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TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4550 on: September 19, 2018, 09:41:55 AM »
The first 12 min was particularly enlightening. The Ukrainian response should be entertaining, especially for those who prefer fairy tales to documentaries. :)

Is this some kind of game show to you, Terry ?

You like to sit there with your popcorn in front of you, pissing at Bellingcat and Ukrainians, while adding ZERO information to this forum ?

298 people were killed when this plane got shot out of the sky by a BUK from the Russian 53rd brigade. The Russians have been proven to lie for 4 years, and all you can think of is how "entertaining" it would be to see the Ukrainian response to their latest propaganda ?

Can you at least switch on your critical thinking for a brief moment, and tell us exactly which evidence presented (in the first 12 min) was most compelling for you to determine that the Ukrainians did it ?

Or did you just all gobble it up like cheese-cake ?
Rob
We've been through this before. I took ~2 years away from this forum to study the Ukrainian situation. During that period I read tons of Eliot's BS, as well as even more posts that pointed out his errors.
He was an ignorant twit when he called himself Dark Moses, he hasn't changed anything but his moniker. When he was laughed off the internet as Dark Moses he came back with a different name/persona. Doesn't that tell you anything?


In the first 12 min they presented the factory records for the missile that was purchased by the Ukrainian Military, that then shot down an airplane in an incident that helped the Ukrainian cause.
When they trace the gun back to the suspect who had the most to gain from the murder, the jury won't be out for long.


Good-by Rob
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4551 on: September 19, 2018, 09:58:37 AM »
The first 12 min was particularly enlightening. The Ukrainian response should be entertaining, especially for those who prefer fairy tales to documentaries. :)

Is this some kind of game show to you, Terry ?

You like to sit there with your popcorn in front of you, pissing at Bellingcat and Ukrainians, while adding ZERO information to this forum ?

298 people were killed when this plane got shot out of the sky by a BUK from the Russian 53rd brigade. The Russians have been proven to lie for 4 years, and all you can think of is how "entertaining" it would be to see the Ukrainian response to their latest propaganda ?

Can you at least switch on your critical thinking for a brief moment, and tell us exactly which evidence presented (in the first 12 min) was most compelling for you to determine that the Ukrainians did it ?

Or did you just all gobble it up like cheese-cake ?
Rob
We've been through this before. I took ~2 years away from this forum to study the Ukrainian situation. During that period I read tons of Eliot's BS, as well as even more posts that pointed out his errors.

Would you kindly share a some his "errors" with us ?

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He was an ignorant twit when he called himself Dark Moses, he hasn't changed anything but his moniker. When he was laughed off the internet as Dark Moses he came back with a different name/persona. Doesn't that tell you anything?

He called himself Brown Moses. And he was never "laughed off the internet". You just made that all up by yourself.

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In the first 12 min they presented the factory records for the missile that was purchased by the Ukrainian Military,...

Since you purposely or out of ignorance do not present the evidence, I will :

Even if we accept the factory records (and there is no reason we should), the only thing that implicates Ukraine is this :



That's it. The page of a book. That's the best the Russians have to offer to implicate Ukraine in the downing of MH17.

Four years of evidence collecting by the JIT and the Dutch Safety Board, and yes, instrumental reports from countless video and picture evidence analyzed by open source journalists like Bellingcat, and the only thing the Russians present in return is a page of a book which is supposedly "top secret" and cannot leave Russia.

Does that sound like credible evidence to you ? It's a yes or no question.

Please answer the question before I proceed.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:54:04 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4552 on: September 19, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
A note of caution : The picture I presented above is by rferl.org, which may be associated with Western sources. /sarc
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:00:40 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4553 on: September 19, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
He actually reminds of an Anthony Watts in many ways. They could be twin brothers, just chose different fields. If Higgins got involved in climate science he would be a denier using social media comments and photos to prove it. LOL He's a shrill shill. A nobody who knows nothing of use to anyone else. Anyone with brains that is.

Lurk, where were you when I debunked Lindzen and Choi 2009 ?
Where were you when I challenged WUWT users to bet with me on Arctic sea ice extent in 2011 ?

Show me ONE post of yours on WUWT or ANY other climate science denier web site. Just ONE.
You know, just so we know that you are actually confronting climate science deniers instead of actually being one turned TrumPutin supporter.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:01:36 PM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4554 on: September 19, 2018, 12:12:22 PM »
Open source journalism is absolutely science. It's forensic science.
And a very good form of forensic science, since the evidence is openly available for everyone to check if some statement is true or not.

In theory, perhaps. In practice, no. What are Higgins' sources? How does he get his info?

Imagine Anthony Watts doing a tree ring study showing global temps haven't changed substantially for 5 thousand years, and you want to replicate his work, and he doesn't share the raw data.

Would that be open source? Would you trust him on his word? Yes, you probably would, if you didn't want AGW to be true.

But it's not science, and so it doesn't work that way. Evidence is open to interpretation and can be manipulated, either directly or by the way it is presented (leaving out other evidence or deductions, for instance). What Higgins does, is more akin to the work of lawyers. I don't trust lawyers when they openly flirt with right-wing pro-war thinktanks that like to use suspects to further their interests.

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It's also much better than traditional journalism, where a journalist decides what you get to see and what it means.

It's similar to journalism. In this case similar to a journalist with clear ties to ideologically driven thinktanks. A bit like David Rose and the GWPF.

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The key difference is that in open-source journalism everyone can show you that you are wrong or not. And they will if you are.

Not if it isn't actually open source, and you don't have direct access to the source and the raw data.

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That's why I have repeatedly stated that open source journalism is the ONLY unbiased form of journalism, and the ONLY way to establish what is truth and what not REGARDLESS of the authors and their political preferences or associations with whatever organization, and regardless of their intentions. The work is either true or false, and we can all verify that since the evidence is openly available.

In theory, yes. In practice, it's open to abuse.

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So your concerns about Eliot Higgins is unfounded, and in fact a very clear example of "if you don't like the message, attack the messenger". I expected more from you Neven.

I'm not attacking the messenger. I'm saying I don't trust him.

It's actually the other way around. You are loving the messenger because you love the message.

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If you don't like Bellingcat's work, then find any errors in their work we can discuss it here.
But I warn you : They are VERY good, and have never been proven wrong.

I think you are confusing Higgins with Julian Assange, who has been in a prison for almost a decade now, cut off from the world. Higgins is out there, giving presentations to neocon thinktanks, stuffing his pockets who knows how.

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There is a binary choice you have to make : A claim is either true or it's not.

Yes, but oftentimes it's impossible to find out whether it's true or not. To make a choice nevertheless and then firmly believe in it, is a sure way to self-delusion.

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So far, ALL of the conspiracy theories out of Russia over the past 4 year have been prove to be false.

And none of the claims by Bellingcat, the JIT, or the Dutch Safety Board have been proven false, despite relentless attacks.

It's easy to make absolute statements. If I would have 10 hours, I could probably add a lot of nuance.

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Yes, Neven. There is a binary choice : You either choose the truth as presented by evidence, or you give in to propaganda and your own biased beliefs.

I know you truly believe this because you're a beta guy, but it simply doesn't work that way with politics, PR, sociology, economics, etc. What you consider the 'truth', may very well be propaganda, and you always have to remain open to that. Especially if your main sources are unreliable. That's like building a case on RT.
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4555 on: September 19, 2018, 12:29:00 PM »
My problem with Bellingcat* operating under a veneer of 'open source' (implying independence and objectivity, when sources aren't actually fully open at all), is that there's a massive amount of interpretation, insinuation and omission. Just a case in point, is Higgins' recent blog post on Boshirov and Petrov's passports (the two Russians who have been designated prime suspects for the Skripal poisoning; we are awaiting all the follow-ups after last week's media storm).

The Bellingcat blog post is full of innuendo based on interpretations, and no explanation whatsoever where the materials come from, how they were obtained, and if they are genuine. This Twitter timeline puts up a list of objections/explanations/alternative possibilities.




* And I should say Higgins (and others like him, like Toler), because Bellingcat is a collective, of course, and I'm sure there are many well-meaning people there that Higgins uses as a cover. And that's the only real open-source aspect of the whole initiative, the fact that it's a group of people working pro bono for the benefit of society/humanity. Higging works pro something for the benefit of the military industry. Or at least, that's how it looks to me.


PS I agree with Lurk that Higgins' social media behaviour doesn't look very mature. It's combative, sarcastic, filled with gifs and memes. It's not the kind of image you associate with a detached, cold-blooded, level-headed expert of such serious matters concerning geopolitics and potentially war. When a climate risk denier behaves like that, I know he isn't genuine or objective. When an AGW proponent/alarmist behaves like that, I usually steer clear and try to find a more reliable source of information. With science that's possible.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:52:03 PM by Neven »
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Forest Dweller

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4556 on: September 19, 2018, 01:08:37 PM »
More strange happenings:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/german-doctors-pussy-riot-member-poisoned/story?id=57901880

After the Polonium, Novistjok and unknown poisons one could be forgiven for saying Russian dissidents/activists are pretty much a lab experiment.
After all, aren't there far more effective substances such as cyanide or whatever if you just want to get rid of somebody?

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4557 on: September 19, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »
More strange happenings:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/german-doctors-pussy-riot-member-poisoned/story?id=57901880

After the Polonium, Novistjok and unknown poisons one could be forgiven for saying Russian dissidents/activists are pretty much a lab experiment.
After all, aren't there far more effective substances such as cyanide or whatever if you just want to get rid of somebody?

Use of an exotic poison against an enemy of the state serves a dual purpose.  Eliminate or intimidate the victim, and send a message to all those who might oppose state interests.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4558 on: September 20, 2018, 03:31:32 AM »
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U.S. F-22's & F-35's will continue U.S. domination of  Russian AIRFARCE efforts.
...the average wood duck....
Yes, Lurch..... F-22''s & F-35's have radar signatures LESS than a wood duck & russian SU-57's & communist chinese J-20's have radar signatures much greater than wood ducks.   

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4559 on: September 20, 2018, 07:09:00 AM »
.....unbiased and trustworthy Russian news media site......
Mutually exclusive terms, with putin paws whippin' the reins.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:24:35 AM by litesong »

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4560 on: September 20, 2018, 07:14:00 AM »
....what have we learned from Paul Manafort regarding Russian collusion?
Good u got no news ta tell us. But Robert Mueller has lined up all his ducks in a row & we know that SU-57's & communist chinese J-20's got radar signatures much larger than ducks.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4561 on: September 20, 2018, 07:30:41 AM »
.....Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly phoned Russian President Vladimir Putin to express his condolences and offered to send his air force chief to Russia with a detailed report.
Major-General Amikam Norkin will arrive in Moscow on Thursday.....
Ah...... Netty is sendin' someone who can keep a straight face, while describin' how a despotic, genocidal russian ally shoots down despotic murderer & liar putin's russian Airfarce plane. Ah know ah couldn't never keep but bust out laughin'. 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4562 on: September 20, 2018, 08:07:10 AM »
Open source journalism is absolutely science. It's forensic science.
And a very good form of forensic science, since the evidence is openly available for everyone to check if some statement is true or not.

In theory, perhaps. In practice, no. What are Higgins' sources? How does he get his info?

All of internet. Mostly social media where people post pictures and videos of what happened close to them. Also WorlView satellite images (via Google Earth).
I'm surprised that you ask that question.

Also, the 'forensic science' part of open source journalism is not in the actual evidence. After all, that is accessible for all to see. It's in analyzing the evidence. Things like geo-locating images and timing them. The really cool part is that since the evidence is accessible to everyone, you can actually crowd-source that, and Bellingcat does that a lot.
If you make a mistake, somebody will point it out to you, so it is a self-correcting process.

You gotta admit that is cool.

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Imagine Anthony Watts doing a tree ring study showing global temps haven't changed substantially for 5 thousand years, and you want to replicate his work, and he doesn't share the raw data.

Would that be open source? Would you trust him on his word? Yes, you probably would, if you didn't want AGW to be true.

No, that's not "open source".
In fact, that is a very good example of propaganda.
For example, when they Russia claimed last week (without any evidence) that the US used incendiary ammunition in Hajin. You know, the attack that never happened.
Or when the Russian MoD claimed a false flag chemical attack was filmed in Idlib in the presence of multiple news organizations, including a US news org, with the intention of the footage being published that same day. One of many fake false flag claims they've made.
None of that materialized an none of the 'filming' was ever shown.
It was fabricated Russian propaganda.

Open source journalism is when the evidence is publicly available, for anyone to check.
Bellingcat does that for all of their claims.

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That's why I have repeatedly stated that open source journalism is the ONLY unbiased form of journalism, and the ONLY way to establish what is truth and what not REGARDLESS of the authors and their political preferences or associations with whatever organization, and regardless of their intentions. The work is either true or false, and we can all verify that since the evidence is openly available.

In theory, yes. In practice, it's open to abuse.

Can you show an example where it is open of 'abuse' ?

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So your concerns about Eliot Higgins is unfounded, and in fact a very clear example of "if you don't like the message, attack the messenger". I expected more from you Neven.

I'm not attacking the messenger. I'm saying I don't trust him.

What if I say I don't trust James Hansen. Would that change anything about his work ?

You still don't seem understand how open source journalism works.
Trust is irrelevant in science and in open source journalism.

For example, geo-location of a picture.
You either get it right, or you get it wrong.
If you get it wrong, there sure would be somebody pointing it out.

Don't you see that that is a binary choice, and a self-correcting process ?
Just like any science there is no need for "trust" in open source journalism.

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Yes, but oftentimes it's impossible to find out whether it's true or not. To make a choice nevertheless and then firmly believe in it, is a sure way to self-delusion.

That's right if it's impossible to find out if it's true or not, you should not make a choice.
But if it is, you MUST make the choice.
You MUST discard any theory that was proven wrong by evidence.
Discard enough theories, and only one is left standing, which will be the truth.
That's how science works.

As the founder of a forum which prides itself on scientific thinking and evidence based reasoning you  should ENCOURAGE efforts like Bellingcat and open source journalism, instead of actively smearing Eliot Higgins and allowing these threads to turn into a fact-free Russian propaganda outlet.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:33:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4563 on: September 20, 2018, 08:57:54 AM »
My problem with Bellingcat* operating under a veneer of 'open source' (implying independence and objectivity, when sources aren't actually fully open at all), is that there's a massive amount of interpretation, insinuation and omission. Just a case in point, is Higgins' recent blog post on Boshirov and Petrov's passports (the two Russians who have been designated prime suspects for the Skripal poisoning; we are awaiting all the follow-ups after last week's media storm).

The Bellingcat blog post is full of innuendo based on interpretations, and no explanation whatsoever where the materials come from, how they were obtained, and if they are genuine.

Let's focus on where the material comes from.
It is true that this is one of the few Bellingcat reports where you can't just click on a link to get to the evidence. But Roman (Bellingcat team member) does mention on Zakharova's facebook page were you can find the passport records :

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10217722156555352&id=1523648416

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Maria, it's very nice that you paid attention to our investigation. This, incidentally, is only the first part, the second will be on Monday. But I'm forced to upset you, neither Bellingsket nor The Insider Russia hacked anything. Databases, including passport , are freely sold on radio markets, in darknet and anywhere. And they trade - you will be surprised - the very valiant employees of the FMS and law enforcement agencies. And to buy an extract from the FMS does not need to be an agent of Mi-6.

So you may need to do a little bit of work, but the passport information they obtained is still publicly available.

But the main issue of course is a binary choice : Are these records authentic or falsified.
I think the Russian Foreign Ministry already answered that question by suggesting Bellingcat either hacked or bought these records.
So they are not falsified.
So they are real.

In case you are still not convinced these two blokes are working for the GRU, Bellingcat will present a new report on them tomorrow.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4564 on: September 20, 2018, 10:27:08 AM »
Neven said :

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This Twitter timeline puts up a list of objections/explanations/alternative possibilities.

Does it ?

Let's look at the first claim :
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All passport documents in Russia are typed,without exclusion.
She obviously did not check ALL the records, and thus debunks herself, since Bellingcat showed that there were handwritten notes on the record of Alexander Petrov. If she believes that Bellingcat faked these notes, all she has to do is pull the records, and present it. Just claiming that "All passport documents in Russia are typed,without exclusion" is a statement of authority, which is a logical fallacy.

And then the second claim :
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About the 195-79-66 number  As far as I remember- the last 2 digits in Soviet paperwork always represented  the year and the whole number was never a phone number.
OK. So something happened in 1966 ?

And the third one :
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It looks nothing like the real form. Is it a fake  made by  the Bellingcat "source"?

All you have to do, Elana, is pull the record, and prove Bellingcat wrong.
You did not do that, so you are waving hands, at best.

Should I go on ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4565 on: September 20, 2018, 10:52:39 AM »
Should I go on ?

No. You had said more than enough last year already. Nothing has improved since then. So yeah, give it a break and do not go on.

I wanted to put in my favorite :
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10. Petrov's  1999 passport was not in the central passport database because the database was created in 2014,

If the database was created in 2014, then why is Petrov's 2009 entry in the database ?

But you told me to give it a break, so I will.

Still interested why the founder of the ASIF is posting such obvious crap from a Russian troll.
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litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4566 on: September 20, 2018, 12:52:17 PM »
<snip; this isn't Twitter; N.>
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM by Neven »

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4567 on: September 20, 2018, 01:22:22 PM »
<snip; either post something substantive, funny or interesting; N.>
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:08:55 PM by Neven »

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4568 on: September 20, 2018, 05:36:57 PM »
If the database was created in 2014, then why is Petrov's 2009 entry in the database ?

It's questions like that which only reinforces previous judgments about your 'ability' to think clearly and logically. http://bfy.tw/JyXr (deep sigh)

Man, do I have to spell it out ?
She used the argument that Petrov's 1999 passport is NOT in the database because the database was created in 2014. But since the 2009 entry is there, that debunks that argument.
Get it now ?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4569 on: September 20, 2018, 05:38:59 PM »
<snip; this isn't Twitter; N.>

I'm not sure what litesong said here, but with all due respect, Neven, you introduced twitter in this thread, posting obvious crap from a Russian troll. Why ?
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4570 on: September 20, 2018, 10:00:22 PM »
I'm not sure what litesong said here, but with all due respect, Neven, you introduced twitter in this thread, posting obvious crap from a Russian troll. Why ?

Do you receive notifications for this thread in your mail? I don't know what litesong's goal is, but he's oneliners in some kind of vernacular that is supposed to be funny, but there's no real analysis or opinion in it. Coupled with some of the stuff he's pushing the Arctic sea ice part of the forum, I don't have much patience for it.

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As the founder of a forum which prides itself on scientific thinking and evidence based reasoning you  should ENCOURAGE efforts like Bellingcat and open source journalism, instead of actively smearing Eliot Higgins and allowing these threads to turn into a fact-free Russian propaganda outlet.

I don't know what this forum prides itself on, but I actually do encourage independent, alternative journalism. Which brings me back to my problem with Bellingcat: The driving forces behind them associate themselves with neocon, war-mongering, fracking-pushing think tanks.

In principle, an initiative like Bellingcat is fantastic. In practice, people like Higgins and Toler screw it up by being so openly biased. If this weren't so, I wouldn't even pay attention to it, but to me this looks like a ploy by TPTB to circumvent the distrust people have for mainstream media (rightfully so). If it isn't some form of astroturfing, it's very close to it.

Sure, the geolocating stuff is cool, but it's the way this evidence is presented in a narrative (which is always the same) that bugs me. Like I said, there is a lot of interpretation, insinuation and omission in most of what I've seen from Bellingcat (especially if Higgins is part of it). For instance, the piece on the passports, you read stuff like this:

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However, no records exist for these two personas prior to 2009. This suggests the two names were likely cover identities for operatives of one of the Russian security services. Crucially, at least one man’s passport files contain various “top-secret” markings, which, according to at least two sources consulted by Bellingcat, are typically reserved for members of secret services or top state operatives.

'suggests' - innuendo and jumping to conclusions
'top secret markings' - interpretation
'according to at least two sources' - hearsay, if true ('two sources told me Higgins receives 10K per month from Lockheed-Martin')

Or this:

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That source surmised that this marking reserved for operatives of the state under deep cover.

'surmised' - now it's surmised, in other words assumed by an anonymous source, and thus still hearsay
'reserved for operatives' - doesn't make sense, just like operatives flying under their own name, Moscow-London direct, but whatever

The Twitter timeline I linked to, was just an example of all the potential omissions. Alternative explanations are simply not discussed, because that doesn't fit the pre-determined narrative. And this pre-determined, biased narrative obviously ties in with the interests of organisations like the Atlantic Council (we could discuss that some more if you like).

So, again, my problem with Bellingcat is its obvious bias, and thus the way the evidence is framed. It is not science.
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sidd

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4571 on: September 20, 2018, 11:19:48 PM »
One thing that never seems to be revealed in all the video/audio/image evidence is the audit trail.

Who is creator ? who had possession of it ? where are the affidavits attesting to creation and transfer? where are the checksums showing the evidence is unaltered ?

Each of these would be necessary in a court of law. But, of course in a propaganda war, none of the rules of evidence need be applied.

Sorta like the claims of various "senior officials" and "intelligence agencies" that we have heard forever. We were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. We do not assassinate foreign leaders. We do not torture. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. We do not intercept millions of calls without warrants. There is not enuf evidence to prosecute torturers. Or bankers. The 2008 crisis was caused by irresponsible borrowers. ...

The litany of lies goes on, and the powers that be actually expect us to believe them. Alas, their illusions are fraying.

sidd
 

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4572 on: September 21, 2018, 12:24:18 AM »
One thing that never seems to be revealed in all the video/audio/image evidence is the audit trail.

Who is creator ? who had possession of it ? where are the affidavits attesting to creation and transfer? where are the checksums showing the evidence is unaltered ?

Each of these would be necessary in a court of law. But, of course in a propaganda war, none of the rules of evidence need be applied.

Sorta like the claims of various "senior officials" and "intelligence agencies" that we have heard forever. We were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. We do not assassinate foreign leaders. We do not torture. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. We do not intercept millions of calls without warrants. There is not enuf evidence to prosecute torturers. Or bankers. The 2008 crisis was caused by irresponsible borrowers. ...

The litany of lies goes on, and the powers that be actually expect us to believe them. Alas, their illusions are fraying.

sidd
 

This is a comment I forgot to post earlier but it points to possible solutions to these 'trust' issues.

Quote
It was new to me too till I saw a news segment on PBS News Hour.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/can-blockchain-help-fill-journalisms-funding-gaps

This was on their website:
[Civil] seeks to eliminate the possibility of one company or a small group of investors exerting power and influence over a journalistic organization and compromising its mission.

You will find several opinion pieces from well several well known institutions like Columbia Jounalism Review, The New York Times, TechCrunch etc.. that can explain it much better than I can.

Many of the 'news rooms' they have started cover a variety of subject areas. Most seem to have a local  flavor but there are some that are topic specific.
http://readsludge.com/
https://ecowurd.com/

I didn't see anything that actually used blockchain to verify sources but I think it could be done.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4573 on: September 21, 2018, 02:29:46 AM »

It needs to be pointed out to you Rob, that while you can have and hold your own opinions, you are not the Hall Monitor nor the Camp Kommandant. And I am not a Jew nor a Russian POW in a Concentration Camp.

Completely inappropriate.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4574 on: September 21, 2018, 04:59:55 AM »
Lurk,
I don't claim to be superior to anyone but I am fairly familiar with a few knowledge domains. I have aerospace engineering background with a degree in computer science so I do have a bias toward technology. AI is here to solve problems people are interested in and not to subvert the human race. But as AI gets more and more powerful, faster and faster, there is real danger it will change our reality and there is no guarantee we will adapt to it without major disruptions to economies and societies.

As Yoda says, "Use the force Lurk".

https://books.google.com/talktobooks/query?q=people%20actually%20trust%20machines%20more%20than%20they%20trust%20their%20fellow%20humans&

Did you know people actually trust machines more than they trust their fellow humans? You might think that's a flaw in human nature but it's not.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4575 on: September 21, 2018, 05:21:48 AM »
..... a Russian POW in a Concentration Camp...... Lynching..... fair trial..... fair trial..... Fair trial..... fair trial....
Our Estonian pastor was in a russian concentration camp.
 Lynching..... Clarence Thomas already used that term.
Fair trial..... What, ya don't get no fair trial in the russian hacking & trolling building they got ya penned in, typing away? We understand your plea fer help.   
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:28:14 AM by litesong »

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4576 on: September 21, 2018, 05:56:10 AM »
....You had said more than enough....
Ah.... now I see why your russian keepers are upset with your typing skills. You've only been putting out 9.223 posts per day. You's got ta do betta. Ya gotta insert the "russian pump info" into yer posts faster.....

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4577 on: September 21, 2018, 06:02:12 AM »
She? Who is she? Best you stop assuming me.... Lynchings.....
Yes, I agree with you. That's why I'm using the much more accurate, "it" to describe you.
Again, C. Thomas already, way ahead of ya.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4578 on: September 21, 2018, 06:27:40 AM »
I am convinced you never spent enough time studying and comprehending the value Philosophy, Human Logic, Human Psychology, Morality or Ethics.
I think you are mistaken as I have spent thousands of hours reading and researching those subjects.
This is a partial list of books, videos and audio recordings I have read, watched or listened to.

Philosophy:
A.C. Grayling - The Good Book
Adam Nicolson - Why Homer Matters
Alan Watts
Alan Watts lectures
Philosophy of Alan Watts
The Tao of Philosophy
An Introduction to Metaphysics
Ancient Greek Philosophy by Tom and Hugh Griffith
Anu Partanen - The Nordic Theory of Everything
Aristotle - Politics
Aristotle - Rhetoric, Poetics and Logic
Baron De Montesquieu - The Spirit of the Laws
BBC - Plato - The Last Days of Socrates
Bertrand Russell
Religion and Science
What I Believe
Why I Am Not A Christian
Bertrand Russell - History of Western Philosophy
Christopher Hitchens - Letters to a Young Contrarian
Confucius, Lao Tzu, & Chinese Philosophy
Dr. Mary Mahowald - Lying, Secrecy, & Privacy
Dr. Quantum - Meet the real creator - You!
Eckhart Tolle - A New Earth (2008)
Existentialism and the Meaning of Life
Friedrich Nietzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Henry Louis Mencken - The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
Giants Of Philosophy
Greg McKeown - Essentialism - The Disciplined Pursuit of Less
Hegel-Introduction to the Philosophy of History
History Of Philosophy, without any gaps
Classical Aristotle
Socrates and Plato
The Presocratics
Indian Later Antiquity
Ancient Christianity
Hellenistic Philosophy
Late Antiquity
Medieval Philosophy in the Islamic World
Andalusia Formative Period
The Eastern Traditions
Hugh Griffith - Aristotle - An Introduction
Immanuel Kant - Critique of Pure Reason
James Q. Wilson - The Moral Sense
John M. Shanahan - The Most Brilliant Thoughts of All Time
Jostein Gaarder - Sophie's World
Julian Baggini - The Pig that Wants to be Eaten And Ninety-Nine Other Thought Experiments
Karl Marx Wage Labor and Capital (1847)
Ken Wilber - A Brief History of Everything
Ken Wilber - Integral Operating System
Ken Wilbur - Kosmic Consciousness
Kenneth C. Davis - Don't Know Much About Mythology
Machiavelli - The Prince
Matt Ridley - The Evolution of Everything
Morality in Our Age - Richard DeGeorge
Paul Johnson - Intellectuals From Marx and Tolstoy to Sartre and Chomsky
Paul Kennedy - Rene Descartes
Plato - Apology
Plato - Symposium
Plato - The Trial & The Death of Socrates
Plato and a Platypus walk into a Bar
Plato, Socrates
René Descartes - Meditations on first philosophy
Richard Tarnas - The Passion of the Western Mind
Rick Roderick - The Self Under Siege
Robert A. Segal - Myth - A Very Short Introduction (2004)
Ronald Wright - A Short History of Progress
Russell Shorto - Descartes' Bones - A Skeletal History of the Conflict Between Faith and Reason
Socrates The Man and His Thought
Susan Jacoby - The Age of American Unreason
The Enlightenment - Invention of the Modern Self
Thomas R Flynn - Existentialism - A Very Short Introduction (2006)
Timothy Leary
TMS - Ethics, A History of Moral Thought
TMS - Ethics - A History of Moral Thought (Guidebook)
TMS - Faith and Reason - The Philosophy of Religion
TMS - Ideas that Shaped Mankind
TMS - Philosopher in You
TMS - The Enlightenment - Reason, Tolerance, and Humanity
Toltec Wisdom of Don Miguel Ruiz
TTC - Birth of the Modern Mind
TTC - Consciousness And Its Implications
TTC - Emerson, Thoreau, and the Transcendentalist Movement
TTC - Ethics and Public Policy
TTC - Ethics of Aristotle
TTC - From Plato to Post-Modernism
TTC - Great Ideas of Philosophy
TTC - Great Minds of the Western Intellectual Tradition
TTC - Great Philosophical Debates - Free Will and Determinism
TTC - Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise - Dante's Divine Comedy
TTC - Heroes, Heroines, and the Wisdom of Myth
TTC - Introduction to Greek Philosophy
TTC - Machiavelli in Context
TTC - Mind of the Enlightenment
TTC - Natural Law and Human Nature
TTC - Nietzsche and the Post-Modern Condition
TTC - Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, Rawls and Foucault
TTC - No Excuses - Existentialism
TTC - Origin Of The Modern Mind
TTC - Passions-Philosophy and the Intelligence of Emotions
TTC - Philosophy and Human Values
TTC - Philosophy and Religion in the West
TTC - Philosophy as a Guide to Living
TTC - Philosophy of Mind
TTC - Philosophy of Religion
TTC - Plato's Republic
TTC - Power Over People
TTC - Practical Philosophy - The Greco-Roman Moralists
TTC - Quest for Meaning - Values, Ethics, & the Modern Experience
TTC - Questions of Value
TTC - The Search for a Meaningful Past
TTC - Thomas Aquinas - The Angelic Doctor
TTC - Voltaire and the Triumph of the Enlightenment
TTC - Will to Power - The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
TTC - World Philosophy
Voltaire - Candide
Walter Kaufmann
Will Durant - Historian
================
Politics:
Al Franken -Lies And the Lying Liars, Oh, The Things I Know, The Truth with Jokes
Al Gore - The Assault on Reason
Alexander Cockburn - Beating The Devil (2002)
Anarchism - A Very Short Introduction
Anarchism and Other Essays by Emma Goldman
Andy Andrews - How Do You Kill Eleven Million People
Anne C. Heller - Ayn Rand and the World She Made
Arianna Huffington - Third World America
Arundhati Roy - Come September [In Conversation With Howard Zinn]
David Mendell - Obama - From Promise to Power
Barack Obama- Dreams From My Father
Janny Scott - A Singular Woman (2011)
Bill Clinton My Life
Bill Press - The Obama Hate Machine
Bob Woodward
Bush at War
Obama's Wars
Plan of Attack
State of Denial
The Price of Politics
Chaozhu Ji - The Man on Mao's Right From Harvard to Tiananmen Square
Charles Pierce - Idiot America
Chris Hayes - Twilight of the Elites
Chris Hedges - American Fascists The Christian Right and the War on America
Chris Mooney - The Republican Brain
Christian Parenti - Taking Liberties, Prisons, Policing & Surveillance
Corporate Media - Corporate Rule
Craig Unger
House of Bush, House of Saud
The Fall of the House of Bush
Dana Milbank - Homo Politicus
Dana Milbank - Tears of a Clown
Daniel Ellsberg - Secrets
David Brock - The Republican Noise Machine
David J. Rothkopf - Superclass The Global Power Elite And The World They Are Making
David Von Drehle - Triangle The Fire That Changed America
Decision Points - George W Bush
Dick Gregory -The Light Side The Dark Side
Dmitri Volkogonov - Lenin
Doris Goodwin - FDR - No Ordinary Time
Doris Kearns Goodwin - Team of Rivals
Edward J. Larson - Magnificent Catastrophe - The Tumultuous Election of 1800
Eric Alterman Why We're Liberals
Eric Hufschmid
Fareed Zakaria, Future of Freedom, The Post-American World
Fergus M. Bordewich - The First Congress
Francis Fukuyama, The Origins of Political Order from Pre-human Times to the French Revolution
Frank I. Luntz, What Americans Really Want
Fred Kaplan - Daydream Believers - How a Few Grand Ideas Wrecked American Power
F-U-B-A-R America's Right-Wing Nightmare
Game Change
George Dubya Bush
George Humphrey - Uncommon Sense
George Lakoff, The Essential Guide for Progressives (2004), Whose Freedom
George Tenet - At The Center of the Storm
Giants of Political Thought
Greg Palast, Armed Madhouse, Election 2000
GW Bush - From The Mind Of A C Student
Gwen Ifill - The Breakthrough - Politics and Race in the Age of Obama
Harry G. Frankfurt - On Bullshit
Henry Butterfield Ryan - The Fall of Che Guevara
Henry David Thoreau - Walden
Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States_ A Lecture at Reed College
Artists In A Time Of War
Heroes and Martyrs
Stories Hollywood Never Tells
Inside WikiLeaks (2011)
Ira Basen - Spin Cycles
IRS Fraud on America
James Bamford - The Shadow Factory
James K. Galbraith - The Predator State
JFK, Historic Conversations on Life with JFK - Jacqueline Kennedy
Jon Meacham - Franklin And Winston
JFK Assassination
The Kennedys
Vincent Bugliosi - Reclaiming History - The Assassination of JFK
Jim Hightower - Let's Stop Beating Around The Bush
Jimmy Carter, Christmas In Plains, Our Endangered Values, Palestine Peace Not Apartheid
John Mearsheimer The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
John Perkins, Confessions Of An Economic Hit Man
The Secret History of the American Empire
John W Dean, Broken Government, Conservatives Without Conscience, Worse Than Watergate
Jon Meacham - American Gospel
Jon Stewart, America
Joseph Cummins - Anything for a Vote
Joseph Nye - The Future of Power
Joshua Ramo - The Age of the Unthinkable
Kate Andersen Brower - The Residence - Inside the White House
Lenin  Two Tactics of Social-Democracy in the Democratic Revolution
Two Tactics - Lenin
Malcolm X
Mark Crispin Miller, Fooled Again
Matthew Stewart - Nature's God - The Heretical Origins of the American Republic
Maureen Dowd, Are Men Necessary
Bushworld
Max Blumenthal - Republican Gomorrah
Michael Moore, Dude, Where's My Country, Will They Ever Trust Us Again
Michelle Alexander - The New Jim Crow (2012)
Molly Ivins, Bushwhacked, Shrub, Who Let The Dogs In
Nemesis The Last Days Of The American Republic by Tom Weiner
Nick Davies - Flat Earth News
No Way To Pick A President By Jules Witcover
Noam Chomsky, Failed States The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy
Noam Chomsky, Making the Future (2011)
Noam Chomsky - Capital Rules - For A Free Humanity - For Anarchy - 1997
Noam Chomsky - Case Studies In Hypocrisy
Noam Chomsky - Class War
Noam Chomsky - Drugs, Guerillas, and Counterinsurgency
Noam Chomsky - East Timor Analysis - 1995
Noam Chomsky - Free Market Fantasies - Capitalism In The Real World - 1999
Noam Chomsky - Hedgemony Or Survival
Noam Chomsky - Human Rights and American Foreign Policy
Noam Chomsky - Imperial Presidency
Noam Chomsky - Iran
Noam Chomsky - Linguistics & Philosophy
Noam Chomsky - Manufacturing Consent
Noam Chomsky - Marijuana
Noam Chomsky - Propaganda & Control of the Public Mind (1998)
Noam Chomsky - Prospects For Democrasy - 1998
Noam Chomsky - reviews and corrects George Bush
Noam Chomsky - The Clinton Vision - Old Wine, New Bottles - 1997
Noam Chomsky - The Emerging Framework of World Power (2003)
Noam Chomsky - The New War On Terrorism
What We Say Goes
Paul Krugman, The Conscience of a Liberal
Peter Baker - Days of Fire - Bush and Cheney in the White House
Peter Navarro - The Coming China Wars
Planetary Biology and the Anti-Capitalist Revolution
Presidential Campaign Songs
Rachel Maddow - Drift
Richard A Clarke, Against All Enemies, Breakpoint, The Scorpion's Gate
Richard Wolffe - Renegade - Making of a President
Rick Shenkman - Just How Stupid Are We
Rise of the Warrior Cop (2012)
Robert A. Caro - The Years of Lyndon Johnson Volumes 1 - 4
Volume 1 - The Path to Power
Volume 2 - Means of Ascent
Volume 3 - Master of the Senate
Volume 4 - The Passage of Power
Robert Anton Wilson
Robert B Reich
Robert Baer - See No Evil
Robert Dallek - An Unfinished Life-JFK 1917-1963
Robert G. Kaiser - So Damn Much Money
Robert Greene - The 48 Laws of Power
Roger Penrose - The Emporer's New Mind
Ron Paul - The Revolution A Manifesto
Ron Suskind, The One Percent Doctrine, The Price of Loyalty, The Way of the World_ A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism
Sasha Abramsky - American Furies Crime, Punishment, and Vengeance in the Age of Mass Imprisonment
Scott McClellan - What Happened
Scott McClellan - What Happened Part 01
Scott McClellan - What Happened Part 02
Seymour M. Hersh, Chain of Command_ The Road from 9_11 to Abu Ghraib
Stephen Colbert, I Am America And So Can You (2007)
Stephen Kinzer  - Overthrow (2006)
Stephen Kinzer - All the Shah's Men
Ted Sorensen - Counselor - A Life at the Edge of History
Teddy Roosevelt
James Bradley - The Imperial Cruise
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn - Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire That Saved America
The Age of American Unreason - Susan Jacoby
The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
The Book on Bush - How George W. (Mis)leads America
The Daily Show and Philosophy
The Dark Side - The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals
The Economics of Fascism
The Post-American World
The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder
Thom Hartmann - Screwed - The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class
Thomas Ayres-That’s Not in My American History Book
Thomas Paine - Common Sense
Rights of Man by Thomas Paine
TMS - Political Theory- The Classic Texts
TMS - The People and the Ballot
TTC - Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights
TTC - Cycles of American Political Thought
TTC - Ethics of Public Policy Lecture
TTC - Freedom - The Philosophy of Liberation
TTC - History of Freedom
TTC - Ideas In Politics
TTC - Power Over People
TTC - The Conservative Tradition
TTC - What Does It Mean To Be An American
Uncovering Clinton - Michael Iskoff
VHeadline.com - Roy Carson
Voices of Black America Historical Recordings
Voices of Black America_ Historical Recordings 1908-1947_ Disc 1
Voices of Black America_ Historical Recordings 1908-1947_ Disc 2
W. Cleon Skousen - The 5,000 Year Leap
William Cooper, Behold a Pale Horse

continued;
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4579 on: September 21, 2018, 06:28:45 AM »
====================

Psychology:
A. Brad Schwartz - Broadcast Hysteria
Antonio Damasio - The Feeling of What Happens - Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness
Christakis and Fowler - Connected The Surprising Power Of Our Social Network
Dan Ariely - The Honest Truth About Dishonesty
Dan Ariely - The Upside of Irrationality
Daniel C. Dennett - Consciousness Explained
Daniel Goleman - Social Intelligence
Daniel Kahneman - Thinking, Fast and Slow
David Linden - The Compass of Pleasure
Deep In Hate - Origins Of Inequality
Derren Brown - Tricks of the Mind
Dini von Mueffling - The 50 Most Romantic Things Ever Done
Dr.Tim Cantopher - The Curse of the Strong
Eric Weiner - The Geography of Bliss
Evan Wright - Hella Nation - Adventures with the Totally Lost Tribes of America
Jonah Lehrer - How We Decide
Kevin Dutton - The Wisdom of Psychopaths
Loneliness - Human Nature and the Need for Social Connection
Malcolm Gladwell
Blink
The Tipping Point
What the Dog Saw
Michael Shermer - Why People Believe Weird Things
Musicophilia - Tales of Music and the Brain
Nick Tasler - The Impulse Factor Why Some of Us Play It Safe and Others Risk It All
Patricia B. McConnell - For The Love of a Dog
Paul Bloom - How Pleasure Works
Sebastian Junger - Tribe
Shawn Achor - The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology
Steven Johnson - Mind Wide Open
Steven Pinker - How The Mind Works
Steven Pinker - The Better Angels of Our Nature
Stuart Sutherland - Irrationality
Sway - The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior
The Definitive Book Of Body Language
The Noonday Demon - An Atlas of Depression
The Psychopath Test - A Journey Through the Madness Industry
The Red Queen - Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature
The Wisdom of Psychopaths
Theories of Human Development
Thomas R. Klassen - An Introduction to Sociology
Thomas Szasz - Psychiatry - The Science of Lies
Tom Butler-Bowdon - 50 Psychology Classics -  Insight and Inspiration From 50 Key Books
TTC - Abnormal Psycholoy
TTC - Explaining Social Deviance
TTC - Love & Vengeance
TTC - Psychology of Human Behavior
TTC - Roots of Human Behavior
TTC - The Developing Adult - Biological and Psychosocial Perspectives
TTC - The Great Ideas of Psychology
TTC - The Life of the Mind
TTC - The Life of the Mind - An Introduction to Psychology
TTC - Theories of Human Development
Viktor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning
You Are Not So Smart
===================

Religion:
Atheism
Chris Hedges - I Don't Believe in Atheists
Christopher Hitchens
Christopher Hitchens - Arguably, Essays
God is Not Great
Hitch-22 A Memoir
The Portable Atheist
David Mills - Atheist Universe
Evidence for God  William Lane Craig vs Lawrence Krauss
Irreligion -  John Allen Paulos
Penn-Jillette - Every Day is an Atheist Holiday
Richard Dawkins
The God Delusion
Sam Harris
Letter to a Christian Nation
The End of Faith
The Moral Landscape_ How Science Can Determine Human Values
The View from The End of the World
Waking Up
Sean Faircloth - Attack of the Theocrats
The Munk Debate - Is Religion A Force For Good In The World
Bart D Ehrman - Did Jesus Exist
Bart D Ehrman - Forged-Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are
Bart D Ehrman - Misquoting Jesus
Bart D Ehrman - Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene
Bart D Ehrman - The Greatest Controversies of Early Christian History
Bart D Ehrman - The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot
Bart D Ehrman - Truth and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code
Bart D Erhman - God's Problem
Bertrand Russell - Religion and Science
BR1 What I Believe (Russell)
BR2 Why I Am Not a Christian (Russell)
BR3 A Free Man's Worship (Russell)
BR4 Religion and Science (Russell)
Book of the Tao
Tao Te Ching  - Stephen Mitchell
The Second Book of the Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell
=====================================
Buddism
Buddhism Plain and Simple
Dalai Lama - eight verses for training the mind
The Naked Buddha - Adrienne Howley
Three Pillars of Zen - Philip Kapleau
TTC - Great World Religions - Buddhism
Chris Hedges American Fascists The Christian Right and the War on America
Confuscius - The Analects
David L. Lewis - God's Crucible
David Shipler - Arab and Jew - Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land
Druids
Barry Cunliffe - The Druids
Elaine Pagels & Karen L. King - The Gospel of Judas and the Shaping of Christianity
Everything You Know about God Is Wrong - Volume 2
=====================================
Islam
Bernard Lewis
What Went Wrong - The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East
Koran - Arabic English Translation (by Qari Waheed Zafar Qasmi)
Lesley Hazleton - After the Prophet The Epic Story of the Shia-Sunni Split in Islam
Quran In English 3 Surahs concerning Jesus & Moses
Sean Barrett - Muhammad - His life based on the earliest sources
=====================================
Jason Berry - Render Unto Rome
John Lawrence Reynolds - Secret Societies
Jonathan Miller
Atheism Tapes Interviews
Brief History of Disbelief
Joseph Campbell
Julia Sweeney - Letting Go Of God
Karen Armstrong - A History of God
Karen Armstrong - Myths
Kevin Phillips - American Theocracy
Martin Marty - The Christian World
Neil Wenborn - Religions of the World
Nicholas Wade - The Faith Instinct; How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures (2009)
Ralph Waldo Emerson - Essays on Spirituality
Religion, Scriptures & Spirituality
Buddhism
Confucianism and Taoism
Hinduism
Islam
Judaism
Judaism - Part 1
Native Religions of the Americas
Orthodox & Roman Catholic Christianity
Protestant Christianity
Skepticism & Religious Relativism
The Religion of Small Societies
Religions of India
TTC - The Religions of India - Diana Eck
St. Augustine
St. Augustine - Confessions
The Bible and the Roots of Western Literature
The Crusades Through Arab Eyes
The Evolution of God
The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
The Reformation - Patrick Collinson
The Wisdom of the Gnostics
Thomas E. Woods, Jr - How Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
Thomas More - Utopia
TMS - Eternal Chalice-The Grail in Literature and Legend
TMS - God Wills It! Understanding the Crusades
TMS - Heaven or Heresy- A History of the Inquisition
TMS - The Quest -The Historians' Search for Jesus and Muhammad
TTC - American Religion History
TTC - Apocalypse Now, Apocalypse Then
TTC - Augustine - Philosopher and Saint
TTC - Between Cross & Crescent
TTC - Book of Genesis
TTC - Can The Modern World Believe In God
TTC - Era Of The Crusades
TTC - Europe & Wars of Religion 1500-1700
TTC - Fall of the Pagans and the Origins of Medieval Christianity
Fall Of The Pagans And The Origins Of Medieval Christianity
TTC - Francis of Assisi
TTC - From Jesus To Constantine
From Jesus to Constantine
TTC - God and Mankind - Comparitive Religions
TTC - Hinduism
TTC - Historical Jesus
TTC - Introduction to Judaism
TTC - Jewish Mysticism
TTC - Lost Christianities
TTC - Philosophy Of Religion
TTC - Popes
TTC - Popes and the Papacy
TTC - Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World
TTC - Religions of the Axial Age
TTC - Science and Religion
TTC - The Apostle Paul
TTC - The History of the Bible
TTC - The Religion of our Founding Fathers
TTC - The Terror of History
Understanding the Crusades
Why Bother With the Bible
William James - The Varieties of Religious Experience

continued;
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4580 on: September 21, 2018, 06:29:58 AM »
Anthropology:
Before the Dawn - Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors
Brian Fagan - Cro-Magnon
David Suzuki - From Naked Ape to Superspecies
Jared Diamond - Collapse - How Societies Choose To Fail Or Succeed
Jared Diamond - The Third Chimpanzee
Jared Diamond - The World Until Yesterday
Light At The Edge Of The World A Journey Through the Realm of Vanishing Cultures
Malthus and the Third Millennium
Michael Pollan -- Omnivore's Dilemma
PREHISTORY - Colin Renfrew
Sex at Dawn - The Prehistoric Origins.of Modern Sexuality
Sue Hubbell - Waiting for Aphrodite
TTC - Peoples and Cultures of the World
William Carlsen - Jungle of Stone
=====================================

Archeology:
Alan Weisman - The World Without Us
Peter Daughtrey - Atlantis and the Silver City
Susan McCarter - An Introduction to Archeology
TTC - Classical Archaeology of Ancient Greece and Rome
=====================================

Astronomy:
Alex Filippenko - Understanding the Universe
Astronomy Earth, Sky and Planets
Brian Greene - The Elegant Universe
Carl Sagan
Pale Blue Dot
Dava Sobel - The Planets
David Weintraub - How Old Is the Universe
Jack Arnold - Origins of the Universe
Janna Levin - How the Universe Got Its Spots
Jim Bell - The Interstellar Age
Marcia Bartusiak - The Day We Found the Universe
Michio Kaku - Parallel Worlds
Mike Brown - How I killed Pluto
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Death by Black Hole And Other Cosmic Quandaries
The Pluto Files_ The Rise and Fall of America's Favorite Planet
Richard Panek - The 4% Universe
Stephen Hawking
A Briefer History of Time
The Grand Design
The Universe in a Nutshell
TMS - Stars Galaxies & the Universe
TTC - Dark Matter, Dark Energy
TTC - My Favorite Universe (Neil Tyson)
TTC - The Search For Life In Outer Space
TTC - Understanding the Universe
=====================================

Aviation:
Craig Nelson - Rocket Men
David McCullogh - The Wright Brothers
Donald L. Miller - Masters of the Air
Gavin Mortimer - Chasing Icarus
Lawrence Goldstone - Birdmen
Matthew Brzezinski - Red Moon Rising
Michael D'Antonio - A Ball, a Dog, and a Monkey-1957, The Space Race Begins
Michelle L. Evans - The X-15 Rocket Plane Flying the First Wings into Space
Rick Houston - Wheels Stop The Tragedies and Triumphs of the Space Shuttle Program, 1986-2011
Stephen E. Ambrose - The Wild Blue
=====================================

Biology:
Biological Anthropology
Biology of Belief
Bruce Lipton - The Wisdom Of Your Cells
Carl Safina - Voyage of the Turtle
Carl Zimmer - Evolution - The Triumph of an Idea
Charles Darwin
Darwin, Darwinism, and The Modern World
Darwin, Darwinism, and The Modern World guidebook
Janet Browne
Darwin's Origin of Species
Voyage of the Beagle
David Hone - The Tyrannosaur Chronicles
Edward Larson - Evolution - The Remarkable History Of A Scientific Theory
Frans de Waal - Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are
Frans De Waal - The Age of Empathy
Fungi - The Fifth Kingdom
Jacques Cousteau - The Human, the Orchid, and the Octopus
James Watson - DNA The Secret of Life
Jared Diamond- Why Is Sex Fun
Jennifer Ackerman - The Genius of Birds
Jerry A. Coyne - Why Evolution Is True
John McPhee - The Founding Fish
Lewis Thomas
The Fragile Species
The Youngest Science
Matt Ridley - Nature Via Nurture
Michael Crichton - Next
Michio Kaku - The Future of the Mind
Neil Shubin - Your Inner Fish
Rachel Carson - Silent Spring
Richard Dawkins
River Out of Eden
The Ancestor's Tale
The Blind Watchmaker
The Greatest Show on Earth
The Selfish Gene
Sam Kean - The Violinist's Thumb
Sean B. Carroll - Endless Forms Most Beautiful
Sean B. Carroll - Remarkable Creatures
Stephen Jay Gould
Bully For Brontosaurus (1991)
Dinosaur In A Haystack (1995)
Eight Little Piggies (1993)
Evolution And Extinction
Hen's Teeth & Horse's Toes (1983)
Leonardo's Mountain of Clams & The Diet of Worms (1998)
Rocks of Ages (1999)
Susan Casey - The Devil's Teeth
The Medusa and the Snail - More Notes of a Biology Watcher
Thomas Hager - The Demon Under The Microscope
TTC - Biology And Human Behavior
TTC - Biology The Science of Life
TTC - Darwinian Revolution
TTC - Origins of Life
TTC - The Developing Adult - Biological and Psychosocial Perspectives
TTC - Theory of Evolution - History of Controversy
William Souder - On a Farther Shore - The Life and Legacy of Rachel Carson
=====================================

Chemistry:
Hugh Aldersey Williams - Periodic Tales
TTC - Chemistry
=====================================

Computer Science:
Andrew Blum - Tubes
Cory Doctorow - Information Doesn't Want To Be Free
Daniel May - Hatching Twitter
David Locke Hall - CRACK99
Fred Kaplan - Dark Territory
How Google Works - Eric Schmidt_Jonathan Rosenberg
Jamie Bartlett - The Dark Net
Jane Smiley - The Man Who Invented the Computer
John Brockman - What to Think About Machines That Think
Parmy Olson - We Are Anonymous
Ray Kurzweil - The Age Of Spititual Machines
Ray Kurzweil - The Singularity is Near
Virginia Heffernan - Magic and Loss
Worm - The First Digital World War (2011)
=====================================

Energy:
Coal - A Human History
Peter Tertzakian - A Thousand Barrels a Second
Ted Koppel - Lights Out
Tom Zoellner - Uranium
=====================================

Exploration:
Alec Wilkinson - The Ice Balloon
Anthony Brandt - The Man Who Ate His Boots
Apsley Cherry-Garrard - The Worst Journey in the World
Charles C. Mann - 1493 - Uncovering the New World Columbus Created
Donnie Eichar - Dead Mountain The Untold True Story of the Dyatlov Pass Incident
George Michelsen Foy - Finding North
Hampton Sides - In the Kingdom of Ice
James Tabor - Blind Descent
Ken Ilgunas - Trespassing Across America
Laurence Bergreen - Columbus-The Four Voyages
Laurence Bergreen - Marco Polo, From Venice to Xanadu
Laurence Bergreen - Over the Edge of the World, Magellan's Circumnavigation of the Globe
Lewis and Clark - Landon Jones
Stephen Petranek - How We'll Live on Mars
The Lewis & Clark Journals
=====================================

Geology:
Assembling California
Charles Fishman - The Big Thirst - The Secret Life and Turbulent Future of Water
David R. Montgomery - Dirt, The Erosion of Civilizations
Donald R. Prothero - Catastrophes! (2011)
Sara Wheeler - Terra Incognita  Travels in Antarctica
Simon Winchester - Krakatoa
Susan Casey - The Wave - In Pursuit of the Rogues, Freaks and Giants of the Ocean
Susan W. Kieffer - The Dynamics of Disaster
T Rex and the Crater of Doom
The Control Of Nature
The Seashell On The Mountaintop
=====================================

History of Science:
13 Things That Dont Make Sense
Alan Gurney -  Compass
Alan Turing - The Enigma
Amir Aczel - The Riddle of the Compass
Amir D. Aczel - Uranium Wars - The Scientific Rivalry that Created the Nuclear Age
Annie Jacobsen - Area 51~ An Uncensored History
Annie Jacobsen - Operation Paperclip (2014)
Area 51
Ben Goldacre - Bad Science
Ben Miller - Its Not Rocket Science
Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything
Bill Bryson - At Home
Carl Sagan
The Demon Haunted World - Science As A Candle In The Dark - By Carl Sagan - Unabridged
Diamandis-Kotler - Abundance The Future Is Better Than You Think
Donald A Norman - Design of Everyday Things
Edward Dolnick - The Clockwork Universe
Electric Universe
Galileo A Life
Hiawatha Bray - You Are Here
How To Think About Science [CBC Ideas]
Ian Mortimer - Centuries Of Change
J.G. Crowther - Six Great Scientists - Copernicus,Galileo,Newton,Darwin,Marie Curie,Einstein
James Burke - The Day the Universe Changed
James Gleick - Faster (1999)
James Gleick - Isaac Newton (2003)
James Gleick - The Information (2011)
John Bemelmans Marciano - Whatever Happened to the Metric System-How America Kept Its Feet
Jon Gertner - The Idea Factory
Kevin Kelly - The Inevitable
Kevin Kelly - What Technology Wants
Kim Zetter - Countdown to Zero Day
Kitty Ferguson - Stephen Hawking
Leonardo - The First Scientist - Michael White
Mary Roach - Packing for Mars
Massimo Pigliucci - Nonsense on Stilts
Max Brockman - What's Next
Michael Hanlon - The Science of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Michael Pollan - In Defense of Food
Michael Shermer - The Borderlands of Science - Where Sense Meets Nonsense
Michio Kaku - Visions
Peter J. Bentley - Why Shit Happens
Randall Munroe - What If - Serious Scientific Answers to Absurd Hypothetical Questions
Richard Dawkins - The Magic Of Reality (2011)
Science in the 20th Century
Scott Woolley - The Network
Stephen L Sass - The Substance of Civilization
The Education of Henry Adams
The Reluctant Mr. Darwin - David Quammen
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - Thomas S Kuhn
Tom McNichol - AC~DC
Tom Standage - The Victorian Internet
Tom Standage - Writing on the Wall
TTC - Great Principles of Science
TTC - Great Scientific Ideas that Changed the World
TTC - History of Science - 1700-1900
TTC - History of Science - Antiquity to 1700
TTC - Philosophy of Science
TTC - Science Wars
TTC - Skepticism 101
TTC - The Joy Of Science
=====================================

Mathematics:
Amir Aczel - The Mystery of the Aleph
Calculus Made Clear
Gary Smith - Standard Deviations
Linked by Albert-Laszlo Barabasi
Nate Silver - The Signal and the Noise
Prof Scott P. Stevens - Games People Play
Sharon Bertsch McGrayne - Bayes' Rule - The Theory That Would Not Die
The Joy Of Thinking
TTC - Calculus
TTC - Meaning From Data
TTC - The Joy of Mathematics
TTC - Zero to Infinity-A History of Numbers
Zero,The Biography of a Dangerous Idea by Charles Seife
=====================================

Medical:
Andrew Weil - Why Our Health Matters
Antibiotics vs. the Superbugs 1999
Atul Gawande - Complications
Benefits of Breathwork
Cristin O'Keefe Aptowicz - Dr. Mutter's Marvels
Daniel Defoe - A Journal of the Plague Year
David James - Abortion & Euthanasia
Eric Schlosser - Fast Food Nation
Francis S. Collins - The Language of Life - DNA and the Revolution in Personalized Joe Dispenza - Your Immortal Brain
Joel Fuhrman - Super Immunity
Joel Fuhrman - The End of Diabetes
John Barry - The Great Influenza-2006
Landmark - The Inside Story of America's New Health Care Law
Libby H OConnell - The American Plate
Marcia Angell - The Truth About the Drug Companies
Melanie Warner - Pandora's Lunchbox
Michael Moss - Salt Sugar Fat - How the Food Giants Hooked Us
Morton A Meyers - Happy Accidents
Moyra Smith - Investigating the Human Genome
Norman Doidge  - The Brain That Changes Itself
Rebecca Skloot - The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks (2010)
Richard Preston - Panic in Level 4
Siddhartha Mukherjee  - The Gene
Siddhartha Mukherjee - The Emperor of All Maladies
Telepathy with Animals
The Tell-Tale Brain - VS Ramachandran
Illustrations
TTC - Doctors - The History of Scientific Medicine Revealed Through Biography
TTC - Human Body - How We Fail, How We Heal
TTC - Sensation, Perception, and the Aging Process
TTC - Understanding the Brain
=====================================

Meteorology:
Bill Nye - Unstoppable
Cherie Burns - The Great Hurricane - 1938
Clint Willis - Storm
Field Notes From A Catastrophe (2006)
James Hansen - Storms of My Grandchildren
James Lovelock - The Vanishing Face of Gaia
Jan Deblieu - Wind - How the Flow of Air Has Shaped Life, Myth, and The Land
Naomi Klein -This Changes Everything - Capitalism vs the Climate
Nicholas Stern - The Global Deal
NOAA_NASA 2014 Climate Call_011615
Tim Flannery - The Weather Makers
TTC - Earth's Changing Climate
TTC - Energy and Climate
========================

Physics:
Alan Lightman - The Accidental Universe
Amir Aczel - Gods Equation
Amir D. Aczel - Present at the Creation - The Story of CERN and the Large Hadron Collider
Brian Greene - The Hidden Reality
David Bodanis
E=MC2
Electric Universe
David Kaiser - How the Hippies Saved Physics
Entanglement - The Greatest Mystery in Physics
George Musser - The Complete Idiots Guide to String Theory (2009)
John T. Sanders
Einstein's Revolution
The Story of Electricity
Lawrence Krauss - A Universe from Nothing - Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing (2012)
Lawrence Krauss - Einstein's Biggest Blunder
Lawrence Krauss - Life, The Universe and Nothing
Lawrence Krauss - The Physics of Star Trek
Louisa Gilder - The Age of Entanglement
Michio Kaku - Physics of the Future
Michio Kaku - Physics of the Impossible
Partical Physics for non-Physicists
Pedro G. Ferreira - The Perfect Theory
Physics Lectures(1998-2003)
Richard Feynman
Perfectly Reasonable Deviations From The Beaten Track
Pleasure of Finding Things Out
Quantum Man - Richard Feynmans Life in Science
Quantum Mechanics
Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman
The Character of Physical Law
The Feynman Lectures On Physics
Principle of Least Action
Solutions Maxwells Eqns Currents Charges
The Meaning of It All
Thermodynamics
What Do You Care What Other People Think
Robert Oppenheimer - American Prometheus
Sean Carroll - The Big Picture
Steven Weinberg - Dreams of a Final Theory (1992)
The Fabric of The Cosmos (2005)
TTC - Albert Einstein - Physicist, Philosopher, Humanitarian
TTC - Einstein's Relativity and the Quantum Revolution
TTC - Great Ideas of Classical Physics
TTC - Impossible - Physics Beyond the Edge
TTC - Modern Physics for Non-Scientists
TTC - Particle Physics
TTC - Physics in Your Life

That's just the non-fiction list. I also have copies of the collected works of Mark Twain, Edgar Allen Poe and many of the most famous authors in history.
Your turn.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4581 on: September 21, 2018, 06:59:16 AM »
That's just the non-fiction list. I also have copies of the collected works of....Edgar Allen Poe ....
My wife puts ravens in her paintings.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4582 on: September 21, 2018, 07:07:20 AM »
.....maybe it was something I said that upset them so?
Oh, sorry ta hear Lurch's russian overseers are upset that "it" haven't said enough.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4583 on: September 21, 2018, 07:42:25 AM »
And possibly mercury in your food.
We used to play with mercury drops in high school chemistry.... all in line with "sigh-ants" discovery. Yeah, doin' "sigh-ants" is definitely risky. Lurch knows doin' russian putin propaganda patrol poop is dangerous, too. 

jacksmith4tx

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4584 on: September 21, 2018, 07:45:29 AM »
WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange could be seen in his final video before Internet and communications were cut off at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London last March. 

Of course if you were really 'knowledgeable' and had 'wisdom' you would know he still online on a encrypted IRC.
Piker.

Did you know the deep web is between 300 to 500 times bigger than the HTML internet that you can access via DNS? Most all of it's not indexed so Google/Bling/DuckDuckGo are useless.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4585 on: September 21, 2018, 08:34:20 AM »
If the database was created in 2014, then why is Petrov's 2009 entry in the database ?

It's questions like that which only reinforces previous judgments about your 'ability' to think clearly and logically. http://bfy.tw/JyXr (deep sigh)

Man, do I have to spell it out ?
She used the argument that Petrov's 1999 passport is NOT in the database because the database was created in 2014. But since the 2009 entry is there, that debunks that argument.
Get it now ?

She? Who is she? Best you stop assuming me or anyone else is actually following your comments and hanging on to every word. I'm not.
It's funny because I came to this cesspool of a thread only two days ago, to read news of the Russian-Israeli incident, skimming through the other posts, and even so I could easily follow Rob's comments on this unimportant matter. But I have already discovered in other more useful threads that when you have no direct answer to a post, you fly off the rails with an extremely long post full of accusations and personal attacks, trying to divert the point.

More importantly, after reading comments like these:
Quote
Take responsibility for your own comments for once. Twit. I think you have lost all reason and this is reflected in your comments and your fantasy assumption not only about russia, but also about people who comment here incl. Neven now. You are very much captured in delusional Conspiracy Theory territory for some time, imo. You come across as having lost all respect for 'evidence & facts & logic' as well as for other people.
...
You may believe that a return to Lynchings is a great civilized idea - I do not. It's unthinking biased gullible people like you who voted the Nazi party in 1933 ... that didn't end well. imo the millions of people like you in the West are far more dangerous to society and the world than a head of state ordering a hit of an traitorous ex-spy or a muslim wedding party.

Because it's people like you vote them into power and then abandon all responsibility for it to avoid Buyer's Remorse at any cost.

And from the following post:
Quote
It needs to be pointed out to you Rob, that while you can have and hold your own opinions, you are not the Hall Monitor nor the Camp Kommandant. And I am not a Jew nor a Russian POW in a Concentration Camp

Quote
You come across on this forum as someone who has lost all ideas and ability to live and speak according to Principle and the Higher Values that underpin genuine Democracy (and is why the 1933 German elections and concentration camps are totally relevant in this commentary.) 

I honestly don't know how Neven can put up with such posts. People have been banned here for far less than this, regardless of their opinions I should add. Accusing someone of being a troll is one thing, in reality this whole thread is one big trolling, but insinuating that someone is a would-be Nazi supporter is quite another.

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4586 on: September 21, 2018, 09:13:52 AM »
..... read news of the Russian-Israeli incident......on this unimportant matter.
It is the pro-putin propaganda poop line that Israeli F-16's did the double shuffle, so that a murdering torturing genocidal ally of russia, accidentally shot down a murdering torturing putin pushed russian Airfarce plane. It is obvious that a pro-putin propaganda poser would consider the matter unimportant. The facts proven by putin, himself, is that putin's got putin propaganda poop all over his face..... & that caused by 20+ year old U.S. technology, showing itself to be level with the  present-level russian putin AirFarce. putin believes if'n he squawks enough & scares people enough, nobody will notice his AirFarce inferiority. But, lots of national military are laughing around the world. Maybe some of putin's military brass had to go to the closet (unbugged?) to have a quick snicker, too.... & I ain't talkin' candy bars.   

litesong

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4587 on: September 21, 2018, 09:24:46 AM »
WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange could be seen in his final video before Internet and communications were cut off at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London last March. 

Of course if you were really 'knowledgeable' and had 'wisdom' you would know he still online on a encrypted IRC.
Piker.

Did you know the deep web is between 300 to 500 times bigger than the HTML internet that you can access via DNS? Most all of it's not indexed so Google/Bling/DuckDuckGo are useless.

I said, I'm giving it a break, aka giving YOU a break. But did you have a useful enlightening point or you just felt like grabbing the opportunity for putting me down over nothing, except that I didn't cow tow to you nor your reading list so now you're really feeling offended and justifiably outraged by that?

Oh yes Jack you're really clever and know lot's of facts. Congratulations. Now learn how to dialogue like a human being and discuss issues and ideas constructively. It'd a be good start to least view the damned video instead of promoting all the tickets you have on yourself. (sheesh)
Ah, ain't that precious! lurch & jack smurf are pretendin' they don't love each other.   

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4588 on: September 21, 2018, 10:25:22 AM »
I have stated many times (also in PM) that I largely agree with Lurk's opinions, but I disagree with his style because he loses his temper easily. This spoils everything and lets Rob off the hook. Even though I think that Rob makes many mistakes in his thinking (because of his scientific approach of something that isn't scientific), I believe 100% in his honesty and integrity. We all do bad things without being aware, even though at heart we aren't all that bad (though some are, unfortunately).

And so, Lurk, I'm going to ask you now to refrain from doing that. You have good points and if you drive them home the right way, you can look very convincing. You spoil it by lashing out, even though you do have a valid point that Rob is doing something similar (though more politely). It is annoying to be called a Putin apologist, just because you question certain narratives and sources. And it is depressing to see good people supporting the thinking that pushes for strife, conflict and war, because it's the same process that causes AGW, and this is just wasting everybody's time, which is the whole idea behind it ('This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.').

But no one has ever been convinced by a punch in the face. If you can't act otherwise, it's better for you to find another forum.

---

PS Rob, litesong has posted another series of examples why I snipped his comments yesterday. Not because of his opinions (which he doesn't state clearly), but because they are not funny, don't offer anything, and they're annoying to read because of some supposedly punny vernacular. I forgot whether he was the commenter inserting TSI BS into the melting season thread, but I'm going to read back now, and if he is, I'm banning him.

edit: I've read through litesong's comments, and there are many instances where he starts conflicts. I wouldn't be surprised if litesong is actually a climate risk denier who acts like an annoying 'librul' to spoil the atmosphere here, but I can't prove it. However, I'm not going to tolerate any more of it, so either he changes his style, or he's out of here.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 10:54:17 AM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4589 on: September 21, 2018, 11:10:18 AM »
Rob spoils it and so do others who also get hot under the collar instantly - then accuse me of stuff not said, not even close. I'm not responsible for other peoples interpretations who don't take things literally but instead MAKE UP WORDS not said, and MEANINGS not there because their buttons get pressed by "trigger words" .....  and then they lose the plot over it. DO as you wish but I am not taking back a single word said to ROB. Not one.

Fine, that's your choice. But writing all that stuff while not being angry, isn't healthy. And you may feel good letting it all out, but it's not leading anywhere, except for more work for Neven. So, either let go and shrug off some more, or find a forum better suited to your needs.

I always figured people enter discussions to win them, and so one needs to think about how to 'win', ie convince others (if not the 'opponent', then at least those who follow the discussion). But maybe it's different for others.

On-topic: I've read that second article on the Bellingcat website yesterday. It may very well be true, but again, I have to trust that it is, impossible for me to check (unlike tree ring data or raw temperature data). As for style: Again, very insinuating way of writing, no alternatives are explored, very clearly intended written to convey a narrative (which hopefully leads to hundreds of billions extra Pentagon money, read weapon sales). And I'd very much like to know the source of their information. Open source, right?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:24:55 AM by Neven »
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oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4590 on: September 21, 2018, 11:40:31 AM »
Quote
I forgot whether he was the commenter inserting TSI BS into the melting season thread
Yes he was unfortunately.

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4591 on: September 21, 2018, 11:59:20 AM »
Gosh I can't win. Angry is unhealthy and not being angry unhealthy :) OK maybe you're right. But a quick PS fwiw .... Rob responds to you about your mdoeration of litesong publicly, when he should be doing it privately. So there's one Off-Topic for each of those posts. Then in his complaints he uses me again as come kind of evidence he's right because YOU allow a Russian Troll to post. So there's another instance x 2 of Off-Topic - as I wasn't the topic at all, but he repeatedly MAKES me the topic, but I have nothing to do with what litesong says nor how you moderate - more Ad Hom and Off-Topic coments by a windbag. Now he's the due with no respect for the forum not me.

Yes, and as far as I am concerned, it looks bad on Rob and thus weakens his arguments.

Quote
I am not going to play hall monitor and report half his posts (don;t read all of them) but when he throws mud like that he's being an immature clown imo, on top of his gullible pro-war mongering  rhetoric too. So from my perspective I see the lack of logical thought and lack of repect and smearing happening across the board, and now and then Rob when he goes right over the edge like that motivates me to throw everything back at in one go.  It's efficient imho. Saves my time and your time.

It makes you look like an immature clown as well, and you use too many words to do it.

And it doesn't save time, as it distracts from the main discussions. Never mind the fact that I get multiple moderator reports and PMs that I have to respond to, even though I vowed not to moderate the political threads. But it's my own fault for getting involved in the discussions.

Quote
Chicken n Egg Neven. It's not fair to only point out what others consider my "foibles" which is only their biased opinion - especially while they don't even understand what I said or what's behind it all.I am not going to respond to Rob every single time he talks rubbish. I'd have no time left for anything else. LOL

You have to understand that because on the whole I agree more with you than with others and thus consider you to be on 'my' 'side', I set a higher standard for you. Consider it a compliment.  ;)

Quote
But he can say what he likes and now and then I will say what I think about his irrationality, guilt trips, blaming and warmongering rhetoric. I do think what he does as dangerous talk, because it is - not going to lose any sleep over it nor get angry, there's no point in that. He may believe it's all justifiable but so did the Germans in 1933 and that's why that analogy is not only valid it's appropriate comparison today. I'm calling a spade a spade. It's worth considering how accurate it is in time and space historically. Fake news is everywhere, no less than here. Best.

You have a point, but it's brushing too close to Godwin and thus distracts again. It's true that bad people only succeed in pushing wars because they manage to incite enough good people, but maybe let this point rest.

Normally, I'd PM this to Lurk, but given the atmosphere, I'm putting it out in the open.

Back on topic now: Russia.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4592 on: September 21, 2018, 03:45:55 PM »
]
Never mind the fact that I get multiple moderator reports and PMs that I have to respond to, even though I vowed not to moderate the political threads. But it's my own fault for getting involved in the discussions.

Neven, please.  You own ASIF.  To moderate some sections but not others isn't responsible.  Everything posted is, to some degree, a reflection on you.  Since you can and do moderate some, you bear some personal and legal responsibility for allowing libel to be posted.

If you don't want to moderate the political threads, then close them.  They're creating strife, discord, and bringing down the reputation of this historically superb and essential forum.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4593 on: September 21, 2018, 04:26:03 PM »



Well, I advocated either more assertive moderation or closing down the political threads.
The above response seems to advocate more assertive moderation.
Prior posts have indicated the political discussions are ultimately unimportant, by my recollection.
It seems we're in broad agreement.

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4594 on: September 21, 2018, 05:03:21 PM »
I think it's pretty obvious why I don't want to moderate controversial threads, you can simply never do it right.

The reason I don't want to shut down the political threads, is because I'm interested in them, but I don't have time to go to other forums or scour the Internet. I spend so much time on this Forum that it's much more convenient for me to read about stuff here, especially if opinions are diametrically opposed.

As long as people are genuine and have some opinions to offer, I don't mind so much if they're uncivil or go overboard. It's the Internet, so we all need to have a thick skin. What I don't like, is when rants get repetitive/tedious and we just walk around in circles (which is why I tried to solve the Tesla situation). And what I certainly don't like is insults for the sake of insulting without any decent analysis or opinion (like litesong does). Everything else goes. And why not? We're adults. We can handle it. And again, if you want to 'win' a discussion or have people open up to your interpretation of the truth, you need to think about how you communicate.

It's good for everyone involved to think about themselves, why they choose to believe what they believe, what they actually stand for and why. This is a process that should never stop.

Last point, even though it's useless on the surface, I think it's good to have these discussions. Climate risk deniers are fighting a rearguard action, and so now we have to take the next hurdle. That's what these discussions are essentially about: Can we solve AGW and all the other problems, if we continue to slavishly follow establishment/mainstream narratives? I want to break through that vicious cycle.

As for my reputation: I don't care, I'm an idiot. I only feel responsible for getting the Arctic sea ice story right. That's my wedge. If anybody sues me, I'll worry about that then.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:25:48 PM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4595 on: September 21, 2018, 05:23:51 PM »
I've been thinking some more on the Skripal stuff as related to the Boshirov/Petrov stuff.

Possibilities:
1) Yes, they are GRU agents (highly incompetent ones, flying around with passports full of secret service stamps) and they poisoned the Skripals. Once you assume this, you have to deal with all manner of holes in the narrative, but never mind.
2) Yes, they are GRU agents, but they didn't poison the Skripals and maybe had nothing to do with it. That would seem unlikely, but maybe they were in Salisbury to retrieve the toxic stuff that poisoned all those people. And then something went wrong.
3) No, they are not GRU agents, but they did poison the Skripals. Maybe they're mobsters, and have strange passports because someone bribed corrupt officials to muddy their background. It's quite possible that Skripal was dealing with criminal organisations, that are now pulling enough strings in corrupt Russia for this to stay under the carpet.
4) No, they are not GRU agents and they didn't poison the Skripals. I don't find the tourism story convincing, but I saw someone suggest that they travel around to get people to sign important documents, for dark money etc. Still doesn't explain why they were in Salisbury at that time.

As bad as Russia is, I wouldn't be surprised if some entity is trying to frame Russia. This should be a non-story, but it's so incredibly hyped up by politicians (to distract from stuff like Brexit) and media (as an overseas reinforcement of Russiagate) and anyone else who profits from bad relations with Russia (like the Atlantic Council and Eliot Higgins).

And there's one thing that still hasn't been cleared up or investigated: Skripal's relationship with Pablo Miller and Steele (Orbis). This could actually be a great argument for those who believe in the power of Russiagate to explain why Russia all of a sudden decided to liquidate Skripal. But at the same time, the other conspiracy theory would be that Skripal may know stuff that embarrasses factions on the other side of the pond, and so he needed to be shut up (either by killing him or scaring the living daylights (pun intended) out of him) and then blame Russia, which is the easiest thing in the world.

Either way, it's all bullshit in the greater scheme of things, just a ploy for propaganda, games between intelligence agencies. But it's an interesting mystery, if only because of the hype. Just imagine the establishment narrative not being true...
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4596 on: September 21, 2018, 06:43:12 PM »

Last point, even though it's useless on the surface, I think it's good to have these discussions. Climate risk deniers are fighting a rearguard action, and so now we have to take the next hurdle. That's what these discussions are essentially about: Can we solve AGW and all the other problems, if we continue to slavishly follow establishment/mainstream narratives? I want to break through that vicious cycle.

As for my reputation: I don't care, I'm an idiot. I only feel responsible for getting the Arctic sea ice story right. That's my wedge. If anybody sues me, I'll worry about that then.

I can understand and respect this (and the rest of the post).  But there's a vital issue not included here.  The flame wars that erupt on the political threads harm the ASIF as a place to discuss information and ideas, and as a community.

I see the ASIF as a deeply important resource on the net.  We have a community that discusses highly sophisticated, deeply technical matters that relate directly to the future of the entire planet and of our species.  Neven, you've done a profound service to humanity by creating and tending to this garden of thought and discourse.  I believe you're now allowing it to be degraded and harmed by permitting posts that corrode the collegiality that's been painstakingly built by many dedicated individuals.  This is a needless tragedy.

If you can't/won't police these threads to demand collegiality in discussions, please outsource that function.  I'm sure there would be quite a few trusted individuals who would pick up the baton.

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4597 on: September 21, 2018, 08:01:11 PM »
I'm amazed at the amount of concern trolling by those that seek to modify and "improve" what Neven is providing.


Could I suggest that those concerned by a perceived lapse of collegiality here might be better off posting in a collegial manner rather than providing unsolicited advice to our host? Could practicing self moderation not prove as beneficial as calling for the moderation of others?


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Terry

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4598 on: September 21, 2018, 08:32:23 PM »
I'm amazed at the amount of concern trolling by those that seek to modify and "improve" what Neven is providing.


Could I suggest that those concerned by a perceived lapse of collegiality here might be better off posting in a collegial manner rather than providing unsolicited advice to our host? Could practicing self moderation not prove as beneficial as calling for the moderation of others?


Logs ... motes & all kinds of ocular related observations. ;)


Terry

Really?  Neven has fairly frequently requested input from the community about how better to run the Forum.  Perhaps you don't think that flame wars corrode the community of this Forum, but I'm not the first to make this observation.  I don't think it's "concern trolling" at all, nor is it impolite to our host.

Meanwhile, any substantive response to my suggestions?

oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4599 on: September 21, 2018, 08:51:46 PM »
Quote
I see the ASIF as a deeply important resource on the net.  We have a community that discusses highly sophisticated, deeply technical matters that relate directly to the future of the entire planet and of our species.  Neven, you've done a profound service to humanity by creating and tending to this garden of thought and discourse.  I believe you're now allowing it to be degraded and harmed by permitting posts that corrode the collegiality that's been painstakingly built by many dedicated individuals.  This is a needless tragedy.
Agreed. This has been bothering me for a long time. I honestly don't care about these discussions and can't tell who is right (probably no one when opinions are so polarized) but this is destroying the ASIF slowly but surely.