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Author Topic: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism  (Read 63781 times)

Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #600 on: November 05, 2018, 05:50:58 AM »
Between posts from Zizek, Lurk and even Neven ("it's not for you, Rob. It's for those who have ears to hear") against my person, but unwilling to go ad-hominem in return, I feel like a one-legged man in an arse kicking contest.

Since I seem to get under people's skin with my fact checks, should I just disappear from these threads ?

And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?
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Hefaistos

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #601 on: November 05, 2018, 06:03:11 AM »
...should I just disappear from these threads ?
...

Rob, if you're an AI/computer algorithm (as I've been suspecting for some time), I suggest you go.

As Zizek put it: "Arguing with you is exhausting, because you are never wrong."
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 06:14:51 AM by Hefaistos »

Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #602 on: November 05, 2018, 06:21:26 AM »
Rob is not a bot.

And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?

I and others have tried to explain several times, but you do not seem to even acknowledge other viewpoints on this matter, let alone be open to them. I'll be posting my views on Bellingcat one more time this week (after viewing that documentary several times), but I'll do it in the Russia thread.

The only reason to discuss it here, is that Bellingcat has been elevated in an attempt to supersede the discussion of good and bad journalism (in other words, general trust in media), and the reason why it is defended so vehemently - and any critic is on some arbitrary list - is that people simply have to fall in line with a certain narrative. The problem being that this narrative leads to war and misery (and big profits for a small group of people (in the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the EU, Israel, Ukraine, etc).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 06:30:32 AM by Neven »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #603 on: November 05, 2018, 07:10:46 AM »
Rob is not a bot.

Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Quote
And at a very high level : What did open source journalism, and Bellingcat specifically, ever do wrong to any of you, for you to be fighting so hard to discredit them ?

I and others have tried to explain several times, but you do not seem to even acknowledge other viewpoints on this matter, let alone be open to them. I'll be posting my views on Bellingcat one more time this week (after viewing that documentary several times), but I'll do it in the Russia thread.

I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me. Like the opinion that open source investigations is conflicting with a particular "world view" which has been developed over a lifetime.

So, I'm looking forward to your clear explanation of your opinion about Bellingcat on the Russia thread.

Quote
The only reason to discuss it here, is that Bellingcat has been elevated in an attempt to supersede the discussion of good and bad journalism (in other words, general trust in media), and the reason why it is defended so vehemently - and any critic is on some arbitrary list - is that people simply have to fall in line with a certain narrative.

That's kind of interesting, since Bellingcat has gained so much credibility in the media lately, simply because they have been proven to be right every time. So the only "narrative" they fell in line with is the narrative of the truth.

Quote
The problem being that this narrative leads to war and misery (and big profits for a small group of people (in the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the EU, Israel, Ukraine, etc).

I don't see that Bellingcat's uncovering the truth has led to war and misery.
Could you clarify ?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 07:32:37 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #604 on: November 05, 2018, 07:30:24 AM »
Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Yes, I noticed. You insult him too all the time, so stop whining/trolling/playing the victim like a climate risk denier. He's on moderation, you're not.

Quote
I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me.

Indeed, which leaves two possibilities:

1) They don't make sense.
2) You're not capable of making sense of them, because your mind is closed.

You think it's 1), I think it's 2). Like I said, you aren't even willing to acknowledge analysis that differs from conventional(/conditioned) thought.

Quote
So, I'm looking forward to your clear explanation of your opinion about Bellingcat on the Russia thread.

It won't differ much from what I've said so far. The documentary has given me more insight into the people behind Bellingcat, besides Higgins (who is a tragic figure).

Bellingcat is being used as a weapon, a propaganda tool in its own right. It's not going to lead to anything good, and if it ever does, Assange will have to share whatever prison he's in.

Quote
I don't see that Bellingcat's uncovering the "narrative" of the truth has led to war and misery.Could you clarify ?

I've already done so before, here and in our e-mail exchanges, in many different ways. I can't prove it in a scientific way, which leaves you room to disregard it entirely. But I've experienced a war and the build-up towards it up close, and you clearly haven't.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #605 on: November 05, 2018, 07:52:09 AM »
Thanks. Yet Lurk has found a way to insult me regardless. Did you notice ?

Yes, I noticed. You insult him too all the time, so stop whining/trolling/playing the victim like a climate risk denier. He's on moderation, you're not.

Interesting that you allow ad hominem insults through while he is on moderation.

And interesting that you insult me ad hominem too : ""it's not for you, Rob. It's for those who have ears to hear".

Quote
Quote
I did read all the previous explanations, but they don't make any sense at all to me.

Indeed, which leaves two possibilities:

1) They don't make sense.
2) You're not capable of making sense of them, because your mind is closed.

You think it's 1), I think it's 2). Like I said, you aren't even willing to acknowledge analysis that differs from conventional(/conditioned) thought.

Sure. Here is your latest explanation as to why "open source" investigations are just not your thing :

Quote
Thanks, Rob, but I'm not a journalist of any statue. I'm just a guy who follows Arctic sea ice, and I write about it as an activist, fueled by a certain world view. That world view cannot be taught in a workshop. It takes a life to develop, and 'open source' journalism can't do much to influence it, because I try to base it on universal principles, not on worldly events, or an interpretation thereof.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg179195.html#msg179195

Now, what am I supposed to make of that response, Neven ?

Is my mind closed (2), as you suggest, or does your explanation simply does not make sense (1) ?
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Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #606 on: November 05, 2018, 08:18:28 AM »
Interesting that you allow ad hominem insults through while he is on moderation.

I let some through, others I don't, assuming everything is an ad hominem, of course.

Quote
Sure. Here is your latest explanation as to why "open source" investigations are just not your thing :

See, there we have an ad hominem, claiming I said things that I didn't. This is why I let some of the things Lurk writes about you, through. And people should keep that in mind before complaining. The 'radical' members may cross the lines occasionally, but the 'conventional/conservative' members do so as well in less obvious ways. Never mind the fact that 'radical' is more useful than 'conventional/conservative' if we want to discuss real solutions to problems like AGW, and all the other global problems neoliberalism is causing.

In principle, investigative journalism is great (the label 'open source journalism' is just part of the hype). But in practice, not everything Bellingcat does, is my thing. Unlike you, I don't have to attack or defend anything 100%, which makes it easier to avoid traps where you have to engage in acrobatics to keep the contradictions separate in the brain. Like you just did in your discussions with Zizek wrt Higgins promoting some jihadist troll.

Not everything Bellingcat does - and especially what a narcissist like Eliot Higgins does - is the best thing since sliced bread, Rob. Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Quote
Now, what am I supposed to make of that response, Neven ?

Is my mind closed (2), as you suggest, or does your explanation simply does not make sense (1) ?

Exactly, that's the big question. In the meantime, we're both wasting our time.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #607 on: November 05, 2018, 08:53:51 AM »
Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

But no, you HAVE TO attack Higgins and Bellingcat and open source investigations in general.

Why, Neven, why ?
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Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #608 on: November 05, 2018, 09:15:36 AM »
Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation, leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives, the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

Quote
Why, Neven, why ?

I've explained why multiple times. The fact that you can't accept my viewpoint, is your problem. Maybe you can ask Facebook and Twitter to suspend my accounts.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #609 on: November 05, 2018, 09:57:50 AM »
Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation,

Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives,

Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

I asked you this before : Can you give an example of an Atlantic Counsil report that is "war-mongering" ?

Quote
All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Or may it be that you are just jealous ?

Quote
Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

But it is, Neven. It is.
Open source journalism is more powerful than traditional journalism, because we can all verify the evidence. Nobody can 'taint' the story because we can all verify the facts the story is based upon.

That's what makes open source investigations so powerful in separating truth from propaganda, and that's what makes Bellingcat a threat to all propaganda outlets.

For example, about MH17, there are a few guys in England taking on the entire Russian Ministry of Defense, using open source evidence to show the truth :
that Russia provided the BUK that downed MH17.

You gotta admit, that takes balls, and courage. And lots of open source evidence.

And if you don't respect that, I can only assume that you prefer the Russian propaganda over the truth.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 10:08:23 AM by Rob Dekker »
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mostly_lurking

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #610 on: November 05, 2018, 10:33:02 AM »
I don't agree with TYT and Cenk on much today but this was 100% correct.


Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #611 on: November 05, 2018, 11:51:34 AM »
Thanks for sharing this, mostly_lurking. The long version popped in my YouTube recommended watching list, but it was too long for me. I didn't know Kulinski also did a summary. Cenk indeed nails it 100%. Elite media bubble, encompassing not just people working in media, but their followers as well.

And Kulinksi really nails it too (as he often does), especially towards the end:

Quote
Bernie Sanders is the most liked politician in America right now. How many establishment media pieces have you seen, getting people ready for Bernie's 2020 run? Where they talk about 'oh, he's so popular, he's selling out stadiums all over the place, his policy agenda polls overwhelmingly well, here, look at the numbers, 70% for his Medicare-for-all bill, 58% for his free college-bill, 58% for raising taxes on the rich'. When was the last time you saw an excited piece in mainstream media about Bernie Sanders, who is the most liked politician in the country, running in 2020? You haven't seen it? But we have seen it about Joe Biden. We have seen it about Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. Literally, we've seen it about them.

How do you explain that? You explain it by pointing out that the media hires safe mouthpieces for the establishment.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 12:05:52 PM by Neven »
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sidd

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #612 on: November 05, 2018, 09:36:08 PM »
Lapham at lithub on plutocracy and politics in the USA:

"Trump is undoubtedly a menace, but he isn’t a surprise. His smug and self-satisfied face is the face of the way things are and have been in Washington and Wall Street for the last quarter of a century."

"Trump was there to say, and say it plainly, that money is power, and power, ladies and gentlemen, is not self-sacrificing or democratic. The big money cares for nothing other than itself, always has and always will. "

"A fair enough share of his fellow citizens screamed, stamped and voted in agreement because what he was saying they knew to be true, knew it not as precept borrowed from the collected works of V.I. Lenin or Ralph Lauren but from their own downwardly mobile experience on the losing side of a class war waged over the past 40 years by America’s increasingly frightened and selfish rich against its increasingly angry and debtbound poor."

"Trump is president of the United States, and what in 1988 was a weakened but still operational democracy has become a dysfunctional, stupefied plutocracy. "

"The nation’s political discourse meanwhile has dwindled into the staging of election campaigns with candidates prized for the gift of saying nothing. Forbidden the use of words apt to disturb a Gallup poll or offend a bagman, they stand and serve as product placements for concentrated wealth, their quality to be inferred from the cost of their manufacture. "

“The fundamental division of powers in the Constitution of the United States is between voters on the one hand and property owners on the other. The forces of democracy on the one side . . . and the forces of property on the other side.”

"At no moment in its history has the country not been nailed to a cross of gold. "

 “those who own the country ought to govern it.”

"Faith in democracy survived the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963; it didn’t survive the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King in 1968. "

"The visual order of print sustains a sequence of cause and effect, tells a story with a beginning, middle and end. The speed of light spreads stories that run around in circles, eliminate the dimensions of space and time, construct a world in which nothing follows from anything else. Sequence becomes additive instead of causative, “Graphic Man” replaces “Typographic Man,” and the images of government become a government of images."

"the amassment of wealth and the acquisition of power follows from the naming of things rather than from the making of them. The future is a product to be sold, not a story to be told."

"Advertising is the voice of money talking to money"

"Typographic Man wrote the Constitution and the Gettysburg Address; Graphic Man elects the president of the United States. "

"The comic book hero won the comic book election."

"The excellence of Mark Zuckerberg is the excellence of Donald Trump, product placements of concentrated wealth but also embodiments of the spirit of an age ... "

"What can be said about the big money can also be said about technology: it cares for nothing other than itself, collects and stores the dots but connects them only to other dots ... Siri, Watson and Alexa can access the Library of Congress, but they don’t read the books. "

" ...  if left to its own devices, the Dionysian god in the machine of creatively annihilating capitalism must devour and destroy the earth. Not with malice aforethought, but because it is a machine, and like all machines knows not what else to do."

Read the whole thing:

https://lithub.com/lewis-lapham-of-america-and-the-rise-of-the-stupefied-plutocrat/2/?single=true

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #613 on: November 06, 2018, 09:30:37 AM »
Neven, can you please finish what you started, and provide some evidence for your claims against open source journalism, Bellingcat and Higgins specifically.

Here is what you claimed but have not substantiated yet :

Neven on November 05, 2018, 08:18:28 AM said :
Quote
Higgins has made huge mistakes, is still making them, and his Twitter behaviour is appalling, undermining his credibility and trustworthiness in serious ways.

Did he ? Name ONE mistake Higgins made. Because he has been spot-on in every one of his posts ever since he started blogging.

Asides from all the speculation,

Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
leaving stuff out that doesn't fit the narrative and ignoring possible alternatives,

Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

Quote
the biggest mistake Higgins made, was teaming up with neocon, war-mongering outfit the Atlantic Council.

I asked you this before : Can you give an example of an Atlantic Counsil report that is "war-mongering" ?

Quote
All Higgins cares about, is getting attention. And probably money too.

Or may it be that you are just jealous ?

Quote
Quote
But once again : what is your problem with Higgins and Bellingcat ?
If you don't like the work they do, you could just leave it be.

No problem, you just stop presenting it as the Holy Grail of journalism as a science.

But it is, Neven. It is.
Open source journalism is more powerful than traditional journalism, because we can all verify the evidence. Nobody can 'taint' the story because we can all verify the facts the story is based upon.

That's what makes open source investigations so powerful in separating truth from propaganda, and that's what makes Bellingcat a threat to all propaganda, left or right.

Is that why you attack Bellingcat, Neven ?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 09:37:53 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #614 on: November 06, 2018, 09:37:30 AM »
You nailed it, Rob. You've proven it scientifically.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #615 on: November 06, 2018, 09:48:16 AM »
You nailed it, Rob. You've proven it scientifically.

I did ? That doesn't make any sense.

I just asked questions about your claims... which you did not yet answer...

The issue is that I don't understand why you are so negative about open source journalism, Bellingcat and Higgins, and why you are so ultra-skeptical of the work they present (to the point where you don't accept it at all. None of it).

I don't get that kind of ultra-bias against Bellingcat, Neven, and I think it is worthwhile if you would explain your position in more detail.

Hence these questions about your claims...
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Neven

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #616 on: November 06, 2018, 10:13:25 AM »
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.
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Hefaistos

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #617 on: November 06, 2018, 10:50:00 AM »
... I can't help you with that.

Neven, remains to help yourself.

Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #618 on: November 07, 2018, 07:02:42 AM »
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:07:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #619 on: November 07, 2018, 09:04:10 AM »
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things. I can spend hours and hours, looking for details that corroborate my statements, but you will simply ignore everything.

The problem is that with many issues we will simply never know the truth, which is why people can and do spin facts to fit their narratives. And even when the truth comes out eventually, most people either don't care or fall back to denial mode.

Here's science:
Bellingcat supports the war-mongering, arms-selling NATO narrative + Rob Dekker loves Bellingcat = Rob Dekker supports the war-mongering, arms-selling NATO narrative

Conclusion of this thread: BAD journalism is good when it supports the GOOD narrative. Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists. Show us scientific proof that you're not.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #620 on: November 07, 2018, 09:10:22 AM »
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things. I can spend hours and hours, looking for details that corroborate my statements, but you will simply ignore everything.

So far you have spend a lot of time avoiding these questions, but no time actually answering them.
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #621 on: November 07, 2018, 02:54:02 PM »
Rob, I've answered those questions thoroughly before. What use is there in answering them again, if you won't even acknowledge them, let alone remember what I said? You simply don't want to hear anything outside of your bubble. I can't help you with that.

But Neven, you did NOT answer ANY of these questions.
Let me state them once more :

- Can you give an example of any "speculation" by Higgins, which turned out to be wrong ?

- Can you give an example of where a "possible alternative" turned out to be right, and Higgins' statements turned out to be wrong ?

and

- Can you give an example of an Atlantic Council report that is "war-mongering" ?

Let me remind you that these questions are directly on your claims about Bellingcat and open source journalism. Should be easy for you to answer if you meant what you said.

Others have posted a multitude of links discussing these things.
(...)
Links to RT? Jimmy Dore? Hahaaaaahaha... Else, no links, just parroting transparent smear. Maybe something got lost in between Lurk's epic ramblings, but all I recall is Russian propaganda bullshit against Bellingcat.

Now pretty please, I also want to see something serious. After all that texting it would be fair to recap some of your substantiated criticisms. Then we can move on.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 03:03:27 PM by Martin Gisser »

sidd

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #622 on: November 08, 2018, 12:36:49 AM »
gooface wins the election:

“What they wanted to see was how many ads could they put on digital without people getting really upset.”

"Digital ad spending rose more than 25-fold from the last non-presidential national elections in 2014, reaching 20 percent of expected political spending this year at almost $1.8 billion, according to estimates compiled by Borrell. Kantar Media/CMAG, which omits some online activity, estimated 2018 online spending at $900 million, up from $250 million four years ago."

"Texas Democrat Beto O’Rourke was the biggest political spender on Facebook, placing $7 million in ads, according to a tally presented online by the social media giant. President Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again Committee was the No. 2 spender, at $3.4 million, and the Trump presidential campaign spent an additional $2.6 million ..."

"Facebook said it has reaped $354 million from more than 2 million ads. Google alone took in about $74.7 million on ads that mentioned federal candidates or incumbents since the end of May 2018 ..."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-06/facebook-google-are-election-ad-winners-despite-meddling-outcry

sidd

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #623 on: November 08, 2018, 09:16:50 AM »
And how much was spent on Cambridge Analytica-type stuff?
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #624 on: November 08, 2018, 01:25:41 PM »
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265



mostly_lurking

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #625 on: November 08, 2018, 04:15:36 PM »
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265

Meh. Acosta was being an ass. Sarah took the video from the wrong source I guess but I doubt it was intentional.

EDIT : relevant.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:39:00 PM by mostly_lurking »

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #626 on: November 08, 2018, 09:37:45 PM »
More blood on the hands of FOX News hosts like Laura Ingraha, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, and others at FOX.  When will FOX stop lying about reasonable gun control?

Donald Trump wants churches to have guns.  Now I suppose Trump and his enablers at FOX want waitresses to carry guns.

When will FOX News stop campaigning for Donald Trump?  When will FOX stop enabling Donald Trump?  When will FOX stop lying about global warming?

FOX News:  “Where truth and journalism are dead.”
FOX (RT) News....."The Trump Channel.....where truth and journalism are dead."

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #627 on: November 09, 2018, 09:46:03 AM »
Bad Journalism, does that include when the administration releases a doctored video ?

https://twitter.com/aymanndotcom/status/1060407290472398849

Quote
The intern's reach for the mic is slowed down, and the "chop" motion is accelerated. Here's an annotated side by side comparison:

Here's the video released by Sarah Sanders:
https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1060374680991883265

Spot on NevB.
This is another close look at this :



It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:51:54 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #628 on: November 09, 2018, 10:15:10 AM »

It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
One more time- it wasn't the WH. And Acosta was being an ass.

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #629 on: November 09, 2018, 01:09:16 PM »
There is NOTHING that is below lying fake Christian Sarah Huckabee.  Nothing.  I hope she enjoys her last year/months lying from the podium.  The good thing for her is that FOX News is always looking for a few fake Christians to lie for them.  She should have no problem working for them.  She will fit in perfectly.
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #630 on: November 09, 2018, 01:24:07 PM »

It's pretty clear the WH doctored the video.
One more time- it wasn't the WH. And Acosta was being an ass.

It wasn't the Whitehouse but they still haven't apologised for peddling a lie or admitted their mistake. Yet here you are defending them.

What you are defending is a would be tyrant who is trying to overpower one of the fundamental pillars of democracy. Until now the executive was answerable to the people in some way, Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered. If people don't stand up to him this is what will happen and those that enable him in any way must be opposed.

PS Don't bother with a reply to me, I have had my say and just don't have time to waste on you.




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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #631 on: November 09, 2018, 03:40:08 PM »
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

Oh really?
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
How nice of you to say so.

I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you ..... and I do hope Neven didn't 'cull' my little comment on Paranoia. Such basic education to raise awareness really is needed imo.

Noted: You can't quote me without subtly changing my words

Also noted is that a comparison of Trumps direction and Putin's reality is what lights your fire.

As for your subtle threat about the NSA I think I'm OK as long as I don't mention Bomb, President, IED, attack, plane, Jihad, Allah, Plutonium or detonator especially in one sentence and post that online. And as for paranoia I use my real name and my profile has my E-Mail address with my domain that is easily traceable. I have nothing to hide do you?   

What's your real name Lurk?, what are your hiding from from?

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #632 on: November 10, 2018, 05:18:36 AM »
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

Oh really?
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
How nice of you to say so.

I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you ..... and I do hope Neven didn't 'cull' my little comment on Paranoia. Such basic education to raise awareness really is needed imo.

Noted: You can't quote me without subtly changing my words

Are you like, OK or ill or what?

I did quote your words ... verbatim in the QUOTE without any change at all - can you see that maybe?   

If you quote somebody, don't cut out a part.

It changes the meaning.

And don't call people "ill or what". It's not nice and it distracts.

And what the heck is with the "I sure do hope the NSA has 'your number' and are keeping an eye on you" remark ? What are you trying to say here, Lurk ?
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Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #633 on: November 11, 2018, 10:41:30 AM »
Let's take a look at that statement by Sanders.
Here is the Daily Beast article that Dore is talking about :

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-on-andrew-gillium-and-stacey-abrams-many-whites-uncomfortable-voting-for-black-candidates?ref=scroll

With this particular quote of interest :

Quote
“I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American,” Sanders told The Daily Beast, referencing the close contests involving Andrew Gillum in Florida and Stacey Abrams in Georgia and ads run against the two. “I think next time around, by the way, it will be a lot easier for them to do that.”

Now, I don't see anything "racist" in Sanders' statements, not more than I see anything "racist" in the Daily Beast reporting of it.

Seems to me that Dore (and Lurk by extension) is overreacting, exaggerating and mis-informing. Again.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 10:48:58 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #634 on: November 11, 2018, 10:51:06 AM »
Neven has been Gaslighted so many times by posters here that I'm surprised he doesn't look like a piece of toast. Actually, could you post a recent photo Neven so I can be sure about that. I might be wrong. :)

Can you give ONE example of where Neven was supposedly "gaslighted" ?
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NevB

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #635 on: November 12, 2018, 02:32:14 PM »
I wasn't intending to post anything else here, as I don't have the time or inclination for replies.

But then this tempted me: 

https://thinkprogress.org/kellyanne-video-acosta-sports-replay-fe6ad3211268/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5be96b5c04d3016e1ca77980&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Quote
“Oh, well that’s not altered, that’s sped up,” said Conway of the altered video, somehow managing to keep a straight face. The dictionary definition of the word “altered” is to be “made different in some way.”

Quote
“They do it all the time in sports to see if there’s actually a first down or a touchdown,” she told Wallace. “I have to disagree with the overwrought description of this video being doctored as if we put somebody else’s arm in there.”

Obviously the "bad" journalism was created by the administration but it's their use of this "bad" journalism and the attacks on "good" journalism (especially the incitement of violence and the outright support of the politician that assaulted a journalist) that I see as a gravely dangerous.

IMHO: If this is to continue and Trump managers another term (which is not at all impossible) then there is a decent chance that the media will no longer be free to criticise the administration and the incitement to violence along with more violent acts will begin to have the desired effect.
Then without any kind of restraint this could become a permanent situation.


Also as a final note:

The two paragraphs above are just my observation and the quote below was I guess just bait for Russian apologists while although true doesn't help this discussion proceed. This comes from deep frustration with the way Russia's behaviour is dismissed, denied, excused or even held as equivalent to US actions here and the what I see as a need to warn of the consequences.

However as I said above I don't have the time, attitude, firsthand knowledge or inclination to get involved in this debate as there are others far more capable. I don't intend to post any more here as this will only degenerate into useless distracting flame wars (which would suit anyone wanting to see this place disrupted).

Quote
Trump would like the US to become more like Putin's Russia where journalist who ask difficult questions are murdered.

(which BTW is not

Quote
President Trump would like journalists who ask difficult questions murdered.
)

Have at it, I'll will be watching silently.





Rob Dekker

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #636 on: November 13, 2018, 09:31:32 AM »
Lurk : I'm not kidding. You claim that :

Neven has been Gaslighted so many times by posters here that I'm surprised he doesn't look like a piece of toast. Actually, could you post a recent photo Neven so I can be sure about that. I might be wrong. :)

Can you give ONE example of where Neven was supposedly "gaslighted" ?
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #637 on: November 13, 2018, 10:06:11 AM »
About that Al-Aqsa strike :

Quote
An Israeli airstrike blew up the building housing the Hamas’ Al-Aqsa TV station in the Gaza Strip on Monday night, during retaliatory strikes for over 300 rockets fired at Israel by Hamas terrorists.

The IAF first fired a “warning missile” at the multi-story building, before destroying it with a number of additional missiles. Frequently referred to as a “knock on the roof,” the warning missile warns people that an attack on a building is imminent and allows people to leave the site.



https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1621613/watch-this-idf-blows-up-hamas-al-aqsa-tv-station-headquarters-in-gaza-after-first-firing-a-warning-missile.html
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:11:17 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #638 on: November 13, 2018, 10:28:27 AM »
Lurk : I'm not kidding. You claim that :

Neven has been Gaslighted so many times by posters here that I'm surprised he doesn't look like a piece of toast. Actually, could you post a recent photo Neven so I can be sure about that. I might be wrong. :)

Can you give ONE example of where Neven was supposedly "gaslighted" ?
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Red

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #639 on: November 13, 2018, 11:38:18 AM »
In October of 1965, 2014 and 2018 three journalists were prominently assassinated: Mehdi Ben Barka, Serena Shim and Jamal Khashoggi. Most readers likely don’t know the first two, while the entire world seems to know about the last one.

This is a 4-part series which explains what Jamal Khashoggi represented ideologically, the relevance of his ideology in the modern Islamic World, the perhaps-unexpected similarity of his ideology with the Western World, and why – even more unexpectedly – the world is still talking about Khashoggi six weeks after his death.
Why do so few remember Mehdi Ben Barka or care about Serena Shim even though they did far more for the People than Khashoggi ever did?
There is a quick answer to this question: Khashoggi remains in the spotlight because the House of Saud killed a Western journalist.

The location and details, or Khashoggi’s birthplace and background, are totally subservient to the fact that he worked for a top Western media and that he was blindly and foolishly loyal to their ideology. A Western journalist cannot be killed without media campaigns and even serious bilateral repercussions, but Khashoggi was no regular freelancer – he was a prominent editorialist at the United States’ 2nd-most important newspaper, the neoconservative The Washington Post.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/12/khashoggi-ben-barka-presstvs-serena-shim-a-4-part-series/

Red

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #640 on: November 13, 2018, 11:44:36 AM »
There comes a time in the decline of an empire when–in its hubris, its arrogance–it decouples from reason and blindly blunders toward its fate in a ludicrous ugly trance of stupidity.  To paraphrase Walter Cronkite–we are there.

Trump makes his one positive, even useful, gesture as President, and the decayed corpse of the Democratic Party bursts its cerements with a stinking roar of horror.

The claim that all that is wrong with America is due to the malignant machinations of Putin is the most blatantly false, potentially disastrous bucket of bullshit ever inflicted by the matrix on this ignorant, credulous, propagandized people.

The MSM–the PR arm of the War Machine Complex that owns us–has so infected the national mind with the sleazy fiction concocted by the Democrat’s Geezer Politburo–the DNC slugs, Schumer, Pelosi and their geriatric myrmidons–that Trumpophobe Automatons rage at Putin and howl for a war, the horror of which they can’t begin to imagine.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/08/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/

Red

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #641 on: November 13, 2018, 11:50:18 AM »
Yesterday marked the 100th anniversary of the armistice which finally brought an end to World War I. Nothing like it had ever been seen in human history—a bloody inferno costing the lives of more than ten million soldiers and six million civilians with millions more permanently maimed, disfigured and injured.
But the silencing of the guns, in what was later to be falsely labelled as the “war to end all wars,” was not the end of the bloodshed and carnage. It was simply the conclusion of the first phase of what was to become a thirty-year international war between the major capitalist powers—the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan and their allies for control and domination of the world—that only came to an end in 1945, culminating in the dropping of two atomic bombs by the US on Japan.

In war, it has often been said, truth is the first casualty. And so it is the case here. The war of 1914–18 was not fought, as claimed by British imperialism—presiding over the greatest empire the world had ever seen—to defend the right of small nations against the depredations of Germany. Nor was it fought, as claimed by the German imperialists, to counter the barbarism of Tsarist Russia. Neither was it fought as claimed by France, allied with the Tsarist regime, to defend republican ideals against Prussian autocracy. And least of all was it a war to “make the world safe for democracy,” the fraudulent claim advanced by President Woodrow Wilson as the United States entered the conflict in April 1917 in order to ensure that the interests of rising American imperialism were advanced in the division of the spoils.

The war was waged for markets, profits, resources and spheres of influence. But this conflict itself did not simply arise from the political outlook of the various imperialist politicians. It had deeper roots in the very development of the capitalist economy. As Leon Trotsky explained, in words that ring out even more powerfully in today’s era of globalised production, the foundations of the war were to be found in the objective contradiction between the development of world economy and the division of the world into rival capitalist nation-states and imperialist great powers
.
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/12/the-armistice-of-november-11-1918-and-the-lessons-for-today/

magnamentis

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #642 on: November 13, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »
Yesterday marked the 100th anniversary of the armistice which finally brought an end to World War I. Nothing like it had ever been seen in human history—a bloody inferno costing the lives of more than ten million soldiers and six million civilians with millions more permanently maimed, disfigured and injured.
But the silencing of the guns, in what was later to be falsely labelled as the “war to end all wars,” was not the end of the bloodshed and carnage. It was simply the conclusion of the first phase of what was to become a thirty-year international war between the major capitalist powers—the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan and their allies for control and domination of the world—that only came to an end in 1945, culminating in the dropping of two atomic bombs by the US on Japan.

In war, it has often been said, truth is the first casualty. And so it is the case here. The war of 1914–18 was not fought, as claimed by British imperialism—presiding over the greatest empire the world had ever seen—to defend the right of small nations against the depredations of Germany. Nor was it fought, as claimed by the German imperialists, to counter the barbarism of Tsarist Russia. Neither was it fought as claimed by France, allied with the Tsarist regime, to defend republican ideals against Prussian autocracy. And least of all was it a war to “make the world safe for democracy,” the fraudulent claim advanced by President Woodrow Wilson as the United States entered the conflict in April 1917 in order to ensure that the interests of rising American imperialism were advanced in the division of the spoils.

The war was waged for markets, profits, resources and spheres of influence. But this conflict itself did not simply arise from the political outlook of the various imperialist politicians. It had deeper roots in the very development of the capitalist economy. As Leon Trotsky explained, in words that ring out even more powerfully in today’s era of globalised production, the foundations of the war were to be found in the objective contradiction between the development of world economy and the division of the world into rival capitalist nation-states and imperialist great powers
.
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/12/the-armistice-of-november-11-1918-and-the-lessons-for-today/

top notch, great read and great truth ( yeah i know the thread about what's truth, hence IMO)  ;)

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #643 on: November 14, 2018, 02:56:30 AM »
The claim that all that is wrong with America is due to the malignant machinations of Putin is the most blatantly false, potentially disastrous bucket of bullshit ever inflicted by the matrix on this ignorant, credulous, propagandized people.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/08/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/
Who claims this? This is childish. (Sorry children, didn't intend to insult you all...) An example of exceedingly bad journalism (if any), smelling a mile against the wind of Putin propaganda gaslighting.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 03:15:10 AM by Martin Gisser »

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #644 on: November 14, 2018, 04:39:49 AM »
The claim that all that is wrong with America is due to the malignant machinations of Putin is the most blatantly false, potentially disastrous bucket of bullshit ever inflicted by the matrix on this ignorant, credulous, propagandized people.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/08/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/
Who claims this? This is childish. (Sorry children, didn't intend to insult you all...) An example of exceedingly bad journalism (if any), smelling a mile against the wind of Putin propaganda gaslighting.

Spot on, Martin.
Greanvillepost.com is a known Russian propaganda site.

These are the same guys who are claiming that MH17 was a "False Flag, One of Many" by "American-backed extremists who had taken Kiev in a bloody coup and purge" and "when Kiev fell to the neo-Nazi coup" and other nonsense.

They are on the propornot.com list for a reason.
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #645 on: November 14, 2018, 06:39:54 AM »
Propornot, Who are these guys?

https://off-guardian.org/2018/01/31/untying-propornot-who-they-are-and-a-look-at-2017s-biggest-fake-news-story/

Could the Atlantic Council, Radio Free Europe, Ukrainian Intelligence and Voice of America be involved? Do they sound like unbiased authorities?

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #646 on: November 14, 2018, 09:34:46 AM »
The claim that all that is wrong with America is due to the malignant machinations of Putin is the most blatantly false, potentially disastrous bucket of bullshit ever inflicted by the matrix on this ignorant, credulous, propagandized people.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/08/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/
Who claims this? This is childish. (Sorry children, didn't intend to insult you all...) An example of exceedingly bad journalism (if any), smelling a mile against the wind of Putin propaganda gaslighting.

You undermine your own argument with those last three words. In fact, you undermine your own movement.
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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #647 on: November 14, 2018, 11:30:13 AM »
How free is your freedom of speech?

You have the freedom to speak your mind, right? Well, not really. Let me explain.

The way you speak is the result of the way you think. That is, your thought process is reflected in how you express and communicate yourself through the means of language. Therefore, the more of a freethinking person you are, the more your speech will reflect your mind. On the contrary, the more manipulated your thinking is, the less you will be able to speak out your mind — because, in a sense, it is not yours.

How much of a freethinker do you think you actually are? The majority of people aren’t much: Their ideas and opinions on the most important issues in life don’t sprout from their own personal experience and understanding, but are just a result of the conditioning they had to undergo during their upbringing. In other words, they have been brainwashed to accept and follow dogmas that were forced upon them by tradition through — just to name a few examples — school, religion, and the mainstream media.

Give this a thought: If your thinking is actually controlled and bounded within a tiny mental box, how much freedom of speech and expression do you actually possess?

Freedom of speech is meaningless without freedom of thought

Everybody might be free to utter whatever comes to their mind, but what is so important in doing so if all that does come is actually just utter nonsense arising from blind belief created by social programming? To put it differently, what is the point of freedom of speech when there’s no freedom of thought in the first place?

Freedom of speech is meaningless if speech is not powered by free, creative thought.

We have been fooled into believing in the idea that we have freedom of speech by those who desire to manipulate us for their own personal benefit, such us politicians, priests, and the economic elite, who are ready to do anything in order to stay in positions of power. And what is their best way to manipulate us? To keep us stupid and passive, while we actually believe that we possess knowledge and freedom. And the more we believe that we are free, the more we stay confined in a prison that we can’t even see — a mental prison with invisible bars.

Unaware of our slavery, how can we seek freedom?



https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/13/what-is-the-point-of-freedom-of-speech-when-there-is-no-freedom-of-thought/

Martin Gisser

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #648 on: November 14, 2018, 02:03:04 PM »
The claim that all that is wrong with America is due to the malignant machinations of Putin is the most blatantly false, potentially disastrous bucket of bullshit ever inflicted by the matrix on this ignorant, credulous, propagandized people.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/11/08/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/
Who claims this? This is childish. (Sorry children, didn't intend to insult you all...) An example of exceedingly bad journalism (if any), smelling a mile against the wind of Putin propaganda gaslighting.

You undermine your own argument with those last three words. In fact, you undermine your own movement.
It's not "my" "movement". I simply want to get at the bottom of things. Like in umm science. That's why I react allergic on childish psycho play. Sure not all that comes out of Russia is disinformation or gaslighting (and also the "West" does produce psycho disinfo gaslighting). A source that produces stuff like the above is to be dismissed, period. And I'm sorry, it smells Russian. They are much better at that "art" than the "West" - I've seen enough examples right here at the Forum. It's not even an argument I'm making, because you can't argue against childish psycho bullshit.

magnamentis

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Re: The Media: Examples of Good AND Bad Journalism
« Reply #649 on: November 14, 2018, 09:51:54 PM »
How free is your freedom of speech?

Unaware of our slavery, how can we seek freedom?

while i would sign most of what you wrote (to say all i'd have to read several times) i think there is something to add that is mostly a non-topic in all discussions about freedom.

some vote for maximal if not total freedom and others vote for heavily limited freedom by rules of all kind while as you say, many of those rules are made with a (non-clean) purpose and serve only a few at the cost of real freedom of the rest.

what i want to add to your speech is:

freedom comes with responsibility a responsibility that ideally but seldom is on own knowledge, experience, believes and convictions.

this kind of responsibility is in itself a freedom but will reduce the freedom to be an ego-centred individual abusing the word freedom to excuse his/her egoistic  behaviour/thinking.

now as it comes not every animal that looks like a human and walks on two legs is indeed a "mensch" in the original yiddish meaning of the word, that are only about 2% of the population while the rest are mostly animals ( i love animals as long as they don't pretend not to be)

BTW this terminology is very old and not only biblical, all major cultural leaders and intellectual highflyers came to a similar conclusion, there are many enough citations that most of us would sign without hesitation, only that they're either less rude or from someone who is not vulnerable to hypocritical  criticism)

even the freedom to think that way comes with the responsibility to not value the lesser less but high ;)

however i got a bit distracted in the thought, in short, the limitation of freedom by applied responsibility is not a negative limitation if it's based on knowledge, own decisions, believes, thoughts and experience.