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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 79577 times)

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #150 on: April 23, 2018, 05:28:58 PM »
Every advantage has its advantage, as JC was wont to say.  ;)
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #151 on: April 23, 2018, 05:41:25 PM »
Indeed I should let Rob speak for himself.  I haven't noted him showing any support for the missile strikes against Syria though.  Maybe he has and I missed it.  Until he does that, I don't think it's fair to assume he is a warmonger.

I'm not equating Dore with Nazi sympathizers.  Nazis are beyond simply far right.  They are an extreme fringe group.  The Tea Party/Freedom Caucus is what I consider far right, as it represents a sizeable portion of the population.  On the left, I would say communists or anarchists are the rough equivalent to Nazi sympathizers.  Dore and socialists are far left in the US, but still represent a sizeable contingent.

I'm glad that Jimmy Dore is only a small portion of your media consumption, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.  The CNN segment was rather ridiculous to me.  He was bent out of shape by one sentence at the very end of a lengthy article pointing out that some advertisers were paying for spots on programs they weren't aware of.  The description of Dore as a far left site that pushes conspiracy theories is a fair characterization in my view.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.


Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #152 on: April 23, 2018, 05:46:53 PM »
If the establishment left isn't communist, anarchist or socialist, then ask yourself: What is it?

Quote
I'm glad that Jimmy Dore is only a small portion of your media consumption, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.

No problem. I think Jimmy Dore isn't pushing that many conspiracy theories, a term that is devoid meaning, as it is mostly used to as a dog whistle nowadays, to cover up for the real conspiracies. What Jimmy Dore is doing most of all, is showing how establishment politics is failing and why. You can say whatever you like about him, but he's quite an astute observer and analyst when it comes to the larger picture. And he doesn't play games, being very clear about what he stands for.

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The CNN segment was rather ridiculous to me.  He was bent out of shape by one sentence at the very end of a lengthy article pointing out that some advertisers were paying for spots on programs they weren't aware of.

How would you react if they equate you to nazis and pedophiles? Of course, he's happy they did so, because it will make him stronger and he probably can sue CNN for slander.

Even people who are more moderate left and dislike Dore for being so outspoken, thought it wasn't fair to describe Dore the way the CNN reporter did.

Here's Sam Seder:



But Cenk Uygur really nails what CNN is doing here:



Quote
The description of Dore as a far left site that pushes conspiracy theories is a fair characterization in my view.  It doesn't mean he's wrong.

It's not a fair description because a) he does much more than that, and b) doubting mainstream narratives isn't the same as pushing conspiracy theories. You can disagree with his style, or whatever, but Dore has quite a firm grasp of the systemic problems the US is facing.

And the establishment 'left' isn't going to solve them. Quite the contrary, they're part of the problem, some of them consciously so.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:00:53 PM by Neven »
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #153 on: April 23, 2018, 06:08:27 PM »
As for independent media I like to watch, that's an example of rather good journalism IMO, and that should be more accessible than Jimmy Dore:

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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #154 on: April 23, 2018, 08:33:19 PM »
If the establishment left isn't communist, anarchist or socialist, then ask yourself: What is it?
This is exactly my point.  In Europe, socialism is mainstream/establishment left.  In the US, it is not.  The official Democratic platform is one that promotes many left wing policies, but stops well short of socialism: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

Those policies are largely left wing, as seen in this chart: https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/

But passages like this one differ quite a bit from socialism and the European left:
Quote
We believe our military should be the best-trained, best-equipped fighting force in the world, and that we must do everything we can to honor and support our veterans. And we know that only the United States can mobilize common action on a truly global scale, to take on the challenges that transcend borders, from international terrorism to climate change to health pandemics.

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How would you react if they equate you to nazis and pedophiles? Of course, he's happy they did so, because it will make him stronger and he probably can sue CNN for slander.
I don't think good journalists should be flinging mud at each other (CNN included).  The CNN article was not a hit piece on Dore, even though it did mention him negatively (which they probably should not have done).  Responding with a rant like that and threatening to sue tells me that Dore is reactionary and immature, at least in this case.  He claims it's about journalism, not money, while his complaint is against a smear aimed at demonetizing his channel.  Seems incredibly hypocritical, especially considering that he brought this same demonetizing issue up last year.

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Even people who are more moderate left and dislike Dore for being so outspoken, thought it wasn't fair to describe Dore the way the CNN reporter did.
The moderate left dislikes Dore because he's socialist, not because he's outspoken.  And of course you'll find individual opinions that cross political lines.  Cenk Uygur is definitely not moderate left though.

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It's not a fair description because a) he does much more than that, and b) doubting mainstream narratives isn't the same as pushing conspiracy theories. You can disagree with his style, or whatever, but Dore has quite a firm grasp of the systemic problems the US is facing.
He is indeed pushing the same conspiracy as many in these threads.  Doubting the mainstream narrative is not necessarily the same as pushing conspiracy theories.  But claiming a hoax or a false flag is pushing a conspiracy.  And again, he could be right.  But the CNN statement is entirely factual if 1) hoaxes and false flags are considered conspiracies and 2) his show promotes far left viewpoints.  I agree that the statement was unprofessional and unwise.  But calling it slander and threatening to sue is right out of the Monckton or Trump playbook.

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And the establishment 'left' isn't going to solve them. Quite the contrary, they're part of the problem, some of them consciously so.
Yeah, we have a whole thread devoted to that topic.  I'm not an apologist for the establishment left, or any other political creed.  I don't think Rob or Steve are either.  I think calling anyone who doesn't ascribe to Dore's hoaxes a warmonger is unproductive at best.  There's an inherent contradiction in your proposed link between the Western media's narrative and warmongering, given that much of the US accepts the narrative while also opposing the missile strikes.  It is that very large contingent encompassing the moderate left, libertarians and Tea Party that I think you are misreading.  This isn't the same atmosphere as 2003.

Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2018, 10:32:41 PM »
The mail on sunday, finally an apology for falsehoods on climate change. David Rose also wrote misleading articles on Iraqi WMD.

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2018, 11:15:26 PM »
"Doubting the mainstream narrative is not necessarily the same as pushing conspiracy theories.  But claiming a hoax or a false flag is pushing a conspiracy. "

Wait, what ?

The mighty wurlitzer is playing the tune that  Assad gassed Ghouta. Opposing the claim requires that

a) the gas attack did not occur (which is labelled in the quote as "hoax")

or

b) It did, but Assad didn't do it (labelled as "false flag")

I can play at this game too. I could label the wurlitzer's claim as "lies." Or I could label it  also as a "conspiracy theory."

One man's hoax is another's scripture.

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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #157 on: April 23, 2018, 11:46:50 PM »
a) the gas attack did not occur (which is labelled in the quote as "hoax")
The "hoax" is that the attack was staged, not just that it didn't happen.

Quote
b) It did, but Assad didn't do it (labelled as "false flag")
"False flag" implies that a covert action took place to achieve a deliberately deceptive appearance, not just that Assad didn't do it.

Both of those require plotting by a group with ulterior motives, which is what I consider to be the definition of "conspiracy".  I don't define "conspiracy" as wrong or even unlikely.

zizek

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #158 on: April 23, 2018, 11:59:34 PM »
On the left, I would say communists or anarchists are the rough equivalent to Nazi sympathizers. 

 I keep hearing this take from anti-communist liberals. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually provide a thought out reason to it. I'd love it if you could be the first.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #159 on: April 24, 2018, 12:05:03 AM »
I think what sedziobs meant to say, was that it doesn't get more left than that, not necessarily that communism is as inherently destructive as fascism (being predicated on ultra-nationalism).
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sedziobs

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #160 on: April 24, 2018, 12:34:42 AM »
I keep hearing this take from anti-communist liberals. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually provide a thought out reason to it. I'd love it if you could be the first.
As Neven implied, I'm not trying to justify or assess the merits of any position, my own included.  I'm just trying to portray the American political landscape as it stands today.  Communists and Neo-Nazis each have memberships that amount to less than 10,000.  I consider that to be fringe. 

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #161 on: April 24, 2018, 07:32:40 AM »
I don't think Rob or anyone else here is fine with how this all worked out.  It's possible to both analyze evidence as it's presented AND to disagree with the response of the US, UK and France.
 

Fair enough, but I think you should let Rob speak for himself. There are plenty of people who are convinced that Assad is responsible for the chemical attack, and thus anything goes. I don't agree with the argument, but one can make it.

To go through the attack itself is sort of interesting as a mystery that needs to be solved, but we could be doing that every day because this kind of atrocities happen every day, all around the world. Personally, I'm more interested in how it fits in the bigger picture of things. It's interesting to talk about how much ice melted in the Bering Sea Okhotsk today, but in the end it's AGW we want to know about.

I don't have much of an opinion about the strikes. I'm glad there were no civilian casualties, and no escalation of the conflict. I also think they did not do much good (in the sense of reducing Assad's chemical weapons capabilities).

I also don't think it matters much in the big picture.
Assad killed 1,600 civilians in Eastern Ghouta this year alone using mostly conventional weapons.
And that was all OK with the international community ?

Knowing the limited influence we can have, what I find more interesting is that we have all have a good understanding of the facts of what is actually happening in Syria.

That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 08:04:20 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2018, 03:30:27 AM »
That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.

This is a very detailed timeline of original appearances of videos and photos of the Douma chemical incident. Throws up many discrepancies.

(Yes. I know it is by Steve McIntyre, of all people !)

https://climateaudit.org/2018/04/24/douma-videos-and-photos/

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2018, 05:41:31 AM »
That means fighting (Russian/Syrian) war-propaganda by using publicly available evidence.
Because in a war, publicly available open source evidence is all you can rely on.
The rest is just talk.

That's why the open source journalism like Bellingcat is so important in separating fact from propaganda in the mess that is Syria.

This is a very detailed timeline of original appearances of videos and photos of the Douma chemical incident. Throws up many discrepancies.

(Yes. I know it is by Steve McIntyre, of all people !)

Should have raised a yellow flag right there :
If there is anyone who can mis-interpret evidence, it is good old Steve McIntyre.

Rather than trying to debunk, or put into context, every part of his entire post, can you mention which one of the alleged "discrepancies" you find most convincing ?
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Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #164 on: April 25, 2018, 09:06:39 PM »
Yes I anticipated an ad hominem attack re McIntyre.

But I am trying to be fair minded, this is not climate related and credit that he has done a large amount of work piecing this together.

The altering of the dead bodies from video to video I find particularly disturbing. Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

Of course then there is the other claim that victims may have died elsewhere (perhaps suffocated in a fire) and were brought after death to the massacre house.




Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #165 on: April 26, 2018, 06:11:05 AM »
Yes I anticipated an ad hominem attack re McIntyre.

That was not an ad hominem attack. It was a statement of fact. McIntyre repeatedly has shown to mis-interpret climate data, with the purpose of creating 'doubt' about climate science.
Each time his mis-representations were debunked by climate scientists, in the scientific literature and on RC.
 
For example, for years he repeatedly mis-interpreted data and methods used in MBH 98 for the reconstruction of global temperature (the hockey stick graph). And then there was ClimateGate, where McIntyre played a key role in mis-interpreting climate scientists email correspondence.

But I'm sure you are aware of all that.

Quote
But I am trying to be fair minded, this is not climate related and credit that he has done a large amount of work piecing this together.

I wonder why he did go through these gruesome videos, since there is not a lot he can conclude from it. I have neither the time nor the stomach to verify all his claims about the video's he analyzed, so in my response below, I will for now assume that all his factual claims about moved people are true.

Quote
The altering of the dead bodies from video to video I find particularly disturbing.

You probably mean the 'moving' of the bodies between videos.
I find that disturbing also, but it doesn't need to mean anything malicious.
I can imagine that they were quite in shock when they found these people dead, and

- They may have moved the bodies when they were looking for survivors, or
- They may have moved some bodies outside if they believed they were still alive, or
- They may have moved the bodies to take better pictures of their faces for later identification, or
- They may have moved the bodies to separate the ones that were identified from the ones that were not yet identified, or
- They may have moved bodies to show them on camera (like they did with the baby) to the rest of the world,
- We don't know what they felt when they moved these bodies, or if they were even thinking straight after they found all these dead people...

Either way, to me, this chaotic moving of bodies suggests that they did no pre-plan any of this.

Quote
Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

I think McIntyre only mentioned ONE such case : A woman who has foam on her left cheek in the second video. However, in the first video only her right cheek is visible. So I don't understand why McIntyre concludes that 'foam was applied'. Did I miss something ?

Quote
Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

I don't have enough experience to conclude anything here.
I'd just like to note that we don't know what killed these people.

There were many reports by medical personnel of symptoms of exposure to Chlorine gas, but also 'something else'. Here is just ONE example :

Quote
“Something was working on the nervous system,” said a doctor who asked not to be named. “Chlorine doesn’t do that. While there was clearly chlorine on some of the people we treated, there was also something else.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/12/syria-attack-experts-check-signs-nerve-agent

Quote
Of course then there is the other claim that victims may have died elsewhere (perhaps suffocated in a fire) and were brought after death to the massacre house.

Again, to me, this chaotic moving of bodies suggests that they did no pre-plan any of this.

If they really wanted to 'stage' this scene with bodies brought in from outside, I would have expected a much more organized effort, of documenting the scene and then proceed with some structured post-mortem process, rather than move people around and videotape it again.
That just doesn't sound like a pre-planned staging effort to me.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 06:27:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #166 on: April 26, 2018, 11:07:47 AM »

Appearance of foam in later videos on bodies that lacked foam in earlier videos.

I think McIntyre only mentioned ONE such case : A woman who has foam on her left cheek in the second video. However, in the first video only her right cheek is visible. So I don't understand why McIntyre concludes that 'foam was applied'. Did I miss something ?

Quote
Cause of death in situ sarin or in situ chlorine poisoning ? It doesn't seem likely to me that chlorine could kill people on the spot. McIntyre makes point that victims lack essential characteristics of nerve agent poisoning e.g. (1) rather than pupils being contracted to a pinprick (miosis), they are, if anything, dilated; (2) per Denis O'Brien, nerve agent victims lose bowel control, but no evident soiling. Etc.

I don't have enough experience to conclude anything here.
I'd just like to note that we don't know what killed these people.
 

Quite right.  He puts too much weight on the appearance of some pupils.  Nobody claimed the toxic gas was Sarin in particular, there are other classes of toxic gases.  And while it's true that organophosphate poisoning gives constricted pupils, who knows how long this finding persists after death?  Or maybe people were provided atropine syringes to inject themselves if they thought they were exposed to nerve agents--soldiers are provided these.  Atropine (or other anticholinergics) would dilate pupils.

His analysis misses the forest for the trees.  A room full of women and children's fresh corpses are in the middle of a war zone, with no evidence of physical trauma.  Repeated claims of toxic gas use in other areas of the war suggests similar demise here.

Buddy

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #167 on: April 26, 2018, 06:22:35 PM »
Looks like FOX and Friends is starting a new feature called: "The Morning Meltdown"  ;)....

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #168 on: April 26, 2018, 10:35:00 PM »
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):

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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #169 on: April 27, 2018, 12:42:47 AM »
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):


Well, yeah, that's a stupid correspondent, a point Dore beats like a dead horse.  Bad comedy.

If she were confident that only chlorine gas was used, not necessarily so stupid, as you'd need more than a snort-full from an object (some hours after the attack) to do real harm.

She does say "that stings."  That's the sort of reaction you'd expect from residual chlorine gas.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #170 on: April 27, 2018, 01:51:07 AM »
America's Finest News Source takes no prisoners. From either side.

https://www.theonion.com/tucker-carlson-unsure-why-he-in-middle-of-20-minute-ran-1825571422

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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #171 on: April 27, 2018, 07:08:22 AM »
Here's a funny example of bad journalism (from CNN, of course):

Neven, you are seriously pushing all my buttons here.

For starters, to call this "funny" is an disgusting insult to the people who died in Douma. You have seen the videos. Even Steve McIntyre does not contest that there were 34+ dead people in that house in Douma. Many women and children, and even babies. They died of something.
No report about that can be called "funny". Especially since there are plenty of reports that present the facts rather than opinions (CBS, Swedish Channel 4, Bellingcat to name a few).

Second, this Dore segment starts of praising Robert Fisk. How well accomplished this guy is and that he is foreign press reporter of the year, and 7 times that is (Dore says : "That's a lot of times").

You know that Dore is creating an argument of authority here, right ?
And you remember that an argument of authority is a logical fallacy ?

Anyhow, Dore continues with Fisk's visit to Douma, and that a doctor there told him that "the people were not suffering from a gas attack".

Now, I assume that he is referring to this article by Fisk :
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

Which states (and we have gone through this before) :
Quote
By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry,

and

Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself

So this doctor that Fisk interviewed was NOT present April 7, and somehow the actual doctors that WERE on duty were all in Damascus.

Since Douma is now firmly back under Assad's control, need I say more about the credibility of ANY statement by ANY doctor giving his full name in Douma ?

Thirdly, Dore seems to attack a CNN piece about Douma, but yet again, he only shows a few seconds of the piece and yet again, her does not reference which piece that is.

And even though I asked you (Neven) before : If you you have a CNN piece that you think is bad journalism, please SHOW THE PIECE ! Don't show it through the mouth of the biased mouth of Jimmy Dore !

Thank you. I'm good now.
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2018, 08:37:48 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2018, 08:51:12 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
A real nose for the news. ;D
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2018, 09:40:57 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob. I just thought that a CNN reporter sniffing a backpack that might be contaminated with God knows what, was pretty funny.
Nothing is funny about the chemical attack. Also you ignored the first two points of my response.
But regarding the third point : Where is the original CNN piece for this ?
And where did they get the backpack from ?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 09:48:11 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #175 on: April 27, 2018, 12:14:59 PM »
Rob, next you're going to ask for the facts concerning a SNL sketch?  ;)

In another video Dore says that the backpack sniff test was broadcast live on CNN, but they cut it out afterwards.

Can you imagine if somehow we would receive incontrovertible evidence that Assad actually didn't do this? That it was a false flag operation? It's a frightening possibility. How many more people will lose their trust in corporate media, intelligence services and world leaders?

I'm actually hoping that Assad really did it.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #176 on: April 28, 2018, 05:24:11 AM »
Rob, next you're going to ask for the facts concerning a SNL sketch?  ;)

In another video Dore says that the backpack sniff test was broadcast live on CNN, but they cut it out afterwards.

Interesting. Dore only shows a few seconds from CNN, taken out of context, he didn't show when or where it was taken, and Dore gave no reference, and you decide that that was an example of bad journalism by CNN ? How about it was an example of bad journalism by Dore ?
Especially since he used an argument of authority to promote a piece by Fisk which by itself was an example of bad journalism.

What is it with you and your love affair with Dore ?

Quote
Can you imagine if somehow we would receive incontrovertible evidence that Assad actually didn't do this? That it was a false flag operation? It's a frightening possibility. How many more people will lose their trust in corporate media, intelligence services and world leaders?

I'm actually hoping that Assad really did it.

Oh. He did it alright.
The moment that Russia and Syria started promoting multiple theories (the 'hoax' and the 'false flag') I knew that they had no evidence for either theory, which is a sure sign that they are lying.
Besides, all the open source evidence we have suggests that Assad did this.

Let's take a step back. Because I would like to understand why you (and others here) remain so skeptical of the evidence and the people who provided it.

Remember the attack on that wedding party in Yemen last week ? 33 dead.
What if Saudi Arabia would have denied they did that, and instead blame a suicide bomber for the carnage in a clear "false flag" attack ? Or even worse, they would claim that local rescue workers (Yemen's White Helmets if there is so such thing) for staging the whole thing. Or both theories would be promoted at the same time.

Would you have similar doubts that Saudi Arabia did it as you currently have about Assad causing the chemical attack in Douma ?

Or would you look at the open source evidence to make up your mind :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/27/american-made-bomb-used-airstrike-yemen-wedding/

And in face of this open-source evidence, would you have questioned who took these pictures of the bomb fragments in Yemen, just like you questioned who took the videos of the gas cylinder in Douma  (or attack Bellingcat ad hominem, as some here did) ?

Do I have a point ? Be honest please.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:10:31 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #177 on: April 30, 2018, 06:32:35 AM »
Here I have three pieces to share of what I think is good journalism.
All three deal with Syria, and specifically the chemical attack in Douma :

First one is by Bellingcat and it is based on open source information :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-153692

What they found in the videos of the 'balcony' cylinder in Douma (on top of the house where at least 34 fatalities were recorded) that there are pieces of the 'launch' system : There are wheels and straps right next to the cylinder, which are used to push these cylinders out of the helicopters. Bellingcat shows that these same wheels and straps are found in dozens of previous Chlorine attacks by the Syrian air force.



This adds more credibility to the theory that this cylinder was pushed out of a helicopter, and also, for the people that still think this was all a 'staged' effort, that the staging must have been extremely accurate in its details.

They also attach an image from Vesti News footage which is really interesting :



This suggests that the cylinder first knocked out a piece of the roof before it fell on the balcony.
Which explains why it did not go through the balcony floor, even if it was thrown from high altitude.

All of this evidence is still most consistent with an air drop, and inconsistent with a staging effort.

The second piece is about Assad/Russian propaganda, its self-contradictions by promoting mutually-exclusive 'alternative' theories, and how it is similar to Franco/Germany propaganda during WWII :
https://louisproyect.org/2018/04/28/the-shifting-sands-of-assadist-propaganda/

The last piece is more philosophical, and addresses a phenomenon I noticed before : That the political far 'left' and political far 'right' of the world seem to unite in promoting a pro-Putin/pro-Assad agenda :
https://pulsemedia.org/2018/04/29/you-arent-antiwar-if-you-arent-anti-assads-war/

With some good educational thoughts on who the far-left are supporting :

Quote
A month ago, a piece published by the Southern Poverty Law Center depicted a political scene ripe for barely hidden collaborations between the far right and a fraction of the Western left, such as the American ANSWER coalition or Party for Socialism and Liberation embracing similar foreign policy talking points as white nationalists.

and

Quote
A left truly independent of state-enforced narratives and emancipated from its own neo-Orientalism would place concern for civilians above all else. It would realise that the biggest perpetrators of war crimes in Syria have been the Assad forces, responsible for above 90% of civilian casualties.

and

Quote
Finally, a left empathic with the suffering of civilians abroad would realise that the limited military action against the Syrian regime only serves to preserve the semblance of what once was supposed to be a inviolable red line,—and that ultimately neither the red line itself, nor the feeble attempts at maintaining it will save Syrians from bombing, starvation, arrests and forced conscription.

If you are part of the political left, and anti-war and are appalled by human rights violations, at the VERY LEAST you should denounce Assad's war against his own people.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 09:01:48 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2018, 02:48:43 PM »
From Russia Today:

Quote
Jokes about WMDs and drones are cool, but Michelle Wolf's media attack too much for DC elites

What is ‘too far’ when it comes to political comedy? Mocking the media for ripping off Trump coverage, or joking about how (oops!) you didn’t find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, after all?

That was a joke made by former president George W. Bush at the 2004 White House Correspondents' Dinner. Then there was the time former president Barack Obama joked that he could kill the Jonas Brothers with predator drones if they tried to date his teenage daughters — because, you know, killing people with predator drones is obviously hilarious.

Bush and Obama took heat for those jokes at the time, but the backlash was minimal in comparison to the slating Michelle Wolf has gotten over the past three days since she took the stage at the WHCD.

Wolf burned down the house at the Washington Hilton during the annual gathering, which assembles a who’s who of journalists, government officials and celebrities. She was caustic. She was irreverent. She sent the left and right into fits of blind rage. Wolf was the comedian the WHCD didn't know it needed.

Her scathing monologue was designed to let no one off the hook. Republicans, Democrats, the media — no one escaped the night unscathed and Wolf is facing a massive backlash for jokes that were supposedly ‘mean-spirited’ and went ‘too far.’

Now, to be fair, many are defending and applauding Wolf for having the guts to eviscerate everyone in the room without fear or favor. But there are also a lot of crybabies among the DC media and political elite.

CNN anchor Jake Tapper made sure to look suitably offended and as uncomfortable as possible when Wolf made a crude joke about Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, lest anyone assume the very serious journalist finds jokes about powerful people funny.

MSNBC’s chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell was so offended by a joke comparing White House press secretary Sarah Sanders to super villain Aunt Lydia in the hit TV series The Handmaid’s Tale, that she actually tweeted on Sanders’ behalf demanding an apology from Wolf. MSNBC's Mika Brzezinski, Peter Baker and Maggie Haberman of the New York Times, and Politico's Kyle Cheney, were some of the other journalists that expressed shock and disbelief at Wolf's jokes.

But America's best known journalists were not simply offended by a comedian mocking a woman who they believe lies to them from a podium every single day about issues of serious consequence. That may have been a cover for what they were most maddened by: her wholly justified attacks on the journalists sitting in front of her.

Mocking the 24-hour news cycle, Wolf complained that journalists “could be covering everything” but instead are focused squarely on three topics: “Trump, Russia and Hillary.” To the CNN journalists in the room, she quipped: “You guys love breaking news — and you did it, you broke it.”

Then came the real zinger.

“You guys are obsessed with Trump. Did you used to date him? Because you pretend like you hate him, but I think you love him. I think what no one in this room wants to admit is that Trump has helped all of you,” she cracked. “He has helped you. He’s helped you sell your papers and your books and your TV. You helped create this monster, and now you’re profiting off of him.”

Ouch.

 As I wrote on Twitter after Wolf’s performance, if there is one thing I learned living in Washington D.C., it’s that too many journalists in that bubble spend a lot of their social time ingratiating themselves to power and feeling very pleased with themselves for doing so. They will tell you it’s all about getting close to sources, but it’s not. They see the powerful as their friends, not their foes.

On more than one occasion, I met established journalists in DC who boasted about their friendships with and closeness to the Clintons, Kennedys, Bushes etc. in clear attempts to impress younger reporters.

There is a myth that DC journalists can simultaneously hobnob with White House officials and also do their jobs properly. But it’s impossible. You can’t be a journalist whose job it is to hold powerful people to account, when you’re hanging out and knocking back drinks with those powerful people at Bullfeathers after work.

Comedian Jimmy Dore put it well in an interview with journalist Glenn Greenwald about this very topic recently: “It’s why in wartime, they don’t let you fraternize with the enemy. Because you can’t look at a guy’s kids and then shoot him.” In other words, if journalists are going to do their jobs properly, they need to be suitably detached from the people they are covering.

But, as I said, what hurt them most of all was not Wolf’s attacks on their powerful friends. It was her attacks on the media itself. She hit them where it hurt. She embarrassed and ridiculed them. She called them out in a way few with a platform have been able to do.

Responding to the backlash, the White House Correspondents’ Association quickly threw Wolf under the bus, releasing a statement regretting that Wolf’s performance was “not in the spirit” of the event. Understandable to a degree, given that the event is usually more of an opportunity for self-congratulation than public ridicule.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2018, 04:48:43 PM »
I really don't lend a lot of credence to people in suits on TV.  Or to the pronouncements of Assad, Putin, Trump or May.
And I certainly don't think any of these events merit a military response.  The US needs to get out of Syria, ASAP.  We can't help the people there by staying.

If this is really what you think, it shouldn't be difficult to be open to other explanations, instead of championing the one we see on the evening news that egged president Trump on to fire his toys.
For those who don't want to waste too much time and neurons, the most plausible explanation suffices.
I for one disregard all those other "explanations", esp.: those
from allies of Assad/Putin (e.g. anything from RT, Sputnik News, Fox News,...)
from 2nd rate media and bloggers,
from elderly famous journalists who admit they have in fact seen nothing,
from folks tending towards conspirarational ideation,
...

P.S.: Wow, Neven, are you now seriously consuming RT? Isn't Jimmy Dore enough?

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #180 on: May 04, 2018, 08:45:24 AM »
P.S.: Wow, Neven, are you now seriously consuming RT? Isn't Jimmy Dore enough?

I know. And it was not even necessary to quote RT. Plenty of other news agencies reported on Michelle Wolf's White House Correspondents Dinner. With similar messages.

For example, the Huffington Post :
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tina-fey-michelle-wolf_us_5aeb15fae4b041fd2d23a868
Quote
Wolf’s performance has both lauded and criticized, but Fey suggested on NBC’s “Today” show that people should have expected her set would be what it was.

and here by Seth Meyers via the NYT :
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/arts/television/michelle-wolf-seth-meyers-trevor-noah.html
Quote
“She is filthy and she is mean — which is what we love about her. Because those are wonderful qualities for comedians, and terrible qualities for free-world leaders.” — SETH MEYERS, comparing Michelle Wolf with President Trump

and here by the examiner :
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/obsessed-media-created-the-trump-monster-white-house-correspondents-dinner-comedian
Quote
Trump 'monster' created by the 'obsessed' media: White House Correspondents' dinner comedian

I think Neven just quoted RT just to piss us off  ;)

[edit] I took out a final remark that was not helpful.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:26:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #181 on: May 05, 2018, 08:11:11 PM »
Why we need a NATO for Infowar?

The Atlantic Council writes that:
"We need a robust defense not just of our borders but of our free and open societies"

or as MEDIUM puts it:
"Atlantic Council Explains Why We Need To Be Propagandized For Our Own Good"

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/atlantic-council-explains-why-we-need-to-be-propagandized-for-our-own-good-fd3470254ea5

A great article, and I'd recommend the comments in both  the Medium article and the Atlantic council article that can be addressed from their link.

I keep reading that it's a terrible thing to read RT, The Saker, or ZeroHedge. It's not. More information is better than less information. Hearing both sides of a story is better than hearing only one side.
We aren't children, and I'm not at all convinced that children shouldn't be learning all that they can at a very young age.
If you aren't open to learning something, why aren't you spending your time playing games?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #182 on: May 05, 2018, 08:23:46 PM »
Nice zinger:

"Russian propaganda is dangerous because when your government decides it's time to go to war with Russia, you might not want them to."

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #183 on: May 05, 2018, 08:26:20 PM »
Cover the poor children's eyes.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #184 on: May 05, 2018, 10:46:01 PM »
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #185 on: May 05, 2018, 11:38:30 PM »
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.

Caitlin Johnstone, the author of that article, also featured previously here):
   https://caitlinjohnstone.com/
podcast page:
   https://caitlinjohnstone.com/category/podcast/

worth to bookmark.

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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #186 on: May 06, 2018, 03:43:45 AM »
The author calls herself an "Anarcho-psychonaut". How fitting.

Quote
What is the threat, specifically? That it makes the public less willing to go to war with Russia and its allies? That it makes us less trusting of lying, torturing, coup-staging intelligence agencies?
The threat is to the concept of facts and truth. -- Just because others are sometimes lying (or perhaps simply stupid - Hanlon's razor), there's no reason to turn to professional liars like RT etc. But that's exactly what the alt-left are doing, incl. folks here.

But heck, who cares? All that counts is what we want to be reality. We are Homo Sapiens, after all. We make the world according to our internal images and whims. And if it doesn't fit, we use black-white either-or logics to trim it in shape. Tertium non datur! Heck, does reality even exist?

« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 03:55:10 AM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #187 on: May 06, 2018, 06:52:50 AM »
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.

Was it ? A good article answers the when, what, who, where and why questions.

It's hard to know where to start and test this article against these 'good practice' rules of journalism.  So let's just start at the first sentence of this piece :

Quote
I sometimes try to get establishment loyalists to explain to me exactly why we’re all meant to be terrified of this “Russian propaganda” thing they keep carrying on about.

So who exactly are these "establishment loyalists" and where and when did they tell anyone to be "terrified" of exactly which "Russian propaganda" ?

And that was just the first sentence.

Overall, I have a question for those who found this article by Caitlin Johnstone 'really good' :

Do you really believe that stuff like this ? :

Quote
western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas.

Because to me this sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Why do you guys think this is 'really good' ?

And what do you think about the ad hominems like this :

Quote
I should note that Braw is a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, the shady NATO-aligned think tank with ties to powerful oligarchs whose name comes up when you look into many of the mainstream anti-Russia narratives, from the DNC hack to the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat to Russian trolls to the notorious PropOrNot blacklist publicized by the Washington Post.

Is this good journalism ?
Seriously.

If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies, and you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy, that's fine. That can be your opinion.

But to start an attack an open-source journalism site like Bellingcat by calling it a "discredited war propaganda firm" is just beyond comprehension. After all, if you don't trust statements of authority then open-source journalism is the ONLY way to find the truth.

Especially since Caitlin Johnstone is so critical of MSM and intelligence agencies, she should embrace open-source journalism, not try to shoot it down with an ad hominem argument.

Unless of course Caitlin Johnstone does not want to know the truth, and just wants to smear the very institutions of the free press. In that case, she succeeded 'very good'.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 07:31:04 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #188 on: May 06, 2018, 07:11:04 AM »
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

"If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies,"

Quite.

"you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy"

Not so.

The first thing i wonder when i read news media is "who wants me to believe this and for what reason ?"

Quite deconstructionist, if you will.  Of course, that's just me.

sidd
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 07:16:58 AM by sidd »

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #189 on: May 06, 2018, 07:36:19 AM »
"If you don't trust MSM, and you don't trust western intelligence agencies,"

Quite.

"you believe that Russian media networks and intelligence agencies are more trustworthy"

Not so.

The first thing i wonder when i read news media is "who wants me to believe this and for what reason ?"

Quite deconstructionist, if you will.  Of course, that's just me.

Sidd I like that. Don't trust any statement of authority.

So would you agree with me that 'open source' journalism, where anyone can verify the evidence because it is publicly available, is the ONLY way left over to find out the difference between the truth and propaganda ?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 07:42:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #190 on: May 06, 2018, 09:42:01 AM »
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

From what I found there is the allegation that the CIA was controlling the media back in the 50's.

That's a completely different theory than the one by Caitlin Johnstone, who asserts that the "plutocrats" control the media.

So which is it ? CIA or plutocrats ?
Or did the plutocrats take over from the CIA at some point in time ? Or is the CIA controlled by the plutocrats ?

I'm just curious how this works in conspiracy theory land.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #191 on: May 07, 2018, 01:06:18 AM »
30 minute interview with one of the greatest english language journalists of our time:



sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #192 on: May 07, 2018, 01:45:34 AM »
"western mass media outlets are owned by western plutocrats, and those plutocrats have built their empires upon a status quo that they have a vested interest in preserving, often to the point where they will form alliances with defense and intelligence agencies to do so. They hire executives and editors who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, who in turn hire journalists who subscribe to a pro-establishment worldview, and in that way they ensure that all plutocrat-owned media outlets are advancing pro-plutocrat agendas."

Precisely. Look up "Mighty Wurlitzer". Going on for a very long time.

From what I found there is the allegation that the CIA was controlling the media back in the 50's.

That's a completely different theory than the one by Caitlin Johnstone, who asserts that the "plutocrats" control the media.

So which is it ? CIA or plutocrats ?
Or did the plutocrats take over from the CIA at some point in time ? Or is the CIA controlled by the plutocrats ?

I'm just curious how this works in conspiracy theory land.

CIA is controlled by the Plutocrats.

CIA watches over the Media.

September Clues reveals  no planes were involved in 911.

What appeared on TV were computer generated images.

http://www.septemberclues.info/
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #193 on: May 07, 2018, 02:06:19 AM »


September Clues reveals  no planes were involved in 911.

What appeared on TV were computer generated images.

http://www.septemberclues.info/

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #194 on: May 07, 2018, 02:10:33 AM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #195 on: May 07, 2018, 02:51:34 AM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #196 on: May 07, 2018, 03:27:36 AM »
Operation Gladio

"in his memoirs, former CIA director William Colby described the setting-up of stay-behind armies in Scandinavian countries, including Finland, with or without the assistance of local governments"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#US_State_Department's_2006_response

http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/colltopic1293.html?lng=en&id=20204&navinfo=15301

Terry

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #197 on: May 07, 2018, 03:44:54 AM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #198 on: May 07, 2018, 05:17:07 AM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.


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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #199 on: May 07, 2018, 05:46:28 AM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.

There were no victims, so it was a murderless false flag:-

Our latest research in 2009 has brought us to a series of remarkable discoveries in the collection of victim stories. What began as an insightful look at the CNN.com 9/11 Victim Memorial, the original source of the death reports, turned into realization after realization that the entire body of victims - from the airplanes, to the Pentagon, to the World Trade Center - had all been created at the same time by an "identity generating" software program which creates 'digital' people with (oft improbable) fictitious names. Anyone armed with a little patience and a discerning attitude should be able to realize that the CNN Victim Memorial is a preposterous list of counterfeit identities. As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml

Also amazing how many lucky people that missed those "fateful" flights -

Over 350 Passengers Canceled Their Reservations or Didn't Show Up ..

http://911blogger.com/news/2014-08-22/over-350-passengers-canceled-their-reservations-or-didnt-show-hijacked-911-flights
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer