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Author Topic: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?  (Read 83313 times)

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #600 on: October 09, 2019, 08:13:21 PM »
Wow, this chart gives me hope. Thanks, for sharing, Sedziobs.

sidd

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #601 on: October 10, 2019, 10:53:47 PM »
Gabbard considering boycott of ohio debate: the fix is in

" the DNC and corporate media are rigging the election again"

"They are attempting to replace the roles of voters in the early states, using polling and other arbitrary methods which are not transparent or democratic, and holding so-called debates which are not debates at all but rather commercialized reality television meant to entertain, not inform or enlighten."

https://www.tulsi2020.com/election-process

sidd

sidd

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #602 on: October 11, 2019, 06:34:55 AM »
Robert Reich: a presidential candidate has to be inspiring

"Big ideas are essential in order to be electable."

"today the real contest is between the people and the powerful – the vast majority of Americans versus an oligarchy"

"The way it was before Trump brought us Trump"

"looking forward to what America should be rather than backward to an America that was never as good as it could be."

https://robertreich.org/post/188216802405

sidd

sidd

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #603 on: October 16, 2019, 01:34:38 AM »
Holy shit: Bernie doubles down

"corporations with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be required to provide at least 2 percent of stock to their workers every year until the company is at least 20 percent owned by employees."

"45 percent of the board of directors in any large corporation with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be directly elected by the firm’s workers"

"U.S. corporations with more than $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies must obtain a federal charter from a newly established Bureau of Corporate Governance at the Department of Commerce. This new federal charter will require corporate boards to consider the interests of all of the stakeholders in a company – including workers, customers, shareholders, and the communities in which the corporation operates."

"large-scale stock buybacks will be treated like stock manipulation, just as they were before 1982"

"the owners of firms that dispose of American labor to take advantage of robots or cheap labor overseas will be required to share the gains that they make through such practices with those whom these practices harm. "

"Under this plan, a $500 million U.S. Employee Ownership Bank will be created to provide low-interest loans, loan guarantees, and technical assistance to workers who want to purchase their own businesses"

"workers will be given the right to buy a company when it goes up for sale, is closing, or if a factory is moving overseas "

"Ban asset managers voting on other people’s money, unless they are following instructions"

"Guarantee the right of every saver to elect representatives who set voting policy in corporations, in multi-employer pensions, single-employer pensions, in 401(k) funds, and every other form."

"Have the FTC conduct a thorough review of all mergers and acquisitions since Trump took office and undo those that have created highly concentrated markets, demonstrably caused harm to workers, raised prices, or reduced competition."

" the FTC will break up corporations that have accumulated dominant market share and are able to wield their market power in anti-competitive ways."

"Ban mandatory arbitration clauses.
Ban non-compete clauses.
Ban unilateral modification clauses.
Ban clauses that deny farmers and consumers the right to repair the equipment and technology they purchase."

"Bernie will raise up to $3 trillion over 10 years by repealing all of the disastrous corporate tax breaks enacted under Trump, closing corporate tax loopholes, and demanding that large corporations pay their fair share of taxes."

"corporate tax rate to 35 percent "

" same tax rate on offshore and domestic income and applying a per-country limit on the foreign tax credit."

"If this plan had been in effect last year, instead of paying nothing in federal income taxes:

    Amazon would have paid up to $3.8 billion in taxes.
    Delta would have paid up to $1.8 billion in taxes.
    Chevron would have paid up to $1.6 billion in taxes.
    GM would have paid up to $1.5 billion in taxes."


https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-and-democracy/

Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

sidd

Neven

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #604 on: October 16, 2019, 09:24:59 AM »
Quote
Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

Maybe the heart attack will encourage him take the gloves off and denounce the corruption in the Democratic Party (it helped Trump massively to win the GOP primary last time). Because if it comes to a second round, they will cheat him out of the candidacy again. And the herd will follow regardless.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Klondike Kat

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #605 on: October 16, 2019, 03:46:48 PM »
What is the employees do want to keep the company stock?  Will they be forced to?  Sounds like more bureaucracy to me.

Pmt111500

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #606 on: October 16, 2019, 04:33:05 PM »
Oh, Bernie's gone hard to the left. In speeches. Ok. That sort of talk would even here be considered pretty extreme left. So
* AOC - Social Democrat in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
* Bernie a hard line Socialist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics and not very far from a
* real Commie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-left_politics

Yes, there are differences between them.

Anyway nice to get some info outside the media corp.

Quote
Just in time for the debate. Now they really gonna go after him

Maybe the heart attack will encourage him take the gloves off and denounce the corruption in the Democratic Party (it helped Trump massively to win the GOP primary last time).


Democrats are indeed (Mostly) an odd amalgamation of soft right-wingers and very soft left-centrists leading to mixed messaging. At least it looks like that from this perspective. (leftie or greenish Finland)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:20:35 PM by Pmt111500 »

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #607 on: October 16, 2019, 06:52:54 PM »
How idiotic and wasteful can it possibly get? Well, this sure looks like late-stage capitalism.

Only one of many reasons why there shouldn't be billionaires in the first place...

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #608 on: October 19, 2019, 08:29:01 PM »
Rep. Tulsi Gabbard gets 2020 endorsement from David Duke

Link >> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep-tulsi-gabbard-gets-2020-endorsement-from-david-duke-2019-10-19

This is actually hilarious! 🥳

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #609 on: October 20, 2019, 08:05:37 AM »

Neven

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #610 on: October 21, 2019, 01:55:10 PM »
Tulsi Gabbard unites Putin apologists, bloodstained Modi, genocidal Assad and the U.S. far right

Link >> https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/tulsi-gabbard-unites-bloodstained-modi-genocidal-assad-putin-and-the-u-s-far-right-1.6870890

Time for Tulsi supporter to do the Tulsi move: Jump the bandwagon.

You don't have to be a Gabbard fan, but you need to be careful not to propagate unnecessary and untruthful smears, given that it's quite clear where they're coming from (and I know you're definitely not in that camp):



I think Gabbard is very useful in pushing back against the war machine and spreading some other progressive ideas, but there is only one possible president that will help the US go forward again, and that's Bernie Sanders. If he doesn't become president, it's game over.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #611 on: October 21, 2019, 05:23:15 PM »
Tulsi Gabbard unites Putin apologists, bloodstained Modi, genocidal Assad and the U.S. far right

Link >> https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/tulsi-gabbard-unites-bloodstained-modi-genocidal-assad-putin-and-the-u-s-far-right-1.6870890

Time for Tulsi supporter to do the Tulsi move: Jump the bandwagon.

You don't have to be a Gabbard fan, but you need to be careful not to propagate unnecessary and untruthful smears, given that it's quite clear where they're coming from (and I know you're definitely not in that camp)

You are not the only one taking issue with that post so i deleted it.

I don't quite get the issue at hand. That right-wing hacks support her is factual. Also factual is, that she can't be trusted. She is a hypocrite! She is all over the place. Anti-gay and pro conversion therapy today, LGBTQ supporting tomorrow. Anti-war here, pro-war there. Misanthropic and philanthropy depending on the context.

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I think Gabbard is very useful in pushing back against the war machine and spreading some other progressive ideas

Disagree, Neven. I don't think the left needs people jumping the bandwagon like this.

Quote
but there is only one possible president that will help the US go forward again, and that's Bernie Sanders. If he doesn't become president, it's game over.

Yep! :) He will become president IFF he becomes the Democratic nominee.


TerryM

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #612 on: October 21, 2019, 11:43:39 PM »
Bernie for Pres
Tulsi for VP


Bernie is wonderful on the domestic issues, Tulsi on the international scene.
Both are needed if we are to have any chance of making any headway re. AGW.




Today I'm more concerned with Canadian politics. Trudeau has been a major disappointment across the board. That said, he's the best that has any chance of winning a majority.


Canadian politics is more a game of trying to shut out the worst, rather than fighting to elect a green candidate who can't win a majority and is very unlikely to be a part of any government that is formed.


Between elections I try to influence the Liberal Party to distance itself from the DNC, and to live up to their peaceful green talking points.
Terry

Klondike Kat

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #613 on: October 22, 2019, 01:58:34 PM »
Bernie for Pres
Tulsi for VP


Bernie is wonderful on the domestic issues, Tulsi on the international scene.
Both are needed if we are to have any chance of making any headway re. AGW.




Today I'm more concerned with Canadian politics. Trudeau has been a major disappointment across the board. That said, he's the best that has any chance of winning a majority.


Canadian politics is more a game of trying to shut out the worst, rather than fighting to elect a green candidate who can't win a majority and is very unlikely to be a part of any government that is formed.


Between elections I try to influence the Liberal Party to distance itself from the DNC, and to live up to their peaceful green talking points.
Terry

I seriously doubt we will see either name on the ballot.  Right now, it looks like either Biden or Warren.  If it is Biden, Warren as a VP would unite the party.  If Warren gets the nod, the VP is up in the air (Biden is unlikely to accept second fiddle again).

TerryM

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #614 on: October 22, 2019, 11:51:13 PM »
<snipped>
I seriously doubt we will see either name on the ballot.  Right now, it looks like either Biden or Warren.  If it is Biden, Warren as a VP would unite the party.  If Warren gets the nod, the VP is up in the air (Biden is unlikely to accept second fiddle again).
The DNC are very effective gatekeepers, often eliminating candidates that might have been able to win elections.


A damn shame really.
Terry

Klondike Kat

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #615 on: October 24, 2019, 01:20:52 PM »
<snipped>
I seriously doubt we will see either name on the ballot.  Right now, it looks like either Biden or Warren.  If it is Biden, Warren as a VP would unite the party.  If Warren gets the nod, the VP is up in the air (Biden is unlikely to accept second fiddle again).
The DNC are very effective gatekeepers, often eliminating candidates that might have been able to win elections.


A damn shame really.
Terry

Usually they are reactive.  Witness the changes made after McGovern in '72 and Dukakis in '84. 

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #616 on: October 24, 2019, 04:19:50 PM »
A neoliberal ticket (Biden/Warren) is a guaranteed second term for Trump.

Mark my words.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #617 on: October 25, 2019, 07:26:01 PM »
Ok, since i trashed Tulsi for being so incredibly inconsequent and phony, let me also trash Warren. Because she is just the same thin flag in the wind.

Remember when she wanted to make the military green? What was that? That was a status quo talking point par excellence. Don't reduce the military! Don't stop the imperialism. Make the killing green she sais. What a pathetic asshole!

And then, when she voted on an overblown Trump military budget. Remember that?

Progressive my ass!

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #618 on: October 25, 2019, 09:15:56 PM »
Speaking of pathetic.

Yang just bowed to Biden.

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The only person who took me aside and said we really need yo worry about the 4th industrial revolution...

Both are right-wingers, so i guess it's a dream team anyway.

Jamie from the Majority Report has a great response to Yang that sums it up perfectly:

Quote
It's almost like the opposite of Bernie's tax equation where he is like "Yes, you are going to pay more in taxes but you are getting a lot more in services - with Yang it's "You are getting a thousand bucks as UBI a month but you are losing a whole lot more than that in the destruction of the welfare state."

and

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There are leftist ideas to the UBI and this ain't it!

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #619 on: October 25, 2019, 10:12:55 PM »
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The inquiry must be done transparently. I don't know what's going on behind those closed doors. We as members of congress don't have access to the information that is being shared. I think the American people deserve to know what the facts are, what the evidence is presented as the inquiry goes on.

This is what Tulsi said on Sean Hannity's Fox News show.

That's a Republican talking point and a lie.

Anyone still wondering why fucking Richard Spencer supports her?

Michael Brooks:

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I'm in non-f_around mode. If Tulsi takes two percent from Bernie's that hurts this campaign, you are a monumental idiot for supporting her.

gandul

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #620 on: October 26, 2019, 12:10:23 AM »
Ok, since i trashed Tulsi for being so incredibly inconsequent and phony, let me also trash Warren. Because she is just the same thin flag in the wind.

Remember when she wanted to make the military green? What was that? That was a status quo talking point par excellence. Don't reduce the military! Don't stop the imperialism. Make the killing green she sais. What a pathetic asshole!

And then, when she voted on an overblown Trump military budget. Remember that?

Progressive my ass!
Let me ask you, do you find Warren an inherently dishonest, indecent person? Flawed as she is, I find her and Sanders the most attractive to try to fight for real left (not necessarily radical) politics in the US. Yes she has her (mild) inconsistencies as politicial, but she’s years light ahead morally of Mayor Pete, Kamala, Sleepy and corrupt Biden, ...

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #621 on: October 26, 2019, 08:48:54 AM »
Nice collection:

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Not originally my post but here are some things people need to know about Tulsi Gabbard:
Tulsi Gabbard comes from a family of conservative activists, most famous for their opposition to gay marriage in Hawaii: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/tulsi-gabbard-president-sanders-democratic-party
Tulsi Gabbard has said her personal views on LGBT equality haven't changed as recently as 2015: https://www.ozy.com/rising-stars/tulsi-gabbard-a-young-star-headed-for-the-cabinet/62604
Tulsi Gabbard is rated "F" by Progressive Punch for voting with Republicans, despite the strong progressive lean of her district: https://imgur.com/wDhVNKq
Tulsi Gabbard was nearly a part of Trump's cabinet at Steve bannon's suggestion: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democratic-rep-tulsi-gabbard-consideration-trump-cabinet/story?id=43696303 https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/307106-bannon-set-up-trump-gabbard-meeting
Tulsi Gabbard has also been praised multiple times by Steve Bannon, Trump's former strategist and prolific white nationalist propagandist: http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/36352314/bannon-name-drops-hawaii-congresswoman-in-national-interview/
Tulsi Gabbard declined to join 169 Democrats in condemning Trump for appointing Steve Bannon to his cabinet administration: https://mauitime.com/news/politics/why-didnt-rep-tulsi-gabbard-join-169-of-her-colleagues-in-denouncing-trump-appointee-stephen-bannon/
Tulsi Gabbard isn't anti-war. She's a self-described hawk against terrorists. Her narrow objections center around efforts to spread democracy: "In short, when it comes to the war against terrorists, I'm a hawk," Gabbard said. "When it comes to counterproductive wars of regime change, I'm a dove.": https://www.votetulsi.com/node/27796
Tulsi Gabbard copies the rhetoric of Republicans: Gabbard voted against condemning Bashar al-Assad, president of Syria, and was praised by conservative media for publicly challenging President Barack Obama over his refusal to use the term "Islamic extremism" when discussing terrorism: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/28/tulsi-gabbard-slams-obamas-refusal-to-say-islamic-/
Tulsi Gabbard also copies the policy of Republicans, voting with them to block Syrian refugees: https://medium.com/@pplswar/tulsi-gabbard-voted-to-make-it-virtually-impossible-for-syrian-refugees-to-come-to-the-u-s-11463d0a7a5a
Tulsi Gabbard has multiple connections to Hindu nationalists: https://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/curious-islamophobic-politics-dem-congressmember-tulsi-gabbard
Tulsi Gabbard frequently repeats Russian talking points and works to legitimize Assad: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/tulsi-gabbard-bashar-al-assad-syria-democrats
Tulsi Gabbard was one of only 3 representatives to not condemn Assad for gassing Syrian civilians and the only Democrat: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/121/text https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/20/house-democrats-refugee-bill-social-media-backlash
Tulsi Gabbard has introduced legislation pushed by GOP-megadonor, Sheldon Adelson: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-adelson-idUSBREA2P0BJ20140326
Tulsi was later awarded a "Champions of Freedom" medal at Adelson's annual gala in 2016: https://www.thedailybeast.com/tulsi-gabbard-the-bernie-endorsing-congresswoman-who-trump-fans-can-love
Senator Mazie Hirono from Hawaii did not endorse Tulsi's 2020 bid due to concerns of Tulsi's lack of a progressive record. Senator Hirono said she would be "looking for someone who has a long record of supporting progressive goals" when asked if she will support Gabbard in the Democratic primary.
Tulsi Gabbard was born into a cult called the Science of Identity. It was created in the 1970's and is led by a white man named Chris Butler, but he calls himself Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa. Tulsi's own aunt has come forward and called it the “alt-right of the Hare Krishna movement”. To this day she is an active member and some of her campaign staff come directly from that cult. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/tulsi-gabbard-2020-presidential-campaign.html

Link >> https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dmwp7d/gabbard_abruptly_drops_house_reelection_bid/f55lxvn/

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #622 on: October 26, 2019, 09:08:24 AM »
Let me ask you, do you find Warren an inherently dishonest, indecent person?

I don't judge by character. I judge by actions. Her voting record is bad. Her ability as a politician is great. So the real question is, do you want a great politician doing the wrong things? Imagine Trump was competent...

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Flawed as she is, I find her and Sanders the most attractive to try to fight for real left (not necessarily radical) politics in the US.

She and Bernie are nothing of a kind. He is progressive since forever! He is on the right side of history his whole life. Consequent is the word! He is the gold standard.

She is neoliberal. That's a whole other political camp.

It baffles me how people can even think they are the same.

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Yes she has her (mild) inconsistencies as politicial, but she’s years light ahead morally of Mayor Pete, Kamala, Sleepy and corrupt Biden, ...

Yes, she is way way better than anyone mentioned ther on almost all of the topics. If Bernie wasn't a thing, she would be my candidate. But not because she is great but because she is the lesser evil.

Voting for the lesser evil will not bring enough democratic voters to the voting booth. We had this in 2016 and it will be the same in 2020!!!

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #623 on: October 26, 2019, 07:49:49 PM »
Quote
It's almost like the opposite of Bernie's tax equation where he is like "Yes, you are going to pay more in taxes but you are getting a lot more in services - with Yang it's "You are getting a thousand bucks as UBI a month but you are losing a whole lot more than that in the destruction of the welfare state."
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There are leftist ideas to the UBI and this ain't it!

I don't really care if you want to call it left wing or right wing, but replacing welfare programs with cash transfers isn't a net loss. Tonya Riley and Tom Philpott at Mother Jones:
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For welfare experts, this is where cash benefits can become a boon. “There are certain programs in place currently, which are deeply paternalistic, that tell the poor how to spend their money,” says Rakeen Mabud, a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute. “That paternalism, I think, goes away to some degree, when you replace some of those programs, the cash transfer program.”

“There’s a wealth of literature of the effectiveness of cash transfers over ad hoc welfare programs,” says Samuel Hammond, a researcher at the Niskanen Center who studies poverty.

Unlike welfare programs, UBI would also be much more straightforward to execute. “One of the issues we face is most people do not participate in every program they’re eligible for,” Elaine Maag, a senior research associate at the Tax Policy Center, tells Mother Jones. “In some cases, you might meet eligibility requirements but the program might not be fully funded.”
...
The government’s main food-aid effort, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), is a perfect example. “SNAP is huge and really important to lifting people out of poverty,” she told Bite. “But it’s difficult to apply for and use,” Eligibility requirements are strict — for a family of four, gross monthly income can’t exceed $2,665, or about $32,000 per year. Adults have to comply with a work requirement and time limitations, and enrollment is “not automatic, even for families with kids,” Lowrey notes.

As a result, in 2015 — the most recent year with government data — just 83 percent of Americans who met SNAP’s eligibility tests were enrolled in the program, and for the working poor, the participation rate was even lower: 72 percent.

gandul

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #624 on: October 26, 2019, 07:52:01 PM »
Well Warren and Clinton are nothing alike

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #625 on: October 26, 2019, 08:01:21 PM »
December debate qualification requirements were raised again to 4% in four polls or 6% in two early states. This one should manage to shrink the field a lot. Yang, O'Rourke, Booker, Klobuchar, Castro, Gabbard, and Steyer all would have failed to qualify for the October debate with these criteria. So unless one of them sees a jump in polling, we'll have a five candidate debate with Biden, Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, and Harris.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #626 on: October 26, 2019, 08:05:08 PM »
I don't really care if you want to call it left wing or right wing, but replacing welfare programs with cash transfers isn't a net loss.

I don't know what plan they are talking about there.

I'm talking especially about Yang's UBI plan which lets you decide between UBI or welfare benefits.

So please explain to me how you will pay your medical bills when you have decided to take the UBI and then you get a chronic disease? A cancer treatment for example easily costs you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #627 on: October 26, 2019, 08:06:42 PM »
Well Warren and Clinton are nothing alike

So how do they differ in their policy and politics positions?

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #628 on: October 26, 2019, 08:15:40 PM »
I don't really care if you want to call it left wing or right wing, but replacing welfare programs with cash transfers isn't a net loss.
I'm talking especially about Yang's UBI plan which lets you decide between UBI or welfare benefits.

So please explain to me how you will pay your medical bills when you have decided to take the UBI and then you get a chronic disease? A cancer treatment for example easily costs you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You're not talking about Yang's plan. You're talking about a fabrication of Yang's plan that you have had fed to you by people like Jamie Peck. Yang's plan does not eliminate Social Security, Disability, Medicaid, or Medicare. We've already been over this.

Yang's UBI is on top of medicare-for-all and social security. He proposes replacing unemployment benefits and food stamps (programs that can reinforce poverty by disincentivizing earned income), not the entire welfare system. And even then a person can opt out if their benefits are higher than 12k. It's somewhere in between your right-wing and left-wing versions.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #629 on: October 26, 2019, 08:32:19 PM »
OK, not medicare. I remembered wrongly. But still...

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Yang is mainly in the race to push his signature issue, a Universal Basic Income (UBI). Yang proposes to give every U.S. citizen between the ages of 18 and 64 $1,000 a month, no strings attached. (Well, one string: It makes them ineligible for other existing welfare benefits, and if they are currently receiving any welfare benefits they would have to give them up if they wanted the 1k.)
Link >> https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/andrew-yangs-curious-plans

Quote
In a February working paper co-authored with economist Hilary W. Hoynes, Rothstein found that while a “generous UBI” could replace the need for most welfare programs, it could also run the risk of redistributing funds away from the lowest-income families. The loss of disability benefits and Social Security would almost certainly put seniors and households with disabilities at a disadvantage.
Link >> https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/04/what-andrew-yangs-universal-basic-income-would-actually-look-like/


sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #630 on: October 26, 2019, 08:41:40 PM »
Again, Yang's UBI does NOT replace Social Security. Read his actual plans. It is very far from a "destruction of the welfare state".

yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/


blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #631 on: October 26, 2019, 08:50:08 PM »
From your link, Sedziobs:

Quote
Under the universal basic income, those who are legally disabled would have a choice between collecting SSDI and the $1,000, or collecting SSDI and SSI, whichever is more generous.

Where can i read the actual bill? Do you know that by chance?

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #632 on: October 26, 2019, 09:06:24 PM »
From your link, Sedziobs:
Quote
Under the universal basic income, those who are legally disabled would have a choice between collecting SSDI and the $1,000, or collecting SSDI and SSI, whichever is more generous.
Where can i read the actual bill? Do you know that by chance?

I'm not sure what you mean. There is no piece of legislation for a presidential platform. Yang's plan is largely based on this UBI study from the Roosevelt Institute: Modeling-the-Macroeconomic-Effects-of-a-Universal-Basic-Income.pdf

You can find SSI information here: ssa.gov/disability

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #633 on: October 26, 2019, 09:24:34 PM »
Yang's plan is largely based on this UBI study from the Roosevelt Institute

Wait, that FAQ page you linked me to ...  is the plan?

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #634 on: October 26, 2019, 09:41:38 PM »
Yang's plan is largely based on this UBI study from the Roosevelt Institute
Wait, that FAQ page you linked me to ...  is the plan?

It's the "platform". Compare to the "details" on this page: berniesanders.com/issues/jobs-for-all/

Actual bills are only written in congress. Candidates run on platforms consisting of policies that haven't been fully fleshed out.

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #635 on: October 27, 2019, 12:03:11 AM »
I'm disappointed in Yang's recent decision to transition away from private insurance slowly over time. I agree with Krystal Ball's explanation on why an immediate switch to Medicare for All makes more sense.


blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #636 on: October 27, 2019, 08:44:23 AM »
It's the "platform". Compare to the "details" on this page: berniesanders.com/issues/jobs-for-all/

The main things Bernie runs on are well thought out, and there are detailed plans for them.

The jobs for all program is part of the Green New Deal, which is pretty detailed.

Link >> https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text

Or another example, the MFA bill >>

Quote
(b) Table Of Contents.—The table of contents for this Act is as follows:


Sec. 1. Short title; table of contents.
TITLE I—ESTABLISHMENT OF THE UNIVERSAL MEDICARE PROGRAM; UNIVERSAL ENTITLEMENT; ENROLLMENT

Sec. 101. Establishment of the Universal Medicare Program.
Sec. 102. Universal entitlement.
Sec. 103. Freedom of choice.
Sec. 104. Non-discrimination.
Sec. 105. Enrollment.
Sec. 106. Effective date of benefits.
Sec. 107. Prohibition against duplicating coverage.
TITLE II—COMPREHENSIVE BENEFITS, INCLUDING PREVENTIVE BENEFITS AND BENEFITS FOR LONG-TERM CARE

Sec. 201. Comprehensive benefits.
Sec. 202. No cost-sharing.
Sec. 203. Exclusions and limitations.
Sec. 204. Coverage of institutional long-term care services under Medicaid.
Sec. 205. Prohibiting recovery of correctly paid Medicaid benefits.
Sec. 206. State standards.
TITLE III—PROVIDER PARTICIPATION

Sec. 301. Provider participation and standards.
Sec. 302. Qualifications for providers.
Sec. 303. Use of private contracts.
TITLE IV—ADMINISTRATION
Subtitle A—General Administration Provisions

Sec. 401. Administration.
Sec. 402. Consultation.
Sec. 403. Regional administration.
Sec. 404. Beneficiary ombudsman.
Sec. 405. Complementary conduct of related health programs.
Subtitle B—Control Over Fraud And Abuse

Sec. 411. Application of Federal sanctions to all fraud and abuse under Universal Medicare Program.
TITLE V—QUALITY ASSESSMENT

Sec. 501. Quality standards.
Sec. 502. Addressing health care disparities.
TITLE VI—HEALTH BUDGET; PAYMENTS; COST CONTAINMENT MEASURES
Subtitle A—Budgeting

Sec. 601. National health budget.
Subtitle B—Payments To Providers

Sec. 611. Payments to institutional and individual providers.
Sec. 612. Ensuring accurate valuation of services under the Medicare physician fee schedule.
Sec. 613. Office of primary health care.
Sec. 614. Payments for prescription drugs and approved devices and equipment.
TITLE VII—UNIVERSAL MEDICARE TRUST FUND

Sec. 701. Universal Medicare Trust Fund.
TITLE VIII—CONFORMING AMENDMENTS TO THE EMPLOYEE RETIREMENT INCOME SECURITY ACT OF 1974

Sec. 801. Prohibition of employee benefits duplicative of benefits under the Universal Medicare Program; coordination in case of workers’ compensation.
Sec. 802. Repeal of continuation coverage requirements under ERISA and certain other requirements relating to group health plans.
Sec. 803. Effective date of title.
TITLE IX—ADDITIONAL CONFORMING AMENDMENTS

Sec. 901. Relationship to existing Federal health programs.
Sec. 902. Sunset of provisions related to the State Exchanges.
TITLE X—TRANSITION
Subtitle A—Transitional Medicare Buy-In Option And Transitional Public Option

Sec. 1001. Lowering the Medicare age.
Sec. 1002. Establishment of the Medicare transition plan.
Subtitle B—Transitional Medicare Reforms

Sec. 1011. Medicare protection against high out-of-pocket expenditures for fee-for-service benefits and elimination of parts A and B de­duct­ibles.
Sec. 1012. Reduction in Medicare part D annual out-of-pocket threshold and elimination of cost-sharing above that threshold.
Sec. 1013. Coverage of dental and vision services and hearing aids and examinations under Medicare part B.
Sec. 1014. Eliminating the 24-month waiting period for Medicare coverage for individuals with disabilities.
Sec. 1015. Guaranteed issue of Medigap policies.
Subtitle C—Private Health Insurance Availability During Transitional Period

Sec. 1021. Continuity of care.
TITLE XI—MISCELLANEOUS

Sec. 1101. Updating resource limits for Supplemental Security Income eligibility (SSI).
Sec. 1102. Definitions.
Link >> https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/109/text

sedziobs

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #637 on: October 27, 2019, 04:56:51 PM »
The Green New Deal (which is also short on details) and Medicare For All are actual pieces of legislation in congress. They weren't written as Bernie's presidential campaign platform. In 2016 they didn't exist, and yet he still had a ton of support for his platform. The point is that elections aren't based on fully detailed legislation. Yang's proposals are also "well thought out", only they are based on UBI studies and current European taxation systems.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #638 on: October 28, 2019, 04:45:58 PM »
Sanders, Warren & Why The Difference Between Socialism & Capitalism Matters ft. Artesia Balthrop


blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #639 on: October 28, 2019, 06:19:14 PM »
Bernie Sanders Climate Change 1989 1987


gandul

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #640 on: October 28, 2019, 11:03:48 PM »
Sanders, Warren & Why The Difference Between Socialism & Capitalism Matters ft. Artesia Balthrop


I take your point.
In case Warren ended up as candidate, would you just not vote in 2020 as many people did in 2016 because of Clinton?
I know you’re no US (I think), just an hypothetical...

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #641 on: October 29, 2019, 09:46:56 AM »
In case Warren ended up as candidate, would you just not vote in 2020 as many people did in 2016 because of Clinton?

Well, let's see.

With Warren we have her steering the ship forward, in a status quo capitalist manner. Sanity will return to the White House. Most likely she will implement policies that are helpful for some people. She will ignore the real challenges the country faces though. She doesn't even see the problems Bernie Sanders points out for so long.

With four more years of Trump, on the other hand, there will be more kids in cages, more concentration camps, more NAZI supreme court judges, more religious fundamentalism, more destruction of democracy and public institutions, more corruption, less respect for human rights, ... you get the idea - plus the capitalist, inherently racist underlying systen described  for Warren above.

So no, of course, i would vote for Warren in this case. I'm not stupid. :)

Quote
I take your point.

That's awesome. Fistbump! :)

« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 09:52:07 AM by blumenkraft »

Neven

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #642 on: October 29, 2019, 11:20:07 AM »
If I were American, I would vote for Warren if I lived in a swing state, but probably for a third party candidate elsewhere (if there are any good ones, otherwise I wouldn't vote at all).

The problem is that a Warren presidency, or a Biden presidency for that matter, will be followed by something worse than Trump, for the reason that BK points out: Changes won't be structural, the system stays the same, and thus concentrated wealth will continue to grow and further concentrate itself. Which can only lead to one thing, as it does at the end of every cycle: destruction.

If Sanders doesn't become president, it's game over for the USA. Not that things will become easy once he is president, but at least there will be a small opportunity to change the system. If this doesn't happen, something much worse than Trump will come along.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #643 on: October 29, 2019, 01:25:55 PM »
Quote
Being in the top 1% of income, my taxes will go sky-high under a Bernie Sanders administration, but sometimes you have to be willing to fight for someone else, fight for someone you don’t know.

People are dying cuz they don’t have healthcare, those are people worth fighting for.

So by all means, tax the hell out of me.

A nation is judged by how it treats the most vulnerable people among us.

While I live in luxury, most Americans are working harder than I’ll ever work in my life, & get paid scraps for it.

It ain’t right.

Tax me whatever‘s necessary.


Via comrade @michaelsayman on Twitter >> https://twitter.com/michaelsayman/status/1188702321879875584

Klondike Kat

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #644 on: October 30, 2019, 02:12:17 PM »
Quote
Being in the top 1% of income, my taxes will go sky-high under a Bernie Sanders administration, but sometimes you have to be willing to fight for someone else, fight for someone you don’t know.

People are dying cuz they don’t have healthcare, those are people worth fighting for.

So by all means, tax the hell out of me.

A nation is judged by how it treats the most vulnerable people among us.

While I live in luxury, most Americans are working harder than I’ll ever work in my life, & get paid scraps for it.

It ain’t right.

Tax me whatever‘s necessary.


Via comrade @michaelsayman on Twitter >> https://twitter.com/michaelsayman/status/1188702321879875584

Yet, they fail to mention the larger number of people likely to die, due to inefficient, government-run healthcare. 

https://fee.org/articles/if-american-healthcare-kills-european-healthcare-kills-more/

SteveMDFP

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #645 on: October 30, 2019, 03:21:22 PM »


Yet, they fail to mention the larger number of people likely to die, due to inefficient, government-run healthcare. 

https://fee.org/articles/if-american-healthcare-kills-european-healthcare-kills-more/

The article cited is largely a collection of cherry-picked data points, which studiously avoids any big picture perspective.  The US spends roughly twice as much per capita as other advanced economies, with overall health and wellness statistics that trail most others, often badly.  The US "system" doesn't  get *nothing* from this massive expenditure, but it does get a few cherry-pickable data points.

US healthcare is pretty notorious for applying some of the most expensive technologies available for e.g., cancer care.  Note that the US *does* have a single-payer system, called Medicare, which covers everyone over 65.  It also has few cost controls. 

So, 89 year-olds with incurable cancer still get surgery+radiation+chemo (often "cutting-edge" biopharmaceuticals).  The approach is still undertaken, even when the expected additional life is only 3 - 6 months.  If health care resources are limited (which they always are, in any system), this is an utterly irrational allocation.  Medicare pays anyway, for all of it. 

There's really no such thing as health care that saves or costs lives.  Everyone dies.  No lives are ever saved.  What *is* saved (or lost) is years of life.  So the cost of "saving" that 89 year-old with cancer, for a few months, can pay for prenatal care that can reduce infant mortality for dozens, each baby for a whole lifespan.  This is a profoundly stupid way to run healthcare.  No other society does it, for good reason.

The article cited doesn't actually support the current, patchwork, irrational "system" of the US, it's actually arguing for universal health care with absent cost controls.

Look first at infant mortality statistics.  Look also at health outcomes over the lifespan.  Also look at patient satisfaction.  The US "system" is performing abysmally.  But yeah, if you're an 80 year-old with cancer or stroke, you can look forward to an additional few months of life, at horrific financial cost for everyone else.  Hurray.

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #646 on: October 30, 2019, 04:49:37 PM »
Yet, they fail to mention the larger number of people likely to die, due to inefficient, government-run healthcare. 

https://fee.org/articles/if-american-healthcare-kills-european-healthcare-kills-more/

Kat, every fucking country with universal-public healthcare has everyone covered, better healthcare in general and half the cost!

Explain to me, why Americans are too stupid to do what the world does.

(and no, i have not clicked your stupid link)

blumenkraft

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #647 on: October 30, 2019, 04:52:32 PM »
cherry-picked data points

At least now i know why Kat linked it. Cherry-picking is a good friend of his.

Quote
Note that the US *does* have a single-payer system

Those fucking communists. I heard the government even builds roads there.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #648 on: October 30, 2019, 05:44:10 PM »
cherry-picked data points

At least now i know why Kat linked it. Cherry-picking is a good friend of his.

No need to personalize the discussion.  His cited article takes an approach that has been bouncing around the RightWingoSphere for decades.  It's superficially persuasive.  Most people who advance these arguments are completely sincere.  They can cite dozens of articles to support their view.  It doesn't seem like cherry-picking of data points, unless one has read and studied quite a bit about health care delivery systems.  Only then is the subterfuge made plain.

According to the logo at the top of this web page, we're here to engage in interesting discussions.  Personally, I don't care to discuss other members of the forum.

TerryM

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Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #649 on: October 30, 2019, 08:00:49 PM »
Americans have no idea how terrible their system is. Canadians have no idea how wonderful their system is (at least in comparison).


It's not just the cost, it's the quality.
Terry