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Author Topic: Russia in Ukraine  (Read 5085 times)

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2017, 09:42:54 AM »
What part of
By
was it that you missed
Terry

You are not making any sense, Terry.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2017, 04:20:38 AM »
In this thread we mostly focussed on Russia's physical presence in Ukraine.
But Russia is not just fighting a physical war.

This is a great article how Russia engages in cyber warfare in Ukraine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/hunting-the-hackers-how-ukraine-became-russias-test-lab-for-cyberwar-20171017-gz2dtx.html

Quote
A hacker army has systematically undermined practically every sector of Ukraine: media, finance, transportation, military, politics, energy. "You can't really find a space in Ukraine where there hasn't been an attack," says Kenneth Geers, a NATO ambassador who focuses on cybersecurity.

The article focusses on undermining critical infrastructure, like the power grid, as in the two cyber attacks (in Dec 2015 and Dec 2016) that brought down the grid in parts of Kiev and other places.

Quote
Many global cybersecurity analysts believe Russia is using the country [Ukraine] as a  laboratory for perfecting new forms of global online combat.
....
 "This is a place where you can do your worst without retaliation or prosecution,"

And there is a lesson to be learned : If they can do it in Ukraine, they can do it anywhere.

Quote
The Kremlin meddled in the Ukrainian election and faced no real repercussions; then it tried similar tactics in Germany, France, and the United States. "They're testing out red lines, what they can get away with," Rid says. "You push and see if you're pushed back. If not, you try the next step."
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Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2017, 02:24:23 PM »
But Russia is not just fighting a physical war.

This is a great article how Russia engages in cyber warfare in Ukraine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/hunting-the-hackers-how-ukraine-became-russias-test-lab-for-cyberwar-20171017-gz2dtx.html
[...]

Oops, now I klicked this thread I wanted to stay out...
Good!
This article confirms my impression.
Russia's i-war on Ukraine has alas also infected some westerners. That's the advantage: Memes can spread by themselves and infect people who are waiting for them, sort of an active infection. The art is to place the lies at the right spot and moment, and then they spread on their own.
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TerryM

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2017, 08:48:38 PM »
Are we positing that some Russian hackers had more influence in Ukrainian politics than the $5B that America bragged of spending prior to the coup?
The $17B that the World Bank is providing to the New Ukrainian Government should also be acknowledged.(and tracked)


Ukraine's problems before and after the change are and were due to government corruption. A situation that is not improving. When the Rada looks less like a hockey game gone bad, and Nazi's quit dumping legislators in trash bins, we'll know that progress is being made.(unless it's due to all of the honest legislators having been driven out)


Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2017, 02:14:07 AM »
Are we positing that some Russian hackers had more influence in Ukrainian politics than the $5B that America bragged of spending prior to the coup?
Indeed. Russian educated engineers can make computers out of shoe strings. Money is relative. (That is actually reflected by U.S. economy carbon efficiency...) Let them brag. :)
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2017, 05:45:21 AM »
Are we positing that some Russian hackers had more influence in Ukrainian politics than the $5B that America bragged of spending prior to the coup?

Still insisting it was a "coup", Terry ? Despite clear evidence (discussed here in this thread) that it was a popular uprising and Yanukovych ran away after he issued an order to shoot the protesters?

And while we are at it, what was that web site where you obtained your information from ?
You know the one that you stated "was taken down & the Google archive erased." ?

And regarding that the United States spent $5 billion on Ukraine anti-government riots, I'm sure you have not read (or did, but ignored) the fact-checking reports on that :
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

Looks like your claim is labeled "Pants-on-Fire".
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 06:55:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2017, 06:23:41 AM »
Here is an address by Prof. Lieven on history of Russia in the European context. Prof Lieven is perhaps the foremost historian on central Europe and Russia alive today. Short and well worth reading. The reason I post in this thread is an insightful passage which I quote below. But the whole article is very good, and contains an assertion that has left me thinking, that " ... in my opinion William II came closer to dominating Europe than either Napoleon or Hitler."

"The key to the region’s future to a great extent revolved around the future of Ukraine, which emerged as an independent state as a result of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. The territory of the Ukrainian republic included the core of the Russian Empire’s coal, iron and metallurgical industries, as well as of its agricultural exports. Without them Russia would cease to be a great power, at the very least until the Urals-Siberian region was developed as an alternative. The dramatic shift in the European balance of power this entailed was increased by the fact that a nominally independent Ukraine could only survive as a German satellite. Not merely did the government in Kiev face hostile Bolshevik, Russian and Jewish minorities within Ukraine; even most of the ethnically Ukrainian peasant majority had very little sense of Ukrainian identity. Only Germany could protect Ukraine against its external and internal enemies. Germany and an independent Ukraine were in fact natural allies since they shared the same enemies, namely the Russians and the Poles. To write in these terms might seem to deny the legitimacy of Ukrainian statehood. That is not my intention. Given time an independent state could have used its schools to inculcate a sense of Ukrainian identity into the Ukrainian peasantry. Ukraine was potentially a much more viable nation-state than, for example, the Iraq that Britain carved out of the Ottoman Empire after allied victory in order to secure control over the region’s oil. "

Read all about it:

http://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/revolution-war-and-empire/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2017, 07:46:03 AM »
It seems to me that people outside of Ukraine have a lot of opinions about Ukraine.
Statements like "Only Germany could protect Ukraine against its external and internal enemies." are decidedly autocratic in nature.

Why don't we let the people of Ukraine decide for themselves what is good for their nation and what not.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2017, 07:56:27 AM »
Here is a very good article about Ukraine, and why Russia continues to f**k around in that nation :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-does-putin-want-control-ukraine-ask-stalin/2017/10/20/800a7afe-b427-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?utm_term=.417a9d0f1578

Ukraine suffered more than ANY nation during the 20th century :

During the Holodomor, some 4 million Ukrainians lost their lives, directly as a result of Stalin's policies.

During WWII, they had the war front pass over TWICE over their country, with 3 million Ukrainians killed by the Nazis and another 4 million killed by the Soviets (Russians) when the front moved back.

Can we now PLEASE give the Ukrainians a break and let them decide for themselves what is good for them and what not ?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:04:27 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2017, 09:39:49 AM »
Russia's arm is long, especially in Ukraine

Just another example :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41755669

Quote
In March, Denis Voronenkov, a former Russian MP who fled to Ukraine last year, was shot dead outside a hotel in the centre of the capital.
In July 2016, a prominent Belarusian journalist and Kremlin critic, Pavel Sheremet, was killed in a car bomb explosion.

And it goes the other way around too :

Quote
Two years ago, Oles Buzyna, a Ukrainian journalist known for his pro-Russian views, was shot dead not far from his flat.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 06:03:18 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2017, 08:51:46 AM »
As a perfect example of what Open Source Journalism can do, the Dutch police, via the MH17 JIT (Joint Investigative Team) recently released a new picture of the Russian BUK that downed MH17 :

https://www.politie.nl/themas/flight-mh17/witness-appeal-crash-mh17.html#alinea-title-information-about-photograph-buktelar



The JIT are asking for any information about this picture. They suspected that it was taken in Makeevka.

Bellingcat immediately launched a crowd-sourcing investigation here :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/10/19/jit-publishes-new-photograph-buk-332-day-mh17-downing/

and only a day later the results were in :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/10/20/new-mh17-photograph-geolocated-donetsk/

This picture was geo-located in Donetsk, "around 9am on July 17, 2014, parked at the intersection of Prospekt Ilycha and Shakhtostroiteley" which actually confirmed earlier written reports.

If you like fact checking, you have got to love this kind of analysis. Especially how they found and geo-located the rocks under the tree, and the fence under the BUK.

If you like Putin's lies, then you will hate Bellingcat and others for doing this work.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:13:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2018, 09:53:40 AM »
Just another day in Ukraine :

Quote
Over the past day, Russian-occupation troops shelled positions of Ukrainian defenders 47 times, including with the use of anti-tank assault weapons. "In the Luhansk direction, the enemy fired from 122 mm artillery, banned by Minsk Agreements, at our fortifications near Prychepylivka, and from 82 mm mortars – in the area of Novozvanivka,"

Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/war/10099622-ukraine-reports-2-wias-as-militants-use-anti-tank-assault-weapons-near-vodiane.html
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2018, 07:00:48 AM »
Russia continues to harass Ukraine in every possible way it can.

The latest development is serious :
Russia rammed, shot at and seized three Ukrainian Navy vessels from the The Kerch Strait.

Here is a detailed factual analysis of what happened, when and exactly where :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/11/30/investigating-the-kerch-strait-incident/

From this information, several things are made clear :

Firstly, based on geolocated video footage, Ukrainian ships did enter Russian-claimed territorial waters, both that of Crimea and mainland Russia in the Kerch Strait. Ukraine nonetheless argues this was legally permissible due to the 2003 agreement between the two countries.

Secondly, we can say that the Ukrainian tug ‘Yani Kapu’ was intentionally rammed at least four times over a period of at least an hour. Here is one such ramming by Russian vessel 'Don' :



Thirdly, based on information provided by the Russian FSB which appears to incriminate themselves, the shooting of the ‘Berdyansk’ most likely took place in international waters.
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Neven

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2018, 08:00:32 AM »
Lurk posted this in the wrong thread:

Quote
......as they have been consistently under Russian's oppressive thumb throughout history ....

History is such a difficult weighty subject for the best of us. I recommend starting with something real simple - say Wikipedia - that's a good start. It's amazing how quickly one can realize how much you don't know and never knew. Funny that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine

I lost count at about 8 invasions of what is today "Ukraine lands" by different nations/empires before the 1917 revolution in Tzarist Russia. Even those Ottoman Turks had handy slice of it. Should I list them all for you? Or will you read the webpage and tell me how many you can count? :)

Ukraine is often described as "the breadbasket" of the USSR at one point. I think it is more aptly described as simply a "basket case" politically and socially. No offense to any Ukrainians past or present, eg Tchaikovsky, Golda Mier, Leonid Brezhnev, Leon Trotsky and Mikheil Saakashvili - corrupt crazy criminal ex-President of Georgia and ex-Governor of Odessa and general wanker extraordinaire still on the run from an Interpol Warrant.

Sorry but I digress. Ukraine is like a Camel - the kind of nation that gets born of a Committee ... ;)
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Lurk

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2018, 08:09:50 AM »
The Ukrainian spelling is Holodymyr. But you don't acknowledge Ukraine as a country or a culture and instead continue labeling it as Soviet. So, enjoy your ignorance. 

Fun fact: my family was personally victimized by the Russians upon their third-to-last invasion in 1939 (another fun fact: Russia re-invaded in 1944 and is currently invading once more). They left before they could come back again to finish the job. Ukraine has been invaded 3X in the last 75 years alone by the Russians. You are a fat boob.

Life wasn't mean to be easy. So cry me a river, because you're not the only Victim in this world by far! Call it your bad family karma if it makes you feel better or not, it doesn't change things after the event.

Unless you were trying to explain how much compassion and empathy you had for all those people burned alive in that building by Ukrainian militias aka fascist criminal thugs in Crimea - or the military shelling and bombing from the air of civilians living Donetsk  etc much more recently? 
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2018, 08:28:45 AM »
Lurk posted this in the wrong thread:
....
Ukraine is often described as "the breadbasket" of the USSR at one point. I think it is more aptly described as simply a "basket case" politically and socially.

That's my boy Krul !
Always believing the oppose of the facts.

Keep up the good work, Krul, Putin loves you for it !
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2018, 08:43:48 AM »
But pray tell, how does "appearing to intentionally ram" later become " was intentionally rammed"?

Ah. Let's look at the evidence... shall we .... ?



Does it look like the Russian vessel 'Don' is "appearing to intentionally ram" this Ukrainian tugboat, or was that Ukrainian tug boat "intentionally rammed" by the 'Don' ?

You tell me.

The thing I find hilarious in this is that the 'Don' with all its bullying and its testosterone "appears to have unintentionally rammed" ;D another Russian vessel (the "Izumrod") just seconds after the above video ends.

Damage visible here :


« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:49:28 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Lurk

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2018, 09:32:02 AM »
A 1:14 min video from one perspective. Really. You tell me what is so compelling? I saw this the day it happened. What Bellingcat got to do with anything? Where is the other 2 hours of multiple video cams, satellite replications, and maps and audio on board ALL vessels and including all radio transmissions and so on Rob? Why are you always so damned impatient at arriving at conjectured presumptuous conclusions asap (or even rational ones) all the time about every topic known to mankind?

Do you have a Master License Rob? Ever been the captain of anything larger than a dingy with an 5 hp outboard - or a surfboard? Didn't think so.

Who had the "right of way" under normal circumstances on water Rob?

Now who has all the rights in this specific circumstance Rob?

Who is prima facie to blame for this collision on water Rob, according to Law. Any idea?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 10:27:55 AM by Lurk »
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Neven

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2018, 09:51:38 AM »
The collusion isn't working, so let's try collision.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2018, 11:32:01 AM »
Who is prima facie to blame for this collision on water Rob, according to Law. Any idea?

Yeah. Who is responsible for the damage on the "Izumrod" ?
There is a gaping hole in her starboard side, where the Russian vessel "Don" rammed her.
Who's fault was that, Krul ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2018, 11:40:17 AM »
Will Rob answer the question he was asked by Zizek? Was the shooting down of MH17 a "war crime". A simple straight Yes or No answer Mr Dekker.

Almost overlooked this, but YES :

MH17 was a war crime committed by the Russian military (the 53rd Brigade from Kursk to be precise).
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Lurk

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2018, 12:36:23 PM »
Who is prima facie to blame for this collision on water Rob, according to Law. Any idea?

Yeah. Who is responsible for the damage on the "Izumrod" ?
There is a gaping hole in her starboard side, where the Russian vessel "Don" rammed her.
Who's fault was that, Krul ?

Went right over your head I see. Your answer is "no idea" then. I figured as much. But gave you the benefit of the doubt, just in case you actually knew something about what you "speak" here from direct personal experience and knowledge for once. Thankfully I don't feel sorry for you. I know your difficulties have been all self-inflicted. C'est la vie, life's a right bitch some days.
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”

Rob Dekker

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2018, 01:17:46 PM »
Went right over your head I see. Your answer is "no idea" then. I figured as much. But gave you the benefit of the doubt, just in case you actually knew something about what you "speak" here from direct personal experience and knowledge for once. Thankfully I don't feel sorry for you. I know your difficulties have been all self-inflicted. C'est la vie, life's a right bitch some days.

I love you too, Krul.
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Lurk

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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2018, 01:52:23 PM »
Went right over your head I see. Your answer is "no idea" then. I figured as much. But gave you the benefit of the doubt, just in case you actually knew something about what you "speak" here from direct personal experience and knowledge for once. Thankfully I don't feel sorry for you. I know your difficulties have been all self-inflicted. C'est la vie, life's a right bitch some days.

I love you too, Krul.

I suppose that’s how high of a pedestal you need to place someone on above the ordinary people in order to see their acts of mass murder as insignificant little foibles instead of horrific atrocities which define their entire personhood.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/if-you-murdered-a-bunch-of-people-mass-murder-is-your-single-defining-legacy-27dd8c9a72e6
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 02:17:54 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Russia in Ukraine
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2018, 07:42:04 PM »

I suppose this particular post could be captioned "Ukrainians in Russia" :)

I've questions as to the identity of the Texan holding forth over the tug's radio.


Was he the captain that instigated the crash by violating just about every international law of the sea?
Who signed his captains papers?
Who signed his orders?
Who signed his paycheque?


Why did he respond to Russian questions in English?
Were the rest of his crew also from Texas?
Were the captains of the gunboats all Americans?
Were the crew of the gunboats Ukrainian or American?
What is his nationality now, and how long has he held that passport?


He apparently knows nothing of nautical law, so what field was he trained in?
Was he the captain who "immediately surrendered" to the Russians?


on a slightly different tack:
Was diving gear found on any of the Ukrainian ships?
Were explosives found on any of the Ukrainian ships?
Were any of the captured experts in underwater demolition, bridge design, or explosives?


Why wouldn't the Ukrainians allow the vessels to be boarded or searched?
Was anything tossed overboard during the chasing about?
How close were any of the gunboats to any of the bridge pylons?


So many questions, so few answers - yet.
Terry
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:13:24 PM by TerryM »