Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 84816 times)

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #400 on: August 07, 2018, 04:33:14 PM »
Don't ban Alex Jones, control his brain.
https://bigthink.com/aeon-ideas/remote-control-of-the-brain-is-coming-how-will-we-use-it
Quote
In the past couple of years, researchers have pioneered a newer technique using low-frequency radio waves or a magnetic field, both of which can penetrate the body without causing damage. The waves serve to heat iron oxide nanoparticles injected or genetically targeted to the body region of interest. In a process similar to optogenetics, the heated nanoparticles open an ion channel called TRPV (transient receptor potential vanilloid), allowing calcium ions into the cell.

It seems only a matter of time before we use similar technology to treat neurological and mental health problems originating in the brain. Toward this end, some researchers are working with gold nanoparticles, which, when exposed to special light, can generate enough heat to make a neuron fire without the need to alter its genes.   

More research is needed, but these systems are potentially more precise and less invasive than existing techniques for altering brain activity such as deep brain stimulation. With so much progress on a variety of fronts, some form of human mind control – and the treatments and benefits it confers – should be here before long.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1465
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 198
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #401 on: August 07, 2018, 05:53:26 PM »

Quote
You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?

So, if YouTube would shun gays or black people from its website, and the government wouldn't allow it, would that be fascist? Again, it's a matter of principle. It's too simple to say, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, they're companies and they can do as they please. For that their service is too important to the public. 

Fair point.  Provision of this service to the public is a form of commerce.  Commerce is always regulated, to some degree, in all societies--at least since Hammurabi.

Thus, non-discriminatory practices in commerce are typical in many countries.  Still, forcing an entity to permit posting of any and all materials is hardly reasonable regulation.  These organizations thus have community guidelines they enforce.

It seems to me the beef about InfoWars materials boils down to whether the community guidelines being enforced are reasonable.  There's no issue here of IW materials being discriminated against on the basis of race, creed, gender, national origin, etc.  And i imagine the ban is reasonably in keeping with published community guidelines.

Perhaps the internet should be better regulated to prevent FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter, etc from having monopolistic control over their respective modes of dissemination.  Seems a whole 'nother potential slippery slope, though.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #402 on: August 07, 2018, 11:19:40 PM »
Thus, non-discriminatory practices in commerce are typical in many countries.  Still, forcing an entity to permit posting of any and all materials is hardly reasonable regulation.  These organizations thus have community guidelines they enforce.

But what if some asshole like Rupert Murdoch starts buying up these organisations and decides: No more AGW material, because it's controversial/political?

It's a marketplace of ideas. As strange as it may seem, the nutty/dangerous/fringe stuff can serve a purpose. It's a never ending task to counter it, and as onerous and frustrating as it may seem, as tempting as it is to just shut it down (which almost always results in the opposite effect), it's the only way humanity can go forward.

So, as much as I dislike Alex Jones, shutting him out is a mistake.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

AbruptSLR

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 17732
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 932
  • Likes Given: 242
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #403 on: August 07, 2018, 11:30:45 PM »
A big part of the GOP would like Trump to decide what is good and what is bad journalism:

Title: "New Poll: 43% of Republicans Want to Give Trump the Power to Shut Down Media"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-poll-43-of-republicans-want-to-give-trump-the-power-to-shut-down-media

Extract: "The “enemy of the people” talk is working. A plurality of self-identified Republicans say they want Trump to have the power to take “bad” media outlets out."

“It is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change.”
― Leon C. Megginson

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #404 on: August 07, 2018, 11:41:34 PM »
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #405 on: August 08, 2018, 12:06:29 AM »
I agree with Neven. You don't win the long game by silencing the extreme voices. You have to steal their audience like Trump did. There are no rules, truth is subjective.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1465
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 198
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #406 on: August 08, 2018, 12:13:29 AM »
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).

So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #407 on: August 08, 2018, 07:50:28 AM »
"should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?"

in my opinion, yes. That's why we have the ignore setting.

An improvement would be to have an ignore button on every post, right beside the poster name. once pressed that poster disappears forever from all threads. or i suppose you could do it by thread.

An aphorism i recall is, "Those who did not know Usenet are doomed to reinvent it badly."

Usenet is still going, and i still participate. I am often tempted to set up a NNTP server and gateway some of this forum into it ... 

sidd

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #408 on: August 08, 2018, 10:47:06 AM »
So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .

What's good for the ant, isn't good for the elephant. I'm not a trillion-dollar corporation. You can make this argument again, when forum membership surpasses 1 million and the ASIF starts influencing public opinion.

Besides, the analogy is built on sand, as this is an online discussion forum, whereas YouTube is a  video-sharing website. If I make a video on the melting season, no one can interrupt it with AGW disinformation or disrupt my channel. And no one is forced to view the rebuttals to my video.

It's really important to separate personal tastes from principles here, or before you know it, you turn out to be an authoritarian fascist yourself. Don't let the 'enemy' drag you down to his level.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Pmt111500

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1889
  • Yes, I do not always bicycle
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 98
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #409 on: August 08, 2018, 12:02:07 PM »
Right, and as an added argument, they can say: 'They' did it to Alex Jones too.

Or like Kyle Kulinski explains in the video I posted (if I remember correctly), three out of four people that aren't allowed to speak on college campuses, are actually leftists. But all everyone talks about is Milo and Ben Shapiro.

The situation with corporate media as the mouthpiece for concentrated wealth, is already problematic enough. This kind of stuff may mean there is no way back, and Americans will de facto live in a 1984-type world (many already are).

So, if we should prevent censorship of online discussion, should climate change deniers be permitted to post freely on ASIF?
What's good for the goose. . .

Only if they want to join the global conspiracy of scientists of READING THEM F----NG THERMOMETERS CORRECTLY. F.e. republican posters should provide proof they're not CROSS-EYED, from a democratic doctor, can't trust those republican ones who selectively and secretly  prescribe mind-altering drugs to potential republican voters.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:10:17 PM by Pmt111500 »
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #410 on: August 08, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »
Someone else weighs in, whom some people here would like to see silenced as well, I bet:



Ron Placone:

Quote
It's interesting to me, because I've been seeing a lot of this on the blogosphere today, and there have been some people on the left kind of celebrating this. And then when people come out there... I mean, I don't like Alex Jones either. We don't disagree that he publishes a lot of despicable stuff, but don't you see the slippery slope here? And they're like: Well, they're a private company and they can do what they want. It's like, man, you're sounding a lot like the people that are defending the NFL not allowing players to kneel during the anthem. You're sounding a lot like those people. They're a private company.

Should those private companies have 'lack of patriotism' in their community guidelines? Or 'conspiracy theories verboten'? Foreign hackers put out stuff to support you and so we have to take you down? Who are next? The 'Putin puppets'?

Like Dore explains: In the end this hurts the left, because people on the left are smart enough and most prone to attack the powers that be. By creating this precedent, it is a matter of time before other people get censored. That's the slippery slope, and that's why this is such an important matter of principle.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 247
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #411 on: August 08, 2018, 06:26:52 PM »
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose. Here's a more honest assessment:

jacksmith4tx

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #412 on: August 08, 2018, 08:56:18 PM »
When Neven referenced Usenet it reminded me of the early days when everyone was 'in the clear' and used their real names, place of work, even their phone numbers. Things sure seemed so much more civil. Then AOL happened and things went psycho.
Serious question.
What if everyone online(internet/LAN/wireless) was required to be 'transparent'? No more avatars, only live humans with a unique ID (thinking along the lines of what Google is doing).
https://www.google.com/landing/2step/

While most multi-factor authentication is used for security the flip side of the technology could be extended to everything we interact with on the networks. Could it change how we express ourselves? Would it reduce the level of misleading information, propaganda and fraud?

For deep thinkers read this:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #413 on: August 09, 2018, 12:15:43 AM »
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose. Here's a more honest assessment:

Agreed 100% and John Oliver gives an excellent example of how to fight that, but it says nothing about the discussion at hand:

Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?
Is there a risk that this constitutes a slippery slope?
And is it a smart thing to do with the goal in mind?

I say no, yes, no.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #414 on: August 09, 2018, 01:31:00 AM »
Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?
In light of the Trump election, the Rohingya crisis, a few other atrocities, where Facebook played a role, plus the technically necessary censorship of Twitter bots, customer privacy protection, etc. etc. ...
I'd say yes.

Quote
Is there a risk that this constitutes a slippery slope?
Looks like slippery slopes all around. (Censorship or fascism, stupidity amplification...)

If that megacorporation does not have a monopoly I see no problem.


They are censoring carnal porn already, so why not try get that brain masturbator (Alex Jones) out of reach of late pubescents and the morbidly stupid?

Apropos stupidity amplification: I invented that term before Angela Merkel used the wörd Fake News. The Trump election is a grandiose example of this phenomenon. ... I insist in the moral philosophical human right of Trying to Abstain from Adding to Stupidity Amplification. (Otherwise we are toast.) --- This "right" should even be enforced on corporations and markets by regulation - if necessary.


-------------------------
Anyway, I guess they deleted Alex Jones due to customer complaints, incl. legal challenges (slander).


Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #415 on: August 09, 2018, 06:16:42 AM »
Alex Jones has, among other things, made the lives of the parents whose young children were gunned down in Sandy Hook a living hell, by encouraging his followers to attack them as "crisis actors". They've had to hide from actual violence. His incitements to violence are not freedom of speech. He's a profit center. If you believe somebody who supports incitements to violence and mayhem based on lies, that's an indication that you are being led by the nose.

+1. Thank you, Susan. My words exactly.

Quote
Here's a more honest assessment:


Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:37:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #416 on: August 09, 2018, 06:29:48 AM »
Should megacorporations that essentially offer a marketplace as a service have the right to censor?

Absolutely.
Not just megacorporations, but also discussion forums like this one.
There needs to be a line drawn about what is acceptable and what not.
That's typically outlined in the posting guidelines which you need to agree to before you use the service. If you don't like these guidelines, find another service or start one of your own.

I don't see why that is such a big deal.

Remember that without limits, you could have ISIS openly calling for violence or beheadings of particular persons or groups. You would not allow that here on the ASIF and neither would Facebook, Youtube or any other open internet service.

P.S. Incidentally, where are the ASIF posting guidelines ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Pmt111500

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1889
  • Yes, I do not always bicycle
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 98
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #417 on: August 09, 2018, 09:30:27 AM »
I hear Alex Jones himself shut his social media connections down as he is preparing his case against the parents of a school shooting victims. He's claiming the school shooting has been staged, and wants to publish the addresses of the parents he's claiming to be in the conspiracy to stage their children's deaths, in order to prove his case.

I know that doesn't make much sense but I'm glad of his decision to shut his social media accounts.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #418 on: August 09, 2018, 09:52:27 AM »
Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.

Well, Jimmy Dore spit Alex Jones in the face not too long ago, and I'm sure he's done several segments on him over the years, so there you go. Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.

What I like about the John Oliver bit, is that he does it with satire, which is the most powerful way of addressing bad stuff.

I don't see why that is such a big deal.

That's because you have trouble separating your personal tastes from general principles. You stand 100% behind establishment narratives, so as long as corporate media doesn't get turned off, there's not much of a problem.

Simply shutting things down, because you don't like them, is never going to solve anything and gets you further and further away from a free society.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #419 on: August 09, 2018, 10:15:01 AM »
When Neven referenced Usenet it reminded me of the early days when everyone was 'in the clear' and used their real names, place of work, even their phone numbers. Things sure seemed so much more civil. Then AOL happened and things went psycho.
Serious question.
What if everyone online(internet/LAN/wireless) was required to be 'transparent'? No more avatars, only live humans with a unique ID (thinking along the lines of what Google is doing).
https://www.google.com/landing/2step/

While most multi-factor authentication is used for security the flip side of the technology could be extended to everything we interact with on the networks. Could it change how we express ourselves? Would it reduce the level of misleading information, propaganda and fraud?

For deep thinkers read this:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/

I actually think this would be a very good idea, or at the very least a discussion worth having  (and opened a thread about this very subject last year).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #420 on: August 09, 2018, 10:22:33 AM »
Where Dore is only talking about having "more speech" against the hate mongerers like Alex Jones, John Oliver actually delivers. In his own brilliant way.

Well, Jimmy Dore spit Alex Jones in the face not too long ago,
That's Jimmy Dore's idea of "more speech" ?

Quote
and I'm sure he's done several segments on him over the years, so there you go.
I'm not so sure of that. You have an example of where Dore addresses Jones ?
The problem is that Dore and Jones share promoting the same conspiracy theories (UraniumGate come to mind).

Quote
Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.
I'm sure you are right. But an example would be nice.
Quote
What I like about the John Oliver bit, is that he does it with satire, which is the most powerful way of addressing bad stuff.
Agreed.
Quote
I don't see why that is such a big deal.

That's because you have trouble separating your personal tastes from general principles. You stand 100% behind establishment narratives, so as long as corporate media doesn't get turned off, there's not much of a problem.
C'mon Neven.
ASIF is not different from corporate platforms.
There are rules that users need to comply with.
You currently impose them at will. At your own discretion.
For example, if ISIS starts posting on ASIF, what would you do ?
I hope you would shut them down.

If you are a bigger company, you need to post some rules, so that you can shut them down with reason. That's not "establishment narratives" but just common sense.
 
Quote
Simply shutting things down, because you don't like them, is never going to solve anything and gets you further and further away from a free society.

Facebook and Youtube did not shut down Alex Jones because they "don't like them".
They shut him down because he violated their posting guidelines against hate speech and inciting violence.

ASIF still does not seem to have any posting guidelines.
Other platforms do. Here are the ones from metabunk (who I respect very much) :
https://www.metabunk.org/posting-guidelines.t2064/

Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #421 on: August 09, 2018, 11:38:37 AM »
I'm not so sure of that. You have an example of where Dore addresses Jones ?

I remember seeing several segments, especially in the work Dore has done for TYT, but I can't find them. The search function on YouTube isn't all that great, and the spit incident obviously takes up most of the search results.

I found this short clip where halfway the clip they discuss Alex Jones for a bit, which maybe explains why Dore doesn't talk about Alex Jones as much as other progressive commentators.

https://youtu.be/kA6Z4wiLCPo?t=159

Quote
Quote
Progressive (more or less) commentators like Kyle Kulinski, David Pakman and Sam Seder have segments on Alex Jones all the time.

I'm sure you are right. But an example would be nice.

Kyle Kulinski

David Pakman

Sam Seder

John Oliver can be funny at times, but these guys do the in-depth stuff. All the time. Of course, because it gets them clicks, but that doesn't matter.

Quote
C'mon Neven.
ASIF is not different from corporate platforms.
There are rules that users need to comply with.
You currently impose them at will. At your own discretion.
For example, if ISIS starts posting on ASIF, what would you do ?
I hope you would shut them down.

It depends on how they would act. If they were just trolling, I'd ban them straight away. If they would eloquently explain their positions, and people could restrain themselves and explain what's right or wrong about those arguments, I'd look at how far it could go.

ASIF is very different from Facebook and YouTube, on multiple levels.

Quote
If you are a bigger company, you need to post some rules, so that you can shut them down with reason. That's not "establishment narratives" but just common sense.

I agree, but the service that companies like YouTube, Facebook and Twitter provide, is so big that it has become a public marketplace, and its importance supersedes - in my view - corporate guidelines with regard to censure. Like I said, the judicial system needs to handle the excesses. They can't be prevented by simply shutting things down.
 
Quote
Facebook and Youtube did not shut down Alex Jones because they "don't like them".
They shut him down because he violated their posting guidelines against hate speech and inciting violence.

If that is the case, they could have done so much earlier, and they didn't have to do it all at the same time. It's clear that this has been pushed by people who don't like Alex Jones. They simply want it to go away, and think they can by shutting down his means of communication. But Jones had 2.5 million subscribers on YouTube. They're not going anywhere, especially now that Alex Jones can play the martyr role.

Again, imagine some asshole like Rupert Murdock buying up YouTube and Facebook, shutting down the stuff you like. Would you buy the arguments you're using in this case? Do you accept the same arguments condoning what the NFL does wrt kneeling players?

Quote
Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?

We can discuss that elsewhere.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #422 on: August 09, 2018, 02:38:30 PM »
I hadn't seen this Sam Seder video yet and he proposes a solution (break up the FB, YT, etc monopolies):

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 247
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #423 on: August 09, 2018, 08:31:39 PM »
More on Alex Jones. Please do, at the least, go to 4:20 where it mentions the US military budget, which is something that is used to attack those of us who hate this as well as those who like it. Facts are facts, though, and it's not a good thing, any way you look at it.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:41:40 PM by Susan Anderson »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #424 on: August 09, 2018, 08:38:15 PM »
I think we can all agree on Alex Jones: He peddles crazy stuff for money. The more interesting question is whether corporations that have gained a monopoly on a large part of the marketplace, can censure as they please, and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 247
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #425 on: August 09, 2018, 08:54:01 PM »
Yes Neven, I think we could all agree that corporate power is out of control. If I were queen of the world, I'd break up Facebook today. Unfortunately, that would also cut off the Parkland students, Black Lives Matter, MeToo, and all other forms of protests and organization for the resistance. Unfortunately, freedom is now used to support the likes of Alex Jones, attacking honest news, military-grade weapons, religious repression of birth control & family planning, attacks on health care for all, hate speech and incitements to violent action, voter suppression and cheating, etc.

Just like climate denial, they simply turn the words around, and since they have no scruples, hey presto!

But I actually came to provide a link to a very fine Inside Climate News report: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/07082018/heartland-institute-climate-change-denial-trump-administration-fossil-fuels-carbon-tax

Quote
Climate Change Denialists Never Had It So Good. So Why the Angst?
Despite having unprecedented influence in Washington to achieve a fossil fuel-first agenda, conservative interests are eyeing events outside the Beltway with unease.


The highest Trump administration official to appear at the conclave was Brooke Rollins ... [who] serves in the White House as assistant to the president in the Office of American Innovation. Heartland President Tim Huelskamp, a former Kansas Congress member who chaired the Tea Party caucus, asked her if Trump would take on the endangerment finding and other "golden calves of the left." ....

Jay Lehr, the Heartland Institute's science director, noted the "major role" that Heartland played in urging Trump to withdraw from the Paris climate accord.

Lehr asked Rollins if Trump would stay the course. "People keep thinking he could still back down," he said.

"All of my experience has proven out that when this president says he believes in something, then there is no one more bold or courageous or fearless," Rollins said. "Does that mean I can say today he will never change his mind? No. But it does go to the question of how important organizations like Heartland and Texas Public Policy Foundation are."

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #426 on: August 10, 2018, 08:52:36 AM »
Quote
Would that serve as a good example of posting guidelines for ASIF ?

We can discuss that elsewhere.

I started a new thread, called "Posting Guidelines" here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg166597.html
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #427 on: August 10, 2018, 12:07:51 PM »
I think Jimmy Dore explains the problems with the de-platforming of Alex Jones well, and this is a reasonably good discussion. It's funny that Dore takes this position, after having spit Jones in the face two years ago, but that's how it works with principles:



Ron Placone doesn't say much, but he nails it again with this: It's very interesting seeing the people on the left all of a sudden defending Facebook's corporate person-hood, because it's used against someone they don't like, which is Alex Jones.

Of course, so does Jimmy Dore: If you think this is effective, there are so many unintended consequences from this. Not only that it's going to be used to silence the left, you're actually cheering on fascism, you're actually cheering on the squelching of freedom of speech. Again, the answer to bad speech, isn't censorship. The answer to bad speech, is more speech.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:20:04 PM by Neven »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #428 on: August 10, 2018, 12:18:40 PM »
Unintended consequences:



« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:32:18 PM by Neven »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #429 on: August 10, 2018, 02:02:04 PM »
I post a lot of stuff from progressive commentators. If anyone has interesting stuff in a similar format with regard to this subject (the de-platforming of Alex Jones), I'll watch anything you post, even if it's contrary to the strong arguments by the people I link to.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #430 on: August 10, 2018, 02:36:55 PM »
Susan, you'll like this one.  ;D

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Susan Anderson

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 527
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 247
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #431 on: August 10, 2018, 05:31:18 PM »
I know everything I need to know about Alex Jones, and he is nauseating. We are approaching the anniversary of the Nazi racist attacks in Charlottesville with some apprehension, given Trump's continuing encouragement of hatred and violence.

Sebastian Jones

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 52
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #432 on: August 10, 2018, 05:41:16 PM »
I know everything I need to know about Alex Jones, and he is nauseating. We are approaching the anniversary of the Nazi racist attacks in Charlottesville with some apprehension, given Trump's continuing encouragement of hatred and violence.
Indeed. Relating this discussion to the warming climate/ shrinking cryosphere; it is the utterly amoral attitude of people such as Jones and his admirers that lets us trash the ecosystems upon which we all depend. Freedom of speed is not absolute, but the bar needs to be set very high (low?) so that restricting it is very very rare.

GeoffBeacon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #433 on: August 10, 2018, 07:02:08 PM »
Example of bad journalism from a last year - but the impression may remain.

I do believe we have a population problem but I came across this fairly recently

Quote
A teacher with no children goes on several big flights a year. She has a lifestyle far more sustainable than a family of 5, no matter how little they travel.

This idea came from a press release from Lund University The four lifestyle choices that most reduce your carbon footprint, which said “having one fewer child would save 58.6 tonnes per year.”

This was repeated in many main stream papers, e.g. The Guardian, The Telegraph.

Although having children, is bad for the planet, it's not as bad as "driving an average car a distance of 1000 kilometers every day of the year. All your life." 

What was missed out of most (or all?) of the journalism was that  the effects of having children in "advanced" countries (USA,Canada, Europe &etc) was very, very, very much worse than in poor countries.

I know this topic has many different angles but the journalism was terrible - swallowing whole the muddle of the original paper.

See Population is a planet emergency but …. This took me far too long to write, hindered as usual by a way round pay walls.


Il faut cultiver notre cité-jardin
The Sustainable Plotlands Association

Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4289
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 274
  • Likes Given: 28
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #434 on: August 12, 2018, 10:11:26 AM »
I nominate the good (nay, great) journalism of Gavin Esler, ex BBC:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/gavin-esler-changed-my-mind-on-brexit-1-5644402

Not only about Brexit, but also.....

Quote
The idea of supposed ‘balance’ when confronted by “campaigns of disinformation and hate” is especially problematic. In Belfast in the 1980s, even with the bombs going off, balance meant hearing from both unionists and nationalists, Protestants and Catholics. But more recently how can any news organisation ‘balance’ the overwhelming weight of worldwide scientific opinion about MMR vaccines or climate change with the crackpot anti-vaccine theories of Andrew Wakefield or of those who claim climate change is somehow ‘fake news’?

When Lord Lawson used to appear regularly on television to pontificate on the supposed lack of evidence on climate change to ‘balance’ the informed opinions of the best climate scientists worldwide, I wondered why anyone should take seriously the scientific wisdom of a not especially distinguished former chancellor of the exchequer. Would you trust Lord Lawson’s ‘expertise’ to fix your teeth after he read a couple of books on dentistry? So why did he become the go-to ‘balance’ guy for climate scepticism on television and radio?
.
.
.
Lord Lawson, when not offering his expert opinions on climate change, premenstrual tension, or whatever else he claims to know about, is seeking French residency.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:16:56 AM by Jim Hunt »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #435 on: August 12, 2018, 11:09:31 PM »
Ames on Naipaul at the Jacobin: As usual, Ames pulls no punches.

"The American right only needs “team players” — shameless, cynical hacks who can be counted on to churn out whatever rank propaganda ordered up by the Heritage Foundation. For that, you need a Rotary Club nihilist like Dinesh D’Souza, someone totally devoid of a literary ego, intellectual curiosity, or a gag reflex."

"If Naipaul wanted to pick up that check from the American right-wing, it wasn’t enough to have fought on the front lines of the ideological battle of the 1970s against the literary Marxists. He’d have to become a lobotomized, conquered version of himself, an Eldridge Cleaver. He’d have to give up everything interesting about himself.

Instead, Naipaul essentially banished himself to the whispered margins of the American right ..."

"At some point, it just couldn’t be ignored: these people were scum; mean, sleazy, boring scum. It became impossible to be near them. They — we — dropped out of the Right, and wanted nothing more to do with it all. But by ruining everything in this country — economically, culturally, intellectually, militarily — the Right essentially chased us wherever we went, poisoning everything they could get their hands on. Until finally there was nowhere to go but leftward. A hardened, mean left."

"Naipaul’s career developed at a time when Western reactionary intellectuals could still be formidable, dynamic and unpredictable; there was space carved out on the Right for reactionary talent like Naipaul. "

" ... the American right has no need of unpredictable talent like V. S. Naipaul, so they’ve driven his species into extinction as well ..."

"Naipaul always despised facile thinking. It was because Naipaul was so committed to merciless observation that he allied himself with reactionary intellectuals of the pre-Reagan, pre-Thatcher era — it was the Left that wore the rose-tinted glasses back then. What Naipaul didn’t realize was how much worse, how much more intellectually stifling America’s right-wing intelligentsia would turn out to be once in power. "

Read the whole thing, even if you disagree:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/04/v-s-naipaul-and-the-american-right

sidd


mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #436 on: August 14, 2018, 11:40:12 AM »

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #437 on: August 14, 2018, 10:45:28 PM »
The media would love a nice little war in Central America. Good for ratings. Banging the drums for the liberation of venezuela is a repeat of all the warmongering they have done for centuries.

Watch for a torrent of "anonymous senior officials" decrying the grave threat to stability posed by venezuela, and the urgent need for US action. They'd probably posit weapons of mass destruction, but i think that's past it's "sell by" date.

Right now, Yemen at bat, Venezuela on deck. I'm not that bothered about the Iran situation, looks ike china, russia and the EU have their back.

sidd

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #438 on: August 15, 2018, 08:03:51 AM »
Well, well, well, facebook bans telesur. Liberation for Venezuela draws closer.

sidd

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #439 on: August 16, 2018, 09:45:54 PM »
Finley at the Detroit News:

"Donald Trump is not responsible for the eroding trust in the media. He lacks the credibility to pull that off. The damage to our standing is self-inflicted."

"Respected journalists openly question whether remaining objective in the Donald Trump era is a sell-out rather than a virtue. Some have joined the resistance movement, blending journalism with activism."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2018/08/16/media-must-look-itself-restore-trust/979467002/

sidd

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #440 on: August 16, 2018, 09:56:50 PM »
Husseini in the same vein:

" ... the establishment media can draw attention away from their own failures, corruptions and falsehoods simply by focusing on Trump’s."

"[Trump and the media] They are at worst frenemies. More likely, at times, Trump and the establishment media log roll with each other. The major media built up Trump. Trump’s attacks effectively elevate a select few media celebrities."

"None of the newspaper editorials I’ve seen published today mention the likely prosecution of Wikileaks. If there were solidarity among media, the prospect of Julian Assange being imprisoned for publishing U.S. government documents should be front and center today.

Neither did I see a mention of RT or, as of this week, Al Jazeera, being compelled to register as foreign agents."

"Counter to the lofty rhetoric of many of today’s editorials, the promise of an independent and truth-seeking press has frequently been subservient to propaganda, pushing for war or narrow economic and other interests."

"But recently one of his rhetorically tweets stated that media “cause wars“. I would say “push for war”, but that’s quibbling.

Trump is technically right on that point, but it’s totally disingenuous coming from him."

"Meanwhile, much more meaningful collusion that can be termed Israelgate is being ignored as the U.S. and Israeli governments attempt to further mold the Mideast."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/08/16/the-trump-media-logrolling/

sidd

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #441 on: August 17, 2018, 08:48:43 AM »
First the came for Assange and we said nothing, for we were not wikileaks. Then they came for RT and we said nothing for we were not russians. Then they came for Telesur and we said nothing for we were not south americans. Then they came for Al Jazeera and we said nothing for we were not middle easterners.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/08/we-told-you-that-once-the-establishment-silenced-assange-the-rest-of-the-media-would-be-next-we-were-right/

https://caucus99percent.com/content/who-didnt-see-coming-0

https://caucus99percent.com/content/first-it-was-rt-now-they-are-going-after-al-jazeera

When they come for ASIF, there will be no one left to stand for us.

I, for one, am not waiting. Public key and onion address available offline.

sidd

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #442 on: August 17, 2018, 01:49:07 PM »
Discussing Infowars and RT as though they are journalistic sources is beyond laughable (your link to "Disobedient Media").  Infowars is is nothing but batshit crazy in order to enrich himself ...... and RT is nothing more than an arm of the Russian government.

Am I worried about "censorship".  ABSOLUTELY.  In fact .... Trump operates in the realm of indirect censorship NOW:

1)  He hasn't given a news conference of any substantial length in well over a year.  A YEAR.

2)  Trump only does "softball interviews" with the propaganda arm of his administration:  FOX.

3)  The fact that FOX allows Sean Hannity to even be on the air when he is nothing more than the right hand man for Trump is just one more example of how FOX is NOT journalism.  It is a fraud .... and always has been. 

THAT .... is a type of censorship. 

A democracy can not work well when it doesn't have GOOD, TRUTHFUL INFORMATION.  In fact .... no "entity" (business, government, any group or individual for that matter) doesn't perform well WITHOUT GOOD, TRUTHFUL INFORMATION...... FACTS.

But including entities like Infowars or RT in the realm of "journalism" is like talking about FOX as journalism.  THEY AREN'T. 

Everything in life has limits.  The freedom of speech should NOT openly allow the "FREEDOM TO LIE" like Infowars, FOX, etc. 
 




FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #443 on: August 17, 2018, 10:10:53 PM »
Those baying for the shutdown of ... disagreeable ... media sources might do worse than reflect on Mencken's quote:

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

sidd

Martin Gisser

  • Guest
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #444 on: August 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM »
Meanwhile, https://www.facebook.com/teleSUREnglish/ is back.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/Why-Did-Facebook-Delete-teleSUR-English-20180816-0010.html
Quote
Eventually, after two days our account was restored, receiving mixed messages from the Facebook team claiming it was due to instability, and explaining the company had to temporarily suspend our account in order to secure it as they had detected “suspicious activity”
(my emph.)

Some DDOS attack on teleSUREnglish perhaps? Would be unsurprising if they are targeted by hackers and trolls.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 05:51:13 PM by Martin Gisser »

ivica

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 976
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 29
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #445 on: August 18, 2018, 08:15:57 PM »
snippet copy

Max Blumenthal @MaxBlumenthal 4h4 hours ago: "And it looks like Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) was just bounced from Twitter for saying mean things about John McCain. Everyone okay with this political purge? And who’s next?"

The latest from Caitlin:

Twitter Shut Down My Account For “Abusing” John McCain

Posted by invica on unsorted more info there
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2346.msg168034.html#msg168034

Caitlin is back! "Unsorted" updated.
https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/twitter-has-shut-down-my-account-for-abusing-john-mccain-25e7be909f4d

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #446 on: August 19, 2018, 12:40:51 AM »
WaPo calls for Brennan to be fired:

" ... start to restore in U.S. intelligence agencies some semblance of responsibility to the Constitution and the public."

Good or bad journalism ? It depends ... on your position ... in 2014 ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/31/obama-should-fire-john-brennan/

sidd

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5436
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 540
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #447 on: August 19, 2018, 05:14:38 AM »
WaPo calls for Brennan to be fired:

" ... start to restore in U.S. intelligence agencies some semblance of responsibility to the Constitution and the public."

Good or bad journalism ? It depends ... on your position ... in 2014 ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/07/31/obama-should-fire-john-brennan/

sidd
There's Good Journalism, Bad Journalism - then whatever it is that the Washington Post prints. 8)
Terry

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #448 on: August 19, 2018, 08:40:04 AM »
Discussing Infowars and RT as though they are journalistic sources is beyond laughable (your link to "Disobedient Media").  Infowars is is nothing but batshit crazy in order to enrich himself ...... and RT is nothing more than an arm of the Russian government.


Lumping the two together is funny.
RT might be "Russian backed" but that doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. They (obviously) are willing to say some sad truths that the US media will not. Do they add in some "propaganda" sure they do but so does every other media. RT's is just stuff you don't want to hear or know- easier that way.

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 388
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #449 on: August 23, 2018, 07:04:18 AM »
Glen Ford on fire at the Black Agenda Report:

"It is a new twist, however -- and a sign of profound disarray among the ruling class -- that a white racist billionaire U.S. president finds himself treated like the “Other” by most of the corporate media."

"It is a battle royal, as the inveterate prevaricators of the U.S. press joust with Trump, a master of the Art of the Lie."

"Silicon Valley and the corporate media are far more effective in conjuring alternative realities than the chaotic Trump White House. Trump tells lies that are easily countered; the New York Times and Google erase facts from history, systematically."

"The deeper the crisis of capitalism, the worse the lies will get, and the further the United States will descend into an information bubble of conjured “facts” and beliefs that are rejected -- held in utter contempt -- by the rest of the planet. I’m not talking about the nonsense that buttresses “American exceptionalism,” a two-bit cracker ideology that the non-white world recognizes as nothing but white settler hubris (even when preached by a Black U.S. president). I mean U.S. "bubble knowledge" vs. hard facts, the kind that erode the very legitimacy of oligarch rule ..."

https://blackagendareport.com/how-long-shelf-life-damnable-racist-capitalist-lies

sidd