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Author Topic: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?  (Read 29828 times)

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #500 on: September 10, 2019, 04:51:40 PM »
I care about the issues at hand, and I care about nuances. I don't think there is a binary distinction between a Sanders utopia and a Warren hell. I will gladly accept Sanders, Warren, Yang, or Gabbard over any of the other candidates, and certainly over Trump. You'd probably consider me to be an incrementalist, which is fair.

FWIW, my experience living in rust belt swing states that went red leads me to prefer Sanders and Yang. They are the kind of candidates that factory workers will vote for.

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For supporters of Donald Trump now disillusioned with his actions an improbable figure is emerging on the Left. Andrew Yang, a candidate for the Democrat presidential nomination in 2020, has received increasing support from disenfranchised working class voters in key “rust belt” states like Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan.

People who voted for Mr Trump in 2016 have increasingly been turning up at Mr Yang’s rallies, replacing their MAGA hats with ones that say ”MATH" - which stands for ”Make America Think Harder" - ”Yang Gang".

According to polls Mr Yang, along with Bernie Sanders, is the the only Democrat who more than 10 per cent of Trump supporters say they would consider voting for.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #501 on: September 10, 2019, 05:13:30 PM »
Sanders utopia and a Warren hell

That's not what i'm saying. I'm saying i trust Bernie to change things in a meaningful manner. Because he already delivered. Because he is consistent. Because he is honest.

And i don't trust Warren because she is in the same boat than the ones who very much don't want any change.

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I will gladly accept Sanders, Warren, Yang, or Gabbard over any of the other candidates, and certainly over Trump. You'd probably consider me to be an incrementalist, which is fair.

Well, when the primaries are over i will support the democratic nominee, whoever it is.

But this is not this time. This is pre-primaries and now we have the chance to debate. This is what's called the democratic process.

Don't fall for the stupid 'everything is better than Trump' argument. Any cashier at any random gas station anywhere in the country is better than Trump.

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FWIW, my experience living in rust belt swing states that went red leads me to prefer Sanders and Yang.

You are right. People tend to vote populistic. Bernie Sanders i the one honest populist. Populism is the new electability.

(BTW, Yang is a right-winger according to his policies, but he stands no chance anyway.)
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sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #502 on: September 10, 2019, 05:39:25 PM »
This is pre-primaries and now we have the chance to debate. This is what's called the democratic process.
Yes, which I am participating in by expressing my support for multiple candidates (a list much smaller than 'anyone but Trump'). I trust each of them to enact meaningful reform, as much as possible with a conservative Senate and Supreme Court.

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(BTW, Yang is a right-winger according to his policies, but he stands no chance anyway.)
Please elaborate.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #503 on: September 10, 2019, 05:52:25 PM »
Please elaborate.

Look on his stands on Israel for example.

Or better talk about UBI?

There are two trends in UBI. The right-wing version: Yeah, great idea to justify getting rid of the welfare state. Left-wing version: Don't touch welfare, have UBI on top (because the proposed 1k is nothing when it comes to medical bills for example). This is the sane version of UBI. Now, look at Yang's implementation.
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sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #504 on: September 10, 2019, 06:19:14 PM »
He supports a two-state solution. His Israel stance may not be as far to the left as other candidates, but it's certainly not right-wing (especially in the US). On foreign policy, he seems more uninformed than right-wing to me.

Yang's UBI is on top of medicare-for-all and social security. He proposes replacing unemployment benefits and food stamps (programs that can reinforce poverty by disincentivizing earned income), not the entire welfare system. And even then a person can opt out if their benefits are higher than 12k. It's somewhere in between your right-wing and left-wing versions.

Overall, Yang's policies are definitely left-wing.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #505 on: September 10, 2019, 06:41:31 PM »


You point out how Bernie is the candidate who achieved that goal already, but you don't end your post with 'and therefore Bernie is the real deal'?

You see how rare such a chance is, and then you dismiss it instead of grabbing it?

We now see the whole democratic mainstream narrative shifting because Bernie relentlessly beating the same drums for the last 50 years but you see Warren as the hard worker?

Healthcare for all, Green New Deal, minimum wage, etc, that's what all the candidates talk about because Bernie shifted the Overton window. It's his contribution to the country already before even being president - but you see Warren as the reformer?
 

For all his time in Congress, Bernie has essentially ZERO legislative accomplishments.  He shows little ability to team with allies to accomplish concrete goals.

He talks a great platform.  He moves the content of the debate.  He's an inspiration.  But I don't believe he can be elected.  If elected, I don't believe he can get any of his agenda through Congress.

Warren has demonstrated impressive ability to enact reforms.  Her championing of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is proof.  This was anathema to Wall Street and big money.  It made good progress until the Trump administration de-fanged it.  She's worked tirelessly with anyone who will ally with her in pursuit of reforms.  I do note, however, that she's been an absolute whore for the medical device manufacturers in particular.  A key constituency in Mass.  A pragmatic necessity, as I see it.

In the current system, I don't believe any purist can be elected.  In this perspective, there is no contradiction at all with accepting Big Money while seeking to end the influence of Big Money.

Making progress within a deeply corrupt system cannot be accomplished by a lily-white purist.  We mustn't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Bernie is an impractical, ineffective, but consistent idealist.  He's an inspiration.
Warren is a pragmatic, effective realist.  She can get things done.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #506 on: September 10, 2019, 07:09:30 PM »
She can get things done.

Yeah, but is she at all willing to get done what she is saying today? I honestly doubt it.

Again i don't oppose your analysis. I just come to very different results.

As of his accomplishments, i would list shifting the Overton window in a positive way as mentioned above which is a great skill to have if you are president in a post-trump world. Or his proposed Bezos bill that forced Amazon to adopt the $15 minimum wage. I would also see his flawless voting record to be a very positive accomplishment. There are many more things that actually changed things in a positive way. He gets shit done, he has proven so in the past.

Ah, and BTW his bills and proposals seem to be so great, even Warren stole from him big time. ;)

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sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #507 on: September 10, 2019, 07:10:35 PM »
I don't believe he can be elected.  If elected, I don't believe he can get any of his agenda through Congress.
If he's nominated, "electability" becomes moot and the establishment should fall in line. He has plenty of cross-party/independent appeal to win the election. Once in office he should get just as much congressional support as any other progressive. His record as a senator would have little bearing on how much influence he would have as president.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #508 on: September 11, 2019, 07:33:33 AM »
Uh-Oh: Elizabeth Warren Has Been Talking To Hillary Clinton

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blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #509 on: September 11, 2019, 04:07:49 PM »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #510 on: September 11, 2019, 09:28:38 PM »
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Elizabeth Warren (@ewarren) 9/10/19, 5:39 PM
I'm Elizabeth Warren and I approve this message.
https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1171538730621915136
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CNBC (@CNBC)9/10/19, 3:09 PM
Wall Street executives are fearful of an Elizabeth Warren presidency, according to @MadMoneyOnCNBC's @jimcramer.
cnb.cx/2UOpK4n   
https://twitter.com/cnbc/status/1171500839686590464
3-minute video clip of CNBC analysts at the link.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:39:07 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Neven

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #511 on: September 11, 2019, 09:30:53 PM »
Couple of good remarks in this one:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #512 on: September 13, 2019, 07:24:10 AM »
Buttigieg and Warren promise to pull out of Afghanistan unilaterally, even absent deal with Taliban:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/461236-buttigieg-warren-pledge-afghanistan-withdrawal-even-without-taliban-peace

sidd

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #513 on: September 13, 2019, 02:02:24 PM »
One positive thing about Joe Biden, he recognises a president when he sees one.

Biden mistakenly refers to Sanders as 'the president' during debate

Link >> https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/461208-biden-mistakenly-refers-to-sanders-as-the-president-during-debate
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blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #514 on: September 13, 2019, 02:07:57 PM »
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Play the radio, make sure the television, excuse me, make sure you have a record player on at night, make sure that kids hear words, a kid coming from a very poor school, or a very poor background, will hear four fewer words spoken by the time they get there.

You can't say if trump or Biden, can you?
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blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #515 on: September 15, 2019, 03:24:26 PM »
Pretty funny and entertaining debate recap.

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Exclusive: Bernie Sanders Talks About His Debate Performance | Useful Idiots

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sidd

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #516 on: September 16, 2019, 10:38:39 PM »
John Kass, a conservative, weighs in at chicago tribune: a study in authenticity

"if it were a contest in authenticity, Sanders would win in a landslide.:"

"But does that matter to Democrats? ... Sanders was the truly authentic candidate in 2016 ...   establishment Democrats were frightened ... rigged the presidential nomination against him ... They got the fake they wanted and lost."

"To them, authenticity is a commodity to be bought"

"I think there’s some there, there with Bernie."

"As a conservative I vehemently disagree with most everything he says."

"He pushes Medicare for All, knowing it will eventually knock 150 million Americans out of their private sector health care, and admits it means higher taxes on the middle class. But he doesn’t hide it or sugarcoat it like Warren, who wants those Bernie Bros for herself but doesn’t have the — what’s the word, guts? — to say it means a tax increase on the middle class."

"can Democrats handle the authentic truth?"

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-bernie-sanders-democrats-kass-20190914-3cueve7hdrgznjxsxdo4z5ccv4-story.html

sidd


wili

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #517 on: September 17, 2019, 03:49:56 AM »
(not very) subtly sexist
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #518 on: September 18, 2019, 08:06:00 PM »
Who Won The Debate Among Voters Who Prioritize Electability? Health Care? Climate Change?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-won-the-debate-among-voters-who-prioritize-electability-health-care-climate-change/
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Part of the difficulty of picking winners and losers in a debate is that each voter brings a different rubric to the task. For example, a Democrat whose top priority is enacting stricter gun control may be looking for different things in a candidate’s performance than a voter whose sole objective is to get President Trump out of office. So to get a more nuanced picture of which candidates did well in last week’s third Democratic presidential debate, let’s break down reactions among these differently motivated voters.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #519 on: September 19, 2019, 08:48:30 AM »
HEAR THE BERN [Podcast]

Future - w/ Harvey Kaye & Cornel West


Link >> https://www.blubrry.com/hear_the_bern/48984290/24-back-to-the-future-w-harvey-kaye-cornel-west/
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Klondike Kat

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #520 on: September 19, 2019, 03:16:57 PM »
Who Won The Debate Among Voters Who Prioritize Electability? Health Care? Climate Change?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/who-won-the-debate-among-voters-who-prioritize-electability-health-care-climate-change/
Quote
Part of the difficulty of picking winners and losers in a debate is that each voter brings a different rubric to the task. For example, a Democrat whose top priority is enacting stricter gun control may be looking for different things in a candidate’s performance than a voter whose sole objective is to get President Trump out of office. So to get a more nuanced picture of which candidates did well in last week’s third Democratic presidential debate, let’s break down reactions among these differently motivated voters.

Using the 538 metric of top issues, Elizabeth Warren definitely came out on top.  The next three year Biden, Booker, and Klobuchar.  On the flip side, Kamala Harris did the worst, followed by Castro and Sanders. 

On individual issues, Warren was tops in being able to beat Trump, followed by Booker and Biden, while Harris was last, followed by Sanders.  Regarding healthcare, Biden was well on top, followed by Yang.  Harris was at the bottom, followed by Booker.  Warren was well ahead on the economy, followed by Klobuchar, while Sanders was a distant last.  No one really stood out on wealth and income inequality, although the big three lead the pack.  Conversely, O'Rourke fared the poorest, followed by Harris and Yang.  Finally, on climate change, O'Rourke stood out strongly, followed by Booker.  Castro fared poorest, closely followed by Biden and Yang.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #521 on: September 19, 2019, 08:49:32 PM »
Damn spot on! Trump is afraid of the other populist in the race, the honest one!

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LEAKED: Who & What Trump Is Scared To Run Against

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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #522 on: September 21, 2019, 01:01:23 AM »
Sanders vows 'extremely bold and extremely aggressive' plan to fight climate change
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/presidential-candidates-talk-climate-change-forum-presented-msnbc-n1056336
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Presidential candidates talked up their vision for fighting climate change Thursday, with Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and others promising "bold" action on an issue that has become a defining one for Democrats ahead of the 2020 election.

In total, 12 presidential candidates — 11 vying for the Democratic nomination and one Republican mounting a primary challenge President Donald Trump — are pitching their environmental plans during the two-day, town-hall style event taking place at Georgetown University's Institute of Politics and Public Service in Washington. The forum, which is hosted by MSNBC's Chris Hayes and Ali Velshi, comes amid a week-long series of climate coverage from NBC News, MSNBC, Telemundo and NBC News digital.
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