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Martin Gisser

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2018, 02:00:05 PM »
And I compiled a list of what is acceptable intervention :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg144534.html#msg144534
I agree with this list and would add:
Openly training political activists: YES
Countering or complementing meddling of others: YES
Supporting fundamentalist meddling (e.g. U.S. evangelical "pro life" missionaries): NO

An example for YES would be Arab Spring type "meddling" when the German Friedrich Ebert Stiftung is doing roughly the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ebert_Foundation
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:16:39 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Avalonian

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2018, 02:28:06 PM »
And I compiled a list of what is acceptable intervention :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg144534.html#msg144534
I agree with this list and would add:
Openly training political activists: YES
Countering or complementing meddling of others: YES
Supporting fundamentalist meddling (e.g. U.S. evangelical "pro life" missionaries): NO

An example for YES would be Arab Spring type "meddling" when the German Friedrich Ebert Stiftung is doing roughly the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ebert_Foundation

I normally stay out of politics threads... probably with good reason, but heigh-ho. This seems to me to open the door to meedling in order to encourage anything that one personally approves of. There is no acceptance here of the right of nations to self-determination, but there is an assumption that what 'we' have as our political basis in the best one. But what happens if our opinion is wrong?

I spend a lot of time in China, and now feel I know the country quite well. Yes, it's a one-party state with no 'democracy', and sometimes ruthless oppression of dissenters. What they have as a result, though, is stability, ability to do necessary but unpopular things, and the safest country you're ever likely to visit. In times of global crisis, a generally benevolent dictatorship might just be the best model to follow.

I'm not saying that Western democracies should all give up and turn to a Chinese solution, but neither would I support the training of political activists (for example) aimed at overthrowing a stable political system in China. I'm not arrogant enough to think that my personal favourite political system is the best solution, and I can see advantages on both sides.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: what gives a powerful country the right to influence the destiny of another culture? By all means make public statements about why they believe one path is better, but then let that nation decide without interference. Let them make their own mistakes* (if that's what they turn out to be), rather than deciding what is best for people in a different context, with a very different history. Planting a western political system into a dramatically different culture may well not work very well in any case; and the result, as we've seen all too often in the recent past, is chaos.

It's threads like these that really highlight how we might all be well-meaning, but have very different ideas about what that actually means in practice.


*genocide excepted (as in Rwanda etc.). That stuff has to be stopped as fast as possible, according to my personal ethics.
 

sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2018, 07:30:53 PM »
One aspect i see underemphasized in this discussion is US economic hegemony. This is, in it's own way, as responsible for death and suffering as US military interventions, indeed the former finances the latter and is supported by the latter.

Dumenil and Levy have a useful paper:

www.beigewum.at/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009_2_006-13.pdf

Michael Hudson has been talking about these matters for a long while:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2003/04/21/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-author-of-super-imperialism/
https://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/5/new_600b_fed_stimulus_fuels_fears

So has Chomsky:

https://www.globalpolicy.org/challenges-to-the-us-empire/general-analysis-on-challenges-to-the-us-empire/50643-future-global-hegemony-and-the-us.html

A more general critique of the World Bank and the IMF:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/09/the-world-bank-and-the-imf-wont-admit-their-policies-are-the-problem

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2018, 04:43:06 AM »
Rob, when, according to you, did the US do things in other countries that weren't okay?

Yes. In the list I compiled a list of what is acceptable intervention, I already mentioned Nicaragua as an example. Especially combined with the Iran weapons deals in the Iran - contra scandal. I think Reagan should have gone to jail for that.

But the bigger question is what do we want to achieve in this thread.

Do we want to just throw more examples of US intervention in foreign lands at the wall, in what increasingly looks like some fact-free echo chamber ?
Or do we want to look at specific examples and check the facts, so we can all learn something ?

Also, I think your question (when is intervention allowed) was relevant.
I compiled a list of when I believe intervention is allowed :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg144534.html#msg144534

Do you agree with that list ?
If not, why not.
And if so, when did the US violate an item on that list ?

That would be a real discussion.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2018, 04:54:10 AM »
And I compiled a list of what is acceptable intervention :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg144534.html#msg144534
I agree with this list and would add:
Openly training political activists: YES
Countering or complementing meddling of others: YES
Supporting fundamentalist meddling (e.g. U.S. evangelical "pro life" missionaries): NO

An example for YES would be Arab Spring type "meddling" when the German Friedrich Ebert Stiftung is doing roughly the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ebert_Foundation

Thanks for your opinion on this, Martin.

Comment on : Openly training political activists: YES.
You may be on a slippery slope there.
In the early 80's, the US (originally) openly trained the 'contras' in Nicaragua.
Considering that these guys openly violated may human rights (including murders of civilians) I don't think that was acceptable.
That's why I did not put this item on my list.

Comment on : Countering or complementing meddling of others: YES
This sounds to me like 'revenge'. And the problem with 'revenge' is that it tends to escalate intensity and violence, and that's why I did not put it on my list.

Comment on : Supporting fundamentalist meddling (e.g. U.S. evangelical "pro life" missionaries): NO
This may be a slippery slope. Who decides what is 'fundamentalist' and who decides what are 'missionaries' ?
That's why I did not put that item on my list.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 05:02:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2018, 05:51:55 AM »
Could we perhaps agree that at a minimum no country should meddle in another countries internal affairs in any manner that exceeds whatever meddling they'd accept within their own borders?
A kind of "Golden Rule" on a large scale.



This still doesn't address monetary enticements, or punishments that a rich country might inflict on certain segments of a poor country, or the bullying that a stronger military presence might allow.


Terry







Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2018, 06:30:18 AM »
Could we perhaps agree that at a minimum no country should meddle in another countries internal affairs in any manner that exceeds whatever meddling they'd accept within their own borders?
A kind of "Golden Rule" on a large scale.

I think that is fair.

What do you think of my list, Terry ? Any comments ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2018, 07:44:22 AM »
This still doesn't address monetary enticements, or punishments that a rich country might inflict on certain segments of a poor country, or the bullying that a stronger military presence might allow.

Sounds like you are making a strong case for Ukraine, in the face of bullying (militarily, monetarily and otherwise) by Russia.
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TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2018, 08:08:39 AM »
Nah
Nazis deserve "special treatment".
I see they swept through the Kiev's latest tent city of protesters that wanted the corrupt Nazis out.


At least the Crimeans are finally free from their years under Ukraine's thumb.
Terry


BTW
This is way off topic.

sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2018, 08:11:33 AM »
In a famous speech in 1967, MLK quoted (and i have not yet been able to track down the source, possibly a personal communication) a Buddhist in Vietnam:

"The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat."

That has been the pattern since. Now Major Sjursen demands that generals put a stop to endless war and tell their political masters and the people that the ends demanded are not achievable.

"The solutions aren’t in Washington, and, unfortunately, given the end of the draft and a castrated antiwar movement, the answers aren’t in the streets either.

Who, then, could put a stop to the madness? The generals, that’s who."

He does caveat:

"Don’t count on it, though. Odds are the generals will carry on with their optimistic, can-do, delusional talk of "turning corners," and "breaking stalemates" in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and who knows where else."

"Got a problem somewhere in the Greater Middle East? Well, the generals have a (distinctly military) recommendation for you: surge troops, advise and assist local forces, surge again, rinse and repeat! And when it doesn’t work out (it never does), have no fear – that general will have retired and grabbed a gig on the board of some defense contractor, and, guess what? Some slightly younger general, who just happened to previously work for the first guy, is now ready with the same advice: how ‘bout a surge?"

"Yet now, 17 years into these failing, fruitless wars, not one has the courage to "call BS," and turn in their stars. "

"Make no mistake, most of these generals know, I mean viscerally know, that the objectives set for the US military – "defeat terror," "build democracy," "stabilize Afghanistan," and whatever else – are nowhere near achievable."

"the generals and admirals – the sharper ones anyway – know this! They realize the "ends" don’t match the "mean"s and there aren’t any "ways" available to correct that stunning mismatch. "

He ends on a bleak note:

"So the generals will fail us, as they tend to do, and the US military will go big, go long, and go…forever.

To where, you ask? Nowhere fast. "

Read the whole thing:

https://original.antiwar.com/Danny_Sjursen/2018/03/05/generals-failing-soldiers-america/

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #110 on: March 07, 2018, 04:58:27 AM »
Nah
Nazis deserve "special treatment".

You are joking, right ?
You want to have one set of rules for one country, but if some country matches your self-proclaimed definition of "Nazis" then it's OK to invade that nation, kill its civilians, shoot down a civilian airliner, and annex its property ?

You are worse than Reagan and his support for the Nicaragua 'contras' that fought against 'communists'.

Quote
I see they swept through the Kiev's latest tent city of protesters that wanted the corrupt Nazis out.


At least the Crimeans are finally free from their years under Ukraine's thumb.
Terry


BTW
This is way off topic.

Maybe we can bring this discussion to the "Russia in Ukraine" thread :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2160.0.html

There are also notes there about how the Crimean Tatars disagree with your assessment.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 09:56:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #111 on: March 07, 2018, 09:49:36 AM »
Rob, when, according to you, did the US do things in other countries that weren't okay?

Yes. In the list I compiled a list of what is acceptable intervention, I already mentioned Nicaragua as an example. Especially combined with the Iran weapons deals in the Iran - contra scandal. I think Reagan should have gone to jail for that.

But the bigger question is what do we want to achieve in this thread.

Do we want to just throw more examples of US intervention in foreign lands at the wall, in what increasingly looks like some fact-free echo chamber ?
Or do we want to look at specific examples and check the facts, so we can all learn something ?

Also, I think your question (when is intervention allowed) was relevant.
I compiled a list of when I believe intervention is allowed :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2204.msg144534.html#msg144534

Do you agree with that list ?
If not, why not.
And if so, when did the US violate an item on that list ?

That would be a real discussion.

Neven ?
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #112 on: March 07, 2018, 10:38:50 AM »
I agree that this would be a good discussion to have, which was my point all along. Russiagate should spur all kinds of discussions, besides the focus on Trump. US intervention is probably the most important one.

The only kind of intervention I can agree with, is one where there's a long-term plan for a certain region that has a crisis that focusses on offering the local population basic necessities. So, not just keeping the peace, like the UN usually does, but building houses and sustainable agriculture. This intervention has to be international, not a unilateral venture by one country.

It would be a template along the following lines: Send in the military, enforce a ceasefire, then start the rebuilding process of 10-20 years. This template should be applicable everywhere, with emphasis varying according to local culture and traditions. The template shouldn't necessarily have to follow western lifestyles, as these aren't sustainable and people who aren't used to them, certainly don't need them (like us weaklings).

All else is meddling. If you want this meddling to stop, you need to look at what is causing the meddling: Resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization, all for profit. Take away the cause.
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sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2018, 01:10:36 AM »
Meanwhile the US Navy and Marines are sad that China is "weaponizing capital." Sure sucks to be on the receiving end. Which leads me back to the point that US power is often excercized through financial weapons of mass destruction.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/377270-navy-marine-corps-leaders-warn-that-china-is-weaponizing-capital

Meanwhile, the costs of forever war are not only unknown, they are unknowable. The Department of Defence is unauditable. There has never been an audit. Bob Corker asks plaintively, why the Pentagon can turn countries into craters but can't pass an audit. That sonofabitch never met a war he didn't like, but when it comes to dollars his concern is so palpable.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/377173-corker-why-can-the-pentagon-turn-entire-countries-into-craters-but-not-audit

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/01/pentagon-budget-government-spending-military

https://www.stripes.com/news/decades-later-military-still-unable-to-account-for-its-spending-1.282860

And here is a DoD accountant laying out the problems:

"If all those sources of information are faulty, how can modern auditors balance the ledgers? They don’t! "

Why don't they fix it ? Because of those sweet, sweet dollars:

"In the world of Congressional appropriations there’s a thing called the “expired appropriation.” And once the appropriation hits that date funds can’t be obligated or spent. The caveat to this is when their accountants can find an old error, or a cost that was not recorded properly. In those cases, they can bill current expenses against the old expired appropriation act. They’ll go back years and say “hey, this charge from 2012 never went out, that means we can use the money now.” Essentially, the dysfunctional accounting status quo allows them to squeeze more money out of the system."

"I think in the audit community it’s kind of a joke because it seems like things are never going to be fixed ... "

Damn, I'd like to be in a business where not only i couldn't be audited,  and there were no penalties to pay either. Except for that bit about killing children and other innocents, torturing people, and living with myself.

sidd



sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2018, 02:12:57 AM »
The reason that the Pentagon cannot be audited, is of course, money.

Englehardt at tomdispatch spells it out. Defense expenditures are welfare for the arms makers, who buy the lawmakers, who in turn never insist on an accounting. The gift that keeps on giving.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176391/tomgram%3A_william_hartung%2C_the_pentagon_budget_as_corporate_welfare_for_weapons_makers/

sidd

Human Habitat Index

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2018, 03:11:51 AM »
9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.3 TRILLION Missing from Pentagon

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #116 on: March 08, 2018, 06:57:34 AM »
I agree that this would be a good discussion to have, which was my point all along. Russiagate should spur all kinds of discussions, besides the focus on Trump. US intervention is probably the most important one.

The only kind of intervention I can agree with, is one where there's a long-term plan for a certain region that has a crisis that focusses on offering the local population basic necessities. So, not just keeping the peace, like the UN usually does, but building houses and sustainable agriculture. This intervention has to be international, not a unilateral venture by one country.

It would be a template along the following lines: Send in the military, enforce a ceasefire, then start the rebuilding process of 10-20 years. This template should be applicable everywhere, with emphasis varying according to local culture and traditions. The template shouldn't necessarily have to follow western lifestyles, as these aren't sustainable and people who aren't used to them, certainly don't need them (like us weaklings).

All else is meddling. If you want this meddling to stop, you need to look at what is causing the meddling: Resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization, all for profit. Take away the cause.

Four things on that :

First, your statement excludes humanitarian aid to countries not in crisis. Was that intentional ?

Second, your statement excludes training of the military of countries not in crisis. Was that intentional too ?

Thirdly, your statement excludes training of journalists in spreading free speech. Was that intentional too ?

Fourthly, for a country in distress, you propose to send in the military, enforce a ceasefire.
The UN did that in Bosnia in 1995. Didn't work out too well. Captured UN solders were used as human shields, and various atrocities (like Srebrenica) still happened.

How would you adjust your rule so that such incidents won't happen again ?
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2018, 01:18:57 PM »
Again, my goal in this thread, was to point out that this is a discussion that needs to be had in US media and society at large, and Russiagate offers a good jumping-off point. My goal wasn't to discuss it myself, as that's beside the point.

Nevertheless...

All else is meddling. If you want this meddling to stop, you need to look at what is causing the meddling: Resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization, all for profit. Take away the cause.

Four things on that :

First, your statement excludes humanitarian aid to countries not in crisis. Was that intentional ?

No, it wasn't intentional. Humanitarian aid has its problems, because it's often used to dump surplus food (so the manufacturers don't lose money) and kills local agriculture. Humanitarian aid is also often used as leverage between warring factions, and it stimulates corruption.

In my opinion, humanitarian aid works best if there's a comprehensive long-term plan on helping a region in crisis. Along the lines of give a man a fish or teach him how to fish. Stop the fighting and then get basic necessities, like housing and sustainable agriculture (as far away removed from western lifestyles as possible), back up again. Commit to that for 10-20 years.

I'm 100% sure that it's possible to set up a template, and have it executed by an international army of soldiers, diplomats, craftsmen and social workers.

Quote
Second, your statement excludes training of the military of countries not in crisis. Was that intentional too ?

Yes, that was intentional. Training foreign militaries is clearly an open invitation for meddling, because somehow the US always trains foreign militaries that ensure cheap access to resources, and a wide open market for US corporations, and plenty of weapon sales this newly trained military needs.

Quote
Thirdly, your statement excludes training of journalists in spreading free speech. Was that intentional too ?

Yes, this was intentional too. It's self-evident that 'spreading free speech' is also open to abuse, for instance, to sow discord in another country. Would you be okay with Russia training American journalists in spreading free speech?

Quote
Fourthly, for a country in distress, you propose to send in the military, enforce a ceasefire.
The UN did that in Bosnia in 1995. Didn't work out too well. Captured UN solders were used as human shields, and various atrocities (like Srebrenica) still happened.

Actually, no, the UN didn't do that. And neither did NATO, which was hampered less by Russian vetoes. But if they had properly intervened, for instance, by bombing the hell out of the SOBs who were targeting Sarajevo with howitzers from the hills, the fighting would've been over in no time.

I've translated several documentaries on Srebrenica, and there too, the central theme of the story is that the UN promised and threatened a lot, but in the end refused to do anything, essentially betraying Dutchbat and stabbing the local population in the back.

There's a poignant story of the Dutchbat commander Thom Karremans convincing Muslim fighters to retreat and not engage with Mladic's troops because the NATO would come in with planes the next morning and bomb the Bosnian Serbs. And so, the next morning at dawn, all the Muslims were looking up at the sky and waiting. Nothing ever came, and the Serbs could march all the way to Srebrenica and do the things they did.

I'd rather not talk too much about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the role of the international community, as it still saddens me to no end. Let me just say that I wish you had been there with me to witness the war in Yugoslavia up close. If it helped me lose my nationalism and get a broader perspective on war and how it comes about, I'm sure it would've shaped your thinking as well.

I'll end with the statement from my previous post:

If you want the meddling to stop, you need to look at what is causing the meddling: Resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization, all for profit. Take away the cause.
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GeoffBeacon

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2018, 03:53:21 PM »
Neven
Quote
Humanitarian aid has its problems, because it's often used to dump surplus food (so the manufacturers don't lose money) and kills local agriculture. Humanitarian aid is also often used as leverage between warring factions, and it stimulates corruption.

The Pollution Tax Association is a very small group - me and some friends.  We pay a (much too small) self-imposed carbon tax and give to charity from time to time.

Long before the current fuss, we have had doubts about "official" charities and the way the money gets spent.  The cash we have in the bank isn't enormous but we wondered if there was a way to get it direct to individuals. e.g. Choose a terrible situation (easy). Identify a few individuals, more or less randomly (harder) and send a small donation (difficult?).

Is there any charity, without enormous overheads that could do this?
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SteveMDFP

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2018, 05:36:39 PM »
Neven
Quote
Humanitarian aid has its problems, because it's often used to dump surplus food (so the manufacturers don't lose money) and kills local agriculture. Humanitarian aid is also often used as leverage between warring factions, and it stimulates corruption.

The Pollution Tax Association is a very small group - me and some friends.  We pay a (much too small) self-imposed carbon tax and give to charity from time to time.

Long before the current fuss, we have had doubts about "official" charities and the way the money gets spent.  The cash we have in the bank isn't enormous but we wondered if there was a way to get it direct to individuals. e.g. Choose a terrible situation (easy). Identify a few individuals, more or less randomly (harder) and send a small donation (difficult?).

Is there any charity, without enormous overheads that could do this?

Suggestions:
1.  Neven's tip jar.
2.  Any hardware needs that A-Team has.

I'm quite serious.  Neven's online garden here has been an invaluable source of education and discussion, a rare oasis on the internet.  A-Team's work has been absolutely stunning.

PS:  as I think you're in the UK, these would both qualify as "foreign aid," to stay on-topic.  ;-)

Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2018, 10:14:01 PM »
Thanks, Steve. Glad to see I haven't pissed you off completely.  :)

Geoff, I can only speak for myself, but in the past year, I've donated to three projects: Puerto Rico relief (Archimid had a couple of reliable suggestions), Health in Harmony (as suggested by Potholer54, the destroyer of climate change risk denial on YouTube) and Potential Energy. To the latter I've been donating for a few years now, although I'm not sure how much headway they're making in relation to overhead, etc. But I'm a sucker for efficient cookstove projects because they have so many advantages.

BTW, I'm not nearly donating as much as I would like to, and some donations also go towards alternative media.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #121 on: March 10, 2018, 05:01:18 AM »

Quote
Fourthly, for a country in distress, you propose to send in the military, enforce a ceasefire.
The UN did that in Bosnia in 1995. Didn't work out too well. Captured UN solders were used as human shields, and various atrocities (like Srebrenica) still happened.

Actually, no, the UN didn't do that. And neither did NATO, which was hampered less by Russian vetoes. But if they had properly intervened, for instance, by bombing the hell out of the SOBs who were targeting Sarajevo with howitzers from the hills, the fighting would've been over in no time.

I've translated several documentaries on Srebrenica, and there too, the central theme of the story is that the UN promised and threatened a lot, but in the end refused to do anything, essentially betraying Dutchbat and stabbing the local population in the back.

There's a poignant story of the Dutchbat commander Thom Karremans convincing Muslim fighters to retreat and not engage with Mladic's troops because the NATO would come in with planes the next morning and bomb the Bosnian Serbs. And so, the next morning at dawn, all the Muslims were looking up at the sky and waiting. Nothing ever came, and the Serbs could march all the way to Srebrenica and do the things they did.

I'd rather not talk too much about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the role of the international community, as it still saddens me to no end. Let me just say that I wish you had been there with me to witness the war in Yugoslavia up close. If it helped me lose my nationalism and get a broader perspective on war and how it comes about, I'm sure it would've shaped your thinking as well.

I'll end with the statement from my previous post:

If you want the meddling to stop, you need to look at what is causing the meddling: Resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization, all for profit. Take away the cause.

Thank you for sharing your experience during this conflict, Neven.
I'm glad I wasn't there in the mids of it.

But I do see that Bosnia 1995 UN/NATO action was slow, insufficient, and at times counter productive. That's why I posted that it "Didn't work out too well.".

I think much of the tardy response has to do with the UN, the difficult task of having all countries agree on some sort of action. That's why it took so long for the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) originally to be allowed to use force when attacked, and the UN did not even allow a no-fly-zone originally. So Bosnian Serbs walked all over them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force
And later when they WERE allowed to use force, Bosnian-Serbs took 150 UN personnel hostage and used them as human shields against air strikes. Then Srebrenica happened.
What a mess.

I think this failure in 1995 caused NATO to act without UN approval (which would have been blocked any way by Russia) when in 1999 Serbs started to ethnically cleanse in Kosovo.
Yet even here, NATO had to essentially destroy all of Serbia's military apparatus before Milošević finally threw in the towel, and not after about a million people were 'cleansed' out of Kosovo (IIRC).

I understand you don't want to talk about this much, but since you experienced this much closer than I did, your perspective on these two interventions would be appreciated.

Specifically, would it have been better if the US and NATO or the UN would not have intervened at all ? And since they did, should they have acted without UN approval in 1995 in Bosnia ? And what about 1999 in Kosovo ?

Incidentally, Kosovo and Serbia still don't get along. Latest incident caused an issue on the entire EU electric grid :
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/world/europe/kosovo-serbia-clocks-europe.html

[edit] Let me note that the US/NATO/UN intervention in the former Yugoslavia was not about resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization.
It was just about human rights violations.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 05:35:24 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
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gerontocrat

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #122 on: March 10, 2018, 08:54:08 AM »

Specifically, would it have been better if the US and NATO or the UN would not have intervened at all ? And since they did, should they have acted without UN approval in 1995 in Bosnia ? And what about 1999 in Kosovo ?

Incidentally, Kosovo and Serbia still don't get along. Latest incident caused an issue on the entire EU electric grid :
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/world/europe/kosovo-serbia-clocks-europe.html

[edit] Let me note that the US/NATO/UN intervention in the former Yugoslavia was not about resource grabs, weapon sales, corporate access to markets, globalization.
It was just about human rights violations.

The UN were late and often ineffective in the beginning, as were the EU, the US. But if there had been no intervention - so much worse. How were these inexperienced youngsters from these places and agencies meant to deal with the collective madness and horror Milosevic unleashed ?

But I can tell you that for your mental health you don't want to know what happened in every town and every village throughout former Yugoslavia.
You don't want to have to hear what happened to people, and, even worse, what they did.

After all these years I still can't find the words. On bad days, of which one will be today, I cannot walk past a house with an up-and-over metal garage door without feeling sick. To quote Forrest Gump " That's all I'm going to say about that"

Perhaps I have more in common with Neven than I thought.

There is intervention, however ineffective, that is motivated by care of fellow-humans and our planet, and then there is the rest - intervention motivated by the seven deadly sins.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:59:55 AM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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sidd

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sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2018, 01:08:37 AM »
Warning, satire:

https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/11/nicholson-turned-corner-afghanistan/


"Still, Nicholson is hopeful, he told reporters, that “we are on our way to a win” in Afghanistan, echoing a similar point made by Gen. David Petraeus in 2010, Gen. John Allen in 2013, and Gen. John Campbell in 2014.

Nicholson is widely believed to be in contention for a seat on the board of directors of NASCAR, where he could potentially join other fans of turning corners, ..."


sidd

zizek

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2018, 02:09:22 PM »



an oldie but a goodie

Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2018, 08:07:28 AM »
an oldie but a goodie

What is your point, zizek ?
That news article is from a time that Russia interfered militarily in Afghanistan.
That's before Bin Laden interfered in the US with very deadly consequences.
And before the US toppled the regime that protected him.
And before the US killed him for his evil acts.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2018, 08:57:03 AM »
zizek


He was a true freedom fighter.


I know because the great Ronald Reagan told me so, and the MSM explained it in detail. Osama richly deserved all the help that the Americans so gratefully supplied to him.


Those damn Afghanistan women would still be going to university, smoking cigarettes and dressing in western clothing if we hadn't run out the evil Ruskies.


The American institutions that had Bin Laden's back then are the same ones now telling us that Russiagate is so terribly important. Institutions that have no history of lying, ever.


Terry

sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2018, 04:41:46 AM »
Sanders and others are pushing a bill to stop the war in Yemen. The war party have their own counter bill, intended to defang Sanders supporters. Watch this one, it will expose those paid by warmongers.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-bogus-compromise-senate-bill-would-prolong-atrocities-in-yemen/

That is how wars are sold. Buy the legislators, then the war sells itself.

sidd

zizek

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM »
an oldie but a goodie

What is your point, zizek ?
That news article is from a time that Russia interfered militarily in Afghanistan.
That's before Bin Laden interfered in the US with very deadly consequences.
And before the US toppled the regime that protected him.
And before the US killed him for his evil acts.
That's your take away from this? Do you even know who the Mujahideen are? Jesus christ, would you support ISIS if it meant they blew up a MIG.


Quote
Question: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against secret US involvement in Afghanistan , nobody believed them . However, there was an element of truth in this. You don’t regret any of this today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, essentially: “We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war." Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war that was unsustainable for the regime , a conflict that bought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Question: And neither do you regret having supported Islamic fundamentalism, which has given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Brzezinski: What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some agitated Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?


Dekker, you are on the wrong side of history. You apologize for the violence and suffering America inflicts on the world.
All hope is not lost with you though. I highly recommend you stop posting and actually read about these conflicts, and the history of imperialism. Not just Wikipedia articles. Notable authors like Chomsky and Blum have already been mentioned in this thread. Start there. It will be good for you.


The data and analysis here on the Arctic Sea Ice Forums relies on the on the lifelong hard work of academics to accurately describe climate change. Those are the people we trust. Rarely do we see accurate portrayal of climate change in the mainstream media like fox, msnbc, cnn,etc. Nor do we see it with our politicians and corporations.

So, why do you flip the switch for war, terrorism, conflict, geopolitics? Why do you trust the rhetoric of MSM, politicans, and corporations? And why don't you trust academics?

It seems so strange to me.

TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2018, 11:30:23 PM »
Brezinski is dead, whew!


Talk about a foreigner that messed with American Presidents.
Now we're just waiting for Kissinger, Soros and Murdock.


Seems a little ghoulish, but the world would have been a much better place if abortion on demand had been prevalent many decades ago.
Terry

zizek

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2018, 01:06:22 AM »
I just realized Mika Brzezinski is Zbigniew Brzezinski's daughter. What a weird world we live in.

Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2018, 07:46:26 AM »
an oldie but a goodie

What is your point, zizek ?
That news article is from a time that Russia interfered militarily in Afghanistan.
That's before Bin Laden interfered in the US with very deadly consequences.
And before the US toppled the regime that protected him.
And before the US killed him for his evil acts.
That's your take away from this? Do you even know who the Mujahideen are? Jesus christ, would you support ISIS if it meant they blew up a MIG.
...
Dekker, you are on the wrong side of history. You apologize for the violence and suffering America inflicts on the world.
All hope is not lost with you though. I highly recommend you stop posting and actually read about these conflicts, and the history of imperialism. Not just Wikipedia articles. Notable authors like Chomsky and Blum have already been mentioned in this thread. Start there. It will be good for you.

Boy. I really struck a nerve with you, didn't I ?
Can you please just re-read what I said above and then tell me what is so offensive about it ?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 07:52:44 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
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sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #133 on: March 17, 2018, 07:57:02 AM »
Kill people and can't even own up: we see nothing defense.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/14/yemen-war-centcom-elizabeth-warren/

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #134 on: March 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM »
Kill people and can't even own up: we see nothing defense.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/14/yemen-war-centcom-elizabeth-warren/

sidd

Quite right.  The US is acting shamefully in assisting Saudi with atrocities in Yemen.
The US press commonly parrots the line that Iran is the worst villain in "state-sponsored terrorism."  As far as I can tell, the Saudi government is worse, but gets a pass.

It is fundamentally stupid on pure strategic grounds for the US to align with Saud-Sunni interests against Iranian-Shiite interests.  Why make enemies of millions of people when there's no necessity?

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #135 on: March 17, 2018, 11:00:19 AM »
Indeed, why? What on Earth could the reason be?

Profits, resources, access, power. One thing it definitely can't be: the interests of the American people.

People try to protest in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=b7X6Tili18A
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 11:37:35 AM by Neven »
Compare, compare, compare

zizek

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2018, 07:18:48 PM »
an oldie but a goodie

What is your point, zizek ?
That news article is from a time that Russia interfered militarily in Afghanistan.
That's before Bin Laden interfered in the US with very deadly consequences.
And before the US toppled the regime that protected him.
And before the US killed him for his evil acts.
That's your take away from this? Do you even know who the Mujahideen are? Jesus christ, would you support ISIS if it meant they blew up a MIG.
...
Dekker, you are on the wrong side of history. You apologize for the violence and suffering America inflicts on the world.
All hope is not lost with you though. I highly recommend you stop posting and actually read about these conflicts, and the history of imperialism. Not just Wikipedia articles. Notable authors like Chomsky and Blum have already been mentioned in this thread. Start there. It will be good for you.

Boy. I really struck a nerve with you, didn't I ?
Can you please just re-read what I said above and then tell me what is so offensive about it ?

This...
Quote
That news article is from a time that Russia interfered militarily in Afghanistan.
That's before Bin Laden interfered in the US with very deadly consequences.
And before the US toppled the regime that protected him.
And before the US killed him for his evil acts.
This reads as if America didn't know what they were doing. But they knew exactly what they were doing, as stated by Brzezinski himself.
You are apologizing for america supporting violent Islamic fundamentalists in order to goad and destabilize the USSR.

Yes, you keep on striking a nerve. Because you support the needless death and suffering of foreigners. You are a bad person. And you make no effort to rehabilitate by educating yourself on the realities of imperialism.

Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2018, 07:23:14 PM »
Let's not call each other bad persons. I think everyone here is of good faith.
Compare, compare, compare

TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #138 on: March 17, 2018, 11:37:23 PM »
Afghanistan students 1980;



TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #139 on: March 17, 2018, 11:41:10 PM »
Afghanistan before the Mujaheddin


Image result for afghanistan students 1980

TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #140 on: March 17, 2018, 11:43:27 PM »
Afghanistan - before and after


Related image

TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #141 on: March 17, 2018, 11:56:56 PM »
The costs of the CIA's interference in Afghanistan run much deeper than just the lives lost. Thanks in a great part to Brzezinski's Russophobia generations of Afghani women are living in conditions that were intolerable during the middle ages.


Think of your sister, a girlfriend, or any girl you care about being thrown out of university - then made to wear a burka. Genital mutilation, zero status as a human - it's not a tragedy, it's a crime against humanity.


USA USA RAH RAH BAH
Terry

gerontocrat

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2018, 01:26:20 AM »
Afghanistan before and after

Before what? Before the arrival of the Soviet Union 40th Army on 24 Dec 1979 ?

Yes, the consequences of US support for the mujahadeen will be with us for a very long time. But for you to pretend that the Soviet Union did nothing is stretching your credibility beyond my breaking point.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2018, 03:10:03 AM »
Afghanistan before and after

Before what? Before the arrival of the Soviet Union 40th Army on 24 Dec 1979 ?

Yes, the consequences of US support for the mujahadeen will be with us for a very long time. But for you to pretend that the Soviet Union did nothing is stretching your credibility beyond my breaking point.


The Soviets fought for and with the secular government of Afghanistan. The Taliban, with the help of the Mujaheddin were victorious. It was after their victory that Sharia law was enforced.


The "before" photo's are from secular Afghanistan.


The Soviet Union certainly didn't do "nothing", and it's a shame that they didn't do more. The young female medical students then, might be saving lives now, the female agronomy students might have developed better strains of wheat.


We'll never know, because if any survived they've been wearing burkas for decades. We'll never know because Brzezinski won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

Terry

zizek

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2018, 07:07:28 AM »
Afghanistan before and after

Before what? Before the arrival of the Soviet Union 40th Army on 24 Dec 1979 ?

Yes, the consequences of US support for the mujahadeen will be with us for a very long time. But for you to pretend that the Soviet Union did nothing is stretching your credibility beyond my breaking point.

There was no "invasion". The secular government of Afghanistan invited the Soviets to defend themselves against the Mujaheddin. The CIA armed and supported the fundamentalist Mujaheddin to destabilize and fight against the afghan gov't.
This isn't a controversial opinion.
you could say that the Soviets made a significant effort in expanding communism and control in the ME. And you could argue that they took an authoritarian approach to that. And I would either agree or have a difficult time refuting that.

But if you had to choose a side, Why the hell would you choose the Mujaheddin monsters? The fundamentalists that brought us Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and the Muslim Brotherhood. 
You would rather have the Mujaheddin than the communist government that were making material efforts to build a secular and equal state? All in the sake of fighting the red scare? You would rather choose Islamic fundamentalist authoritarianism over communist authoritarianism (and it can be easily be argued that the Afghanistan was not "authoritarian").



Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2018, 04:25:17 AM »
Afghanistan before and after

Before what? Before the arrival of the Soviet Union 40th Army on 24 Dec 1979 ?

Yes, the consequences of US support for the mujahadeen will be with us for a very long time. But for you to pretend that the Soviet Union did nothing is stretching your credibility beyond my breaking point.


The Soviets fought for and with the secular government of Afghanistan. The Taliban, with the help of the Mujaheddin were victorious. It was after their victory that Sharia law was enforced.


The "before" photo's are from secular Afghanistan.


The Soviet Union certainly didn't do "nothing", and it's a shame that they didn't do more. The young female medical students then, might be saving lives now, the female agronomy students might have developed better strains of wheat.


We'll never know, because if any survived they've been wearing burkas for decades. We'll never know because Brzezinski won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

Terry

What a blatant misrepresentation of reality.

Let's fact check some of your statements :

The Taliban ruled from 1996 - 2001. That is not "they've been wearing burkas for decades.".

Then "The Soviet Union certainly didn't do "nothing", and it's a shame that they didn't do more."
That's almost obscene. Just some examples from wiki :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

Quote
The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, was reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following a months-long campaign of carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets and Afghan communist soldiers in 1987.[247]

and
Quote
5.5 million Afghans were made refugees by the war—a full one third of the country's pre-war population—fleeing the country to Pakistan or Iran.[236]

and

Quote
R.J. Rummel, an analyst of political killings, estimated that Soviet forces were responsible for 250,000 democidal killings during the war and that the government of Afghanistan was responsible for 178,000 democidal killings.[237] There were also a number of reports of large scale executions of hundreds of civilians by Soviet and DRA soldiers.[238][239][240] Noor Ahmed Khalidi calculated that 876,825 Afghans were killed during the Soviet invasion.[241] Martin Ewan and Marek Sliwinski estimated the number of war deaths to be much higher, at 1.25 million.[242] However, Siddieq Noorzoy presents an even higher figure of 1.71 million deaths during the Soviet-Afghan war.[243][244]

Face it. Russia made HUGE mess in Afghanistan. A mess that fomented extremism which lead to decades more of violence and the rise of the Taliban.

And why were they there in the first place ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2018, 04:58:42 AM »
There was no "invasion". The secular government of Afghanistan invited the Soviets to defend themselves against the Mujaheddin.

Funny you say that, since one of the first things the Soviets did was :

Quote
the Soviet government, under leader Leonid Brezhnev, decided to deploy the 40th Army on December 24, 1979.[39] Arriving in the capital Kabul, they staged a coup,[40] killing president Amin and installing Soviet loyalist Babrak Karmal from a rival faction.[38]

Are you still sure that Amin "invited" the Soviets ?

Quote
You could say that the Soviets made a significant effort in expanding communism and control in the ME. And you could argue that they took an authoritarian approach to that. And I would either agree or have a difficult time refuting that.
Yes, and they did so by bombing Afghans into submission. With the results which I posted above.

Quote
But if you had to choose a side, Why the hell would you choose the Mujaheddin monsters? The fundamentalists that brought us Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and the Muslim Brotherhood. 

Why do you say that they were "monsters" ?
There is virtually no evidence that the Mujahedeen were responsible for any civilian killings during the war. Also they were not (religious) "fundamentalists" either.
They are the traditional tribal "war lords" that were just fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
As far as I can check the facts :
- The Taliban originated not from the Mujahedeen but from a jihadist teachings from Pakistan.
- And Al-Qaeda originated from Bin Laden's foreign influence.
- ISIS originated much later, and has very little to do with Afghanistan.

And there is no evidence of any US funding of Bin Laden's Al Qaeda.
The US preferred guys like Massoud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 05:21:16 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2018, 05:11:19 AM »
The Soviet politburo decide to invade Afghanistan

At least that settles that issue (which Zizak disputed).
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TerryM

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2018, 05:43:14 AM »
Are none of you old enough to remember the events as they transpired?
Terry

sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2018, 06:12:57 AM »
I am old enuf to remember wars decades before the latest Afghan War, and I have known people who lived thru the last British Afghan War. There is a book by Churchill called "My Early Years" which describes some of it.

But may i return to the thread subject ?

I think that the USA missed a huge opportunity in Afghanistan. If they had bent their powers on Osama, encircled Tora Bora in a ring of steel, they might have had him early in the game, declared victory and withdrawn. Instead they relied on corrupt locals, who had no cause to love Osama, yet less cause to love the foreign devils. He slipped their grasp, and I wonder how much of that colossal error was because they had already set their gaze on Iraq and even larger error. And now decades later, there is nought but war and death for causes forgotten, for that generation of Afghans is dead or powerless. Now all that is left is a generation raised in vicious battle, who will never forgive and never confine the forever war to their own lands.

Those errors were very profitable ones for certain groups, not the least some associated with the administration of the USA.

sidd