Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Boring Company  (Read 40800 times)

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #350 on: May 26, 2019, 03:41:51 PM »
Quote
There are some big advantages to reusable rockets, but there are some big downsides too. For the ups to outweigh the downs, the rocket has to be able to be reused many times. SpaceX thinks this number is 10.
Incorrect.  The Block 5 Falcon 9 being made now is built to be reusable about 10 times with minimal refurbishment — the goal for 2019 is to show a turnaround time of 24 hours — and about 100 times in all.

You seem to really struggle with the difference between hoping something will work, and something that has already worked. They are up to 3 so far. Simple fact. Not 10, not 100, 3.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #351 on: May 26, 2019, 03:43:10 PM »
If Musk can take Boring to where Space launches and electric mobility are today, the boring industry is in for a revolution

What exactly do you think that would look like?
big time oops

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1117
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 137
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #352 on: May 27, 2019, 07:22:28 PM »
Maybe like this...

Elon Musk Says ‘Hyperloop’ Tunnel Is Now Just a Normal Car Tunnel Because ‘This Is Simple and Just Works’

Quote
Back in 2017, Elon Musk had grand visions for the test track built by The Boring Company, his tunneling firm, in Los Angeles. The Boring Company’s tunneling work was closely linked to Musk’s Hyperloop idea, which would require hundreds of miles of tunneling to be viable, although the actual test track in California bore none of the traits of an air vacuum-based transportation system. It would have proprietary vehicles with varying capacities for private travel, public transport, or freight. They would travel along electrified skates for frictionless movement. It would be fast and efficient, but more importantly, it would be different, because he’s a genius.

Six months ago, the first demonstration of that track didn’t quite match that vision: it was a Tesla Model X on a sled going down a very bumpy tunnel at roughly 50 mph.

Quote
The video’s marketing conceit is that the car in the tunnel beats a car trying to go the same distance on roads. You’ll never believe this, but the car that has a dedicated right of way wins. Congratulations to The Boring Company for proving dedicated rights of way are important for speedy transportation, something transportation planners figured out roughly two centuries ago. I’m afraid for how many tunnels they’ll have to dig before they likewise acknowledge the validity of induced demand.

Quote
To recap: Musk’s company spent two years developing a very narrow car tunnel. To anyone who ever believed Elon Musk’s bullshit: you’ve been had.

https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-says-hyperloop-tunnel-is-now-just-a-normal-1835024474

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #353 on: May 27, 2019, 08:28:17 PM »
Maybe like this...

Elon Musk Says ‘Hyperloop’ Tunnel Is Now Just a Normal Car Tunnel Because ‘This Is Simple and Just Works’
...

The article says in essence, “You promised us high tech!  This is just a paved tunnel!  With a Normal Car!”

First, the Model X with Autopilot is not a “normal car.”  Let’s see them drive manually at 127 mph down a narrow, turning track and see how they do.

Without sleds, Jalopnik’s ICE cars wouldn’t be allowed to drive in the tunnels at all, so there’s that.

This is Now.  No reason sleds can’t happen later.  Seems like the Las Vegas project will need ‘people pods’ of some sort, which will be a new development.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:45:03 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Archimid

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2300
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 266
  • Likes Given: 182
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #354 on: May 27, 2019, 08:33:02 PM »
Quote
Congratulations to The Boring Company for proving dedicated rights of way are important for speedy transportation, something transportation planners figured out roughly two centuries ago.

Right. The only contribution is extending dedicated rights of way lanes into the third dimension. Not revolutionary at all /s
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #355 on: May 27, 2019, 09:56:54 PM »
“The Strait Times also reported that at least 40 train services in eastern Hokkaido were canceled over concerns that the extreme heat may distort the tracks.”
 :o 
Not a problem in Boring tunnels.... 8)

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/record-heat-turns-deadly-in-japan-on-sunday-relief-to-arrive-on-tuesday/70008369
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #356 on: May 29, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
Quote
Congratulations to The Boring Company for proving dedicated rights of way are important for speedy transportation, something transportation planners figured out roughly two centuries ago.

Right. The only contribution is extending dedicated rights of way lanes into the third dimension. Not revolutionary at all /s

You should look into buying the ground space between NYC and Beijing in a straight line, 14 feet wide. The shortest distance is a straight line, and one day this will be highly profitable ground space. Ignore the fact that digging holes is extremely capital intensive, because these costs will come down 10X in the next year, and 10X in the year after that, and then basically it will be free. Cuz iterations.
big time oops

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1117
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 137
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #357 on: May 30, 2019, 12:00:59 AM »
Its Moore's law right, or is that just for computers?

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #358 on: June 04, 2019, 03:06:23 AM »
Math. (Because your Loop car stops only at your destination.)

Quote
< ... but really, how is putting a car through a tunnel more efficient than a train?  One car doing 60 mph is faster than a train carrying a thousand people doing 30 mph?
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 6/3/19, 8:41 PM
Avg speed of NY Subway is actually 17mph. TBC loop can run at 155mph with 16 pax autopods passing every second, routing automatically between tunnels to their destination. That’s 57,600/hour/lane & you can build dozens of lanes. Will crush any subway in throughput & convenience.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1135708083643191296
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #359 on: June 06, 2019, 07:34:45 AM »
https://www.inverse.com/article/56397-boring-company-subway-comparison

Elon Musk: Boring Co Loop "Will Crush" Subways in Throughput, Convenience

Musk may want to reconsider his tunnels being associating with "crush"ing. But hey, what can you expect from a bunch of total amateurs trying to drastically improve on a refined industrial process.
big time oops

oren

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4413
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 847
  • Likes Given: 1267
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #360 on: June 06, 2019, 08:12:01 AM »
Quote
TBC loop can run at 155mph with 16 pax autopods passing every second, routing automatically between tunnels to their destination,” Musk’s response reads. “That’s 57,600/hour/lane & you can build dozens of lanes.
I can think of so many negative aspects for this type of setup (risk of accidents, ride inconvenience, need for very costly development of control technology, and much more), so I am extremely skeptical of these numbers. The proof will be in the pudding - the LVCC transit system - but no way it will reach such throughput or even 1/10 of that.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #361 on: June 06, 2019, 08:46:38 AM »
risk of accidents, ride inconvenience, need for very costly development of control technology, and much more

Funny Oren, these are exactly the point that convinced me of the concept.

You couldn't do it with humans driving. That's for sure.

In which scenario could it actually be possible? It would require a closed, somewhat deterministic system with fast and updatable computers, accurate sensors, and interconnectivity.

Well, that's exactly what this is, isn't it?

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #362 on: June 06, 2019, 03:11:54 PM »
Human control of trains is far from perfect;  stupid human interactions with speeding surface trains are too numerous to count.  And the US has been ridiculously slow in installing Positive Train Control, which could at least help.  Time to stop putting bandaids on an antiquated system.  Instead, mass transport must evolve.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 04:49:41 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #363 on: June 06, 2019, 03:31:16 PM »
risk of accidents, ride inconvenience, need for very costly development of control technology, and much more

Funny Oren, these are exactly the point that convinced me of the concept.

You couldn't do it with humans driving. That's for sure.

In which scenario could it actually be possible? It would require a closed, somewhat deterministic system with fast and updatable computers, accurate sensors, and interconnectivity.

Well, that's exactly what this is, isn't it?

No, it isn't. The sensors aren't accurate and there isn't interconnectivity.
big time oops

Bob Wallace

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #364 on: June 13, 2019, 06:06:51 AM »
Have some people here not ever been involved in doing something for the first time?  Something somewhat complex.  Generally one starts with some assumptions and refines their ideas as things are tried and better ideas developed.  We didn't get to the Moon by simply building a rocket and going there.  We worked our way there through numerous steps, developing the hardware needed over time.

A few years back Musk proposed the hyperloop, traveling through an almost vacuum in a tube at speeds faster than passenger jets.  He envisioned using an air compressor on the front of the passenger/freight pod to compress what air was in the tube and then blow it out through jets to position the pod equal distance from the tube walls.

There are a few problems with an above ground metal tube.  Acquiring right of way can be difficult and expensive, lots of NIMBY sorts of issues.  A metal tube exposed to sunlight is going to expand and then shrink as it cools.  Which means a bunch of tricky expansion joints.  And JoeBilly could easily shoot some holes in it 'just for fun', or more sinister people could blow up a section.

A solution to those three problems might be to go underground.  In order to make a tunnel water tight it has to be more than capable of maintaining a partial vacuum.  Tunnels are out of sight, out of mind.  And it's not hard to detect someone or something digging its way toward the tunnel long before damage could be inflicted.

But there's the cost of tunneling.  Musk and his crew of merry thinkers went to work and decided that by simply making the tunnels small they became much cheaper per mile.  Then they worked through a number of thing that they could do to drastically lower the cost of tunneling.  Things like almost constantly drilling rather than, on average, ten minutes out of each hour.  Improving the cooling system for the cutter so that it could run at higher speeds.  Finding a way to dispose of the wastes at no cost or even a bit of a profit.

Then bootstrapping.  Building a hyperloop from LA to NYC would require a lot more than pocket change.  The best route is probably building some somewhat short but very fast subway systems in which all rides are 'express', no stops between getting on and arriving at destination.  Build some systems, sell rides, make profits, use profits to build a modest length hyperloop.

The cheapest initial vehicle would be to take an existing battery powered car that could safely travel at 150+ MPH in the tunnel and simply use it.  Later a higher capacity passenger could be built but not until the first system is up, running, and making money.  In fact, it would be very possible to take the Tesla S/X skateboard and bolt a eight or twelve passenger pod on in place of the sedan/SUV body.

Boring has demonstrated that they can drill a tunnel rapidly and at a very attractive cost.  And that is using only a modified used tunneling machine.  Boring has the next two generations of their custom designed tunneling machines in production. 

Boring has demonstrated that they can use an 'off the shelf' Tesla and safely drive their short test tunnel at speeds in excess of 125 MPH.  The first used 'guiding wheels' to keep the car centered in the tunnel but later showed that Tesla's lane keeping software could accurately steer the car.  Yes, the ride was a bit bumpy but, remember, right up front Musk explained that the tunnel driving surface had not been installed.

Boring has demonstrated a prefab elevator that can be quickly installed and moves vehicles from street level to tunnel level rapidly.

Communication between vehicles and between vehicles and 'central command'?  How hard can that be.  Send out position and speed data a few times per second.  If a problem develops issue an "All Stop" to all vehicles behind the vehicle with a problem.  Sensors along the tunnel can serve to backup and verify data from individual cars.

Why would we want this to work?  Imagine leaving your house in a robotaxi, riding a short distance to a Loop spur, changing vehicles, and then going to the airport 20 miles away non-stop at over 150 MPH.  For small money.  Using renewable energy.

Think about not spending a half hour or more each day commuting in bumper to bumper traffic but zipping to work and then back home, giving you an extra hour each day to do something other than commute.

Will it work?  Maybe.  Looks good so far other than finding places to build the first few projects that will be needed for proof of concept.  (Or more proof of concept.)  Boring can bore economically, run cars at high speeds, and move them from surface street to tunnel quickly.  Now the remaining question becomes how inexpensive can they make it.

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #365 on: June 13, 2019, 07:50:23 AM »
Have some people here not ever been involved in doing something for the first time?  Something somewhat complex.  Generally one starts with some assumptions and refines their ideas as things are tried and better ideas developed.

This is literally how the world works.

Though logic and reason will not convince everyone i'm afraid.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #366 on: August 03, 2019, 10:36:03 PM »
Wow.

Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 8/2/19, 11:20 PM
Tesla CEO @elonmusk will attend (WAIC) World Artificial Intelligence Conference of 2019 in Shanghai China at August, 29~31th
$TSLA #Tesla
 https://t.cj.sina.com.cn/articles/view/1891330474/70bb69aa00100gav1 [Chinese]

Quote
E (@elonmusk) 8/3/19, 2:40 AM
Will also be launching The Boring Company China on this trip
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1157541685980610560

< Will the Boring Company also do underwater tunnels?
EM:  Yes
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 352
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #367 on: August 04, 2019, 01:49:18 AM »
I apologize for removing a post (1st time ever), as I noted that I was responding to a VERY old posting.


Sorry if it caused an inconvenience. :-[
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #368 on: October 01, 2019, 09:14:59 PM »
Quote
Vital Vegas (@VitalVegas) 9/18/19, 2:35 PM
Elon Musk's tunnel project at the Las Vegas Convention Center just went from WTF to OMFG.
https://twitter.com/vitalvegas/status/1174391620197765120
Photos (of construction equiipment on site) at the link.


The Boring Company’s Las Vegas Loop tunnel project is coming to life
Quote
The Boring Company’s upcoming Loop project at the Las Vegas Convention Center appears to be coming to life, with the first images of the startup’s dig site emerging online. Images that have emerged of the startup’s activities reveal that The Boring Company has started shipping parts of a tunnel boring machine to Las Vegas, with a TBM cutter head and mixing chamber recently arriving at the location.

Initial pictures of The Boring Company’s activities were shared on Twitter last week, courtesy of @JamesInLasVegas. The photos depicted heavy machinery surrounding the tunneling startup’s dig site, including several cranes and what appeared to be a pile driver. An image of a tunnel boring machine’s cutter head was also posted.

A source familiar with the Boring Company’s current activities for the Las Vegas Convention Center Loop project recently informed Teslarati that the startup’s activities have started ramping over the past few weeks. The source, who has asked to remain anonymous, added that The Boring Company has been granted a pit permit, and thus, the startup has started the construction of a secant wall for the Loop system’s passenger station located on the east end of the LVCC’s South Hall.
...
Images of what appeared to be a new TBM being assembled at the tunneling startup’s lot in the vicinity of the SpaceX headquarters in Hawthorne have been captured a few months ago. With this in mind, there seems to be a good chance that The Boring Company’s Las Vegas project could utilize one of the startup’s newer machines. Perhaps The Boring Company will play it safe and deploy Godot, which has already been tried and tested at Hawthorne, or perhaps the startup could utilize Line-Storm or Prufrock to complete the project faster.
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-las-vegas-loop-tunnel-update-pictures/

Below: The Boring Company's TBM cutter head and mixing chamber arrive at the Las Vegas dig site.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #369 on: October 01, 2019, 09:26:33 PM »
Couple more photos.

Quote
ONΞ POSITIVΞ DUDΞ 8) (@OnePositiveDude) 9/25/19, 12:15 AM
I saw these too.
https://twitter.com/onepositivedude/status/1176711688822939649
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2495
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 85
  • Likes Given: 46
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #370 on: October 09, 2019, 03:44:08 PM »
Re query about being electric: Maybe these are just puff pieces but suggestion seems to be Linestorm, soon to be deployed, is a hybrid of some sort.

Quote
Despite its custom hardware and speed, it should be noted that Line-Storm is not the end-all and be-all of The Boring Company’s tunnel boring machines. Beyond Line-Storm, the tunneling startup is also working on Prufrock, a TBM designed from the ground up by The Boring Company. Being fully electric, Prufrock is expected to be capable of digging 10-15x faster than current TBMs, with zero emissions and with very little noise.
https://www.teslarati.com/boring-company-line-storm-tunneling-machine-active/

Quote
Elon Musk has since announced that the startup is working on two new machines, a hybrid TBM named Line-Storm, which is capable of digging around twice as fast as Godot, and Prufrock, an all-electric TBM that can dig around 10-15 times faster than a conventional tunneling machine, with very little noise and zero emissions.
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-las-vegas-loop-tunnel-update-pictures/

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 352
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #371 on: October 09, 2019, 09:54:44 PM »
Chris
Hybrid TBM's, are also known as Crossover TBM's. This indicates that they can be used to tunnel in 'varying ground types". Hybrid in this usage has nothing to do with the power source.


Crossover TBMs are machine designs that feature advantages from two different types of TBMs, and can “cross over” between widely varying ground types that would normally require multiple machines. They are also known as hybrid or dual mode machines in the tunneling industry. For more on the various Crossover TBMs, please click on the links below to learn more about each machine type.
https://www.therobbinscompany.com/products/tunnel-boring-machines/crossover-machines/
[/size]
[/size]Terry

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #372 on: October 10, 2019, 01:54:13 PM »
That Robbins Company site is interesting.  They do mention “variable frequency electric motors,” but I can find no other details except “multi-speed gearboxes.”

They do not tout a lack of need for power cables, so they probably do not use batteries to power their TBM.  The use of a gearbox brings to mind the fact that the predecessor to the original Tesla Roadster had a two-speed transmission (as does the Porsche Taycan), but Tesla eliminated it for their cars.  Teslas electric motor expertise would be of benefit here.

From the 2018 Recode interview with Elon Musk:
Quote
In talking to the engineering heads of the various tunneling companies, he found that they had no idea if their machines were power-limited or thermal-limited.  “Things like increasing power is relatively easy, and then you hit the threshold where youʼve added so much power that youʼre melting the drill head.”  So he took “rocket technology and automotive technology and applying it to drilling.”  And made it electric, which eliminates deadly fumes in the tunnel, and used batteries, which eliminates the need for a huge, very long power cable.  “We need to massively crank up the power to the drill head, and then ... we need to cool it.”  And automate the placement of the tunnel reinforcements, so digging doesn’t have to stop while that is done.

The Robbins equipment has several pre- and post-digging features, but I don’t see that it installs cement tunnel reinforcement rings as it digs.  (Tesla TBC makes their rings out of the bored tunnel rock plus a little cement, meaning less has to be transported or disposed of.)

Robbins is proud of their conveyor systems.  They note that with a continuous conveyor, “Trains can be fewer and smaller” and “Ventilation requirements reduced,” suggesting diesel locomotives are the most common option.  Extending a muckout line with a few rails for a battery-powered locomotive would require much less effort and equipment than extending a conveyor behind the TBM for miles as it digs.  Also, using rails leaves the tunnel open to comfortably transport personnel and supplies in, as well as the carloads of muck out.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:29:15 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4413
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 847
  • Likes Given: 1267
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #373 on: October 11, 2019, 04:12:15 PM »
Quote
Tesla makes their rings out of the bored tunnel rock plus a little cement, meaning less has to be transported or disposed of.
Not Tesla, TBC.
And a lot of TBC "features" are engineering goals, not actual capabilities. Ideas, good ideas probably, design from first principles, but more brochure than product.
Such confusion between roadmap and vision and between actual timeline and product is what gets Musk into the "liar" blame later. Were he to clarify his initial visionary statements, some trouble would be avoided.
The proof, as always, is in the pudding.

Sigmetnow

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 15398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 403
  • Likes Given: 206
Re: The Boring Company
« Reply #374 on: October 11, 2019, 09:35:37 PM »
Quote
Tesla makes their rings out of the bored tunnel rock plus a little cement, meaning less has to be transported or disposed of.
Not Tesla, TBC.
And a lot of TBC "features" are engineering goals, not actual capabilities. Ideas, good ideas probably, design from first principles, but more brochure than product.
Such confusion between roadmap and vision and between actual timeline and product is what gets Musk into the "liar" blame later. Were he to clarify his initial visionary statements, some trouble would be avoided.
The proof, as always, is in the pudding.

Fixed, thanks.

The proof may be in the watchtower.  ;)
The Boring Company cleverly lays bricks on Elon Musk's 'Monty Python' watchtower
https://www.teslarati.com/the-boring-company-lays-bricks-elon-musk-monty-python-watchtower-pictures/

Elon Musk's Boring Company unveils bricks being produced from dirt dug in its tunnels
https://electrek.co/2018/07/13/elon-musk-boring-company-bricks-dirt-tunnels/

Elon Musk's Boring Co. to build concrete batch plant for tunnel
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-boring-company-concrete-rings-tunnels/

The Las Vegas tunnel project should give us a better look at their progress so far.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.