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Gumbercules

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4950 on: July 10, 2019, 02:52:22 AM »
<edit Neven: copied this comment to here.>
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:48:35 AM by Neven »

Pragma

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4951 on: July 10, 2019, 05:56:17 AM »
Is there a charismatic NDP anywhere on the horizon?


During the Wilson Raybould kerfuffle the three leaders had their little press conferences with all the faux sincerity and outrage. Frankly, side by side, they all looked pathetic in their own way, and not ready for prime time. A pox on all their houses!

We have a dearth of leadership at the provincial, federal and international level and it scares the crap out of me. They are all a bunch of clowns and the situation is reminiscent of what led up to WWI. I want leadership, but right now I'd be happy with people just acting like adults.

oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4952 on: July 13, 2019, 01:28:37 PM »
You think YOU have it bad? I am in Israel. Politics here are the most rotten thing ever, and voters insist on voting for the vilest options.

Pragma

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4953 on: July 13, 2019, 07:59:40 PM »
You think YOU have it bad? I am in Israel. Politics here are the most rotten thing ever, and voters insist on voting for the vilest options.

In a rather tragic way, you have made me feel better. A saying comes to mind:

"I used to complain about my shoes until I met a man with no feet"

I am not shy about my opinions, but I avoid that topic because I don't think there is any point. I do follow it, and all I can do is shake my head in disbelief, and sincerely wish you the best of luck.

oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4954 on: July 13, 2019, 10:09:51 PM »
Thanks. I do my best to avoid that topic too.
Parting on a bright note: we still have elections!

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4955 on: July 14, 2019, 01:03:31 AM »
oren
Sorry, but every thing I type expresses an emotion I don't feel, or an ideology I don't believe in.


Stay Well
Terry

Gumbercules

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4956 on: July 14, 2019, 03:19:41 AM »
Thanks. I do my best to avoid that topic too.
Parting on a bright note: we still have elections!

Not in the US. Trump won, and the left still doesn't accept the results of the election.

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4957 on: July 14, 2019, 11:15:07 AM »
Not in the US. Trump won, and the left still doesn't accept the results of the election.

The progressive side of 'the left' does, and they highlight the story behind Trump's election. Watch this, it's only two minutes:



It's the (neo)liberal side of 'the left' that doesn't accept the results, because they want to remain in the driving seat (so they can serve their donors, just like most of 'the right' is keen on doing), and the story behind Trump's election makes it harder to control their voters. And so they came up with Russiagate as a decoy, tapping into Cold War McCarthyite conditioning, to a) avoid talking about the real problems in the USA, b) to shut up the progressive side of 'the left' (Putin Puppets, all of them! The Bernie Bros are extreme and must be deplatformed from social media!), and c) to replace the phantom of terrorism with something that has always been more profitable for the MIC.
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Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4958 on: July 20, 2019, 03:25:18 AM »
https://www.lawfareblog.com/introducing-report-podcast-series-lawfare

>>
For the past several weeks, a group of us has been working on a project to tell the story of the Mueller Report in an accessible form. The Mueller Report tells a heck of a story, a bunch of incredible stories, actually. But it does so in a form that’s hard for a lot of people to take in. It’s very long. It’s legally dense in spots. It’s marred with redactions. It’s also, shall we say, not optimized for your reading pleasure.

Various folks have made efforts to make the document easier to consume: the report is now an audiobook; it’s been staged as a play; there have been live readings. We took a different approach: a serialized narrative podcast.

[...]
<<

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4959 on: July 21, 2019, 12:54:16 AM »
Nov 9, 2017: Timothy Snyder, author of e.g. "Black Earth - The Holocaust as History and Warning" and smith of wörds like "sadopopulism" speaks my mind - and rehashes much of the considerate observers' well-knowns:



The Jimmy Dore stuff (missing the Supreme Court question from Cenk...) and Neven's comment above I regard as element of Snyder's so-called "divide and fool" arsenal of the Global Fossil Fools Oligarchy. Jimmy seems less a fool and more a narcissistic divider, fooling wannabe progressives like Neven.

-------------
My nonvirtual alter ego Martin Gisser has left, as he didn't want to risk more waste of time and neurons here, incl. risking cancelling friendship with Neven. -- But internets neurosurgeon Mars JP Florifulgurator just can't help it. We, Flori and Martin, promise to not engage and debate too often here, except posting notable well-knowns when they occur to us. Facebook is a way more fertile field - if you use its algorithms wisely. We reluctantly started using FB in order to observe the Merrican election battle 2016. -- Alas, here you grant bandwidth to TrumPutin trolls like Lurk, RIP, or Jimmy Dore et al. If I (paranoid internet neurosurgeon Florifulgurator) were in St. Petersburg, then this forum would be considered a worthwhile target, due to the highbrow select audience and the owner's seeming eagerness to collude.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 04:00:50 AM by Florifulgurator »

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4960 on: August 15, 2019, 05:10:48 AM »
So perhaps I got some measurement of the "signal-to-noise ratio" of the "information highway".

If it says something (me dunno) even on a very logarithmic scale (the stochasticist might contemplate an iterated logarithm), then it explains a bit about the polit threads here: Mikhail Khodorkovsky's YouTube channel got 147 subscribers. Recently I was 148.
--> Whatever you think you think of Khodorkovsky...

At least this video has 3851 views:


« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:58:25 AM by Florifulgurator »

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4961 on: August 15, 2019, 05:49:30 AM »
Funny how I never watched/read much of Timothy Snyder while engaged in this thread (which I now consider postscripta and marginalia and links). His Holocaust book (black earth refers to chernozem soil) was sitting almost unopened on my shelf for years. https://www.google.com/search?q=ecological+panic Meanwhile he wrote some more...

Apropos reading: Rachel M read a Pentagon Russia, Russia, Russia white paper on the sofa some time ago. Presented another history lesson this night... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oligarchism

What would Jimmy D say?  ;D Belated proposal for a forum poll here: "Do you watch TRMS?" -  One of Jimmy's smears presented here (ca. Barr report) was soo blatant for everyone who watched the real (live context) thing.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:54:57 AM by Florifulgurator »

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4962 on: August 15, 2019, 02:18:14 PM »
4 posts in succession constitutes a Monologue, not a Dialogue.


Monologues tend toward Monotony unless interspersed with flashes of brilliance - or at least an original thought to break up the dreary recitation of 2nd hand propaganda.


The above Monologue had me gagging on the wretched regurgitation of last years memes being served up as if the expiration date hadn't been passed long before they were tossed back into the pot and presented as if they were food for thought. :)


Facebook - or even MySpace may be prepared to suck up these antediluvian offerings, but those unused to supping on over-ripened drivel will find the swill inedible.


Begone False Prophet!
Regurgitate your half digested filth in other, less discriminating venues. - where any foul thing that wiggles is crammed down the craw of unfledged hatchlings not yet capable of finding their own sustenance. Where hunger overwhelms their unsophisticated baby bird brains, and those that caw most stridently are assumed to be leaders imparting wisdom, not societal rejects with terrible manners that have come not to instruct, but to instill the fears that have crippled their own petty lives.


(The above is to be read in booming stentorian tones, preferably while costumed as "Foghorn Leghorn" as he hectors and lectures "Bogus Red", an aged nemesis who cruises the henhouse while impersonating a rather decrepit cross between a vulture and a very scruffy bald eagle) ;D


Have Funn you Blubbering Blustering Buffoon.
Your imprecations will find few adherents here.
Terry
(Intoned by "The Great Man", as played by WC Fields) ::)

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4963 on: August 20, 2019, 01:06:44 AM »
[...]
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/15/the-road-to-unfreedom-russia-europe-america-timothy-snyder-review-tim-adams

Quote
[...]Ilyin[...]Ilyin[...[...]]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sacrificium_intellectus&redirect=no

Here (46:44 - 50:09) Timothy Snyder rests the whole Trumputin (my term) puppetry on the shoulders of one  Ivan Ilyin (47:14 - 47:32: "God created the world and that was a mistake"). :) Succinct and hilarious summa summarum, hilariously told by the desperate professor:

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4964 on: August 20, 2019, 01:14:38 AM »
4 posts in succession constitutes a Monologue, not a Dialogue.[...]
You can always group them to 1. That's how the time-space-information discretuocontinuum sometimes ticks. Digging since 1967... :)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4965 on: August 20, 2019, 10:10:27 AM »
Not surprising, but a new study shows that Russia is the leading global offender of foreign disinfo influence operations around the world, accounting for a whopping 72% of total operations. Study by Princeton's @ESoConflict :

https://esoc.princeton.edu/files/trends-online-foreign-influence-efforts



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Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4966 on: August 20, 2019, 02:45:07 PM »
How much % is from US?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

MyACIsDying

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4967 on: August 20, 2019, 03:43:50 PM »
It's not propaganda if you're the winner or something. Hollywood, IMF's capcrack, domino theory, we've all been eating it.

kassy

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4968 on: August 20, 2019, 04:06:30 PM »
Hi Rob, i updated your avatar for you.  8)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4969 on: August 20, 2019, 04:35:58 PM »
Not surprising, but a new study shows that Russia is the leading global offender of foreign disinfo ...

It takes two to tango. The one disinforming and the one believing BS. Self-imposed immaturity is a thing!
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blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4970 on: August 20, 2019, 04:43:37 PM »
Ah, and since we are at it, seeing American institutions or media blaming Russia for disinformation while the own president is the bullshitter in chief, is just hilarious. There is nothing more ridiculous in the world.
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oren

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4971 on: August 20, 2019, 04:47:11 PM »
I can't believe this useless thread is undergoing a revival. Hope it dies back again.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4972 on: August 20, 2019, 05:36:33 PM »
Ah, and since we are at it, seeing American institutions or media blaming Russia for disinformation while the own president is the bullshitter in chief, is just hilarious. There is nothing more ridiculous in the world.

One is a state actor with nefarious intent.... the other is, well, something less than that.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4973 on: August 21, 2019, 10:22:15 AM »
OK, guys, I see that since I left, fact-based reasoning is still in short supply at the ASIF and ad-hominum is still the preferred way of communicating here.

Back to the facts :
This is a Princeton University study.
Not a tweet from the liar in chief.
Please know the difference.

How much % is from US?

The study did not find any Foreign Influence Effort (FIE) from the US.
Foreign Influence Effort needs to satisfy three criteria :

https://esoc.princeton.edu/files/trends-online-foreign-influence-efforts

Quote
FIEs are defined as: (i) coordinated campaigns by one state to impact one or more specific aspects of politics in another state, (ii) through media channels, including social media, by (iii) producing content designed to appear indigenous to the target state. To be included in the data an FIE must meet all three criteria.

So if you find any effort from the US that satisfies all three criteria, please let us know.
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MyACIsDying

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4974 on: August 21, 2019, 03:05:54 PM »
Andrew Wheeler will declare global warming an emergency when:
Quote
NY or Washington DC is permanently flooded, Trump's golden toilet seat is too hot to sit on and Wheeler's son school project proved that failing to turn of your engine at the bridge is causing it all.

With the common sense definition of foreign influence in mind you could check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change and consider why most of us are fine with this.
What I've seen happening in Russia is that mainly universities are being used to catch up with the tactics behind this 'success' story and of course, trying to become a major player for their slice of pie.

Pointing at Russia as the sole bad guy is a good example of such disinformation campaigns. It's all about increasing fascism, nationalism, the age old tactic of plotting people against each other to deflect from authoritarian abuses.

Also, Cambridge Analytics..

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4975 on: August 21, 2019, 04:33:35 PM »
OK, guys, I see that since I left, fact-based reasoning is still in short supply at the ASIF and ad-hominem is still the preferred way of communicating here.

Rob, i find your comment remarkable. I replied to your comment with reasons and actual arguments. Instead of replying to that, you just claim there is no reason giving no argument whatsoever.

Also, there is no single ad hominem there, still you are claiming there is. That's bizarre, to say the least.

Quote
Back to the facts :
This is a Princeton University study.

Are you saying Princeton University is not an American institution? Or are you saying Princeton University is to be trusted 100%? I don't follow.

Quote
Not a tweet from the liar in chief.
Please know the difference.

To whom are you relying here? Who said anything about tweets?

Refugees welcome

gandul

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4976 on: August 22, 2019, 01:01:59 AM »
OK, guys, I see that since I left, fact-based reasoning is still in short supply at the ASIF and ad-hominum is still the preferred way of communicating here.

Back to the facts :
This is a Princeton University study.
Not a tweet from the liar in chief.
Please know the difference.

How much % is from US?

The study did not find any Foreign Influence Effort (FIE) from the US.
Foreign Influence Effort needs to satisfy three criteria :

https://esoc.princeton.edu/files/trends-online-foreign-influence-efforts

Quote
FIEs are defined as: (i) coordinated campaigns by one state to impact one or more specific aspects of politics in another state, (ii) through media channels, including social media, by (iii) producing content designed to appear indigenous to the target state. To be included in the data an FIE must meet all three criteria.

So if you find any effort from the US that satisfies all three criteria, please let us know.
Yes, if those are the criteria I believe that disproportionate Russian leadership on foreign influence.
But the investment on straight publicity from US Government, US corporations, hidden publicity through Hollywood and other media... I don’t know, that’s huge too. Licit and legal yes (unethical and illegitimate often).
No me lo trago

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4977 on: August 22, 2019, 06:42:29 AM »
Are you saying Princeton University is not an American institution? Or are you saying Princeton University is to be trusted 100%? I don't follow.

You won't follow since you argue with hand-waving what-about-isms and excuses.

Why don't you read the study, and argue with the evidence presented in there.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4978 on: August 22, 2019, 08:20:15 AM »
OK, guys, I see that since I left, fact-based reasoning is still in short supply at the ASIF and ad-hominum is still the preferred way of communicating here.

Back to the facts :
This is a Princeton University study.
Not a tweet from the liar in chief.
Please know the difference.

How much % is from US?

The study did not find any Foreign Influence Effort (FIE) from the US.
Foreign Influence Effort needs to satisfy three criteria :

https://esoc.princeton.edu/files/trends-online-foreign-influence-efforts

Quote
FIEs are defined as: (i) coordinated campaigns by one state to impact one or more specific aspects of politics in another state, (ii) through media channels, including social media, by (iii) producing content designed to appear indigenous to the target state. To be included in the data an FIE must meet all three criteria.

So if you find any effort from the US that satisfies all three criteria, please let us know.
Yes, if those are the criteria I believe that disproportionate Russian leadership on foreign influence.
But the investment on straight publicity from US Government, US corporations, hidden publicity through Hollywood and other media... I don’t know, that’s huge too. Licit and legal yes (unethical and illegitimate often).

Hi gandul, nice to meet you. I don't think we've met before.

What you are stating is what's called "what-about-ism". You disregard what Russia did, and instead state what you believe is what the US did. "What-about-ism" is a logical fallacy for multiple reasons. For one, the things that the US did do not comply with the three criteria that the Princeton study defined :

Quote
FIEs are defined as: (i) coordinated campaigns by one state to impact one or more specific aspects of politics in another state, (ii) through media channels, including social media, by (iii) producing content designed to appear indigenous to the target state. To be included in the data an FIE must meet all three criteria.

And if they did, I'm sure you can be specific.

So, instead of using what-about-ism, can you please read the study and argue with the evidence presented ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

gandul

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4979 on: August 22, 2019, 03:26:00 PM »
Hi gandul, nice to meet you. I don't think we've met before.

What you are stating is what's called "what-about-ism". You disregard what Russia did, and instead state what you believe is what the US did. "What-about-ism" is a logical fallacy for multiple reasons...

So, instead of using what-about-ism, can you please read the study and argue with the evidence presented ?
Whatever, you could have saved your paternalistic tone.
The US propaganda has changed my country, as many countries, from the 80s onward. We have embraced it and now I feel it was unfortunate for my society, as for many others.

I am not arguing with you, please continue with your elegant rhetorics.
No me lo trago

Susan Anderson

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4980 on: August 22, 2019, 08:43:47 PM »
My friend Florifulgurator brought me back here, to find the same condemnatory blindness I got away from some while ago. Yes, the sins of the US and other western empire builders are manifold and disgusting, things like the second Iraq war, the replacement of Mossadegh by the Shah, the financing of Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviets, Vietnam, and our manifold sins in Central and South America (the informative video about Central America below is created by an American; I have some personal history in that conflict; Reagan was a monster*). Lumping us all together and blaming each of us for sins we've fought to overcome is unhelpful at best.

For example, why should I hold all current citizens of Austria to blame for Hitler? Should I assume that citizens of the countries mentioned here are all collaborators? Far-right, even racist views go mainstream in Central Europe https://www.apnews.com/3861bc14ddaf46528007919491e7820a
Quote
In many places, the shift to the right has included the rehabilitation of Nazi collaborators, often fighters or groups celebrated as anti-communists or defenders of national liberation. In Hungary and Poland, governments are also eroding the independence of courts and the media, prompting human rights groups to warn that democracy is threatened in parts of a region that threw off Moscow-backed dictatorships in 1989.

Some analysts say Russia is covertly helping extremist groups in order to destabilize Western liberal democracies. While that claim is difficult to prove with concrete evidence, it’s clear that the growth of radical groups has pushed moderate conservative European parties to the right to hold onto votes.

Assuming we support and are to blame for everything that is wrong in the world may be satisfying, since I, for example, can be directly condemned and blamed, but in the larger scheme you are wasting your misdirected energy. My time is better spent working with the majority here in the US to return humanity to my country, and overcome TrumpRepublican's efforts to make hate great again. To do that, we have to get rid of vote cheating, and Putin's Russian support of Trump, McConnell, and Republican nastiness is very much a part of that problem. (McConnell is receiving direct support from Russia in several forms in his local election.)

If you would all simply put Putin and Trump together, along with all Trump's other faves, such as Kim Jong Un, MBS, Al Sisi, Duterte, Erdogan, and other conservative strongmen that he envies because they can jail, torture, and kill their opponents, you would have a better idea of the fix we're in. Those of us who prefer Elizabeth Warren or another progressive, the Squad, Greta Thunberg, and others fighting for real Democracy and equality from all points of the compass, are not helped by these single-minded condemnations.

You can hold your nose all you like, but it sure as hell is not helping action on climate change to alienate everyone who does not subscribe to your wholesale blamefest. In work to make things better, 1%, or even 10%, is not going to be enough.

Blaming those who work towards a better situation because they're not part of the 1% who demand perfection, bothsidism, abdication, and supporting factions and splinters that have no chance of effecting change, makes you "perfect" in your own eyes and those of your buddies, but it also makes you vulnerable to manipulation, which, I think, it the point some of us have tried to make here, and failed.

Here's some good ammo for your "side" - we individuals who did not support this - ever - are not the bad guys here.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:49:44 PM by Susan Anderson »

wili

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4981 on: August 22, 2019, 09:22:42 PM »
Thanks, Susan. I hope you stay around for a while!

As for what-about-ism, it actually has specific associations with Soviet propaganda--it was a favorite ploy then, and still seems to be by those who have taken the helm their and their minions.

Quote
Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would often be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4982 on: August 22, 2019, 09:26:16 PM »
You won't follow since you argue with hand-waving what-about-isms and excuses.

Why don't you read the study, and argue with the evidence presented in there.


Rob, i didn't read the study because it's nothing new to me. I don't deny there was election interference. When a country claims foreign interference in the election process this is almost always true because it's a common thing. It's done all the time. Looking into history books will show you that. Again, what i'm saying is not that the disinformation didn't happen. What i'm saying is that the democracy in the US is so weak, that the campaign could succeed. This is not whataboutism, it's acknowledging cause and effect in an objective way. You know, i'm looking at all this from the outside perspective.

This whole Russia narrative is just scapegoating. It's a coping mechanism. Totally normal human behavior - but still despicable IMHO.

Just remember: Information coming to you is propaganda. Better seek for information yourself.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 09:33:10 PM by blumenkraft »
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4983 on: August 22, 2019, 09:52:43 PM »

This whole Russia narrative is just scapegoating. It's a coping mechanism. Totally normal human behavior - but still despicable IMHO.


For it to be 'just scapegoating' there would have to be nothing real behind it.  I would pretty strongly disagree with that assertion.

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4984 on: August 22, 2019, 10:09:44 PM »

For it to be 'just scapegoating' there would have to be nothing real behind it.  I would pretty strongly disagree with that assertion.

Feel free to do so, CB. Disagree with me, but please give me arguments.

For example, why is it remarkable this time and not the other times it happens.

Why is it bad when Russia does election interference in the US, but when the US does it in, say, Canada, Brazil, Israel, or Venezuela it's not?
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4985 on: August 22, 2019, 10:29:17 PM »

For it to be 'just scapegoating' there would have to be nothing real behind it.  I would pretty strongly disagree with that assertion.

Feel free to do so, CB. Disagree with me, but please give me arguments.

For example, why is it remarkable this time and not the other times it happens.

Why is it bad when Russia does election interference in the US, but when the US does it in, say, Canada, Brazil, Israel, or Venezuela it's not?

I don't so much care about the Russian interference, it's pretty much business as usual.  What makes it so much worse this time is the open complicity of the benefactor.  To me it's a stain on US democracy to have a candidate of a major party openly accept foreign influence.




Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4986 on: August 22, 2019, 11:47:15 PM »
Quote
but it also makes you vulnerable to manipulation

Russiagate has been manipulation from start to finish. The idea has been to blow Russian interference out of all proportion and to play on old Cold War conditioned sentiment (or russophobia, to be more precise), in order to conceal the real reasons for the election of Trump: the failed promise of neoliberalism, and thus the failure of American democracy.

And not just to conceal the real reasons for Trump as a symptom, so that the neoliberal gravy train keeps chugging along towards the precipice, but also to make sure no progressivism or social democracy or whatever gets in the way. Hence, 'Bernie Bros are Putin Puppets' and 'stupid niggers vote against their best interests because they are brainwashed by Moscow'.

Who is being manipulated here? Who is actually helping Trump? We know who, and all this thread shows, is that they just can't help themselves.

But thank God, we live in the Marvel Universe, where Captain Maddow and Supermueller will come and save us. Any day now. Or like Buddy used to say: Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...
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sedziobs

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4987 on: August 23, 2019, 12:08:54 AM »
'stupid niggers vote against their best interests because they are brainwashed by Moscow'
Can you explain what your point is here, or maybe evidence of anyone saying something like this?
 (I get that the quoted passage is not a representation of your thoughts)

Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4988 on: August 23, 2019, 12:11:11 AM »
Even if you take the propaganda that is Russiagate at face value, what you should be discussing, is how you make your democracy more immune against that kind of interference, by going back to paper ballots instead of using voting machines (which are an open invitation for abuse). By discussing the problem of social media and how to adjust it so that not only the Evil Empire, but also other countries, entities like Cambridge Analytica and domestic propaganda outfits, like for instance the Clinton machine, can abuse them. By radically changing your foreign policy, to foster trust and cooperation, instead of mercilessly pushing the fascist interests of American Empire.

But people like Rob, Susan and Martin aren't interested in these discussions. All they care about, is their favourite distractions: Trump, Russia and dumb deplorables. And that's exactly what people like Trump and Putin want them to do. Don't talk about the real issues, don't talk about how the system actually works, look at the squirrels. Because that's what highly intelligent people do: Look at squirrels.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 12:24:35 AM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4989 on: August 23, 2019, 12:21:19 AM »
'stupid niggers vote against their best interests because they are brainwashed by Moscow'
Can you explain what your point is here, or maybe evidence of anyone saying something like this?
 (I get that the quoted passage is not a representation of your thoughts)

I'm referring to this insanity. Russiagate isn't just used as smoke and mirrors to hide systemic defects and personal failure of Democrats in high positions, but also to kneecap any left-of-center movements that could successfully question and thus change the system.

The idea is that stupid black people are easily manipulated by Putin, and thus Russia must be fought like only the USA can. But don't ask why black people are so disillusioned that it is easy to manipulate them. Let alone ask whether maybe they didn't already think it, because they are smart enough to know when they are being effed by the system, and don't need any shove from Vladimir to come to logical conclusions.

No, don't ask these questions! Russia put those questions in your head! Russia is our greatest enemy! It was Al Qaeda for a while, but now it's Russia again! It has always been Russia! Grab your guns, for they are coming, they are under the bed! Someone revive Joseph McCarthy!
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sedziobs

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4990 on: August 23, 2019, 01:00:39 AM »
Neven, you are way off base here. The claim is not that Russians are influencing black Americans to vote for Bernie, or Trump, or anyone. The claim is that increasing race-based activism by American blacks generates a motivated pushback among the nativist right. From the NYT The article you cited:
Quote
The report does not seek to explain the heavy focus on African-Americans. But the Internet Research Agency’s tactics echo Soviet propaganda efforts from decades ago that often highlighted racism and racial conflict in the United States, as well as recent Russian influence operations in other countries that sought to stir ethnic strife.

Renee DiResta, one of the report’s authors and director of research at New Knowledge, said the Internet Research Agency “leveraged pre-existing, legitimate grievances wherever they could.” As the election effort geared up, the Black Lives Matter movement was at the center of national attention in the United States, so the Russian operation took advantage of it, she said — and added “Blue Lives Matter” material when a pro-police pushback emerged.

“Very real racial tensions and feelings of alienation exist in America, and have for decades,” Ms. DiResta said. “The I.R.A. didn’t create them. It exploits them.”


You should be careful with how you are implicating race to make your point, especially given your choice of words. Blacks voted overwhelmingly for Clinton in the primaries (by a 52 point margin). So your quoted phrase makes more sense if attributed to progressives, not the establishment.

I like that you attack the neoliberal establishment, but do not toss around phrases like "stupid niggers" to do so, especially when your argument has no basis in fact.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4991 on: August 23, 2019, 04:57:29 AM »
Quote
but it also makes you vulnerable to manipulation

Russiagate has been manipulation from start to finish. The idea has been to blow Russian interference out of all proportion and to play on old Cold War conditioned sentiment (or russophobia, to be more precise), in order to conceal the real reasons for the election of Trump: the failed promise of neoliberalism, and thus the failure of American democracy.

And not just to conceal the real reasons for Trump as a symptom, so that the neoliberal gravy train keeps chugging along towards the precipice, but also to make sure no progressivism or social democracy or whatever gets in the way. Hence, 'Bernie Bros are Putin Puppets' and 'stupid niggers vote against their best interests because they are brainwashed by Moscow'.

Who is being manipulated here? Who is actually helping Trump? We know who, and all this thread shows, is that they just can't help themselves.

But thank God, we live in the Marvel Universe, where Captain Maddow and Supermueller will come and save us. Any day now. Or like Buddy used to say: Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...

I've been trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about.  I give up.
 

budmantis

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4992 on: August 23, 2019, 07:51:48 AM »
I think Cognitive Bias has a point Neven. By the way, whatever happened to Buddy? tick tock, tick tock

MyACIsDying

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4993 on: August 23, 2019, 05:26:07 PM »
Thanks, Susan. I hope you stay around for a while!

As for what-about-ism, it actually has specific associations with Soviet propaganda--it was a favorite ploy then, and still seems to be by those who have taken the helm their and their minions.
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Also from that wiki:
Quote
Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.

When Rob says Russia contributes x% of misinformation (which is state sponsored misinformation), I need to point out his hypocrisy by putting it into perspective.

Compare it to when a new poster comes and posts a sunspot cycle graph telling us it's all we need to worry about, is providing perspective not necessary to argue them?

Psyops wars are raging. Any virtual concept increases in complexity as a function of time and processing capacity. I see the ones Neven points out.. have seen many, impossible to keep track.

Susan, I know better than to judge to individual for their nations crimes. Thanks for your practical refocus on what we should keep ourselves busy with in when it comes to politics. (hint: no money in politics!!)

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4994 on: August 23, 2019, 07:57:20 PM »

When Rob says Russia contributes x% of misinformation (which is state sponsored misinformation), I need to point out his hypocrisy by putting it into perspective.

Compare it to when a new poster comes and posts a sunspot cycle graph telling us it's all we need to worry about, is providing perspective not necessary to argue them?

Psyops wars are raging. Any virtual concept increases in complexity as a function of time and processing capacity. I see the ones Neven points out.. have seen many, impossible to keep track.


MyAcIsDying,
  Pointing out Rob's hypocrisy?  Hypocrisy is a fairly strong word.  It deserves a strong argument.  I, for one, do not see a strong argument of hypocrisy.

Maybe I'm obtuse.  Could you please clarify?

Thanks!



MyACIsDying

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4995 on: August 23, 2019, 08:17:18 PM »
hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
Quote
The study did not find any Foreign Influence Effort (FIE) from the US.
The study Rob refers to in itself being social media foreign influence material leads to double whammy hypocrisy. If you don't want to see that, enjoy your tv show I guess. Bread and games..

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4996 on: August 23, 2019, 08:37:50 PM »
Could you please clarify?

When one nation is killing and bombing in foreign countries and feels attacked when some Twitter trolls tweet. That's hypocrisy.

When the own president is lying with every single statement and the citizens just let him continue but see fake news from Russia destroying their democracy. That's hypocrisy.

There are a thousand more. You'll see them when you watch for them.
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4997 on: August 24, 2019, 01:06:11 AM »
hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
Quote
The study did not find any Foreign Influence Effort (FIE) from the US.
The study Rob refers to in itself being social media foreign influence material leads to double whammy hypocrisy. If you don't want to see that, enjoy your tv show I guess. Bread and games..

I still think its a stretch to accuse OP of hypocrisy because you find the study hypocritical.  But I get the point.

Could you please clarify?

When one nation is killing and bombing in foreign countries and feels attacked when some Twitter trolls tweet. That's hypocrisy.

When the own president is lying with every single statement and the citizens just let him continue but see fake news from Russia destroying their democracy. That's hypocrisy.

There are a thousand more. You'll see them when you watch for them.

We have an issue of cause and effect.  Ultimately to blame, absolutely, are the American consumers of garbage coming from the left and the right.  Russia hit the bonanza in destabilizing America by swinging a few hundred thousand votes.  ~125k votes in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania were the difference in the 2016 election.   Russian activities most likely created that swing and more.  There now sits an American president apparently beholden to Russia, and a Senate body that will block any action on fair elections.  This is an amazing payoff for Putin.   For this reason the 'tampering' comes into focus.  Not because it is unusual or shocking, but the payoff was tremendous.

Can American's rise to the occasion to winnow out fact from fiction.  My observations say absolutely not. 

And meanwhile in America, there is no equivalence between the left and right.  The danger comes from the right at this time. I think that is skewed for the international audience, because the pendulum is tilted in the opposite direction in much of Europe.


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4998 on: August 24, 2019, 07:42:13 AM »
'stupid niggers vote against their best interests because they are brainwashed by Moscow'
Can you explain what your point is here, or maybe evidence of anyone saying something like this?
 (I get that the quoted passage is not a representation of your thoughts)

I'm referring to this insanity. Russiagate isn't just used as smoke and mirrors to hide systemic defects and personal failure of Democrats in high positions, but also to kneecap any left-of-center movements that could successfully question and thus change the system.

Let's do some fact-checking on that statement.

The 'insanity' you are referring to is a NYT article :
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/17/us/politics/russia-2016-influence-campaign.html
which quotes two studies that conclude that Russian 2016 Influence Operation Targeted African-Americans on Social Media more than other ethnic groups.

One study is from the University of Oxford :
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/534-oxford-russia-internet-research-agency/c6588b4a7b940c551c38/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

Here are some of the statements from that report :

Quote
Russia's IRA activities were designed to polarize the US public and interfere in elections by:
o campaigning for African American voters to boycott elections or follow the wrong voting
procedures in 2016, and more recently for Mexican American and Hispanic voters to
distrust US institutions;
o encouraging extreme right-wing voters to be more confrontational; and
o spreading sensationalist, conspiratorial, and other forms of junk political news and
misinformation to voters across the political spectrum.

and

Quote
We can see from Table 4 that the African American segment was targeted with the most ads. White users were divided into liberal and conservative segments and targeted differently. A number of other ethnic segments, including Latin Americans and Muslim Americans, were targeted with smaller campaigns.

and

Quote
The top five posts by known IRA accounts are overtly political and polarizing, and details about the content and engagement by social media users is described in Appendix B. On Twitter, of the five most-retweeted IRA accounts, four focused on targeting African Americans.

This solidly confirms the NYT report that Russian 2016 Influence Operation Targeted African-Americans on Social Media more than other ethnic groups.

So now that the facts are clear, could you please clarify what you mean with 'insanity' regarding these studies, and please explain why you think these studies findings are just "smoke and mirrors", or that somehow these facts even "kneecap any left-of-center movements that could successfully question and thus change the system" ?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #4999 on: August 24, 2019, 09:22:46 AM »
I've been trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about.  I give up.

I don't think you've been trying, not really, because what I say, is pretty simple: Russian interference has been blown out of all proportion for all kinds of reasons, none of which serve the American people.

To quote journalist Aaron Maté in an interview I just watched:

Quote
What better gift to Trump, this person you're supposed to be resisting, than to channel this resistance into a stupid conspiracy theory instead of his actual policies for three years, and then hand him a further gift when he becomes vindicated, when it all collapses.

If Trump gets re-elected, one very big reason for it will be the conspiracy theory that was  Russiagate. And that was probably the whole idea. For the powers that be who want to see concentrated wealth grow, for the media that wants to see ratings grow, and for all those small people looking for an enemy to blame for everything that is wrong in the world (instead of just looking in the mirror).

Oh, and for Vladimir Putin as well. The peddling of Russiagate has made him stronger as well.
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