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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 79573 times)

SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #200 on: May 07, 2018, 06:19:50 AM »

As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml


That site's owner has an illuminating .pdf file containing his report of his investigation of the names of the victims.  It reads like the rantings of a paranoid schizophrenic.  Here's one quite amusing passage:

"And did you know Chapter 16 Verse 17 of the Bhagavad Gita describes the personality of the arrogant demoniac who performs arrogant “pseudo-rituals” to display their wealth? Surely, they can’t be this silly, to initiate their sim-Genesis with such signs. Well, that is the religious shouting which disguises calculations."

Human Habitat Index

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #201 on: May 07, 2018, 06:24:37 AM »

As a result, the full extent of the 9/11 simulation - heroes, victims and villains - is revealed as the absurd, fabricated drama that it is.

http://www.septemberclues.info/vicsims.shtml


That site's owner has an illuminating .pdf file containing his report of his investigation of the names of the victims.  It reads like the rantings of a paranoid schizophrenic.  Here's one quite amusing passage:

"And did you know Chapter 16 Verse 17 of the Bhagavad Gita describes the personality of the arrogant demoniac who performs arrogant “pseudo-rituals” to display their wealth? Surely, they can’t be this silly, to initiate their sim-Genesis with such signs. Well, that is the religious shouting which disguises calculations."

Information is important, not who delivers it.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #202 on: May 07, 2018, 06:35:32 AM »
Steve stated :

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.

Human Habitat Index answered :

Earth is not flat

Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?
Or were you just short in your answer ?
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Human Habitat Index

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2018, 06:46:53 AM »
Steve stated :

And the moon landing never happened.
And the earth really is flat.
Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Right.

Human Habitat Index answered :

Earth is not flat

Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?


Yes
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2018, 06:47:37 AM »
I stated in my reply to sidd :

Sidd I like that. Don't trust any statement of authority.

So would you agree with me that 'open source' journalism, where anyone can verify the evidence because it is publicly available, is the ONLY way left over to find out the difference between the truth and propaganda ?

Sidd replied with an interview with John Pilger.

Now, I listened to the whole interview, and I did not once hear him talk about 'open source' journalism. Instead, Pilger denies Douma's chemical attack ever happened, and complements Fisk for his report about Douma, since Fisk talked to a 'doctor' who told him nothing happened. Remember that was that 'doctor' who talked English very well, and was not present in the hospital at the time of the attack.

I'm not sure sidd, if that interview was an answer to my question, or if you just choose to ignore my inquiry ?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:08:15 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2018, 06:49:36 AM »
Does that mean that moon landing never happened, and that Sandy Hook was a hoax ?
Yes

Thanks for your honest reply.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2018, 09:14:21 AM »
In my opinion, there are three types of journalism :

1) The parrots. Who just state what people of authority are stating. This side says this, and that side says that. The parrots cover much of MSM, and they leave it up to the reader to decide which side is more convincing.

2) The reporters. These are the people that go out into the field and question witnesses and often visit the scene. This is a much more direct form of journalism, since it does not rely on statements of authority to make up viewers' minds. Problem is that eye witnesses may be biased, or inaccurate, and the scene may have been tempered with. It also leaves much up to the journalist opinion about what to show and what not to show.

3) The 'open source' investigative journalists. This is the new kid on the block. Open source journalism relies only on evidence that is available to the public, often videos and pictures taken by locals. This form of journalism does not rely on authority, nor on witnesses, and neither on journalist's opinion, just on ALL publicly available evidence to uncover the truth about who, when, where, what happened.

Which form do you like the best ?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 09:28:59 AM by Rob Dekker »
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NevB

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2018, 02:52:35 PM »
Earth is not flat

Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders

Incineration will do that to a black box.  Flight 93's was recovered.

I thought black boxes were virtually indestructible.

Watch September Clues if you care about the truth.

911 conspiracy theries belong right here in this thread.
These are good examples of bad journalism where all sorts of nonsence is reported.
As reprehensible as the Bush regime was any involvement at any level in murdering thousands of US citizens could never be covered up. The US justice system is not yet that broken that the people capable of this would expect never to be held to account.

When posting this this morning (Perth Aus. Time) I was dissatisfied that I don't know of any way to quantify good or bad journalism. Just posting an opinion as I did doesn't add anything at all and mostly is simply going to lead to conflict. I spent some time during the day mulling over if this is even possible and what I could do. 

One metric that I thought might be useful is the number of search results:

Googling  "Black Boxes were not recovered at "ground zero"" results in "About 482,000 results
 (0.50 seconds)" - Disappointing as there's certainly no way to determine the relevance and quality of each result.

DuskDuckGo allows filtering for results from the last week and returns five results. Of these only one appears to be relevant. This is https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=882504.

Perhaps a simple search result can indicate how widely a topic is discussed?
Could we then rate how many views each of these items have ?

(In this case the one result is from an Astrology blog and I'll allow my bias to dismiss this as complete nonsense.)

The next obvious step would be to check primary sources and then the official government reports. This would be an arduous and time consuming process. Rob Dekker has been promoting open sources as an answer, this seems a logical step forward though not for this case in particular as it doesn't seem to require any further analysis but in general.

What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?








SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2018, 03:24:49 PM »

What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

I think it's pretty much like judging good or bad academic scholarship.
A neglected detail is whether the piece is written by a specified journalist.  Professional journalists tend to put care in what they write when it has their name on it.  Shoddy work lives forever and can torpedo a career.

Other aspects include whether independent corroboration was obtained prior to publication.

Clear writing is an indicator.  I wish footnotes or hyperlinks were standard in journalism.  When these are included, quality of references is an indicator.

Others can surely cite other indicators.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2018, 04:16:35 PM »
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

From one Nev to another: Good journalism speaks truth to power.

And that's the problem that I and many others have with mainstream, corporate media. Because of the way it is set up, it inherently can speak to power only so far. And that's not very far nowadays.

Ergo, on the whole, mainstream, corporate media is bad journalism. It's designed to condition people and keep their thinking within a narrow, tribalistic, black-and-white way of thinking. Because that's what makes the money flow. Distract and disorient.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #210 on: May 07, 2018, 04:29:26 PM »
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

From one Nev to another: Good journalism speaks truth to power.

And that's the problem that I and many others have with mainstream, corporate media. Because of the way it is set up, it inherently can speak to power only so far. And that's not very far nowadays.

Ergo, on the whole, mainstream, corporate media is bad journalism. It's designed to condition people and keep their thinking within a narrow, tribalistic, black-and-white way of thinking. Because that's what makes the money flow. Distract and disorient.

I think this describes *important* journalism, not necessarily high-quality.  A piece can be important, but shoddy.  It can be high quality, but utterly unimportant.

I agree that the combination is rare.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #211 on: May 08, 2018, 06:32:50 AM »
Now, I listened to the whole interview, and I did not once hear him talk about 'open source' journalism. Instead, Pilger denies Douma's chemical attack ever happened, and complements Fisk for his report about Douma, since Fisk talked to a 'doctor' who told him nothing happened. Remember that was that 'doctor' who talked English very well, and was not present in the hospital at the time of the attack.

Pilger is right.

Right about what ? That the Douma attack never happened ? If so, how do you know ?

Let's go through this step by step :

Quote
Not everyone is up to seeing that. Oh well. Hersh, Fisk, Pilger and Chomsky are wonderful human beings who speak truth to power almost every time they open their mouths or write something down. Another million journalists like that the whole world would be a much better much safer enjoyable place to live.

I can see you really like these journalists.
Rather than "truth to power" (whatever that means), I'd much rather have a journalist (including reporters like Fisk) answer the basic 5 questions any good article should address :

When, where, what, who and (optionally) why.

Quote
It's true if the doctor says so that he wasn't inside the hospital when the filming occurred. That's what Fisk reported. he didn't make it up, he reported what the Doctor said. That's what honorable ethical journalists do. Those that do not are not credible.

You are assuming this guy was a doctor. And so did Fisk.

All we know is that there was a person there who spoke English well, and who was not present at the time, and he said it there was no chemical attack.

So he made an argument by authority, which we know is a logical fallacy.

Fisk knows that, and the fact that he did not tell his audience that is a yellow flag.

Quote
Be clear however, that doctor never said there was a (chemical) attack and many others who were there nearby have confirmed that as being the case. He was speaking about the hospital and the video. All is 'open source' information, so it's questionable why Bellingcat have not included that 'point of view' from known first hand witnesses in their non-stop 'reporting' about this issue.

Bellingcat does 'open source' journalism. They avoid witness reports because witnesses can be tainted, biased, under duress, inaccurate, incomplete, and just plain wrong.

Or they may not be witnesses at all, like this 'doctor'.

Quote
Besides this Rob, I believe there are several huge holes in the opinions/theory you believe about Fisk and doctors. I'll explain a few for the benefit of everyone here. That doctor spoke good english. What that means and why it is important for Fisk to state is there was little to no likelihood that Fisk misunderstood what he was saying and more importantly what precisely he meant. There was no translator intermediary. That's significant.

Right. Fisk would understand what this "doctor" said.

Quote
The doctor as reported worked in that very hospital.

You don't know that. You are just assuming that, since the "doctor" himself said so.

Quote
This means that first he spoke fluent Arabic. Not only could he hear what was being said in the video, but he also knew what the locals the staff and other doctors had told him in the preceding days before Fisk arrived.

You are just assuming that he "the locals the staff and other doctors had told him" anything.
Either way, it would be second-hand news.

Quote
Fisk was reporting what that Doctor knew as a result of being a hearsay witness of the events. Being a doctor there is a degree of default ethics and credibility in his story told to Fisk and Fisk properly recorded that for us to consider. His words carry some weight. I believe both of them but you and others for some unknown reason do not.

You don't know if he is a doctor, and he was NOT a witness.
So his words carry very little weight.
All we know is that he spoke English very well (at least that was Fisk's opinion).

Quote
Reading your past comments here it seems that you have never ever heard of Robert Fisk before this event. You also rubbished the wikipedia entry that reported on his multiple awards. Why anyone would do that based on an absence of accurate knowledge about Fisk is incredible. Because Robert Fisk would be the #1 western investigative journalist in the middle east for the last 40 years. His reputation for accuracy, honesty, credibility, ethics, reliability and truthfulness is without peer. Even Osama Bin laden knew him to be an honourable man who would not lie about anything. He was interviewed 3 times by Fisk. I assume you don't know that either. Because if you did I doubt you would have been so keen to insult his qualifications as an award winning journalist in the first place.

Now you are using the argument of authority again, this time for Fisk.
That is again a logical fallacy.

Quote
So the big question here is not how untrustworthy Robert Fisk's reporting is, the question is the credibility of your own personal opinions, beliefs and background knowledge of the ME in general and Syria in particular. You're no journalist Rob. Please try to keep that in mind. To put that in  a humourous way Bellingcat isn't worthy to tie up Fisk's shoelaces.  ;D

That's cute, but no.
As I pointed out above, Fisk has nothing in this report. The only 'witness' he interviewed was not a witness, may not even be a doctor.

What is even more shocking is that Fisk did not visit the crime scene.
Bellingcat had geolocated the house where 34 dead people were found and there was a chlorine cylinder on the balcony.

Why did Fisk not go there ?
CBS did, and so did Swedish channel 4.
But not Fisk.
He just interviewed a guy who spoke English.
That's it.

Quote
Lastly, and this is really a good one. That doctor as reported accurately by Fisk said the 2 or 3 doctors who were on duty and present when the video/s were done were away. They were in fact enroute or already in the Netherlands for that OCPW meeting and press conference. For some unknown reason you dispute the reports by this doctor because he wasn't present. OK, fair enough on face value, you're a doubting Thomas. Nothing wrong with that principle.

Thank you.
I tend not to 'believe' anything until I see it.
And Bellingcat provided a LOT of evidence that you can actually look at.
Fisk provided NONE.

Quote
But here's the rub. Those doctors who were present did in fact confirm exactly what the doctor told Fisk. 2-3 days after the date Fisk filed his news report. Now given this information is 'open source' and out there in the wild, it begs the question why Rob doesn't already know this? It's been over a week at least.

How do you know that "Those doctors who were present" were the same ones that went to the OPCW meeting in The Hague ?

Quote
And why it is that Bellingcat that champion of accuracy and 'open source' analysis has not reported on what those Doctors those first hand credible ethical professional knowledgeable witnesses had to say about those videos taken while they were present in that very room?   

Because Bellingcat does not rely on witness accounts.
And they don't because of the problems with witness accounts in general as I pointed out above.
Not to mention that these particular witnesses are under Syrian government control.

Quote
The people in that video were not suffering from a chlorine gas attack. They were all suffering from hypoxia having been underground in a tunnel / shelter when some bombing occurred.  They were overcome with dust and a lack of air. eg  “what you see are people suffering from hypoxia—not gas poisoning"

You don't know that.
Also, when reports of a chemical attack came in, it may very well be that these hospital workers took no chances and hosed down everybody.
Better be safe than sorry.
Khan Sheikhoun comes to mind.

Quote
That is why they were being washed down with water to remove excess "dust" to stop it getting worse, and is why they were being given Ventolin to help open up the air-ways in their lungs to help them breathe better.

Are you a doctor too now, like this guy who spoke English ?

Quote
What I saw in the videos were just as traumatizing for the children as the bombing was. They were scared out of their minds trying to breathe with screaming panicking adults all around them.  This was obvious to me the first time I saw those videos. It was obvious to me immediately that what I was seeing had nothing to do with the proper treatment for a major chlorine gas attack that supposedly had killed hundreds of people.

Fatality numbers vary, but mostly between 40 and 85. Not 'hundreds'.
We know there were 34+ bodies in that house with the cylinder on the roof.

Quote
I don't feel it necessary to provide a link to those doctor witnesses confirming the Fisk report of what his Doctor said to him and why. A great test to see how effective 'Open Source' journalism can really be.

You still don't understand that 'open source' journalism does NOT rely on witness accounts ?

Quote
Maybe Bellingcat have published the correct up-to-date information since I last looked at their website yesterday.

They published a new article that shows that if even 1 % of the chlorine in that cylinder would have made it into the house, that it would be lethal to the people inside :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/01/lethality-chlorine-gas-possible-explanation-high-casualties-deaths-following-april-7-2018-attacks-douma-syria/

Quote
... some people go look at Mann's Hockey Stick graph and all they can see is lies and fraud. I think they are extremely Biased. They might possibly be deluding themselves but they are definitely not thinking straight or being rational about it. Happens a lot in my experience. So much for us being the smartest species on Earth. Go figure!  :D

Yes. Some people look at the openly available video evidence that Bellingcat presented, and all they can see is lies and fraud. That there was no chemical attack and that we should trust the voices of authority from a self-proclaimed "doctor" who was not a witness, and the Syrian government.

All in a country that has scores 177 out of 180 in freedom of the press, in what "Reporters Without Borders" calls a "horrendous environment".
https://rsf.org/en/ranking

It looks like you made up your mind and you chose to believe the Syrian government authority narrative rather than the publicly available evidence that Bellingcat presented.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 07:02:08 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #212 on: May 08, 2018, 06:55:20 AM »
What are people's thoughts, is there any consensus that we can build on how to judge what is good and bad journalism?

Several of my friends are newspaper editors, and they claim that good journalism answers as many of the 5 basic questions as possible :

When, where, what, who and why.
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #213 on: May 08, 2018, 07:32:22 AM »
Video can be faked. Careful what you believe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake

sidd


TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #214 on: May 08, 2018, 07:33:29 AM »





Seems as though everyone that actually went there comes back with the same story.
It was a hoax!

Who - rebels
What - hoax
Where - Douma
Why - to draw in the West

Result - busted
Terry


Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #215 on: May 08, 2018, 07:55:56 AM »
Seems as though everyone that actually went there comes back with the same story.
It was a hoax!

Not everyone.
CBS went in and documented the house with the cylinder on the roof.
So did Swedish channel 4.
 
And if you want to rely on eye witnesses, they interviewed this guy who was actually in the building when the attack happened, and lost half his family.



Wonder why Fisk never seemed to make it to this site, and didn't find this eye witness either.
Your OAN segment is a case in point. They never made it to the crime scene either.

Also, if you still believe it was a hoax, you still have to explain a lot of facts :
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/990569464654647296
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #216 on: May 08, 2018, 08:49:29 AM »
Who's paying for your news  is always a good question to ask.

looks like propornot  fake news list is atlantic council, same ones who fund eliot higgins, among others:

https://steemit.com/news/@fortified/fake-news-or-how-the-atlantic-council-promoted-anti-russian-propaganda

atlantic council seem to pump a bunch of anti russia propaganda

https://caucus99percent.com/content/atlantic-council-center-russiagate-hysteria

Bongo is one horrible person. atlantic council gave him an award.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/lobbying-world/303016-the-atlantic-council-questionable-relationship-with-gabons

They cool with eritrea atrocities:

https://assenna.com/forget-objectivity-for-the-atlantic-council-eritreas-prison-state-isnt-that-bad/

They cool with Kazakasthan, too. look it up. They cool with most dictators except mebbe Putin. He should think about throwing em some money.

Early years of atlantic council showing intimate ties with state department and US industry:

https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/96-98/small.pdf

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #217 on: May 08, 2018, 10:03:02 AM »
Who's paying for your news  is always a good question to ask.

looks like propornot  fake news list is atlantic council, same ones who fund eliot higgins, among others:

Swedish channel 4 also fake news ?
And regarding this overview of things-that-must-be-true-if-the-Douma-attack-was-staged :
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/990569464654647296
why don't you argue with these statements rather than launching an ad hominem attack on whoever you deem related to Higgins.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #218 on: May 09, 2018, 05:12:40 AM »
ASILurker, I don't have time to respond to your response again, point by point, as I did yesterday.
You obviously want to believe the Syrian government narrative very badly, and you obviously do not like open source journalism, where the evidence is there for anyone to interpret.

So instead, I'll wait for when you will address the open source evidence itself.
Here are two references in case you forgot :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack

Looking forward to how you can reconcile all that evidence with your theory that there was never a gas attack. Some elaborate hoax it must have been....
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #219 on: May 09, 2018, 08:18:11 AM »
ASILurker, you talk a lot and you say very little.

So instead, I'll wait for when you will address the open source evidence itself.
Here are two references in case you forgot :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/29/pieces-matter-syrias-chlorine-bombs-douma-chemical-attack

Looking forward to how you can reconcile all that evidence with your theory that there was never a gas attack. Some elaborate hoax it must have been....
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #220 on: May 09, 2018, 08:20:32 AM »
What I really hope for is this atrocious inhuman violence and evil all over Syria stops in the very next second!

I share that hope, but that will only happen if Assad steps down and calls for free, UN supervised elections.
 
And that ain't gonna happen any time soon.
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Alexander555

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #221 on: May 09, 2018, 08:27:26 AM »
What if the entire planet unites against the US rob ? Before you can destroy them. If you look at these Americans working at Walmart. After they finished their job at Walmart, they move to their 2th job. And some even to their 3th job. And still have nothing. And for what, to have an army of well paid corrupt state employees. And a bunch of assholes that like to abuse Mexicans for 4 usd a day. And these abused Mexicans are already with 200 million rob. Venezuela is ruined by the US. Half this planet is ruined by the US.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #222 on: May 09, 2018, 08:39:55 AM »
ASILurker, while you pounder that evidence that Bellingcat provided, and explain the videos which show how 34 bodies were found in a house with a gas cylinder on the roof if there was no gas attack, here is one more piece of evidence :

https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/grid-marks-on-douma-cylinder-resembling-those-of-a-fence-is-another-indication-cylinder-was-dropped-by-helicopter/



Open source journalism rocks.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2018, 06:39:17 AM »
For the record I had not seen those 3 pages of information before today.

Wait. What ?
After numerous lengthy posts of yours calling Bellingcat's analysis of the Douma chemical attack a "conspiracy theory" calling Bellingcat and Higgins not credible, attack their associations, and calling them not unlike Watts and Monckton, "The dunning-krugar effect group? ", and now we find out you did not even read their article ?

Instead, you propose a conspiracy theory that is only supported by a "doctor" who was not a witness.

The hypocracy in your statements is mind boggling.

OK, mr ASILurker, it's time to put up or shut up :

If no gas attack took place as you suggest, then how do you explain the recorded evidence that was presented in the Bellingcat articles ? Details of your theory please.

Without a thorough explanation of your theory as tested by the evidence, you are just another war crimes denier.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 07:01:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #224 on: May 10, 2018, 08:56:06 AM »
I don't have a theory to give you details on
...
I don't want to intrude into this thread and bore people. I also wish to lay down a few ground rules for how the discussions will proceed including it being an adhom free zone. Like progressive step by step discussion where you can act like the Prosecution Lawyer, Bellingcat is the 'police investigators' with the key evidence and I'll respond and question that as if I'm the Defense Barrister. Other readers here can be the Jury if they want, and they can decide who won the case at the end.  Whether the charges are proven beyond a reasonable doubt or not?
...
How does that sound to you Rob?

You are so cute.
It's clear now that you've got NOTHING to counter Bellingcat's analysis.
And NOTHING to test your own theory against the evidence presented.
NOTHING at all.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2018, 09:58:38 AM »
Rob would you please clarify something for me. Are those two pages you gave the urls for the sum total of all the evidence Bellingcat has about the alleged Douma incident on the 7th April?

Why don't you address the evidence in these two urls first.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #226 on: May 10, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 12:13:21 PM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #227 on: May 10, 2018, 11:50:18 AM »

So, how about you respond to that first and also answer my last question directly? A yes or no is not too difficult. You are the resident expert on bellingcat here not me. Why can't you address the separate thread issue even? A simple no will be fine if you're not interested and I'll move on.
Possibly Rob is the "resident expert on bellingcat", but I knew and interacted with Eliot Higgins before he came up with that moniker.
As Brown Moses, an unemployed ladies underwear salesman living in his mother's home he participated, or tried to participate in the crowd sourced investigations that began as the Ukraine civil war cranked up. He changed his handle when Brown Moses became a magnet for constant derision because of his blind insistence that Russia was always at fault regardless of what the evidence showed.
As bellingcat he attempted a less inflammatory tone and every post promoted his new web site. To say I was never a fan would be an understatement.
He set great store in his mastery of some on line war game, but how that skill set intersected with an understanding of military strategy or an understanding of fast moving action on the ground escaped me.

Bellingcat today is much more than Eliot pounding away on a computer in his mom's basement. The spooks it seems have pretty well taken over the site, no doubt allowing Eliot to get back to playing his favorite war game.

Arguing with Eliot/Dark Moses/bellingcat always proved useless, I prefered to ignore him, but those that simply laughed at his antics proved to be more effective.

If you followed the Ukraine situation at all you'll remember Graham Phillips as the brave British journalist who was always showing up at awkward times with his camera running. Arrested at least once, he always managed to get back into Ukraine. He posted at the same site as I and Eliot, and has some choice words about Higgins.

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2016/02/28/eliot-higgins-of-bellingcat-who-is-he-everything-you-need-to-know/

I haven't read the whole thing but do remember his concerns about Eliot back in the day.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2018, 12:24:14 PM »
If you followed the Ukraine situation at all you'll remember Graham Phillips as the brave British journalist who was always showing up at awkward times with his camera running.
Hahaaaahaha... A brave "embedded reporter" for Russia.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2018, 12:50:34 PM »

Hahaaaahaha... A brave "embedded reporter" for Russia.


He actually spent far more time with the Kiev forces than with the Donbass rebels.
Didn't you watch any of his broadcasts?
Lousy video and no "stage presence", but a valuable documentarian nonetheless. We'd be arguing about what had happened at a certain place, then he'd show up with his camera and put us straight.


I believe it was he who was the first to notice and document that the trees had been cut down that would have verified which side used snipers at Maidana. We'd been sure that by noting which direction the bullets in the trees came from we'd be able to identify the guilty party. Two days later those trees were gone.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2018, 01:07:44 PM »
Someone who calls himself "the truth speaker" is almost certainly no journalist, but a propagandist. His videos confirm that first impression. You could as well cite RT.

(Image source: UK Russian embassy tweet)

Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #231 on: May 10, 2018, 04:19:20 PM »
The best reporting in my opinion comes from The New Yorker. Here are a few. They've continuously broken the news about Trump's shady mob and moneylaundering connections and items like the latest Black Cube revelations (some of this is off topic, but the stench of corruption across the board and over a lifetime of Trump and his "fixer" and destroyers like Pruitt is hard to miss). Unfortunately, the bad news is coming so fast and furious that real corruption gets buried as yesterday's news.

Quote
The Michael Cohen Revelations Are a Crash Course in Shady Corporate Entities
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-michael-cohen-revelations-are-a-crash-course-in-shady-corporate-entities

The following is only relevant in that Russian interests in the region support Assad:
Quote
The premise of diplomatic outreach was to create conditions for eventual coöperation with Iran on other flashpoints in the world’s most volatile region. Instead, danger looms for deepening tensions in hot spots such as Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen—countries where the United States and Iran have rival interests. “By forfeiting American leadership in the one successful multilateral deal in the volatile Middle East, Trump could possibly make a bad situation worse,” Wendy Chamberlin, a former career diplomat who is now the president of the Middle East Institute, in Washington, told me. Trump Destroys the Iran Deal—and a Lot More
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-destroys-the-iran-dealand-a-lot-more

Quote
Israeli Operatives Who Aided Harvey Weinstein Collected Information on Former Obama Administration Officials
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/israeli-operatives-who-aided-harvey-weinstein-collected-information-on-former-obama-administration-officials

Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2018, 08:49:00 PM »
The look on BBC's anchor Jo Coburn when Home Affairs Correspondent Dominic Casciani mentions MI6's involvement in torture during a live interview today.

I thought they would have had a delay on these "live" interviews. Oops !

link to video on twitter:

https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/994555387117559811



 

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2018, 08:56:01 PM »
My goodness, what was that all about?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #234 on: May 10, 2018, 09:02:25 PM »
Belhaj rendition: UK apology over Libyan dissident treatment.

The settlement is the first time ministers have apologised for a specific act involving British security agencies.

More about the case here, Neven:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44070304


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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #235 on: May 10, 2018, 09:17:36 PM »
Belhaj rendition: UK apology over Libyan dissident treatment.

The settlement is the first time ministers have apologised for a specific act involving British security agencies.

More about the case here, Neven:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44070304

first time in centuries, whow, progress is everywhere [JK]

Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:05 AM »
The look on BBC's anchor Jo Coburn when Home Affairs Correspondent Dominic Casciani mentions MI6's involvement in torture during a live interview today.

I thought they would have had a delay on these "live" interviews. Oops !


The embarrassing BBC video is no longer "available" now on the twitter link I posted earlier. Another bit of censorship, I presume. But it is now up on you tube.


Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2018, 06:23:26 AM »
Rob would you please clarify something for me. Are those two pages you gave the urls for the sum total of all the evidence Bellingcat has about the alleged Douma incident on the 7th April?

Why don't you address the evidence in these two urls first.

To make it easier and less time consuming for both of us, how about instead you chose only one piece of evidence that you accept as a highly compelling part of the bellingcat narrative?

That method is actually going to be time consuming, but if you insist :

The scientific method works by making multiple independent observations to test theories. You rule out theories that don't match the observations. With enough observations, you end up with one theory, which must be the truth.

You proposed a theory (that the gas attack never happened), so all you need to do is explain how all the evidence fits in your theory.

You can start with the first video in the first link, with all the dead people.
That one already debunks your theory that "nothing happened".
Something happened, and this video raises a number of questions for any remaining theory you may hold :

How did these people die in you theory ?
How did they get there in your theory ?
How did they get foam around the mouth in your theory ?
etc.

And remember, you are testing a theory, so you can't answer "I don't know". You need to be explicit in your answer.

After that we can go to video 2 of the first link which shows the same house, and a frosted cylinder sticking through the roof. Which raises a host of new questions.

And on and on we can go. There are 6 videos in the first link alone.

But rest assured, we have been through this already.
If you claim it was a "false flag" attack then you need to answer a LOT of questions.
This guy has 22 of them for you :

https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/09/a-douma-chemical-attack-false-flag-scenario-does-not-make-sense-at-all-here-is-why/
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 07:07:08 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2018, 06:55:10 AM »
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat

I know. And it is disappointing.
This is supposed to be a forum where people argue scientifically, and with reason and evidence.
Since in open source journalism the evidence is there for everyone to verify and criticize, I would have expected that this method would be welcomed with open arms.

Instead, we see relentless attempts to discredit Bellingcat and Eliot Higgins personally with ad hominem attacks, lots of criticism of their associations and funding. But NO attempt to discredit them on the evidence and reasoning they present.

It's really not difficult to discredit and open-source journalism article. Just point out a mistake in their geolocation, or any other part of the analysis. Or point out a mistake in their reasoning.
There are many open-source investigations that have been discredited because the journalist made a mistake.

The thing with Bellingcat is that they are very good in their analyses, and their conclusions are conservative. They don't overreach. In fact, they have never been proven incorrect in their any part of their analysis or conclusions. They are the best in uncovering the truth based on open source information.

Which makes them a BIG threat for everyone who has a pre-conceived opinion, has a bias, or is in the business of spreading propaganda
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 08:20:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #239 on: May 11, 2018, 07:31:39 AM »
Here are some trustworthy resources on the Douma attack etc.:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/23/trumps-erratic-threats-to-bashar-al-assad
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/world/middleeast/syria-douma-chemical-attack.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/obscene-masquerade-russia-criticised-over-douma-chemical-attack-denial

Though it provides the least detail about the coverup some of you are eager to validate, The New Yorker's fine overview is worth pondering. Somebody, perhaps, will back off their partisanship and open their minds to the disastrous state of affairs of reality today. I'm not burking my country's sins over time, any more than a German or Austrian can deny the holocaust. We're big trouble, the US today. Getting Democrats to fight with each other is easy. This stuff is hard.

Quote
Poison gas, which kills with particular cruelty and indiscriminateness, has been internationally outlawed since shortly after the First World War, but in Syria it has become a conventional weapon. (Human Rights Watch has confirmed more than fifty government attacks.) Assad regularly uses chlorine for tactical advantage, and it works—the attack on Douma, coming at the end of two months of bombardment, forced rebels to surrender one of their last important strongholds. But he is also making a point: he is showing Syrians that he will do whatever it takes to hold on to power, that they are helpless, that no one will come to their aid.

Who can argue otherwise? Most of the gas attacks have gone unremarked upon in the outside world, unless they result in horrible pictures, and in those cases the Western response has been so uncertain that it has only encouraged Assad to keep going. Whether the American President is a judicious rationalist who cares about international law and disdains the cowboy image or an impulsive narcissist who is indifferent to every norm and just wants to look tough, the images from Syria are the same.

Trump is in an especially bad position to respond to these atrocities. Unlike every other President since Jimmy Carter, he doesn’t even offer human rights the compliment of hypocrisy. His foreign policy is simple: might makes right. He has championed brutal rulers, like the Philippine President, Rodrigo Duterte, and the Saudi royal family; shrugged at genocidal killings in Burma; and pushed our military to use levels of violence that have sent civilian casualties in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan soaring. Under Trump, it is nearly impossible for refugees from the Syrian civil war to find a haven in this country. John Bolton, his new national-security adviser, describes international organizations and treaties as threats to U.S. sovereignty. On what ground can the Administration punish Assad for defying an international weapons ban and killing civilians?

Seven years of indecision have left us the weakest outside power in the war. Russia and Iran have committed fighters, weapons, aircraft, and a readiness to justify any inhumanity and tell any lie on behalf of their client in Damascus, and now Assad is close to the ultimate Pyrrhic victory. Turkey, defying American pleas, is waging a brutal campaign against the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, our only reliable partner and the ground force largely responsible for crushing the Islamic State. U.S. diplomacy was never aligned with the leverage in Syria that comes with force, and now we have no diplomacy at all. Any action that Trump takes will be feckless at best and possibly disastrous—triggering conflict with Russia, or the war with Iran that Bolton and others want—for there is no strategy to guide it except to “bomb the shit out of them” and get out. Even a joint attack with European allies would be empty without a larger effort to negotiate an end to the war.

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #240 on: May 11, 2018, 12:26:06 PM »
ASILurker isn't the only one here having a problem with Bellingcat.
E.g.:
That was a really good Medium article, Terry. Thanks.

P.S./Edit: Quoth article:
Quote
the discredited war propaganda firm Bellingcat

I know. And it is disappointing.
This is supposed to be a forum where people argue scientifically, and with reason and evidence.
Since in open source journalism the evidence is there for everyone to verify and criticize, I would have expected that this method would be welcomed with open arms.

Instead, we see relentless attempts to discredit Bellingcat and Eliot Higgins personally with ad hominem attacks, lots of criticism of their associations and funding. But NO attempt to discredit them on the evidence and reasoning they present.

It's really not difficult to discredit and open-source journalism article. Just point out a mistake in their geolocation, or any other part of the analysis. Or point out a mistake in their reasoning.
There are many open-source investigations that have been discredited because the journalist made a mistake.

The thing with Bellingcat is that they are very good in their analyses, and their conclusions are conservative. They don't overreach. In fact, they have never been proven incorrect in their any part of their analysis or conclusions. They are the best in uncovering the truth based on open source information.

Which makes them a BIG threat for everyone who has a pre-conceived opinion, has a bias, or is in the business of spreading propaganda

For some time I'm entertaining the "theory" of a cultural-evolutionary split of Homo Sapiens Sapiens into Homo Sapiens Erectus (who tries to walk his brains upright) and Homo Sapiens Trumpensis.
Half of mankind just can't stand reality anymore.
This is not a matter of intelligence or education. To the contrary, intelligent and educated people can make up and rationalize even more bullshit to feed the whims of their ego.

This forum gives some evidence for my theory. And I have some more here in Germany, where non-stupid are eager to believe blatantly obvious hate propaganda from the neonazi AfD party.

I wouldn't have cared much in last century. But meanwhile, given the planetary scale problems this century we (plus planet) can not afford to let Homo Sapiens Trumpensis win the race. We need to grow up and get our heads out of the clouds and revisit the ground below our feet. Time to choose sides.

On Facebook my personal algorithm automatically de-friends anybody who shares Breitbart, RT, etc. In real life I just quit friendship and contact with someone I thought was politically very savvy - but now consumes AfD propaganda (knives, knives...)




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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #241 on: May 11, 2018, 12:30:48 PM »
Rob
Your admonition against ad-hominem is well taken - and back at you.


Eliot isn't wrong because he's an unrepentant ass, he's an unrepentant ass because he is wrong and won't admit it.


Susan
Aren't journalists that actually go to a site to interview witnesses generally considered more reliable than those that stay at their desks while writing of events unfolding half a world away?


Terry


edit -
Martin
Facebook! You maintain a presence on Facebook!
My understanding is that this alone can alter your internet experience. Cambridge Analytica isn't the only one using that data.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 12:39:37 PM by TerryM »

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #242 on: May 11, 2018, 01:30:28 PM »
Yes, Martin, how about a personal algorithm that takes you of Facebook?  ;D

I deleted my account on LinkedIn today, as I was quite fed up with the manipulative mails they were sending me every day.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #243 on: May 11, 2018, 01:44:56 PM »
Martin
Facebook! You maintain a presence on Facebook!
My understanding is that this alone can alter your internet experience. Cambridge Analytica isn't the only one using that data.
Not for me. I understand Internets dynamics, having used it since last century. My first email ca. 1992 from a VAX account took 1 day to cross the Atlantic... Post 9/11 2001 I was part of a subversive/artistic group, fooling and feeding the primitive NSA algorithms with crazy email texts (then they got stuck/delayed in Taiwan), playing virtual brain surgeon, catching google bots in self-replicating pages until my server broke down...

I called FB a "stupidity amplifier" in 2016 before the term "fake news" became popular. Back then I used FB mostly to watch the U.S. election.
But, it can also be the reverse. It all depends what FB friends you choose. Like you look into the Internets it looks back at you.

-------------------------------------

The Facebook Sutta (SN 57.1)
by Bernat Font

Thus have I imagined. At one time, the Fortunate One was staying in Silicon Valley. There, he addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus.” “Venerable sir,” they replied.

“These things should not be cultivated with regards to Facebook by one gone forth. Which things? Thoughts of greed, thoughts of aversion, ignorance of filter bubbles. One who has entered the eightfold path does not engage in individuality-view posting, nor crave for likes, nor has the conceit ‘I share’.

“Bhikkhus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with his device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, thoughts of greed arise in him. Why? Here, bhikkhus, an uninstructed person gives inappropriate attention to the sign of instant, magical solutions. Thus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with their device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, thoughts of greed arise in him.

“Bhikkhus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with her device, which is a rant, an alarmist article, an impressive headline, thoughts of aversion arise in her. Why? Here, bhikkhus, an uninstructed person gives inappropriate attention to the sign of fatalism. Thus, when an uninstructed person senses a post with their device, which is a rant, a catastrophist article, an impressive headline, thoughts of aversion arise in her.

“Whenever an uninstructed person goes online, Mara stands besides him.

“Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple senses a post with his device, which is an advertisement, a TED Talk, an impressive headline, he reflects thus: this is harmful, it leads to craving, to renewed frustration and seeking, it obstructs wise action, it takes away freedom. Here, bhikkhus, seeing much danger, a noble disciple gives appropriate attention to the sign of unsatisfactoriness. He is filled with thoughts of contentment and applies himself to the training, diligent, clearly comprehending and mindful.

“Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple senses a post with her device, which is a rant, an alarmist article, an impressive headline, she reflects thus: this is harmful, it leads to anger, bitterness and despair, it obstructs wise action, it leads away from peace, right speech and freedom. Here, bhikkhus, seeing little benefit, a noble disciple gives appropriate attention to the sign of unsatisfactoriness. She is filled with thoughts of friendliness and applies herself to the training, diligent, clearly comprehending and mindful.

“When going online, a noble disciple is careful to abide in the appropriate pasture. The life of the deviceholder is dusty, full of filters and notifications, but life gone forth is wide open.”

This is what the Fortunate One said, and the bhikkhus delighted in the Fortunate One’s words, and shared them on social media.

Commentary from the author

Literary divertimentos aside, I think social media is such a part of our saeculum and of the world (loka) of those of my generation, that it should be given proper attention from spiritual traditions, philosophies and practices. Several studies have found that, in the way it interacts with our brain, it has the same addictive potential as alcohol, drugs and gambling. Recently, Jay Michaelson wrote in Tricycle that social media should be included in the fifth precept and, at least, be approached with the same moderation that one treats other judgement-obscuring, mindfulness-reducing substances or activities. I recognize the impulse to check my phone in empty moments. It’s strong. Because this is the online world, we are led to think that it is less real or doesn’t have consequences as real, but it conditions us just like anything else. By not including it in those areas where spiritual growth occurs, we are hindered.

If the dharma is about reducing our reactivity, we must consider whether the way we use social media contributes to or undermines such a project. I’d say that the ‘aim’ of Facebook is quite at odds with the aspirations of the dharma. I open my Facebook newsfeed and most of what I see are videos either of that one secret that will magically solve my relationships, my health, my learning a new language, or of the last outrageous incident in the world of politics, corporations, environment, etc. And frankly, they don’t help me solve my life nor enjoin me to change the world. They mainly entertain me. Social media encourage a numb-observer approach to whatever happens, quite unlike the detached observer of meditation: one does react with desire or aversion, one doesn’t discern what’s beneficial and what is not and then translate it into wise actions or greater empathy. To be fair, sharing things through Facebook has the potential for these skillful responses, but it generates far more of unskillful ones that simply agitate us.

Not only does it encourage the first two fires, it also embodies the third. In his reflections on the roots of social dukkha, David Loy suggests that the mass media is an institutionalized form of delusion. On the internet, this manifests as filter bubbles and echo chambers. Facebook, Google, Netflix, Youtube, Amazon, etc. gather data of one’s searches and one’s preferences and use them to determine what is shown to you: I do not see reality, everything that’s out there, I only see what these filters let me, and I can’t access their criteria or know what they have excluded from my sight. One ends up only meeting those things, which already conform to one’s ideas and preferences, which doesn’t really help in the task of gaining freedom. Social media also teach us to filter our experience. People do not share whatever meaningful thing that happens to them: they share what makes their life look amazing and special. Does this not get us used to denying whole areas of our human existence? How do we square this with the first great task of fully knowing and embracing dukkha?

https://bodhi-college.org/buddhist-articles-videos-links/facebook-sutta-sn-57-1

---------------------
Further commentary from me:

Sutta (Pali) = Sutra (Sanskrit)
Bhikkhu (Pali) = Male Monk
Mara = Buddhist devil, tempter

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya (above abbreviated SN) has 56 chapters. Bhikkhu Bodhi's english translation has 2000 pages. It is just one book of the Pali canon, an amazingly huge amount of text (dwarfing the semitic "religions of the book"). Much however is repetition or variation of the same phrases (like the beginning of the above text), a bit boring to read and find the real gems. That style was to accomodate memorization, as the texts were not written down for ca. 2 centuries. Quite amazing for 1000s of pages of text.


Bernat Font from Barcelona/Spain deserves to be well known to the Jazz piano afficionado, but his trio is just a local celebrity. Once I was silently (but very interactively) washing dishes with him at a silent retreat - and it occured to me that this must be a Jazz musician. He is indeed a piano titan.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 02:21:53 PM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #244 on: May 11, 2018, 03:24:51 PM »
Sorry
I'm an unrepentant Pastafarian. No god but the one true FSM.
Ramen
Terry


PS
I wasn't heavily involved in digital communication until we moved away from the 300 baud acoustics and into the modern age at 1200 baud. It was amazing, whole words would flash onto your screen as opposed to waiting patiently as each letter revealed itself. We could alter and correct code and send it out without waiting all night for the transmission.
There was a prohibitive tariff on modems at that time, so we received them in bulk from Japan and "assembled"  them by snaping the two sides together. :)
My favorite list at the time had participants from Shanghai to Egypt, and no untoward lags in communication. Archie and Veronica - how cool was that!
Didn't have my first web page up until 93, and soon with HTML-2 I could even do columns!
I had the 2nd Mensa group website out there. A friend in Orange County beat me to it while I was recovering from a bad cold. :'(


Ain't history great!
but what does it have to do with Russiagate and the Media?

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #245 on: May 11, 2018, 04:10:12 PM »
Sorry
I'm an unrepentant Pastafarian. No god but the one true FSM.
Ramen
Terry
Good. I'm an unrepentant anti-metaphysicist and anti-theist (forget atheism, the other side of the god coin.) No god (incl. no not-god, it's all superfluous neuron wasting bullshit), no rebirth (except within one's lifetime - there's the rub).

The above text by Bernat Font is from Stephen Batchelor's school of no non-sense "secular Buddhism" (a term I don't like - fuck this fucking saeculum). It is all about this life and the continuous re-cycling (rebirthing) of our dukkha ("suffering" - a very simplistic translation). Now with a whole new dimension as internet dukkha.

If you want to see how far this internet dukkha can lead, have a look at the role of Facebook in the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar - the ultimate, shocking, disgrace of classical Theravada Buddhism.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/03/revealed-facebook-hate-speech-exploded-in-myanmar-during-rohingya-crisis

------------

but what does it have to do with Russiagate and the Media?
The dynamics of bullshit bubbles is nothing new to me. E.g. you "enjoy" your Russian bullshit bubbles.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 04:19:27 PM by Martin Gisser »

Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #246 on: May 11, 2018, 04:54:39 PM »
One friend put it well. He said, if anyone spied on his Facebook they might learn something. Meanwhile, it's a terrific organizing tool, for example, for the teachers' strikes and kids protests against guns here. It is used for good and for evil, and sadly nobody is in charge. Personally, I handicap myself by refusing to use it, but that's just me. However, I am here, which is in some ways just as bad, since it is so self-indulgent to think it is useful to continue the same argument with the same small group of people over months and years, which changes nothing.

People hear and don't hear what they want and don't want to hear. I've spent a good bit of time as a "seeker" (yoga: Satchidananda ashram in US, left-leaning Christian, and, ultimately, mahayana Buddhism) and learned a lot from it, and tend to get irritated with people who think they can isolate the world from religion, which has been a dominant force since the beginning of time. People make god in their own image, mostly, but a lot of good as well as bad is done in the name of those "higher powers".

However, recently I have come to feel that the indoctrination into believing things that can't be seen or proven and don't fit with reality predisposes people to discount reality. Hence the dismissal of facts and preference for lies. So religion, or more accurately training in holding to bigotry, is a - or perhaps the biggest - problem. Gun nuts "believe" in guns. They don't think, they feel. Thinking one is superior to others is a problem. And on and on ...

Yes, off topic. Over and out ... again.

Alexander555

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #247 on: May 11, 2018, 05:33:40 PM »
" I don't know how zuckenberg can sleep at night ". Is that fair to say ? I don't think so. If it don't spreads on social media, it will just spread on the street. The only difference is that they know who spreads it, at least in some cases. And with so many people comming together in all these big cities, it can spread as easely on the street in these days i think. Maybe it even keeps some people of the street, if you see how many hours they spend on the internet.

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #248 on: May 11, 2018, 07:51:32 PM »
medialens.org is a useful antidote to corporate media: here is their takedown of Corbyn coverage:

"If there is one message from last week, it's a simple one – dump the corporate media; all of it."

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/850-the-breaking-of-the-corporate-media-monopoly.html

Jonathan Cook on Monbiot's refusal (or inability?) to name the problem:

"This blindness even by a “radical” like Monbiot to structural problems in the media is not accidental either. Realistically, the furthest he can go is where he went today in his column: suggesting organisational flaws in the corporate media, ones that can be fixed, rather than structural ones that cannot without rethinking entirely how the media functions. Monbiot will not – and cannot – use the pages of the Guardian to argue that his employer is structurally incapable of providing diverse and representative coverage."

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2017-06-14/monbiot-still-cant-admit-medias-core-problem/

sidd


sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #249 on: May 11, 2018, 08:03:41 PM »
What is suppressed is worth watching: And how it is done:

“Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States … there simply is no truth in the claims that the United Kingdom has been involved in rendition.”

Heeheehee. Now that's funny.

"Whitehall officials have described the rendition of Belhaj and his wife as the result of “ministerially authorised government policy”. After a four-year police investigation, Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service announced that neither Straw nor Allen would face charges, because of insufficient evidence; though it said Allen had “sought political authority for some of his actions, albeit not within a formal written process nor in detail…”. "

"For six years government lawyers fought tooth and nail in the courts to prevent the disclosure of any more incriminating evidence. After today’s statement to MPs by the attorney general, Jeremy Wright, we are none the wiser about where the responsibility lies. "

"The Gibson inquiry was halted when evidence of the Belhaj case emerged. Cameron decided to hand it all over to the prime minister’s intelligence and security committee of MPs and peers. That committee, which meets in private ... "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/10/abdel-hakim-belhaj-rendition-who-did-it-mi6-scandal-same-old-excuse

Nothing to see here citizen. Go about your business.

sidd