-wedding

Quote
Kneissl, an independent, owes her appointment as foreign minister to the populist, anti-immigrant Freedom party (FPÖ), the junior party in Austria’s ruling coalition.

The Eurosceptic and openly pro-Russia party has signed a “cooperation agreement” with Putin’s United Russia party, and Kneissl’s close ties to the Russian leader are raising questions in the EU over where Austria’s loyalties lie. The FPÖ has supported Russia’s claim to Crimea and called for the easing of sanctions on Moscow.

I guess there were not enough Austrians on MH17.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 06:56:50 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4390 on: August 20, 2018, 06:15:20 AM »
Some context : the refugee crisis increased from 4 million to more than 6 million during the time that Russia intervened in Syria.

Some substantiating data would be nice. and dates.

Sure. The latest number of Syrian refugees is about 6.3 million :
https://www.mercycorps.org/articles/worlds-5-biggest-refugee-crises

In the summer of 2015, just before Russia's official intervention, that number was 4 million :
http://www.unhcr.org/ph/13427-seven-years-timeline-syria-crisis.html

That is 2.3 million more refugees that added while Russia was bombing Syria.

This added to the already significant refugee problem in Europe, giving rise to right-wing, anti-immigrant parties like the FPÖ in Austria.

Quote
Quote
So they did not make things better.

Define "better" - pre-Russia intervention to today?

"Better" would be if more Syrians will return than Syrians that leave the country.
At this post, versus pre-Russia intervention, another 2.3 million left the country.
So the Russians did not make things "better".
They made it worse. A lot worse.

Quote
Quote
Russia's ambitions in Syria also appear to be limited to militarily aiding Assad, and they don't take responsibility for much else. From the article :

well of course. by disregarding all that Russia has done and will continue to do and never going to a source that reports or announces such things it's easy to say nothing is being done.

I'm sure if Russia does something good in Syria, you would be the first one to give a reference.
Instead, you appear to prefer posting Putin's performance at a FPÖ wedding in Austria.

Quote

Quote
Mikhail Bogdanov, Russia’s deputy foreign minister in charge of Middle East issues, told a meeting of EU ambassadors in Moscow last week that the reconstruction of Syria would top the agenda very soon, according to European diplomats. He said “tens of billions of dollars” would be needed, while warning that “nothing” should be expected from Russia, the diplomats said.


That's FTs interpretation according to what they report European diplomats say, so I supposed that word "nothing" was the only one he uttered in that meeting - an assumed absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. If you REALLY wanted to know what Russia and others were doing as far as health, safety and reconstruction you be out there looking for it and not relying on the FT as the only one to do it for you - as if they have some special direct line into the Kremlin and the Duma.

Again, if you have anything positive to report about Russia doing "health, safety and reconstruction" in Syria, please report it.

Meanwhile, it is pretty obvious that Russia is really good at destroying things (like Mosques and Hospitals and other civilian targets) in Syria,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Syrian_hospital_bombing_campaign
https://www.msf.org/syria-hospitals-hit-repeatedly-russian-and-syrian-airstrikes-condemning-hundreds-wounded-certain
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/24/un-fire-giving-russia-coordinates-syrian-hospitals-high-risk/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/02/11/russian-air-strikes-targeting-mosques-syria/80248060/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/06/syria-russian-warplanes-bomb-rebel-held-idlib-dozens-dead-180608085726432.html

and taking Syria's oil and gas :

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russia-Is-Taking-Over-Syrias-Oil-And-Gas.html

and lying about who they are bombing :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2015/10/26/what-russias-own-videos-and-maps-reveal-about-who-they-are-bombing-in-syria/

but they don't seem to care about the Syrian people or rebuilding their country.

And we are not even talking about Idlib where with a population of approximately 2.9 million, approximately half of which are internally displaced people (IDPs) who have already fled from elsewhere in Syria.

If Assad and Russia will not engage in peace talks there, Idlib is going to be another catastrophic event in the mess that is Syria.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 10:36:21 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4391 on: August 20, 2018, 11:03:17 AM »
Chomsky basically says Russiagate is.... b.s.
How long will it take for it to sink in. Maybe in 2024.





TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4392 on: August 20, 2018, 11:26:49 AM »
Yeh, but there's this kid living in his mother's basement and he has proved that Putin did everything but start WWI.
Why shouldn't I believe Elliot? He even draws on pictures to make it easier to understand. Noam just thinks he's smart - or somethin.
/sarc
Terry

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4393 on: August 20, 2018, 12:55:26 PM »
1) Why are those "progressives" so obsessed about Russiagate?  ???
2) Someone should explain Chomsky the difference between Israeli meddling and Russian hacking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

I stopped listening to the marginalia of this cunning linguist some time ago. (Wow, first time I found Dore funny - but right after I found him stupid (never heard of marginalia?))

NevB

  • New ice
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 267
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4394 on: August 20, 2018, 01:26:33 PM »
This Papadopoulos sentencing memo is well worth reading especially the FBI's comments about his lying after being warned.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4776067-Papadopoulos-Sentencing-Memo.html

Papadopoulos is probably going to jail for repeatedly lying about his meetings with Russian's.

The third to be jailed, the first to be convicted and the first to be convicted for "colluding" with Russian's but probably not the last. 

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4395 on: August 20, 2018, 02:24:39 PM »

but they don't seem to care about the Syrian people or rebuilding their country.


No outrage and not even a word about Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia with the loss of all 66 passengers and 12 crew on board.

Whataboutery at it's best because it's almost a mirror-event in time. A horrible accident with varying degrees of unknown incompetence. Ukraine Govt & Ukrainian Military still deny all blame and responsibility. When we are rash and not careful and cautious bad things happen. Even when we are doing our best bad things still happen. That's what I have learned from life.

Quoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
"The accident took place at the time of the combat missile launches during the joint Ukrainian-Russian military air defense exercises.[2] The exercises were held at the Russian-controlled training ground of the 31st Russian Black Sea Fleet Research center on Opuk cape near the city of Kerch (Crimea). Ukraine eventually admitted that it caused the crash, probably by an errant S-200 missile fired by its armed forces.[3] Ukraine ended up paying $15 million to surviving family members of 78 victims ($200,000 per victim).[4][5]"
(my emph.)

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4396 on: August 20, 2018, 03:57:50 PM »
Very worthwhile book:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/15/the-road-to-unfreedom-russia-europe-america-timothy-snyder-review-tim-adams

Quote
The Road to Unfreedom by Timothy Snyder review – chilling and unignorable
This persuasive book looks at Putin’s favourite Russian political philosopher and the template he set for fake news


(...)

Timothy Snyder begins his pattern-making deconstruction of recent Russian history – which by design, he argues, is indistinguishable from recent British and American history – with a comprehensive account of Putin’s reverence for the work of [Ivan] Ilyin. Like much of Snyder’s analysis in this unignorable book, the framing offers both a disturbing and persuasive insight.

Ilyin, an early critic of Bolshevism, had been expelled by the Soviets in 1922. In Germany, where he wrote favourably of the rise of Hitler and the example of Mussolini, he developed ideas for a Russian fascism, which could counter the effects of the 1917 revolution. As a thread through his nationalist rhetoric, he proposed a lost “Russian spirit”, which in its essence reflected a Christian God’s original creation before the fall and drew on a strongly masculine “pure” sexual energy (he had been psychoanalysed by Freud).

(...)
With Surkov’s management, “Putin was to offer masculinity as an argument against democracy”, Snyder suggests; he was to associate, specifically, for example, gay rights and equal marriage with an attack on the Russian spirit.

In this culture war, disinformation was critical. (...) MH17 (...)

The more outrageous the official lie was, the more it allowed people to demonstrate their faith in the Kremlin. (...)

The second half of Snyder’s book explores how Russia has sought to export this policy to those who threaten it, primarily through a mass disinformation war, a 2.0 update of Sun Tzu’s “confusion to our enemy” principle, with the aim of dividing and polarising pluralist democracies – in particular the EU and the US – against themselves.

Snyder is very astute at joining the dots in how Russian propagandists, human or digital, sought to spread fake news to undermine faith in the democratic process, at the same time giving overt support to European separatists and Russia TV regulars such as Marine Le Pen and Nigel Farage. He details how, for example, Russian “news” sources spread the idea that the Scottish independence vote had been “rigged” by “establishment forces” with the aim of undermining faith in democratic institutions in Britain before the EU referendum. (...) Trump (...)

One unavoidable conclusion of this depressing tale lies in the acknowledgment that Putin’s strategy has been so successful in shaking faith in the sanctity of fact and expert knowledge. A measure of that assault comes when you examine your reaction to this meticulously researched and footnoted book as you read it. (...)


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sacrificium_intellectus&redirect=no


TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4397 on: August 21, 2018, 05:41:54 AM »
Interestingly or not, these actions took place under Obama's watch.


Why would the US want to discourage others from spending their own resources in projects that would aid in reducing Europe's refugee problems. The lack of humanitarian concerns won't win many hearts or minds anywhere outside of Ukraine.


Terry

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5665
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4398 on: August 21, 2018, 07:01:36 AM »
"Why would the US want to discourage others from spending their own resources in projects that would aid in reducing Europe's refugee problems. "

I reply in another thread:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg168633.html#msg168633

sidd

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4399 on: August 21, 2018, 09:32:40 AM »
‘Secret directive’ bans UN agencies from helping rebuild Syria until ‘political transition’ – Lavrov
Published time: 20 Aug, 2018

He said that the UN Secretariat, which is the organizations’ executive arms, has “actually issued and distributed a secret directive throughout the UN system in October last year that prohibited the agencies included in this system from participating in any kind of projects aimed at restoring the Syrian economy.”

You would think that after Lavrov's lies about that Spiez Lab report, that reasonably thinking people would take any new claims by Lavrov of a "secret directive" with at least a huge grain of salt.

But no. Not for some of the posters here apparently. They just parrot whatever Russian propaganda channels have to offer.

But it gets better, because Terry posted :

Quote
Interestingly or not, these actions took place under Obama's watch.

I may be mistaken, but wasn't Obama still kite-surfing in October 2017 ?



And then sidd comes in with a perfectly reasoned explanation of why the US would do such a thing as what Terry (without providing a shred of evidence) accuses Obama of.

That was a very funny string of posts, Lurk, Terry and sidd !
Thank you for giving me a good laugh !
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:02:35 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.