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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5000 on: August 24, 2019, 09:38:27 AM »
So now that the facts are clear, could you please clarify what you mean with 'insanity' regarding these studies, and please explain why you think these studies findings are just "smoke and mirrors", or that somehow these facts even "kneecap any left-of-center movements that could successfully question and thus change the system" ?

You are not presenting facts. You are presenting a narrative with some facts worked into it in a certain way (and some not). And the goal of the narrative is to sow fear and discord, so lots of money gets directed towards outfits like New Knowledge, and to the military-industrial complex, and to cover up the real reason for why Trump got elected and re-elected (four decades of neoliberal failure). Anything coming out of New Knowledge is propaganda, pure and simple.

The narrative in this case, although the MO is the same every time, is that 'the Russians' focus on black people because they are more easily influenced. This implies that they are more stupid and helpless, and thus need to be protected from those evil Russians. Because if not, their activism leads to more ethnic strife and thus the election of people like Trump.

Now, I'm a translator, and to me this reads as: Poor, stupid niggers need to get into the back of the bus and not rock the boat too much, because our eternal enemies will exploit this.

When enough people start to believe these (covertly racist) narratives, it can then be applied to any form of activism that rocks the boat too much. In coming years, movements like Extinction Rebellion will start to be tied to Russian disinformation campaigns (that are all-powerful, just like those WMDs in Iraq), and people like Rob Dekker will then faithfully and uncritically spread these 'facts' (which are actually narratives that selectively present facts, while leaving out context and quantification).

Because the system must never fundamentally be changed.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5001 on: August 24, 2019, 10:01:51 AM »
So now that the facts are clear, could you please clarify what you mean with 'insanity' regarding these studies, and please explain why you think these studies findings are just "smoke and mirrors", or that somehow these facts even "kneecap any left-of-center movements that could successfully question and thus change the system" ?

You are not presenting facts. You are presenting a narrative with some facts worked into it in a certain way (and some not). And the goal of the narrative is to sow fear and discord, so lots of money gets directed towards outfits like New Knowledge, and to the military-industrial complex, and to cover up the real reason for why Trump got elected and re-elected (four decades of neoliberal failure). Anything coming out of New Knowledge is propaganda, pure and simple.

Neven, you just completely ignored the study from Oxford University
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/534-oxford-russia-internet-research-agency/c6588b4a7b940c551c38/optimized/full.pdf#page=1
that was at the core of the NYT article
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/17/us/politics/russia-2016-influence-campaign.html
which showed that the Russian 2016 Influence Operation Targeted African-Americans on Social Media more than other ethnic groups.

And you mention the New Knowledge study, which the NYT also quotes.
That study is here :
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/533-read-report-internet-research-agency/7871ea6d5b7bedafbf19/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

This study also shows that the Russians targeted African-Americans more than any other ethnic group :
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 10:27:36 AM by Rob Dekker »
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blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5002 on: August 24, 2019, 10:03:55 AM »
We have an issue of cause and effect.  Ultimately to blame, absolutely, are the American consumers of garbage coming from the left and the right.

What you describe as the 'left' in this picture are the centrists though. There is no 'left' in the US. There is a brought political spectrum between the center and the far-left outside the US. Way more brought than the difference between centrists and far-right in the US. That's an important piece in the puzzle in this context.

Quote
Russia hit the bonanza in destabilizing America by swinging a few hundred thousand votes.  ~125k votes in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania were the difference in the 2016 election.   Russian activities most likely created that swing and more.  There now sits an American president apparently beholden to Russia, and a Senate body that will block any action on fair elections.

Yes, this is a systemic critique and it is correct. But this is all not news. Gerrymandering, election fraud, voter purges, electoral college, etc are undemocratic measures that existed before social media trolling was a thing. America is running on ancient software. This is where you should look for answers, not in Russian basements. When the undemocratic system is fixed, sock puppet armies will do way less harm.

Quote
This is an amazing payoff for Putin.

Of course. And when it is so easy to do, think about who else is manipulating and gaslighting the public all the time? Well, everyone who has an agenda and the resources - of which there are many. Which makes the US public a playing ball of all kind of malicious player.

Quote
Can American's rise to the occasion to winnow out fact from fiction.  My observations say absolutely not. 

A modern constitution with sane 21st-century laws would help...  ;)

Germany has a great and modern constitution. In part brought to us by Americans. I think we can share it back, there should be no copyright. :)
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Pmt111500

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5003 on: August 24, 2019, 10:08:22 AM »
Yes, no left in US politics, some in labour unions, couple of democrat senators maybe. Won't invest the time to search leftish politicians in state assemblys, but pretty sure there are some. Republicans on the other hand use leftish talking points in their campaigns and promptly discard them after a possible victory.

 Sanders or Ocasio Cortes would probably feel at home on some leftish party here, but be disappointed that many of their views are already accomplished.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5004 on: August 24, 2019, 10:11:43 AM »
Exactly!
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sedziobs

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5005 on: August 24, 2019, 07:06:26 PM »
The narrative in this case, although the MO is the same every time, is that 'the Russians' focus on black people because they are more easily influenced.
Where is this narrative? Is the media implying it, or are you inferring it? In your translation work, do you present an inferred interpretation as fact? Do you introduce crass terminology?

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5006 on: August 24, 2019, 10:47:54 PM »
Believing that it's deplorable for foreigners to attempt to control American elections, the DNC decides to hold fundraisers in - -  Wait for it - - Mexico City?


It's OK though, because they'll check every donors Green Card.


This certainly won't have any negative effect on domestic voting.


https://menrec.com/desperate-dnc-chair-set-to-hold-fundraisers-in-mexico/


Terry

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5007 on: August 24, 2019, 11:22:52 PM »
Terry,
  The Bloomberg article referenced refers to raising money from the American expat community.  Not surprisingly, the conservative fundraising rag you link fails to mention this point.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-20/dnc-chief-plans-to-raise-money-from-americans-in-mexico-city

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5008 on: August 24, 2019, 11:35:08 PM »
I've been trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about.  I give up.

I don't think you've been trying, not really, because what I say, is pretty simple: Russian interference has been blown out of all proportion for all kinds of reasons, none of which serve the American people.


I get it now.  It works a lot better when the words make sense.   ;D ;D ;D





TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5009 on: August 25, 2019, 12:00:35 AM »
Terry,
  The Bloomberg article referenced refers to raising money from the American expat community.  Not surprisingly, the conservative fundraising rag you link fails to mention this point.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-20/dnc-chief-plans-to-raise-money-from-americans-in-mexico-city
That's probably why the "Conservative Rag" wrote:
“The registration form on the DNC website require that attendees be U.S. citizens or permanent residents and enter passport or green card numbers.”
In other words, they’re going to have to prove they’re American citizens."

I understand that shooting from the hip is faster, but reading a link prior to commenting on it sometimes produces a more coherent response. 8)
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5010 on: August 25, 2019, 12:34:24 AM »
Ouch.  Mea Culpa.

There is was down there below the ads...  below the fold, so to speak.  Bloomberg meanwhile found room in the headline.  But I will remember to be more cautious next time.  Terry bites.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 12:41:18 AM by cognitivebias2 »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5011 on: August 25, 2019, 11:10:11 AM »
« Reply #5000 on: August 24, 2019, 03:38:27 AM »
and to cover up the real reason for why Trump got elected and re-elected (four decades of neoliberal failure).

Ah, Neven, is this some kind of Twilight Zone time warp? Are you writing from the future?  ;D
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Neven

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5012 on: August 25, 2019, 01:11:59 PM »
« Reply #5000 on: August 24, 2019, 03:38:27 AM »
and to cover up the real reason for why Trump got elected and re-elected (four decades of neoliberal failure).

Ah, Neven, is this some kind of Twilight Zone time warp? Are you writing from the future?  ;D

No, it all started with Reagan. That's almost four decades ago.

I get it now.  It works a lot better when the words make sense.   ;D ;D ;D

Great. And do you agree with it, ie that Russian interference has been blown out of all proportions for various reasons, none of which benefit the American people?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5013 on: August 25, 2019, 01:34:01 PM »
« Reply #5000 on: August 24, 2019, 03:38:27 AM »
and to cover up the real reason for why Trump got elected and re-elected (four decades of neoliberal failure).

Ah, Neven, is this some kind of Twilight Zone time warp? Are you writing from the future?  ;D

No, it all started with Reagan. That's almost four decades ago.

I get it now.  It works a lot better when the words make sense.   ;D ;D ;D

Great. And do you agree with it, ie that Russian interference has been blown out of all proportions for various reasons, none of which benefit the American people?

No, Neven. I mean how did you know that Trump will be re-elected in 2020?
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5014 on: August 25, 2019, 02:44:15 PM »

I get it now.  It works a lot better when the words make sense.   ;D ;D ;D

Great. And do you agree with it, ie that Russian interference has been blown out of all proportions for various reasons, none of which benefit the American people?



No, I do not agree.  But there is a lot to unpack, and my level of disagreement wasn't high enough to make it worth a response.  That said, I'll try to make a counterpoint now.

What's good for the American people is fixing health care, reducing inequality, supporting the marginalized, action on GW, addressing gun violence, etc.  We are so far from that right now.  We are in the middle of a slide to fascism.  So, what's good for the American people is anything that stops or slows that slide.

Russian interference is a focal point for resistance to Trump.  Anything that energizes the base and pulls in more borderline voters than it loses is good for the American people.  I think it is a winning topic for the anti Trump side.  Also I think there is enough there that it deserved some attention.  It has faded after Mueller's report was released, mostly because Mueller failed to wrap a pretty bow around his findings.

Is there so much else going wrong that at its core is more important?  Absolutely.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:30:13 PM by cognitivebias2 »

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5015 on: August 25, 2019, 03:00:59 PM »
Russian interference is a focal point for resistance to Trump.

Chose the one thing you don't have leverage over the 100 points you actually would. Good luck with that strategy.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5016 on: August 25, 2019, 03:14:06 PM »
Russian interference is a focal point for resistance to Trump.

Chose the one thing you don't have leverage over the 100 points you actually would. Good luck with that strategy.

If Trump is found to be improperly entangled in (compromised by) Russian interference, the leverage is to use that to get him out of office. 

Not that I did any choosing...  I was along for the ride, hoping for a good outcome.  Neither am I convinced there is any grand strategy at work.  These things evolve from complex interactions of disparate actors.

So, yeah, not sure that I know what you are suggesting.  Any great ideas for turning American politics around would be worth discussing.  I'm hoping for the pendulum to swing back in 2020, but hoping doesn't help me sleep well.

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5017 on: August 25, 2019, 04:08:47 PM »
Russian interference is a focal point for resistance to Trump.

Chose the one thing you don't have leverage over the 100 points you actually would. Good luck with that strategy.

If Trump is found to be improperly entangled in (compromised by) Russian interference, the leverage is to use that to get him out of office. 

Not that I did any choosing...  I was along for the ride, hoping for a good outcome.  Neither am I convinced there is any grand strategy at work.  These things evolve from complex interactions of disparate actors.

So, yeah, not sure that I know what you are suggesting.  Any great ideas for turning American politics around would be worth discussing.  I'm hoping for the pendulum to swing back in 2020, but hoping doesn't help me sleep well.

Well, i have news for you. The special prosecutor couldn't find any proof of collusion with Russia. He has a lot to say about other impeachable wrongdoings by Dumb though. There are actually plenty of them. Perhaps listen to that guy?
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5018 on: August 25, 2019, 04:32:18 PM »
Russian interference is a focal point for resistance to Trump.

Chose the one thing you don't have leverage over the 100 points you actually would. Good luck with that strategy.

If Trump is found to be improperly entangled in (compromised by) Russian interference, the leverage is to use that to get him out of office. 

Not that I did any choosing...  I was along for the ride, hoping for a good outcome.  Neither am I convinced there is any grand strategy at work.  These things evolve from complex interactions of disparate actors.

So, yeah, not sure that I know what you are suggesting.  Any great ideas for turning American politics around would be worth discussing.  I'm hoping for the pendulum to swing back in 2020, but hoping doesn't help me sleep well.

Well, i have news for you. The special prosecutor couldn't didn't find any proof of collusion with Russia, within the limitations placed upon him. He has a lot to say about other impeachable wrongdoings by Dumb though. There are actually plenty of them. Perhaps listen to that guy?
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kassy

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5019 on: August 25, 2019, 05:14:46 PM »
What's good for the American people is fixing health care, reducing inequality, supporting the marginalized, action on GW, addressing gun violence, etc. 

But none of the candidates ever runs on those issues so whatever Russia did is immaterial?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5020 on: August 25, 2019, 05:18:16 PM »
Woohoo, Kassy! \o/

Logic strikes back! Well done.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5021 on: August 25, 2019, 05:35:01 PM »
What's good for the American people is fixing health care, reducing inequality, supporting the marginalized, action on GW, addressing gun violence, etc. 

But none of the candidates ever runs on those issues so whatever Russia did is immaterial?

Sanders and Warren have most of it covered.  What Russia did was help Trump get elected.  I don't see how that could be immaterial.  Maybe what Russia did was help set up the coming backlash against the right.  If so, it will have been a painful 4 year lesson.

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5022 on: August 25, 2019, 05:40:48 PM »
I think Kassy was talking about 2016 presidential candidates.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5023 on: August 26, 2019, 03:56:53 PM »

Trump wants his 'little buddy' back in the club.  This is because expansionist policies always have some level of rationale.

Watch out Greenland, there is 'Manifest Destiny', or 'a land without a people' or something

"The U.S. president has said it would be “appropriate” to have Russia rejoin what used to be the G8, which Russia was excluded from in 2014 after it annexed Ukraine’s Crimea and then backed an anti-Kiev rebellion in the industrial region of Donbas in eastern Ukraine."


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g7-summit-tusk-russia/eus-tusk-sees-even-more-reasons-to-keep-russia-out-of-g7-idUSKCN1VE0K7

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5024 on: August 29, 2019, 02:52:25 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5025 on: August 29, 2019, 03:01:06 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?

As an outsider to both sides, I'd like to point out that Russia is an oligarchy that is not interested in social welfare anywhere in the world, but very interested in removing or rendering impotent all regulation regarding busines activites.

The GOP seems to be just their choice, the further out on the idiotic right limb the better.
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5026 on: August 29, 2019, 03:02:21 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?

1.  They have something on Trump.  He is their 'Manchurian'.
2.  Enhancing the general discord in America makes Russia stronger on the international scene.   
3.  A Nationalist America is weaker internationally than a globalist version
4.  Clinton was actually pretty tough on Russia as Sec of State.

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5027 on: August 29, 2019, 03:19:39 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?

I think there is a deep misunderstanding here. It's not "Russia". It's not Russian government, not Russian governmental structures. There hasn't been one proven link back to the Kremlin, read Mueller's report and search for it, there is none.

What is it then? It's individual Russian oligarchs having their political alt-right agendas. One example: The IRA in St Petersburg, i.e. the so called troll factory, is/was a private company operating in what is nowadays a very free, capitalist Russian market. Owned by an oligarch. Zero links to the Russian state. But yes, informal links on a personal level into the Kremlin.

These oligarchs are super-rich, super-conservative, with specific anti-liberal agendas.
Cooperating with like-minded oligarchs in other countries. And executors like Steve Bannon.


cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5028 on: August 29, 2019, 03:35:07 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?

I think there is a deep misunderstanding here. It's not "Russia". It's not Russian government, not Russian governmental structures. There hasn't been one proven link back to the Kremlin, read Mueller's report and search for it, there is none.

What is it then? It's individual Russian oligarchs having their political alt-right agendas. One example: The IRA in St Petersburg, i.e. the so called troll factory, is/was a private company operating in what is nowadays a very free, capitalist Russian market. Owned by an oligarch. Zero links to the Russian state. But yes, informal links on a personal level into the Kremlin.

These oligarchs are super-rich, super-conservative, with specific anti-liberal agendas.
Cooperating with like-minded oligarchs in other countries. And executors like Steve Bannon.

I don't think you should underestimate the level of connection between Putin and his Oligarchs. 

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5029 on: August 29, 2019, 03:57:20 PM »
Sure.
As well as similar links between e.g. GOP and the Koch oligarchs.
Corporate structures running agendas, manipulating the masses via various channels, MSM and social platforms.

What's the big deal? - except for the malady called 'russiophobia'

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5030 on: August 29, 2019, 04:30:57 PM »
I'm not sure russiophobia is even a thing, but it's no big deal to me either way.

Take your pick, I'm happy with any of these::

A) Trump compromised by Russian business interests
B) Trump compromised by Kremlin controlled Russian business interests
C) Trump compromised by Russia

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5031 on: August 29, 2019, 05:15:24 PM »
What I don't get about all this "Russia helped Trump win the election" stuff is why Russia would want Trump to win. Wouldn't Russia prefer Clinton (or any Dem), who would spend all that money on Social Welfare instead of Trump (or any GOP) who would spend it on making America militarily stronger?

No, the US is weaker because it lost its allies. What do you think is the reason Dumb pulled out of the Iran war? IMHO it's because none of the NATO members would engage in such a war with such an idiot as the commander in chief. I bet he realized that in the last minute.

Imagine Merkel would send German military to help the orange fart. She would be tarred and feathered i guarantee you that. A move like this would destroy her legacy entirely.

All this was a likely outcome because outside of the US, people realized before the election what a despicable racist nutjob that man is.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5032 on: August 29, 2019, 05:23:14 PM »
Owned by an oligarch. Zero links to the Russian state. But yes, informal links on a personal level into the Kremlin.

Those oligarchs are only in the position they are in because Putin allows them to! There are oligarchs who fled the country because they lost Putin's trust. And some of them got killed by Putin after they settled in other countries.

A feature of an oligarchy is that there is no difference between establishment and government (as seen in the US).
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5033 on: August 29, 2019, 06:56:27 PM »
If Trump had made a dumb tweet the day before the election and lost a narrow election, would the GOP accuse Hillary of winning from Russian meddling?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5034 on: August 29, 2019, 07:32:04 PM »
If Trump had made a dumb tweet the day before the election and lost a narrow election, would the GOP accuse Hillary of winning from Russian meddling?

No....  the evidence is clear they were helping Trump.  Russian meddling was already under investigation. In your scenario they did not swing the election, so it would have been quietly dealt with in the background. 

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5035 on: August 29, 2019, 07:46:38 PM »
If Trump had made a dumb tweet the day before the election and lost a narrow election, would the GOP accuse Hillary of winning from Russian meddling?

No....  the evidence is clear they were helping Trump.  Russian meddling was already under investigation. In your scenario they did not swing the election, so it would have been quietly dealt with in the background.

Do you think logic and reason would stop them from spinning that in their favor somehow?  ???

Reality proves wrong with this one i guess. ;)

Refugees welcome

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5036 on: August 29, 2019, 08:01:18 PM »
If Trump had made a dumb tweet the day before the election and lost a narrow election, would the GOP accuse Hillary of winning from Russian meddling?

No....  the evidence is clear they were helping Trump.  Russian meddling was already under investigation. In your scenario they did not swing the election, so it would have been quietly dealt with in the background.

Do you think logic and reason would stop them from spinning that in their favor somehow?  ???

Reality proves wrong with this one i guess. ;)

Perhaps you are correct, as crazy as it seems.

Altai

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5037 on: August 29, 2019, 09:24:46 PM »
It is really interesting for a person from Russia to read all that is written here. From my point of view, it is ridiculous that Russia could seriously influence the elections in the richest country in the world, the country with the most developed secret services, the country that itself has a habit to change regimes in other countries. Do we really have the necessary resources and power, especially after the oil prices became low? Russia today is not the USSR, it is much weaker. But most of the phobias come from the time of the USSR.

Mozi

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5038 on: August 29, 2019, 09:27:58 PM »
That's why Russia did it - Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies, and it's much cheaper to pay people to post on Twitter all day than to fight a real war.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5039 on: August 29, 2019, 09:32:59 PM »
It is really interesting for a person from Russia to read all that is written here. From my point of view, it is ridiculous that Russia could seriously influence the elections in the richest country in the world, the country with the most developed secret services, the country that itself has a habit to change regimes in other countries. Do we really have the necessary resources and power, especially after the oil prices became low? Russia today is not the USSR, it is much weaker. But most of the phobias come from the time of the USSR.

This type attack does not require significant resources on the scale of, for instance, a military takeover of Crimea.

Altai

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5040 on: August 29, 2019, 09:42:00 PM »
in my opinion, takeover of Crimea from a failed state in the state of chaos after the overthrow is much cheaper than to vote a "Russian" president. If I am wrong- then it means that USA is a politically weak country with helpless CIA and FBR.

blumenkraft

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5041 on: August 29, 2019, 09:44:37 PM »
Do we really have the necessary resources and power, especially after the oil prices became low?

Well, being rich doesn't prevent you from being stupid.

On the other hand, a sock puppet army is really not costly to maintain.

Remember, Putin is a KGB guy. He is in this game for a very long time. He is a professional manipulator.

That said, how many percentage points that really was at the end is by no means known. Still, it's a destructive narrative dividing the country furthermore.

Oh wait, did Russia do that too? ;)
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kassy

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5042 on: August 29, 2019, 09:51:28 PM »
That's why Russia did it - Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies, and it's much cheaper to pay people to post on Twitter all day than to fight a real war.

But if Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies would not Americans lie to Americans first and a lot more then Russians?

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Altai

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5043 on: August 29, 2019, 10:05:21 PM »
In fact, about 90% of Russians think now that it was USA that played the main role in destruction of the USSR. And it is well known that our present constitution in the 1990-s was written by American politicians. And American money helped Eltsyn to become president in 1996 for the second time (there was a scandal with a large sum of "American" money which were used for a massive media campaign of Eltsyn). And now American money by means of different grants and different "specialists of revolution-making"  support opposition  That's why it is really funny to hear those fairy-tales when there are many facts of the opposite influence.

Mozi

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5044 on: August 29, 2019, 10:06:56 PM »
But if Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies would not Americans lie to Americans first and a lot more then Russians?

I'm sure they do. But many middle-aged people aren't able to really distinguish truth from fantasy online, and a coordinated campaign really was effective at persuading many people at certain points of the campaign, and even more importantly at encouraging that distrust.

I honestly think that rather than blaming Russia we need to look inward at our own problems, but I do think it made a big difference.

And yes, America has done many similar if not worse things in the past, even in the recent past. I don't think that's a reason to ignore it when somebody else does it.

The truth is that this has been a long time coming - the rot in our civic understanding and our relations with each other goes very deep. I doubt that Russia expected such a large result.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5045 on: August 29, 2019, 10:27:43 PM »
That's why Russia did it - Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies, and it's much cheaper to pay people to post on Twitter all day than to fight a real war.

But if Americans are susceptible and want to believe the lies would not Americans lie to Americans first and a lot more then Russians?

I'm sure both major US parties and some well funded candidates are spinning up operations that mimic the 2016 Russian online campaigns.  Russia got there first... has to sting. 

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5046 on: August 29, 2019, 11:31:49 PM »
<snipped>
This type attack does not require significant resources on the scale of, for instance, a military takeover of Crimea.
The required expenditure of "significant resources" is probably why only one nation has seriously contemplated such a hare brained scheme since WWII. Even in the hubris filled halls of the Pentagon it was eventually realised that without the consent of the Crimeans the Coup in Kiev could not prevail.


The Crimeans refused to be ruled by the usurpers to power in Kiev, and by referendum asserted their independence. In a 2nd referendum they asked for admittance into the Russian Federation. Their plea was heard.
 The numbers were too overwhelming for anyone to challenge the outcome.
 Russia agreed to allow both Crimea and Sevastopol into the Federation, others were not as fortunate.


Attempts to "isolate Russia" and to "destroy her economy" have failed rather spectacularly. Russia's Gold reserves have been building faster than any other nations - even surpassing the Chinese. Russia is now the world's largest wheat exporter & even Washington wants Russia back in the G7(8?)


Why "Cookie" Nudelman thought that arming Nazi's would be applauded by those whose grandparents halted the War Machine might be explained by her long immersion in her husband's Neoliberal fantasies, but this provides no cover for the Democratic Presidency for whom she toiled.


Did Putin want the leader of the "Free World" in the hands of someone who giddily approved of such antics? - Assuredly not.
Did Putin have more "dirt" on Trump who had visited Moscow, or on the Clinton who had slept in his house? - Wow, that's a hard one. ::)


Russia, Russia, Russia = Divert, Divert, Divert


The 2020 election approaches ever faster, yet some sit back contentedly waiting for the clock to slowly run down on Trump's presidency. Tick - Tock, Tick - Tock
They'll keep replaying the Russia, Russia, Russia hand and wonder yet again how they were beaten by such an obvious buffoon.
It's one thing to lose to a "Worthy Adversary", it's quite another to lose to a "Deplorable Clown".


Hillary and the DNC lost to the least popular candidate ever elected. If the DNC runs the same race, they'll be defeated for the same reason. Deplorable voters despise Hypocrites.
Terry


cognitivebias2

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5047 on: August 29, 2019, 11:46:22 PM »
<snipped>
This type attack does not require significant resources on the scale of, for instance, a military takeover of Crimea.
... even Washington wants Russia back in the G7(8?)
/quote]

Says who exactly?

...
They'll keep replaying the Russia, Russia, Russia hand and wonder yet again how they were beaten by such an obvious buffoon.


When the general election rolls around Russia will play just one small part in the montage of buffoonery.

TerryM

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5048 on: August 30, 2019, 03:01:17 AM »
The POTUS, most recently thought Putin should return to the table.
--------------
The fainter the cries of Russia, Russia, Russia - the greater our chance of victory.


Screams of 'Russia, Russia, Russia' came close to drowning out anyone who called for an examination of Trump's policies - and his implementation of those policies.


Imaging how much further ahead Democrats would be if the "Blue Wave" had built & peaked during the mid-terms.
Terry

Florifulgurator

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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« Reply #5049 on: August 31, 2019, 09:48:17 PM »
But people like Rob, Susan and Martin aren't interested in these discussions.
Nonsense. Classical divide-and-conquer propaganda logic.

This thread is about the Russian interference. You need to be very dumb to think (or accuse others to think) that Trump is all to blame on Russia. That Trump is not also a very American phenomenon. "Putting all eggs in one basket" - bullshit!  E.g. there's Stephen Bannon, the bizarre billionaires (Mercer, Koch, ...).  I see it as the endgame of the fossil fools.  It is a global game of the global fossil oligarchy.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 09:53:40 PM by Florifulgurator »