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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 31797 times)

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2018, 02:46:16 PM »
I particularly liked the comment comparing her show to professional wrestling.
Wouldn't waste my time watching either, but I do get the reference,


Back in the day MSNBC was the 24 hour Monica Lewinsky Channel. They evidently make a decision as to what story will bring them the most viewers (money), and shamelessly pursue that story to the exclusion of much that might actually pass for news.


Apparently a successful strategy whenever showing a profit is more important than showing news.
Terry

Tor Bejnar

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2018, 02:49:13 PM »
Chris Hayes (MSNBC) covered it here.  I didn't find a Rachel Maddow video.

(The previous video says both didn't cover the West Virginia teacher's strike.)
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TerryM

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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2018, 04:06:01 AM »
Jimmy Dore discusses it too, but watch Michael Moore at the start of the video:

[xxx]

Where would Maddow be without Russiagate?
Rich and famous, to the envy of Jimmy Dore... (Peddling envy out of context sure qualifies as very bad journalism).

From 2013, long before Russiagate:
http://www.tvguide.com/news/tv-highest-paid-stars-1069334/
Quote
[...]

LATE NIGHT (per year)
Jon Stewart (The Daily Show): $25-30 million
Jay Leno (The Tonight Show): $20 million
David Letterman (Late Night): $20 million
Jimmy Kimmel (Jimmy Kimmel Live): $10 million
Andy Cohen (Watch What Happens Live): $2 million

NEWS (per year)
Matt Lauer (NBC): $22-25 million
Rachel Maddow (MSNBC): $7 million
Megyn Kelly (Fox News Channel): $6 million
Scott Pelley (CBS): $5 million
Chris Cuomo (CNN): $2.5 million

DAYTIME/SYNDICATION (per year)
Judy Sheindlin (Judge Judy): $47 million
Katie Couric (Katie): $10 million
Michael Strahan (Live with Kelly and Michael): $4 million
Sharon Osbourne (The Talk): $1 million
Aisha Tyler (The Talk): $500,000

It seems she hasn't got a pay rise since...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 04:24:30 AM by Martin Gisser »
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2018, 05:32:44 PM »
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2018, 08:04:15 PM »
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories
I did read your posted piece. There is little I agree with & I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.


In the end it matters little whether you see the white helmets as terrorists or as neutral actors who are so often found in terrorist encampments. What matters is that their message attempts to paint Western intervention into Syria's civil war as a good thing.


If you believe that Trump, May and Macron acted legally and morally in an operation that Macron himself described as "illegal, but legitimate". then your support of the white helmets is a given.
I you believe that Trump may not be a shining example of integrity, or that the bombing of a war torn country may not be in the best interest of peace and stability, then what the white hats say or do really isn't of too much import.


ivica's latest post may provide some guidance.
Terry

sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2018, 08:25:28 PM »
The only quote from Bellingcat that I noticed was simply stating that the Mannequin Challenge video was misused.  Do you consider that disinformation?

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2018, 08:43:13 PM »
Being mad at Bellingcat is a sure sign of morbid Putinophilia. Sometimes also morbid Assadophilia.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:09:51 PM by Martin Gisser »
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2018, 09:39:27 PM »
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2018, 09:42:22 PM »
I was hoping to escape the American Imperialism vs Russian propaganda dichotomy, and simply analyze the merits of individual sources.  I know that is difficult.

Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2018, 10:04:46 PM »
There seems to be a consensus here that the White Helmets are an illegitimate or even terrorist organization.  I'm not well-versed enough to develop a firm opinion.  I would appreciate any links to what members here consider to be a reasoned assessment. 

I know that this article will be seen as anti-Russian propaganda, but I would like to see a reasoned counter to its claims.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories

This article shows a link to jihadists, apparently there is filmed evidence.
https://www.rt.com/news/388960-white-helmets-execution-footage/

Vanessa Beeley:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/09/01/white-helmets-the-jib-al-qubeh-war-crime-in-aleppo-denied-by-channel-4/

Extensive article analyzin their production of propaganda films:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/01/white-helmets-channel-4-bbc-guardian-architects-war/

magnamentis

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2018, 10:19:16 PM »
I was hoping to escape the American Imperialism vs Russian propaganda dichotomy, and simply analyze the merits of individual sources.  I know that is difficult.

there are those who are seeking truth because they know they know little and then there are those who think they got it.

those who think they got it just have proven they didn't and in the process they prefer to take side and identify themselves with the group thay want to belong to because they need to feel safe with their flawed assumptions. for those people it's impossible to analyze merits, opinions and any input whiie for those who seek truth it's a pleasure, hence easy to to so.

also the later ask more than those who became dogmatic and are able to admit errors and
to apologize for overshooting (as most of us do sometimes).

so it easy for those who control there ego and animalic instincts and use their brain to seek truth rather than feeding a profiling neurosis.

the most difficult to handle are those who do good for the wrong motive as mention above or any other ego-based motivation.
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2018, 10:36:35 PM »
Hefaistos, one of those is Russian state media, and the other two are by the journalist that the Guardian piece discussed.  I'm aware of what both have written on the issue.  The question is if we can discern whether these sources or the Guardian are more reliable.  Or perhaps neither are.

Criticism against Beeley includes that most of her evidence is personal accounts from her tour of Syria that was approved by their government, in which her experience contrasts with that of others like Cecilia Udden.  Further, the 21stcenturywire site itself is often linked to RT and Sputnik in social media.  Perhaps these criticisms are unfounded, but simply stating the views of Beeley and RT will not help.

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2018, 10:48:35 PM »
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
Both. It is a standard red flag. Example: Terry.

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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2018, 10:59:26 PM »
Who is mad at Bellingcat, or were you talking in general?
Both. It is a standard red flag. Example: Terry.

I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC. That doesn't mean you can't glean useful information from them. You just have to be aware of their biases (and your own, but that's more difficult).
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2018, 11:09:44 PM »
I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC.
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly. Or maybe try to forget about politics and focus on Earth and science. I'm sorry, your all-same-ism is pathological.

Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

A voice from the madhouse:
I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2018, 11:44:03 PM »
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly.

It's okay that you don't get it. I still like you.  :)

Quote
Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

Bellingcat is clearly biased in its selection of what evidence to show, or the conclusions they attach to this evidence. Their scope doesn't go very far beyond themes that are tied to Russia. It's therefore no wonder that Higgins has been made a fellow at the Atlantic Council, has flirted with weapon manufacturers (who knows if he has started working for one or more along the way), and as far as I know, there is no transparency as to where their funding comes from.

Furthermore, and I might be mistaken, but they will never apply their analytical skills when it comes to things that might embarrass NATO or Western powers. They stay well within the bounds of certain narratives. And this indicates their bias.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It just means you have to keep it in mind when reading their information, as I try to do everywhere I go to look for information. That doesn't make one a Putin or Assad-phile.

It's quite possible to dislike Putin/Assad and not blindly trust Bellingcat, you know.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2018, 11:51:44 PM »
Bellingcat has the same problem as Rachel Maddow: Too much stuff out there.

If you seriously think NATO and Russia produce the same amount of fake news these days - get your brain examined, pretty please. Buddhists offer workshops on brain self-examination. No need yet to see a psychologist, but you are coming close to clinical symptoms. Sorry.
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Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2018, 11:52:09 PM »
Hefaistos, one of those is Russian state media, and the other two are by the journalist that the Guardian piece discussed.  I'm aware of what both have written on the issue.  The question is if we can discern whether these sources or the Guardian are more reliable.  Or perhaps neither are.

Criticism against Beeley includes that most of her evidence is personal accounts from her tour of Syria that was approved by their government, in which her experience contrasts with that of others like Cecilia Udden.  Further, the 21stcenturywire site itself is often linked to RT and Sputnik in social media.  Perhaps these criticisms are unfounded, but simply stating the views of Beeley and RT will not help.

I'd be very suspicious of a group like the WHite helmets, that has the production of propaganda films/materials on their agenda. Furthermore, they are heavily financed by US/UK et.al.
The link I gave has a lot of references/links at the end.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/01/white-helmets-channel-4-bbc-guardian-architects-war/

I looked at one example, and I found her analysis absolutely correct: This is all staged
There are also incredible comments to that video, from some firefighters that are just laughing at various errors the actors in the video are doing while handling rescue equipment:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/10/07/video-white-helmets-miraculous-rag-doll-rescue/

The Corbettreport discusses the Guardian article you referred to:


On the web,you can find examples like this, from their production of propaganda films:


Another Guardian article, discussing the Western/UK funding of pro-jihadist propaganda in Syria. (It also mentions some atrocities by the Jayish group):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/03/how-britain-funds-the-propaganda-war-against-isis-in-syria
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 12:10:58 AM by Hefaistos »

sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2018, 11:56:32 PM »
Quote
Above is a screenshot from the WhiteHelmet/AMC video. There is one White Helmet in full uniform on the left “checking” the body. The guy in the centre is unarmed but certainly looks more like a fighter than a first responder and the guy on the right is still wearing what could be identified as a militant headdress while sporting a White Helmet jacket. At this point, according to witness testimony, these bodies had already been picked clean of their valuables and belongings before these faux humanitarians starred in another of their cameo roles as rescue workers.

This is an excerpt from Hefaistos' earlier second link, by Beeley.  I consider this to be vague anecdotal conjecture rather than real journalism.  A headdress and White Helmet shirt are also worn together in this Snopes piece: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cnn-same-refugee-girl/
Does that really indicate anything nefarious?

It is just one excerpt, but is not out of character.  Many of the links in the article are to other 21stcenturywire pieces or to mintpressnews, and many unsupported assertions are made.  I personally do not find this kind of "reporting" to be of any value.

Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2018, 11:56:42 PM »
Bellingcat has the same problem as Rachel Maddow: Too much stuff out there.

If you seriously think NATO and Russia produce the same amount of fake news these days - get your brain examined, pretty please. Buddhists offer workshops on brain self-examination. No need yet to see a psychologist, but you are coming close to clinical symptoms. Sorry.

Martin, you seem to be out of arguments?
Neven is seriously discussing some very relevant facts about Bellingcat, but what are you doing?

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2018, 12:07:30 AM »
I can't speak for Terry, but I don't think he's mad at Bellingcat. He's just saying one can't rely on it uncritically, because it has clear biases. Just as with RT and Sputnik, or Fox, CNN and MSNBC.
Sorry, Neven, you need your brain examined. Serioiusly. Or maybe try to forget about politics and focus on Earth and science. I'm sorry, your all-same-ism is pathological.

Bellingcat is about producing evidence and checking fake evidence. That's why Putinophiles and Assadophiles don't like it.

A voice from the madhouse:
I'd advise that anyone quoting Eliot "bellingcat" Higgins is almost certainly a source of disinformation.


What, pray tell has your experience been with young Elliot.
I've only known him since he was posting from his "mom's", after he'd lost that awful sales job.


He learned something of geo-location back then, but when he changed his online name, and started his own blog, he apparently forgot that the strength of crowd source geo-location lies in having all sides and biases represented.
I wasn't much use myself, I've never been to Russia or the Ukraine, but I did get to where I could identify and discern between Russian gas stations and Ukrainian ones. I could usually tell a Russian highway by the guardrails, and identify a few of the gross differences between Soviet era tanks and the Russian models that came later.


It wasn't a case of disliking Elliot, more a case where he drifted from being an extremely biased observer, to a participant who was less and less reliable about his observations.
Remember when the video of the Russian tanks going into Georgia was presented to a sitting Congress as evidence of Russian tanks rolling into Donbas? That isn't biased observation, that's prevarication.


What was you own expertise? How did you come to know him?
Terry

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2018, 12:23:33 AM »
I can't imagine all of the White Helmets being fake, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is used as a cover for spreading disinformation/propaganda (given the funding, etc). If they're on the side opposing Assad, it also seems highly unlikely that they're not working together with jihadists, so that's a bit dodgy as well.

My bias is simply that when all corporate media and the good liberals on social media sing the praise of some organisation, or demonize some other entity, I surmise that the truth is probably different. I can't help that, sorry. I'm a suspicious person.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2018, 12:29:27 AM »
Martin, you seem to be out of arguments?
I'm out of patience!
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2018, 12:38:59 AM »
I don't think it's much of a secret that Western nations have sought to undermine Assad and Russia has sought to support him.  Evidence of the former does not mean the White Helmets are a terrorist organization.  And I don't doubt that their reporting has an anti-Assad bias.  That is very different than labeling them pure propagandists and terrorists, as the the RT/Sputnik/21stcenturywire/mintpressnews sphere claims.

Edited videos are also not conclusive in my opinion.  Any number of conspiracy theories can be maintained by seeking out perceived inconsistencies.  A systematic analysis of many videos would need to be performed.  Selecting a handful of easy targets is anecdotal.

Is there any evidence outside of the RT/Sputnik/21stcenturywire/mintpressnews sphere that indicates the White Helmets are a terrorist organization?  Or anything definitive from any source?

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2018, 12:54:54 AM »
It shouldn't be too difficult to find evidence that the White Helmets have a certain propagandistic side to them. I've read somewhere that they actively push for a no-fly zone over Syria (in other words, go to war with Russia).

How well-organised are the White Helmets? I often think people make the mistake of seeing entities as a monolith with a perfect hierarchy.

Of course, I haven't investigated this (only superficially), but I wouldn't be surprised of some White Helmets are heroes, some are terrorists, some make videos to get the West riled up via social media (offering TPTB to shoot off a couple of billion $ worth of bombs and missiles), some earn a couple of bucks for doing nothing, others (in the West) get paid handsomely for their NGO manager work, and so on.
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2018, 01:05:36 AM »
Neven, I agree with your take.  I think almost all media has a certain propagandist side, and the White Helmets are no exception.  And an organization like that is very unlikely to be monolithic.

That said, the RT and Vanessa Beeley claims appear to be propaganda themselves.

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2018, 01:28:40 AM »
Here is a recent piece by Vanessa Beeley:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/04/08/syria-the-egregious-western-media-chemical-weapon-fraud-in-eastern-ghouta/

She does not hesitate to quote RT:
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421515-ghouta-syria-chemical-weapons/

And here is Bellingcat's explanation of the subtleties of producing IEDs (bombs) vs. producing chemical weapons:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/16/anatomy-russian-chemical-weapons-lab-lie/

(How could they produce the amounts of chlorine gas necessary for a serious attack? And, heck, why not just buy it from standard industrial chemical suppliers? And then, where is their vertical catapult???? )

Summa summarum:  Beeley is crap. Don't bother.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:36:18 AM by Martin Gisser »
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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2018, 02:08:11 AM »
I suppose everyone has forgotten the discussion we so recently had about the rebel chemical lab with the American equipment?
It was only days later that that chemicals were purportedly used in the very same neighborhood. Imagine my surprise!


As Assad closed in on the last of the rebels he warned of a CW false flag, The Russians warned of a false flag. Hell, even a Congressman took to the air to warn of the coming false flag.
Then it occured and everyone pretended that they believed it was real. They even pretended that they gave a damn for Syrian children - just before they sent in the missiles.


I care so much for your families that I'll bomb them to keep you from harming them.

Shades of the heroic FBI "Special" agents, (they're all "Special", and they do not have to ride in the short bus). Those wonderful, caring "Special"heros who were afraid that they might get hurt if they weren't in tanks when they toasted all of those little kids in Waco, because someone might have been "abusing" them.
Live babies that might be suffering abuse. Dead toasted babies that suffer the fear and pain of being roasted alive. What a difficult choice.


We certainly would have investigated but he might have hurt one of our "Special" agents.


Now one of these "Special" people is investigating the Elected President.


Damn glad Canada is without Presidents and "Special Agents"
Terry




Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2018, 09:48:25 PM »
People in the corporate media are catching on to what Dore said two years ago:

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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2018, 09:15:30 AM »
People in the corporate media are catching on to what Dore said two years ago:

Neven, do you have a reference to what he said two years ago ?
Because Jimmy did not provide one.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2018, 09:23:08 AM »
Regarding good and bad journalism, let me give two examples about the Douma chemical attack :

One : Bellingcat :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

This report uses publicly available evidence to conclude that :
Quote
Based on the available evidence, it is highly likely the 34+ victims killed in the 1930 attack on the apartment building near al-Shuhada Square were killed as a result of a gas cylinder filled with what is most likely chlorine gas being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

Anyone can contest that conclusion, by showing that Bellingcat misinterpreted the evidence itself.

Second : Fisk's report from Douma :
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Here we have a report that is based only on opinions, with the main witness declaring that "he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself ".

Now, which report is better ?
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2018, 10:41:35 AM »
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

Either way, missiles shouldn't have been shot. But, of course, they had to be shot.
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Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2018, 11:20:58 AM »
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

Either way, missiles shouldn't have been shot. But, of course, they had to be shot.

As usual with Bellingcat, they are jumping to conclusions. This goes for some analyses they've made of chemical attacks in Syria, at least.
Their method is to build up a disguise of credibility, but the chain of evidence is broken at vital points.

E.g., the evidence in Douma isn't clear at all, see:
https://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es/2018/04/cw-barrel-bomb-that-wasnt-there.html

Those gas canisters have been tampered with, moved.
And that was before the Syrian army or the Russians got there.

Review
* Midnight April 7/8, just after attack: cylinder seemingly not there
* Sometime April 8: cylinder there, unseen photos
* App. 1 pm April 8 or 9: video of cylinder there (seen frame)
* App. 3 pm April 9: Russian investigators visit, apparently find it not there (can we have video for that part?)
* 7:02 pm April 9 (presumed): video of cylinder there, but in a different position

Tunnelforce9

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2018, 02:02:10 PM »
Not sure if you read this but here is an example of Good Journalism...

Quote
Only the Nusra Front seized the chemical weapons. Abu Ahmad watched as the al Qaeda affiliate called in 10 large cargo trucks, loaded 15 containers with chlorine and sarin gas, and drove them away to an unknown destination. He did not see what happened to the mustard gas.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/17/how-the-islamic-state-seized-a-chemical-weapons-stockpile/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2018, 02:43:36 PM »
Neven, do you have a reference to what he said two years ago ?
Because Jimmy did not provide one.

Sorry, had to look for it (I knew he had said it on TYT a couple of times). Here's an example from a little over two years ago. The whole segment is worth watching, but Dore comes in at 4:30:

https://youtu.be/oOQEVbQdkzo?t=270

Don't underestimate Dore's perspective. He makes mistakes and can go over the top occasionally, but his overall perspective is very strong. He knows how to put it in words in an authentic way. Oh, and he's funny. Funny people are usually smart and have an aptitude for wisdom.

I think Dore is going to be proven right when he said that in the long run it would be better if Trump would become elected (from the point when the only choice was HRC or Trump, of course). With Clinton as president, the Republicans would now become even more powerful at the state and federal levels. Forget about a Blue Wave. Now you have the opportunity to finally pull the country a bit to the left again, but that depends on what happens with Corporate Democrats.

It's all about what you replace Trump with, and how you do it.
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2018, 04:00:09 PM »
Dore provides the standard progressive viewpoint, what many would consider the American far left.    The Young Turks is a popular and influential platform among millennials.  It's not really in direct competition with cable TV, with which it is often compared on here.  Most millennials I know do not even have cable TV, due to its high cost in the US.  TYT and John Oliver are more influential than cable news among the younger generations of Democrats, in my opinion.

I'm not sure about using humor as a proxy for wisdom.  You could then say the same about more establishment personalities like Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, or Samantha Bee.


Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2018, 04:14:06 PM »
I'm not sure about using humor as a proxy for wisdom.  You could then say the same about more establishment personalities like Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, or Samantha Bee.

I didn't say a sense of humour is a proxy for wisdom. I said that funny people have an aptitude for wisdom. That doesn't automatically make them wise. You have to choose to do something with that aptitude.

Jon Stewart kicked ass more than anybody. Stephen Colbert used to be good too. I don't know Samantha Bee. I can't watch John Oliver for too long, though he has some good stuff, mixed with some bad stuff. Bill Maher is out of touch.

Quote
Dore provides the standard progressive viewpoint, what many would consider the American far left.

Yes, the Overton window shifted so far to the right that what is left is considered far left, and what is considered left or moderate is actually right. Whatever you want to label it, Dore has a better grasp of what the systemic problems are than most.
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2018, 04:31:04 PM »
Rob, here's another video from two years ago with Dore explaining why there's a silver lining to Donald Trump becoming president, at 1:00 minute in:

https://youtu.be/i7yPY61vCKA?t=62
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DrTskoul

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2018, 04:55:52 PM »
Rob, here's another video from two years ago with Dore explaining why there's a silver lining to Donald Trump becoming president, at 1:00 minute in:

https://youtu.be/i7yPY61vCKA?t=62

As long as there are effective treatments, not just theoretical constructs, and the patient does not die in the mean time.  Short of the anti-vaxxers measles parties...
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2018, 06:03:08 PM »
Yes, the Overton window shifted so far to the right that what is left is considered far left, and what is considered left or moderate is actually right. Whatever you want to label it, Dore has a better grasp of what the systemic problems are than most.
America is not like much of the world, as I'm sure you are aware.  Non-interventionism and socialism have long been considered "far" left in the US.  I don't use that term in any kind of pejorative manner.  It's simply descriptive.  The reason I'm pointing this out is to explain that Jimmy Dore doesn't have some kind of unique perspective.  His views are shared by a large and growing segment of the US population, and represented by outlets like The Nation, OpEdNews, The Humanist Report, Mother Jones, Daily Kos and DemocracyNow.  That you think Dore has a good grasp on issues simply means that you have views that align with the American far left.

I don't mean to be combative.  I perceive a notion here that all Americans are war hawks brainwashed by corporate propaganda, and that only a few brave souls like Dore can see the truth.  I'm trying to counter that narrative.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2018, 09:04:24 PM »
Oh, and he's funny.
Haven't noted that yet. I find him so full of himself that I can't stand him long. Even without the superfluous factual slips and intended smears I find him dis-entertaining. Ha! Does he also dislike Bill Maher?
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2018, 12:21:33 AM »
An analysis of fake news from a broader viewpoint: Richard King on deeper societal issues:

" ... expertise has a centrality it didn’t have in an earlier ‘era’, or with the possibility that its frequent deployment in the name of everything from politics to diet may be a cause of increasing resentment amongst people whose knowledge and education is below the level required for success in a postindustrial, knowledge society."

"We need another heading, therefore, one stressing less the distrust of power than its unequal distribution in postindustrial societies – an inequality that turns increasingly on education, knowledge and cognitive ability "

"a category mistake – on a confusion between ‘objective facts’ and ‘personal feelings’ – is itself a reaction to a category mistake – to a confusion between politics as a site of conflict between different views of society and politics as a managerial enterprise on which experts should have the final say."

"politics is always about values, and that the liberal obsession with expertise is bound to instil resentment in those whose lives are neither materially improved nor morally relevant in the current liberal mix."

"rightwing populism is an illiberal but democratic response to an increasingly undemocratic liberalism"

"We’ve brought fact-checkers to a culture war."

Read the whole thing carefully. King has thought more deeply than many he cites. You may not agree, but i suggest you think about his argument.

https://sydneyreviewofbooks.com/peak-bullshit-post-truth/

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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2018, 02:18:56 AM »
Andre Damon on the loooong history of fake news:

"Every predatory war launched by the United States against a weaker country has been waged under false pretenses. The Mexican War of 1846 was begun with the lying declaration by President Polk that Mexico “invaded our territory and shed American blood upon the American soil.” The Spanish–American War, which led to the bloody conquest of the Philippines, was egged on by the Hearst press in the textbook definition of “yellow journalism.”

The escalation of the Vietnam War was justified by lie that an American ship was attacked by the North Vietnamese in the Gulf of Tonkin."

"After years of shameless lying to justify predatory wars, the mainstream media has lost the public’s support. According to a recent poll by Monmouth University, “More than 3 in 4 Americans believe that traditional major TV and newspaper media outlets report ‘fake news.’”"

"This is what accounts for the US media’s hysteria, over the past year-and-a-half, on the need to block what they call “fake news.” "

"As former Obama administration official Samantha Power noted last year, “During the Cold War, most Americans received their news and information via mediated platforms. Reporters and editors serving in the role of professional gatekeepers had almost full control over what appeared in the media.” It is to this halcyon past—when the Western governments and their flunkies in the mainstream press were able to lie with impunity—to which the media propagandists are seeking to return."

"The real target of the censorship campaign is not “fake news,” but true news—that is, genuine journalism and independent reporting, which by its very nature contradicts the lies of the war-mongers in Washington, London and Paris."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/04/13/pers-a13.html

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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2018, 04:18:54 AM »
As usual with Bellingcat, they are jumping to conclusions. This goes for some analyses they've made of chemical attacks in Syria, at least.
Their method is to build up a disguise of credibility, but the chain of evidence is broken at vital points.

E.g., the evidence in Douma isn't clear at all, see:
https://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es/2018/04/cw-barrel-bomb-that-wasnt-there.html

Those gas canisters have been tampered with, moved.
And that was before the Syrian army or the Russians got there.

Review
* Midnight April 7/8, just after attack: cylinder seemingly not there
* Sometime April 8: cylinder there, unseen photos
* App. 1 pm April 8 or 9: video of cylinder there (seen frame)
* App. 3 pm April 9: Russian investigators visit, apparently find it not there (can we have video for that part?)
* 7:02 pm April 9 (presumed): video of cylinder there, but in a different position

Thanks for the link to that libyancivilwar.blogspot.com.es blog.
It's overall a fair and balanced overview of the evidence, and I like his attention to detail.

However, after new evidence came in (The Swedish TV4 recording on-site) he realized that the cylinder IS present in the first video from around midnight April 7/8. That eliminates his core argument of his blog post.

But I really like how he deals with that new evidence : He made a update 4/17 stating :

Quote
Comparing the TV4 interior view with the night-time view, something surprising happened. I debunked my own leading argument (at the moment). Guess what? It no longer leads.
and
Quote
I was stumped and disappointed about this for a minute or two. Then excited to own the inevitable destruction of this point, instead of someone else.
and
Quote
Separately, my original guess on hole correlation and thus angle of canister below were also wrong. It was a fair enough guess fom what I had, and the whole issue is now moot.

What is still standing of his post is the observation that the cylinder is moved (or replaced?), between the last picture we have before the Russians arrive, and the first picture we have after the Russians left.

We don't know who did that, but either way the evidence was tampered with between these two pictures. And we need to keep that in mind once OPCW can take a look at that cylinder.

If they ever let OPCW investigate this site.

[edit] As for your original point that this was an example of Bellingcat "jumping to conclusions", let me note that Bellingcat's evidence and theory about this attack still stands.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 04:48:57 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2018, 06:43:01 AM »
Upon thinking about it, I consider the last two posts I made were far too general for this thread. So I created a new one called "Fake News and Society" for those interested.

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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2018, 08:33:54 AM »
Quote
Now, which report is better ?

In principle on-the-ground reports are better than geolocation work connected to a bunch of assumptions (turtles all the way down). Of course, it would've been best if Western journalists would've been there right after it happened.

I always thought that a GOOD article answers as many of the "when", "where", "who", "what" and "why" questions as possible.

Fisk's article doesn't answer ANY of these questions. By his own account, he just "walked away". He never even made it to the site that Bellingcat identified, as opposed to Swedish TV4 and CBS.
https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/3967012
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

Bellingcat addresses ALL these questions, except the "why" question, which can never be proven imperically.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 09:32:00 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2018, 09:40:55 AM »
being dropped from a Hip helicopter originating from Dumayr Airbase.

I don't believe Bellingcat has provided detailed evidence for this, except for two unnamed aircraft spotters. It's impossible to affirm or contest that conclusion without more information.

I'm also not sure there is sufficient evidence to show the cylinders have been dropped from the air. You said the one on the bed should be discarded. The other one on the roof, I haven't looked at properly. Are there close-up pictures of it?

I also still don't understand how it happened exactly. So, the cylinder is dropped, remains stuck in the roof, the gas comes out quickly/slowly and then spreads across the building?

Neven, if you would know the first and last name of the aircraft spotters, would that make any difference ?

In general, skepticism is healthy, but there comes a point where "war crimes denial" kicks in.

Do you understand that the alternative theory you suggest implies that numerous organizations conspired at the same time to :

1) place a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and
2) somebody to place 34 bodies in that house, without anyone noticing, and
3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack, and
4) aircraft spotters to post on Sentry Syria to record 30 minutes ahead of time to report Hip helicopters to head towards Douma, and
5) doctors from the WHO conspiring to report that 500 people showed “signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-ghouta-who/who-500-syrian-patients-show-symptoms-pointing-to-toxic-weapons-exposure-idUSKBN1HI18D

Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 09:58:38 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Zeug Gezeugt

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2018, 09:59:19 AM »
Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?

Why not? The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2018, 10:05:32 AM »
Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?

Why not? The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

You still would have to explain the 5 points that I noted above.
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