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Tom_Mazanec

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Abortion
« on: October 12, 2020, 03:39:37 PM »
The Preeminent Issue of Our Time
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/faith-abortion-and-voting-part-1
Quote
The Church—and common moral sense—says that one social issue rightly deserves political consideration before and above all others
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 03:40:52 PM »
Five Rules for Catholic Politicians
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/faith-abortion-and-voting-part-2
Quote
The preeminence of abortion as a social issue places grave obligations on Catholic politicians—and on voters to evaluate them
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 03:42:07 PM »
Three Rules for Catholic Voters
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/faith-abortion-and-voting-part-3
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Our bishops say that abortion is the preeminent social issue. What does that mean for us on Election Day?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2020, 03:43:18 PM »
Can Catholics Vote for Pro-Choicers?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/faith-abortion-and-voting-part-4
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Our vote is a form of cooperation in our leaders' governing decisions. Here's how we navigate this moral duty.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 03:44:35 PM »
What About the ‘Root Causes’ of Abortion?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/faith-abortion-and-voting-part-5
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Is it plausible that candidates who support legal abortion are actually more "pro-life" because they favor welfare programs that reduce abortions?
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etienne

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 06:46:54 PM »
Life is complicate, I know Catholics who support death penalty, I know Catholics driving big SUVs, I know Catholics taking drugs, I know Catholics using the service of sex workers... there are even stories of priest raping nuns, buying products that are not fair trade... Abortion is awful, but I don't believe that it is an issue that should excuse any other misbehavior of a politician.

In the Bible, there is a place where Jesus says that the one that is without sin should through the first stone to punish some sexual misbehavior. Let's keep that in mind.

The prohibition of alcohol was not a great success, let's try not to repeat history with abortion. The first step would be to accept that girls are pregnant and give their children in adoption, but I don't believe that many Catholics are ready to accept it.
 

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2020, 06:55:03 PM »
I am sure there are Catholics who use sex workers. There are catholics who commit virtually any sin. That doesn't make that right.
The only reason abortion is an appropriate topic for this forum is because:
A) It is about Arctic Sea Ice
B) ASI is being annihilated by Anthropogenic Global Warming
C) The only way to stop AGW is by transforming our civilization's behavior
D) The way to alter civilization is by voting
E) For the reasons given in the first five posts of this thread, abortion is my determining voting issue.

EDIT: I would like to point this out:
Quote
Nota Bene
It is wrongly argued that a basket of negotiable goods is proportionate to a non-negotiable good. However there is no proportion between the two. Where human life (and death) is concerned, preventing an imminent nuclear war may be seriously proportionate to the killing of 1 million innocents a year by abortion, but no collection of negotiables issues can be proportionate.
https://www.ewtn.com/vote/general-moral-principles.asp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 08:30:45 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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etienne

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 09:04:26 PM »
Well, I'm sorry to tell you that I'm scared that the actual president if reelected could start a nuclear war. Furthermore if Covid continues that way, you will get your million death  and also quite many AGW death.
Is abortion worse than extinction ?
I don't understand how you can trust a guy who lies all the time and used to be pro choice untill it was not helping him anymore.

FrostKing70

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2020, 09:29:49 PM »
I would agree that global climate change and all of the associated effects are the issue of our time.   It won't make much difference if you are pro-life or not once the climate disasters continue to increase in frequency and destruction, forcing millions of people to lose their livelihoods, and in many cases, their lives.  This will then lead to climate migration, and likely more nationalism, to protect the people who are already there.

It is a woman's body and her right to choose.

etienne

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2020, 09:50:15 PM »
A ban on abortion will only make it impossible for poor people. The other ones will go abroad.

Poor people are always the victims. In the Old Testament, the idea that the population suffers because of the sins of the king is often repeated. I believe that it is true, it's not the taxi driver that chose to have a combustion engine, but he will suffer more than the people who decided that oil was the way to make it work.

Here it would be the same, the poor will have kids that they can't feed, and the rich will abort abroad, just because the rich decided that abortion was a sin worse than any other.

I never said that abortion is ok, I just said that our society doesn't give any choice to many people, so we have to live with it.

If you really are against abortion, the way to do it is sexual education as well as free homes and healthcare for single mothers,  men ready to marry single mothers and to adopt their kids.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:58:10 PM by etienne »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2020, 10:22:29 PM »
Quote
I don't understand how you can trust a guy who lies all the time and used to be pro choice untill it was not helping him anymore.
Trump is prolife now. Biden is still prochoice.

Quote
It is a woman's body and her right to choose.
No, it is the baby's body. The baby is not given the right to choose to live in our country.

Quote
If you really are against abortion, the way to do it is sexual education as well as free homes and healthcare for single mothers,  men ready to marry single mothers and to adopt their kids.
Go for it.

EDIT:
Quote
Well, I'm sorry to tell you that I'm scared that the actual president if reelected could start a nuclear war. Furthermore if Covid continues that way, you will get your million death  and also quite many AGW death.
These are future hypotheticals, and abortions are present realities.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 10:32:01 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2020, 10:38:33 PM »
I find this hardcore prolife viewpoint tedious, and pointless.

I see no path where the religious zealots take over, abolish abortion, and do no harm. We end up with theocracy and something akin to Sharia law.  On the other hand, the moderate approach would be to advocate for abortion to be safe, widely available, and rare.  Working towards a set of policies to optimize the availability of safe abortion as a last resort, and all possible services to make it unnecessary would do far greater good. 

Of course you would first have to get over yourself.

Admit, for instance, that there is a balance somewhere between the rights of an unborn child, and the rights of the person creating the unborn child.


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 10:47:18 PM »
Quote
Admit, for instance, that there is a balance somewhere between the rights of an unborn child, and the rights of the person creating the unborn child.
If you create a child you assume a responsibility for that child.
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kassy

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 10:59:43 PM »
Tom you have been asked before not to post about these belief type things before.
If you go on the internet you will find many things you do not agree with.
We know your point by now and most don´t care because they have different values.

This is not the place for those discussions.

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Neven

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 11:29:41 PM »
I agree and thus locking this topic.

If you're pro-life, you cannot vote for either Biden or Trump. They're both lying conmen.
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