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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #250 on: May 11, 2018, 09:55:51 PM »
Caitlin Johnstone on How to Silence RT Forever

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/05/07/how-to-silence-rt-forever/

Should appease everyone - of maybe not. :)
Terry

Wow, very strong stuff.

Some quotes:

Quote
It always comes back to RT. Because of the network’s relatively high profile in comparison to other Russian media, it has been made into an ideal Emmanuel Goldstein for the empire’s daily Two Minutes Hate. RT is now so completely reviled by establishment loyalists that citing it in an online debate will be taken as an instant debunk of not just the point you were trying to make but of your entire position (and often your humanity itself by getting you labeled a “Russian bot”), even if your citation is comprised entirely of independently verifiable facts.



Luckily for the screaming hysterical Big Brother devotees, there is a very easy and 100 percent guaranteed way to get RT removed from western airwaves forever. Are you ready? Here it is:

Allow leftist and antiwar perspectives to be voiced on western mainstream media.

That’s it. That’s the whole entire recipe for RT’s destruction. If western media simply ceased deliberately excluding leftist and antiwar voices from mainstream discourse, there would no longer be any demand for RT’s output, since the only reason anyone outside of Russia watches RT is to get perspectives they can’t get anywhere else.

A few leftist, antiwar and activism-oriented programs on stations like BBC and MSNBC is all it would take to kill any interest in RT’s programming and steal their entire audience. They wouldn’t ever have to have a single Russian on their programs; there is an abundance of home-grown talent with clear antiwar, anti-capitalism, pro-environment perspectives to keep reliably churning out fresh content on a daily basis, and there is simply no way RT’s feeble budget would be able to keep up.

(...)

This is a surefire way to get rid of RT without violating the US Constitution, committing unprecedented acts of government censorship, or having anything whatsoever to do with the Kremlin. But of course, we all know that it will never happen.

It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Let me Buddify that last sentence for you: RUSSIA TODAY IS NOT THE REAL ENEMY. LEFTIST AND ANTIWAR ACTIVISTS ARE THE REAL ENEMY.
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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #251 on: May 12, 2018, 03:39:30 PM »
An outstanding  example of how the media should be reporting on technical progress:



Terry

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #252 on: May 12, 2018, 04:59:13 PM »
You can't make this stuff up:

Title: "Chatter Grows About Trump’s Nobel Peace Prize Prospects"

https://www.snopes.com/ap/2018/05/11/chatter-grows-trumps-nobel-peace-prize-prospects/

Extract: "President Donald Trump's supporters are pushing for him to be the next U.S. leader to win the Nobel Peace Prize — a move that's being met by smirks and eye rolls in Europe, where Trump remains deeply unpopular."
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #253 on: May 12, 2018, 06:53:18 PM »
Caitlin Johnstone on How to Silence RT Forever

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/05/07/how-to-silence-rt-forever/

Should appease everyone - of maybe not. :)
Terry

Wow, very strong stuff.

Some quotes:

Quote
[...]
Allow leftist and antiwar perspectives to be voiced on western mainstream media.

That’s it. That’s the whole entire recipe for RT’s destruction. If western media simply ceased deliberately excluding leftist and antiwar voices from mainstream discourse, there would no longer be any demand for RT’s output, since the only reason anyone outside of Russia watches RT is to get perspectives they can’t get anywhere else.

A few leftist, antiwar and activism-oriented programs on stations like BBC and MSNBC is all it would take to kill any interest in RT’s programming and steal their entire audience. They wouldn’t ever have to have a single Russian on their programs; there is an abundance of home-grown talent with clear antiwar, anti-capitalism, pro-environment perspectives to keep reliably churning out fresh content on a daily basis, and there is simply no way RT’s feeble budget would be able to keep up.
[...]
It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Reminds me of cold war propaganda from the oh sooo peaceloving Soviet Union. Now we got peaceloving RT.  ;D

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #254 on: May 12, 2018, 08:26:30 PM »
It will never happen because RT is not the real enemy. Leftists and antiwar activists are the real enemy.

Reminds me of cold war propaganda from the oh sooo peaceloving Soviet Union. Now we got peaceloving RT.  ;D[/quote]

Nonsense, Martin. During the Cold War there was ample room for leftists and antiwar activists in mainstream media, especially in Europe. There was a discourse, a discussion, a debate. People didn't agree, but everyone could have a say in the media. There is none of that now. Media has become a corporate monolith. And that leads to a lof of bad journalism.

Johnstone is absolutely right that Western journalists who work for RT and those in the West who watch it, do so because their voice is being suppressed everywhere else. If mainstream media would make room for these voices, no one in the west would be watching RT. But mainstream media has become a corporate monopoly (thanks to Bill Gates) that will not allow establishment narratives to be opposed, because neoliberalism is dogma, and it is of vital importance that enough people remain blind to their conditioning.

I don't see how a leftist, antiwar activist such as yourself could disagree with that, but somehow you do.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #255 on: May 13, 2018, 12:10:18 AM »
But mainstream media has become a corporate monopoly (thanks to Bill Gates)
Rupert Murdoch...

Haven't read the German TAZ for some time. What about that paper? http://www.taz.de/

Last time I cared about polit stuff was before/during the Iraq war. Dunno what I read back then, but I was on Joschka Fischer's side, doubting the "mainstream" war mongers' narrative.

This time it was Trump who got me seriously interested in politics again - for the weird fascination of all the nuttery, rightwing as well as leftwing nuttery.

I got disgusted and turned away from polit stuff in the 80ies, mostly by the university super leftists who where so full of themselves. Maybe that's why I can't stand Jimmy Dore and friends.


Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #256 on: May 13, 2018, 05:06:29 AM »
I had to block Caitlin Johnstone when Medium pushed her material on me. Garbage. I couldn't figure out why she was so "popular" until I realized it is possible on Medium to post multiple votes. Dishonest stuff intended to persuade good people to fight with each other instead of their real enemies.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #257 on: May 13, 2018, 09:30:22 AM »
I'm sorry, I meant Bill Clinton, not Bill Gates. And yes, that enabled the likes of Rupert Murdoch.

Quote
Last time I cared about polit stuff was before/during the Iraq war. Dunno what I read back then, but I was on Joschka Fischer's side, doubting the "mainstream" war mongers' narrative.

A Joschka Fischer would have a hard time getting in the news nowadays, or only to be decapitated.

There is a lot of bad journalism because of the way the media landscape has been set up, and that's why people turn to RT. Not because RT is fantastic. Johnstone makes a perfectly solid argument. Or do you see a lot of leftists and antiwar activists on mainstream media? Do you see any weekly programme that questions mainstream narratives? When was the last time you saw Noam Chomsky being interviewed on US mainstream TV? Just as an example.

This is a much bigger problem than RT's propaganda. It's bad journalism at the core.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #258 on: May 14, 2018, 07:57:50 AM »
ASILurker, three very long posts about Douma chemical attacks.
Is this your way of KIS (Keep It Simple) ? Or your interpretation of SMIF (Social Media Is Fun) ?

Why did you not follow the scientific approach I suggested, to test alternative theories ?

More about that is a second. First some general remarks.
You argument seems to consist of mostly two parts, both which attempt to discredit the theory that Bellingcat concluded :

1) You spend an LOT of text on pointing out inconsistencies in the exact number of victims, and the exact nature of the chemical used in the reports that Bellingcat mentions. Wether it was chlorine, organophosphate, or a mix of both.
I'd like to point out that that argument is still pretty much moot at this point, since we don't know what exactly was used. Let's wait until OPCW turns in their report. They may have some more insight.

Also, note that Bellingcat only mentioned these reports to give some context to the attack.
They explicitly did NOT use these eye witness reports in their conclusions.

If they would have, they would have mentioned organophosphate or nerve agent, since that was quite consistently mentioned my local medical workers.
Instead they mentioned only chlorine in their conclusion.

Bellingcat reached that conclusion by looking at the video evidence, NOT the eye witness accounts.

2) You also seem to doubt that the position of the cylinder, and the harness and the fence and the damage to to roof and the damage to the cylinder could not have happened by dropping the cylinder from the air. Mostly because the fence fell on top of the harness...

I'm sorry, I find that a very weak argument. You don't even know where that fence originally was, you don't know how violently the cylinder came crushing down, what the exact physical interaction was between the various parts at the time of impact, how much stuff bounded around etc etc.

Let's put it differently : If this was 'staged' as you suggest, to "make it look like" the cylinder fell from the sky, then why on Earth would they put the fence on top of the harness pieces ? That would be a silly thing to do, since skeptics like you would likely use that as an argument that it did NOT fall from the sky. So, using logic reasoning, it was likely NOT staged.
---

Besides these two main issues, you bring up many details where you attempt to discredit the theory that Bellingcat concluded as being most likely.

But where you fall short is in explaining what the alternative theory is that you have in mind.

You started that with "a truck load of recently dead bodies was transported to the building and dispersed among the scene there.", but you did not get much further than that.

For example, could you answer the 22 questions that are raised the moment you go for a 'staged' or 'false flag' scenario like that ? :
https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/2018/05/09/a-douma-chemical-attack-false-flag-scenario-does-not-make-sense-at-all-here-is-why/

Or if you want to go step by step, here is my first question :
In video 2, taken very soon after the attack, you see the cylinder head sticking through the ceiling, and it is frosted white (which would be expected after gas was released from the cylinder). In the video from the day after, the frosting has disappeared.
In your theory, how do you explain that frosting ?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:03:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #259 on: May 14, 2018, 05:15:54 PM »
Too many of the good people here (and perhaps at least one is a troll?) are spending hours every day working yourselves and each other into a frenzy of blame on incomplete information.

Setting aside that much of this is wrong and some of it is possible harmful, what is the use? I cannot believe you don't all have the same sick feeling I have when I try to begin to respond to the wide range of blame addiction going around.

Really, Clinton is to blame for Noam Chomsky not being covered in the news? One does not know where to begin with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky He's 89.

I share Bernie's ideals (mostly) but some of his blame-assigning tactics are execrable, and some of you have fallen for them hook line and sinker. Ignore the real villains and go after people trying to make some progress who need help and allies, not circular firing squads.

You shut out MSNBC, The New York Times, The Guardian, the Washington Post, but take RT as reliable? This is indeed propaganda, and ill-informed at that. I used to appreciate RT's climate coverage, but I doubt their politics is not as advertised in its name: Russia Today. Anyone who thinks Putin isn't up to all kinds of harm isn't paying attention. Anyone who thinks Trump and the modern Republican power party are not the main source of harm since at least Reagan is ignoring the monstrous wounds of real evil while picking at scabs.

For the best news going, I do recommend The New Yorker

I've been trying to stay away, and will continue to do so. But since I'm here ...

The way you are all working each other up into a frenzy on incomplete information focused on a few proudly biased internet resources is at the very least a terrible waste of good energy and time.

[note: I am adding one more person to my "ignore" list to avoid being disgusted quite so often when I come here. Also, there are not enough hours in the day to be forever hovering over this argument, no matter how much it looks just like climate denial. If you can do something, do it. But please don't feed on your hatreds, it's not healthy.]
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 05:24:29 PM by Susan Anderson »

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #260 on: May 15, 2018, 06:13:04 AM »
Is this your way of KIS (Keep It Simple) ?

You refused multiple requests that were reasonable and polite to cooperate. You refused to KISSMIF. 

That's not true. You suggested :
Quote
"To make it easier and less time consuming for both of us, how about instead you chose only one piece of evidence that you accept as a highly compelling part of the bellingcat narrative? "
and I complied, suggesting that you follow the scientific method and start with the first video in the first link, and answer some questions that raises IF your theory that no gas attack happened is correct :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg153838.html#msg153838

So far, in your many lengthy posts after that, you answered only the second question to the first video in the first link (you answered : "a truck load of recently dead bodies was transported to the building"). The rest of your many lengthy posts are just ramblings without substance not following the scientific method.

So much for KISSMIF.

Quote
For your information as an encouragement to think carefully first. I have worked with both scuba tanks and commercial gas cylinders as large as the ones in the videos and a little larger. I know all about "frosting" from a rapid and from a slow steady discharge of the contents. I know how fast that frosting appears and how fast that frosting evaporates depending on the gas contents, the surrounding air, temps and humidity.

Well, if you know so much about frosting on cylinders, I'm sure you can explain how that frosting got there (video 2) if there was no gas discharge as you allege.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #261 on: May 15, 2018, 07:04:07 AM »
You shut out MSNBC, The New York Times, The Guardian, the Washington Post, but take RT as reliable? This is indeed propaganda, and ill-informed at that. I used to appreciate RT's climate coverage, but I doubt their politics is not as advertised in its name: Russia Today. Anyone who thinks Putin isn't up to all kinds of harm isn't paying attention. Anyone who thinks Trump and the modern Republican power party are not the main source of harm since at least Reagan is ignoring the monstrous wounds of real evil while picking at scabs.

For the best news going, I do recommend The New Yorker

I agree, Susan.

The attacks against mainstream media on this forum is bizarre, and more in line with what Trump would advertise. Also, I don't like it at all that all mainstream media seem to be judged by the same sword : All western media networks are designated as "corporate media" on this forum, including crowd sourced NPR apparently and government funded BBC to give a few particularly non-corporate networks.

For some reason that eludes me, RT is considered not corporate, and even "anti-war" even though RT is funded by the Russian government, which in itself serves the interests of Russian industry, and RT's non-stop support of Russia's war effort in Ukraine and Syria, designating their aggression as "self-defense" and "peace making" respectively in a clear display of Russian propaganda.

Meanwhile the truth is that the Russians are bombing civilian targets in Ukraine and bombing hospitals and mosques in Syria.

Also, the ad hominem attacks on this forum against the one form of journalism (open source journalism) that has been best in exposing the hypocrisy of Russia's wars is despicable.
 
Here is a great article from the New Yorker, which highlights how open source journalism can really make a difference in fact-based reasoning, if it is done right. It highlights how Eliot Higgins and his blog (Brown Moses at the time, Bellingcat now) just keeps on getting things right, and expose the truth publicly verifiable evidence :

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/11/25/rocket-man-2

Nobody has been able to debunk ANY of the articles they have published so far. Which is amazing, if you consider the importance of the conclusions that they have been drawing regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria, exposing the lies by the Russian Ministry of Defense, to the identification of the Russian BUK that shot down MH17, and much, much more. And yes, also showing that US bombs were used against a Yemen wedding party.

By exposing the truth using publicly available evidence, Bellingcat, and open-source journalism in general, is a HUGE threat to propaganda efforts from RT and the 'alternative media' that parrot that propaganda (propornot.com has a list).

I guess that's why Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat at despised on this forum.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:20:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #262 on: May 15, 2018, 11:53:43 AM »
ASILurker

Very impressed by the Obama Era video of Joshua Landis.


Has he said more recently?

Historically, France and Britain seem to have set the scene for the continuing disasters.

Did they realise what they were doing?

Were there particular individuals responsible? - or is that a stupid question?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #263 on: May 16, 2018, 02:17:19 AM »
ASILurker

Thanks.

I think I see these terrible events in a better perspective now.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #264 on: May 16, 2018, 03:59:35 PM »
 tl;dnr - except:
9) Noting here that white foam like that is NOT a symptom of chlorine gas poisoning.
Nope:
Quoth http://www.vlib.us/medical/gaswar/chlorine.htm
Quote
The first effect produced by the irritant action of the gas is a profuse exudation of a thin, light yellow, albuminous fluid by the bronchial mucous membrane, as well as a very active secretion by the lachrymal and salivary glands; these are the results of protective reflexes, the object of which is to dilute the irritant poison and render it innocuous. At the same time spasm of the bronchial muscles occurs in an attempt to obstruct the passage of the gas into the alveoli. In severe cases the bronchial secretion and spasm not only fail to protect the alveoli, but obstruct the entry of air into the lungs, to such an extent that the patient becomes asphyxiated and may die before the fluid is expectorated and the spasm relaxes.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #265 on: May 17, 2018, 06:46:41 AM »
ASILurker, you talk too much and you say too little.
If you want to do this scientifically, you should first set up your own theory, and answer the questions that come with that. Below, I cut out all the ad hominems and irrelevant deliberations that have nothing to do with your theory. Here is what's left over :

...
In your theory, how do you explain that frosting ?

AND " if there was no gas discharge as you allege."

"if there was no gas discharge as you allege."

I never alleged that.

Well, you did, when you stated :
...That there was no bronze alloy tap fitting or regulator on this tank....

No tap, no pressure, no discharge.

Quote
So what are the possibilities if this scene was staged? How did the frosting appear on the tank when the video was taken?

1) The cylinder was planted on the patio before the 7th of april or on the night.
2) The cylinder was partly full with gas, and not necessarily chlorine.
3) There was a 'headchopper' on the patio when the video was taken.
4) Using a spanner he removed the tap/regulator, called down to the guys below and said "Hey ok, start videoing, the tank has frosting on it it now! Quick! Hurry up! Allahu Akbar my brothers!"
5) OR the tap was opened first until it was empty and then he used a spanner to remove the tap without the pressure in the tank.
6) The dead bodies were already dead for a day or several days before the 7th april.
7) They planted the bodies at the scene (not in the basement) as shown in the video.
8) Several minutes before the video was taken someone went around and sprayed white foam into the noses and mouths of some of the bodies. 

OK. This theory raises more questions than it answers.
For example, just a few that come to mind :

- Where did they get the cylinder from, and how did it get damaged ? Did the rebels toss it from high altitude first ? Or did they use a cylinder from one of Assad's previous chlorine attacks on his own people ?
- Which 'gas' did they fill this damaged cylinder with, and if it was chlorine, how and where did they produce the chlorine ? If no chlorine, which gas was it that they filled the cylinder with ?
- Who exactly are these dead people, and how exactly did they die ?

Such essential basic questions are easily answered with the default theory that Bellingcat concludes based on the evidence available.

However, they remain utterly unanswered in your 'staging' theory, which means at this point your theory is still in 'conspiracy' territory.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #266 on: May 17, 2018, 08:13:18 AM »
On February 4 2018 there was a chemical attack on Saraqib, Idlib.
Bellingcat reported on this on Feb 14 :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/02/14/evidence-february-4th-2018-chlorine-attack-saraqib-idlib/

In many ways this attack was similar to the Douma attack.
Same style cylinders used, same style 'harness' documented, cylinders dropped from altitude, and symptoms in victims mostly consistent with chlorine inhalation.

The main difference is that in Saraqib, only 11 people were treated with symptoms, while in Douma many fatalities were recorded. This is most likely caused by the location where the cylinders impacted, which in the case of Saraqib was an open field, while in Douma the gas was dispersed in the confinement of a house.

Now OPCW reported their findings of this attack :
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-likely-use-of-chlorine-in-saraqib-syria/

They found mostly chlorine, but also something else :
Quote
The FFM also noted the presence of chemicals that can neither be explained as occurring naturally in the environment nor as being related to chlorine. Furthermore, some of the medical signs and symptoms reported were different to those that would be expected from exposure to pure chlorine. There was insufficient information and evidence to enable the FFM to draw any further conclusions on these chemicals at this stage.

Specifically, they found some suspicious chemicals that were also detected for attacks where sarin was used. Bellingcat reports :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/16/opcw-ffm-report-saraqib-chlorine-attack-tells-us-douma-chemical-attack/

Quote
Samples tested by the OPCW-FFM include Diisopropyl methylphosphonate (DIMP), Isopropyl methylphosphonate (IPMPA aka IMPA), and Methylphosphonic acid (MPA), which are not byproducts of chlorine gas, but have been detected in all Sarin attacks in Syria where chemical analysis was performed by the OPCW, including the August 21st 2013 Damascus attacks, the March 30th 2017 Al Lataminah attack, and the April 4th 2017 Khan Sheikhoun attack.

The OPCW report for Douma is still weeks away, but if the same chemicals are found in Douma as were found in Saraqib, then we may have to consider that the Syrian military found a way to mix an organophosphate into a chlorine gas cylinder...

It would also explain some symptoms in Douma patients that some claim cannot be caused by chlorine alone.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 08:31:29 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #267 on: May 17, 2018, 12:23:36 PM »
tl;dnr - except:
9) Noting here that white foam like that is NOT a symptom of chlorine gas poisoning.
Nope:
Quoth http://www.vlib.us/medical/gaswar/chlorine.htm
Quote
The first effect produced by the irritant action of the gas is a profuse exudation of a thin, light yellow, albuminous fluid by the bronchial mucous membrane, as well as a very active secretion by the lachrymal and salivary glands; these are the results of protective reflexes, the object of which is to dilute the irritant poison and render it innocuous. At the same time spasm of the bronchial muscles occurs in an attempt to obstruct the passage of the gas into the alveoli. In severe cases the bronchial secretion and spasm not only fail to protect the alveoli, but obstruct the entry of air into the lungs, to such an extent that the patient becomes asphyxiated and may die before the fluid is expectorated and the spasm relaxes.

Hi Martin, thanks for the extra info and questioning what was presented.

In this case it fails on a couple of points. First it contradicts the claims made several times on the Bellingcat website (url given above) of what kind of 'chemical agent' was present. Have another look.
I simply peplied to your point 9).

It's been a time that I looked at the videos, and I won't look a second time. There wasn't much foam, just a little, very consistent with the chlorine symptoms I quoted. Why do you doubt my quote?

Quote
that foam substance is not a result of chlorine poisoning
As my quote says: "very active secretion by the [...] salivary glands"

Quote
I am sorry but what you think that ref is saying does no actually refer to what I have said and why I have said.
It does.

Quote
That quote does not actually refer to the images shown in the video in question. Two different things entirely.
It is about high doseage chlorine gas poisoning. Chlorine is chlorine at any location in the universe.

Quote
I am fairly certain I have done a good job of ripping this Example of Bad Journalism to shreds.  :)
I am not. And please keep yourself shorter. Your longish rambling texts are beyond my patience.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:36:12 PM by Martin Gisser »

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #268 on: May 17, 2018, 11:14:22 PM »
A problem we're also seeing in the ASIF microcosmos:

Quote
Dems Give Up on Trying to Get Cable News to Care About Anything but Russia

The party wants to talk health care. They really do. But they can’t get cable bookers or programmers to care.

Throughout the spring and early summer of 2017, congressional Democrats put together a comprehensive legislative and messaging plan to serve as the party’s foundation for the 2018 midterm elections.

It centered around running against the concentration of economic power—chiefly within the pharmaceutical industry—and an ambitious, multi-faceted approach to enhancing conditions for workers both within and outside the workplace.

The title was a bit cookie-cutter—”A Better Deal”—but the document was the result of numerous stakeholder meetings, strategy sessions, and late-night conferring.

Naturally, the party wanted to have a flashy debut. So lawmakers went to Berryville, Virginia—a town in a district that Democrats had lost in the 2016 elections but were poised to flip in the upcoming cycle—to formally announce the plan. When they came back to D.C, they conducted additional press briefings in hopes of flooding the news cycle.

And then Jared Kushner stepped out of the West Wing to a horde of cameras, to proclaim his innocence in the still nascent probe into Russian election meddling. “Let me be very clear,” Kushner said. “I did not collude with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else on the campaign who did so.”

In an instant, the public relations push was upended. Much of the media still covered “A Better Deal.” But cable news largely ignored it, choosing instead to chase the shiny new object presented before them by the president’s son-in-law.

“In print and other places [coverage] was great. It was online. The Times did two big stories on it. The Post had a huge picture and story. And it was everywhere else online,” said one senior Democratic Senate aide involved in the PR push. “But cable news focused on Kushner.”

Very bad journalism, exactly as TPTB want it to be.

Read the rest here.
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #269 on: May 17, 2018, 11:54:34 PM »
Some weeks ago Taibbi wrote of the incestuous relationship between power and press:

" "You guys are obsessed with Trump," Wolf went on, smiling. "Did you use to date him? You pretend like you hate him, but I think you love him." "

"You created this monster, and now you're profiting off of him."

"a significant portion of the national press corps genuinely gets off on the experience of being close to power"

"This is why so many journalists circle the wagons when someone dares to interrupt their public love sessions with the people who misuse our tax money, bomb innocent civilians, lie to us ... "

"Is being on the outside so bad? "

Hersh does it from the outside. Pilger does it. Fisk does it. But the vast majority fellate power.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/taibi-michelle-wolf-slays-useless-white-house-correspondents-dinner-w519682

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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #270 on: May 17, 2018, 11:59:30 PM »
A Better Deal!
Visions of government health care, higher wages, workers rights, but I never heard of it, and I doubt that many of the voters have either.


Most Dems here prefer breathless posts about Stormy's lawyers latest revelation, or how after a year of investigations the Mighty Mueller is (finally) going to get his man.


Great circus, but in the end the train runs over the elephant & the high wire artist crashes to earth.
Terry

litesong

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #271 on: May 18, 2018, 01:12:21 AM »
Go placidly amid the noise and haste... and remember what peace there may be in silence.
Authoritarians, Kings, & dictators always tell the people they suppress to have such attitudes. Remember: Speaking up leads to health problems.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #272 on: May 18, 2018, 05:16:52 AM »
A problem we're also seeing in the ASIF microcosmos:

Quote
Dems Give Up on Trying to Get Cable News to Care About Anything but Russia

The party wants to talk health care. They really do. But they can’t get cable bookers or programmers to care.
...

Very bad journalism, exactly as TPTB want it to be.

I think this article may be a bit dated.
Russia focus seems to be waring out here in the US.

Lately I've noticed that for MSM foreign news, Iran, North Korea and Israel are definitely beating Russia.

Maybe Russia should do something shocking again.

Unrelated, I have a hunch that MH370 will be found in the next week or two. If so, I have a story to tell.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #273 on: May 18, 2018, 03:20:45 PM »
A Better Deal!
Visions of government health care, higher wages, workers rights, but I never heard of it, and I doubt that many of the voters have either.

I've cited the "Better Deal" repeatedly in other threads, often in response to moans about "the Democratic Party doesn't stand for anything."

People confuse what's in the press about political matters as a reflection of what is happening politically.  There's a massive set of differences.  There's a huge amount of crappy journalism about.  Reality is often not reflected well in it. 

And no, the crappiness of journalism is not a CIA-engineering thing (though they have and probably do have some selective influence).  It's a consequence of free-market capitalism on the press.  Any half-wit can create "news" now.  Advertising revenue is diluted, even for the major press.  All budgets to support journalism are drastically falling.  Without the dedicated labor needed, and with requirements for volumes of attention-grabbing headlines, quality across the journalistic spectrum falls into the toilet.

I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #274 on: May 18, 2018, 06:45:40 PM »
MSM Misinformation: Comparing the Wikipedia Page of the White Helmet Terrorists with the Actual Images From Their Own Facebook Accounts

https://clarityofsignal.com/2018/05/17/msm-misinformation-comparing-the-wikipedia-page-of-the-white-helmet-terrorists-with-the-actual-images-from-their-own-facebook-accounts/

There is a lot of information and images on this page clearly connecting white helmets with terrorists such as Al Nusra.

This is not being reflected on the white helmets wiki page.

Alas, the Wikipedia controversy related to the White Helmets grows even larger due to this manipulation against those that dare to expose the White Helmets as terrorists, and particularly so now that Jimmy Wales the founder of Wikipedia has chimed in and done nothing to stop the lies and smears.


Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #275 on: May 19, 2018, 05:44:12 AM »
MSM Misinformation: Comparing the Wikipedia Page of the White Helmet Terrorists with the Actual Images From Their Own Facebook Accounts

https://clarityofsignal.com/2018/05/17/msm-misinformation-comparing-the-wikipedia-page-of-the-white-helmet-terrorists-with-the-actual-images-from-their-own-facebook-accounts/

There is a lot of information and images on this page clearly connecting white helmets with terrorists such as Al Nusra.

There is a lot of smearing against the White Helmets going on there, but nothing concrete.
This "blame the White Helmets" appears to be very popular amongst Assad-lovers, but has no basis in fact. Here is a fact-check by snopes :
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/syrian-rescue-organization-the-white-helmets-are-terrorists/

Quote
This is not being reflected on the white helmets wiki page.

Because it is baseless smearing a first-responders organization that has saved over 100,000 lives in Syria. Smearing performed by some pro-Assad lovers that can't get their facts straight, and have to rely on lies and fake news to make their point against the White Helmets :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/13/doumafakenews/

Quote
Alas, the Wikipedia controversy related to the White Helmets grows even larger due to this manipulation against those that dare to expose the White Helmets as terrorists, and particularly so now that Jimmy Wales the founder of Wikipedia has chimed in and done nothing to stop the lies and smears.

Ohohoh. Now you are objecting to the smearers being smeared ?

I'm glad Jimmy Wales has his ducks in a row, and as he said about the complaints about the White Helmets : "those complaints are so wrong" and "show me some diffs" of where you think the edits where not according to standard wiki rules.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 05:56:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #276 on: May 19, 2018, 06:48:09 PM »
So it was Halper. There's no such thing as an ex-spook. This boy has been slimy since 1980.

"a long-time CIA operative with extensive links to the Bush family who was responsible for a dirty and likely illegal spying operation in the 1980 presidential election."

Apparently was setting up Page and Papadoupolos before the investigation began ...

"The professor’s interactions with Trump advisers began a few weeks before the opening of the investigation ... "

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/19/the-fbi-informant-who-monitored-the-trump-campaign-stefan-halper-oversaw-a-cia-spying-operation-in-the-1980-presidential-election/

sidd


Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #277 on: May 19, 2018, 09:53:17 PM »
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #278 on: May 19, 2018, 10:21:17 PM »
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.

Except the problematic dynamics I've cited don't only affect "mainstream news."  The impoverishment of journalists impairs the quality of alternative news as well.  It all increasingly sucks.  And shading our eyes from poor quality doesn't alter the perverse economics, either.

Really, if one boycotts anything, it should be the major advertisers of the bilge.  Boycott, and tell them and social media about the action and why.


Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #279 on: May 19, 2018, 11:38:15 PM »
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.
Watch RT and Jimmy Dore instead? Vote Trump?

But yes, demand. But first, pop the bubble and check the facts. Take to the streets (like the Parkland kids) and judge the media for their reporting from the streets.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 05:02:38 PM by Martin Gisser »

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #280 on: May 19, 2018, 11:38:34 PM »
There are a multitude of problems with journalism as it exists today.
Some may respond to legislation and regulation - returning to the "Equal time rule" might be an example. Legislation to tighten slander and liable accountability, much as the Brits have might be a step in the right direction. Defamation should be punished.


The other problem that needs to be addressed is remuneration. Foreign Bureaus have been phased out and replaced by flying in a reporter should something important break. Clearly not a substitute for teams that have been on the ground, who know the locals, the players and who have studied the circumstances for decades.
This is cheap, but is it journalism?


I recognize the problems, but offer no solutions.
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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #281 on: May 20, 2018, 02:53:19 AM »
So it was Halper. There's no such thing as an ex-spook. This boy has been slimy since 1980.

"a long-time CIA operative with extensive links to the Bush family who was responsible for a dirty and likely illegal spying operation in the 1980 presidential election."

Apparently was setting up Page and Papadoupolos before the investigation began ...

"The professor’s interactions with Trump advisers began a few weeks before the opening of the investigation ... "

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/19/the-fbi-informant-who-monitored-the-trump-campaign-stefan-halper-oversaw-a-cia-spying-operation-in-the-1980-presidential-election/

sidd
Thanks sidd!


Glenn wrapped up Halpern and delivered him tied with a bow.
Ties to Nixon, Reagan, Bush Senior, Cheney and all those wonderful All American stooges that made up their followers. - even prior experience in manipulating presidential elections!
I've been trying to link Stepan with Pablo, Christopher, & Sergei over in Salisbury with no luck to date. Amazing that his identity should have been held so close to the vest by the players. Why?


From the comments section I learned that none other than our own Gina Haspel was running the CIA's London office in 2016.
What tangled webs are woven when the spiders insist on working in darkest secrecy.
Terry

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #282 on: May 20, 2018, 01:19:36 PM »
Watch RT and Jimmy Dore instead? Vote Trump?

DemocracyNow! and The Real News Network are two sources I would recommend. Jimmy Dore gets it, like many comedians do (because they are used to taking different perspectives to find humour), but I know he is offputting to some. Some of RT is definitely watchable, but I wouldn't watch it all day. I don't see much of a problem with the stuff people like Chris Hedges, Thom Hartmann, Abby Martin and Jesse Ventura are producing. I don't believe any of these sources would knowingly deceive their viewers, and they all speak to power.

And vote Green Party, never vote for the lesser evil. In the long run the greater evil will cause more resistance and opportunities for meaningful change. The lesser evil just causes the wound to continue to fester, and people are too stupid to see through that.
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Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #283 on: May 20, 2018, 02:58:29 PM »
Craig Murray on how certain Wikipedia articles are constantly and systematically manipulated by MSM-related powers, channeled through an industrially active alias called Philip Cross, and how the founder of wikipedia protects  these activities:

"...the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation is systematically to attack and undermine the reputations of those who are prominent in challenging the dominant corporate and state media narrative. particularly in foreign affairs. “Philip Cross” also systematically seeks to burnish the reputations of mainstream media journalists and other figures who are particularly prominent in pushing neo-con propaganda and in promoting the interests of Israel.  ...the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation is to make certain that if that reader looks up an anti-war person such as John Pilger, they will conclude they are thoroughly unreliable and untrustworthy, whereas if they look up a right wing MSM journalist, they will conclude they are a paragon of virtue and entirely to be trusted.
...no doubt that Kamm, leader wirter of Murdoch’s Times, is close the the “Philip Cross” operation. Many people believe that Kamm and Cross are the same person, or that Kamm is part of a multiple persona.
...
What is particularly interesting is that “Philip Cross”‘s views happen to be precisely the same political views as those of Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia. Jimmy Wales has been on twitter the last three days being actively rude and unpleasant to anybody questioning the activities of Philip Cross.
...
My view is that Philip Cross probably is a real person, but that he fronts for a group acting under his name. It is undeniably true, in fact the government has boasted, that both the MOD and GCHQ have “cyber-war” ops aiming to defend the “official” narrative against alternative news media, and that is precisely the purpose of the “Philip Cross” operation on Wikipedia."

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/05/the-philip-cross-affair/
https://wikipedia.fivefilters.org/

Buddy

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #284 on: May 20, 2018, 03:34:34 PM »
Good journalism is like a good CPA.  They LOOK FOR FACTS from MULTIPLE INDEPENDENT SOURCES.

And they also look at the HISTORY of those sources being accurate or not.  That is why FOX has been such a FARCE over the years.  They DONT look for facts; they don’t use corraborating sources; they don’t use sources with a history of being correct.

When a company hands their financial statements to a CPA firm to produce an audit ... the CPA firm then looks to INDEPENDENT SOURCES to either corraborate or negate the information in the financials.  In other words, a good CPA is SKEPTICAL of EVERYONE, and is continually on a hunt for THE TRUTH .... just as a good journalist is.

If Rudi Giuliani now says “the President can’t be subpoenaed” ... good journalists have dug into what Rudi has said in the past (which just so happens to be the OPPOSITE) of what he is saying now.

Journalism is a hunt for the truth .... plain and simple.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 04:24:16 PM by Buddy »
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #285 on: May 20, 2018, 05:29:25 PM »
A Simple Litmus Test

In the "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation" thread an avid commenter seriously cited the Daily Caller... So this is one of the alternatives to evil "Mainstream Media"?  :'(

For the scientifically literate, there is a simple litmus test if a source might be something to take seriously:
Check the f-ing climate reporting!
The "Daily Howler", as it is known in climate science circles fails it spectacularly. I find it quite concerning that someone frequenting this very forum dares quoting this anti-science propaganda rag.

Quoth https://www.desmogblog.com/michael-bastasch
Quote
[...] The Daily Caller News Foundation (the nonprofit arm of the Daily Caller) has received at least $825,814 in combined funding from Koch-controlled foundations. As reported at Daily KOS, the Daily Caller was one of the main beneficiaries of climate change denial funding through Koch foundations, and “also seems to be the final destination of sorts for the conservative media pipeline.”

The Daily Howler plays an important role in the conservative climate denial bubble:

Quoth https://climatefeedback.org/false-claim-global-warming-natural-propagates-climate-misinformation-echo-chamber/
Quote
[...]

False claim propagation in the climate misinformation echo chamber

Given that the paper’s claims and methods do not stand up to scientists’ scrutiny, how did the media react to it? We have compiled a list of the most influential blog posts and news outlet coverage. With the exception of the article in The Guardian, where scientists detailed the study’s flaws, none of the publications listed below interviewed any scientists with expertise on the subject to hear their assessment of the quality of the new publication—standard practice among professional science journalists.

The diagram below shows that the articles mostly rely heavily on each other—like in an echo chamber—with very few outside sources included in the reporting. A first wave of “reporting” appeared in The Spectator, The Daily Caller, The Daily Wire, and Breitbart, which were then largely copied and pasted in a second wave of posts with larger audiences, including Young Conservatives and Milo Yiannopoulos’ blog.
[...]
(my bold italics)


Figure – The network of outlets, blogs, and social media profiles who have shared and endorsed the claim of the GeoResJ paper. Dot sizes are proportional to the total number of shares and interactions on social media; arrows represent citations from an article to its source.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 06:17:07 PM by Martin Gisser »

SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #286 on: May 20, 2018, 06:10:03 PM »
A Simple Litmus Test

In the "Mueller Investigation & Cohen Investigation" thread an avid commenter seriously cited the Daily Caller... So this is one of the alternatives to evil "Mainstream Media"?  :'(

There is a simple litmus test if a source might be something to take seriously:
Check the f-ing climate reporting!
The "Daily Howler", as it is known in climate science circles fails it spectacularly. I find it quite concerning that someone frequenting this very forum dares quoting this anti-science propaganda rag.

Quoth https://www.desmogblog.com/michael-bastasch
Quote
[...] The Daily Caller News Foundation (the nonprofit arm of the Daily Caller) has received at least $825,814 in combined funding from Koch-controlled foundations. As reported at Daily KOS, the Daily Caller was one of the main beneficiaries of climate change denial funding through Koch foundations, and “also seems to be the final destination of sorts for the conservative media pipeline.”

The Daily Howler plays an important role in the conservative climate denial bubble:

Quoth https://climatefeedback.org/false-claim-global-warming-natural-propagates-climate-misinformation-echo-chamber/
Quote
[...]

False claim propagation in the climate misinformation echo chamber

Given that the paper’s claims and methods do not stand up to scientists’ scrutiny, how did the media react to it? We have compiled a list of the most influential blog posts and news outlet coverage. With the exception of the article in The Guardian, where scientists detailed the study’s flaws, none of the publications listed below interviewed any scientists with expertise on the subject to hear their assessment of the quality of the new publication—standard practice among professional science journalists.

The diagram below shows that the articles mostly rely heavily on each other—like in an echo chamber—with very few outside sources included in the reporting. A first wave of “reporting” appeared in The Spectator, The Daily Caller, The Daily Wire, and Breitbart, which were then largely copied and pasted in a second wave of posts with larger audiences, including Young Conservatives and Milo Yiannopoulos’ blog.
[...]
(my bold italics)

Figure – The network of outlets, blogs, and social media profiles who have shared and endorsed the claim of the GeoResJ paper. Dot sizes are proportional to the total number of shares and interactions on social media; arrows represent citations from an article to its source.

Quite right, the cited example here is, indeed, a methodologically stupid approach.  One wonders how it got through peer review.  From the abstract:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214242817300426?via%3Dihub
"By optimizing spectral features of the component sine waves, such as periodicity, amplitude and phase, the original temperature profiles were approximately simulated for the late Holocene period to 1830 CE. The ANN models were then used to generate projections of temperatures through the 20th century. "

Even if they hadn't screwed up their data sets, one underlying stupid assumption is that there was zero human-induced warming prior to 1830.  The other, already cited, is the idea that natural temperature trends can reasonably be accounted for by sine waves, without any need to examine any underlying physics. 

Clearly, any information source that uncritically parrots this kind of "research" cannot be trusted.

magnamentis

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #287 on: May 20, 2018, 08:01:57 PM »
Good journalism is like a good CPA.  They LOOK FOR FACTS from MULTIPLE INDEPENDENT SOURCES.

And they also look at the HISTORY of those sources being accurate or not.  That is why FOX has been such a FARCE over the years.  They DONT look for facts; they don’t use corraborating sources; they don’t use sources with a history of being correct.

When a company hands their financial statements to a CPA firm to produce an audit ... the CPA firm then looks to INDEPENDENT SOURCES to either corraborate or negate the information in the financials.  In other words, a good CPA is SKEPTICAL of EVERYONE, and is continually on a hunt for THE TRUTH .... just as a good journalist is.

If Rudi Giuliani now says “the President can’t be subpoenaed” ... good journalists have dug into what Rudi has said in the past (which just so happens to be the OPPOSITE) of what he is saying now.

Journalism is a hunt for the truth .... plain and simple.

i agree with you, just want to mention that if one sees things this way and tries to point out his quote he/she will be branded as bragging and discredited.

last but not least, yes, history helps, but we all are permanently learning and having done mistakes in the past does not mean that what we do/say today is again wrong. the opposite is more the case IMO, those who REALLY know more than others often made MORE mistakes because they at least did something instead of only sitting in front of a TV or sitting at their "regular table", moaning and throwing around a bunch of "half truth" and "hear say" rubbish.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #288 on: May 20, 2018, 09:10:26 PM »
Yes, you have to keep in mind that Daily Caller is heavily biased and has a poor track record in certain areas, but it doesn't hurt to read one article someone is linking to and see if there is something there. To say 'Daily Caller is awful AGW, hence everything they say is untrue' will get you in trouble eventually.

For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case. Should I now discard their excellent Environment articles? The Washington Post is owned by Emperor Bezos. Should I stop reading Chris Mooney's stuff?

The problem with mainstream media isn't that everything coming out of it, is necessarily bad or biased. The problem is that its journalists can speak to power only so far, unless they're willing to put their job on the line. And so people who are interested in the root cause of today's global problems, will naturally turn to alternative media, even if there's an ongoing campaign of labeling everything alternative to establishment narratives as 'conspiracy theory'.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #289 on: May 20, 2018, 09:54:33 PM »
For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case.
I'd like to see that.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #290 on: May 20, 2018, 10:19:45 PM »
Just to show that it's silly to dismiss a news source in its entirety based on one aspect or 'litmus test', here's some of the really great stuff that Jimmy Dore is doing to spread awareness and offer a platform for progressive politicians to reach out to voters. Now, if I were living in California, I'd be investing as much free time as I have to help support this fantastic lady:

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sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #291 on: May 20, 2018, 10:26:06 PM »
The daily caller is undoubtedly a rag, but even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. In this case they broke the Halper story in april. Nobody else would cover it. Reminds be of the Awan case where nobody was following the story except Luke Rosiak at the daily caller. Only when it blew up did the major media begin covering it, and even then not in detail.

sidd


TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #292 on: May 20, 2018, 10:40:11 PM »
If you ignore every source that doesn't report to your liking on every issue, you'll end up talking to yourself with no outside input.


I have huge problems with Fox News - however they sometimes present first person film clips of people saying things that we should be paying close attention to. The McClain testimony re. arming ISIS is a recent example.
I don't know what Fox's spin on it was, nor do I care. I did watch McCain's lips move, and heard what he said. That I found important.


Should we ignore evidence just because it came from a suspect source?
Terry

Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #293 on: May 20, 2018, 11:45:15 PM »
The daily caller is undoubtedly a rag, but even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then. In this case they broke the Halper story in april. Nobody else would cover it.
Maybe because the Daily Caller was informed by Page or Papadop or Nunes. The whole story I find unsurprising. Me dunno what all the fuss is about (except the Trump baby is now crying about it), so I just glanced over it. It is known since long that Page and Papadop were under surveillance, and the Halper thing exactly fits the picture.

So, you look for acorns at a tree that is consistently producing poisoned science acorns? Their climate "journalism" isn't just an occasional bad job (which can happen at any outlet from time to time) - it is consistent intentional service to The Powers you always complain about when bashing the mainstream media. Or maybe you like the Koch brothers?

An outlet with such standards of truth can not be taken serious, what ever stuff they tell.
I thought that would be common sense.

---------------
P.S./Edit:

If you ignore every source that doesn't report to your liking on every issue
Here exactly is the problem: Confirmation bias.

Fuck my effing likings! E.g. I don't like the results of climate science. But, being scientifically literate, I have to take the stuff seriously. And I have to dislike those who lie about it - even if I would love those damned lies to be true in a different universe.

Maybe I'm a psychopath, but I like reporting that is trustworthy, what ever the news is.

------------------
P.P.S.: Now offline for some days of gardening, breaking new ground. Fuck the internets.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 12:02:46 AM by Martin Gisser »

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #294 on: May 21, 2018, 07:14:09 AM »
I see no straightforward solutions to this democracy-killing trend.

Yes, there is. Stop watching mainstream news. Stop protecting it, promoting it and linking to it online. Stop voting for the lesser evil. Make a demand.

Neven, with all due respect, but exactly which networks do you consider "mainstream news". Can you make a list ? And why we should avoid them ? Also, how about "mainstream" newspapers ? Can you make a list there too ? And maybe give some examples of why we should avoid them ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #295 on: May 21, 2018, 07:38:23 AM »
For instance, The Guardian was offering some really bad journalism on the Skirpal case.

Can you provide a link ? And explain why that was "really bad journalism" ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #296 on: May 21, 2018, 08:10:13 AM »
Just to show that it's silly to dismiss a news source in its entirety based on one aspect or 'litmus test', here's some of the really great stuff that Jimmy Dore is doing to spread awareness and offer a platform for progressive politicians to reach out to voters. Now, if I were living in California, I'd be investing as much free time as I have to help support this fantastic lady:

The Jimmy Dore show is not funny, not progressive, and heavily biased.

For example, Jimmy Dore is very upset about the 52 people killed in Gaza, and he should be.
But when Assad killed 50+ people in a chemical attack in Douma, Dore went as far as denying it even happened.

He only citing a journalist who interviewed a pro-Assad "doctor" who was not a witness to even the hospital scene, and who did not even visit the crime scene.

It does not do Gayle McLaughlin any good for appearing on his show.

If anything, I would NOT vote for her, exactly because she appeared on Dore's show.
Dore is a biased fraud, who most often shares conspiracy theories with right wingers like Alex Jones.
You need this guy like you need another hole in your body.
And I'm a progressive.

Seriously, Neven, why don't you dump Dore, and go for TYT's instead.
They are at least a lot more level headed than Dore.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2018, 09:04:44 AM »
Martin doesn't really think that Jimmy Dore does a comedy show does he?

No, it was Neven who said Jimmy Dore was a comedian : "Jimmy Dore gets it, like many comedians do ".

Dore is neither a comedian nor funny.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 09:46:25 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #298 on: May 21, 2018, 09:18:42 AM »
MSM reports BOTH sides, no matter how unbalanced.
However, with RT, you will only get one side.

Here is an example : the chemical attack on Saraqib, which we know was a chlorine attack by the Syrian air force, with according to OPCW, some suspicious extra chemicals that hint at sarin.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/16/opcw-ffm-report-saraqib-chlorine-attack-tells-us-douma-chemical-attack/

RT reports this :

https://www.rt.com/news/426953-opcw-chlorine-saraqeb-attack/

Note : " “OPCW says chlorine 'likely' used in Syria based on open-source info & samples provided by jihadists.” "

Who are the “jihadists” – as described by RT -- that provided the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons with samples for their investigation?

The RT article stated:

Quote
“In fact, the entire OPCW account is based on witness testimonies and material evidence provided by selected NGOs as well as medical records offered by the same questionable sources, including Belgium-based Same Justice/Chemical Violations Documentation Center of Syria (CVDCS), the notorious Syrian Civil Defense (SCD) – better known as White Helmets – and the US-based Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS).”

Ah. So not really "jihadists" but in fact OPCW itself as well as some NGOs :

Quote
In particular, the evidentiary value of samples taken close to the time of the allegation,
supported by photographic and video evidence and in association with witness
testimony, was balanced against the evidentiary value of the FFM visiting the site
some time later to collect its own samples.

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1626-2018_e_.pdf

Also, RT cites a Mr. Peter Ford, a former British ambassador to Syria, on why those sources are “questionable.”

Ford noted that the White Helmets are a ‘well-known jihadi auxiliary who have assisted in beheadings and who are notorious for making propaganda’, and that SAMS shares ‘a similar reputation’,” RT wrote.

RT did not provide evidence substantiating Ford’s assertion. However, the White Helmets have long been the target of a smear campaign promoted by the Russian and Syrian governments, as well as by conspiracy theorists in the West who typically use Russian sources like RT and Sputnik.

Also, the RT article did not mention that Peter Ford has been the director of a pro-Assad lobbying group since April 2017. That group, the British Syrian Society, was founded by Fawas Akhras, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s father-in-law.

So when you read RT, know that you are reading the pro-Assad, pro-Russian story. Only.
Which in this case turns out to be utter propaganda, without any evidence to back up its statements. In other words : lies.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:16:55 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #299 on: May 21, 2018, 03:45:29 PM »
Rob thinks that human beings are only capable of being critical of one narrative. If you don't believe in the western narrative, you must believe everything RT says. It's impossible to apply critical thought to more than one narrative.

He also believes open source journalism is to be the most trusted type of journalism. But only if it's bellingcat. Everything else posted on Twitter and Youtube that hasn't been vetted by elliot higins is not to be believed.  Apparently open source means, anything openly discussed by elliot higgins.