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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 59941 times)

Niall Dollard

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #300 on: May 21, 2018, 09:00:55 PM »

I'm glad Jimmy Wales has his ducks in a row, and as he said about the complaints about the White Helmets : "those complaints are so wrong" and "show me some diffs" of where you think the edits where not according to standard wiki rules.

Some info on Jimmy Wales from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) :

While Wikipedia strives for objectivity on Israel, Wales is unabashedly pro.

“I’m a strong supporter of Israel, so I don’t listen to those critics,” Wales told JTA.

Wales has been in Israel numerous times and has received the Dan David Prize, an international award of $1 million given yearly at Tel Aviv University. Wales was chosen for spearheading what the prize committee called the “information revolution.”

Only registered Wikipedia editors may edit the “Israel” entry. I wonder how many of those registered editors are Palestinian ?

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #301 on: May 21, 2018, 09:22:22 PM »
An insigthful interview with the editor of America's Finest News Source on coverage of the Trump presidency:

On the mainstream coverage:

"he’s [Trump] deliberately trying to troll people."

On the drive for traffic: "They [CNN] would put out articles and it would feel like this is the most click-bait article I’ve ever seen. "

"it does seem like people just freak out a lot."

"In a way, it almost feels like the resistance stuff is even more fun to make fun of."

"They are just so self-serious. There’s a lot of times when you disagree, and people say, "You’re a Russian. You’re bought off by the Russians." And it’s like, come on. For people who feel like this is a serious thing and there may be huge repercussions for all this Russia stuff, you’re doing a disservice to what you’re supposedly fighting for by just blindly attacking. "

On suppression of free speech:

"And it kind of lends credence to saying it’s a witch hunt. I’ve seen people literally do a witch hunt on powerless people and attack them. It’s kind of crazy that people are doing that or that they want to immediately take away someone’s First Amendment rights and say you can’t speak, like conservatives who want to speak on college campuses. It makes no sense to me. Let people speak. Don’t make them into martyrs who aren’t allowed to speak and then their message is amplified. They’re going to draw more people if they become proponents of the First Amendment, versus whatever message you disagreed with. It’s a very dangerous situation. "

"The other challenge about this administration is that so many of their policies and things, like for the EPA, they almost feel like satire."

"That’s the story of the 2016 election too. It didn’t come down to policy. It came down to personality quirks and small things — insignificant things that could potentially be a distraction from the real issues and what we should actually be concerned about."

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/20/donald-trump-onion-stories-597809

sidd

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #302 on: May 22, 2018, 12:26:37 AM »
Gonna need to dig a deeper memory hole: Caitlin Johnstone on disappearing news:

"Just don’t think too hard about it or remember too much."

"There are some turds that just won’t flush."

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/the-skripal-case-is-being-pushed-down-the-memory-hole-with-libya-and-aleppo-e4d8b93ef6f5

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #303 on: May 22, 2018, 03:41:08 AM »
Ofcom opens three new investigations into Kremlin backed RT over 'impartiality'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russia-today-rt-ofcom-investigations-programmes-syria-ukraine-salisbury-skripal-a8361556.html

The broadcasting watchdog has opened three new investigations into a Kremlin backed TV channel over “impartiality” on issues including the wars in Syria and Ukraine.

It brings the number of ongoing Ofcom probes into RT, formerly Russia Today, to 11. 

“Until recently, TV Novosti’s overall compliance record has not been materially out of line with other broadcasters,” an Ofcom spokesperson said at the time.

“However, since the events in Salisbury, we have observed a significant increase in the number of programmes on the RT service that warrant investigation as potential breaches of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code.”

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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #304 on: May 22, 2018, 05:42:20 AM »
Here's my question: Please name the USA Media Broadcasters who would meet the Ofcom Broadcasting Code standards.

It's easier to answer the question which media broadcasters would NOT meet the Ofcom broadcasting code. That would be your favorite Fox News :

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/06/fox-news-shows-broke-uk-tv-impartiality-rules-ofcom-finds

If RT keeps on going with their biased reporting without evidence, they will be next.

Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.
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TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #305 on: May 22, 2018, 06:20:08 AM »

Russia Today will not lose license over coverage of Salisbury attacks ofcom rules.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/12/russia-today-will-not-lose-licence-nerve-agent-attack-salisbury/

More attacks on freedom of the press follow, but RT will probably prevail - again.
Terry

Wonder how "Voice of America" would fare?
Terry

Tunnelforce9

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #306 on: May 23, 2018, 03:39:48 AM »
Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.

About that, read what this Bellingcat insider has to say...

...I must consider Bellingcat to be nothing more than trolls impersonating journalists. Bellingcat appears to be less legitimate than Fox News."

That is coming from the guy who has build Bellingcats fotoanalysis software..
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/729-All-Mouth,-No-Trousers.html


sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #307 on: May 23, 2018, 06:28:21 AM »
The comments have more links to what once can fake with manipulated images.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #308 on: May 23, 2018, 09:39:24 AM »
Bellingcat is fine. They sustain all their claims with evidence, and have never been proven wrong.

About that, read what this Bellingcat insider has to say...

...I must consider Bellingcat to be nothing more than trolls impersonating journalists. Bellingcat appears to be less legitimate than Fox News."

That is coming from the guy who has build Bellingcats fotoanalysis software..
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/729-All-Mouth,-No-Trousers.html

Thanks Tunnelforce. I remember this argument and this guy Krawetz.

Let me start by saying that he is not very clear as to exactly which Bellingcat report he is referring to and exactly which problem he has with their analysis and exactly which of their claims he is contesting and exactly on which grounds.

So hang in there, I'm going to try to deduce all of that, and then see what's left over of his argument :

He starts with "Last year, a group called 'Bellingcat' came out with a report about MH17... ". Yeah. Bellingcat came out with dozens of reports about MH17. Which one ?
He has a link in this statement : "However, as I pointed out in my blog entry, they used it wrong.". Follow the link and you get to this blog from June 8, 2015 :
https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/676-Continuing-Education.html

where he states "A few days ago, a group called "Bellingcat" published a report where they tried to do some digital photo forensics.". Still no link, but I think he refers to this Bellingcat post :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/31/mh17-forensic-analysis-of-satellite-images-released-by-the-russian-ministry-of-defence/
which refers to this detailed report :
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Forensic_analysis_of_satellite_images_EN.pdf

This is a report where Bellingcat analyzed the pictures that the Russian Ministry of Defense presented in their July 21, 2014 press conference.

His complaint seems to be the ELA analysis that Bellingcat ran on one picture (picture 4), the one with the clouds in there.

Quote
Using ELA, we cannot determine the authenticity of this picture: we cannot tell if it is real, and we cannot tell if it is fake. We can only conclude that this is a low quality picture and that the black text on white annotations were added last. If there was a higher quality version of this picture (without the annotations), then we would have a better chance at detecting any potential alterations.

It is curious why he concludes that, since his own tool FotoForensics clearly shows a difference in error levels between the C and D regions, as Bellingcat points out (on page 11) :

Quote
The difference in the error levels between areas D and C cannot be explained by the image’s
content. While error level differences may be caused by blurry image content, the clouds on
the right side are sharply defined structures, so the error levels should not exhibit any
significant deviations from the central part of the image in this field.

On page 11, Bellingcat also gives an example of a different satellite picture, with a similar cloud structure, where ELA shows consistent error levels across the picture, contrary to C and D area differences in the MoD picture.
Bellingcat logically concludes :
Quote
Therefore, it is highly likely that the cloud in Picture 4 is not part of the original image and was added later.

Now, even if you discard all that, and go with this guy's assessment that Bellingcat should not conclude this because the picture is too low quality, you have to know that any alleged alterations on picture 4 are not important at all. The important part about picture 4 is that is was mis-dated by the MoD, which was determined by comparing the satellite image to WorldView satellite images, NOT by ELA. On page 17 :
Quote
Picture 4 was taken between 1 June 2014 and 18 June 2014.
Which proves that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the date this picture was taken.
And that was determined without ELA, by just comparing the MoD image to WorldView images.

And that was just ONE picture from the Bellingcat report.

A more important one is picture 5, taken south of Zaroschinskoe, where ELA analysis suggests that the MoD edited 2 BUK vehicles into the satellite image.

Either way, there has been some criticism of using ELA for photo forensics.
That's why Bellingcat contacted the James Martin Center for Non-Proliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, for an independent analysis of the MoD pictures. Here is their report :
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

This report uses a different method than ELA, and still came to the same conclusions as Bellingcat did using FotoForensics. For picture 4 specifically, they conclude :

Quote
The same three regions in the ELA analysis conducted by Bellingcat are evident across multiple filters in Tungstène that show differences in quantization, compression, and noise. In an unaltered image, the central region of the image is unlikely to appear starkly different from the clouds. The cloud on the left side of the image is almost certainly digitally altered or added; the cloud on the right is more than likely altered.

and regarding picture 5 :

Quote
Again, we know the labels have been added and, according to the Russian Ministry of Defense, the field has also been blurred to hide the resolution of the satellite.

But the image shows other signs of manipulation that call into question its integrity. These manipulations include signs that the two Buk launchers do not match the underlying image, suggesting that they have been enhanced or added digitally from another image. Two filters show obvious signs of tampering – artifacts left by software such as Photoshop.

again confirming Bellingcat's analysis.

Now, once again, regarding Krawetz objections to picture 4 alterations are not so important. They don't even show up in Bellingcat's conclusions :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/31/mh17-forensic-analysis-of-satellite-images-released-by-the-russian-ministry-of-defence/

As far as this guy Krawetz is concerned, it looks like his ego was hurt when Bellingcat decided to use his open-access tool rather than ask for his 'expert' opinion, so he could feel important.

Well, sorry Krawetz, but welcome to the age of open-source journalism, where we can all check the evidence and don't have to solely rely on self-proclaimed experts like you any more.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 10:28:32 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #309 on: May 23, 2018, 10:34:27 AM »
The more important conclusion from this Bellingcat report does not rely on ELA or any other photo forensic analysis method at all.

It is the conclusion that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the date that their pictures were taken.

For example, picture 3, where you can simply compare the image from the MoD with images from WorldView at different dates :



Which suggests picture 3 was taken between May 30 and July 2, and definitively NOT on July 17, as the Russian MoD stated.

For that conclusion, we don't need any ELA analysis or any other photoforensic algorithm.
Just GoogleEarth and the 'history' feature will suffice, in a clear win for open-source journalism.
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Buddy

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #310 on: May 23, 2018, 02:36:12 PM »
Lesley Stahl: Trump admitted mission to "discredit" press

I know.....SHOCKING NEWS.  But it is nice to have someone on record showing that Donnie is doing just that.  It's all been part of his "con" from the get go.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/lesley-stahl-60-minutes-president-trump-press/
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Tunnelforce9

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #311 on: May 24, 2018, 03:56:46 AM »
They will write lots of books on this time-period in 100 years, if we survive..

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #312 on: May 24, 2018, 04:52:05 AM »
Rob Dekker, you talk too much and you say too little.

Yeah. Sorry. I thought some people actually wanted to investigate the claims and the evidence.

But let me summarize it for you :

(1) The Bellingcat analysis using ELA that suggested that the Russian Ministry of Defense digitally altered several of the pictures they showed in their 21st of July, 2014 press conference was independently confirmed by the James Martin Center for Non-Proliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, using a different method :
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201635/mh17-anniversary/

(2) The Bellingcat analysis in the same report proved that the Russian Ministry of Defense lied about the dates that some of the other pictures in the press conference did not require ELA. Just GoogleEarth and the 'history' feature.

Either way, the criticism by Krawetz is unfounded, and is based on his opinion, not the facts.

Is that better ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #313 on: May 24, 2018, 05:12:42 AM »
Talking about reporting about MH17, this is a big week :

This Thursday the MH17 JIT will give a press conference. Not sure if they will reveal much about the ongoing criminal investigation.
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-joint-investigation-team-requests-the-public-for-help-in-the-investigation/

And Friday, Bellingcat will present their latest findings in the MH17 case, also in a press conference :
https://mailchi.mp/bellingcat/major-new-bellingcat-and-the-insider-mh17-investigation-may-25-2018-press-conference-in-the-hague?e=f195af6fb0

Remember that Bellingcat was instrumental in finding out early on that the BUK that shot down MH17 originated from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk, Russia and returned to Russia the day after.
That was 2 years before the JIT officially confirmed that the BUK came from Russia and was returned to Russia.

I am really curious what new findings Bellingcat will present Friday. All we know is that it is big, and that it required many, many months of work.
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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #314 on: May 24, 2018, 12:01:25 PM »
... And that's why Bellingcat bashers are Russian assets (for all practical purposes). It's almost as good a litmus test as my climate science test.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 12:12:00 PM by Martin Gisser »

Buddy

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #315 on: May 24, 2018, 08:24:04 PM »
I've noted several times how HORRIBLE the reporting is on FOX.  It is truly abysmal.  And I'll note a few things in the coming week about my pal Sean Hannity and FOX.... they are really "ramping it up" at gestapo headquarters at FOX.

But it is important to note that when you are HORRIBLE ..... whether it is FOX News OR Donald Trump..... you will attract HORRIBLE PEOPLE. 

For those of you that are sports nuts like me, you may have seen Brit McHenry when she was on ESPN.  Well ..... ESPN let ole' Brit go, and she found her way to FOX (she had other "issues" at ESPN).  And in true FOX form ..... she didn't like it when Chris Long decided to donate a years salary to charity.

HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING NICE LIKE THAT

Of course..... Chris Long ripped the new NFL rules regarding the fining of players for not standing during the national anthem.  Good ole Brit McHenry already knows the FOX playbook:

1)  Wear short skirts
2)  Don't praise anyone for doing something really nice for society
3)  Make sure you play the FAKE PATRIOT CARD at every opportunity and support anything King Donnie likes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/foxs-britt-mchenry-rips-chris-long-for-donating-to-charity/ar-AAxKYkE?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

Full Disclosure:  Chris Long is a "Duck" .....
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #316 on: May 25, 2018, 05:29:02 AM »
MH17 is very close to my heart, so today was a big day, with the MH17 JIT giving an update on the criminal investigation. And what an update it was :

NPR did the most accurate report :
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/24/613979423/investigators-say-missile-that-downed-mh17-came-from-russian-military

Quote
The missile "originated" from Russia's 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from the city of Kursk in western Russia, Paulissen said — a "part of the Russian armed forces."

This is very important, since now the Russian state is officially determined to be complicit in this atrocity, which has significant legal implications under international law. The Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs cut short his trip to discuss which political and legal steps should now be taken.

Incidentally, Bellingcat already identified the BUK that shot down MH17 as originating from the 53rd brigade back in September 2014, less than 2 months after the plane was shot down :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/
with a much more detailed report in 2016. NPR writes :

Quote
The investigators' findings support earlier conclusions from the U.K. "citizen investigative journalist" group Bellingcat, which said more than two years ago that photographs from the day the plane was shot down linked the Buk missile to Russia's 53rd brigade in Kursk, as NPR's Corey Flintoff wrote at the time.

These guys at Bellingcat just keep on being right, and keeps on being a royal pain in the butt for Putin apologists and other Russian trolls.

To top it off, Bellingcat has their own BIG announcement about MH17 in their own press conference (their first) tomorrow. I'm very curious what they found, but it promises to be a bombshell.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 05:46:22 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #317 on: May 25, 2018, 07:48:22 AM »
It was BUK 332 not 312 :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/05/03/the_lost_digit/

And no matter what you believe, the JIT believes there is enough evidence to prosecute.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #318 on: May 25, 2018, 10:17:38 AM »
I heard Mr Higgins being interviewed live on a radio program today. He didn't paint the coming press conference in that light. He did say that from what he had been told by the JIT investigators during the previous few days they have no evidence at all of any Russia state or Putin involvement in this matter.

Do your have a reference to that interview ?

Because that statement (in bold) is not something anyone would state, especially not the JIT. And especially not since the JIT showed that the 53rd brigade (and thus the Russian State and Putin)  were in control of the weapon, and are thus at the very least complicit in this crime.

Legally speaking that makes a world of difference, and implies all kind of responsibilities under international law. The Dutch government will convene tomorrow to discuss which legal and political steps can be taken as a result of these findings.

Now let's see what Bellingcat's new findings are..
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 10:44:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #319 on: May 26, 2018, 05:24:53 AM »
Quote
I heard Mr Higgins being interviewed live on a radio program today. He didn't paint the coming press conference in that light. He did say that from what he had been told by the JIT investigators during the previous few days they have no evidence at all of any Russia state or Putin involvement in this matter.

Do your have a reference to that interview ?
Yes. Wasting your time asking me for an url. Ask Higgins he'd know.

I call BS on that. You have nothing. You made up that statement all by yourself.

You know why I know you are making this up ?

Because as a result of the JIT findings, that the 53rd brigade provided the BUK that shot down MH17, and thus that the Russian state was involved, the Netherlands and Australia just declared Russia to be liable for the downing of MH17 :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44252150

Just as shown in your denial of the Douma chemical attack, you are a bad lier, ASILurker.
Shame on you.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 05:36:38 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #320 on: May 26, 2018, 05:48:55 AM »
Back to the real world, the Bellingcat findings published yesterday provide an example of excellent investigative journalism :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

Not only does this show that in Eastern Ukraine, the Russian GRU was in charge of all military operations, (contrary to Russia's denial of involvement) but specifically also that the BUK that shot down MH17 entered Ukraine under GRU control.

Just think about that for a moment about these Bellingcat finding :
The BUK that shot down MH17 appears to have been under Russian Military control at all times. That makes it very unlikely that some rogue "separatist" was responsible for downing MH17 in an "accident".

The Russian Military knows what it is shooting at...
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #321 on: May 28, 2018, 10:28:01 AM »
Here's a nice one from one representative of establishment media:

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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #322 on: May 28, 2018, 05:09:27 PM »
Here's a nice one from one representative of establishment media:
\

Well, yes, that former editor of Time pretty plainly deserves an arsehole of the year award.
But overall, this video is crappy journalism.  Dore uses a handful of statements from a *former* editor to get on a soapbox and deliver a stream of poorly-supported, highly dogmatic, unbalanced and essentially unthoughtful monologue, with a hallelujah chorus on hand to cheer him on.

This isn't joournalism, it's crap.

Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #323 on: May 28, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
It's an opinion. You can agree or disagree.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #324 on: May 28, 2018, 05:46:38 PM »
It's an opinion. You can agree or disagree.

Well, yes.  Ultimately what constitutes good or bad journalism boils down to an opinion.  But there are opinions based on observations, analysis, and thought, and there are thoughtless opinions.
I cited why I thought it was a piece of crap journalism.  Anything of substance to say about the basis of the opinion stated?

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #325 on: May 28, 2018, 10:24:05 PM »
Thanks Neven. The ignored question from the audience on the effects of US propaganda on the rest of the world, was quite telling. The non response from the corporate propagandist is even more telling, and exposes the navel gazing narcissism of organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations.

sidd
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 11:14:17 PM by sidd »

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #326 on: May 28, 2018, 10:51:19 PM »
Here's a good discussion of what JOURNALISM is.

https://www.robertniles.com/journalism/

It is a 2 page straightforward discussion of what journalism is.  Now....this was prepared for people with more intelligence and experience than Donnie .... but I think it serves a very good purpose of stating things CLEARLY and SUSINCTLY.


Quote
Here are the keys to writing good journalism:

•Get the facts. All the facts you can.
•Tell your readers where you got every bit of information you put in your story.
•Be honest about what you do not know.
•Don't try to write fancy. Keep it clear.

https://www.robertniles.com/journalism/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 12:09:20 AM by Buddy »
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Neven

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #327 on: May 28, 2018, 11:44:20 PM »
•Don't write negative articles about Jeff Bezos or Amazon.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #328 on: May 29, 2018, 12:17:25 AM »
Maybe I have been living under a rock.  I did not know that Jeff wrote any articles about RussiaGate.  Nor did I know that Amazon had been writing articles or covering RussiaGate.  Does The Washington Post realize that Amazon is honing in on their business? Who knew?🤷‍♀️
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 12:02:59 PM by Buddy »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #329 on: May 29, 2018, 07:14:04 AM »
•Don't write negative articles about Jeff Bezos or Amazon.

That sounds like a really narrow-minded opinion about journalism.
Would you care to elaborate ?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #330 on: May 29, 2018, 08:42:17 AM »
On social media, lies spread faster—and further—than the truth

How One Doctor’s False Claim Was Used To Erase Atrocities In Syria

https://arcdigital.media/how-one-doctors-false-claim-was-used-to-erase-atrocities-in-syria-d76459ffa4e2

Quote
Claiming to be a cardiologist, Twitter user @Thomas_Binder posted a tweet in the aftermath of the chemical attack in Syria last month accusing medical workers of faking a photo in which victims of the attack were pictured receiving life-saving care. Binder later admitted that the information in his tweet was wrong, but by the time he did so, the false claim had already been retweeted over ten thousand times and used to propagate a smear campaign against the volunteer rescue group known as the White Helmets.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #331 on: June 04, 2018, 02:00:47 PM »
Back to the real world, the Bellingcat findings published yesterday provide an example of excellent investigative journalism

Hi Rob,

that would be your version of a 'real world' I take it? One in which 'open source' citizen investigations comprised of cobbled together stories based on social media replace actual professional investigative journalism?

The Belingcat video evidence is debatable, specifically with respect to time stamps, and won't be sufficient for anything other than a kangaroo court via corporate media. Which is probably why the Australian Fed Police rep asked for any further witnesses as they do need some actual evidence.

Please note that Belingcat's repeated use of terms like "very high certainty" - "beyond any doubt" - "no plausible reason to doubt" - do not actually constitute court ready evidence. That and the fact they're a British based propaganda outfit and part of the ongoing propaganda war against Russia would tend to suggest they're the opposite of actual professional investigative journalism.

This recent MH17 story had a rather fast turnaround here in Aus concentrating on the Dutch and Australian anti-Russian conclusions minus the Malaysian objections, and with any reference to Belingcat buried further down or erased altogether, mainly because Belingcat rings too many BS alarm bells amongst the Aus populace. 

It's embarrassing to have my idiot Tory government bunch of clowns weigh in with such an obvious propaganda attack based on Belingcat(!) social media blogging rather than actual evidence. You'd think our intelligence elites could come up with something a bit more ... intelligent!

It's also a nasty way to politicize the deaths of Australian citizens. Hopefully if it ever does go to an actual court with real evidence we'll find out something approximating the truth although I doubt it.

My money, from the start, has always been on Avakov's Interior Ministry troops wot done it, as Cui Bono would indicate a false flag to blame on the RF with propaganda outcomes like the Dutch/Australian evidence free tag team report just released.

Why else would you deliberately shoot down a high altitude, slow-moving passenger jet barely minutes before it crosses into Russian airspace?

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #332 on: June 05, 2018, 08:58:33 AM »
I think it was Rob in the recent past casting negative aspersions on the credibility of both Robert Fisk and Seymour Hersh as journalists because they presented alternative evidence and views than Bellingcat's fictions about Syria.

I don't know about Seymour Hersh, but the report by Robert Fisk was terrible. All he did was interview a self-proclaimed "doctor" who was NOT present at the time. Fisk never visited the crime scene, nor did he interview anyone related to the victims.
Fisk produced an abysmal piece of journalism.

The only thing that is worse than that is your denial of the chemical attack on Douma.

Bellingcat produced a reasoned, and evidence based count of the attack here :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
which nobody has been able to debunk.
Which is a good indication they are reporting the truth.

Quote
One of the most telling things to me about MH17 is not what has been said by the US Government and Intel/Mil chiefs but instead they have not said. I mention this mode of operating on another thread today.

The second most telling thing is the distinct lack of evidence provided by the U.S. Intel/Mil to the investigators or to the public that is in their possession about movements and Coms traffic in eastern Ukraine in the days and weeks leading up to and following the loss of MH17.
You Putin lovers all want the US military to make public all they know about MH17. 
And you all fail to recognize that they already did provide valuable information.

They provided the launch location and even the flight path of the missile :



Which, if you analyze the details, is consistent with the launch location south of Snizhne as first identified by ukraine@war, and later confirmed by the Dutch Safety Board :
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/27/is-this-the-launch-site-of-the-missile-that-shot-down-flight-mh17/
 
What else do you want the US to provide ?

Quote
Unfortunately it's not 1986 anymore. The world has changed significantly since then. And not in a good way.

Fortunately it is not 1986 any more. We now have internet and people uploading videos and pictures of stuff they find interesting, and that creates what we call "open-source" journalism, where all the evidence is publicly available and verifiable, which resulted in enough evidence to conclude that MH17 was shot down by a BUK from the 53rd brigade in Kursk, Russia.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 09:13:11 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #333 on: June 05, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »
Or do you prefer this picture from Russian TV1, which they claim suggests is a US satellite picture that proves that a Ukrainian fighter plane shot down MH17 :



This was really presented by Russia TV1, I'm not kidding :
https://www.1tv.ru/news/2014-11-14/29049-za_mgnoveniya_do_krusheniya_boinga_pod_donetskom_unikalnyy_kadr_v_analiticheskoy_programme_odnako

But if you look closer, you will see that the plane is larger than Donetsk airport, and the fighter jet is larger than a plowing field.

Actually, if we zoom in a bit, we can see Putin behind the controls  ;):


« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 10:01:46 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #334 on: June 05, 2018, 10:10:37 PM »
As much as I am interested in world politics and US politics in particular, I'm going to unsubscribe/unnotify from these discussions, so I can fully focus on the Arctic. I've learned a lot from these discussions, so my thanks go out to everyone participating in them.
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #335 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:06 PM »
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):



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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #336 on: June 15, 2018, 01:09:22 AM »
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now)
Yes, bad journalism. But in a different sense: Content free Rachel Maddow bashing. That's no journalism at all.

These poor little ones on the wannabe progressive media side are simply envious of Rachel's success and analytic prowess. What do they have to offer? Nothing comparable! Kyle is an angry dwarf. Jimmy can't even tell the difference between Uranium and Plutonium, and is dripping with wannabe progressive college student arrogance. -- Yes, Rachel might have overdone the point about Russia. But there's another thing she told. And comparing Trump's "diplomacy" with Obama's is ridiculous. 'Nuff neurons wasted.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #337 on: June 15, 2018, 01:58:03 AM »
Per Neven...
Quote
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

Yes.... Maddow must be just as crazy as Hannity now.  Let's take a look at that insightful post:

1)  Global warming

Hannity has lied about global warming for about 20 years now.  Maddow thinks global warming is happening, man is causing it, and man needs to do something about it.

  Hannity from 2016

2)  Gun Control

Hannity is a big backer of the NRA, and downplays gun control every chance he gets.  Maddow wants more gun control:  Regulations assault rifles, size of gun magazine, etc.



3)  Mueller Investigation:

Hannity wants to shut the Mueller investigation down NOW.  Maddow wants the Mueller investigation to complete its work.  Considering that everyone on the Trump team has lied about their contacts with Russians ..... that Michael Flynn, Trump's national security advisor has flipped ..... the Paul Manafort has had MULTIPLE contacts with Ukranians and Russians over the years and is financially compromised to at least one of them ..... that the Trump campaign met MULTIPLE TIMES with Russians..... I think it would be IRRESPONSIBLE to not complete the Mueller investigation.

==================================================

And the above was BEFORE I had to endure the beginning of the "The Kyle Kulinski Show".  Kyle didn't waste much time lying....he got right to it:

Talking to people who are your enemies WAS NOT THE ISSUE.  THE ISSUE WAS PRAISING YOUR ENEMY.  Talking is GOOD.  Praising a heartless, murdering dictator..... HEAPING PRAISE on him, is the issue.  Obama DIDN'T do that when he talked with Castro. BIG DIFFERENCE.

And that is all Kulinski talked about.  Did you really listen to it?  Personally, I LIKED the fact that Trump wanted to talk with North Korea.  THAT....is a good idea.  Of course, it is a BAD IDEA to go into ANY TALKS of importance....without preparing, and understanding the history and background.  And since Donnie doesn't like to read....well, you get my drift.

I thought Jimmy Dore was bad.  Kulinski makes him look like a rocket scientist.  Look.... if he (or you) want to bash on Rachel....great....have at it.  But use FACTS.... and what they ACTUALLY SAY. 



 

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #338 on: June 15, 2018, 04:20:03 AM »
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

I'm not sure why you are saying that, since Hannity at this point has more in common with Dore and Kulinski than he has with Maddow.

Maddow has a point : Trump just not only put dictator Kim Jong Un as equal on the international stage, but also just gave him what he wants : no more US - South Korean military exercises.
And the US received nothing in return, except for a Trump PR stunt.

Look, you can have the opinion that this summit is the start of something good.
But considering that we are dealing with a 70 year old problem, it is more likely that its not.

Smearing somebody (like Maddow) who points out that Trump gave in too soon is not productive.

If anything, supposedly left-wing journalists smearing left-wing journalists like Maddow suggests that the political left in the US is divided more than ever.

Bernie said to "bring people together".
Guys like Dore and Kulinski smearing Maddow is not helping in uniting the left.
And without unity, the political right will prevail.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 04:52:47 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #339 on: June 15, 2018, 04:55:08 AM »
Maddow is a warmonger, as long as Trump moves toward withdrawal. She is a peacemaker for Iran since Trump rattles sabre in that direction. Mate nails it.

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #340 on: June 15, 2018, 01:26:54 PM »
Bad journalism (Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now):

I'm not sure why you are saying that, since Hannity at this point has more in common with Dore and Kulinski than he has with Maddow.
Now you're insulting Dore and Kulinski :)  Hannity is Trump's Goebbels. Oops, now I insulted Goebbels' intelligence.

---------------
P.S.: Susan linked this somewhere else. Should also be here. It's often the comedians who do the best journalism in the U.S. Lots of Hannity fun.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:09:13 PM by Martin Gisser »

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #341 on: June 15, 2018, 03:06:54 PM »
Smearing somebody (like Maddow) who points out that Trump gave in too soon is not productive.

If anything, supposedly left-wing journalists smearing left-wing journalists like Maddow suggests that the political left in the US is divided more than ever.

Bernie said to "bring people together".
Guys like Dore and Kulinski smearing Maddow is not helping in uniting the left.
And without unity, the political right will prevail.
Exactly. Squabbling children. Circular firing squad. Playing in the hands of the political right - and then whine and complain. Idiotic and disgusting. When will they ever learn?


Is that enough content to fill the neuron void? :)
Someone should watch TRMS more often. But, boy, she's talking soo fast :)

Last day's TRMS without commercials: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:36:07 PM by Martin Gisser »

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #342 on: June 16, 2018, 07:39:04 AM »
Not fully off-topic

In Alerts 2017: The Breaking Of The Corporate Media Monopoly, Last Updated on 15 June 2017, By Editor   
http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/850-the-breaking-of-the-corporate-media-monopoly.html

"We don't need to tolerate a corporate-filtered view of the world. We can inform ourselves and each other, and we can do so with very much more honesty, courage and compassion than any corporate journalist. If there is one message from last week, it's a simple one – dump the corporate media; all of it."

A corporate-filtered view example:
"While employing a handful of compromised fig leaves, the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone who has sought to challenge the status quo: Julian Assange, Russell Brand, Hugo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Edward Herman, John Pilger, George Galloway and many others. It has also been complicit in the great war crimes of Iraq, Libya and Syria – accepting fake government justifications for war at face value, ignoring expert sources who made a nonsense of the claims, and propagandising hard for the West's supposed 'responsibility to protect' the nations it so obviously seeks to destabilise and exploit."

There are much more to it, in the article.

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #343 on: June 16, 2018, 08:58:50 AM »
"While employing a handful of compromised fig leaves, the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone who has sought to challenge the status quo: Julian Assange, Russell Brand, Hugo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Edward Herman, John Pilger, George Galloway and many others. It has also been complicit in the great war crimes of Iraq, Libya and Syria....

That's quite a statement.

Do you have any examples of where the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone... etc ?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #344 on: June 16, 2018, 10:36:40 AM »
Rob Dekker wrote: "Do you have any examples of where the Guardian has ruthlessly smeared anyone... etc ?"

MediaLens might have some? I don't collect that stuff.

Information gathered by own efforts might be more appreciated, we have several search engines why not use them?
If you try you might run on something like: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , ...

? Search ;)

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #345 on: June 17, 2018, 05:48:00 AM »
Trump produced a successful (for him) reality show on TV. Now he is producing the Presidency as a post-reality TV show.

"Trump understands, from an insider’s perspective, what drives TV ratings and what keeps people watching."

Yup. And not just on TV. He's using the net like a pro. He learns quick.

The media is hugely complicit. They don't take the cameras off him for fear of losing ratings. He's got em in a cleft stick.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392578-the-memo-trumps-media-game-puts-press-on-back-foot

sidd




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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #346 on: June 19, 2018, 06:51:25 AM »
An example of Good Journalism

Glen Ford frames reality quite well and more accurately here too:

Trump campaigned in 2016 for normal relations with Russia, an end to the U.S. regime change offensive, and opposition to so-called “free” trade, thus uniting most of the ruling class against him. It turned out that Trump’s wholly unexpected appeal for peaceful relations with Russia did not deter huge majorities of Republicans from voting for him in the primaries and the general election. The political conclusion was inescapable: If white Republicans were not wedded to the permanent war agenda -- or cared more about maintaining white supremacy at home than funding endless hostilities abroad -- then where was the mass constituency for the bipartisan War Party? If Trump’s “deplorables” weren’t wedded to the War Party, then who was?

and

Trump’s surprise election threw the bulk of the elite, the corporate media, the military-industrial complex, and the spooks of the intelligence agencies, into panic, as they confronted a crisis of legitimacy for the Warfare State. Now firmly aligned with Hillary Clinton and the Democrats, their response was to pre-empt Trump’s threatened rapprochement with Russia with a massive anti-Putin campaign. The elites realized they had to recreate -- on the fly, with no factual basis -- a war fervor that no longer existed among the masses of people, through Russiagate. In the chaotic process, they have further delegitimized virtually every U.S. institution, all the while putting the onus for the damage on the Vladimir Putin.

 
https://blackagendareport.com/chaos-imperial-big-house

(hat tip to sidd)

Interesting. If in the above you replace "Trump" by "Obama" and replace "Republicans" with "Democrats", and "Democrats" by "Republicans", you pretty much get a good overview of the 2008 Obama election, maybe except for the "opposition to free trade" part.

The "reset" with Russia stayed the same. Obama tried that after 2008.
And arguably the "elites" (the rich) stay the same as well.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 07:01:09 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #347 on: June 19, 2018, 08:15:35 AM »
Assuming you underlined the most surprising facts in this re-write of the story :
Quote
Obama's wholly unexpected appeal for peaceful relations with Russia
That's called the Obama Russia reset. There is even a Wiki page about it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset

Point is, a 'reset' with the relations with Russia was tried before.

It didn't work under Obama, and it doesn't work under Trump because Russia under Putin is not interested in better relationships with the US and the west in general.

Putin wants Russia to be a world power in the eyes of the Russian people. But if the west is a friend, people in Russia will see how other countries do better than Russia, which would be a grave threat to Putin's policies and existence. So he needs to blame the west for the problems in Russia.

So he uses the classic "blame-and-deny" policy that was used by many dictators, and by Hitler specifically.

Since the west tries to be nice with Russia all the time, Putin needs to provoke the west over and over again, for the west to remain a threat to Russia. Therefore actions in Georgia, in Ukraine, annexing Crimea, shooting down MH17, Skripal poisoning, bombing hospitals in Syria, interfering in the US elections, supporting Assad in his use of chemical weapons, threatening nuclear war with the west, and so on and on and on. Anything he can do to provoke a reaction from the west, for which he can then use "plausible deniability" to deny his own actions and blame the west for it.

It works for Putin, and looking at the responses here, he fools many believers.

And regarding your second underlined section :
Quote
Obama's surprise election

Yes. Who would have known that the US would elect a black president...?
And regarding Trump : Who would have known that the US would elect a white bigot, racist billionaire...?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:31:24 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #348 on: June 20, 2018, 06:37:41 AM »
Another example of Good Journalism
Selected quotes:

"Russophobia Undermining British Democracy

The result of this intolerance is a sharp contraction in the freedom of Britain’s public space, with those who disagree on British policy towards Russia increasingly afraid to speak out.

Since establishment opinion in Britain conceives of itself as defending liberal democracy from attack by Russia, and since establishment opinion increasingly conflates liberal democracy with its own opinions, it follows that in its conception any challenge to its opinions is an attack on liberal democracy, and must therefore be the work of Russia.

This paranoid view has now become pervasive. No part of the traditional media is free of it. It has gained a strong hold on the BBC and it is fair to say that all the big newspapers subscribe to it. Anyone who does not has no future in British journalism.

This is disturbing in itself, but as with all forms of institutional paranoia, it is also having a damaging effect on the functioning of Britain’s institutions.

...

Britain Becoming Marginalised

If the result of the British establishment’s paranoia about Russia is deeply corrosive within Britain itself, its effect on British foreign policy has been entirely negative.

The result is that major international questions such as the Ukrainian crisis, the Syrian conflict and the gathering crisis in the Middle East caused by the U.S.’s withdrawal from the Iranian nuclear deal – in all of which Russia is centrally involved – are being handled without British involvement.
Where Angela Merkel of Germany and Emmanuel Macron of France talk to Russia and have thereby managed to carve out for themselves important roles in world affairs, Britain’s Theresa May is a bit player.
...
Far from gaining relevance by leading an international crusade against Russia, the British are increasingly finding that no one else is interested and that May’s and the British establishment’s obsession with Russia instead of enhancing Britain’s importance is making Britain increasingly irrelevant.
...

The Price of an Obsession

The British establishment’s obsession with Russia is something of a puzzle.

Britain today is not a geopolitical rival of Russia’s as it was in the nineteenth century and as the U.S. is today. British antagonism to Russia cannot therefore be explained as the product of a geopolitical conflict.

Russia is not a military or political threat to Britain. There is no history of Russia threatening or invading Britain. Russia is not an economic rival, and Russian penetration of the British economy is minimal and vastly exaggerated.

It is sometimes said that there are things about modern Russia that the British find culturally, ideologically or politically distasteful, and that this is the reason for Britain’s intense hostility to Russia. However Britain has no difficulty being best of friends with all sorts of countries such as the Gulf Monarchies or China which are culturally, ideologically and politically far more different from Britain than Russia is. Logically that should make them more distasteful to Britain than Russia is, but it doesn’t seem to do so. In these cases economic interests clearly take precedence over any concerns for human rights.

Ultimately however the precise cause of the British establishment’s obsession with Russia does not actually matter. What does matter is that it is an obsession, which should be recognised as such, and that like all other obsessions is ultimately destructive."

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/15/letter-from-britain-an-establishment-blinded-by-russophobia/

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #349 on: June 20, 2018, 09:00:12 AM »
That consortiumnews.com opinion piece was written by Alexander Mercouris.

A bit of background check tells a lot about this guy :

https://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-columnist-alexander-mercouris-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped/

Another author on Kremlin’s Sputnik International will be A. Mercouris, disbarred for deceiving a client. Now A. Mercouris is a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.
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