Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 84629 times)

Hefaistos

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 130
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #550 on: October 26, 2018, 06:19:44 AM »
Rob, you really touch my heart with your crusade against anything written on sites that for some reason or other are on a Atlantic council/NATO list called propornot.

No, we cannot think for ourselves!
No, we aren't capable of critical analysis!
Yes, we are misled by Russian propaganda!
Yes, our souls have to be saved!

Thanks Rob! You really are our white knight.

Hefaistos

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 130
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #551 on: October 26, 2018, 09:51:58 AM »
The article that found out the backers behind propornot:

" Propornot is a product of the Atlantic Council’s backers.  It is a symptom of the ongoing Information War.  People in the groups behind it are waging to destroy Press Freedom in the US by branding dissenting voices as objects of ridicule at best and enemies of the state at the worst."

https://off-guardian.org/2018/05/22/propornot-2-setting-up-the-atlantic-council-for-lawsuits/

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #552 on: October 26, 2018, 09:55:29 AM »
Rob, you really touch my heart with your crusade against anything written on sites that for some reason or other are on a Atlantic council/NATO list called propornot.

No, we cannot think for ourselves!
No, we aren't capable of critical analysis!
Yes, we are misled by Russian propaganda!
Yes, our souls have to be saved!

Thanks Rob! You really are our white knight.

I would think that :

- Yes, you can think for yourself, and
- Yes, you are capable of critical analysis, and
- No, you will not be misled by Russian propaganda.

Can you do that, Hefaistos ?
For example, in this report by the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) :



In this report, can you think for yourself, and apply some critical analysis, and ignore the Russian propaganda, and then show us where the MoD went into conspiracy theory territory ?

Hint : I discussed the observations here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg173899.html#msg173899

And if you still believe that the Russian MoD was truthful here, it should be easy for you to debunk my arguments.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Hefaistos

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 130
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #553 on: October 27, 2018, 07:43:02 AM »
Rob, Bellingcat got those photos from their Ukrainian sources, the Russian MoD claims there is photoshopping going on in quite a few of them. I don't see that Russian MoD presents conspiracy theories, they present some facts on where the BUK that fired on MH17 was (in Ukraine) and some good criticism of a lot of photo evidence given to Bellingcat by some Ukrainians.
It's a task for the MH17 investigation to deal with these facts and informations. I hope they will do it objectively, and neutrally, and without having to yield to pressures from the Ukrainian side, as they have a veto on what's presented in the reports.

I also hope that Bellingcat will become more open and scientifically minded in the way they treat 'evidence'.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 07:50:10 AM by Hefaistos »

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #554 on: October 27, 2018, 08:55:41 AM »
Quote
Bellingcat got those photos from their Ukrainian sources,

It is likely that Ukrainians made the videos and pictures of the MH17 BUK, because...well...it happened in Ukraine. Duh. Would be weird if a guy from Zimbabwe would post a video.

Quote
I don't see that Russian MoD presents conspiracy theories, they present some facts on where the BUK that fired on MH17 was (in Ukraine) and some good criticism of a lot of photo evidence given to Bellingcat by some Ukrainians.

Yes. This is where I ask you to THINK FOR YOURSELF.
I addressed the MoD claims here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg173899.html#msg173899
I think it is now the third time I post this, but you don't respond to it...

Quote
It's a task for the MH17 investigation to deal with these facts and informations. I hope they will do it objectively, and neutrally,

They did, and they find the same thing Bellingcat found 4 years ago : That this BUK that shot down MH17 is a BUK from the 53rd Brigade in Kursk.

Quote
and without having to yield to pressures from the Ukrainian side, as they have a veto on what's presented in the reports.
No. Ukraine does not have a veto on what's presented.
You're making this up.

Quote
I also hope that Bellingcat will become more open and scientifically minded in the way they treat 'evidence'.

Bellingcat has already put every piece of evidence they used out there in the open, for anyone to verify and argue with. They are more open than ANY other news source out there.

But you do not even dare to argue with the evidence, Hefaistos.
You just repeat Russian talking points blindly.

That tells me you either do not think for yourself and prefer to just parrot Russian propaganda blindly, or you do not want to argue with the evidence, since you know that you are wrong.

Either way it is a disappointing response from a self-declared PhD from Sweden.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 09:06:53 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

NevB

  • New ice
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 93
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #555 on: October 27, 2018, 01:20:02 PM »
This is the tactic I see too often:

Fox News Is the Tarp on the MAGA Van

If both sides are to blame for the state of political discourse, then neither side can be said to be truly responsible. “We’re at a point where these two parties, these two warring factions inside our polity, owe each other an apology,” Fox News political editor Chris Stirewalt told Dana Perino.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/cesar-sayoc-fox-news-trump-fanaticism.html

When your a thief, liar, sponsor of international assassination,  pussy grabbing president or murderous dictator making people believe others are no better seems to be working.

Today Goebbels would be just an ordinary political operative.





Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #556 on: October 28, 2018, 03:31:30 PM »
FOX has been on the “wrong side” of the following issues for the last two or more decades:

1). Gun control:  FOX continues to support putting as many guns in the hands of citizens as they can.  They don’t want registration, they don’t want regulation of assault rifles, they don’t want regulation of large gun magazines, they don’t want regulation of the mentally ill to get guns.  The continued high level of killings by those with guns, is because of the NRA and support for it from FOX and politicians.

2). Global warming:  Once again, FOX couldn’t give a rats ass about science, facts, and the truth.  FOX is responsible for lying about global warming .... and providing a megaphone for those that deny global warming is occurring and is caused by humans burning of fossil fuels.

3). FOX promotes racism:  Sein Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, etc are openly racists. 

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US. 
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #557 on: October 28, 2018, 04:43:13 PM »
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

mostly_lurking

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 18
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #558 on: October 28, 2018, 05:39:40 PM »

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US.

CNN,MSNBC  :P

NevB

  • New ice
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 93
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #559 on: October 29, 2018, 01:09:39 AM »

When the US wakes up, they will understand that the three biggest problems they face are in large part because you have a media company masquerading as a news company, that has been promoting HORRIBLE policies for the US.

CNN,MSNBC  :P

There it is a good example of what I just said:

"If both sides are to blame for the state of political discourse, then neither side can be said to be truly responsible. "

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #560 on: October 29, 2018, 03:08:48 AM »
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Yet another Bellingcat smearing article. And look ! This one is about some tweets from Higgins that are from 2013/2014 !

I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".

Incidentally, who is "we" in your claim ? Does anyone else here think that Zizek has a point ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #561 on: October 29, 2018, 04:48:30 AM »
Europol has started a project to stop child abuse, and bring perpetrators to justice, by crowdsourcing the tracing of objects shown on child abuse pictures :

https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse

Quote
The most innocent clues can sometimes help crack a case. The objects are all taken from the background of an image with sexually explicit material involving minors. For all images below, every other investigative avenue has already been examined. Therefore we are requesting  your assistance in identifying the origin of some of these objects. We are convinced that more eyes will lead to more leads and will ultimately help to save these children.

This is an entirely new form of journalism / criminal investigations :
crowd-sourced and for a great cause.

Bellingcat started a project to document and organize responses to these Europol requests :
https://checkmedia.org/bellingcat/project/741

Personally, I've been spending some time trying to geo-locate these picture from Europol :



The question is : Which city is this ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #562 on: October 29, 2018, 07:00:17 AM »
The apartments in the left-top of the picture have a similar style to the apartments in the Tai Tam (Hong Kong suburb), and the hills kind of match the Shenzhen/Hong Kong skyline. But I can't get a solid geo-location yet...
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Red

  • Guest
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #563 on: October 29, 2018, 10:28:11 AM »
PURPOSE GOES TO LATIN AMERICA [PART I]

 “How do global powers orchestrate destabilisation and war? And how are propaganda constructs like the White Helmets brought to life? The only way to even begin to answer those questions is to follow the money, analyse the networks and interrogate the messaging. In ‘Purpose goes to Latin America’ Cory Morningstar show how New Power exponents like Jeremy Heimans operate through elite networks, with seemingly endless incubations, to shape and capitalise upon ongoing destabilisation/humanitarian war/regime change. We are shown how Heimans and his networks are most concerned with the economics of behaviour change, attention metrics and shaping public narratives framed as giving “consumers” “opportunities to shape their own future”. We are shown how New Power exponents are socially engineering consent for the endless consumer economy, but sell themselves as pioneers of ‘change’ and builders of social movements for ‘the people’ when clearly it is neoliberal forces that call the tune. Morningstar’s explication of the networks, funders, and talking points being deployed shows that the very same New Power exponents who delivered for the global elites in Syria are preparing to deliver more of the same in Latin America.”— Australian activist, Wrong Kind of Green Collective, Michael Swifte

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/purpose-goes-to-latin-america-part-i/



PURPOSE GOES TO LATIN AMERICA [PART II]

In part one of the report Purpose Goes to Latin America ( August 8, 2018) I demonstrated how global powers orchestrate destabilization, war, economic and imperial domination via the facilitation of NGOs that comprise the non-profit industrial complex. Specifically, I looked at how this successful strategy is unveiling itself in Latin America. I explored “New Power” as a new instrument of hegemony, whereby New Power exponents when mobilized, can be successfully manipulated to serve neoliberal forces in ways never before achievable.

I disclosed the fact that Purpose (the for-profit PR arm of Avaaz) has set up in Latin America with campaigns and projects underway in Brazil and Columbia. This is not a coincidence. In the ongoing destabilization effort being waged against Venezuela, Columbia is being used as a base to launch further aggression. [August 9, 2018: Colombia Can Not Lend Itself to a Foreign Intervention against Venezuela] Consider Purpose “movements” are not decrying the more than 300 assassinations of Colombian leaders over the last two years [Source], rather they are organizing Concordia Summits to facilitate an advancing privatization in Columbia (and the world at large), as they court right wing politicians  and oligarchs.  This can best be described as “power in white face”.

“In the presence of the so-called White Helmets on the border with the brother country, the first-class treatment given by the Colombian government to conspirators and provocateurs… While we condemn and denounce these grotesque maneuvers, we alert our people, the progressive and democratic peoples and governments of Latin America, the Caribbean and the world, not to allow more interference with sovereign Venezuela… Colombia can not lend itself to a foreign intervention against Venezuela. Our continent is a zone of peace and we must not allow ourselves to be deprived of that right.” — August 9, 2018:  Colombia Can Not Lend Itself to a Foreign Intervention against Venezuela [Emphasis added]


http://www.theartofannihilation.com/purpose-goes-to-latin-america-part-ii/

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4984
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 387
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #564 on: October 30, 2018, 07:08:43 AM »
Hedges interviews Ford from the black agenda report, very keen expose of diversity as a weapon in the fight between the new and old fascism. I will watch it carefully again.

I see a warning on youtube under the clip that RT is funded by the Russian government. I see no similar warning on BBC clips that the BBC  is also funded by the UK government, or on NBC clips which tell me that NBC is controlled by one Brian Roberts of Comcast or ...

We have, of course, always been at war with EastAsia.



sidd



zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #565 on: October 31, 2018, 11:38:45 PM »
Hey Rob,

It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Yet another Bellingcat smearing article. And look ! This one is about some tweets from Higgins that are from 2013/2014 !

I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".

Incidentally, who is "we" in your claim ? Does anyone else here think that Zizek has a point ?

What the fuck Rob? Bellingcat's entire shtick is his ability to uncover "truths" through social media. And when somebody was feeding him a narrative that suited him, he didn't bother to do any vetting whatsoever.  He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.  And your response.... is.... uhhhhh..... it happened four years ago... The only thing he's supposed to be good at, deciphering online bullshit, he failed miserably at. And you don't find that the least bit disturbing?

But you're right. This happened four years ago. Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women. All water under the bridge. We all make mistakes right?

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #566 on: November 01, 2018, 05:49:25 AM »
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 06:48:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #567 on: November 01, 2018, 07:00:52 AM »
Europol has started a project to stop child abuse, and bring perpetrators to justice, by crowdsourcing the tracing of objects shown on child abuse pictures :

https://www.europol.europa.eu/stopchildabuse

Quote
The most innocent clues can sometimes help crack a case. The objects are all taken from the background of an image with sexually explicit material involving minors. For all images below, every other investigative avenue has already been examined. Therefore we are requesting  your assistance in identifying the origin of some of these objects. We are convinced that more eyes will lead to more leads and will ultimately help to save these children.

This is an entirely new form of journalism / criminal investigations :
crowd-sourced and for a great cause.

Bellingcat started a project to document and organize responses to these Europol requests :
https://checkmedia.org/bellingcat/project/741

Personally, I've been spending some time trying to geo-locate these picture from Europol :



The question is : Which city is this ?

We already suspected that this was the Shenzhen area :

The apartments in the left-top of the picture have a similar style to the apartments in the Tai Tam (Hong Kong suburb), and the hills kind of match the Shenzhen/Hong Kong skyline. But I can't get a solid geo-location yet...

The power of crowd-sourcing open-source investigations shows its resolve :

A guy called Olli Enne found the location of this picture sent out by Europol
https://twitter.com/Olli_Enne/status/1057387644810919936

Quote
Hello Europol. Im quite sure i found it. 21km north from Shenzhen.   22° 43.375'N  114° 3.192'E   Hills ok, rooftop ok, surrounding buildings ok, road ok, blue roof ok, arch house background ok, larger houses ok.  I would say 99,9%. Please confirm that you look in to this one?



He NAILED it !!
And verified by some of the Bellingcat guys :
https://twitter.com/Olli_Enne/status/1057388543985770497

Here is the street view, where you can see the matching buildings and tree lining, and the blue road sign etc etc.

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701307018S&panotype=street&heading=80.6&pitch=-0.56&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701307018S

The building from which the Europol picture was taken is this one :

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701043658S&panotype=street&heading=167.37&pitch=42.48&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701043658S

Whatever you think of open source investigations and Bellingcat, you gotta admit this is some pretty awesome detective work !!
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 196
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #568 on: November 01, 2018, 03:06:23 PM »
  Perhaps the outcomes of such investigations should be undertaken by official Law enforcement officers and kept private, lest issues arise about unfair trials due to media info being placed all over the internet and on the nightly news? 

A rational concern.  But when law enforcement specifically requests the help of the public in solving a crime, what, we should refuse to assist?

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #569 on: November 02, 2018, 06:02:55 AM »
Yet here you are posting this: Here is the street view, where you can see the matching buildings and tree lining, and the blue road sign etc etc.

https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701307018S&panotype=street&heading=80.6&pitch=-0.56&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701307018S

The building from which the Europol picture was taken is this one :
https://maps.baidu.com/#panoid=09005700121709171701043658S&panotype=street&heading=167.37&pitch=42.48&l=4&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09005700121709171701043658S

The home of an accused pedophile I hear you say? Is that correct? Perhaps the outcomes of such investigations should be undertaken by official Law enforcement officers and kept private, lest issues arise about unfair trials due to media info being placed all over the internet and on the nightly news?

Not that any "accused" person could ever be deemed innocent, right? Or lest some crazed right wing nutjob decided she might want to target an online commenter who was promoting the clinton and democrats 24/7 with a new pipe bomb - gosh there are some crazy nutters out there, right?

Besides why would anyone care if their privacy was breached on the internet unless they were already GUILTY of something ? :) 

( yeah, I'm shaking my head in disbelief, still )

Look at it this way : If you take dirty pictures of minors you committed a crime.
You no longer have any right to privacy after you take such pictures.

In the US we have a database of these guys, with their addresses publicly available.
In China, not that much yet.

Besides, all that "open source" investigation did was identify the location of the scene of the crime.
We still don't know who actually were the perpetrators, but maybe this work would bring Europol one step closer to solving this crime.

And you have to admit that the geo-location in this case was an example of some truly awesome detective work.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 06:08:02 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #570 on: November 02, 2018, 06:48:08 AM »
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #571 on: November 02, 2018, 07:51:12 AM »
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D

Is that jealousy I hear, Neven ?

Yes, I want to invent bread too!
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #572 on: November 02, 2018, 07:57:04 AM »
When is Bellingcat going to post recipes, so we can all go: OMG, they invented bread!  ;D

Is that jealousy I hear, Neven ?

Yes, I want to invent bread too!

Well, there is a thing called "open source" investigation. It's using material that is available to everyone to find out the truth about what happened.
Bellingcat is really good at that, and I think you can learn from them.
They just announced a set of new workshops here :

https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/events/2018/11/01/new-bellingcat-workshops-announced-berlin-london-washington-amsterdam/

Would you care to join one of these workshops ?
I'd even pay for your attendance.

I think it is important that you are aware of how this new form of journalism works and why it is so successful in separating the truth from the lies.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #573 on: November 02, 2018, 08:05:38 AM »
Sure, it's interesting in itself, but it's also a bit of a hype, a hype that serves a purpose.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #574 on: November 02, 2018, 08:18:20 AM »
Sure, it's interesting in itself, but it's also a bit of a hype, a hype that serves a purpose.

I know you think there is some alternative motive here, but why don't you give it a try ?
You may be surprised by what you find.
 
Again, I'll pay for your attendance to the workshop.

I think it is important enough for a journalist of your statue to understand the concept of "open source" investigations and why it is so successful in separating truth from lies.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #575 on: November 02, 2018, 08:45:13 AM »
And Neven, please realize that with or without you, "open source" investigations are going to take over much of investigative journalism in the years to come.

For example, the BBC exposing the location, timing and perpetrators of a hideous murder in Cameroon is just an example :

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-45681690

https://www.journalism.co.uk/video/how-to-get-started-with-open-source-investigations-from-the-bbc-team-behind-cameroon-anatomy-of-a-killing/s400/a728268/
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #576 on: November 02, 2018, 09:02:00 AM »
I know you think there is some alternative motive here, but why don't you give it a try ?
You may be surprised by what you find.

I've translated that Bellingcat documentary, and so watched it four times (I'm actually working on the final versionright now). I've learned a lot about the people behind Bellingcat, and I'll share my views at some point in the Russia thread. As soon as I have some more time.
 
Quote
I think it is important enough for a journalist of your statue to understand the concept of "open source" investigations and why it is so successful in separating truth from lies.

Thanks, Rob, but I'm not a journalist of any statue. I'm just a guy who follows Arctic sea ice, and I write about it as an activist, fueled by a certain world view. That world view cannot be taught in a workshop. It takes a life to develop, and 'open source' journalism can't do much to influence it, because I try to base it on universal principles, not on worldly events, or an interpretation thereof.

My time is limited, so if I were to do a workshop, it would be about soil health or sustainable building, or things like statistics or coding.

I'm sure the workshops are useful, but I'm also pretty certain there are hundreds of professionals who have been doing what Bellingcat is doing for years. Bread has already been invented, and the reason it is so hyped up, is because the public has lost trust in the media (and rightly so). Bellingcat is now being promoted to fill that gap, with clear help of large institutions behind the scenes. And for some target groups, desperate for a conventional 'truth' that everyone must unite behind, it seems to be working very well. But it doesn't solve anything whatsoever, because it doesn't get at the root of things. It's a decoy.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #577 on: November 02, 2018, 09:21:25 PM »
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.



Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?

Did you not read the article at all?

Bellincat literally tweeted asking people to follow ShamiWitness
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women. It's at the beginning of the article for christ sake.
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

The evidence is clear as day. What is wrong with you? Does your mind just turn off when you read about anything that doesn't serve your narrative? Or is your mind just always turned off?

Mark Ames, noted Russian propaghandist...... Jesus Christ. 

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #578 on: November 03, 2018, 03:52:31 AM »
He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.

Eliot did nothing like that, and neither was the guy an "ISIS recruiter".

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member that was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy, and neither was he an ISIS member, and I have not seen any tweet where he was tweeting about raping captured Kurdish women.

Look, zizek, all that Eliot did here was mention the guy's twitter name in some 5 tweets back in 2013/2014. That's it.

The rest you fabricated out of thin air, for which you have ZERO evidence.

Just stick to the facts, bro, and stop reading and posting Russian propaganda and lies.

And besides, what did Bellingcat or Eliot Higgins ever do wrong to you to deserve this kind of fact-free smearing ?

Did you not read the article at all?

Bellincat literally tweeted asking people to follow ShamiWitness

I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.
That was another guy, Charles Lister :



But even if ShamiWitness was recommended as a source of jihadi news in a tweet or two, its a really long stretch to "He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Mark Ames REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to smear Eliot and Bellingcat with this, but only finds, what is it, FIVE (5) tweets from Eliot (out of Eliot's 220,000 tweets over the past 4 years) where this guys is even mentioned.

So Eliot was not that close to this guy. In fact, he lists him as being a "parrot" of ISIS :



Quote
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women.

I see one tweet there, but it doesn't say anything about raping Kurdish women.

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

Is he ? You have a link to that ?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 04:03:19 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4984
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 387
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #579 on: November 03, 2018, 06:28:46 AM »
Democrat faith in media at highest since records were taken:

"Democrats' trust surged last year and is now at 76%, the highest in Gallup's trend by party, based on available data since 1997."

That's no surprise, but here's another that's no surprise: Kids believe less than old folk:

"In the current survey, 53% of those aged 65 and older trust in the media, compared with just 33% of those under age 30. "

https://news.gallup.com/poll/243665/media-trust-continues-recover-2016-low.aspx

sidd

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #580 on: November 03, 2018, 11:46:04 AM »

I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.
That was another guy, Charles Lister :




uhhhh. it looks like you missed these two tweets:





#FF means Follow Friday. It says right there in the article. The article you keep forgetting to read.


But even if ShamiWitness was recommended as a source of jihadi news in a tweet or two, its a really long stretch to "He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Mark Ames REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to smear Eliot and Bellingcat with this, but only finds, what is it, FIVE (5) tweets from Eliot (out of Eliot's 220,000 tweets over the past 4 years) where this guys is even mentioned.

So Eliot was not that close to this guy. In fact, he lists him as being a "parrot" of ISIS :



This highlights Bellincats methodology. He doesn't even bother for cursory vetting for his sources. Instead he just finds whatever information serves his narrative. And when his sources end up being garbage, which they often do (see: no vetting, no journalist rigor), he just goes "oopsies". Actually, he doesn't even go "oopsies", he just ignores any mistakes and carries on.


Quote
ShamiWitness close to literally tweeted about raping Kurdish women.

I see one tweet there, but it doesn't say anything about raping Kurdish women.


"In 2014, responding to reports out of Kobane that ISIS attackers were raping and mutilating female Kurdish soldiers, ShamiWitness gleefully tweeted:"



Totally Rob! This is definitely not about raping kurdish women. He just wanted ISIS to capture kurdish women so they can learn about feminism, Kurdish culture, and revolutionary struggle. 





---------------------------------



Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

Is he ? You have a link to that ?

A link? You mean a link to the article that you're responding? The article that started this discussion? Do you want me to link that again? Or did you not read that article? Because it sounds like you did not read that article. Because in that article, the article that started this discussion, explicitly says that he is in jail, with links to support that.

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #581 on: November 03, 2018, 01:27:34 PM »
There is a NEW special on the History Channel regarding WaterGate.  Part I was last night, part II is tonight, and I think part III is Sunday night.  I just watched Part I this morning.  I HIGHLY recommend it.

It goes much deeper AND more broadly than the CNN special of a year ago.  You get a better feeling for just how filthy the Nixon administration was.

Fast forward to today .... and you’ll begin to see how much more we haven’t seen YET with RussiaGate.  As I said 18 months ago ..... WaterGate will pale in comparison to what will be unearthed in RussiaGate.

Next week will likely be the next step of the Trump offensive to end/derail RussiaGate.  He has no choice .... and that is very dangerous for a sociopath like Trump.

After watching the History Channel you may get a greater appreciation of what Trump might be capable of doing.  Hint:  Take Nixon and double it.
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #582 on: November 04, 2018, 05:47:12 AM »
Zizek, with Lurk in the middle blaming me for denial, this has turned into an unhealthy discussion.

Let me just briefly make my points again, and then you can respond as you wish, but I'm done on this subject.

I think you are taking an extreme position that is no longer supported by the facts.

For example, you mention the TWO (2) #FF tweets where Higgins mentioned ShamiWitness together with other jihadi news sources.

Sending out 2 tweets is a LOT different than claiming (as you did) that

Quote
"He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

And regarding ShamiWitness being "a literal ISIS recruiter", that is still to be determined.
The last thing I know is that he is still awaiting trial.
That's a LOT different from your claim that :

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

If it were so obvious that he was "recruiting people to ISIS", then I would have expected the prosecution to move forward quickly with a trial.

But ShamiWitness mostly just parroted propaganda on Twitter, and it's not obvious he has committed any crime at all. So now it looks like India does not exactly know what to do with this guy, and that's why he has not been in trial yet (even after 4 years).

Now, I really don't know if this guy has broken the law or not.
No evidence has been presented either way.

But with your statement you make this guy guilty until proven innocent.
And that is taking an extreme position that is no longer sustained by the facts.

Incidentally, how long can India keep somebody in jail without a trial ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 07:18:37 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Red

  • Guest
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #583 on: November 04, 2018, 11:53:30 AM »
MOSCOW, November 2. /TASS/. The on-going Russophobic campaign in the West is making Russian compatriots feel like going back to Russia, a high-ranking Russian foreign ministry official said on Friday.
"We see upwards tendencies as concerns the number of applications under the resettlement program," Oleg Malginov, director of the ministry’s departs for work with compatriots living abroad, told TASS.
"There is a range of reasons for that, but the number of those who want to come to live in Russia, including from European countries, is going up obviously because of growing discomfort over this situation," he said, commenting of Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s statement on growing pressure on Russian-speakers in Western countries amidst the Russophobic campaign.
"We try to keep a close eye on this situation, to receive some data from the United States, the United Kingdom and other countries," he noted. "The press, debates in parliaments and on television - and Russophobia in society is way over the limit. They even tell us that should the Western press be likewise aggressive against other nationalities or ethnic groups the authors would have been brought to court."
The most pressing Russophobic situation, in his words, is in the Baltic states.
However, the Russian diplomat stressed, there is no Russophobia among ordinary people in the West. "Even in the United States, our compatriots organize various events and representatives from the local authorities take part in them. They help organize such events. The same can be said about other countries. Naturally, we cannot say that the mass media have no influence but we cannot say either that their negative images of Russia have taken root in society," Malginov noted.
Speaking at the opening of the 6th World Congress of Russian Compatriots, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov noted that many Russians living abroad are faced with the consequences of the West’s anti-Russian campaign in the West.


More:
http://tass.com/politics/1029170?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free

Buddy

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3325
  • Go DUCKS!!
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #584 on: November 04, 2018, 01:04:44 PM »
Red:

1). Good name ....  why hide your sentiments when you are quoting a TASS article anyway.  I’m surprised you didn’t add in an article from their sister company, FOX News.

2). There is no Russiaphobia against everyday Russian citizens who DON’T work in the upper levels of the Russian government.  I certainly feel sorry for them that they are ruled by a kleptocracy ... although I know someone in the US that is trying to take the US in that direction.😉
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #585 on: November 04, 2018, 01:10:48 PM »

Zizek, with Lurk in the middle blaming me for denial, this has turned into an unhealthy discussion.
Any discussion with you is unhealthy. You have never ever ever ever accepted any criticism that paints the west as imperialist - as an enemy.  No matter how damning, no matter how trivial, you always stay strong to support the anglo narrative.

Let me just briefly make my points again, and then you can respond as you wish, but I'm done on this subject.

Very convenient for you. You post endlessly about about propaganda, media, and open-source journalism, but the second you find yourself on shaky ground you duck out. You do this every single time your wrong. Arguing with you is exhausting, because you are never wrong.

I think you are taking an extreme position that is no longer supported by the facts.

For example, you mention the TWO (2) #FF tweets where Higgins mentioned ShamiWitness together with other jihadi news sources.

Sending out 2 tweets is a LOT different than claiming (as you did) that

Quote
"He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter.".

Rob. Bravo. You're moving the goal posts and being incredibly dishonest. I posted those tweets in response to you claiming that Bellingcat never asked people to follow ShamiWitness. Which is utterly false. Remember when you said this?

Quote
I think you are confused here. Here, from your article, Eliot gave a list of people to follow about Syria, and it does NOT include ShamiWitness.

First you say bellingcat didn't ask his followers to follow Shami. Then you say he did, but he lumped it with other Jihadi sources, so it's okay. What are you going to do next? Try to argue that Shami might actually not be so bad? (oh my, you actually did this)

Besides that, the entire article, not just those two tweets, describes how Bellingcat and his cohort provided a platform for an ISIS recruiter. And categorically ignored reputable information because it didn't serve his narrative.

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #586 on: November 04, 2018, 01:23:59 PM »
I had to have a separate post for this. Because this is bad. This is a real low point for you Rob.
You are an inch away from supporting an ISIS recruiter just so you can defend Bellingcat.


And regarding ShamiWitness being "a literal ISIS recruiter", that is still to be determined.
The last thing I know is that he is still awaiting trial.
That's a LOT different from your claim that :

Quote
ShamiWitness is literally in jail for recruiting people to ISIS

If it were so obvious that he was "recruiting people to ISIS", then I would have expected the prosecution to move forward quickly with a trial.

But ShamiWitness mostly just parroted propaganda on Twitter, and it's not obvious he has committed any crime at all. So now it looks like India does not exactly know what to do with this guy, and that's why he has not been in trial yet (even after 4 years).

Now, I really don't know if this guy has broken the law or not.
No evidence has been presented either way.

But with your statement you make this guy guilty until proven innocent.
And that is taking an extreme position that is no longer sustained by the facts.

Incidentally, how long can India keep somebody in jail without a trial ?

Innocent until proven guilty?
"I’m a soldier and messenger. I don’t regret what I’ve done"
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Im-a-soldier-I-have-no-regrets-says-ISIS-Twitter-handler-Mehdi-Masroor-Biswas/articleshow/45567376.cms

hmmmmm

Broken the law or not? This is quite the rap sheet
Joint Commissioner of Police, M. Chandrashekhar said that he is charged with supporting a terrorist organisation, waging war against the State, unlawful activities, conspiracy, sedition and promoting enmity, according to the Hindu newspaper.

Mr Chandrashekhar said the charges include aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation on Twitter.

https://www.channel4.com/news/isis-shami-witness-medhi-masroor-biswas-charged


He hasn't stand trial? His in the middle of trial right now. 
https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/others/mehdi-trial-reaches-critical-stage-police-eye-success/articleshow/55517620.cms

He even got denied bail last year.
https://www.news18.com/news/india/no-bail-to-isis-twitter-handle-operator-says-supreme-court-1450327.html

High profile trials in the United States can go on for years.... Hell, the United States keeps people in jails for years before seeing a court room

But this is the first time anybody has been charged for cyber terrorism in India. I'm sure this is simple and clear cut case for the Indian courts to make in a few months......

« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 01:37:45 PM by zizek »

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #587 on: November 04, 2018, 01:35:51 PM »
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 196
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #588 on: November 04, 2018, 01:45:51 PM »
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS

This is entirely off-topic, and an ad hominem attack.  The topic is good and bad journalism.  Perhaps you should start a new thread for "Gossip About Other ASIF Members"

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #589 on: November 04, 2018, 01:53:26 PM »
How is that post an ad hominem attack? I'm highlighting how Rob likes to play fast and loose with "facts" so it suits his narrative.  I'd like to call that an example of...... bad journalism!

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 196
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #590 on: November 04, 2018, 02:00:36 PM »
How is that post an ad hominem attack? I'm highlighting how Rob likes to play fast and loose with "facts" so it suits his narrative.  I'd like to call that an example of...... bad journalism!

You turned the topic to the person you were debating.  That's literally what "ad hominem" means.

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #591 on: November 04, 2018, 02:08:49 PM »
Uhhhh. I'm focusing on his tactics and hypocrisy though. Not his character.

Jim Pettit

  • Global Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 40
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #592 on: November 04, 2018, 02:10:23 PM »
I'm not sure what's better here. Rob on the verge of supporting an ISIS member to prove a point.  Or the irony of him requesting a formalized "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to remind our readers, Rob is a man who calls for war against nations based on evidence from open-sourced journalism. Rob is okay with bombing the shit out of countries because some non-arabic gamer in England posted a bunch of pictures with ms paint red circles. But when someone admits to being an ISIS member, talks about raping kurds, posts pictures of decapitated kurds - it's time give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Due process suddenly becomes important.


Those are the FACTS

One of the biggest myths on the internet is that SCREAMING SOMETHING IN ALL-CAPS makes one right.

You should have learned that by now.

As Neven has suggested to you, Zizek, even those who might agree with some--or even most--of your points generally find it difficult to publicly side with someone who spouts non-stop invective and ad hominem attacks. Debate the facts with facts. Argue the points with research. Rebut the poster with watertight logic. Anything less than that makes you easy to ignore, as easy to ignore as the crazy man at the corner dressed like a thrift-shop Moses and shouting that the end of the world is nigh.

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #593 on: November 04, 2018, 02:22:12 PM »
oh please. ::)

I bolded a single word as a dramatic point that displays just how obnoxious Rob can be with that term. Even when his argument was well refuted, he still hid behind that term to make it seem like I was a liar. He does this every time he's wrong: "oh jeez, oh shucks. Looks like I can't bullshit myself out of this one.  uhhhh. Facts Facts facts!!!! Your facts are wrong. Everybody, this man has bad facts! Don't ask me why those facts are wrong. They're just bad facts!"

And stop claiming ad hominem attacks just because I have a history of using them.  I bit my tongue in this case. I shouldn't have. Because there's a lot of things I'd like to say to someone apologizing for an ISIS supporter. but whoa is me

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #594 on: November 04, 2018, 02:30:51 PM »
Like. just look what is happening here. Rob was clearly wrong. Mostly because he just straight up didn't even bother to read the article I posted.  And after he was proven wrong he moved the goal posts. And with the grand finale of defending an ISIS supporter.

And what is the response? Two prolific posters dog-piling on me trying to claim I'm making attacks on his character. Ad hominems that were never made.  At worst, I made a post highlighting Rob's hypocritical and intellectually bankrupt method of arguing.

And of course the guns are pointed at me..... You wonder why I get mad on this forum.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #595 on: November 04, 2018, 02:32:47 PM »
IMO, Zizek is right. Not that it means much in the greater scheme of things, or even this forum, but he is right.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 196
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #596 on: November 04, 2018, 02:38:03 PM »
IMO, Zizek is right. Not that it means much in the greater scheme of things, or even this forum, but he is right.

Right about what?  That Rob moved goalposts in his responses?
Or right to attack Rob's character?
Or right to turn the entire topic to be about Rob, rather than Journalism?
Please be specific.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7209
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 477
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #597 on: November 04, 2018, 03:07:28 PM »
He is right about most things in this particular instance. C'est tout.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4984
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 387
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #598 on: November 04, 2018, 11:14:19 PM »

Rob Dekker

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2338
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 105
  • Likes Given: 114
Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #599 on: November 05, 2018, 05:34:44 AM »
Let's recap :
Zizek posts this blog post :

http://exiledonline.com/shamiwitness-when-bellingcat-neocons-collaborated-with-the-most-influential-isis-propagandist-on-twitter/

Which is titled ( in all CAPS ) :

SHAMIWITNESS: WHEN BELLINGCAT & NEOCONS COLLABORATED WITH THE MOST INFLUENTIAL ISIS PROPAGANDIST ON TWITTER

With the claim that :
Quote
It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.

I'm interested to hear your mental gymnastics of a response to this article:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg178682.html#msg178682

To which I responded :
Quote
I'm really puzzled about which mental gymnastics you used to draw the conclusion that based on these tweets, "It appears all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true.".
and I also noted that this was quite dated (2013/2014).
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg178682.html#msg178682

Zizek did not provide any evidence that "all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true", but instead changed the goalposts and switched to the claim that :

Quote
What the fuck Rob? ... He provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter. 
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg179035.html#msg179035

Zizek did not provide any evidence that Bellingcat "provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter" but instead again changed the goal posts, now only claiming that :

Quote
Bellingcat told people to follow an ISIS member...

That's where I made a mistake : I said "Bellingcat didn't tell anyone to follow this guy,".

Which was true if you look at Bellingcat's posts of who-to-follow on Syria, but there are TWO (2) #FF tweets from Higgins which include ShamiWitness. Two tweets which Eliot already point out that these are Jihadi news sources.

That's all the evidence we have that Bellingcat "provided a platform and support for a literal ISIS recruiter" and "all the criticism we have against Bellingcat is true",".

Two tweets.

And that is why I am saying : You are holding an extreme position, which is no longer reasonable nor sustained by the facts, and it was you who changed the goal posts. Twice.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 05:49:08 AM by Rob Dekker »
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.