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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 60726 times)

Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #350 on: June 20, 2018, 11:53:30 AM »
That consortiumnews.com opinion piece was written by Alexander Mercouris.

A bit of background check tells a lot about this guy :

https://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-columnist-alexander-mercouris-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped/

Another author on Kremlin’s Sputnik International will be A. Mercouris, disbarred for deceiving a client. Now A. Mercouris is a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

Rob, I know that you love to shoot at the messanger when you don't like the message.
It's the easiest way, you don't need to listen, you don't need to argue, you just shoot.

The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #351 on: June 21, 2018, 08:18:28 AM »
The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.

Hefaistos, the piece by Mercouris is a fact free opinion piece. Why do you say this is "excellent, and great journalism" ? Just because you agree with his opinion ?

Nowhere in this article do I see any mention of the facts : Of Russia's aggression in Georgia, or in Ukraine, or Russia annexing Crimea, or shooting down MH17, or the Skripal poisoning (other than the mention that Skripal deflected to the west), no mentioning of the Russian bombing of hospitals in Syria, nor of the Russian interference in the US elections (and 26 other countries), no mentioning of Russian support for Assad using chemical weapons, nor any mention of Russia threatening nuclear war with the west.

Any of these are examples of increased Russian aggression, which did not go unnoticed in the free world, and Mercouris ignores all of it.

He then simply asserts "russiophobia" without context. This makes his piece a fact-free, biased piece of pro-Russian propaganda, and yes, in that context it is good to check out the author, where we find out, surprise, surprise, that he is a a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

You could have known, since consortiumnews.com is on the propornot.com list for repeatedly spreading Russian propaganda.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:11:40 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #352 on: June 21, 2018, 09:55:10 PM »
I lost the stomach to read all through all that, but honestly, the Guardian is a warmongering nasty? Hannity is OK?

Just so you know, Trump has a lovefest with Hannity on his TV every night, and the two of them talk regularly.



[Links below won't work; you can find them and others by searching: "trump's talks to Hannity" for a variety of reports.]

Quote
About 770,000 results (0.68 seconds)
Search Results
Trump talks to Hannity on the phone nearly every night to 'decompress ...
www.nydailynews.com/.../trump-talks-hannity-phone-night-report-article-1.3990081

May 15, 2018 - Fox News host Sean Hannity calls the White House switchboard nearly every night after his show to speak to President Trump, according to a ...
Donald Trump and Sean Hannity's Late Night Calls - NYMag
nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/.../sean-hannity-donald-trump-late-night-calls.ht...

May 13, 2018 - Donald Trump and Sean Hannity like to talk before bedtime. Here's a look at life inside the bunker of Fox News' resident Trumplegänger.
Trump reportedly talks to Sean Hannity most nights before bed ...
www.businessinsider.com/trump-sean-hannity-talk-before-bed-2018-5

May 14, 2018 - President Donald Trump and Fox News host Sean Hannity apparently talk on the phone every night, according to a report from New York ...
Report: President Trump and Sean Hannity talk nearly every weeknight
https://www.usatoday.com/story/...trump...hannity...every-weeknight.../607595002/

I get that some of you hate Rachel Maddow - yes, I said hate, because the rejection of facts and bias are visceral rather than logical. She has her "beat" and her research team and work are as good as it gets. The last few days she's been focusing on the children separated at the border, and I've often heard her on a range of topics. MSNBC is in no way like Fox. Fox is largely fact-free and presents opinion from the right. MSNBC is a serious news organization that fills a hole in reporting on the more progressive end of the scale. They are not warmongers; that is a ridiculous assertion, not based on evidence. It is tempting to think that many people don't like a woman who presents more like a man than a woman, direct and "unfeminine".
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:07:06 PM by Susan Anderson »

SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #353 on: June 22, 2018, 03:37:48 AM »

I get that some of you hate Rachel Maddow - yes, I said hate, because the rejection of facts and bias are visceral rather than logical. She has her "beat" and her research team and work are as good as it gets. The last few days she's been focusing on the children separated at the border, and I've often heard her on a range of topics. MSNBC is in no way like Fox. Fox is largely fact-free and presents opinion from the right. MSNBC is a serious news organization that fills a hole in reporting on the more progressive end of the scale. They are not warmongers; that is a ridiculous assertion, not based on evidence. It is tempting to think that many people don't like a woman who presents more like a man than a woman, direct and "unfeminine".

Completely agree.  Out of decades of consumption of broadcast journalism, nobody holds a candle to Maddow.  She's highly educated,well-trained, and is rather scrupulous about describing her sources.  She's engaging and enlightening.  Yes, she has a progressive take on events, but she doesn't hide that viewpoint. She routinely invites Republicans and others of differing viewpoint, and treats them fairly, without hesitating  to ask challenging questions.

It would be sane for a conservative to criticize her "liberal bias."  There's  some truth, not in the veracity of what she reports, but by her selection of what stories to report on.  In her shoes, in this  country, in the current environment, I'd feel compelled to do  exactly as she does in this way.

I share your dismay at  the periodic criticism/dismissal of Maddow's work.  My hunch is that such may be partially colored by (unconscious?) misogyny or homophobia.  I think very smart, successful women get more than their share of criticism, on both the Right and Left.  That's unfortunate.  I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #354 on: June 22, 2018, 05:56:12 AM »
Hannity is OK?

Who said he was OK .... no one ..... so who are you talking to besides the "air"?

Calm down cowboy. This has nothing to do with you.
Neven here suggested (without showing any evidence) that "Maddow is just as crazy as Hannity now" :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg158843.html#msg158843

Neven then posted two videos (by Kulinski and Dore) critical of Rachel Maddow.
But he posted nothing critical of Hannity.

So Susan's question was reasonable, and likely directed at Neven.

[edit]. OK. I take that back (that it has nothing to do with you).
You did your own share of Maddow bashing here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg158875.html#msg158875
And not a bad word about Hannity from you either...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:47:26 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #355 on: June 22, 2018, 06:07:28 AM »

I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.


Oh that's plain silly. Not by men and women or LGBTIQ on the left liberal progressive pro-community side of politics - it isn't. The criticisms are obviously always about what they say what they do and what they VOTE in Congress.

Please show us a good piece of journalism which shows that the voting records of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton differ from the left liberal progressive side of politics. Because I'm a left liberal progressive voter and I find their voting record to be excellent.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:12:07 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #356 on: June 22, 2018, 08:34:27 AM »
Everyone has their opinions. Your's are not better by default. I was simply pointing that obvious facts of the world. Plus go do your own research on voting records - I am not your slave.

You have NOTHING, do you, Lurker ?
No evidence against Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton at all.
You have a big mouth and no beef.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #357 on: June 22, 2018, 09:07:21 AM »
Here is one fact based piece of journalism, relevant to the subject of Russiagate :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/06/21/know-hexamine-syrias-sarin/

It turns out that in the documented sarin attacks on civilians in Syria (which Russia alternatively denies happened, or blames on the rebels) hexamine is a consistent ingredient. Hexamine is rarely used in the sarin production process, but the Syrian government itself declared that they use hexamine as an acid scavenger.

This puts one more piece of the puzzle in place of the chemical weapons use in the ongoing civil war in Syria, and it links the many documented sarin attacks once again to the Syrian government.
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Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #358 on: June 22, 2018, 10:19:54 AM »
I am reluctant to emphasize the complex subject of attacks on women; I think it may be a factor with a certain kind of woman, and for a lot of people it may be one of a complex variety of "feelings". But it is bound to raise people's hackles and is rarely black and white. As with religion, telling people who they are is bound to misfire; the problem of separating feelings from evaluation of quality needs some diplomacy and putting people's backs up doesn't help.

I was dismayed when I saw Hillary Clinton with Elizabeth Warren because it was evident to me that Hillary simply didn't come across the "footlights" the way Warren did. Though I looked carefully at Hillary's history when I left Bernie (his one-note insistence on what's right - which I don't dispute - are not an action plan and he's still sowing discord amongst good people, though mostly it's the fringe not him), it was hard to warm to her as a public speaker. Unfortunately, money is part of the equation in politics, and is often cited as a marker of evil. The way things are, that is another coded attack that is not an indicator of intent or heart. Hillary had good policy plans that might have worked. We do, however, need a congress with a majority that is not solely devoted to preventing action, as Obama's was (he had a majority to overcome this for all of 5 months in 2009).

Blaming victims is a lousy strategy, particularly when the minority is your only hope to overcome true evil. True evil is the evolution of the current Republicans in power and their festering takeover of public authorities, the voting apparatus, and the courts.

Rachel Maddow has been devoting her time lately (with a digression into the government failure on Katrina which all of us watched for days on national TV while Bush and his people said they didn't know what was happening) to reporting on the separation of kids (as young as 8 months) from their parents. There is no recordkeeping or identification so the kids and parents can find each other. Local authorities and airline personnel are finding out they were lied to, a vignette of a judge's disgusted reaction when he's told parents don't need to know where their kids are by federal prosecutors (they're now using the military). Alex Azar (Secretary of Health and Human Services) is one of the many Trumpian appointees who doesn't give a flying f*** about his victims and hasn't lifted a pinky for human rights.
--
On the Syrian gas attack, it is surprising that the claim it didn't happen has any credibility in any group of people who I know are at heart compassionate. It is an indicator of the way the internet allows people to find biased material that supports their claims, and ignore material that they don't wish to hear. Like the problem with women, which is varied and individual, claims of trolling go nowhere, but it is obvious that "alternative facts" that are not facts are promoted here on the forum, and it's impossible to sort out the propaganda sources from the honestly misled.

As a veteran of the climate wars, I am all too familiar with the proliferation of misinformation and its insidious spread. I beg of you, exercise intelligent skepticism about your sources if they are promoting Russian propaganda. This is not about US and western history of misdeeds (absent the Marshall Plan), but with not taking dubious material on faith without checking much more carefully. The internet has a whole superstructure for climate denialists. The one attacking Democrats in the US and promoting mayhem is all about helping us on our road to perdition. We may deserve the damnation, but Russia is not the angel in this situation.

Here: https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/12/disinformation-conspiracy-trolling-syrian-chemical-attack/

Quote
University of Birmingham, told us although Moscow became militarily involved in the Syrian conflict in 2015, they had a propaganda office at the presidential palace in Damascus since the beginning. “From the very start you could see how they were putting out muddled story lines just to make you uncertain about what’s happening,” he told us.

The White Helmets, also known by their official title Syria Civil Defense, are a non-governmental organization made up of volunteers who carry out rescue efforts in rebel-held territory while wearing small cameras. Aside from saving lives, they have been credited with documenting war crimes. Thus, they are targets of frequent (but unproven and unfounded) smears that they are terrorists who are staging “false flag” attacks.

Lucas told us attacking medical facilities and first responders then accusing them of terrorism is a Russian tactic, because first responders in Syria — where it’s extremely difficult and dangerous for foreign journalists to enter — are often key reporters of atrocities:

    The Russians would go after hospitals and first responders and the propaganda would come out that you shouldn’t trust information from White Helmets or doctors because they’re aligned with the terrorists. They were deliberately bombing the area but saying you can’t trust anyone who is reporting it.

Official Russian government channels are not the only sources of misleading information. Lucas pointed to a coterie of Western social media personalities and bloggers who have concentrated their efforts on running interference for the Assad regime.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:53:02 AM by Susan Anderson »

Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #359 on: June 22, 2018, 10:50:40 AM »
Here's more on Syria: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/world/middleeast/un-syria-eastern-ghouta.html Horrific Details on Syria Chemical Attacks Left Out, for Now, From U.N. Report

And here about torture in Russia before the World Cup: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/world-cup-russia-torture-putin.html

Quote
Now read the words of Dmitry Pchelintsev as they appeared in MediaZona, a small independent online publication focused on police brutality and the prison system in Russia: “The man in surgical gloves cranked the DC generator with wires attached to my toes. The calves of my legs started contracting violently, I was paralyzed with pain. They threw me on the floor, pulled my underpants down and tried to attach the wires to my genitals. I clenched my teeth so hard that my mouth was full of blood and shards of broken teeth.”

Mr. Pchelintsev, a 26-year-old anti-fascist activist from the industrial town of Penza, told his lawyer about this in February — and then, he has said, he was tortured again to make him disown his statement.

He is part of what his torturers — Russia’s main intelligence agency, the F.S.B. — allege is a conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism during the World Cup to provoke “popular masses for further destabilization of the political climate in the country.” Nine young men have been charged in the case with “creating a terrorist cell.” One managed to flee the country; the others have been arrested, tortured and made to confess to being part of an underground terrorist organization called “the Network.” There’s no evidence that any such organization or plot existed.

Things get even weirder: A seamstress in Kazan, one of the World Cup host cities, says she was framed by a police officer who pretended to be a customer with a very specific request to make a life-size doll of Zabivaka, the 2018 World Cup’s mascot — and then charged her with violating FIFA’s copyright rules.

None of this should come as a surprise. President Vladimir Putin has given the Russian security services free rein in the lead-up to the World Cup.

Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #360 on: June 22, 2018, 07:11:20 PM »
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.

Rob Dekker, when he or she does this, please take the high road and remain silent. Please address the issues, not the person, and imagine some real lurker who is confused by apparent evidence on the merits of the arguments and judges based on relative affect rather than the effects we are discussing.

None of us are well served by personal pissing contests.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 08:16:30 PM by Susan Anderson »

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #361 on: June 22, 2018, 11:02:13 PM »
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.
Susan


In recent posts you've defended the White Helmets, perpetuated the myth of Syrian gas attacks, and accused the Russians of exactly the same torture methods that we've documented as having taken place under the watch of America's most recently vetted CIA chief.
Vetted I might add, by so many of the Corporate Democrats you defend so nobly, that she is now the public face of  America's CIA.


Now you defend Rob Dekker and advise the victim to block Rob's vitriolic posts?


Are your canvases as devoid of shading as your posts?
Terry

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #362 on: June 22, 2018, 11:40:43 PM »
Media doing an iraq repeat,  love every war. Shut the war down ? No way. Zakaria, Kristof, Bremmer, all beating war drums:

https://original.antiwar.com/porter/2018/06/21/an-elite-coalition-emerges-against-a-trump-kim-agreement/

You would think these guys are being paid by Raytheon and General Dynamics and Boeing. But the sadder reality probably is that war is good for media profitability.

sidd


sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #363 on: June 23, 2018, 12:03:22 AM »
Nader nails it again:

"Would be nice if Laura Bush and Michelle Obama had expressed similar heartfelt concern for the tens of thousands of children killed or seriously maimed by the wars of their husbands in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. -R "

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/06/22/ralph-nader-asks-former-first-ladies-why-no-heartfelt-concern-tens-thousands

sidd

Susan Anderson

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #364 on: June 23, 2018, 12:30:57 AM »
ASILurker: Pot meet kettle. I suggest you block his posts (you can go to your profile and find this function with a little fiddling), since your comments are an escalation and undermine what you have to say. On the merits, Rob Dekker is less abusive than you are, and more accurate as to reality.
Susan

In recent posts you've defended the White Helmets, perpetuated the myth of Syrian gas attacks, and accused the Russians of exactly the same torture methods that we've documented as having taken place under the watch of America's most recently vetted CIA chief.
Vetted I might add, by so many of the Corporate Democrats you defend so nobly, that she is now the public face of  America's CIA.

Now you defend Rob Dekker and advise the victim to block Rob's vitriolic posts?

Nice multi-person personal attacks, fact free as usual, and oblivious to the vitriol you yourself have evidenced in this comment. You appear to ignore anything anyone posts with content you don't want to believe, except as material for serial insults.

If you believe that, I've got a swamp in Florida to sell you. That's why I only look at your posts when I have the stomach to read them. Your consistent promotion of the Putin propaganda version does not enhance your credibility. You apparently don't read anything I say for content except when you want to promote alternative realities.

TerryM

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #365 on: June 23, 2018, 06:51:39 AM »

Nice multi-person personal attacks, fact free as usual, and oblivious to the vitriol you yourself have evidenced in this comment. You appear to ignore anything anyone posts with content you don't want to believe, except as material for serial insults.

If you believe that, I've got a swamp in Florida to sell you. That's why I only look at your posts when I have the stomach to read them. Your consistent promotion of the Putin propaganda version does not enhance your credibility. You apparently don't read anything I say for content except when you want to promote alternative realities.
Would you prefer that I bold and quote each paragraph you have so recently penned?
I don't promote pro Putin propaganda, but rather strive to blunt the anti Putin propaganda that's so popular in the MSM. If you had read my posts, as diligently as I read yours you might have come to this conclusion on your own.


In those moments that are freed by not reading my posts could I suggest searching for articles that contain "Koch Brothers" + "Bill Clinton" +  "Democratic Leadership Council"?


Your views of the machinations of the "Kochupus", or the inherent goodness of all Democratic leaders may be altered during the exercise. On the other hand you might gain insight into why some of us are so insistent on supporting those that eschew corporate funding.
Terry

Hefaistos

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #366 on: June 23, 2018, 02:02:13 PM »
The personal problems that Mercouris had, that made him do some misdeeds as a barrister, are, however, totally unrelated to his current position as chief editor at The Duran. I think his analysis of russiophobia is excellent, and great journalism.

Hefaistos, the piece by Mercouris is a fact free opinion piece. Why do you say this is "excellent, and great journalism" ? Just because you agree with his opinion ?

Nowhere in this article do I see any mention of the facts : Of Russia's aggression in Georgia, or in Ukraine, or Russia annexing Crimea, or shooting down MH17, or the Skripal poisoning (other than the mention that Skripal deflected to the west), no mentioning of the Russian bombing of hospitals in Syria, nor of the Russian interference in the US elections (and 26 other countries), no mentioning of Russian support for Assad using chemical weapons, nor any mention of Russia threatening nuclear war with the west.

Any of these are examples of increased Russian aggression, which did not go unnoticed in the free world, and Mercouris ignores all of it.

He then simply asserts "russiophobia" without context. This makes his piece a fact-free, biased piece of pro-Russian propaganda, and yes, in that context it is good to check out the author, where we find out, surprise, surprise, that he is a a columnist of RT, Voice of Russia and russia-insider.com.

You could have known, since consortiumnews.com is on the propornot.com list for repeatedly spreading Russian propaganda.

Rob, that article is a review of a lot of stories comprising British-related parts of Russiagate. It doesn't purport to provide any other evidence than referring to well-known sources such as articles in the Guardian, and other main stream media, etc.
Is the concept of a review article known to you Rob?
Yes, it is good Journalism. It paints the overall picture, it analyzes and explains why the British establishment is blinded by russophobia.
Why do you so often spice up your posts with your hate of Russia? You repeatedly mention totally unrelated things just to display your hate. What has the conflict in Georgia to do with the British russiophobia discussed by the author, e.g.? You immediately place yourself in a sand pit, and start throwing sand around you.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 02:08:58 PM by Hefaistos »

SteveMDFP

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #367 on: June 23, 2018, 04:39:37 PM »

I suspect that such biases may underly the overblown criticism of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton, and many others.


Oh that's plain silly. Not by men and women or LGBTIQ on the left liberal progressive pro-community side of politics - it isn't. The criticisms are obviously always about what they say what they do and what they VOTE in Congress.

Please show us a good piece of journalism which shows that the voting records of Pelosi,  Feinstein, and Hillary Clinton differ from the left liberal progressive side of politics. Because I'm a left liberal progressive voter and I find their voting record to be excellent.

I  *largely* agree.  However, several votes point to both of them being rather hawkish on defense/security/crime issues.  Feinstein more than Pelosi.  However in all the realms that folks here might be most concerned about (environment, health care, taxation/inequality) they're rock-solid progressives.  As a blue state, California could do better, with less-hawkish policy goals.

The disdain for Pelosi, in particular, strikes me as insane.  During her time as Speaker, she was more successful than any predecessor in shepherding progressive legislation through the House.  She may be aging, but she shows no signs of decline. Some of those who say she's too old to lead seem to see no problem quoting the older Chomsky.  Old men can be leaders, but old women can't?

It's true, however, that the prospect of Pelosi as Speaker again drives many on the Right, and a few on the Left, into conniption fits.  That prospect might just drive more Republicans to the  polls in November.  I suspect it would be best if she disavowed any interest in serving as Speaker again.

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #368 on: June 24, 2018, 12:23:10 AM »
Sheldon Wolin died a few years ago, but here is a three hour interview with Chris Hedges. Well worth the time.



And for those who prefer, here is the transcript.

http://www.activatingdemocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Sheldon-Wolin-interviewed-by-Chris-Hedges.pdf


sidd

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #369 on: June 24, 2018, 05:56:19 AM »
Medialens contrasts UK coverage of the world cup with that of 2012 olympics:

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2018/873-enlightened-corners-the-russia-2018-world-cup.html

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #370 on: June 24, 2018, 09:16:12 AM »
Yes, it is good Journalism. It paints the overall picture, it analyzes and explains why the British establishment is blinded by russophobia.
Why do you so often spice up your posts with your hate of Russia? You repeatedly mention totally unrelated things just to display your hate....

I don't hate Russia at all. I hate Russian propaganda. With its denial, its lies, and its blame, and its mind boggling hypocrisy.

Even the word "russophobia" itself is used as propaganda.
It is used as a last (and often only) line of defense against critics of Russia's actions and policies.

This article is spot-on :

https://medium.com/dfrlab/putinatwar-how-russia-weaponized-russophobia-40a3723d26d4
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:28:51 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #371 on: June 28, 2018, 08:57:33 AM »
If you follow ASILurker's references, you will eventually get to what this is all about : Attacks by neo-Nazis of Roma tent settlements in Ukraine, and specifically the last one :
 
Regarding the lethal attack (1 dead) on a Roma camp in Ukraine, has been linked by law enforcement to a popular VKontakte (VK) community called “Sober and Angry Youth” (Твереза та зла молодь Ukrainian, or Трезвая и Злая Молодежь in Russian).

Bellingcat did a really good in-depth investigative piece on this group with 85,000 followers, which appears to be a pan-Slavic neo-Nazi movement that spans across Russia, Ukraine and Serbia :

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/

Ukrainian law enforcement response to these repeated attacks on Roma tent settlements was ridiculously slow, but now that somebody died, they seem to change course. Seven people have been arrested on murder charges :
https://www.rferl.org/a/seven-arrested-for-deadly-attack-on-roma-camp-in-western-ukraine/29316319.html
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 09:23:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #372 on: June 28, 2018, 09:29:12 AM »
"Ukrainian government banning journalists from attending a conference on freedom of speech.
...I have attended at least half a dozen OSCE workshops aimed at achieving similar objectives to this one; namely finding ways to protecting journalists’ safety and create media freedom and pluralism in times of conflict across OSCE states. Held under the auspices of the office of the Representative on Freedom of the Media, the conferences are usually held at the organization’s headquarters in Vienna. I don’t understand why the decision was made to hold the latest one in Kiev."

Paula Slier booted at Ukrainian border.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/431029-slier-ukraine-free-speech/

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #373 on: June 28, 2018, 10:21:42 AM »
Paula Slier booted at Ukrainian border.

That does not surprise me.
Paula Slier has been documented with Russian forces firing GRAD missiles at Ukrainians here :



And she is smiling all the way through it.
Do you honestly think that Ukrainians like that kind of "journalism" ?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 10:30:07 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #374 on: June 29, 2018, 04:38:54 AM »
The NYT produced a very good documentary about the Douma chemical attack that killed at least 34 people, answering the WHO, WHEN, WHAT, WHERE and part of WHY questions with compelling evidence :

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005840873/syria-chlorine-bomb-assad.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&smvar=th-video

Make no mistake about it, folks : These chemical attacks are war crimes, no matter how much Russian propaganda tries to deny they ever happened.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 04:53:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #375 on: June 29, 2018, 04:57:00 AM »
Didn't the NYT prove that Saddam had WMDs?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #376 on: June 29, 2018, 09:34:03 AM »
Didn't the NYT prove that Saddam had WMDs?

Can you indulge us with a link ?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #377 on: July 08, 2018, 08:48:52 PM »
Greenwald on the bankruptcy of MSNBC:

"NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics. The network is filled with former Generals and CIA officials who are part of the community that pioneered these smear tactics of accusing journalists and critics they dislike of being traitors, spies and Kremlin loyalists. Indeed, Nance sometimes appears on MSNBC along with former CIA Director John Brennan, who MSNBC also hired as an “analyst.” This is who they are."

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/08/msnbc-does-not-merely-permit-fabrications-against-democratic-party-critics-it-encourages-and-rewards-them/

Goes on to lambast Howard Dean and the Democratic Party; includes the link to Lee Fang expose to Dean lobbying:

https://theintercept.com/2016/01/21/howard-dean-despite-denials-has-long-sad-history-of-selling-himself-on-k-street/

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #378 on: July 10, 2018, 02:06:46 AM »
Greenwald on the bankruptcy of MSNBC:

"NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics. The network is filled with former Generals and CIA officials who are part of the community that pioneered these smear tactics of accusing journalists and critics they dislike of being traitors, spies and Kremlin loyalists. Indeed, Nance sometimes appears on MSNBC along with former CIA Director John Brennan, who MSNBC also hired as an “analyst.” This is who they are."

https://theintercept.com/2018/07/08/msnbc-does-not-merely-permit-fabrications-against-democratic-party-critics-it-encourages-and-rewards-them/

Wrong thread. This is not about smear journalists. Greenwald is neither good nor bad. He is just an angry useful idiot with an axe to grind (if not worse). His recent fame is for his smear of Hillary and his effective Trump campaign collusion.

So poor Mr. Greenwald finds one (1) wrong statement by Malcolm Nance in 2016 and writes a whole long article about it in 2018. Looking suspicious, no?

While Stein did indeed have no show on RT (as Nance wrongly stated), there was another show hosted by RT: The U.S. Greens Party presidential debate. LMAO...
https://thinkprogress.org/jill-stein-campaign-russia-ecf424ac3b7e/

Quoth https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/7/8/1778987/-Greenwald-Smears-Nance-MSNBC-Dems-to-Stand-Up-For-Russia-Stein
Quote
Greenwald Smears Nance, MSNBC, Dems in Order to Stand Up For Russia, Stein
(...)

Greenwald must have learned something from his frequent stints on Fox, because he then compares Nance to Joe McCarthy, says “NBC News and MSNBC have essentially merged with the CIA and intelligence community and thus use their tactics” (his entire body of proof? NBC/MSNBC has hired John Brennan and a few military and intelligence officials as paid experts) and broadens his attacks on the Democratic Party as a whole, citing Howard Dean’s “secret” associations with corporate interests to “prove” that the Dems are coordinating false attacks on our wonderful brothers and sisters in the Kremlin to advance their own aims.

What do I say to all of this? Fuck you, Glenn Greenwald, you useful and willing tool of the Kremlin. Fuck you for undermining the Clinton campaign in 2016, and fuck you for your upcoming attempts to undermine the Dems in 2018. Fuck you sideways.
and fuck "your" fucken Pulitzer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 02:25:43 AM by Martin Gisser »

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #379 on: July 10, 2018, 04:55:46 AM »
ASILurker,

We should freeze Kissinger's brain so someday we can download it. Imagine the skeletons in that closet! Who killed JFK, AIDS was a CIA plot, 9/11...

There's plenty of time to develop some amazing technology before we run out of natural resources.
I found the book "What Technology Wants" by Kevin Kelly had some good insights into where our technology is going. I'm not saying technology is going to save civilization from a big collapse but we aren't going extinct because of technology like genetic engineering.
If you are into social trends he has some good statistics here:
http://kk.org/extrapolations/
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

sidd

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #380 on: July 10, 2018, 05:27:06 AM »
Re: Wrong thread

Mr. Buddy began the thread, i will defer to his opinion. Or, if Neven has strong feelings, to him.

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Martin Gisser

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #381 on: July 10, 2018, 01:44:28 PM »
Re: Wrong thread
That was with tongue in cheek

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #382 on: July 23, 2018, 08:55:04 PM »
I guess when Maria allowed Larry Kudlow (Donnies chief economic advisor) to OPENLY LIE ABOUT GROWTH in the USA .... that wasn't enough for Maria Bartoromo.  She has to jump on the Sean Hannity Lying Train with both feet.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/22/bartiromo_is_it_high_time_we_admit_the_obama_administration_spied_on_the_gop_presidential_nominee.html

Now she says:  "Is It High Time We Admit the Obama Administration Spied On the GOP Presidential Nominee?"  Of course, she was interviewing Donald Trump's favorite TV lawyer, Alan Dershowitz.

Either FOX needs to hire Alex Jones (bat shit crazy of Infowars) OR ..... Alex needs to go to work for FOX.  Because FOX and InfoWars are on the same path these days.

 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #383 on: July 24, 2018, 12:28:05 AM »
Re: Wrong thread

Mr. Buddy began the thread, i will defer to his opinion. Or, if Neven has strong feelings, to him

How about we remove "Russiagate And" from the title? What say you, Buddy?
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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #384 on: July 24, 2018, 12:36:16 AM »
I’m flexible ..... fine with me.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: RussiaGate And The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #385 on: July 24, 2018, 08:22:18 AM »

Either FOX needs to hire Alex Jones (bat shit crazy of Infowars) OR ..... Alex needs to go to work for FOX.  Because FOX and InfoWars are on the same path these days.

 
Not even close- Alex is so way far gone. Doesn't mean he isn't right once in a while.

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #386 on: July 26, 2018, 09:18:44 PM »
Unfortunately, comedy is cutting rather close to the bone these days. The best reporting is coming from our late night guys (clips mostly won't cross the pond). https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/republicans-accuse-rosenstein-of-secretly-plotting-to-uphold-constitution
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Satire from The Borowitz Report
Republicans Accuse Rosenstein of Secretly Plotting to Uphold Constitution

By Andy Borowitz

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—House Republicans on Thursday accused the Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, of “secretly and nefariously” implementing a plot to uphold the United States Constitution.

In a joint press conference, Representatives Mark Meadows, of North Carolina, and Jim Jordan, of Ohio, said that they had “ample evidence” that Rosenstein was prepared to protect the Constitution “by any and all means at his disposal.”

“There is only one way to describe Rosenstein’s obsession with putting the Constitution before all other concerns,” Meadows said. “Conflict of interest.”

“It is almost as if Rod Rosenstein had taken some kind of solemn oath to defend a centuries-old document,” Jordan said. “This should make every American very, very scared.”

Though the Republicans have shelved their articles of impeachment against Rosenstein for now, they hope that their impeachment threat will send a clear message to Rosenstein that his reckless allegiance to the Constitution will no longer be tolerated.

“If, going forward, Rosenstein uses his position at the Department of Justice to seek justice, he will be crossing a red line,” Meadows said.

Buddy

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #387 on: July 27, 2018, 06:16:03 PM »
A good start ....

Facebook also removes 4 Infowars videos, including one it previously cleared

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/facebook-removes-4-infowars-videos-071703333.html


.... but clearly much further to go.  You can't allow sites like InfoWars and FOX News to exist, WHEN YOU KNOW THEY BLATENTLY LIE.


I would LOVE an HONEST "conservative" network news show.  But I am NOT talking about a "lobbyist news show" like FOX.

Humanity has a LONG WAY TO GO.  And we need to get rid of mind numbing, lying media like InfoWars and FOX News.

FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #388 on: July 28, 2018, 09:40:20 AM »
I agree, but who gets to decide what is censured and what not? Companies like Facebook and Twitter? What if Rupert Murdoch buys them and they start censuring the stuff that you love?
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #389 on: July 31, 2018, 09:23:36 PM »
Chomsky on media failure:

"Instead, what’s being—there is a focus on what I believe are marginalia."

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/7/27/noam_chomsky_on_mass_media_obsession

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #390 on: August 01, 2018, 05:14:52 AM »
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-vs-the-times-inside-an-off-the-record-meeting

Quote
Trump vs. the Times: Inside an Off-the-Record Meeting, David Remnick, 30 July

On July 20th, the new publisher of the Times, A. G. Sulzberger, visited the Oval Office at the invitation of President Trump. The meeting was meant to be off the record. As a matter of policy, Dean Baquet, the executive editor of the Times, will not attend such meetings without being able to report on them. Instead, Sulzberger went to the session accompanied by James Bennet, the editorial-page editor. The meeting, which Trump clearly intended as a way both to introduce himself to Sulzberger and to complain about coverage, became, in the course of more than an hour, something a great deal more revealing.
....
Not surprisingly, Trump took up much of the seventy-five-minute session extolling his accomplishments, real and imagined. He also wanted to sell Sulzberger and Bennet, to explain to them just why he was so critical of the press and routinely brands the “failing” Times and so many other outlets as “fake news.”

.... “fake news” first entered the language in the late nineteenth century; it came to the fore most recently as a way of describing fabricated stories, not a few of them engineered for profit in Russia and other foreign countries. Trump adopted the phrase for his own purposes during the 2016 campaign and has deployed it as a weapon in his broader attempt to delegitimize the news outlets—the Times, the Washington Post, CNN, and many more—that he views as political adversaries, and to create a kind of parallel universe of “alternative facts” and realities.

During the Oval Office discussion, Sulzberger pointed out to Trump that foreign leaders, particularly authoritarians and despots, have taken up Trump’s language and angle of attack. And the reason is not hard to discern: autocrats from Manila to Yangon, Ankara to Caracas, Beijing to Moscow, have found it advantageous to point out that even the President of a country that gave primacy to freedom of speech and the press in its Constitution disdains the news media as “fake.”

Last year, the Chinese state news agency denied a report that police had tortured Xie Yang, a human-rights activist, as “essentially fake news.” The Syrian President, Bashar al-Assad, denied an Amnesty International report on the thousands of people who died in a military prison between 2011 and 2015 by telling Yahoo News, “You can forge anything these days. We are living in a fake-news era.” U Kyaw San Hla, a top security official in Rakhine State, in Myanmar, denied ethnic cleansing in the country, insisting, “There is no such thing as Rohingya. It is fake news.” (Two Reuters journalists who exposed the killings of ten Rohingya are currently on trial in Myanmar and face up to fourteen years in prison.) In Venezuela, President Nicolás Maduro went on the Russian state channel RT and declared that “Venezuela is being exposed to bullying by the world media besieging us. . . . This is what we call ‘fake news’ today, isn’t it?” After the Cambodian government put journalists in prison, expelled Radio Free Asia, and closed dozens of radio stations and the Cambodia Daily, Prime Minister Hun Sen went on the offensive against critical coverage in the West, saying, “I would like to send a message to the President that your attack on CNN is right. American media is very bad.”
....
The Times publisher told the President that he was even more concerned about Trump branding the press as “enemies of the people”—a phrase used by the Jacobins in eighteenth-century France and by Stalin at the height of the Great Purge, in the late nineteen-thirties. (When Nikita Khrushchev denounced Stalin, in the fifties, he said that “the formula ‘enemy of the people’ was specifically introduced for the purpose of physically annihilating such individuals.”) Sulzberger argued that the use of such a phrase was inflammatory, dangerous to journalists both in the United States and abroad. Journalists were getting threats, he told the President. Some news outlets were posting armed guards at their offices. Journalists abroad were being imprisoned, murdered. To inflame that situation with such rhetoric was a true danger, a match lowered to a tinderbox. Sulzberger pressed this point twice, both in the middle of the session and toward the end.

Strikingly, Trump did not argue and at least pretended to take it onboard. He did not apologize, by any stretch, but he tried to get across the possibility that he would think about it.
....
The problem is that Trump’s assault on the press has been remarkably effective. He is by no means the first President to resent or attack the press. ... But none has ever waged battle with the press so obsessively. Trump’s ferocious attacks at rallies and on social media give a direction and a language to his amplifying outlets: Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, the Drudge Report, Breitbart, and countless trolls online.

Trump’s capacity to create alternative and polarizing realities, to divert attention from his failures and scandals, to inflame his opponents, and to foment a general atmosphere of culture war and mutual recrimination is perhaps his greatest political talent. ...

Steve Bannon, once Trump’s chief ideologist, put the matter well earlier this year when he told Michael Lewis, “We got elected on Drain the Swamp, Lock Her Up, Build a Wall,” he said. “This was pure anger. Anger and fear is what gets people to the polls.” Bannon added, “The Democrats don’t matter. The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit.

... as the crowd booed the reporters, Trump added the Orwellian finisher: “What you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening.”

Quote
... dying newspaper industry. No matter how much they try to distract and cover it up, our country is making great progress under my leadership and I will never stop fighting for the American people! As an example, the failing New York Times ...

... and the Amazon Washington Post do nothing but write bad stories even on very positive achievements - and they will never change!

Sound familiar?

TerryM

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #391 on: August 01, 2018, 11:22:19 AM »
It's all OK as long as I can continue to refer to Fox News as Faux News.  :)
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #392 on: August 03, 2018, 07:56:33 PM »
America's Finest News Source:

"We in the news media despised you imbeciles long before Trump, and we’ll despise you long after he’s gone."

"Mr. Trump believes the press is too critical of him. No fucking shit. We are critical of everyone who is not us. The press hates you. All of you. We are what you deserve."

https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-proudly-stands-with-the-media-as-the-enemy-1828068740

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #393 on: August 04, 2018, 01:12:06 PM »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #394 on: August 04, 2018, 01:36:27 PM »
Jimmy Dore goes full-on on RT
Hahaaaaahahaha... now he's officially a Russian agent!

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #395 on: August 07, 2018, 10:08:32 AM »
YouTube has removed Alex Jones' page, following bans earlier Monday from Apple and Facebook.

The Alex Jones Channel, which counts 2.4 million subscribers, still appeared in YouTube search results by midday Monday, but presented only a take-down notice when users clicked in.

"This account has been terminated for violating YouTube's Community Guidelines," the notice said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/youtube-removes-alex-jones-account-following-earlier-bans.html

It's a start.
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Let's not waste either.

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #396 on: August 07, 2018, 11:18:04 AM »
YouTube has removed Alex Jones' page, following bans earlier Monday from Apple and Facebook.

The Alex Jones Channel, which counts 2.4 million subscribers, still appeared in YouTube search results by midday Monday, but presented only a take-down notice when users clicked in.

"This account has been terminated for violating YouTube's Community Guidelines," the notice said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/youtube-removes-alex-jones-account-following-earlier-bans.html

It's a start.

Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #397 on: August 07, 2018, 12:46:07 PM »
Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.

Yes, when you allow corporations to decide what is permissible discourse and what not, which alternative media source is next? If your judicial system isn't able to cope with the excesses coming out of extreme fringes, do you really think these extreme fringes will disappear by shutting down their ways of communicating? You're only making them stronger because it's the wrong thing to do. You have to counter their information with better information, and let the judicial system take care of the rest (harassing etc).

The Young Turks and Kyle Kulinski weigh in:



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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #398 on: August 07, 2018, 02:31:24 PM »
Alex is a crazy ass. Saying that- this is a start to fascism. Slippery slope.

Yes, when you allow corporations to decide what is permissible discourse and what not, which alternative media source is next?

YouTube is a privately-owned platform.  They get to decide what is allowed to be on their platform.  Anyone who doesn't like it can seek out some capital to start their own video hosting site.  There are alternatives already.

You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #399 on: August 07, 2018, 03:33:10 PM »
YouTube is a privately-owned platform.  They get to decide what is allowed to be on their platform.

I don't know, Steve. The service that YouTube offers is more than just a service. It's a public service that amounts to an agora, you know, the place where ancient Greek citizens would gather to discuss stuff. Now imagine that agora was owned by some rich aristocrat who suddenly decides: Socrates is no longer allowed to speak here. No, I'm not saying Alex Jones is Socrates, (although Socrates allegedly was a PITA in his own way  ;) ), but it's about the principle.

Quote
Anyone who doesn't like it can seek out some capital to start their own video hosting site.  There are alternatives already.

So, who has the most money, decides? That's what you're saying, boils down to.

Quote
You think government should force YouTube to permit all comers, regardless of what the platform owners want?  Wouldn't that be fascist?

So, if YouTube would shun gays or black people from its website, and the government wouldn't allow it, would that be fascist? Again, it's a matter of principle. It's too simple to say, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, they're companies and they can do as they please. For that their service is too important to the public.

Never mind that this just reinforces the idea that there is an establishment narrative, and deviating from it, means you get shunned from public discourse. It's far from a solution.

You're probably not aware of it, Steve, but I've just read your comment a couple of times now, and you're actually saying really dangerous things.
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