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sidd

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Russia in Ukraine
« on: September 18, 2017, 08:23:31 AM »
I created a thread about western support for nazis in ukraine and some commenters pointed out russia's role. Since I want to keep that discussion focusse, here is a different thread. I'll kick it off with my statement in the Russiagate thread that "Russia considers Ukraine central to Russian interest."

Have at it.

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 08:37:16 AM »
Thanks for opening the thread sidd.

Apart from the illegal annexation of Crimea, it is pretty clear that Russia started the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, and provided all the military support to keep this conflict going.

That includes many attacks against civilians (war crimes), including shooting down MH17, for which the Russian media hypocritically blamed Ukraine.

Questions remaining from the previous thread :

Does the Russian Parliament have anything like the Leahy law that would apply to the Russian battalions in this conflict ? Or are you of the opinion that Russia has no involvement in this conflict ?
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 08:52:29 AM »
Re: Leahy law in Russia

No clue if Russia has one, but i doubt it.

Re: Russian involvement in the conflict

Of course they're involved.

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 09:24:43 AM »
Here is an account of a war crime committed by Russia. A deliberate attack on the residents of Mariupol. War crime criminal Zakharchenko even announced it :

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/search/label/Mariupol

29 civilians died in that attack.
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 09:08:59 PM »
Interesting. Both Russia and the USA seem to support this idea. Lets see if anything comes of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/16/russian-backing-for-un-troops-in-eastern-ukraine-gives-us-more-options-says-envoy

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 07:33:13 AM »
Interesting. Both Russia and the USA seem to support this idea. Lets see if anything comes of it.

The issue is not new. In fact, Ukraine has asked for UN peacekeepers throughout Donbass ever since the Minsk agreement :
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31527414

The problem with Putin's proposal is that it would restrict the UN peacekeepers to the conflict line.
That simply would solidify the positions of the parties and in effect 'ligitimize' the separation of Donetsk and Luhansk from the rest of Ukraine.

And then there is the issue of which nations would participate in that UN peacekeepers force.
I bet Putin would love to see it packed with Russians.

Looks like Putin is looking Ukraine to become another "frozen" conflict similar to what happened in Georgia and Moldova, with Russian "peacekeepers" separating parts of a sovereign nation from control by its own government.
 
http://www.newsweek.com/putins-plea-un-peacekeepers-ukraine-just-russian-ruse-666159

This Putin proposal is the LAST thing we need.
UN peacekeepers (without Russian soldiers) patrolling the Ukraine-Russia border would be much more in line with the Minsk2 agreement's long term peace plan.
But I bet Russians don't like that idea.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 07:44:42 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 08:31:02 AM »
On a more historical note, many decades ago I read several books by Sholokov. I recommend them for insight into Russia and Ukraine. But they are very long.

sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 09:43:21 AM »
From publicly available evidence, and diligent work by Open Source Journalists like Bellingcat and ukraine@war, we know a lot about Russian military fighting in Ukraine, and Russian heavy military equipment transported into Ukraine, and which Russian BUK shot down MH17, and the lies and fabricated evidence from the Russian Defense Ministry in the MH17 case, and war crimes of Russian forces targeting Ukrainian civilians and then blaming Ukraine for it.

But Russia did not stop there in Ukraine.
Here for example is evidence of direct artillery fire from Russian forces into Ukraine on hundreds of occasions :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/12/21/russian-artillery-strikes-against-ukraine/

Artillery units of the Russian Armed Forces fired at least on 149 separate occasions attacks against Ukraine in the summer of 2014. Another 130 locations were judged likely to have been used as artillery position.

408 artillery target sites inside Ukraine within range of Russian artillery systems have a trajectory crossing the Ukrainian-Russian border, 127 of them are within 3 km of the Russian border.

In total, as evidenced by the number of impact craters, thousands of artillery projectiles were fired by the Russian military on targets inside Ukraine in the summer of 2014.
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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 11:14:42 AM »
I saw many points of view and "evidences". It depends on which media one prefer. I'm tired of all of this. Here in Russia at least 80% people support Putin. But I don't like him cause the russian economy stagnate not because of sanctions but since lack of structure reforms. Corruption, low quality of public sector, human rights, etc etc.

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 06:10:07 PM »
I see one of my favorites.....Sarah Fake Christian Huckabee has been warned that she might find herself being charged with obstruction of justice if she continues her attempt at smearing former FBI director Comey.

She comes from "bad stock" (fake Christian Mike Huckabee).....so we'll see if she continues to ski over the tips of her skis.......or she decides to throttle back her continual spewing of lies for Donnie.

Freedom of speech shouldn't mean the freedom to lie...especially when you are part of the government.  My pal Sarah is heading for a fall....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 11:20:10 PM »
"Is it possible to adopt the nationalist legacy as the national legacy and just forget about its dark side?"

is the question asked at the end of this thoughtful piece on historical legacy of Nazi support in Ukraine:

shron.chtyvo.org.ua/Khymka_Ivan-Pavlo/The_History_behind_the_Regional_Conflict_in_Ukraine_anhl.pdf

sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2017, 08:55:02 AM »
sidd, that last post is in the wrong thread  ;)
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2017, 09:09:55 AM »
I saw many points of view and "evidences". It depends on which media one prefer. I'm tired of all of this.

If one news source says one thing and another news source tells the opposite, then one of them is wrong. I can understand that you get tired of conflicting messages in a world full of propaganda, but that is why Open Source Journalism is so powerful compared to statements of authority :

If the evidence is there for all to see and verify, then the truth cannot be denied.

In the conflict in Ukraine in 2014 I noticed the horrible civilian casualties, and  I was wondering WHO was doing all that senseless killing ? I started to look at each incident specifically, and found out that there are open source investigators that are really good in analyzing all the publicly available evidence.

One example here that really opened my eyes on what you can do with open source journalism :
This the the attack on school 63 in Donetsk, November 2014. Two teenagers died. And attack on a school ? Who in their right mind does that ? 

Russian media promptly blamed Ukraine by claiming the attack was launched from Peski (controlled by Ukraine forces and north-west of school 63). But showed no evidence.

Open source journalist ukraine@war found out a different origin for the rocket that killed these teenagers :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/rocket-that-hit-school-no63-did-not.html

The missile clearly originated from Russian-controlled territory.

Read the whole thing and tell me where ukraine@war went wrong.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 09:22:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2017, 08:46:50 AM »
Since it is silent from the pro-Russia camp, let me just elaborate a bit more on that School 63 incident. Because it gets worse :

Here is the OSCE report about that incident :
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126474

And specifically this remark :
Quote
all of these were fired from a location north-west of the football pitch and were the result of high-angle fire.

Remember that (as ukraine@war showed) from the evidence available, it is very clear that the missile that killed the two teenagers, that it has to have come from an easterly direction, which is all Russian controlled territory.

ukraine@war did a separate post on OSCE's puzzling assessment of the school 63 incident :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/11/whats-problem-with-osce.html

Quote
OSCE does NOT provide ANY details how they come to their conclusion. No calculations, no images, no measurements, none whatsoever. This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to determine whether they were right or not. They just state and we have to believe based on their authority?

I have given a detailed assessment. Everybody can see how and why I come to my conclusions. Everybody can criticise me on this in detail and so they do. If I am wrong, or new information leads to tweaking of conclusions, so be it and I correct. OSCE: nothing of this.

And :
Quote
the coordinator of the OSCE observers at the border is a Russian citizen and former official at Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Indeed. That is Alexey Lyzhenkov.

This suggests that Russia's meddling in Ukraine is much more than just sending troops and tanks and artillery. Russia also appears to control OSCE.

This is deeply troubling if not jaw-dropping absurd.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 08:53:25 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2017, 07:42:18 AM »
And just in case you thought that Russian control over OSCE in Ukraine was not enough, please read this part on the Volnovakha bus attack :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/01/aerial-photo-from-osce-uav-of.html
Shows that OSCE's own evidence shows that the GRAD missiles originated from Russian controlled area (south of NE), contradicting OSCE's own claims that it came from the NNE.

Details on the Volnovakha bus attack here :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/possible-launch-location-determined-for.html
and here :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/dokuchajevsk-grad-video-was-filmed-at.html

Russian media did not like ukraine@war's assessment :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/russian-media-claims-ukrainian-sbu.html

But it gets worse :
An active Russian Army General is actually doing bomb damage assessment behind enemy lines in Ukraine, after the Volnovakha attack (caused by Russian forces) under OSCE protection :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/01/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

I'm telling you : You can't make this stuff up even if you wanted to.
Yet it is reality.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 08:56:20 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 06:14:39 AM »
Just off the presses :

A court in Russian-occupied Crimea has convicted Crimean Tatar leader Ilmi Umerov of separatism in a case criticized in the West as politically motivated.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 08:54:47 AM »
Sidd suggested (in the "Ukraine, Nazis and western support" thread) that "To begin with, It might be useful if allegations of  Russian intervention were confined to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread."

So here are four reports of war crimes of Russia in Ukraine :
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/08/evidence-of-pow-torture-and-trying-to.htm
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/08/graphic-ukrainian-pows-captured.html
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/04/motorola-can-officially-be-considered.html
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/04/medical-examinations-confirms-pows-near.html

This includes graphic images of Ukrainian POWs that were executed at point blank.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 09:12:27 AM »
EU sanctions against (mostly) Russians operating in Eastern Ukraine :

Council Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/240 of 9 February 2015 implementing Regulation (EU) No 269/2014 concerning restrictive measures in respect of actions undermining or threatening the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32015R0240

That includes well known war criminals such as Motorola and Givi.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 08:28:00 AM »
A memorial for the Ukrainians that died fighting Russians in Ukraine

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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 07:17:52 PM »
I think I've found what happened to this thread.
After 8 postings by but one poster it had morphed from a dialog to a monologue. :)
I'll bring it back to the top of the list, but how does one respond to a photo of a memorial wall?

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 08:49:22 AM »
As long as they contain valid and useful information, posting 8 messages in a row is not a problem. Sigmetnow does it all the time and it is appreciated.

Also, you don't have to respond to the memorial.
You don't even have to respond to the 8 examples I posted of Russian atrocities committed in Ukraine.

I'd just like you and anyone who reads this thread to acknowledge them.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:33:49 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2017, 08:54:40 AM »
Since the discussion about Russia's interference in Ukraine from the "Ukraine nazis and western support" thread is moved to this thread now, let me re-post the last message here :

Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.

Neven, do you have a link to the "interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. " ?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:35:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2017, 08:50:48 PM »
A memorial for the Ukrainians that died fighting Russians in Ukraine




Do these photos include those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov?  The grandmothers killed in their apartments near the Airport in Donetsk? How about those that for one reason or another didn't jump when ordered to by Right Sector?
Terry

Neven

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 12:29:30 AM »
Neven, do you have a link to the "interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. " ?

I'll post some of them tomorrow, Rob.

In the meantime, do you know of any Ukrainian atrocities against Russians that happened during the conflict?
Compare, compare, compare

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 02:29:12 AM »
Do these photos include those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov?  The grandmothers killed in their apartments near the Airport in Donetsk? How about those that for one reason or another didn't jump when ordered to by Right Sector?
Terry

There you go again, Terry. Throwing out allegations without any evidence.

The short answer is no. This memorial is for military personnel only, not for the 6000+ civilians that died in the war in Donbass.
I think we should make it a habit to have memorials for ALL casualties of war, both civilian and military.

About Odessa, first of all Azov was not in Odessa. They were in Mariupol. Are you maybe confusing two separate incidents ?

Second, since you did not provide any evidence, I looked around and found this report of the Odessa incident :
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf
Odessa May 2 event starts at point 37.

In your opinion, is that a fair description of the sequence of events that tragic day ?

Finally, I think it was a tragic loss of life. Two mobs fighting each other and the police did very little to intervene. Also the fire department was very slow to respond to the fire at the Trade Union Building.
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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 06:41:53 AM »
Perhaps I confused Right Sector with Azov, there are similarities. Are you sure that Right Sector was sent to pacify Odessa, not Azov. It's been years and it's quite possible that I've mixed one group with the other.


When discussing matters with one who spent 2 hours/day "investigating", it seems a waste of time to provide links re. well known events. When discussing Ekman Currents I don't expect to provide links to the Coriolis Effect, unless I'm speaking to a neophyte. Besides it has been years.


Your provided synopsis seems influenced to some extent by the Ukrainian government. I consider the video's that emerged as the most accurate information available. The first person accounts of stumbling over bodies makes me question the body count, though I'll concede that what appears at first glance to be a body may only have been an unconscious individual.
During your extensive investigations was it hard for you to view the raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building? She hardly seemed likely to have attacked the helpless football hooligans that had gathered for peaceful dialogue with the vicious grandmothers preparing their attacks.  ;)


Terry

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 08:26:35 AM »
Perhaps I confused Right Sector with Azov, there are similarities. Are you sure that Right Sector was sent to pacify Odessa, not Azov. It's been years and it's quite possible that I've mixed one group with the other.
Looks like it. But it reveals another issue : When you state that "those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" you were just making this stuff up as you go, and one may say that you were lying.

Quote
During your extensive investigations was it hard for you to view the raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building? She hardly seemed likely to have attacked the helpless football hooligans that had gathered for peaceful dialogue with the vicious grandmothers preparing their attacks.  ;)

Right. You know that that was just Russian propaganda, right ?
In this overview :
http://www.russialies.com/russias-top-40-lies-about-ukraine/
it is Russian lie 24.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 08:34:39 AM »
In the meantime, do you know of any Ukrainian atrocities against Russians that happened during the conflict?

You know I am a big fan of Open Source Journalism.
Where we can all see the evidence and interpret it. Just like Bellingcat and ukraine@war have been giving us dozens of accounts of atrocities committed by the Russian army and their proxies.
I've given some examples above.

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Also, if there were any, I would expect that Russian fact checkers would have reported them.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 08:48:24 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 08:25:29 PM »

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Hmm, must be the first time in world history that only one side committed atrocities in a civil war.

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2017, 09:48:34 PM »
"In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians. "

What was the Odessa massacre ?  Not an atrocity ?

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2017, 11:19:26 PM »
Perhaps I confused Right Sector with Azov, there are similarities. Are you sure that Right Sector was sent to pacify Odessa, not Azov. It's been years and it's quite possible that I've mixed one group with the other.
Looks like it. But it reveals another issue : When you state that "those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" you were just making this stuff up as you go, and one may say that you were lying.

Quote
During your extensive investigations was it hard for you to view the raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building? She hardly seemed likely to have attacked the helpless football hooligans that had gathered for peaceful dialogue with the vicious grandmothers preparing their attacks.  ;)

Right. You know that that was just Russian propaganda, right ?
In this overview :
http://www.russialies.com/russias-top-40-lies-about-ukraine/
it is Russian lie 24.


Rob
You may not be aware of this, but I actually don't appreciate being called a liar. If you just can't keep the discourse at a civil level I just might refuse to play.


If the raped and strangled gal was simply a figment of Russian propaganda it was certainly a very well done piece. The endless video through what certainly appeared to be the ruins of the Trade building, the ash that covered the bodies, and every other thing, the metadate stamps that agreed with their storyline, rather than the metadate on your "BUC launch photo", that showed the picture to have been taken prior to MH-17 being shot down.


But you know all of this - you spent 2 hours a day "investigating", and couldn't possibly have missed such a prominent video, and the endless chatter that followed.


I won't swear that anything that took place 3 years ago & half way around the world wasn't faked, but if this was a fake I will swear that it was amazingly well done. For that matter do you believe that the 'Vegas shootings' took place? I think there was more video of the Odessa Massacre than the Vegas shooting - so which one was fake?


Terry




Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 03:46:51 AM »
You may not be aware of this, but I actually don't appreciate being called a liar. If you just can't keep the discourse at a civil level I just might refuse to play.

Sorry Terry.

But the thing is that you do this all the time. You make a statement which is simply false.

You did that when you claimed the west was planning to build a military base in Crimea. False.

You did it when you claimed that people were "burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" while Azov was not in Odessa.

And now you did it again claiming "raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building" when it turns out that this woman was 59 year old, and died of smoke inhalation. How could she be "hugely pregnant" at 59, Terry ? And if she was 'strangled and raped' then apparently somebody got into the building even though the main reason so many people died was that the exits were blocked. And anyhow, it seems bizarre that someone would strangle and rape a woman while people were dying of smoke inhalation all around them.

And where is that video that you are talking about ?

If you make a false statement and apologize for it if it was shown to be false, then all is fine.
But since you do this repeatedly (spreading Russian lies), I am starting to get the feeling that you do this on purpose even though you know is is false information. Which would be lying.

Either way, it is clear that you have swallowed Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker.
And at some point you are no longer a victim of the Russian propaganda machine, but you become part of it. It looks like you crossed that line, Terry.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 04:19:16 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 04:07:28 AM »

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Hmm, must be the first time in world history that only one side committed atrocities in a civil war.

In many cases of missile attacks or bombings of civilian targets (like schools, and bus stops and residential areas) it is not possible to determine who did it. There is simply not enough "open source" video and images available.

But sometimes it is.
All I am saying that in the cases where we CAN determine who did it, the attack came from Russian controlled areas.

I've given links to some examples of open source reports of that at the start of this thread.

Also note that the Ukraine army is fighting Russian invaders. They have no military incentive to target their own civilians. Russia DOES have an incentive to kill Russian speaking Ukrainians since Russia need to sell this dirty war to the home front by painting the Ukrainian army as barbarians and Nazis that are killing Russian speaking civilians.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 04:18:34 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 04:55:56 AM »
You may not be aware of this, but I actually don't appreciate being called a liar. If you just can't keep the discourse at a civil level I just might refuse to play.
You did that when you claimed the west was planning to build a military base in Crimea. False.
Quote

This is False in your mind only. You prefer to believe that the US Navy put out a contract to rebuild a school that would only be attended by the children of Russian Navy personnel - is that even worthy of a second thought?
[/size]


You did it when you claimed that people were "burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" while Azov was not in Odessa.
Quote
I've confused Azov with Right Sector, which we had discussed. They both march under Nazi flags & use act atrociously, little separates them in my mind. I'll augment it to read "Ukrainian Nazis beat, stomped, and apparently killed a number of those who jumped for their life from the burning Trade building at Odessa".
And now you did it again claiming "raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building" when it turns out that this woman was 59 year old, and died of smoke inhalation. How could she be "hugely pregnant" at 59, Terry ? And if she was 'strangled and raped' then apparently somebody got into the building even though the main reason so many people died was that the exits were blocked. And anyhow, it seems bizarre that someone would strangle and rape a woman while people were dying of smoke inhalation all around them.
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We are talking about the large woman with the phone wire wrapped around her neck right? She certainly didn't appear to be a day over 30, and did appear to be mightily pregnant both to me and to those that shot the film.
And where is that video that you are talking about ?
Quote
What were you "researching" during the first half of May? The video's were all over the internet and everyone that was at all interested in the subject at the time was very aware of them. This is like asking my to provide a link to the calvings of Petermann while claiming to have spent 2 hours a day "researching" Nares Strait.
If you make a false statement and apologize for it if it was shown to be false, then all is fine.
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I always have. Why would you think my habits would change so suddenly?
But since you do this repeatedly (spreading Russian lies), I am starting to get the feeling that you do this on purpose even though you know is is false information. Which would be lying.
Quote
I'm beginning to think you never spent any time researching the Ukraine & have simply been cutting & pasting the latest Ukrainian propaganda.
How else do you explain not recognizing Stepan Bandera as a Nazi, or not being aware of why the US. and her ally's have to know the truth about MH-17?
Either way, it is clear that you have swallowed Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker.
Quote
Either way, I'd like you to know that your opinion holds little sway. I'm finding this conversation a bit of a bore. Generally one expects to learn something new when discussing contentious issues. You simply proclaim such and such to be a fact, then declare one who disputes your "fact" to be a liar.
I did appreciate your convoluted logic as you attempted to explain why those chanting "Knives to the Muskovites" were actually protecting the same from the Evil Russians. Jump or you're a Russian Rob. Just keep jumping.


By
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 05:55:53 AM »
OFFTOPIC:META

I find personal accusations quite unhelpful for discussion.

I suggest use of the killfile. If some here cannot refrain from personal attack, perhaps they would be better off not reading posts that drive them to to do so; they would be spared fits of anger and the rest of us here spared much drama.

For the record, I see no reason to believe that Mr. TerryM is a shill for Russia, or is being paid for his comments, or is a liar.

sidd

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2017, 06:10:16 AM »
Yes, Rob should know the difference between A) being a liar and B) repeating someone else's lies.

But then, the case of this allegedly raped woman is particularly disgusting and enraging.
I know this photo. Those rapists were very orderly. Or maybe she didn't wear underpants?  :'(
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2017, 06:31:40 AM »
P.S.:
I'm out of this thread and the other Ukraine thread. Like until shortly I will not care researching Ukraine details anymore. Any more will be a waste of time and bandwidth. And it is f-ing disgusting.

I've learned a lot. E.g. the evidence about MH-17, which was clearly perpetrated by the Russians. Wasn't that sure before.

Above all I've seen a lot grotesque Russian propaganda lies. And some of its western victims.
I won't post a video of an Andropov era KGB defector, who explained that 85% of KGB activity is subversion and destabilization, only 15% is espionage. Putin is a KGB guy. Today things are easier. They have the Internets.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 06:40:40 AM by Martin Gisser »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2017, 07:43:12 AM »
P.P.S.:
An American Facebook friend of mine recently said the following:
"The duties of citizenship now extend to fact-checking the internet."

Terry, if you can't even give a link for your stuff, then please shut up. Learn how to google. This is a scientifically minded forum. You are effectively trolling for the Russians. I do not say you are a troll :)

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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2017, 07:50:22 AM »
In the vain hope that we can get back to the thread title:

Lets talk realpolitik. In my view, Russia was never going to roll over and play nice as Ukraine joined NATO. There is a NATO review from more than a decade ago (i cannot find it at the moment, but i think it was 2004) saying exactly that.

Russia has rarely been accused of subtlety. They needed Crimea for Black Sea control, and they took it. Donestk and Luhansk took a vote  against the explicit wishes of Russia, and forced their hand. Russia then sent enough support into those provinces to enable them to resist, but not take territory.

Russia could be in Kiev in a day and the Polish border in two. But occupation is a different matter. They well recall what happened the last time they rolled through Ukraine in force. The excerpt below is from part three of the link i posted earlier to the historyanswers site:

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/bandera-ukraine-the-holocaust-part-iii-1943-1959/

"As the Red Army rolled into Kiev, the UPA avoided direct conflict – instead ambushing smaller groups of soldiers and NKVD, and undermining the re-establishment of the Soviet state by killing postmen and school teachers. Vast chunks of territory were carved out for the Ukrainian nationalists before the Soviets brought down the hammer in November 1944, burning the UPA out of their forests hideaways and setting up roadblocks in a vast effort that saw 20 NKVD combat divisions supported by artillery and armoured units deployed.

In early 1945 the Soviets reported that 89,000 nationalists had been killed, approximately 91,000 captured, and approximately 39,000 surrendered. Fierce resistance continued until the late 1940s – long after the German surrender – but Soviet crackdowns, infiltration and mass deportations ground down the nationalist grip on the population to the degree that collective farms were introduced in 1947 virtually unopposed."

Russia wants no part of occupying such hostile territory again. But Crimea will be held, Donetsk/Luhansk oblasts supported forawhile, since those do not require extreme measures.

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2017, 08:12:03 AM »
Sidd said :
Quote
In early 1945 the Soviets reported that 89,000 nationalists had been killed, approximately 91,000 captured, and approximately 39,000 surrendered. Fierce resistance continued until the late 1940s – long after the German surrender – but Soviet crackdowns, infiltration and mass deportations ground down the nationalist grip on the population

You make it sound as if that was a good thing.
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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2017, 08:31:13 AM »
"You make it sound as if that was a good thing."

I do ? How so ? I said nothing about the legitimacy or lack thereof of Soviet action.

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Neven

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2017, 10:38:09 AM »

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Hmm, must be the first time in world history that only one side committed atrocities in a civil war.

Well, it's possible. But given the ultra-right influence on the Ukrainian side, you would expect some of those anti-Russian sentiments to result in something. But, unless one of us has a direct connection to the Truth, I don't think we'll come to conclusions everyone agrees to.

So, maybe we can discuss potential ways out of this mess.

Here's one of the videos with Noam Chomsky from two years ago (click '!no longer available' if no window shows up):

Noam Chomsky: After Dangerous Proxy War, Keeping Ukraine Neutral Offers Path to Peace with Russia

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 08:02:47 PM by Neven »
Compare, compare, compare

TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2017, 03:42:07 AM »
Sorry Martin, and thanks sidd.


I'd devoted ~3 years to the subject, while back reading 8k pages to catch up to the, at that time, present. I assumed that the primary site where all the discussions, photos and video were archived would be available when/if needed. It was a very divided and divisive blog with obvious input from people from both sides that had an "agenda". It was widely accepted that spooks were reading so I opted to never comment. I didn't need the hassle, so I became a full time lurker.


The internet is not a safe repository of knowledge, as I learned when the site was taken down & the Google archive erased. Many of the photos and videos showed dead bodies, and there was a claim that written authorizations were required. Sounded like BS, but everything was swept away.


Most/some? of the documentation is available somewhere, so I'm left with the quandary of either remaining mute when misinformation is presented, or piping up when proving my recollections is difficult, at best. The problem is exacerbated when the MSM narrative diverges from what was learned.


Don't trust the internet to archive information that the powers that be may find uncomfortable.
Terry


Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2017, 04:40:34 AM »
I'd devoted ~3 years to the subject, while back reading 8k pages to catch up to the, at that time, present. I assumed that the primary site where all the discussions, photos and video were archived would be available when/if needed. It was a very divided and divisive blog with obvious input from people from both sides that had an "agenda". It was widely accepted that spooks were reading so I opted to never comment. I didn't need the hassle, so I became a full time lurker.

The internet is not a safe repository of knowledge, as I learned when the site was taken down & the Google archive erased. Many of the photos and videos showed dead bodies, and there was a claim that written authorizations were required. Sounded like BS, but everything was swept away.

Which site exactly was that, Terry, which "was taken down & the Google archive erased." ?
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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2017, 05:01:17 AM »
I'd devoted ~3 years to the subject, while back reading 8k pages to catch up to the, at that time, present. I assumed that the primary site where all the discussions, photos and video were archived would be available when/if needed. It was a very divided and divisive blog with obvious input from people from both sides that had an "agenda". It was widely accepted that spooks were reading so I opted to never comment. I didn't need the hassle, so I became a full time lurker.

The internet is not a safe repository of knowledge, as I learned when the site was taken down & the Google archive erased. Many of the photos and videos showed dead bodies, and there was a claim that written authorizations were required. Sounded like BS, but everything was swept away.

Which site exactly was that, Terry, which "was taken down & the Google archive erased." ?
What part of
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2017, 05:11:40 AM »
Here's one of the videos with Noam Chomsky from two years ago (click '!no longer available' if no window shows up):

Thanks Neven.
On my browser (Chrome) the video's do not play and the click on '!no longer available' leads just back to this page. Could you please just post the youtube link instead ?

I found Naom Chomsky's video by searching for the title, and I have a few comments on his report.

For starters, Naom's argument of Nato bases moving eastward as an excuse for Russia's actions in Ukraine does not make any sense at all.

For starters, the last time Nato moved closer to the Russian border was 2004.
That is 10 years before Russia annexed Crimea and invaded in Donbass.
Actually all through the time period 1991 (breakup of the Warsaw pact) through to 2014, the relationship between Nato and Russia was improving, and were even friendly at times, resulting for example joint military exercises as late as 2011. Nato is not a threat to Russia, and it would have been great to have Russia join Nato at some point when it stops harassing its neighbors.

But Noam Chomsky goes even one step further : He even argues that Nato should no longer exist.

And that is a very dangerous proposition.
Countries join Nato because is prevents anyone from attacking you. You know, the thing that happened all the time in history, and led to two world wars in the first half of the 20th century.

As this epic and very funny response from a Dutch TV talk-show to the Trump administration suggests with a serious note at 3:29 :


"if you screw Nato, you are going to make our problems great, again. They are going to be huge, they are going to be enormous. It's true. Please don't".
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:25:25 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2017, 05:38:31 AM »
I think Noam Chomsky's point was that Gorbachev was promised that NATO would not expand eastward, the promise was broken, and in consequence Russia does not play nice anymore.

As for his point that NATO is obsolete, you might want to write him yourself. He is very good about answering. If you do, would you ask him if you can publish the exchange here (but perhaps on a new thread,) he is good about that too.

sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2017, 08:36:00 AM »
I think Noam Chomsky's point was that Gorbachev was promised that NATO would not expand eastward, the promise was broken, and in consequence Russia does not play nice anymore.

As I pointed out in my post, there is a 10 year gap between NATO expansion and Russia's actions in Ukraine. During that time, there were even NATO/Russian joint military exercises. So the two issues (NATO expansion, and Russia's actions in Ukraine) are UNRELATED.

Quote
As for his point that NATO is obsolete, you might want to write him yourself. He is very good about answering. If you do, would you ask him if you can publish the exchange here (but perhaps on a new thread,) he is good about that too.

Since you seem to know him better than I do, maybe you can introduce him to this thread.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2017, 09:02:31 AM »
Well, it's possible. But given the ultra-right influence on the Ukrainian side, you would expect some of those anti-Russian sentiments to result in something. But, unless one of us has a direct connection to the Truth, I don't think we'll come to conclusions everyone agrees to.

Two comments on that.
First of all, the "ultra-right influence on the Ukrainian side" appears to be restricted to single-digit poll numbers. Right sector obtained only 1.8% of the vote, and Svoboda (how far right this party is is debatable) only 4.7% in the 2014 elections. So Ukrainians by and large do NOT support far right-wing nationalism.

Secondly, while main-stream media (MSM) typically only reports "this side says this and that side says that) there is a true alternative to finding the TRUTH. It's called "Open Source Journalism".
Open Source Journalism, as pioneered by Bellingcat and ukraine@war, uses ONLY publicly available information (typically videos and pictures and satellite images publicly available on the internet) to find out what really happened in any particular incident. I've given a number of examples of this early in this thread, which prove that at least in a number of cases Russian forces deliberately targeted Ukrainian civilians, with deadly consequences.
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