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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2017, 09:54:42 AM »
You have your opinions on the evidence and others have others.

Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Parubiy was feted by McCain and Ryan
 
https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/john-mccain-and-paul-ryan-hold-good-meeting-veteran-ukrainian-nazi-demagogue-andriy

Another leading light of the People's Front is Arsen Avakov. Now that boy is describd in Wikipedia as drawing the ire of a rabbi:

"In November 2014, Ukraine's chief rabbi Yaakov Bleich condemned Avakov's appointment of Azov Battalion deputy commander and leading Patriot of Ukraine member Vadym Troyan as Kiev Oblast police chief, and demanded that "if the interior minister continues to appoint people of questionable repute and ideologies tainted with fascism and right-wing extremism, the interior minister should be replaced."

The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

I'm afraid that rebranding doesn't quite work any more. These guys are nazis and the USA under Obama openly got in bed with them after decades of covert support to Bandera's descendants.  So sad.

sidd



Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2017, 10:22:09 AM »
Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Yes. That was Svoboda. 4.7% of the vote.
You are going in circles, sidd.

But I see where you are going. You want to link one person that founded Svoboda to a more popular middle of the road party, and then sort of extend what that person said at one point to that entire party.

I get it.

What I don't get is WHY ?
WHY are you so determined to put the stamp of Nazi on the Ukrainian democracy ?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 10:28:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #152 on: October 17, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »
Quote
The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

Interesting, since both these batallions are funded by a jew (Ihor Kolomoyskyi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Are you now claiming that Ihor is a Nazi too ?
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Neven

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #153 on: October 17, 2017, 11:47:53 AM »
Interesting, since both these batallions are funded by a jew (Ihor Kolomoyskyi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Are you now claiming that Ihor is a Nazi too ?

Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2017, 07:50:42 AM »
Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).

So the choice for Kolomoyskyi is to be either a Nazi Jew (that would be a first), or a greedy person "who'll do anything to further their agenda " ?

No space for anything in between ?
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Neven

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #155 on: October 19, 2017, 10:05:18 AM »
Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).

So the choice for Kolomoyskyi is to be either a Nazi Jew (that would be a first), or a greedy person "who'll do anything to further their agenda " ?

No space for anything in between ?

That's how it looks to me, based on his resume.

From the Wikipedia link you posted:

Quote
Kolomoyskyi has used Privat's "quasi-military forces" to enforce hostile takeovers of companies, sending a team of "hired rowdies armed with baseball bats, iron bars, gas and rubber bullet pistols and chainsaws" to forcibly take over a Kremenchuk steel plant in 2006, and has used "a mix of phony court orders (often involving corrupt judges and/or registrars) and strong-arm tactics" to replace directors on the boards of companies he purchases stakes in. Kolomoyskyi was criticized by Mr Justice Mann in a court case in London involving an attempted hostile takeover of an oil company, with the judge stating that he had "a reputation of having sought to take control of a company at gunpoint in Ukraine" and that there were "strong grounds for doubting the honesty of Mr Kolomoyskyi"

In March 2015, after the dismissal of Oleksandr Lazorko, who was a protege of Kolomoyskyi, as a chief executive of UkrTransNafta, Ukraine's state-owned oil pipeline operator, men reported to be Kolomoyskyi's personal militia raided the UkrTransNafta's headquarters to expel the new government-appointed chief from the office. While Lazorko was in charge the state-owned pipelines had been delivering oil to an Kolomoisky-owned refinery in preference to competitors. According to Kolomoyskyi the raids were done with the aim to protect the companies from raiders and he related to it as a "PR-stunt to improve the ratings of smaller parties".

Kolomoyski is a prominent supporter of Ukraine's Jewish community and the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine. In 2010, he was appointed as the president of the European Council of Jewish Communities after promising the outgoing president he would donate $14 million, with his appointment being described as a "putsch"[48][49] and a "Soviet-style takeover" by other EJCJ board members. After several ECJC board members resigned in protest, Kolomyski quit the ECJC and, together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, founded the European Jewish Union.

To me this all sounds like a person who is willing to go any lengths to obtain what he deems as necessary to protect or further his interests (like all Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs). Someone with such a mindset probably doesn't think along lines of Jew/Nazi or my country/other country, like you and I do. You don't become a billionaire oligarch just like that. And extreme-right Jews have known to exist. Maybe he doesn't care so much about Azov's background, as long as they do things that further his agenda (like getting back his Crimean assets or whatever).
Compare, compare, compare

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2017, 06:42:09 PM »
The guy is an equal opportunity looter, grabbed billions from PrivatBank, while the auditor(PwC) turned a blind eye. PwC lost their license in Ukraine after that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE

Now he is involved in another shady deal being dragged throu UK courts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html

Just another crook.

sidd



TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2017, 07:49:16 PM »
The guy is an equal opportunity looter, grabbed billions from PrivatBank, while the auditor(PwC) turned a blind eye. PwC lost their license in Ukraine after that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE

Now he is involved in another shady deal being dragged throu UK courts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html

Just another crook.


sidd
Like Vito Corleone was just another Italian immigrant.


Ihor gives crooks a bad name.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2017, 04:39:17 AM »
Yeah. I did not do fact checking on Kolomoisky, but by the looks of it he is one of the reasons why Ukraine is considered so corrupt.

Poroshenko even went head-to-head with him in a crack-down on corrupt oligarchs in Ukraine :
http://www.politico.eu/article/star-wars-in-ukraine-poroshenko-vs-kolomoisky/

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2017, 07:07:29 AM »
It is a bit off-subject, but since 'corruption' came up as a major issue, the recent uprising in Ukraine deserves attention :
http://www.newsweek.com/war-against-corruption-ukraine-hots-690245

People in Ukraine are sick and tired of corruption in their nation.
They make it to the street, and protest. Especially the military veterans that fought the Russians in Donbass.

I wonder. Do people like Terry and Sidd still suggest that these people that are taking to the streets now are still Nazis (after all, there are many military among them), or is this latest uprising a true uprising of the people against corruption in their nation ?
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2017, 07:44:19 AM »
Well, i can't speak for "people like Terry," but if you wish to discuss Nazis in the Ukraine, I ask what this anti corruption demonstration has to do with the issue ?

If your point is that there are non Nazis in the Ukraine, I gladly concede.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2017, 08:10:31 AM »
Well, i can't speak for "people like Terry," but if you wish to discuss Nazis in the Ukraine, I ask what this anti corruption demonstration has to do with the issue ?

OK. The question is if in your opinion this recent uprising in Ukraine is further proof of
"western powers aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine" as you suggested the Maidan was, or if this uprising is (in your opinion) finally a real uprising of the people of Ukraine ?
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2017, 08:33:14 AM »
I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. Perhaps someone has evidence for or against Nazi participation ? If not, perhaps take it to another thread ?

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2017, 08:38:51 AM »
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:55:24 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2017, 09:01:45 AM »
Odd. I cannot find any post of mine that mentions Euromaidan, except one in the title of the link i posted

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/

But the excerpts i included had nothing to do with euromaidan, and were a historical look at Bandera.

sidd


Avalonian

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2017, 09:15:27 AM »
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?

I don't have any axe to grind here, but that's just bad reasoning, Rob. It reminds me of a "mock" (very mock indeed) undergraduate maths exam question I saw once: "Prove by induction that since you couldn't answer the first question, you won't be able to answer any of the other questions either."  ;)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2017, 09:29:44 AM »
Odd. I cannot find any post of mine that mentions Euromaidan, except one in the title of the link i posted

Oh. C'mon sidd. In the very first post in this thread you mention :

"detailing the long and sordid history of western collaboration with Nazis in the Ukraine:"

referencing this thread :
https://shadowproof.com/2014/08/09/cia-intervention-in-ukraine-has-been-taking-place-for-decades/

which suggests :

Quote
today’s EuroMaidan heroes of yesteryear were in fact trained by the Gestapo and took part in the Holocaust.

and

Quote
Of all the aspects of the current crisis over the NATO/Russia standoff in Ukraine, the determined intervention into Ukrainian political affairs by the United States has been the least reported, at least until recently.

and

Quote
But the current crisis in Ukraine, which pits a U.S.-backed coalition, which includes neo-Nazis, ...

Which suggests you really believe that Euromaidan was instigated by western backed neo-Nazis in Ukraine.

If you did not intend to mean that, than please please say so.

The question remains :
In your opinion is this recent uprising in Ukraine is further proof of
"western powers aiding Nazi groups in the Ukraine" as you suggested the Maidan was, or if this uprising is (in your opinion) finally a real uprising of the people of Ukraine ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2017, 10:22:40 AM »
Sidd said "I have no idea what this demonstration has to do with Nazis. "

So then why would you think that any previous uprising in Ukraine (specifically the EuroMaidan) has anything to do with Nazis (or western support thereof) ?

I don't have any axe to grind here, but that's just bad reasoning, Rob.

Not really. If sidd has no idea what the current demonstrations have to do with Nazis, then why does he believe the past demonstrations do ?
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Avalonian

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2017, 10:25:42 AM »
Because having studied one event in detail does not presuppose that s/he's studied all similar events in detail. 

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2017, 09:32:55 PM »
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2017, 10:41:02 PM »
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

sidd


sidd
At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end.


People that aren't convinced by swastikas won't be convinced by wolfs-angle flags. People that aren't convinced when a "parliamentarian" shouts out a few "Heil Hitlers" wont be convinced when he claims to be fighting for a "white Europe". People that witness a coup and insist that it's OK because the perpetrators made new laws to cover their crime are not serious people.


The rocks are there and plenty of them. At some point people are responsible for their own education.


Avalonian
Nice to hear the crisp peel of logic through the darkening miasma.


Terry




Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2017, 04:26:02 AM »
Because having studied one event in detail does not presuppose that s/he's studied all similar events in detail.

True. He probably did not have time to analyze the recent demonstrations. Which is fine.

But if he "studied one event in detail" then he should be able to present SOME evidence of Nazis in past demonstrations (like Euromaidan). Let alone any "western support" of them.

He didn't.

That's why I asked "why does he believe the past demonstrations do" have anything to do with Nazis ?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 07:18:47 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2017, 04:32:35 AM »
I believe that

1) There were Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests

2) Those nazis were the direct descentans of Bandera

I do not believe that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi. The shadowproof article makes no such claim either.

Seriously, that's it ?

Nobody claims that there were no Nazis in Euromaidan.
And neither does anyone claim that Euromaidan was exclusively Nazi.

Either way, it would be nice if you could provide some evidence of "Nazis participating in the Euromaidan protests". You know, some pictures, or videos with chants like "Jews will not replace us", or so, like the Charlotteville protesters...

And after that some evidence that these Nazis were "direct descentans of Bandera".
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 04:51:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2017, 04:39:47 AM »
People that aren't convinced by swastikas won't be convinced by wolfs-angle flags. People that aren't convinced when a "parliamentarian" shouts out a few "Heil Hitlers" wont be convinced when he claims to be fighting for a "white Europe". People that witness a coup and insist that it's OK because the perpetrators made new laws to cover their crime are not serious people.

Terry, could you kindly provide some evidence for the bolded claims ?
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2017, 05:59:26 AM »
"At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end."

Apparently not. I fully expect it to continue for ever, since historical revisionism never ends.

But as for me, I am done for the moment. I have stated my evidence for the thesis that Western powers have supported Nazis in the Ukraine since the second world war. I do not intend to repeat it. As and when I happen to find new evidence I shall post it.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #175 on: October 26, 2017, 08:02:38 AM »
"At some point the "bring me another rock" spoof has to end."

Apparently not. I fully expect it to continue for ever, since historical revisionism never ends.

Ah. Now the excuse is "historical revisionism" ?
I'm sorry, but Internet has a very good memory.

So far neither you nor Terry has come up with a 'rock'.
Just soap bubbles that were popped one by one.

Can you guys please consider the obvious, that maybe you have been ill-informed by Russian propaganda ?

Still waiting for some evidence of Nazis in Ukraine during the Euromaidan, western support of them, and a challenge to of the evidence presented, that Russian forces are the ones killing Ukrainian civilians in the Donbass.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 09:22:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #176 on: October 29, 2017, 03:20:33 AM »
I should remark that anti-semitism in Ukraine precedes the Nazis, Bandera was not the first by any means, though viler than most.  Symon Petliura was head of state  and army in 1919-1920 and his forces killed several tens of thousands of Jews. Apparently Petliura wasn't personally antisemitic (some of his best friencds were Jewish, no doubt ...) , but he stood aside: " "it is a pity that pogroms take place, but they uphold the discipline of the army." [Wikipedia]

As part of the the rehab of Ukrainian history, a statue has just been erected of Petilura. Quite unsurprisingly, some people object to that.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-honors-nationalist-whose-troops-killed-50000-jews/

sidd




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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2018, 01:15:32 PM »
And the same is happening in India. The hindu nationalists are already in power for several years. A little more population growth, and a little more water stress, and little more air pollution.... And you have a full scale nazi army, with nuclear arms, hundreds of millions strong.

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2018, 10:41:03 PM »
Atlantic Council now tells us there is a real problem with nazis in Ukraine
"Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence (And No, RT Didn’t Write This Headline)"

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline

Hefaistos

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #179 on: July 05, 2018, 07:40:35 PM »
Israel supplying weapons to Azov neo-nazi brigade:
"Avoz’s young founder and first military commander Andriy Biletsky is today a lawmaker in the Ukrainian parliament. ... Biletsky in 2014 wrote that “the historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led untermenschen.”

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine/24876

The Azov Battalion has received teams of American military advisors and high powered US-made weapons.
https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/04/07/the-us-is-arming-and-assisting-neo-nazis-in-ukraine-while-congress-debates-prohibition/

"U.S. corporate media spent years dismissing the role of neo-Nazis in Ukraine’s 2014 coup but it is suddenly going through a conversion, as Daniel Lazare reports."

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #180 on: July 06, 2018, 05:33:14 AM »
"Israel supplying weapons to Azov neo-nazi brigade:"

We are truly in a post reality world.

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #181 on: July 07, 2018, 06:23:58 PM »
Compare, compare, compare

Susan Anderson

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #182 on: July 07, 2018, 07:53:20 PM »
@Neven: We now have a one-party government, thanks to the divisiveness on the Democratic side that lost the last election. Democrats don't get a voice in Congress. They're in the minority. The majority owns everything now (elected by a minority, but they will amp up the cheating with a complicit Supreme Court as well).

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #183 on: November 20, 2018, 10:39:24 PM »
Blowback: US funded Nazis in the Ukraine train and ally with white supremacists in the USA:

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/17/blowback-us-funded-ukraine-neo-nazis-mentor-us-white-supremacists/

sidd

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #184 on: November 21, 2018, 03:26:10 AM »
Blowback: US funded Nazis in the Ukraine train and ally with white supremacists in the USA:

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/11/17/blowback-us-funded-ukraine-neo-nazis-mentor-us-white-supremacists/

sidd


I can't wait for the kid's camps they'll be opening at Huntington Beach.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/training-kids-to-kill-at-a-far-right-nationalist-summer-camp-in-ukraine/251845/

“We never aim guns at people,” instructor Yuri “Chornota” Cherkashin tells the children. “But we don’t count separatists, little green men, occupiers from Moscow, as people. So we can and should aim at them.”

Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #185 on: November 25, 2018, 09:58:53 PM »
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/

As the international outrage grows,

2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry


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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #186 on: November 25, 2018, 10:06:43 PM »
Well, this is what the Ukrainians are claiming, and how it seems to be getting reported in some of the Western press:

Quote
Russia opened fire on its navy ships in the Kirch Strait

https://www.axios.com/russia-ukraine-crimea-kerch-strait-blockade-6a87f120-3a20-40ad-ae40-4cedce5cad8c.html

Russia fires on and seizes Ukraine ships

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

Three Ukraine navy boats captured by Russian special forces following firefight

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-navy-russia-ship-fire-attack-crimea-artillery-war-kerch-strait-a8651321.html
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #187 on: November 26, 2018, 12:12:21 AM »
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/

As the international outrage grows,



2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry

Are you aware Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag ?

As are chemical attacks in Syria.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #188 on: November 26, 2018, 12:17:09 AM »
Former chief of Ukraine’s Security Service has confirmed allegations that snipers who killed dozens of people during the violent unrest in Kiev operated from a building controlled by the opposition on Maidan square.

Shots that killed both civilians and police officers were fired from the Philharmonic Hall building in Ukraine’s capital, former head of the Security Service of Ukraine Aleksandr Yakimenko told Russia 1 channel. The building was under full control of the opposition and particularly the so-called Commandant of Maidan self-defense Andrey Parubiy who after the coup was appointed as the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, Yakimenko added.

So the chief of the government’s security forces, the head of the opposition’s security forces, and the snipers themselves  all admit the snipers were killing both protesters and police.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/another-false-flag-terror-admission-snipers-in-the-2014-ukraine-protests/5618774

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #189 on: November 26, 2018, 01:04:17 AM »
Two possibly unrelated incidents:

1)
Al-Nustra has fired chemical weapons into a residential section of Aleppo injuring ~100 civilians. Syria asks the UN to step in.

https://www.rt.com/news/444829-syria-toxic-attack-un/

As the international outrage grows,



2)
A Ukrainian tugboat accompanying 3 Ukrainian war ships stops directly in the path of a RF coast guard ship, then claims it was "rammed". The RF uses an empty freighter to block Kerch Strait. Russia and Ukraine each claim to have been fired on by the other.

Similar incidents have been the cause of major conflicts in the past. Remember the Maine, remember the Gulf of Tonkin, remember the Lusitania.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-ukrainian-vessels-59405716

3)?
Episode #1 is no longer the biggest story in MSM, and a very embarrassing episode that certainly lends credibility to the proposition that it has been the rebels using chemical weapons in Syria all along may be swept under the rug.

3)?
If Russia's newly completed bridge is damaged or destroyed, President Putin's amazing ability to turn the other cheek will be sorely tested.

Terry

Are you aware Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag ?

As are chemical attacks in Syria.


Very much so. The Maine was also not the result of enemy fire and the Lusitania has been found to have been illicitly carrying arms and ammunition.
With this long history of false flags I'm particularly suspicious of naval events that lead to escalations.


I believe that the Sea of Azov events were initiated to bury the news of the chemical attacks by the rebels in Syria. Poroshenko's unpopularity at the polls, and his bid to declare martial law has been cited by a BBC stringer as another possibility for this provocation.


Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #190 on: November 26, 2018, 01:33:53 AM »
I don't speak the language, but this sounds suspiciously like the bridge of the Russian ship screaming at the Ukrainian tug to get the Hell out of the way.

The tug obviously swung in front of the Russian ship and stopped, and just as obviously caused the collision.

https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/2-1.mp4?_=1

The Texas accented English drawl (from ~16 sec.) coming from the "Ukrainian" tug makes me question just who was directing the whole operation.

If a Russian speaker could translate it might help.

Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #191 on: November 26, 2018, 01:40:30 AM »
I guess the thing is "what else could anyone expect than this kind of stupidity backed by a litany of lies and manipulation for 5 years plus?"

The martial law comes some four months ahead of a presidential election in Ukraine, with Poroshenko’s rating hitting rock bottom. According to a recent poll, only 7.8 percent of Ukrainians are ready to cast their ballots for the incumbent Ukrainian leader in the March vote. The race is being topped by former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko with some 18.5 percent of the vote. Poroshenko is even trailing behind a famous Ukrainian comedian, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who is in second place with 10,8 percent – despite the fact that he hasn't yet confirmed he was running.


https://www.rt.com/news/444854-ukraine-martial-law-russia-ships/
Quote
Shots that killed both civilians and police officers were fired from the Philharmonic Hall building in Ukraine’s capital, former head of the Security Service of Ukraine Aleksandr Yakimenko told Russia 1 channel.

Seems to me this was all clear and obvious when it happened, it was confirmed multiple times as was the murder of the people in the burning building in Crimea.

One day the leaks will also come out that it indeed was a Ukraine Buk missile that shot down MH17 as well I suspect. Some of us may be dead and buried by the time that happens and is finally accepted as the truth of it.
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #192 on: November 26, 2018, 04:54:02 AM »
Good research, Terry  :)
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #193 on: November 26, 2018, 10:36:01 AM »
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/25/russia-blocks-ukrainian-navy-from-militarizing-the-sea-of-azov/

The Ukrainian government under the oligarch Petro Poroshenko is in election campaign mode. That is one reason why it is launching new provocations against Russia. Yesterday Ukrainian forces occupied a town within the neutral zone between the government controlled part and the rebel held Donetsk area. Today the Ukrainian navy sent a tug and two small gun boats, recently acquired from the U.S. Coast Guard, to pass through the Kerch Strait into the Sea of Azov.
When the ships entered Russian waters without announcing their intent, a Russian coast guard ship rammed and damaged the tug. The two gun boats escaped but did not pass the strait.With Crimea back in Russian hands the Kerch Strait is solely Russian territory. The Treaty on the Legal Status of the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait, signed in 2003 by Russia and the Ukraine, provides that military ship entry into the sea is only allowed with mutual consent. Ukraine disputes the status of the sea in an arbitration court. (For a legal discussion of the case see 1, 2, 3.)
The Ukrainian government, urged on by the U.S., wants to establish a new military harbor in the Sea of Azov. Two of its navy ships, a rescue vessel and a tug, passed through the street on September 23. In October the Russian government warned that it will not allow any further militarization of the sea. Some U.S. hawks even want NATO ships to enter the Sea of Azov. The Sea of Azov has a maximum depth of 7 meters. Typical U.S. frigates have a draft of 10+ meters. What NATO or U.S. ship could even go there? As Russia firmly controls the sole entry point into the sea and can easily attack any ship in the Sea of Azov from within its borders the idea is incredibly stupid.

The Kerch Strait is now blocked by a large cargo ship the Russians anchored under the new Kerch bridge.
 Another POV:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-blocks-three-ukrainian-navy-ships-from-entering-sea-of-azov/?intcmp=notifications

The portion of the Black Sea where the confrontation unfolded is a swirl of contested borders and disputed rights to access through the strait.

After annexing the Crimean Peninsula in 2014, Russia claimed territorial waters off the peninsula’s coast that Ukraine does not recognize.

Ukraine claims a right to patrol in the entire Sea of Azov under a treaty with Russia designating the sea as shared territorial water. The treaty was signed long before relations curdled after street protesters overthrew a pro-Russian leader of Ukraine in 2014.

Ukraine says Russia’s actions have violated the treaty, as well as the U.N. Law of the Sea, which should guarantee access through the strait. Russian officials said the Ukrainian ships were manoeuvring dangerously, requiring the strait to be temporarily closed for safety.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in a statement carried by Ukrainian media, came down on Ukraine’s side in the dispute. “NATO fully supports the sovereignty of Ukraine and its territorial integrity, including its rights to navigation in its own territorial waters,” said the statement, which was carried in newspaper Ukrainska Pravda.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 11:40:09 AM by Red »

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #194 on: November 26, 2018, 11:42:16 AM »

One day the leaks will also come out that it indeed was a Ukraine Buk missile that shot down MH17 as well I suspect. Some of us may be dead and buried by the time that happens and is finally accepted as the truth of it.
[/quote]

"TWA Flight 800 (TWA 800), a Boeing 747-100, exploded and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean near East Moriches, New York, on July 17, 1996. (...) Initial witness descriptions led many to believe the cause of the crash was a bomb or surface-to-air missile attack."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800

"Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that crashed on 17 July 2014; it is believed to have been shot down with a surface-to-air missile."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_A ... _Flight_17

18 years exactly
 
https://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1732
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #195 on: November 26, 2018, 10:49:26 PM »
HHI
There is a lot of information re. the Kerch Straits episode than we're privy to.

When and how was the Izunrud damaged?
There is a gaping hole high on her starboard quarter. Far too high above water to have been the result of a collision with the very low freeboard tug boat, and I think too high to have been he result of a collision with the tiny 54 ton gunboats

The only Ukrainian ship in the Azov Sea large enough to have caused such damage is the Donbass, presently listed as a "Command Vessel", but originally the Soviet repair ship PM-9. The Donbass has been based in the Sea of Azov since September 23 when the tug Korets also passed through the strait.
The Korets was the possibly American captained tug that swerved in front of the Don and sustained damage to her starboard quarter.
AFAIK there has been no mention of the Donbass WRT yesterday's actions.

Why is no one else mentioning English broadcasts from the Ukrainian tug at he time of the collision?
Russians, Ukrainians, Americans and other governments must have gone through the audio files from the time of the collision with a fine toothed comb. Why isn't anyone mentioning this anomaly?
I'll wait one more day before mentioning it at some sites that are reporting on the incident, but the silence from all sides seems strange.

https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fliveuamap.com%2Fpics%2F2018%2F11%2F25%2F21747727_0.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fliveuamap.com%2Fen%2F2018%2F25-november-photo-russian-rfcgs-354-izumrud-a-rubin-class&docid=K_j6MMoQVrxMZM&tbnid=TS1ajucbGXLoyM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1_-mSg_PeAhUmTd8KHcMyAdgQMwg9KAAwAA..i&w=1024&h=768&bih=431&biw=877&q=RFCGS%20Izumrud%20(354)&ved=0ahUKEwj1_-mSg_PeAhUmTd8KHcMyAdgQMwg9KAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_naval_base_(Ukraine)

http://tass.com/politics/1022937

Terry

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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #196 on: November 27, 2018, 05:28:52 AM »
Would the following pass as reasonable examples for potential sound allegations of "warmongering" by the Atlantic Council?

Atlantic Council Verified account @AtlanticCouncil
If the West does not react—and if Western media facilitate this by focusing on sideshows like "Martial Law"—then Putin will have won another gamble, says John Herbst, a former US ambassador to Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/atlanticcouncil/status/1067086323008311296

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/q-a-russia-attacks-ukraine-again-how-should-ukraine-nato-and-the-west-respond

More from Anders Åslund of the Atlantic Council on Twitter and some responses

Quote
    What is the EU going to do about the illegal Russian blockade of the international Sea of Azov? Instant action is called for! @FedericaMog@JunckerEU@eucopresident
    — Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 25, 2018

    Everything suggests that Russia slowly takes one step after the other to block the Azov Sea off from Ukraine & international shipping. The West & NATO should react sharply before it is too late. https://t.co/kZMn2XTEls
    — Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 25, 2018

    Practical risks aside, it would be illegal without Russian permission according to the 2003 treaty between Russia and Ukraine that declared Azov to be “internal waters” and only guaranteed freedom of navigation for RUS and UKR military vessels. https://t.co/CjTOyfcmet https://t.co/VKxbcACZOc
    — Yaroslav Trofimov (@yarotrof) November 26, 2018

    That is what people said when the allies declared war on Hitler after his invasion of Poland.
    — Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 25, 2018

    By the end of the day, not one single US official has said a word against Russia's aggression in Ukraine. That can only mean that they were strictly ordered by POTUS not to do so. Why is POTUS supporting Russian aggression in Ukraine?!
    — Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 26, 2018

    Side show? I thought Western support of Ukraine was about democratic values, not geopolitical machinations. I very genuinely did. https://t.co/eQXHNNSkS5
    — Leonid Ragozin (@leonidragozin) November 26, 2018

    Just back from Kyiv I found that disgracefully, @washingtonpost has published an absurd article "Ukraine’s post-Lenin identity crisis," as if Ukrainians miss Lenin monuments. Needless to say, written by Moscow correspondent @antontroian. https://t.co/4yANtG98n3
    — Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 18, 2018

    Im not trying to teach anyone, let alone Ukrainians. Just curious why a Swede who lives in DC and goes to occasional conferences in five-star hotels should lecture a journalist, whether he be based in Moscow or on Jupiter, who’s gone and spoken to real people about their views 🤷🏻‍♂️
    — Shaun Walker (@shaunwalker7) November 18, 2018

    Anders, have you considered that these correspondents you so despise talk to a much broader range of Ukrainians than you? Or you think only nationalists/liberals/reformers worth listening to? & how can you say that how Ukr deals with Soviet legacy/nation building is unimportant?!
    — Shaun Walker (@shaunwalker7) November 18, 2018

    Anders, the point isn’t that Ukrainians are necessarily longing for Lenin - it’s that decommunization has created a void that remains as yet unfilled, as evidenced by Anton’s talks with ordinary Ukrainians. Which his living in Moscow has nothing to do with
    — max seddon (@maxseddon) November 18, 2018

    Saying Ukrainians are still figuring out what to put on town squares in place of Lenin statues is *not* suggesting all Ukrainians miss Lenin monuments. Nor is that quote.
    — Paul Sonne (@PaulSonne) November 18, 2018

    Have I got bad news for @anders_aslund https://t.co/uovWUY88Qi
    — Alexey Kovalev (@Alexey__Kovalev) November 20, 2018


Fabrice Deprez  @fabrice_deprez
Meanwhile, "Ukrainians view Brezhnev more positively than Bandera" 47% of positive opinions for the Soviet leader, but just 36% for the head of the Ukrainian nationalist organization
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:04:57 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #197 on: November 27, 2018, 08:59:52 AM »
HHI
There is a lot of information re. the Kerch Straits episode than we're privy to.

When and how was the Izunrud damaged?
There is a gaping hole high on her starboard quarter. Far too high above water to have been the result of a collision with the very low freeboard tug boat, and I think too high to have been he result of a collision with the tiny 54 ton gunboats

With all that wild bullying against the Ukrainian tug-boat and shooting at Ukrainian Navy vessels, I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian "Don" ship accidentally crashed into the "Izumrod"...

Here : watch at 2:28 :



Bunch of morons...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:04:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #198 on: November 27, 2018, 05:14:33 PM »
Following on material about the Atlantic Council, not sure where else this should go:

An article by Atlantic Council CEO Frederick Kempe advises MBS how he can divert the bad publicity caused by Khashoggi's hideous murder – “refocus Western thinking,” as Kempe puts it – to avoid weakening his alliance with the US. That alliance is desperately needed, of course, to face the “growing role of China and Russia,” as well as Iran.

The murder was “brutal, foolish and irresponsible,” Kempe allows, and American and European outrage "understandable," but it's a dangerous time for America and its allies, so pesky values like human life and press freedom can be put on a backburner and make way for strategic interests. Apparently, it's all just a "Game" to the Atlantic Council folks.

Quote
November 25, 2018
Saudi War Games
By Frederick Kempe

[...] In my view, the biggest prize remains keeping on course a shift from previous Saudi policies that ultimately resulted in some 3,000 deaths on 9-11 and the creation of Al-Qaeda, ISIS and the financing of mosques and schools globally that have advanced a more austere and extreme form of Islam. As long as Saudi Arabia is the custodian of the religion's two holiest mosques, its religious direction will be decisive.
 
Though it is still possible the opaque Saudi system of governance will bring about a leadership transition at the top, Middle East officials I consulted this week consider it far more likely that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman survives and, at age 33, even serves for another few decades. If that’s so, US leaders must respond and navigate accordingly. 

[...] The good news this past week is that, under international pressure, coalition partners Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have largely ceased offensive operations in Yemen providing hope for an end to the world’s worst humanitarian catastrophe. UN Special Envoy to Yemen Martin Griffiths spent the latter part of the week in the country laying the ground for peace talks in Sweden.   
 
Though Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman can’t undo the Khashoggi crime, he could refocus Western thinking over time by redoubling his efforts to reform Saudi society, not only providing women more rights but also releasing from prison the activists he recently arrested.
 
For starters, Western and Middle Eastern leaders need to avoid worst outcomes in the region. Even better would be to leverage the crisis to achieve some good. 

Frederick Kempe is president and chief executive officer of the Atlantic Council.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/saudi-war-games


Activists of far-right parties in front of the presidential administration headquarters in Kiev, Ukraine November 26, 2018 © Reuters / Gleb Garanich 


Siding with fascism: Western ideologues pose greater threat to the West's security than ISIS
John Wight has written for a variety of newspapers and websites, including the Independent, Morning Star, Huffington Post, Counterpunch, London Progressive Journal, and Foreign Policy Journal. 

In losing his mind so, Mr Aslund reminds us that the Atlantic Council is an organization stacked with people for whom rationality is a vice and irrationality a virtue. Perhaps such a state of affairs might even be funny if not for the influence this particular think tank wields in Western foreign policy circles; influence that is on a par with an arsonist being taken seriously when it comes to fire prevention.

It also comes as no surprise that the Atlantic Council’s financial sponsors amount to a rogue’s gallery of global corporations, oil companies, banks and financial institutions, governments and various other entities of such nature. It confirms that the relationship between global capitalism and Western imperialism is one forged in hell – or at least it does for those nations and people forced to exist at the sharp end of its egregious role around the world when it comes to fomenting conflict, crises, carnage and instability.

Ukraine is a prime example of what I mean. Lest anyone forget, the last democratically elected government of Ukraine to enjoy a mandate covering the entire country was unceremoniously toppled by a violent coup at the start of 2014. It was a coup supported by Western ideologues such as Anders Aslund, and one in which neo-Nazis were in the vanguard on the ground.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 03:59:29 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« Reply #199 on: November 30, 2018, 08:20:59 AM »
Lurk, you forgot to include the link to the RT article where you obtained that drivel about that "coup" in Ukraine.

Did you think including that link would be a too obvious sign of your pro-Putin bias ?
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