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Author Topic: Different way of charting equivalent points in time.  (Read 669 times)

LRC1962

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Different way of charting equivalent points in time.
« on: March 04, 2018, 01:05:43 PM »
In https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2223.250.html a discussion got going on what to do about Feb. 29. after a page or more the valid decision was made as off topic. I MHO A more valid scientific approach, although fitting it in spreadsheet far more difficult in some ways, would be to drop time references and replace it with degrees/minutes/seconds. Much like the longitudinal lines used to describe the earth's surface, you could also brake up the rotation around the sun in a similar way. Therefore to compare a 100 years ago to today, you find the degree point the earth is now at in relation to the sun and take it back 100 rotations. You then will end up with point to point comparisons, not having to figure out what to do with leap year. Or as in histories case the differences in the variety calendars man has created such as the Julian, Revised Julian or Gregorian Calendars.
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oren

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Re: Different way of charting equivalent points in time.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2018, 02:05:23 PM »
In theory you are probably right, but in practice the margin of error of the data in question, such as volume, area and extent, is higher than the correction you are trying to add, while the complexity of the approach would mean that most hobby excel scientists would avoid using it,  or else would avoid posting any charts. There are probably other applications in which such an accurate though complex approach is indeed the way to go.

Pmt111500

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Re: Different way of charting equivalent points in time.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2018, 02:22:52 PM »
The system you propose would then have wider angles per day during winter months, yes? This is of course not a huge problem, as each angle of the day could be divided to the ~24 hours a day takes.

In Marine Biology, there could be a need for a lunar equivalent of this system, or in Ecology and likely also Medicine it's (as far as i understand) currently pretty common to use the local noon as the center of the day (circadian rythms, remembering the spelling hopefully correctly). At least many behaviors of animals depend on the hour of sun. So there could be a need to develop such calendars for their use (probably already there are some and i just don't know of them). Fixing the start of the year to the average solar equinox or solstice sounds like a good idea wrt terrerstrial ecology, at least.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 03:15:40 PM by Pmt111500 »
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LRC1962

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Re: Different way of charting equivalent points in time.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 04:40:21 PM »
The system you propose would then have wider angles per day during winter months, yes? This is of course not a huge problem, as each angle of the day could be divided to the ~24 hours a day takes.

Actually no. For the Arctic which is our main focus think of a protractor standing on edge on your desk. The 0o point is the spring equinox. Anywhere above the Arctic circle no matter what time of day it is the sun is on the horizon. At the 90o point the sun is at its highest point no matter where you are. At the 180o point the sun is back on the horizon or the fall equinox.
Just like in the lower latitudes you will have a dawn and twilight. But, as long as you are above the Arctic circle this all occurs only once a year. Then as amateurs it then can be translated to what you experience in a 24 hour day. the hottest part of the day is not when the sun is directly above, but an hour or 2 after, because it takes time for the suns heat that is shining directly above to take affect. The same for the cold. The coldest time of the night is not midnight even though that is the time when the most heat can be lost, it is closer to just before dawn. Using the 360oapproach although very difficult to chart, you are actually expressing where the sun is in relation to the sky.
This is very similar to how weather forecasters express the weather every day. The lows are always when the temperatures are traditionally the coldest part of the day. the highs are in terms of when it is hottest. Often weather events are explained as to those 2 points. For example tornadoes are almost always late afternoon early evening. Why? That is just after the hottest time of day  and when you have the greatest temperature differences between 2 close locations. This causes the greatest turbulence in the skies.
Edit: When it comes to the Arctic and Antarctica we have to get away from thinking in terms of the 24 hour day in both those locations. If you think of day as one period of sun and one period of dark then you have only one day a year. To get a better understanding of what is happening when and why we need to get an understanding of that basic fact.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 05:05:43 PM by LRC1962 »
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Pmt111500

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Re: Different way of charting equivalent points in time.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 06:19:24 PM »
Angle of Tau/365.2425/24/60/60 to equal a second? Well, why not. We get rid of stupid zeros by marking the change of the year by circle constant and its multiples. Then it'd be just remembering which fractions mean which day and hour and minute... It could work in strict scientific context, i guess, but not elsewhere.

Lunisolar calendars are fun to think of but when you realise the months place will vary by a forthnight wrt sun the idea starts to sound less appealing. However I'm of the opinion a relatively simple lunisolar calendar could be built that retains the good parts of the gregorian.
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