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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2017, 07:56:04 AM »
One final note on Open Source Journalism :
Some sites are making claims based on publicly available evidence that turn out to be false.
So you always have to re-check their claims. The good thing is that since the evidence is publicly available, so you can ALWAYS check their claims.

Over the past 3 years of analyzing MH17 reports, I found that Bellingcat and ukraine@war just happen to be extremely good.

I've only found ONE claim for which Bellingcat did not provide publicly available evidence, and ukraine@war so far is flawless.

This contradicts with Russian media sites, which create a non-stop stream of verifiably incorrect information.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 08:02:25 AM by Rob Dekker »
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budmantis

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2017, 08:01:08 AM »
Rob:

How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

BudM

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2017, 08:04:19 AM »
Rob:

How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

BudM

MH17 and the war in Ukraine information and debunking Russian disinformation is close to my heart, and I spend a LOT of time on it. Maybe 2 hours per day on average over the past 3 years.

I've also geo-located some of the videos related to MH17 and have found the evidence that the Russian Defense Ministry lied before Bellingcat reported it.

Also, the good thing is that anyone can confront ANY Russian propaganda without fear. We all can, since they have NO evidence.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 08:34:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2017, 08:58:53 AM »
The Litmus test of if a web site is distributing Russian propaganda is this :

Check what they say about MH17. If they claim that the Ukrainians did it, then it's Russian propaganda. If they claim we don't know what happened, it's Russian propaganda.

Typically such sites are combined with other conspiracy theories or claims of Western aggression against Russia, setting up WWIII.

If it smells like Russian propaganda, it probably is.
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Neven

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2017, 11:54:14 PM »
How much time do you spend checking out all this information? Maybe it's easier than I imagine, but from my POV, it seems the time investment is lengthy.

You can say that again. In the past few days, as an exercise, I've tried to find out more about MH-17 and Ukraine in general, but I just don't have the time, stamina and attention span I used to have before starting my own blog and forum. Maybe that's also why I'm more interested in the big picture than in the details, as the big picture informs my world view, and my world view motivates me to blog and so on (hoping that Arctic sea ice loss will wake enough people up to demand systemic changes, which also show a way out of the nasty vicious cycle in Ukraine).

I might read up some more about Ukraine's past, though, and maybe call an old Ukrainian friend of mine in the Netherlands to have a chat about it. It's a good exercise.

And it's winter in the Arctic now, so a bit more time. ;-)

The Litmus test of if a web site is distributing Russian propaganda is this :

Check what they say about MH17. If they claim that the Ukrainians did it, then it's Russian propaganda. If they claim we don't know what happened, it's Russian propaganda.

Typically such sites are combined with other conspiracy theories or claims of Western aggression against Russia, setting up WWIII.

If it smells like Russian propaganda, it probably is.

I agree about the Litmus test (I won't be visiting The Saker much, I fear), but that last sentence brings us back to the Cold War. At some point everything is Russian propaganda and Russia is the big, bad wolf again. I don't see how that gets us anywhere. Been there, done that.

Maybe I think that way because I don't like polarisation. I don't like We the West VS Them the Russia. If we absolutely have to polarize, then I rather think in terms of We the powerless people who want good VS Them the bad people/system that wants to eat everything. 'We' live both in the west and east, and so do 'they'. They do not think in borders, so why are we? Why are we fighting ourselves, as pawns in their game? And aren't 'they' for a large part just doing what the system demands they do?

But even if we want to remain stuck in the classic polarized mind frame:

Sure, Putin is a dictator (albeit an extremely popular one, which makes sense given Russia's history) and the Russian oligarchy is a very crude one, not even hiding itself, like lots of Western oligarchs are. But how can we be so dismissive and call everything 'Russian propaganda', when western and especially American intelligence agencies have such an atrocious (as in atrocities) track record? And when the American mainstream media always pushes for war? Why doesn't it count that Russia spends more than ten times less on its military than the USA does, and thus the influence of the military-industrial complex on American politics/policy is that much greater? Why doesn't it count that wherever there is fossil fuels, America wants a front row seat, all the while meddling back stage? Should Russia just sit by idly while the US (via NATO) and the EU aggressively expand, so that their corporations control the pipelines and the granary? And if there's a people's coup in Ukraine that everyone in the west says is rightful, shouldn't the Russophones in Eastern Ukraine have the right to secede as well?

There are so many questions like these, which lead to: Shouldn't there be some more understanding of and empathy for Russia's position? Or should we just let tensions build up all the time, with neocons, oligarchs and the press as cheerleaders?

No. The thing that is causing these geopolitical games, is the same thing that is causing AGW, financial bubbles, the cancer/diabetes epidemic, soil erosion, deforestation, growing inequality, and so on. It's the money of the ultra-rich that has no other goal but to multiply itself exponentially and endlessly.

We - the powerless people who want good - must come together and say: Enough is enough.

I know, that's all theory. But it has to start with some theory. And besides, this is an eternal battle, because in the end the world around us is a reflection of what's inside us. And inside of us is a defect that has been with us ever since our species evolved.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2017, 06:20:01 AM »
Neven said
Quote
You can say that again. In the past few days, as an exercise, I've tried to find out more about MH-17 and Ukraine in general, but I just don't have the time, stamina and attention span I used to have before starting my own blog and forum. Maybe that's also why I'm more interested in the big picture than in the details, as the big picture informs my world view,

I agree. The good thing is that you don't need to have all the details right. Just a general sense of what Russian propaganda is doing is enough. This thread is a very good example, since it touches on a lot of myths that Russia is spreading. Just re-read this thread and note that when asked for evidence, that all of the pro-Russian talking points come up empty.

Quote
I agree about the Litmus test (I won't be visiting The Saker much, I fear), but that last sentence brings us back to the Cold War.

OK. I really don't want to be held responsible for causing a new Cold War, although I think it is already too late for that, but let me change that last sentence to something that is useful to any side of an argument :

If it smells like propaganda, then ask for evidence. If it comes up empty, it is propaganda.

Just like we have seen in this thread.

Quote
Should Russia just sit by idly while the US (via NATO) and the EU aggressively expand, so that their corporations control the pipelines and the granary?

I never understood that "NATO expansion" argument and the argument that "EU aggressively expand", when related to Russia's aggression in Ukraine in 2014.

If you discount Montenegro (which joined this year) the last 'expansion' of NATO was in 2009 when Albania and Croatia joined. And the last state that joined the EU was also Croatia. Are Albania and Croatia now to blame for Russia's annexation of Crimea and the invasion into Ukraine ?

If not, why bring up the argument ?

Quote
And if there's a people's coup in Ukraine that everyone in the west says is rightful, shouldn't the Russophones in Eastern Ukraine have the right to secede as well?

There are so many questions like these, which lead to: Shouldn't there be some more understanding of and empathy for Russia's position?
[/quote]

This conflict was never about Donbass to secede from Ukraine. It was always about Russia wanting to control Ukraine.

Donbass was peaceful and quite prosperous before armed Russian military guys showed up in Sloviansk and occupied the city.
 
Imagine that France decides to send armed military groups into Belgium and occupy regional offices and cities. When the Belgium military comes in to remove them, the French army moves in and directly fights the Belgium army. The French also shoot at Belgium schools and bus stops and French-speaking cities and French propaganda tells the world that that is proof that the Belgiums are killing their own people.

Would you still have "empathy" for the French position ?

When something bad is going on in the world, you can either do nothing, or do something about it.
Everybody has a point where decide where (as you put it) "enough is enough".

For me, that point came 21st of July, 2014, when Russia started lying at the highest levels about MH17. That's when I decided to have no more "empathy for Russia's position" and instead fight their propaganda. Using the method that I found best : FACT CHECKING.

Just like we do for debunking climate change deniers.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2017, 07:57:29 AM »
Maybe the war in Ukraine is best summarized in Boris Nemtsov's "Putin.War" document.
A document for which he paid with his life :

http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf

Quote
Let us draw conclusions. "Hybrid war," in Putin's
implementation is:

- Hypocrisy. We are apparently fighting with
Ukraine, and everyone knows that. There are training
camps for fighters operating in Russian territory,
convoys with tanks move toward the Ukrainian
borders, the leaders of the separatists get approval for
their actions in the Kremlin. But supposedly we're not
fighting. Putin confidently shakes his head in reply to
direct questions, and Amb. Churkin at the UN
Security Council angrily denies all accusation of the
Kremlin.

- Lying. Were Russian paratroopers caught in
Ukrainian territory? Well, they just lost their way. Is it
proven that the separatists are using Russian
weaponry? They probably bought it at the army depot.
Ukrainians are fired on from Russian territory? But
they're bombing themselves. They are naming the last
names of Russian soldiers who were killed in eastern
Ukraine? Oh, that's it.

- Cowardice. Neither Putin nor his generals have
had the courage to admit the fact of military
aggression against Ukraine. Craven lying and
hypocrisy are served up as great political wisdom.
The cowardly and despicable war unleashed by
Putin will cost the country a lot. We will be paying for
this adventure with the lives of our soldiers, economic
crisis and political isolation.

We will pay with enmity from our long-time allies. No people are closer and more like kin to the
Russians than the Ukrainians. These are our brothers -- without any pathos -- and the war between Russians and Ukrainians in Donbass is impossible to characterize in any other way except as fratricide.

This war is the shame of our country. But the problem will not go away by itself. Putin must be
stopped. And this can only be done by the Russian people themselves.

Let us stop this war together.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2017, 08:34:48 AM »
Never forget MH17 :


« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 09:12:52 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2017, 06:18:52 PM »

Just a general sense of what Russian propaganda is doing is enough.

And is Russian propaganda the only propaganda, or is there some other propaganda we need to have a general sense of?

Quote
OK. I really don't want to be held responsible for causing a new Cold War,

Don't worry, you can't cause it personally. But you can be part of a certain kind of thinking (not saying you are, or that you're doing it consciously) that inevitably leads to it. That's what I'm trying to get at when I talk about the We Vs Them. Who is We and who is Them? If Them is 'Russia', there is no other conclusion than Cold War, or worse.

Maybe that's the whole idea? Polarization usually serves a purpose.

Quote
I never understood that "NATO expansion" argument and the argument that "EU aggressively expand", when related to Russia's aggression in Ukraine in 2014.

If you discount Montenegro (which joined this year) the last 'expansion' of NATO was in 2009 when Albania and Croatia joined. And the last state that joined the EU was also Croatia. Are Albania and Croatia now to blame for Russia's annexation of Crimea and the invasion into Ukraine ?

If not, why bring up the argument ?

Like I said, we can discuss this from the perspective of the classic polarized mind frame, of geopolitics between nation-states (as if there aren't factions of very powerful people everywhere who only care about their bottom line, not about what's good for the country). I'll discuss from that perspective and take Russia's side, so to speak, trying to describe their position:

There is talk of Ukraine becoming an EU member, right? Croatia's eastern border is 19°E, and before getting to Russia, you first have to get through several countries. Croatia is close to the heart of Europe. And Albania just slightly to the south of that. Ukraine's eastern border is 37°E, 1500 km further to the right, and right next to Russia.

Maybe Russia thinks: What's this EU nonsense? Ukraine is not Europe. These are just schemes to get hold of Ukrainian pipelines and agriculture, and to open up to Western corporations so they can suck the economy dry, like they did all over Eastern Europe in the past 20-30 years. And before you know it, NATO will place missile systems and troops on our borders, like they did in the Baltic states. It will weaken our position, and so we will take geopolitical action to prevent this. We're not as powerful as them, but we'll find other ways.

That makes perfect sense, I believe, from the Russian perspective. It doesn't mean I agree, but it makes sense if we choose to follow that particular line of thinking (West VS Russia).

Quote
This conflict was never about Donbass to secede from Ukraine. It was always about Russia wanting to control Ukraine.

Yes, and at the same time the US and lapdog EU wanting to control Ukraine as well. That's what this is all about.

Quote
Imagine that France decides to send armed military groups into Belgium and occupy regional offices and cities. When the Belgium military comes in to remove them, the French army moves in and directly fights the Belgium army. The French also shoot at Belgium schools and bus stops and French-speaking cities and French propaganda tells the world that that is proof that the Belgiums are killing their own people.

Would you still have "empathy" for the French position ?

Your analogy lacks context. If the context is that far-away Norway, as the most powerful nation in the world (with an utterly corrupt system where enormous amounts of tax money is spent on the military, where large corporations steer policy and politics, while half the country is poor and millions don't have access to health care), is clearly trying to control Belgium so that it can even more efficiently dominate France and issue demands, then yes, I understand that France may feel forced to do what it does. I don't feel empathy for it, but I understand France's position. Especially if I view it from that classic polarized perspective of Us VS Them.

But that's not my view. My view is this: Within Belgium there are two groups of people. Those who get more power and make more money if Belgium sides with France. And those who want Belgium to join Norway for the same reasons.

At the same time, there are extremely rich people in France and Norway, or corporations who act on their behalf, who will get even richer if one of the two Belgian groups manage to convince the population (through propaganda mainly) to pick geopolitical sides. This will give one of the two groups (although they actually overlap quite a bit) access to all kinds of resources that can be exported, while the profits are siphoned off elsewhere, not to the Belgian people. In the meantime they also get rich from the conflict itself. They do this all around the world, and have been doing it for many decades now.

Quote
When something bad is going on in the world, you can either do nothing, or do something about it.
Everybody has a point where decide where (as you put it) "enough is enough".

For me, that point came 21st of July, 2014, when Russia started lying at the highest levels about MH17. That's when I decided to have no more "empathy for Russia's position" and instead fight their propaganda. Using the method that I found best : FACT CHECKING.

For me, that point came after 9/11 and the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. And for a while I thought the US was to blame. But now, by taking the other perspective (of We powerless people who want good VS Them who only want power and money because that's what the system is stimulating), I realize it has nothing to do with the US or its people, but with money trying to multiply itself exponentially and endlessly. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Ukraine, Caucasus, within the West itself, it doesn't care.

It doesn't care about nation-states or their populations. It doesn't care about financial bubbles, global warming, resource depletion, cancer epidemics, environmental destruction. It doesn't even care about its owners.

Quote
Just like we do for debunking climate change deniers.

You make the same mistaken analogy as Terry. We debunk deniers when it comes to hard science. This becomes more difficult when it comes to climate change policy, because facts can be interpreted in different ways. It's even more difficult when talking about geopolitical conflicts, because there is so much propaganda. Propaganda doesn't consist only of lies, but also in how the truth is framed. In that sense, the 'cui bono' can be just as important as the 'facts'.

I'm not a fan of (Russia under) Putin, but I'm too old to believe in big bad wolf stories. There are many big bad wolves, and some sleep right under my bed. I don't want to choose between wolves, I want to choose the lamb.
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johnm33

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2017, 01:37:58 AM »
Well said Neven.
I like my propaganda with a little bernays source.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2017, 01:53:11 AM »
"I like my propaganda with a little bernays source."

Bravo!

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2017, 04:22:20 AM »
It's worse than I thought.

Neven, you touch on many subjects, but in general I feel that you are using what is called "whataboutism" : Whatabout US propaganda, Whatabout all these other conflicts, Whatabout all that money that just wants to multiply itself etc etc.

Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument about Ukraine is that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is 'understandable' (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?

Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:49:51 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2017, 10:37:41 AM »
It's worse than I thought.

Neven, you touch on many subjects, but in general I feel that you are using what is called "whataboutism" : Whatabout US propaganda, Whatabout all these other conflicts, Whatabout all that money that just wants to multiply itself etc etc.
Yes, context, the bigger picture, not just the mainstream/establishment narrative that inevitably leads to Cold War, or worse. You know, where Russia is the anti-Christ and everything they say, is propaganda. Where we do not consider the influence of the military-industrial complex (on politics, policy and media), or the reason for this influence. Where we forget how the powerless are set up against each other, as pawns in a bigger, hidden game. Also known as 'history'.

Quote
Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is understandable (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?
If I would want to do this thoroughly, I would have to start my search in Ukraine itself. Now, my Ukrainian and Russian aren't all that great, and the question is also whether you could/would accept it as evidence, given that you probably don't speak those languages either and anything Russian can easily construed as propaganda by linking to mainstream media (epistemic closure).

BTW, I didn't even know Ukraine was as divided as this:



If I would have to do it using English and German sources, it would probably lead me to things like USAID, NEDC, Victoria Nuland (things I saw mentioned while trying to get a quick overall view). I could investigate the situation with regards to pipelines, shale gas (saw something about Joe Biden's coke-sniffing son), fossil fuels in general, and let's not forget agricultural lands (Bayer/Monsanto probably interested). I even saw something about diamonds, in some video my gut instinct said wasn't trustworthy.

Of course, as Budmantis has alluded to, it would take hundreds of hours.

I'm simply deducting. There are almost always two sides to a conflict, so why focus just on one side? Because a plane was shot down, filled with people we can identify with? Every day at least as many people are killed (in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) that we can't identify with (because they're poor and can't fly to Bali for a three-week holiday), but I guess that's why there isn't any uproar and we just shrug it off.

There's a history of American meddling in almost any place where there is something to gain for corporations, toppling democracies and installing dictators, starting illegal wars, Abu Ghraib/Gitmo, torture, and so on. Why would it be different this time? Because I can't find evidence in mainstream media? Or is it the same old lesser-evil-schtick again?

And how about this:



As for the EU, they say Ukraine can apply for membership! This is a clear provocation given the historical division in Ukraine, never mind the discussion whether Ukraine can be even considered part of Europe. Who are next, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh? The message in itself could be considered propaganda, riling up the Ukrainians. And not for a minute do I believe it's for freedom and democracy. I don't know what NGOs are doing to push the EU-illusion in Ukraine, but I'm sure something can be found.

Quote
Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
No, Rob, the answer is: The Ukrainian people, the Russian people, the people of Europe, the American people, powerless people around the world, who, given a choice, don't want these power games that are only played to make the concentrated money mountain even bigger. Nobody wants a new Cold War, or worse, except for a small group of people who get rich from it, a slightly larger group of maniacs who look forward to some killing, raping and looting, and a much larger group of people who get swayed by all the propaganda. But that much larger group, given a choice, at heart doesn't want any of that.

And given that this process is systematic, it's clear that the solution lies in changing the system so that it gets harder for concentrated money mountains to form in the first place.

But to get back to the subject: I'm not apologizing for anyone, or saying things are acceptable. I'm just reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective (not my real perspective that I espoused again in the preceding paragraph). Why don't we turn it around, Rob? Why don't you play devil's advocate and explain what Russia/Putin should be doing?

BTW, I thought this was funny:
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2017, 11:03:15 AM »

Quote
Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is understandable (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?
If I would want to do this thoroughly, I would have to start my search in Ukraine itself. Now, my Ukrainian and Russian aren't all that great, and the question is also whether you could/would accept it as evidence, given that you probably don't speak those languages either and anything Russian can easily construed as propaganda by linking to mainstream media (epistemic closure).

BTW, I didn't even know Ukraine was as divided as this:



If I would have to do it using English and German sources, it would probably lead me to things like USAID, NEDC, Victoria Nuland (things I saw mentioned while trying to get a quick overall view). I could investigate the situation with regards to pipelines, shale gas (saw something about Joe Biden's coke-sniffing son), fossil fuels in general, and let's not forget agricultural lands (Bayer/Monsanto probably interested). I even saw something about diamonds, in some video my gut instinct said wasn't trustworthy.

Of course, as Budmantis has alluded to, it would take hundreds of hours.

I'm simply deducting. There are almost always two sides to a conflict, so why focus just on one side? Because a plane was shot down, filled with people we can identify with? Every day at least as many people are killed (in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) that we can't identify with (because they're poor and can't fly to Bali for a three-week holiday), but I guess that's why there isn't any uproar and we just shrug it off.

There's a history of American meddling in almost any place where there is something to gain for corporations, toppling democracies and installing dictators, starting illegal wars, Abu Ghraib/Gitmo, torture, and so on. Why would it be different this time? Because I can't find evidence in mainstream media? Or is it the same old lesser-evil-schtick again?


These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.

Quote
And how about this:




You know that "socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com" is a pro-Russian blog site right ?
The ridiculous quote "look how close they put their country to our military bases" should have been a dead give-away.

Quote
As for the EU, they say Ukraine can apply for membership! This is a clear provocation given the historical division in Ukraine, never mind the discussion whether Ukraine can be even considered part of Europe. Who are next, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh? The message in itself could be considered propaganda, riling up the Ukrainians. And not for a minute do I believe it's for freedom and democracy. I don't know what NGOs are doing to push the EU-illusion in Ukraine, but I'm sure something can be found.


Here, you are even questioning if Ukraine can be considered part of Europe.
That's borderline racist, Neven.

Quote
Quote
Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
No, Rob, the answer is: The Ukrainian people, the Russian people, the people of Europe, the American people, powerless people around the world, who, given a choice, don't want these power games that are only played to make the concentrated money mountain even bigger. Nobody wants a new Cold War, or worse, except for a small group of people who get rich from it, a slightly larger group of maniacs who look forward to some killing, raping and looting, and a much larger group of people who get swayed by all the propaganda. But that much larger group, given a choice, at heart doesn't want any of that.

And given that this process is systematic, it's clear that the solution lies in changing the system so that it gets harder for concentrated money mountains to form in the first place.

But to get back to the subject: I'm not apologizing for anyone, or saying things are acceptable. I'm just reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective (not my real perspective that I espoused again in the preceding paragraph).

I understand that you feel that you are just "reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective", but that is not much of comfort to the Ukrainian people who have their sons killed by Russians.

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Why don't we turn it around, Rob? Why don't you play devil's advocate and explain what Russia/Putin should be doing?

I think Putin should get the fuck out of Ukraine, apologize to the Ukrainian people for killing 10,000 of their citizens, return Donbass and Crimea to Ukraine and cooperate with the JIT to bring the perpetrators of the downing of MH17 to justice.

That would be a good start.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:27:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2017, 01:02:41 PM »
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)

Quote
These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.
No, that's a lot of words to say what I said: To do it properly would take hundreds of hours and learning two new languages (I can understand them a bit, having worked as a translator/subtitler for RTL Nederland during the Orange Revolution), not knowing if you would/could accept the evidence. I simply don't have that time, as my activism lies elsewhere (convincing people Arctic sea ice loss is a potential catastrophe).

I can also use Google and then shoot off stuff like this, not having the time to thoroughly investigate it myself, and thus putting the burden on you to counter-argument (as if your time isn't precious):

Quote
Arriving in the Ukrainian capital on August 3, Pyatt almost immediately authorized a grant for an online television outlet called Hromadske.TV, which would prove essential to building the Euromaidan street demonstrations against Yanukovych. The grant was only $43,737, with an additional $4,796 by November 13. Just enough to buy the modest equipment the project needed.

Many of Hromadske's journalists had worked in the past with American benefactors. Editor-in-chief Roman Skrypin was a frequent contributor to Washington's Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty and the US-funded Ukrayinska Pravda. In 2004, he had helped create Channel 5 television, which played a major role in the Orange Revolution that the US and its European allies masterminded in 2004.

Skrypin had already gotten $10,560 from George Soros's International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), which came as a recommendation to Pyatt. Sometime between December and the following April, IRF would give Hromadske another $19,183.

Hromadske's biggest funding in that period came from the Embassy of the Netherlands, which gave a generous $95,168. As a departing US envoy to the Hague said in a secret cable that Wikileaks later made public, "Dutch pragmatism and our similar world-views make the Netherlands fertile ground for initiatives others in Europe might be reluctant, at least initially, to embrace."

For Pyatt, the payoff came on November 21, when President Yanukovych pulled back from an Association Agreement with the European Union. Within hours Hromadske.TV went online and one of its journalists set the spark that brought Yanukovych down.

"Enter a lonely, courageous Ukrainian rebel, a leading investigative journalist," writes Snyder. "A dark-skinned journalist who gets racially profiled by the regime. And a Muslim. And an Afghan. This is Mustafa Nayem, the man who started the revolution. Using social media, he called students and other young people to rally on the main square of Kiev in support of a European choice for Ukraine."

All credit to Nayem for his undeniable courage. But bad, bad history. Snyder fails to mention that Pyatt, Soros, and the Dutch had put Web TV at the uprising's disposal. Without their joint funding of Hromadske and its streaming video from the Euromaidan, the revolution might never have been televised and Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction.

For better or for worse, popular uprisings have changed history long before radio, television, or the Internet. The new technologies only speed up the game. Pyatt and his team understood that and masterfully turned soft power and the exercise of free speech, press, and assembly into a televised revolution on demand, complete with an instant overdub in English. Soros then funded a Ukrainian Crisis Media Center "to inform the international community about events in Ukraine," and I'm still trying to track down who paid for Euromaidan PR, the website of the Official Public Relations Secretariat for the Headquarters of the National Resistance.
Is this any use? I'm sure there's more than this, and some part of it will inevitably be undeniable, which makes sense, because history has shown that the US is always meddling when it comes to this kind of geopolitical conflicts that involve resources, weapon sales and privatisation.

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You know that "socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com" is a pro-Russian blog site right ?
The ridiculous quote "look how close they put their country to our military bases" should have been a dead give-away.
I think the ridiculous quote was an attempt at sarcasm, the point being that the US/NATO has surrounded Russia with military bases. It would be simplistic to say that this doesn't have an influence on Putin/Russia and their behaviour. Imagine Putin doing the same in Canada and Mexico.

That was the gist of my argument, and so I didn't even look where that image came from. Do I have to modify my comment and replace that image with the same image (showing US/NATO military bases near Russia), but from a source you deem reliable? Or is your point that the US/NATO doesn't have military bases near Russia's borders?

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I understand that you feel that you are just "reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective", but that is not much of comfort to the Ukrainian people who have their sons killed by Russians.
Absolutely! One big reason for their sons being killed (as well as the sons of Russian mothers)is the classical geopolitical perspective, as it inevitably leads to a new Cold War, or worse. If enough people on both sides hold this perspective, things can only get worse. That's why I'm espousing another perspective, where the We is 'all powerless people in the world who don't want war' and the They is 'a small group of people and their servants who want the mountain of concentrated money to become even bigger'.

I'm not sure we'll get much further than this, Rob. You're more interested in the details and morals. I'm more interested in repetitive historical patterns and how to break through them (probably naive). And my wife is saying I need to get back to business (working, gardening and preparing for next year's melting season).  ;)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 01:10:12 PM by Neven »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2017, 08:13:05 AM »
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)

That is because I don't want to be an advocate for evil, Neven.

Quote
Quote
These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.
No, that's a lot of words to say what I said: To do it properly would take hundreds of hours and learning two new languages (I can understand them a bit, having worked as a translator/subtitler for RTL Nederland during the Orange Revolution), not knowing if you would/could accept the evidence. I simply don't have that time, as my activism lies elsewhere (convincing people Arctic sea ice loss is a potential catastrophe).


You claimed that I needed to see the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine in 'context'. That the west is also trying to control Ukraine. And that they do so "through propaganda mainly".

Now you are telling me that to obtain evidence of that western propaganda, you need to learn two languages etc etc.

So you did not know if the west actually imposed control on Ukraine by means of propaganda.
You just assumed it. That is a problem by itself, but it is worse because you used it as an argument to see the conflict in 'context' of western propaganda.

Let's explore this 'context' a bit more :

On one side we have Russia, who annexed a part of the territory of Ukraine in the first land grab of any nation since WWII. Russia also started a war in another part of Ukraine where about 10,000 Ukrainians lost their lives, and to top it off Russia shot down an international airliner and lied about it. They violated at least 6 international treaties in the process.

On the other hand, in terms of western control we have Hromadske.TV.
A single Web TV channel, set up by a small grant from the US and Holland, which happens to cover the Euromaidan.

Seriously, Neven ?

Why did you completely loose perspective in this conflict ?

For a better perspective, Wikipedia has a good overview of what happened during Euromaidan :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan
and please tell me where you think the west asserted 'control' or even 'propaganda' during that uprising.

Also note this section from your quote :
Quote
Without their joint funding of Hromadske and its streaming video from the Euromaidan, the revolution might never have been televised and Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction.

Apart from the fact that it is absurd to think that one Web TV channel could have made a difference, they make it sound as if "Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction" would have been a good thing.

Do YOU think it would have been a good thing if Yanukovych would have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction, Neven ?

I find your position on the conflict especially surprising, since you always seem to stand up for the people (the lambs).

Now, here we have the ONLY popular uprising in Europe in recent history where the people (powerless people who don't want war) actually managed to democratically remove a highly corrupt oppressive President from office, by rising up by the millions across hundreds of cities in Ukraine, for many months.

Only to get invaded by a neighbor in a bloody war packed with hypocritical propaganda from Russia.

And in exactly THAT popular uprising you seem to just parrot that Russian propaganda...
I don't get it, Neven.

[edit] I vowed to fight Russian propaganda back in 2014. I never could have imagined that I'd have to fight it with the founder of the ASIF.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:10:35 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2017, 11:11:29 AM »
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)
That is because I don't want to be an advocate for evil, Neven.

Wikipedia: In common parlance, the term devil's advocate describes someone who, given a certain point of view, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.

I understand your unwillingness to even consider the Russian perspective, but the danger is that you become blind to your biases and prejudices, and thus vulnerable to propaganda that you may perceive as facts or reliable news.

That's not a personal reproach. It's something everyone suffers from. We are all biased, all of us.

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You claimed that I needed to see the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine in 'context'. That the west is also trying to control Ukraine. And that they do so "through propaganda mainly".

Yes, and that the West (controlled by people doing the bidding of the concentrated money mountain) is doing things that pushes Russia (controlled by people doing the bidding of another concentrated money mountain) to do other things. Like the NATO bases, the sanctions, or the demonisation of Putin/Russia (maybe it isn't demonisation, but it certainly is perceived that way by many Russians).

A lot of what Russia does, makes sense. That doesn't make it right. But it takes two to tango.

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Now you are telling me that to obtain evidence of that western propaganda, you need to learn two languages etc etc.

Of course I do! Do you think I can otherwise find it on CNN or MSNBC, or in the Washington Post or New York Times? Would they publish such things if they existed? Of course they wouldn't. People would lose their jobs if they did. Absence of evidence, etc...

And so I would need to get to the source, which I can only do by learning Ukrainian and Russian. Because a lot of stuff gets lost (or added) in translation.

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So you did not know if the west actually imposed control on Ukraine by means of propaganda.
You just assumed it. That is a problem by itself, but it is worse because you used it as an argument to see the conflict in 'context' of western propaganda.

Yes, I assumed it, given the track record of US intelligence agencies. We can wait 40-50 years to see if that assumption was correct yet again.

Quote
Let's explore this 'context' a bit more :

On one side we have Russia, who annexed a part of the territory of Ukraine in the first land grab of any nation since WWII. Russia also started a war in another part of Ukraine where about 10,000 Ukrainians lost their lives, and to top it off Russia shot down an international airliner and lied about it. They violated at least 6 international treaties in the process.

On the other hand, in terms of western control we have Hromadske.TV.
A single Web TV channel, set up by a small grant from the US and Holland, which happens to cover the Euromaidan.

Seriously, Neven ?

Why did you completely loose perspective in this conflict ?

Again, I'm going to discuss this from the simple classic geopolitical perspective, where nation-states only do things that benefit the nation-state, all fueled by ideology, good guys, bad guys, etc. Which isn't my perspective at all. I've told you what my perspective is.

First of all, what Russia did, was a reaction to Euromaidan (as well as boost Putin's popularity during hard economic times for Russia due to oil price and sanctions, with western propaganda trying to weaken his position with the people). I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying it makes sense from the Russian perspective.

Second, we'll talk treaties as soon as the US honours them.

Third, the Hromadske.tv thing was just a quick example. Again, for better evidence I would have to scour Ukrainian and Russian media, and I just don't have time for that.

Fourth, the Hromadske.tv thing is evidence of what I said: A small group within Ukraine is bound to benefit financially and politically if Ukraine falls into the EU/US sphere (think of all the privatisation, pipe lines, agricultural land), and so they get help from the EU and US to achieve this from within. One could argue this is a 'land grab', a tried and tested recipe. I'm sure someone like Poroshenko already has enough oligarchic corruption in him to assist in whatever the multinationals may require, getting a commission for all that is siphoned off.

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Apart from the fact that it is absurd to think that one Web TV channel could have made a difference, they make it sound as if "Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction" would have been a good thing.

Do YOU think it would have been a good thing if Yanukovych would have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction, Neven ?

That's a dilemma, Rob. If the thing had been crushed, Russia most likely wouldn't have annexed Crimea, killed 10 thousand Ukrainians and shot down MH-17. Don't you agree?

Quote
I find your position on the conflict especially surprising, since you always seem to stand up for the people (the lambs).

For ALL the people of all the nations, Rob. Not just one people pitted against the other. I've learned that from the war in former Yugoslavia. Not falling into that trap again.

Quote
Now, here we have the ONLY popular uprising in Europe in recent history where the people (powerless people who don't want war) actually managed to democratically remove a highly corrupt oppressive President from office, by rising up by the millions across hundreds of cities in Ukraine, for many months.

Ukraine is historically divided to a very high degree. Millions people may want one thing (spurred on by the small group who see an opportunity), while millions of others may want another thing (spurred on by another small group). Remember, although Yanukovych was indeed highly corrupt (who isn't in post-communist countries?), he was actually democratically elected. If Euromaidan was so big, why didn't they just make sure their guy was elected in the next elections, one year later (assuming the impeachment was democratic)?

Because the country is highly divided:



The last thing a highly divided country needs, is corrupt populists on both sides of the divide, backed by external parties.

Quote
And in exactly THAT popular uprising you seem to just parrot that Russian propaganda...
I don't get it, Neven.

I've told you what my real perspective is (not the one where I posit arguments that things aren't black and white, even on the classical geopolitical level, where we discard the hidden oligarchic money game), and I think it's pretty neutral, because I denounce everyone who tries to use the division in Ukraine to gain power and/or money. And they're on both sides, as in almost every conflict. I've witnessed the war in Yugoslavia up close. I know how it works. I want another mindset where I can shrug off the propaganda, because I know that the core of what I believe, is sound.

Not everything that goes against the mainstream/establishment narrative (which currently is a clear regression to Cold War mentalities) is automatically Russian propaganda. It just doesn't work that way.

You are giving me two choices, and I'm choosing neither. So, we're not going to get anywhere, just walk in circles, and get more agitated every round.

The only thing we may discuss is where we think this should be heading, how the conflict can be solved.

I think the division needs to be formalized one way or other, so that the part of Ukraine that wants to work together with EU/US, can do that, and the part that wants to stay close to Russia, can do so too. Just formalize it, so it can stop festering and be abused.

Maybe some sort of confederation consisting of a West and East Ukraine (like Flanders and Wallonia). Get free trade going again, with as little corruption as possible (politicians can't use the polarisation/division anymore for power and money). But no foreign troops within the confederation's borders. No Russia, no EU, no NATO/US. At the same time relieve sanctions against Russia, build up diplomatic relations, and continue nuclear disarmament asap.

Oh yes, and while we're at it: set a limit on how much an oligarch can own.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:17:30 AM by Neven »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2017, 01:09:39 AM »
Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2017, 03:20:57 AM »
Cohen is one of the few sane voices in leftpondistan, and Chomsky of course needs no praise from me. But may we continue this discussion in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread, please ?

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2017, 03:30:35 AM »
Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.


'T'is intriguing, I had to take two years away from the Arctic ice to wrap my head around it. What worked for me re. the language problem was to find a site with both sides well represented. When a translation was made, the other side would object and offer their translation. Eventually consensus would be reached and that translation could be trusted.


Following the money and asking who gains an advantage from a certain action can be very effective, especially now that propaganda sources have had time to get all their ducks in a row.


Best of luck
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2017, 05:26:14 AM »
But may we continue this discussion in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread, please ?

I was just about to make the same suggestion.
So for once I agree with sidd  :)
Maybe you can drop a link there, Neven ?
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2017, 08:28:52 AM »
Let's summarize what we have found so far in this thread :

- The allegation that the US was planning to build a Naval Base on Crimea turned out to be support for the renovation of a school in Ukraine.

- The allegation that the "West" supports Nazi's in Ukraine turned out to be restricted to delivery of goods to the Ukraine military, where the most intimidating piece of equipment are night vision goggles. [sarcasm on] Maybe the "Nazi's" in Ukraine can scare away the Russians that invaded their country by wearing these goggles [sarcasm off].

- The battalion that is so heavily blamed for being "Nazi" (Azov) turns out to have NO confirmed violations of human rights. Only a few 'allegations' that have not been confirmed and at closer investigation don't stand the test of seriousness.

- The (Nazi) "coup" in Ukraine turned out to be the democratic removal of a corrupt president after a popular uprising of millions of Ukrainians.

- All available evidence suggests that MH17 was shot down by a Russian BUK, brought in from Russia the day before, and returned to Russia the day after. The only question is if MH17 was shot down deliberately, or if it was some sort of so far unexplained colossal failure in the chain of command.

- The political parties in Ukraine that were labeled as "Nazi" by some commenters here appear to be Nationalist only, with platforms similar to other Nationalist parties in Europe, and either way have single digit voter counts in Ukraine and currently have NO representation in the Ukraine Rada.

- The allegation that "western propaganda" was a major factor in Ukraine turns out to be restricted to one small internet video channel (Hromadske.tv) which just happened to cover the Euromaidan.

- All the accusations about Nazis in Ukraine and Western support all appear to be empty Russian propaganda with no basis in fact.

Let me also note that NO evidence of support to Ukraine of ANY kind was reported by any of the posters here. It was only me who noted the shipments of night vision goggles to Ukraine (OK, and Hromadske.tv reported by Neven).

The main reason sidd thought that there was Western support for Ukrainian "Nazis" is the Azov battalion.
We already discovered before that Azov does not have any human rights violations on their record,
only some allegations, which at closer examination appear to be just void of evidence.

Now I found some more evidence that Azov is not as "Nazi" as Russian propaganda wants us to believe : For starters, more than half of the battalion’s fighters are Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians :
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html

Also, if Azov is "Nazi" then why is a jew funding them ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

With the rampant Russian propaganda going around especially when it pertains to Ukraine, can we please consider that this whole idea of Azov battalion being "Nazi" is just one big pile of horse-shit of Russian propaganda, just like all the other claims of alleged western interference in Ukraine ?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:48:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2017, 09:35:56 AM »
This is getting quite repetitive.

I have laid out my evidence and Rob has laid out his. This thread is not that long, people can read easily.

If i find more evidence i will post and i hope others do also, bearing in mind the title of this thread.

As far as Russian support for anybody, or airliner shootdown, please take it to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2017, 11:52:28 AM »
I forgot there's that other thread, sorry.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2017, 07:06:57 PM »
I've never found a Gish Gallop to be conducive to rational debate.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2017, 07:47:12 PM »
each day i stumble upon this thread due to the new posts since last read and i want o ask the owner of this thread whether he still thinks that the "nazi" term is correct. i mean "nazi" means something very specific that does not apply to just righ-wing and/or faschist movements. not every nationalist, member of a right-wing party or movement and not every faschist is a nazi, in fact and IMO none of them is a nazi if he is/was not a member of the "nationalsozialistische partei deutschlands"

either i'm right or you tell me and i learn something (where i'm wrong here)

the reason why i post this is:

a) i see and think about it each day again

b) there is way too much fuss about those beaten and beheaded morons which at times makes the impression that there some people try to glorify them. Nazis are a thing of the past and even thought the way of thinking is not, the current movements should be given another name to avoid
the impression that there could be a revival which exactly serves their intentions in some way.

as i said, i'm open to other points o view and ready to learn and stand corrected should i see this wrong in a way that can objectively be proven.

EDIT: what i'm heading at is whether the title could be changed to something without "buzzwords"
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:00:56 PM by magnamentis »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2017, 07:58:49 PM »
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2017, 08:06:39 PM »
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd

sure i understand the meaning and i clearly share your view, i mean "that specific word" which come across almost each day because there are so many german channels, even some of which i really consider "serious" who repeat "nazi" BS almost on a daily basis, bordering to glorification of the guys even though saying otherwise.

while i would never get to them to discuss this i thought i ask the question here because i'm totally certain about the meaning and intention to be right (good)

however there is not that much importance to it to start a greater OT discussion, i just asked and have no intention to go any further with this.

thanks for your reply sidd and i did never expect anything else than what you said (meant)
let's call it a bit of an allergy towards that "N" word used so often on all kinds of opportunities
not claiming that i'm right and others are not.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2017, 05:51:56 AM »
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd

Sidd, I've read up on some of the historical reports regarding Bandera before and during WWII, and I find it hard to find any solid evidence that he was a "Nazi". If you know of any, please refer to it and please be specific.

At least post something more specific than these these general references to pro-Russian opinion pieces you posted before.

As a leader of the OUN, he was definitively a "Nationalist" since he declared the independence of Ukraine in 1941 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Ukrainian_State_Act

The Germans wanted to crush this independence movement, and the Gestapo arrested him on 15 September 1941 and he became a prisoner in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Thousands of OUN members were subsequently rounded up and executed by the Germans. Both of Bandera's brothers were eventually murdered at Auschwitz.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kPK3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=Both+of+Bandera%27s+brothers+were+eventually+murdered+at+Auschwitz.&source=bl&ots=FU7Y4oh8Zv&sig=Psnl8HvE6zSbvWCmFSQE-jfaXrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjonI7Oq-_WAhVG04MKHaiVANgQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Both%20of%20Bandera's%20brothers%20were%20eventually%20murdered%20at%20Auschwitz.&f=false

In general, I find it hard to find out the details of exactly what happened back during WWII, since much of it seems so much left over to historians opinions about who was really Nazi and who not or even what exactly happened and who exactly was in charge. So I'm with magnamentis on this one ; don't use the "N" word so easily.

In absence of clear evidence of atrocities committed by Bandera, I don't think it is fair to project anything on his "ideological descendants". Also this happened three generations ago, and at this point, the only thing left over from Bandera ideology (if it was ever any different) is the ideology of a free and independent Ukraine.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 07:07:01 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2017, 07:24:33 AM »
I also found this account of the Bandera movement :

Quote
“The activities of the western Ukrainian Bandera group have an increasingly detrimental effect on the remaining Ukrainian regions...They present an acute danger to German interests, both at the present time and in the future.  Appropriate defense measures have been taken.” (Report № 4 of the Einsatzgruppen of the Secret Police and the SD, September 1–15, 1941)

On November 25, 1941 the Einsatzkommando C/5 issues an order to its units stating: “It has been established with certainty that the Bandera movement is preparing an uprising in the Reichskommissariat, whose ultimate objective is to create an independent Ukraine.  All functionaries of the Bandera movement are to be immediately arrested and after thorough interrogation, secretly executed as marauders.” (International Military Tribunal, Proceedings, Nuremberg, 1949, vol.39, Document 014-USSR, №7, pp. 269-270)

“Today, it has been clearly established that the Bandera movement is providing   forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.” (Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)

http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/28

Which is consistent with earlier accounts that the Germans considered the Bandera movement a threat to German rule, and also suggests that the Bandera movement is trying to help Jews.

Doesn't sound like a Nazi movement to me.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2017, 09:53:51 AM »
The wikipedia article on Bandera is quite well referenced. I recommend reading it with attention to OUN.

extract from wikipedia. note that this resolution was adopted before bandera fell out with the Nazis foraminnit.

--
Hostility to both the Soviet central government and the Jewish minority were highlighted at the OUN-B's Conference in Kraków in May 1941, at which the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[36] The program declared that:

    The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.[44]

Section G of the program – "Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outlined activity of the Bandera followers during mid-1941.[37] In a subsection on "Minority Policy", the leaders of OUN-B ordered:

    "Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible." [45][46][47]

...
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause. A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews."[60] The false papers were most likely supplied to Jewish doctors or skilled workers who could be useful for the movement.[61]

--

Then in 1944 the Nazis let him out again...

Anyhoo, i am not particularly interested in Bandera's needs to kill all Jews or all Poles or merely some of them. He is close enuf to Nazi for me without that.  And so are those who march under his potrait.

The movement to rehabilitate Bandera strikes me as eerily close to a similar movement in India (a movement whose political arm is currently in power) to rehabilitate a guy called Nathuram Godse. Look him up, but do bear in mind that to discuss Godse we probably need yet another thread.

I guess some of us remember more, being older.

sidd



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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #131 on: October 14, 2017, 10:48:37 AM »
Sidd, you are again not specific.
Give me just ONE clear example of Bandera movement being Nazi.

I dug into one excerpt from your quoted text with a publicly accessible reference :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Quote
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause.
So which is it. Help them or kill them ?
Either way, this conclusion is NOT supported by the reference they give in Wikipedia ([60] in the wiki page) .

But this next line is :

Quote
A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.

That was similar to the text I quoted above (referenced as "(Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)" which suggests that the Bandera movement was helping Jews.

All of this in Wikipedia is from this reference ([60] in the wiki page) :

"The KGB disinformation campaign against Ukrainians and Jews"

www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/divide-and-conquer-the-kgb-disinformation-campaign-against-ukrainians-and-jews

Please be specific in your claims that Bandera was "Nazi" because so far you are just hand waving and the evidence that we DO have is suggesting the opposite.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 11:39:33 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #132 on: October 14, 2017, 08:21:18 PM »
I posted a specific passages from the OUN party manifesto:

"Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Nazi enuf for me, but not for some, apparently.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #133 on: October 14, 2017, 08:26:27 PM »
I posted a specific passages from the OUN party manifesto:

"Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Nazi enuf for me, but not for some, apparently.

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #134 on: October 14, 2017, 10:30:45 PM »
For a longish look at Bandera and his party, there is a three part series brginning at

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-nationalism-part-i-prelude-to-war/

That article has links to parts 2 and 3.

There is a review of Bandera and the OUN at jacobin by Daniel Lazare

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/

"A month earlier, Bandera and his chief lieutenants — Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Stepan Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko — had put the finishing touches on an internal party document entitled “The Struggle and Activities of the OUN in Wartime,” a to-do list for when the Wehrmacht crossed the Soviet border.

It called on members to take advantage of the “favorable situation” posed by a “war between Moscow and other states” to create a national revolution that would draw up all Ukraine in its vortex. It conceived of revolution as a great purification process in which “Muscovites, Poles, and Jews” would be “destroyed . . . in particular those who protect the [Soviet] regime.” Although the OUN regarded the Nazis as allies, the document stressed that OUN activists should commence the revolution as soon as possible so as present the Wehrmacht with a fait accompli:

    We treat the coming German army as the army of allies. We try before their coming to put life in order, on our own as it should be. We inform them that the Ukrainian authority is already established, it is under the control of the OUN under the leadership of Stepan Bandera; all matters are regulated by the OUN and the local authorities are ready to establish friendly relations with the army, in order to fight together against Moscow.

The document continued that “it is permissible to liquidate undesirable Poles . . . NKVD people, informers, provocateurs . . . all important Ukrainians who, in the critical time, would try to make ‘their politics’ and thereby threaten the decisive mind-set of the Ukrainian nation,” adding that only one party would be permitted under the new order — the OUN."

Bandera was even ready to reconsider Ukrainian independence in favor of closer alliance with Nazi Germany.

"In a letter to Alfred Rosenberg in August 1941, Bandera offered to meet German objections by reconsidering the question of Ukrainian independence. On December 9, he sent him another letter pleading for reconciliation: “German and Ukrainian interests in Eastern Europe are identical. For both sides, it is a vital necessity to consolidate (normalize) Ukraine in the best and fastest way and to include it in the European spiritual, economic, and political system.”

"Ukrainian nationalism, he went on, had taken shape “in a spirit similar to the National Socialist ideas” and was needed to “spiritually cure the Ukrainian youth” who had been poisoned by their upbringing under the Soviets."

"Citing the Polish historian Grezegorz Motyka, Rossoliński-Liebe says that the UPA killed close to 100,000 Poles between 1943 and 1945 and that Orthodox priests blessed the axes, pitchforks, scythes, sickles, knives, and sticks that the peasants it mobilized used to finish them off.

Simultaneously, UPA attacks on Jews continued at such a ferocious level that Jews actually sought the protection of the Germans. “The Banderite bands and the local nationalists raided every night, decimating the Jews,” a survivor testified in 1948. “Jews sheltered in the camps where Germans were stationed, fearing an attack by Banderites. Some German soldiers were brought to protect the camps and thereby also the Jews.”

Yup. Nazi enuf for me.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2017, 11:02:46 PM »
sidd


Thanks for setting the record straight. I've two Polish friends who lost family to Bandera's thugs.
They're furious at those trying to remake Bandera as some kind of heroic figure.


If people self identify as Nazi, I'll accept their word for it.
Terry




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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #136 on: October 15, 2017, 06:20:53 AM »
I looked around a LOT to find an english version of that "OUN manifesto" that sidd was talking about, and that was mentioned in the wiki pages.

It took me a while, but I found this :
http://rid.org.ua/borot-ba-j-diyal-nist-oun-pid-chas-vijn/

I'm not really sure if this is the actual document the OUN compiled, but assuming it is, I think that this Bandera guy was up to no good.
I used Google translate to read this document, and it looks like his intent was to create some sort of totalitarian state, not unlike Germany's Nazi government or Russia's Stalin empire.

The note about Minority policy is also noteworthy : It looks like Bandera envisioned a state in which no criticism or perceived criticism of the state would be tolerated, especially not by minority groups, which is very much Nazi behavior.

Overall, Bandera appears to be a very controversial figure in history, and if you guys want to put the Nazi stamp on him, I will no longer object.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 07:13:04 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #137 on: October 15, 2017, 06:49:08 AM »
I'm relieved.
Will you now be willing to reconsider your stance on those who hold Bandera in very high regard?
Terry


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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2017, 06:50:41 AM »
I'm relieved.
Will you now be willing to reconsider your stance on those who hold Bandera in very high regard?
Terry
Can you be specific, Terry ?
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2017, 06:55:01 AM »
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #140 on: October 15, 2017, 07:44:40 AM »
For a detailed look at Bandera and associates

Marco Carynnyk (2011) Foes of our rebirth: Ukrainian nationalist discussions
about Jews, 1929–1947, Nationalities Papers, 39:3, 315-352, DOI: 10.1080/00905992.2011.570327

"The article examines archival documents, publications by OUN members, and recent scholarly literature to trace the evolution of OUN thinking about Jews from 1929 through the war years, when the German occupation of Ukraine gave the OUN an opportunity to stage pogroms and persecute Jews, and the prime minister of the state that the OUN proclaimed wrote that he supported “the destruction of the Jews and the expedience of bringing German methods of exterminating Jewry to Ukraine”.

"When the Cracow congress closed, Stepan Bandera asked three of his closest companions – Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Roman Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko – to join him in preparing a master plan for the moment when Germany would attack the Soviet Union."

"With the rest of the disarmed soldiers do as follows: Russians peasants to be disarmed and handed over as prisoners to the Germans, that is, to be liquidated. Other nationalities to be permitted to go home. Political officers and known Communists and Russians to be liquidated. The same (somewhat sharper) with NKVD units. (3833/2/1/31, TsDAVOVU)"

"The national minorities are divided into

a) those that are friendly to us, that is, members of previously subjugated peoples
b) those that are hostile to us, Russians, Poles, Jews.

Re a. Have equal rights with Ukrainians; we help them return to their homelands.

Re b. Destruction in battle, particularly those who defend the regime: deportation to their lands, principally destroy the intelligentsia, which cannot be allowed to assume any official positions, and in general make it impossible to create an intelligentsia, that is, access to schools and so forth. For example, so-called Polish peasants are to be assimilated, given the explanation, especially at this heated and fanatical time, that they are Ukrainians of the Latin rite who have been forcibly assimilated. The leaders to be destroyed. Jews to be isolated, eliminated from official positions in order to avoid sabotage, Russians and Poles all the more so. If there should be an insurmountable need to leave a Jew in the economic adminis- tration, place one of our militiamen over him and liquidate him for the slightest offense. Administrators of various branches can only be Ukrainians, never hostile aliens. Assimilation of Jews is excluded (3833/2/1/38, TsDAVOVU)."

"7. All citizens of the village (locality, collective farm, factory) are required to report to the People’s Militia command any concealed Red Army soldiers, NKVD agents, Jews, and secret informers, in short, anyone who does not belong the community and who came here as a result of the occupation of Ukrainian lands by Red Moscow, as well as citizens who were informers for the NKVD. . ..
10. Failure to carry out these instructions may be punished by application of revolutionary repressions, including the penalty of execution, particularly in the case of points 4 and 7. (3833/2/1/62, TsDAVOVU)"

Then the whitewash about not necessarily attacking Jews because  it might look bad.

"In April 1942 an OUN(B) conference passed a resolution that made a more specific
reference to Jews:

Despite [our] negative attitude toward Jews as a tool of Russian Bolshevik imperialism we do not think it expedient at the present moment in the international situation to take part in anti-Jewish actions in order to avoid becoming a blind tool in alien hands and turning the attention of the masses away from the main enemies. (“Nepovnyi tekst postanov II-oı̈ Konferentsiı̈,” 57/4/346/14, TsDAHOU)"

"Two months later OUN(B) leaders set about rewriting the record of their treatment of
Jews by ordering the preparation of:

c. Lists that would confirm that the Germans carried out anti-Jewish pogroms and liquidations by themselves, without the participation or help of the Ukrainian police, and instead, before carrying out the executions, urged the Jewish committee or the rogues themselves to confirm with their signatures the presence of the Ukrainian police and its involvement in the actions.

d. Material that would clearly confirm that Poles had initiated and taken part in anti-Jewish pogroms and at the same time that they had served as the hirelings and agents of the Germans in their struggle with Ukrainians. (“Nakaz Ch. 2/43, Oblasnym, okruzhnym i povitovym providnykam do vykonannia,” 3833/1/43/9, TsDAVOVU) (Figure 8 )"

"An OUN-UPA leader in the region addressed an appeal, in English, to the “brotherly Czech and Slovak nations.” “We have never edited nor spread nowhere, from our side, neither here, in Ukraine, nor the more in Slovakia any anti-Jewish leaflets,” the leader proclaimed. In all our political literature, underground revolutionary papers and proclamations, neither now, nor at the time of the German occupation you would seek in vain if only one word directed against the Jews. Like objections are nothing other as a sterling invective and lie. As well as we have never taken a part in any anti-Jewish actions. (Potichnyj 158)"

The paper has chapter and verse. Read it if you have the stomach.

Bandera wound up working for MI6 who dropped him, too crazy for them. The CIA worked with his associates. But then the West Germans picked Bandera up under Gehlen, the Nazi rehabed into West Germany intelligence. Unfortunately, Gehlen's organization was thoroughly penetrated by the Soviets, who killed Bandera after a lunch meet with West German intelligence.

So sad.

sidd
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 07:50:44 AM by sidd »

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #141 on: October 15, 2017, 08:05:27 AM »
For a look at attempted  rehablitation of Bandera, the OUN and the UPA by the current Ukrainian government:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/

These guys are Nazis and apologists for Nazis.

sidd


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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #142 on: October 15, 2017, 08:57:38 PM »
For a look at attempted  rehablitation of Bandera, the OUN and the UPA by the current Ukrainian government:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/

These guys are Nazis and apologists for Nazis.

sidd


For any that still are having difficulty recognizing the Kiev Regime's Nazi roots the above is a must read. FP can not simply be dismissed as a product of Putin's propaganda.


Every country likes to portray themselves and their history in the best possible light. Invoking memories of Bandera may serve the domestic market, but the rest of the world has little sympathy for the man, his ideology, or his methods.


Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #143 on: October 15, 2017, 10:27:21 PM »
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.


Have you followed Limi's case at all? I have not, but a few things have popped up.


Limi apparently was born in Uzbekistan, then part of the Soviet Union, yet he claims to be "Only a citizen of Ukrainian". Was he at some time naturalized as a Ukrainian?


He claims that his words have been distorted during translation from Tatar to Russian. Does this mean that he acknowledges that the speech would be illegal as it's translated, but would not be if heard and understood in the original Tatar? Was this Russian translation broadcast by the Tatar/Turkish TV station, or was this translation something that only showed up during his trial?


The US and others have called on Russia to "Free Umerov Immediately", yet it appears that he is free and at home awaiting appeal.


It's an interesting case as apparently the separatists, from Ukraine, have tried and found guilty a person who desires separation from the separatists. :o


I'd like to know just what it was that he said, in Tatar, in Russian, and in English.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmi_Umerov   and googling his last name.


The Unz Review, citing a Washington Post poll opines that the Tatars are about evenly split on the Crimean situation Their primary strong dislike appears to have been Obama, as opposed to Putin.
http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/


Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #144 on: October 16, 2017, 07:27:54 AM »
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.


Have you followed Limi's case at all? I have not, but a few things have popped up.

For starters, his name is  Ilmi, not Limi.
Which tells a lot about how informed you are about Crimean Tatars.

Secondly, don't you see the Russian hypocrisy of convicting Crimean Tatar Leader  Ilmi Umerov Of 'Separatism'" ?

After all, Russia had no problem with "separatism" when it came to territories of Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #145 on: October 16, 2017, 06:33:13 PM »
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

Svoboda and the History of Ukrainian Nationalism Pt. 1

! No longer available

and

How Right-Wing Nationalists Rose to Power in Ukraine (2/2)

! No longer available
Compare, compare, compare

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2017, 02:30:23 AM »
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

Svoboda and the History of Ukrainian Nationalism Pt. 1

! No longer available

and

How Right-Wing Nationalists Rose to Power in Ukraine (2/2)

! No longer available
Thanks!
Two very good background videos from from March 2014 - pre Odessa.


The comment sections are powerful, from all sides. Some calling others Nazis, others reveling in being a Nazi, yet others denying they're more than "center right".


One comment lead me to this, from Aug, 2014:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
An early, eerie look at Azov.


Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #147 on: October 17, 2017, 07:44:07 AM »
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

I watched both videos, and it seems to me that Dr. Per Anders Rudling is painting a balanced view of the situation in Ukraine (back in 2014).

I found it interesting that he suggested that Yanukovych may be the one responsible for the popularity of Svoboda between 2010 and 2012 ; since Yanukovych had full control of the media, he gave Svoboda (who had only have 1% of the vote in 2010) lots of air time, which helped take away voters from the mainstream parties. That seems to have worked, since Svoboda obtained 10% of the vote in 2012 and Yanukovych' Party of Regions remained in power during that time.

So the "right wing nationalist rise to power in Ukraine" in 2012 may very well have been orchestrated by Yanukovych, or his political adviser (wasn't that Paul Manafort ?).

Either way, Svoboda now holds only 6 seats (out of 450) in the Ukrainian Rada, after they suffered a devastating loss in the 2014 elections. So it is more like the "rise and fall of the Right-Wing Nationalists Power in Ukraine".

So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?

Shouldn't we be talking about the rise in right-wing nationalists parties in Europe (incidentally sponsored by Russia), which have a much larger percentage of the vote, and about that ultra-nationalist figure in the Kremlin who invades other countries, and that nationalist idiot in the White House who doesn't even denounce the Ku Klux Klan ?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:55:44 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2017, 08:03:18 AM »
"So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?"

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ?

"Shouldn't we be talking about ..."

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

sidd
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:11:17 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #149 on: October 17, 2017, 08:23:52 AM »
Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

A thread that has shown that there was no western support for Nazis in Ukraine.
And that there are not that as many Nazis in Ukraine as Russian propaganda suggested.
A thread that showed that NOBODY helped the Ukrainians when the Russians invaded their country.
A thread which you created because.... ?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 09:31:08 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.