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Author Topic: US intervention in foreign lands  (Read 68468 times)


vox_mundi

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #651 on: January 08, 2020, 02:06:24 AM »
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31762/iran-strikes-back-missiles-rain-down-on-american-forces-in-iraq

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Iran’s Tasnim news agency is now quoting Iranian officials warning that if the US retaliates to these strikes in Iraq, Hezbollah will fire rockets at Israel — a threat to widen the conflict and bring Iran’s regional allies into play.

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Fighter jets have taken off from Iranian air bases, according to state media.

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CENTCOM is reporting 15 total missiles launched. 10 struck Al Asad Airbase, 1 struck Erbil, 4 failed.

There are also now unconfirmed reports that U.S. combat jets have departed Al Dhafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates and that the Iranian Air Force has scrambled aircraft. American aircraft appear to be patrolling across Iraq, while Iranian jets are remaining their own airspace, though.

State media reporting Iranian fighter jets have entered Iraq airspace

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has now issued a prohibition on all U.S. commercial and civilian air operations over Iraq, Iran, the Persian Gulf, and the Gulf of Oman due to the heightened risks of military activity and potential for misidentification.

M.A.G.A. -- Morons Are Governing America

Required reading for tonight: Alas Babylon.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 03:18:09 AM by vox_mundi »
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #652 on: January 20, 2020, 12:46:04 PM »
Since Neven does not let any MSM articles critical of Russia, or Syria, go through, here is an article from the "alternative" media, which investigates the use of chemical weapons in the Syrian conflict :

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Banned chemical weapons have been used repeatedly during the Syrian conflict and in most cases, if not quite all of them, the Assad regime is the obvious suspect. By its own admission the regime had stockpiles of chemical weapons, and almost all the reported attacks struck rebel-held areas.

Nevertheless, President Assad insists his regime has never used such weapons and is vigorously supported in his denial by Syria's chief ally, Russia, along with various elements on social media. They accuse rebel fighters of staging "provocations" – faked or false flag attacks – and making them look like the work of the regime in the hope that western powers would then respond militarily by toppling Assad.

But if rebels have expended so much effort over the last eight-or-so years fabricating chemical attacks in order to falsely accuse the regime, we might ask why no concrete evidence of these activities has so far come to light.....

https://al-bab.com/blog/2020/01/false-flags-and-fakery-battle-narratives-syria

A very one-sided opinion piece that follows establishment narratives to a T. It reminds me of the way I thought when I was still in high school.

Fortunately, the first and only comment to this article provides necessary nuance:

Quote
Brian,
Are you seriously suggesting Syrian rebels would not want the western allies to impose a 'no-fly zone' a la Libya or that there are not hawks within the US foreign policy establishment who wish for one? Hillary Clinton planned to introduce a no-fly zone in Syria if elected, and even the supposedly neutral and independent White Helmets have campaigned for one.

Have you considered how much damage the allegations of c/w attacks in 2013, 2017 and 2018 caused the regime? And is it really any surprise that Russia and Syria did not have total faith in the neutrality of the OPCW when its D-G was a Turkish diplomat and its Chief of Cabinet was British, then French, particularly given the ousting of Jose Bustani, allegedly at the behest of John Bolton?

Of course, each case has to be judged on its merits, but there really is no motive for the Syrian regime to carry out chemical attacks when the the gains are so tiny and the potential losses so huge, perhaps existentially so - the reverse being the case for the rebels.

Some of Assad's bases that stored chemical weapons were almost certainly captured during 2012-2013, so it is not unreasonable to suppose the rebels (particularly al Nusra) possessed Syrian government stocks of sarin. There are credible reports of this having happened. We also know of an al Qaeda sarin factory being discovered in Iraq in 2013. The only factory in Syria to produce chlorine gas was taken by al-Nusra in 2012. al-Nusra also captured an airbase with working helicopters in early 2013.

Most importantly, many al-Qaeda affiliated Jihadi groups exercise ruthless control over areas they occupy and their reputation for the kidnapping and murder of western journalists means there has been almost no independent media coverage on the ground. They could put out what they liked. Even the OPCW did not dare to send its FFM teams to the scene of alleged chemical attacks, so the most violent rebels had complete oversight of the chain of custody.

Not until the alleged sarin and chlorine attack at Douma was an OPCW-FFM able to take its own samples, look for evidence at the alleged attack sites and take control of the chain of custody. In the event, no sarin was found and, now, inspectors from the OPCW-FFM that visited Douma are saying that the evidence did not support claims of a chlorine attack either.

Concerns about political bias within the OPCW management structure are real and they need to be addressed. It is a vital organisation, but to be effective, there needs to be trust on all sides. It was not Russia or Syria, but western diplomats seconded to the OPCW who are alleged to have obstructed the Douma investigation, according to whistleblowers from the investigation team itself. These allegations need to be taken seriously, and widely reported. Ultimately, there has to be a public inquiry and the OPCW can no longer afford to be so secretive.

It isn't good enough to pretend that it is madly conspiratorial or the result of an unthinking Iraq reflex to be sceptical about some of the claims made by the likes of Jaish al-Islam and al-Nusra. Are the inspectors who investigated Douma crazy conspiracy theorists?

Famously, the first casualty of war is truth, and being sceptical about what vicious terrorist organisations with a powerful motive (and those they dominate) are telling us is surely an obligation for any journalist?

Perhaps some or all of the claims are true, I don't know. What I do know is that there are good reasons for doubt, and I really don't understand why you feel the need to take the line you are taking, which seems to be to want to inhibit dissent and to undermine the kind of genuine investigative journalism we have seen from Peter Hitchens, Jonathan Steele and Robert Fisk.

Having said that, you are one of the few prepared to put the information out there and to offer an opinion. For that we should be grateful. It would be lovely to see you change your mind a little, though. There would be no shame in it. Please think again.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #653 on: January 21, 2020, 04:54:11 AM »
A very one-sided opinion piece that follows establishment narratives to a T.

Did it ever occur to you that that "establishment narrative" may actually be pretty close to the truth, since, just like this article, most MSM news networks and research organizations and the UN and the OPCW and fact-checkers like Bellingcat use facts and evidence-based reasoning to find the truth about the war in Syria, and chemical weapons used there ?

Quote
Fortunately, the first and only comment to this article provides necessary nuance:

Quote
Brian,
Are you seriously suggesting Syrian rebels would not want the western allies to impose a 'no-fly zone' a la Libya...

The author of the article did not suggest anything like that, and in fact did not even mention a 'no-fly zone' anywhere.
 
Neven, if you are going to highlight an argument against all of MSM and against the many reports of chemical weapon use by Assad against his own people by reputable organizations including the UN, then please pick one that actually uses evidence to counter the points made, not some fact-free comment under a blog post that starts off with a false statement and gets worse after that.

Meanwhile, here is the result of a detailed investigation of chemical weapon use in Syria.
All 336 confirmed cases of them :

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Nowhere to Hide: The Logic of Chemical Weapons Use in Syria

https://www.gppi.net/media/GPPi_Schneider_Luetkefend_2019_Nowhere_to_Hide_Web.pdf
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 05:00:12 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #654 on: January 21, 2020, 11:05:11 AM »
Quote
Did it ever occur to you that that "establishment narrative" may actually be pretty close to the truth,

Yes, but never the whole truth. Douma is a point in case. The narrative was established from day 1, turns out that was a bit too fast, and alternative viewpoints (from experts/scientists no less) needed to be supressed. This is what happens when enough people immediately and uncritically believe establishment narratives.

Truth is not something that can be created by sheer will power, Rob. But faith can, obviously. Just believe hard enough and then it must be true. It just has to.
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blumenkraft

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #655 on: January 21, 2020, 11:41:52 AM »
Did it ever occur to you that that "establishment narrative" may actually be pretty close to the truth

Well, not in the last 30 years or so.

Objective reporting is not a thing! Even if the framework is ideal, you will never get a coherent reflection of the truth.

But the frameworks are not ideal. You have inherently biased for-profit monopolists dictating the narrative.

It would be endlessly naive to believe these machines would produce something close to the truth.
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Florifulgurator

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #656 on: January 21, 2020, 08:35:31 PM »
please pick one that actually uses evidence to counter the points made
Hahaha... evidence?
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #657 on: January 21, 2020, 10:18:10 PM »
Did it ever occur to you that that "establishment narrative" may actually be pretty close to the truth

Well, not in the last 30 years or so.

Objective reporting is not a thing! Even if the framework is ideal, you will never get a coherent reflection of the truth.

But the frameworks are not ideal. You have inherently biased for-profit monopolists dictating the narrative.

It would be endlessly naive to believe these machines would produce something close to the truth.

Thank you, but we want evidence here, not logical thinking.
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Florifulgurator

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #658 on: January 21, 2020, 10:46:42 PM »
Logic alone doesn't cut it. Especially gut logic. Particularly pernicious is applying either/or black/white (tertium non datur) logic to the vagaries of real life.
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Neven

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #659 on: January 21, 2020, 11:35:06 PM »
Particularly pernicious is applying either/or black/white (tertium non datur) logic to the vagaries of real life.

You mean like Rob is doing?
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sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #660 on: January 22, 2020, 01:29:11 AM »
OPCW inspector testimony to UN Security Council: what chemical attack

"dismissal of all the inspectors who had been on the team deployed to locations in Douma and had been following up with their findings and analysis."

"The findings of the final FFM report were contradictory, were a complete turn-around, with what the team had understood collectively. During and after the Douma deployments and by the time of release of the interim report in July 2018 our understanding was that we had serious misgivings that a chemical attack had occurred."

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/un-security-council-hears-opcw-inspector-testimony-about-the-manipulation-of-chemical-attack-reports.html

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Rob Dekker

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #661 on: January 22, 2020, 09:42:33 AM »
Did it ever occur to you that that "establishment narrative" may actually be pretty close to the truth

Well, not in the last 30 years or so.

I meant for this particular chemical attack on Douma, April 7, 2018, in which at least 43 people were killed.
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blumenkraft

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #662 on: January 22, 2020, 09:49:34 AM »
No, Rob, that was a statement meant generally.

But it applies to this case too. I don't know what happened there and there is a lot to question about the narratives spread.


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sidd

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Re: US intervention in foreign lands
« Reply #663 on: February 04, 2020, 01:06:18 AM »
Duffelblog (warning; satire): USA and Taliban make a deal

"The United States has agreed to sign a peace deal with the Taliban so long as the Taliban agrees to maintain a permanent state of war with the United States, officials from both sides announced today."

“We will continue to bomb the Taliban until they agree to let us bomb them forever.”

https://www.duffelblog.com/2020/01/pretzel-logic-of-the-forever-war/

sidd