Ukraine, Nazis and western support

[TerryM]

Lurk, you forgot to include the link to the RT article where you obtained that drivel about that "coup" in Ukraine.

Did you think including that link would be a too obvious sign of your pro-Putin bias ?

Do you still insist that the violent ouster of an elected head of state shouldn't be referred to as a "coup"? Does Dark Moses propose that we rewrite all of our dictionaries?


Words matter, and words have definitions that can't be changed whenever they don't fit within your biased world view.


Terry

[Rob Dekker]

And you are their HERO, Rob. These people would be nowhere without you.

Well look at that.

Now I'm not just responsible for inciting WW III, but also personally responsible for putting villains like Putin and bin Salman in their place of power ?

Imagine what I could do for you, Neven

[TerryM]

The News-Weak Magazine, wanting to present 3 unique perspectives on the Ukrainian situation, enlists the aid of 3 different Atlantic Council Members.
Quite similar to asking 3 NASCAR employees their thoughts on pending legislation concerning noise pollution during sporting events.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/447578-newsweek-atlantic-council-russia/

News-Weak continues it's tradition of weak journalism bolstered by strong propaganda.
Terry

[Red]

Finally, a clear and convincing — and unrefuted — case can now be presented to the public, as to precisely whom the guilty party was, that downed the MH17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on 17 July 2014, and why it was done. The complete case, which will be fully documented here, displays unequivocally who needed the MH17 murders (of 298 persons) to be perpetrated. This mass-murder was done for one leader’s very pressing obsession. For him, it simply had to be done, and done at that precise time.

The full MH17 case will be presented here, to be judged by the public, because no court of law which possesses the power to bring this (or even any) case on the MH17 murders, is willing to do so, and because the evidence in this 17 July 2014 case has become overwhelming, and is unrefuted. This evidence is accepted by both sides. But it still remains effectively hidden from the publics in the United States and its allied countries. (The present news-report, which is the first ever to present this entire case, is submitted to all news-media in English-speaking countries, so that any of them that wishes to provide its audience access to this uncontested and conclusive evidence in the MH17 case can do so, by publishing this article. Any of them that won’t, don’t want their audience to have access to the conclusive evidence in this case, because this article is being made available to all of them to publish, free of charge; so, there is no other reason not to publish it.)

The complete evidence will be described, and all of the conclusive evidence is linked-to, proving who perpetrated, and who demanded, the shoot-down on 17 July 2014 of the Malaysian airliner MH17.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/12/31/mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven/

[kassy]

Quite a sickening piece. I am dutch but missed most of this because there was other stuff on my mind. Too bad i can´t peek into Ruttes head. At some point it must have been clear who did this but then you have to hide it and shit on 196 of your citizens.

Also entirely ignored in the Ukrainain team’s ‘explanation’ of the event is why Ukraine’s air-traffic control had guided the MH17’s pilot to fly over the conflict-zone where Ukraine’s civil war was being waged and where Ukraine’s war-planes were bombing. The MH17’s pilot was instructed by Ukraine’s air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become normal during the civil war. This was highly abnormal, and it doomed the MH17. Clearly, only Ukraine’s Government could, and did, do that — change the route, and for only that one plane.

I hope the relatives will pursue some further action in the civil court just to see if it would wake up anyone in this country.

[wili]

Harvard Library lists Greanville Post as a fake news site...just sayin'

[Red]

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/worst-examples-fake-news-media/
Take a look at the rundown below and note that these are just some of the worst — the mainstream media has spread quite a bit of fake news over the years. We’ve included an eighth example from Clinton’s campaign and cronies as a bonus.

So just to be sure I checked and the western journal isn't on the "list".
http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

and from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Western_Journal
Western Journalism features “conservative, libertarian, free market and pro-family writers and broadcasters.”[7] and seeks to provide “God-honoring” content.

From wikipedia on wikipedia: Wikipedia has been criticized for exhibiting systemic bias, for presenting a mixture of "truths, half truths, and some falsehoods",[18] and for being subject to manipulation and spin in controversial topics

[wili]

Ah, whataboutism. How original! 

[oren]

How can anyone be convinced by this article that reads like a pile of propaganda? I honestly tried and failed to read through the repetitive hammering of the main theme, with so little actual claims to back it up.

[sidd]

US nazis flock to ukraine:

https://triad-city-beat.com/the-lost-boys-of-ukraine/

sidd

[TerryM]

^^
Raman!!


That is one hell of a link sidd!  - Thanks
It demands a read by everyone questioning the MSM's position regarding the Ukraine and Russia's reaction to the Nazi coup that both Canadian and American governments support.


Is the much lauded FBI finally coming to the realization that these Nazi's need to be spied upon, infiltrated and locked up?


Shocking!
Terry

[nanning]

"Is the much lauded FBI finally coming to the realization that these Nazi's need to be spied upon, infiltrated and locked up? "

[sarc]
No and that's not surprising Terry because in an upside down world the 'nazi's' are the good guys. e.g. XR and FFF are on the police terrorist list in the U.K. That is consistent with 'nazi's' being the good guys.
[/sarc]
Who are we kidding? Ourselves.

The humans fighting the righteous causes are prosecuted and murdered whilst the evil violent humans without a conscience rise to the top and are 'succesful' and get away with murder. Lies are more important than truth. Everyone by himself in stead of together and sharing. Upside down.

All pyramids should be levelled.

[TerryM]

^^
Ramen!!
Terry

[kassy]

All pyramids should be levelled.

You forgot metaphorical...or so i hope. 

[nanning]

I left that out on purpose kassy.
Gizeh? What a monstrosity of a memorial to Insanity and Suffering. Equality? Freedom? Rights? Humanist?
Almost all hierarchies are bad in my understanding.

[TerryM]

I left that out on purpose kassy.
Gizeh? What a monstrosity of a memorial to Insanity and Suffering. Equality? Freedom? Rights? Humanist?
Almost all hierarchies are bad in my understanding.

Without some form of hierarchy we're left with anarchy.
Is anarchy a preferable choice in a crowded, armed world?


"All Animals are Equal - but some are More Equal"
Was that Orwell, or a Lion King?


Terry

[nanning]

We are living with far too many people together. People don't personally know all the others anymore. People don't know their leaders.

This is an unnatural situation and faulty human organisation (tribe/grouping). How to best implement an unnatural system? I don't know but I am not interested in the answer. It is insanity every which way. No offence. Just the view from living nature/reality/alien perspective.

That quote is from Orwell's "Animal Farm" if I'm not mistaken,  which, in a completely unnatural setting as a mirror to civilisation, explores insanities and temptations/corruption in hierarchies.

"King" is an insane concept (leader-of-the-conquering-terrorists-and-owner-of-land-and-people), as is "Lion King". Please leave the animals out of human insane fantasies . Reality doesn't work like that.

[TerryM]

^^
nanning.
I spent hours on a response, then lost it in the wilds of the interweb. There really wasn't much in it of substance in it.


Have a Great Day!
Terry

[nanning]

Thank you so much for your efforts, openness and response to my views Terry.
My experience is that even when I've lost something after a lot of thinking and formulating, the patterns are still in my brain and the effort is not lost.
A great day to you as well!

[sidd]

This could go in the war thread but it is really more apposite here:

Kuzmenko at IERES(!): west trains nazis

[the exclamation point is because the Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian Studies is an offshoot of the very neolib george washington university and it is rare to see frank opinion from that source. Especially as late as september last year.]

"Ukraine’s premier military education institution and a major hub for Western military assistance to the country, has been home to Centuria"

" led by individuals with ties to Ukraine’s internationally active far-right Azov movement ... current and former officer cadets of the NAA now serving in the Armed Forces of Ukraine ... appeared in photos giving Nazi salutes "

"members of the group have apparently had access to American military trainers ... As recently as April 2021, ... participated in joint military exercises with France, the UK, Canada, the US, Germany, and Poland."

"Centuria has announced several mobilizations, calling on ideologically aligned members of the AFU to seek transfer to specific units where the group’s members serve. "

"The group has strong ties to Ukraine’s far-right Azov movement, has promoted Azov to NAA cadets, and credibly claimed that its members lectured in the Azov Regiment of the National Guard, the military wing of the Azov movement."

"Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense stated that it does not screen those entering the military or military cadets for extremist views and ties ... None of the Western governments contacted—the US, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany—vet Ukrainian training recipients for extremist views and ties."

"the author monitored and documented Centuria’s changing online presence from early 2019. Since that time, Centuria has moved toward increased secrecy"

"The West’s input into the IPSC is immense. With the support of the U.S. Government, Yavoriv Combat Training Center was established in 2016 within the IPSC."

[Yavoriv was blown up recently by the russians ...]

" The group has used several types of banners. One features the white nationalist Sonnenkreuz and Wolfsangel symbols "

“Centuria is shaping a first-of-its-kind military elite whose goal is to attain the highest ranks inside the Armed Forces [of Ukraine] in order to become an authoritative core able to hold significant influence within the structure of the Armed Forces,”

"Centuria stated its support for “right patriots, nationalists, conservatives and Christians currently defending the streets of Kyiv from perverts from the LGBT movement and their left-liberal sympathizers.”"

"the group announced that active-duty servicemen of the AFU could now serve under the “direct command of Centuria officers”  ... The following AFU units were listed: the 15th Mountain-Assault Sevastopol Battalion, the 24th Mechanized Brigade, and the 35th Naval Infantry Brigade."

"the list of AFU units where Centuria officers were allegedly ready to take soldiers under their wing ballooned to eight: the 10th Mountain Assault Brigade, the 128th Mountain Assault Brigade, the 35th Naval Infantry Brigade, the 36th Naval Infantry Brigade, the 16th Combat Support Regiment, the 55th Artillery Brigade, the 24th Mechanized Brigade, and the 25th Airborne Brigade."

"accepting applications for the 24th Mechanized Brigade. In April ... Centuria was accepting applications for the 406th Artillery Brigade. "

https://www.illiberalism.org/far-right-group-made-its-home-in-ukraines-major-western-military-training-hub/

sidd

[Florifulgurator]

From a German interview with Dmytro Yarosh, 2014:

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Not only Moscow's propaganda considers the Right Sector to be fascist. Is Hitler your role model?

Jarosh: He shed so much blood from my people, I can't find anything positive to say about him. German National Socialism is an enemy for Ukrainian nationalists.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-interview-mit-rechter-sektor-kommandeur-jarosch-a-965498.html
(my emph.)

FYI:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Yarosh

Dmytro Anatoliyovych Yarosh (Ukrainian: Дмитро Анатолійович Я́рош; born 30 September 1971)[2] is a Ukrainian activist, politician, nationalist and military commander who is [was] the main commander of the Ukrainian Volunteer Army. From 2013 to 2015, he led the Right Sector nationalist organisation.[3][4][5][6] In late 2015, he withdrew from the Right Sector.[7] From 2014 until 2019, Yarosh served as a People's Deputy of Ukraine [=member of parliament (*)]. In February 2016, he started a new organisation called Governmental Initiative of Yarosh (DIYA).[8]

In the 2014 Ukrainian presidential election, Yarosh received 127,772 votes (0.7% of the total).[9] He was elected to the Verkhovna Rada in the 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election from a single-seat constituency in the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast by winning 29.76% of the votes.[10][11] He lost the seat in the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election.
(...)

In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election DIYA joined a united party list with the political parties of Svoboda, Right Sector and National Corps.[34] Yarosh himself was placed 3rd on the party list.[34] But in the election they won not enough votes to clear the 5% election threshold and thus no parliamentary seats.[35] The party did also not win a single-mandate constituency parliamentary seat.[36]

On November 2, 2021, Yarosh said on social media he had been appointed Adviser to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valerii Zaluzhnyi.[37] In response to a (December 2021) request by Ukrayinska Pravda the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine refused to disclose details of its alleged cooperation with Yarosh citing the confidentiality of the information requested.[38] Prior to this request the (army) post of public advisers had been dissolved and Yarosh had thus been dismissed from his post.[38]
(...)

(my correction, not verified )
(*) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Deputy_of_Ukraine

[Neven]

What is your point, Flori?

[Florifulgurator]

What is your point, Flori?

The Ukrainian ultra rightwing nationalist doesn't like Nazis. Despite Bandera 
Nazi = German abbreviation for Nationalsozialist.

[Florifulgurator]

This could go in the war thread but it is really more apposite here:

Kuzmenko at IERES(!): west trains nazis
(...)

The present thread started by sidd can be seen as part of Putin's war preparation.

Also from IERES: https://www.illiberalism.org/unexpected-friendships-cooperation-of-ukrainian-ultra-nationalists-with-russian-and-pro-kremlin-actors/

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/mounting-evidence-canada-trained-ukrainian-extremists-gov-t-needs-to-be-held-to-account-experts-1.5879303

However, Kuzmenko said he does not think there is any reason “why it should be hard to openly admit that these forces… [are] very much far-right and that they (the Azov movement) are also valiantly fighting Russia whose brutality [and] crimes dwarf …the danger the far-right pose to Ukraine.”

High time to let Putin himself speak his mind here... (Starting 0:42)





BTW, since Putin mentioned Stepan Bandera (of course)...
Did you know that Leon Trotsky and Nestor Makhno also were Ukrainian?

I think they better represent the Ukrainian political (sub)consciousness than Bandera.
And this is why Ukraine is so different to Russia, and why Putin hates and fears it.

Makhno was a Ukrainian anarchist revolutionary and the commander of the Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine from 1917 to 1921. Makhno's hometown Huliaipole is at the battle front in the south east.

The third month of the "three-day special operation" of Russia's eight-year war against Ukraine, which has lasted for almost four hundred years, continues. (...)
(...)

With Father Makhno on the flags
 
Huliaipole area is the territory of the former volnytsia[2] of father Makhno. Even children in the Zaporizhzhia region know this. Because we study our history and honor our heroes. And the world-famous Huliaipole native, anarchist Nestor Makhno - a prominent figure, rightfully has his place in the pantheon of our national heroes. He is the son of his land. Nestor Makhno is one of the many people from Huliaipole who, during the turbulent times of the revolution of the early twentieth century, did not want to obey the invaders. Thanks to his charisma, Father Makhno was able to inspire, lead and captivate fellow countrymen. With his parental attitude towards ordinary people, subordinates began to call their commander a Father.

In the Huliaipole area, he created a viable republic of free peasants. (...)
(...)

[2] runaway serfs who fled from the landlords and settled on the outskirts of the Muscovite Russia and Poland.

https://decentralization.gov.ua/en/news/14913

[sidd]

More history on right wing in Ukraine:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1528023220225466374

sidd

[Neven]

Flori's heroes from Azovstal:

[Florifulgurator]

Flori's heroes from Azovstal:
(...)

So what? When some of your heroes from the Wagner mercenaries got caught, there would be similar pictures.

Funny how this channel sports Joseph Stalin as a logo:
He had a pact with Hitler, and before that he had starved a few million people to a slow death in the Holodomor genocide or deported them to the Gulag camps. That, plus the Great Terror, made some Ukrainians prefer Hitler as the lesser evil. History conveniently glossed over by Putinists. If Hitler hadn't betrayed Stalin, the Ruscists wouldn't feign a problem with Nazis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Frontier_Treaty
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massacre

[Neven]

Flori once again resorts to double whataboutism because he can't stay on-topic.

[Florifulgurator]

A Russian soldier caught near Mariupol in 2015:
https://mobile.twitter.com/euromaidanpress/status/610133152862867458


Off-topic of course, but we don't have a thread on "Ukraine, Nazis and Ruscist support".

[Florifulgurator]

[...] Joseph Stalin [...]:
He had a pact with Hitler, and before that he had starved a few million people to a slow death in the Holodomor genocide or deported them to the Gulag camps. That, plus the Great Terror, made some Ukrainians prefer Hitler as the lesser evil. History conveniently glossed over by Putinists. [...]

While this thread is about the present, on cannot ignore the past to understand it. Ukraine is an essential element of European history - starting as the bread basket of ancient Greece.

If you don't want to look into the nauseating bloody details, a look at Stalinist propaganda rethoric can already be quite eye-opening. (Excellent examples in German, like "friedliebend", can be seen in the Museum of German history in Bonn. Some had been repeated almost verbatim in recent Russian TV shows.)

The most eminent scholar on the WW2 history of Ukraine is Timothy Snyder. From the recent Deutsche Welle Global Media Forum in Bonn, Germany:
https://www.dw.com/en/timothy-snyder-compares-russian-grain-blockade-to-stalins-starvation-tactics/a-62217629

[...]At the time, Stalin's terror regime also had an impact on Germany's Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler, who invaded Soviet Ukraine during World War II.

"The famine in 1933 and 1932 was also an inspiration to Adolf Hitler, whose main goal was to control the fertile agricultural territory of Ukraine," Snyder said at the conference.[...]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlands

[..]Snyder seeks to show that interaction between the Nazi and Soviet regimes is crucial to telling the story of this bloodshed. He posits that early Soviet support for the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazi occupation was followed by an unwillingness to aid the uprising because the Soviets were willing to have the Nazis eliminate potential sources of resistance to a later Soviet occupation. Snyder states that this is an example of interaction that may have led to many more deaths than might have been the case if each regime had been acting independently.[...]

Circling back to the thread topic: I believe this suppressed historical memory is the psychological force (projection, denial) behind today's insane Ruscist rhethoric. (It eerily reminds me of those old Nazi uncles I knew here in West Germany, Waffen SS veterans whose miserable brains were locked into blaming "the Jews" for everything, until the end of lifes.)

[WildFit]

A Russian soldier caught near Mariupol in 2015:
https://mobile.twitter.com/euromaidanpress/status/610133152862867458


Off-topic of course, but we don't have a thread on "Ukraine, Nazis and Ruscist support".

This kind you find everywhere worldwide, cheap cherrypicking IMHO. Look at the U.S. of A and you'l find plenty of those.

Doesn't make it any better but often they're young and stupid, doing anything to belong to a group and impress some.

[Neven]

Let's assume that the images posted by Flori - which date from 8 years ago - aren't fake and portray what he says they do: A Russian Neonazi. Fine, Russia has Neonazis, Germany has Neonazis, the US has Neonazis, they're everywhere.

The big difference between Neonazis in Ukraine and elsewhere, besides the fact that there seem to be so many of them in Ukraine, is that instead of being marginalised and suppressed, they're actually pretty much free to do whatever they want in Ukraine, like committing human rights abuses up to murder (or even mass murder in Odessa 2015) against journalists, opposition politicians and anyone considered pro-Russian. Not only aren't they brought to justice, they are actually integrated into the army and police force. Which is probably why a lot of Neonazis from Russia and Belarus have moved to Ukraine. It's so much more fun than at home, where people spit on them and the police gives them a hard time when they engage in criminal activities.

Now tell me, where are Neonazis accepted at such a level? Nowhere, because Ukraine is a special place when it comes to poverty and corruption, which are the breeding grounds for fascist brownshirts. And there's an obvious history with being on the wrong side of history. Add a little bit of US neocon poison into the mix, and you have a nice, little movement with power and influence, as seen before with the Mujahedeen, Contras, Al Qaeda and ISIS.

Which is why, yet again, the president of Ukraine has recently posted images on his social media of Ukrainian soldiers wearing Nazi insignia (unless it's fake news, which it wasn't last time). I can post several images and videos of Ukrainian Neonazis every single day. Does Flori really want to play that silly game?

[Neven]

And if Timothy Snyder is indeed the 'most eminent scholar on the WW2 history of Ukraine', I feel sorry for that discipline, because what I've seen and read from the guy is so biased and imbued with activism, that I don't feel he is much of a source of objective information. He's a Russophobic Cold War relic. A bit like Flori's uncles blaming the Jews for everything.

Happy Operation Barbarossa Day! Slava Ukraini!

[uniquorn]

This tit for tat is going nowhere.

[Neven]

This tit for tat is going nowhere.

Like I said, it's a silly game. But Flori tries to play that game to make the argument that Ukraine doesn't have a problem with Neonazism/far-right extremism/radical nationalism, which it does. And it can't be whitewashed.

[uniquorn]

At some point both sides have to agree to disagree.

[Neven]

I agree, but I do hope you don't believe that Ukraine has no Neonazi problem whatsoever.

[sidd]

Re: I do hope you don't believe that Ukraine has no Neonazi problem

A smaller one now, and smaller still as they keep getting fed into the buzzsaw in the east. But there are plenty left in power in Kiev. I have a feeling that the regular military dont like em so much ...

sidd

[johnm33]

"they keep getting fed into the buzzsaw in the east"
There seems to be a hierarchy of aquisition when it comes to weapons, those most wanted on the black market disappear before they reach the military. Then the predominantly Galician neonazis take what they want but mainly hang back from the front lines. The rest make it into the regular army and what's left over into the undertrained regional militias who make up the bulk of those assigned front line [death] duties. These are mostly regular people who signed up intent on defending their home area, they are 'seeded' with neonazis to inhibit their tendency to surrender or desert, which when they see the incompetence of their officers and the hopelessness of the situation are the only rational responses even for the bravest, I suspect these are more nearly 'Russian' than most of those not forced to the front and in this way the apparent purpose of ethnic cleansing is served. Evil is not too strong a word for this.

[Florifulgurator]

[...]

Doesn't make it any better but often they're young and stupid, doing anything to belong to a group and impress some.

Neven does not accept this excuse for Ukrainians.

[...]
The big difference between Neonazis in Ukraine and elsewhere, besides the fact that there seem to be so many of them in Ukraine, is that instead of being marginalised and suppressed, they're actually pretty much free to do whatever they want in Ukraine, like committing human rights abuses up to murder [...]

Show me real statistics and stories from reliable sources (no Russia Today please, this is a scientific forum).

[...] Does Flori really want to play that silly game?

Why not! But let's forget about pictures. Have you ever been to rural East Germany? You see more Neonazis there than in Ukraine. For every Ukrainian Neonazi story you manage to dig out (with source!) I'll try to find a similar German Neonazi story.

E.g. murder, bombing, bank robbery, and police blindness:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground

[Neven]

[...]

Doesn't make it any better but often they're young and stupid, doing anything to belong to a group and impress some.

Neven does not accept this excuse for Ukrainians.

I do accept that as an excuse for individuals for making stupid mistakes in their youth. What I do not accept, is when extremist groups gain influence within a society, because that society doesn't have enough strong institutions to counter them. Which is clearly the case in Ukraine. This whole thread proves that, and has proven it well before 24 Feb 2022.

Show me real statistics and stories from reliable sources (no Russia Today please, this is a scientific forum).

Do your own homework, and use your common sense while at it.

[...] Does Flori really want to play that silly game?

Why not!

As expected, Flori loves to play silly games, because it's all about winning and beating the Trumputinist Ruscists.

But let's forget about pictures. Have you ever been to rural East Germany? You see more Neonazis there than in Ukraine. For every Ukrainian Neonazi story you manage to dig out (with source!) I'll try to find a similar German Neonazi story.

Can you find me a social media post by the current or former German Bundeskanzler glorifying images of Neonazi soldiers?

[Florifulgurator]

[...] What I do not accept, is when extremist groups gain influence within a society, because that society doesn't have enough strong institutions to counter them. Which is clearly the case in Ukraine. This whole thread proves that, and has proven it well before 24 Feb 2022.

I recall more Russian propaganda than proof.

Can you find me a social media post by the current or former German Bundeskanzler glorifying images of Neonazi soldiers?

Nope. Whatabout Heinz-Christian Strache? Vice-Chancellor of Austria 2017-19. He was a militant Neonazi in his youth. Your home turf Austria also has a Nazi problem in politics.

https://gfx.sueddeutsche.de/apps/e563408/www/

[Neven]

Nope. Whatabout Heinz-Christian Strache? Vice-Chancellor of Austria 2017-19. He was a militant Neonazi in his youth. Your home turf Austria also has a Nazi problem in politics.

Agreed! But they invented it, okay? 

Seriously though, Austria doesn't have a brownshirt problem. Ukraine really does.

It's very similar to Croatia (from which my father hailed). Like in Ukraine during WW2, there were some unsavoury people in Croatia who collaborated with the Germans to secede from Yugoslavia and be rid of the dominant Serbs. It was understandable up to a point, but it turned out to be a mistake, compounded by all the atrocities that were committed along the way.

I remember during the war in former Yugoslavia there was a quite a bit of extreme nationalism, some of it in jest, some not so much. I have personally experienced and witnessed this. The extremism was tolerated because there was a war going on. However, in the 25 years since that war, Croatia has, even if not perfectly, owned up to these mistakes in the past, and Neonazism is very much frowned upon in Croatia. You won't find many monuments to controversial historical figures like Ante Pavelic (the Stepan Bandera of Croatia).

Croatia is far from a rich country, but the standard is high enough to limit extreme nationalism to society's margins, very similar to other countries (we all agree upon the fact that every country houses Neonazis and other forms of extremism). The same can't be said of the extremely poor, corrupt and dysfunctional Ukraine where Neonazis have been officially integrated into the army and police force. There are many, many recorded cases of human rights abuses of journalists, leftists, Jews and so on, that simply could not be handled adequately by the justice system.  A lot of avowed Neonazis (many of them Russian and Belarusian) are criminals that are above the law, as evidenced by the Azov Battalion in Mariupol.

Ukraine is now paying the price for this. Hopefully, it can become more like Croatia in the near future. I'm ashamed when I see people carrying images of Croatian collaborators. I'd be ashamed if I was Ukrainian and saw to what degree monsters like Stepan Bandera have become salonfähig in (western) Ukraine.

[Florifulgurator]

Seriously, Austria has Nazis elected in politics. Ukraine has not. You are lucky that Jörg Haider is dead.

Pavelic is a different category than Bandera. Pavelic's butchers and the Jasenovac death camp made even the Germans puke and complain. He was made head of a German/Italian/Vatican puppet state. In contrast, Bandera fought for Ukrainian independence (he tried to leverage Hitler's invasion against Stalin (and now the Stalinists are outraged)). He didn't rise to power and was already jailed by the Germans when the ugliest atrocities happened in Ukraine.

BTW, why don't the Poles complain about the Wolhynian massacres, but instead eagerly help the Ukrainians?
Perhaps they aren't stuck in the past...

-------
P.S.:
So I revisited the horrors of Pavelic's Croatia...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
I guess I see now where you come from psychologically. Calling Ante Pavelic the Stepan Bandera of Croatia is a clear sign. You seem to be more attached to Croatia than elsewhere. Denying (trivializing) the atrocities of the forebears and obsessively projecting them on bogeymen.

Why not just German genocide deniers and conspiracy theorists. Russia, Croatia, ... also have a few skeletons in the closet.

OK, sorry, likely you are just not as smart as you think (or I thought).

[Neven]

At some point both sides have to agree to disagree.

[sidd]

Not even hiding it any more: Costume malfunction

"wearing the SS Dirlewanger Brigade patch is not a good look"

https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1591244936032423936

sidd

[KiwiGriff]

yeah Sid
We have known active Nazis here In NZ in the armed forces.
One swallow does not make a summer.
You think Nazis  are the majority? You think Nazi  defines NZ armed forces ?

If you were to draw a venn diagram of those apposed to Russian intervention in Ukraine how many would also intersect with Nazi ideology?
You are in the USA? In  your own world how many intersect with Nazi ? A fuckin lot of political rhetoric in the USA could be surmised as NAZI.

Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy[a] (born 25 January 1978), also transliterated as Zelensky or Zelenskiy, is a Ukrainian politician and former comedian and actor[4] who has served as the sixth and current president of Ukraine since 2019.

Born to a Ukrainian Jewish family, Zelenskyy grew up as a native Russian speaker in Kryvyi Rih, a major city of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast in central Ukraine.

Wiki .

Ukraine Is a  Nazi nation my fucking arse....







 
 

[Paddy]

The thing is, all the real parallels to Nazi Germany are on the Russian side of this conflict
- History of a humiliating defeat followed by tough economic times which fuels a narrative of victimisation
- Elected strongman who since seized the means of power so he can’t lose democratically, with a habit of killing off democratic opponents
- Expansionist agenda partly fuelled by that previous humiliating defeat, specifically aiming to claim other areas with people speaking the same language first
- Putting people in prison camps
- Mass civilian slaughter
- Widespread use of torture
- Political purges
- Massive propaganda exercise to push all this through, largely based on demonising the “other” groups with which their agenda puts them in conflict (particularly Ukrainians right now, but also the “decadent West” in both instances)

[be cause]

our pro-russian fascist trolls don't give a fuck what you or I think .

[Neven]

yeah Sid
We have known active Nazis here In NZ in the armed forces.
One swallow does not make a summer.
You think Nazis  are the majority? You think Nazi  defines NZ armed forces ?

Do the Nazis in your armed forces walk around with SS insignia and flags while on active duty? Do they drive around in tanks with swastikas painted on them?

Because in that case it means the NZ army is compromised, and those Nazis can do whatever they like, which means they can use violence without any reprimand or legal consequences.

Of course, that's what has been happening in Ukraine for many, many years, and that's the big difference between Nazis in other societies, who cannot do as they please. In Ukraine, which is thoroughly corrupt and has basically been a failed state for many years, there was no institution strong enough to withstand these forces. Add to that the sponsoring by oligarchs and US neocons (who have close ties to the Ukrainian Nazis that were transferred to the USA and Canada in preparation of the Cold War) to escalate with Russia, and poor Zelensky futilely begging them to stop shelling, because he was elected on a peace platform...

It's not about whether all Ukrainians are neo-Nazis. It's about a small minority who is willing to use violence to achieve its ends. And I understand that it's painful and cognitively dissonant for KiwiGriff, Paddy and be cause to be rooting for neo-Nazis, because for them war is just like sports, to be enjoyed from the sidelines. How can the good guys be neo-Nazis?

Of course, the war has sent this stuff into overdrive. We in Europe now basically have something similar to an IS caliphate on our doorstep, a completely failed state, filled with unregistered weapons and bombs, and millions of refugees all over the place. If one day escalation with Russia is no longer possible, or Poland, Hungary and Romania want their piece of the pie back, all the ingredients are there for serious terrorist attacks.

Thank you, US neocons! Thank you, Paddy, KiwiGriff and be cause! Slava Ukraini and Sieg Heil to you!