Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?  (Read 81345 times)

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1764
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 361
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #850 on: December 08, 2019, 04:49:58 PM »
. . .
They are all servants of concentrated wealth, and that's why they need to be smoked out, and measures need to be taken to deconcentrate wealth. Only Sanders offers a glimpse of hope of accomplishing that. Nobody comes even close to offering that glimpse.

Only Sanders?  All our eggs in one basket?  No other candidate can be considered acceptable?

I think most voters are more motivated by fear (of losing what they now have) than aspirations for a better society.  Whether Sanders' plans represent risk to middle-class Americans or not, I think his candidacy is profoundly vulnerable to highly-effective fear mongering by monied interests.

Meanwhile America (and the now many other nations headed by Trump-like leaders) are on an express train to devastation, tyranny, and vast suffering.  Stopping that express train must be the first step in the emergency, and this is politically achievable.  Virtually any of the candidates would act to halt that express train.  But if we bet all-or-nothing on a candidate who is vulnerable to scaremongering, we might well lose it all.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #851 on: December 08, 2019, 06:06:59 PM »
No other candidate can be considered acceptable?

For things to change you need someone as a president who understands the problems in the first place.

Only Bernie has shown to be consistently on the right side of history.

Literally any other candidate has been on the wrong side way too often and can't be trusted to do the right thing.

And, you also need a huge grassroots supporting the issues. Only Bernie has that.

So yes, there is only one candidate acceptable!

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #852 on: December 08, 2019, 06:45:31 PM »
What BK says...

Only Sanders?  All our eggs in one basket?  No other candidate can be considered acceptable?

Unfortunately, this is the case. No other candidate is acceptable.

Quote
Meanwhile America (and the now many other nations headed by Trump-like leaders) are on an express train to devastation, tyranny, and vast suffering.  Stopping that express train must be the first step in the emergency, and this is politically achievable.  Virtually any of the candidates would act to halt that express train.  But if we bet all-or-nothing on a candidate who is vulnerable to scaremongering, we might well lose it all.

You act as if the emergency started on the day Trump took office. The emergency started long before that, and Trump is the outcome. He is a symptom of a larger problem called neoliberalism. None of the candidates, except perhaps for a few, will do anything to stop the express train of neoliberalism. Either because they are unaware, or because they only care about their ambitions.

If you elect any of these candidates, and if they manage to beat Trump (big if), they will try to re-establish the pre-Trump status quo, which resulted in Trump. This will only set the stage for something far worse than Trump.

So, your proposed solution to stop the express train, will only turn it into a military-grade Maglev train. It is all-or-nothing, and incrementalism is nothing. Sanders is the only acceptable candidate. That doesn't mean he is perfect and that once he is in office everything will change and become better, but it's the only viable option.

If you cannot or refuse to understand this, I would really appreciate it if you'd go look for a forum where your kind of thinking is considered smart/wise.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sedziobs

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 390
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 61
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #853 on: December 08, 2019, 07:53:42 PM »
Should we start a new thread, maybe titled "Who will be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?" Is the Elections 2020 USA thread a better place for polling discussion?

The opinions of forum members are interesting, but will have no impact on the election. I'd prefer to discuss what is actually happening.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #854 on: December 09, 2019, 07:55:58 PM »
Quote
Pete Buttigieg Says 'No' When Asked If He Thinks Getting Money Out Of Politics Includes Ending Closed-Door Fundraisers With Billionaires

Link >> https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttigieg-money-politics-billionaire-fundraisers-1476189

Florifulgurator

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 324
  • Virtual world alter ego / अवतार of Martin Gisser
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 150
  • Likes Given: 100
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #855 on: December 09, 2019, 09:15:46 PM »
Biden is corrupt, just like Trump is.
Haha... Paradigmatic. Don't you see any differences or nuances between those two? Putting Biden and Trump into one box? Seriously? You won't better the world with simplistic either-or black-white logic. Trumputin propaganda logic, as I explained before. Strictly following the tertium-non-datur and Western simplifications of negation and nonnegation etc. is not always a sign of intelligence and rigorous analysis - More often than not it is a symptom of the ego's refusal to have a serious look at things and processes outside the logician's head.

“One could see as the goal of one’s life: abolition and delivery from all mathematics” -- Luitzen Egbertus Jan Brouwer
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 09:28:36 PM by Florifulgurator »
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #856 on: December 09, 2019, 09:42:49 PM »
Here is for everyone's convenience sake, a commonly used corruption-o-meter:

Does it smell like corruption? => Corruption
Is it only a little bit of corruption? => Corruption
Is it corruption? => Corruption
Is it rampant corruption? => Corruption

See, not too hard to understand, right? You are welcome!

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5664
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #858 on: December 14, 2019, 06:47:09 PM »
Bernie Nets Huge Endorsement Of 600,000 Families


blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #859 on: December 19, 2019, 04:28:04 PM »
OK, let's forget for a minute that Tulsi is a literal isolationist when it comes to foreign policies, that she is a homophobe, that she is lying all over the place, that she supports nationalists and racists, that she is jumping the bandwagon when she sees it opportune.

But you can't look away when she is not voting on impeaching Trump and justifies this by saying "it was a partisan vote". She might as well give Biden a fucking blowjob in public.

What a stupid fucking asshole...

[/rant]

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #860 on: December 20, 2019, 06:53:03 AM »
Bernie and Yang were the winners of the 6th debate.

Klobuchar, Biden, Warren, and Steyer held their own.

Buttigieg was the clear loser tonight. Finally getting flak on his fundraising among other things.

The clown of the debate was Sarah Huckabee-Sanders for trying to make fun of Joe Biden for having a stutter. https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1207885405850361856
She has since deleted her tweet. But as we all know, everything on the internet lives forever.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #861 on: December 23, 2019, 09:45:59 AM »
Only Sanders?  All our eggs in one basket?  No other candidate can be considered acceptable?

Unfortunately, this is the case. No other candidate is acceptable.

What's wrong with Yang ?
And didn't you used to fancy Tulsi Gabbard ? What changed ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #862 on: December 23, 2019, 09:19:11 PM »
What's wrong with Yang ?

I like Yang, even if I don't agree 100% with his policy proposals. But he doesn't come close to Sanders when it comes to vision and ethical framework. And Sanders has a broad movement behind him, Yang only has technophile nerds (nothing wrong with them, but they have blinders on and are not enough to change society).

Quote
And didn't you used to fancy Tulsi Gabbard ? What changed ?

Just as with Yang and his warnings concerning the fourth industrial revolution, I appreciate Gabbard for speaking about foreign policy. These are very important themes that need to be part of pre-election debates. But neither come close to Sanders.

As for Gabbard, I have watched her a lot, and I feel she sounds too rehearsed. Her tone is too monotonous for my taste. If elected, she might possibly do something about regime-change wars, but I doubt she would fight for systemic changes on other fronts.

Still, I appreciate her presence to further push the Overton window. Just as with Yang.

But if Sanders doesn't become president, it's game over.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #863 on: December 24, 2019, 04:04:34 AM »
But if Sanders doesn't become president, it's game over.

Sanders does not share your polar black/white position.
He believes, as all other candidates apart from Gabbard, in bringing people together :

This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #864 on: December 24, 2019, 03:20:31 PM »
I still favor Tulsi's foreign policy expertise. But then I'm more concerned with America's foreign policy than her domestic actions.
Tulsi doesn't have the gravitas to win running for the presidency, but as the VP she'd shore up any of the candidates.


I'd specifically pair her with Saunders.
An aged white male and a young ethnic female.
Saunders expertise is seen in domestic affairs, Tulsi's strengths are in foreign relations.
Saunders is from the North East & you can't get further West or South than Hawaii.


A match made in a Progressive Heaven. :)
Terry

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #865 on: December 24, 2019, 03:30:01 PM »
Terry, are you a hawk when it comes to terrorist crackdown (as in wars based on lies killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people)? Are you in favour of nationalists (like Modi)? Are you an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy? Do you think homosexuals should undergo conversion therapy?

If you answer those questions with no (which i assume), better stop supporting her.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #866 on: December 24, 2019, 04:19:37 PM »
^^
Well - isolationism might be preferable to interfering in everything that's comes visible on the horizon. As to the rest, none of these have ever appeared on my radar.

Sure we're talking about the same Tulsi?
I just read her campaign literature & none of those points were even mentioned. If she was really in favor of "killing hundreds and thousands", don't you think she'd at least mention it in passing?

This sounds suspiciously like disinformation, though I'm certainly no expert on Tulsi's secret agenda, and don't even claim to have heard a preponderance of her speeches.
 
Terry

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #867 on: December 24, 2019, 04:30:25 PM »
Quote
Gabbard identifies as a “hawk” on Islamist terrorism, supporting U.S. military missions against al-Qaeda and the self-proclaimed Islamic State, while opposing regime-change policies that she says create openings for terrorist groups.

Link >> https://www.cfr.org/election2020/candidate-tracker/tulsi-gabbard

Quote
A young Gabbard starred in an anti-gay marriage ad in the early 2000s that compared gay weddings to incest and bestiality, opposing gay weddings because “I can’t marry my sister or my brother.” The group run by her father also went by the name Stop Promoting Homosexuality. Gabbard previously issued an apology for her past record, emphasising her work on LGBT+ issues in Congress.

Of course she distanced herself in hindsight, but this can't be ignored

Link >> https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/12/presidential-hopeful-tulsi-gabbard-denies-conversion-therapy/

Quote
Tulsi Gabbard Is A Rising Progressive Star, Despite Her Support For Hindu Nationalists

Link >> https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/tulsi-gabbard-2020-hindu-nationalist-modi/


Terry, why do you think the Duke and the Bannon type of US NAZIs are supporting her?

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #868 on: December 24, 2019, 07:53:16 PM »
<snipped>
Terry, why do you think the Duke and the Bannon type of US NAZIs are supporting her?


Wasn't even aware that they were a type.


I'm glad that no one kept track of the things I was up to when I was 19! That was an amazing year. In retrospect I can't imagine how I survived it. I'd give you an overview, but I hardly believe it myself - and I was there!


I remember The Duke for his horrible movies & Bannon was the guy in charge of that Biosphere 2 dome scam in Arizona wasn't he? I wasn't aware that either had promoted any democratic candidates in any race - ever. ::)
Terry

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9109
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3598
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #869 on: December 24, 2019, 09:53:21 PM »
To win in today's twitter world, the Democrats need a snake-oil salesman with a better pitch than Trump.

Forget decent policies, forget reasoned debate, find someone to out-Trump Trump.

Trouble is, then the Democrat establishment is likely to find itself as the Republican establishment finds itself - in thrall to a demagogue.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #870 on: December 25, 2019, 11:46:05 AM »
Well - isolationism might be preferable to interfering in everything that's comes visible on the horizon. As to the rest, none of these have ever appeared on my radar.

Isolationism kills.

It kills refugees in Syria, it kills journalists in Russia, it kills human rights activists in Mexico and it kills democracy around the world.

As for "the rest", may you be more aware of your radar in the future.

And yes. Neo-nazi's are "a type".
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 12:08:06 PM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #871 on: December 25, 2019, 12:13:49 PM »
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

- Maya Angelou


I cannot figure out who the dems that like Tulsi Gabbard are. Or why. She is not a good person.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #872 on: December 25, 2019, 12:49:39 PM »
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

- Maya Angelou

Amazing quote! Thanks for sharing.

Rob, i totally agree. Isolationism = nationalism/racism -> scapegoating -> people die. It's just the (condensed) NAZI playbook. That people are not aware in 2019, which is after 1945, is sad.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #873 on: December 25, 2019, 06:09:44 PM »
I cannot figure out who the dems that like Tulsi Gabbard are. Or why. She is not a good person.

But she's still better than Biden, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Booker, Harris, Bloomberg, and all the others from the Wine Cave crew. What does that say about them?

But if Sanders doesn't become president, it's game over.

Sanders does not share your polar black/white position.

I don't think it would be very politically wise for him to say that if he doesn't become president, it's game over. But I can say it, with no problems. And if you disagree with it, you're just not serious about AGW or all the other systemic problems humanity faces. At all.

As for that video full of empty words you posted, I understand that Sanders has to play along, even though the DNC will stab him in the back again if it gets the chance. I wonder if there will come a moment where he decides to stop mincing words and take Corporate Democrats head on. And if he does, I wonder whether this will help him beat Trump. I think it will.

Because that's what the American people should be fighting: Not the 'other party', but the corruption in both parties. That's what the majority of Americans is fed up with.

If Sanders doesn't become the Democratic nominee and then president of the USA, it's game over.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3422
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 576
  • Likes Given: 277
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #874 on: December 25, 2019, 06:36:15 PM »
How long until the game ends if he loses? 2025? 2030? 2040?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5664
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #875 on: December 25, 2019, 10:21:03 PM »
USA hasnt been isolationist for a loong time. An US intervention has killed many many people, responsibility to protect doctrine is instrument of Empire, has nothing to do with protecting anybody except the military industria mafia.

sidd

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6201
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2253
  • Likes Given: 1892
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #876 on: December 26, 2019, 01:21:44 AM »
I do hope Bernie nails the nomination and the presidency, and I agree he's the only one who really means it. Considering the terrible situation in the USA for poorer folk as we keep hearing here with stories by sidd and others, the centrist and wall street types will not fix what needs fixing, not to mention the elephant in the room AGW.
However recently my hope of this happening has gone down quite a bit. All my relatives who are US voters - the soft lefty, the socialist lefty, and the AGW-minded lefty - say that Sanders is a has-been, has no chance to win the nomination, and if he does that it's a sure way to get Trump for another 4 years. It's still early and this is not a representative sample but for me it speaks volumes.

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5664
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #877 on: December 26, 2019, 06:20:26 AM »
Re:  Isolationism = nationalism/racism

how so ?

sidd

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #878 on: December 26, 2019, 08:32:14 AM »
You could get there by pure logic. When you are isolationist you are basically saying, "Only my countrymen are able to serve my needs" or "I don't want services from foreigners". This is inherently nationalistic/racist. I bet you can see that, Sidd.

But you'll also find prove for this statement if you look at the dynamics in society. Germany between 1933 and 1945 is there for you to study.

Racism, nationalism, and isolationism are the same side of one coin.

Sidd, nations and borders are arbitrary concepts. Authoritarians use these arbitrary concepts as tools. This is how you get brown kids in cages and jews in gas chambers. It delivers you the answers to questions that were never there in the first place. This is why we have to get rid of them.
 
Edit: And please don't make the mistake of thinking being isolationist and stopping imperialism is somehow the same. It's not!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 08:39:46 AM by blumenkraft »

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #879 on: December 26, 2019, 08:53:51 AM »
I cannot figure out who the dems that like Tulsi Gabbard are. Or why. She is not a good person.

But she's still better than Biden, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Booker, Harris, Bloomberg, and all the others from the Wine Cave crew. What does that say about them?

I would rather have a centrist, status quo democrat than a right wing talking head.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #880 on: December 26, 2019, 10:51:39 AM »
I don't think it would be very politically wise for him to say that if he doesn't become president, it's game over. But I can say it, with no problems. And if you disagree with it, you're just not serious about AGW or all the other systemic problems humanity faces. At all.

Neven, are you alright ?
Because this does not make any sense at all.
At ANY level.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #881 on: December 26, 2019, 05:47:51 PM »
'People Should Take Him Very Seriously' Sanders Polling Surge Reportedly Forcing Democratic Establishment to Admit He Can Win - "He has a very good shot of winning Iowa, a very good shot of winning New Hampshire and other than Joe Biden, the best shot of winning Nevada" said one former Obama adviser

Link >> https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/26/people-should-take-him-very-seriously-sanders-polling-surge-reportedly-forcing

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #882 on: December 26, 2019, 07:53:27 PM »
I would rather have a centrist, status quo democrat than a right wing talking head.

That's how you get Trump. Why would you want that?

Neven, are you alright ?
Because this does not make any sense at all.
At ANY level.

How doesn't it make sense? How much more time do you want to waste? If any of the centrist/corporate Democrats get the nomination, they won't be able to beat Trump, because they are the establishment that he allegedly is fighting against. But let's say they are able to beat Trump, they will do everything they can to prevent systemic changes, instead of promoting them. And what will then follow, is something worse than Trump.

Sanders is the only one with a chance of beating Trump, and then possibly, maybe get some form of systemic changes going. If the system remains as it is, it's game over.

If you don't understand this, if you can't even say that it makes sense on some level, but you disagree, then you are simply not serious, and a huge part of the problem.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3422
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 576
  • Likes Given: 277
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #883 on: December 26, 2019, 08:23:52 PM »
Even if Sanders wins, little is likely to change.
A POTUS has a tiny amount of power to make things slightly better, and a great deal of power to make things a heck of a lot worse.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5664
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 771
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #884 on: December 26, 2019, 09:17:34 PM »
Re: "When you are isolationist you are basically saying, "Only my countrymen are able to serve my needs" or "I don't want services from foreigners". This is inherently nationalistic/racist."

You seem to have a different definition of isolationism than I do.

Let me define what i mean by "isolationism" : independence from foreign influence, and refusal to engage in war beyond the nations borders.

It might be nationalist, in that it permits war in defence of national territory, but explicitly excludes foreign military engagement.  Why is that racist ? it makes no reference to the so-called "race" of any nation. Unless you define "independence from foreign influence" as "racist" in which case I have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic.

Re: Germany

Germany was very far from isolationist ... several invasions by Germany in the period referred to illustrate this.

Re:  nations and borders are arbitrary concepts

Some borders are indeed quite arbitrary in the sense that they have no reference to the people actually living there, rather drawn for the convenience of warring external powers. Sykes-Picot, Vietnam, Korea, Indo/Pak all come to mind. What does this have to do with isolationism ?

Re: being isolationist and stopping imperialism

Isolationism certainly is antithetical to imperialism which explicitly requires foreign engagement.

sidd

Florifulgurator

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 324
  • Virtual world alter ego / अवतार of Martin Gisser
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 150
  • Likes Given: 100
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #885 on: December 26, 2019, 09:37:20 PM »
If any of the centrist/corporate Democrats get the nomination, they won't be able to beat Trump,
Not everywhere. E.g. there is a NY swing district where folks are scared the Dems take their private health insurance plans away. No kidding - folks can be that stupid not far from New York city. A Medicare for All candidate would hand the district to Trump. (Reported by an insider friend there this summer.)
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #886 on: December 26, 2019, 11:43:23 PM »
I would rather have a centrist, status quo democrat than a right wing talking head.

That's how you get Trump. Why would you want that?


No obviously not. I'm voting for Sanders. But in the event where it is a centrist, status quo democrat or Trump, I'll be voting for the dem. In the event it is Tulsi (a literal right winger posing as a dem) or Trump, i'll be voting 3rd party.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #887 on: December 27, 2019, 05:18:42 AM »
Ktb, i'm the biggest supporter of a multi-party system for the US and i despise Tulsi just like you, but this is not the time to vote third party. Period.

Imagine more people would do it like this and Trump wins again because of it. This means more right-wing supreme court judges (at least one) who then turn the country right for the next 40 years. You would have a full stop on anything progressive. The stakes are too high.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #888 on: December 27, 2019, 06:51:29 AM »
Early Iowa Prediction Democratic Primary


Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 119
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #889 on: December 27, 2019, 06:55:24 AM »
Re: "When you are isolationist you are basically saying, "Only my countrymen are able to serve my needs" or "I don't want services from foreigners". This is inherently nationalistic/racist."

You seem to have a different definition of isolationism than I do.

Let me define what i mean by "isolationism" : independence from foreign influence, and refusal to engage in war beyond the nations borders.

Let me explain why I think your "isolationism" is extremely reckless policy and when it pertains to the US (with the world's most power military) will be globally catastrophic.

To see why, imagine most countries of the world (including the US) decide not fight any wars abroad. That means NATO will be dissolved, and the UN will become powerless. So all of the post WWII global stability is eliminated.

This in turn means that any strong country can now invade another weaker country, and nobody would do anything about it.

That is setting the world back to the times before WWI and WWII, when countries and despots were constantly fighting, and and we know what happened next.

So if you want "endless wars", preferably global ones, then "isolationism" is your way to go !

And for the purpose of the 2020 presidential elections, let me add that there is only one candidate that promotes "isolationism" and that is Trump.

NONE of the Democratic candidates (maybe with the exception of Gabbard) is "isolationist".

So for the purpose of global stability and peace : Vote Blue, No Matter Who !
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #890 on: December 27, 2019, 08:07:07 AM »
Ktb, i'm the biggest supporter of a multi-party system for the US and i despise Tulsi just like you, but this is not the time to vote third party. Period.

Imagine more people would do it like this and Trump wins again because of it. This means more right-wing supreme court judges (at least one) who then turn the country right for the next 40 years. You would have a full stop on anything progressive. The stakes are too high.

The only reason I would vote 3rd party is if Gabbard gets the nomination. She’s on the right politically. Trump is far right.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #891 on: December 27, 2019, 08:17:15 AM »
Right, Ktb. Since she is not going anywhere but 2% it's a hypothetical anyway.

I only wanted to emphasize the point that voting for a third party or not voting at all might mean 4 more years of Dump which will ruin the country for any change to come for a very long time.

 

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #892 on: December 27, 2019, 09:38:29 AM »
The only reason I would vote 3rd party is if Gabbard gets the nomination. She’s on the right politically. Trump is far right.

But centrist/corporate Democrats are also on the right politically, because they serve their donors and not the American people. So, why would you vote for that? Any Blue won't do, when it isn't really Blue. Haven't the right-wing Clinton and Obama presidencies taught people anything? Identity politics doesn't make you left-wing, it's the economic policies. When these serve concentrated wealth, they are right-wing. Leftism has ceased to exist in the USA after Jimmy Carter. Only Sanders can bring it back.

Quote
This in turn means that any strong country can now invade another weaker country, and nobody would do anything about it.

You mean like invading Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Haiti, Panama, and so on, never mind helping all the overturning of democratically elected governments all around the world? Please, take your exceptional-USA, war-mongering attitude elsewhere.

Enough about the isolationism BS. The US stopping its regime-change wars for corporate profit has nothing whatsoever to do with isolationism. And to call someone who wants to end these wars a 'right winger', just shows how topsy turvy things have become in the USA. And that's because hardly anyone takes a stance based on principles, but only on tribal divisions.

I'm not a great fan of Gabbard's, but if I were American, I would welcome her stance on regime-change wars, so that it becomes something that can be talked about, just like Sanders pushed the Overton window on medicare4all. Because the US has to stop influencing/invading other countries for corporate profit (sorry, Rob).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #893 on: December 27, 2019, 10:22:23 AM »
Quote
But centrist/corporate Democrats are also on the right politically

I was about to write that but forgot about it.

BTW, we should call the donors 'corrupter' (as in employer) and the politicians taking corporate money 'corruptee' (as in employee).

Unless we change the framing, Americans might never get the issue...

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #894 on: December 27, 2019, 10:26:03 AM »
The only reason I would vote 3rd party is if Gabbard gets the nomination. She’s on the right politically. Trump is far right.

But centrist/corporate Democrats are also on the right politically, because they serve their donors and not the American people. So, why would you vote for that? Any Blue won't do, when it isn't really Blue. Haven't the right-wing Clinton and Obama presidencies taught people anything? Identity politics doesn't make you left-wing, it's the economic policies. When these serve concentrated wealth, they are right-wing. Leftism has ceased to exist in the USA after Jimmy Carter. Only Sanders can bring it back.

Idk how many times I have to say this. I AM VOTING FOR SANDERS ffs. That being said, if he does not win the nomination I will begrudgingly support whoever comes up next.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3422
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 576
  • Likes Given: 277
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #895 on: December 27, 2019, 10:47:58 AM »
BTW, people, is whomever is POTUS really that critical? The atmosphere is not divided by nations. I am an American, and the thought that America bestrides the world is stirring, but we have only something like one-twentieth the world's population. America having most of the world's production was an artifact of post-WWII situation where we were the only industrial country not devastated. Europe has recovered, China has industrialized and that unipolar world is over.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #896 on: December 27, 2019, 10:53:46 AM »
Per capita, the US is still [one of] the worst polluter by far!

Edit in brackets.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 01:12:06 PM by blumenkraft »

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 16
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #897 on: December 27, 2019, 12:28:40 PM »
Per capita, the US is still the worst polluter by far!

Simply not true. Tiny countries with high standards of living are much worse per capita. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #898 on: December 27, 2019, 01:11:28 PM »
Thanks, Ktb.

Corrected my post.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
« Reply #899 on: December 27, 2019, 01:28:47 PM »
Idk how many times I have to say this. I AM VOTING FOR SANDERS ffs.


You don't have to say it any longer, the message got through. I just find the following interesting:

Quote
That being said, if he does not win the nomination I will begrudgingly support whoever comes up next.

If you're willing to vote third party, if it's Gabbard who comes up next (which I'm fine with and understand even), why wouldn't you do the same when it's Biden, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Booker, Bloomberg, etc who come up next? That's what I don't understand. If it's Warren, I understand (even if she is weak sauce), but why vote for Corporate Democrats instead of third party? That's what got you in this situation.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin