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magnamentis

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2019, 12:51:07 AM »
When discussions (political or otherwise) turn threatening or violent, ending anonymity is a wonderful way to shut one side up and hand a major win to the bad guys.

exactly what i thought while reading, just don't have the skills to reply short like you do LOL

about 18 years ago i wrote and article online about a U.S. President to be a moron and it cost me dearly (at least they thought it would while not really LOL)

further one just would have to imagine what the Nazi's would have had for advantage if they only had to sift through everyone's old post from a time when none of them was suspicious about what's coming?

it could well have changed things to the even worse.

etc. etc.

oren

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2019, 10:28:56 AM »
I normally avoid posting on hopeless matters, so this one is a rarity for me.

The US Political system and it's subservient Media is overflowing with Dual Loyalists who have repeatedly placed the interests of Israel the country, it's Economic Interests, and it's Israeli Governments far ahead of the Interests of the American people and the USA.

Which has repeatedly constantly operated above International Law, The United Nations consensus, and against Human Rights Law. It's a very very long list of Israeli Apologists infesting the BAU MIC Neocon Neoliberal empire building system of the USA.
I tend to agree. Just don't confuse the interests of the Israeli people with the interest of the Israeli government. The people are torn in half between racist/religious/brainwashed "right wing" and liberal/free thinking "left wing" with large minorities of Arab-Israelis and Orthodox Jews (I am very much simplifying matters of course), with the government constantly fanning hatred between any and all political and religious groups. The government's (=Netanyahu's) interest of course is to rule forever and avoid criminal prosecution at all costs.
The Occupation should have been ended a long time ago, and the more it continues the more fascist the country is becoming.

The Social Media Meme goes like this: Pro-Palestinian = Anti-Semitic
That's called a Non-Sequitur = it does not follow.
It's false. Another everyday example of Fake News.
I agree.

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2019, 09:18:27 AM »
 Corporations have created a new kind of marketplace out of our private human experiences. That is the conclusion of an explosive new book that argues big tech platforms like Facebook and Google are elephant poachers, and our personal data is ivory tusks.

Author Shoshana Zuboff writes in “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power”: “At its core, surveillance capitalism is parasitic and self-referential. It revives Karl Marx’s old image of capitalism as a vampire that feeds on labor, but with an unexpected turn. Instead of labor, surveillance capitalism feeds on every aspect of every human’s experience.”


ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2019, 10:06:16 AM »
Part 2


ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2019, 11:25:21 AM »
Quote
Facebook deliberately broke privacy and competition law and should urgently be subject to statutory regulation, according to a devastating parliamentary report denouncing the company and its executives as “digital gangsters”.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/facebook-fake-news-investigation-report-regulation-privacy-law-dcms

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/a-digital-gangster-destroying-democracy-the-damning-verdict-on-facebook

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8449366/facebook-digital-gangster-broke-law-mark-zuckerberg-fake-news/

https://www.businessinsider.sg/facebook-like-digital-gangsters-damian-collins-2019-2/?r=US&IR=T

Thank You America!

18 February 2019
UK Parliament - Disinformation and ‘fake news’: Final Report published 
The Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee has published its final report on Disinformation and ‘fake news’.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/news/fake-news-report-published-17-19/

Quote from #1 video - prepare to be educated better:

Quote
04:52
The key thing that I want our viewers to know is that surveillance capitalism doesn't stop at Facebook and right now it's a hugely positive development that we are looking at Facebook with this kind of scrutiny and perhaps moving to finally regulate this corporation -- but that is the beginning not the end of our challenge

Surveillance Capitalism is an economic logic that includes but moves far beyond Facebook at this point in time and so we are going to need the social response that addresses interrupts and outlaws this new economic logic not just a single company or not just a couple of companies

You write "a global architecture of behavior modification threatens human nature in the 21st century" explain.

All right well once you understand that surveillance capitalism is an economic logic it is not the same as technology this is one of the big lies that has been perpetrated that the these methodologies are the only way that digital technology can work that there's an inevitable-ist propaganda that has been fed to us so we need to pull these issues apart --

Ee have digital technology which we believed would be emancipatory empowering democratizing and it still can be -- in the last 20 years it has been overtaken hijacked by an economic logic whose economic imperatives put it on a collision course with democracy both from below and from above.

One of the things that surveillance capitalists learned is that the most powerful predictions of human behavior come from actually intervening in our behavior - touching our behavior to nudge to influence to tune to herd our behavior toward its commercial outcomes.

And what this has done is made them take hold of the digital media -- all of the devices beginning with our phones and our laptops but the sensors the facial recognition the smart dishwasher the smart television set the Smart TESLA car the Smart City all of this digital infrastructure now has been taken by surveillance capitalism as a way to nudge and tune and herd our behavior toward it's guaranteed outcomes.

It does this with subliminal cues it's a highly scientific process it does this in ways that it brags about are always outside of our awareness so that we have no right of combat we cannot resist we cannot say no and we cannot exit so this is what I call a global means of behavioural modification

We are essentially this great digital architecture that we've built in order to be an emancipatory and life-giving process for us and help us in our lives has now become commandeered by surveillance capitalism as a means to modify our behavior toward its commercial ends which is a direct assault on human autonomy.

A direct
assault on our decision rights a direct assault on the whole notion of individual sovereignty.

Back in the 1970s there was a US Senate committee that included people like Edward Kennedy and Sam Ervin these folks met for many months and they decided that behavioral modification was a pernicious action that it was a complete defiance of democratic principles and they decided that no federal money would fund any kind of program based on behavioral modification in prisons in schools and hospitals

Today the year 2019 we've just spent the last two decades whereas democracy slept the private sector under the aegis of surveillance capitalism has been able to command the digital to create literally ubiquitous means in behavioral modification without anybody saying no and without most of us even noticing or understanding what has occurred."

[end quotes]


Note: This should not come as any great surprise. This is not new news to me. That the UK report found what it found and said what it said is a surprise. The release of the new book by a "traditionalist" Institution with 7 years of research was able top be published in this way is also a surprise - but the contents aren't. The findings aren't. The urgent warnings are not a surprise.

That they are being sounded at all is a surprise so publicly - coming as it is from a Government Parliamentary Committee is very surprising - even for the UK. It would NEVER have come out of the US Congress that is for certain.

If something actually happens about this internationally I will possibly drop dead in shock though. But it is a start. It's a feint hope.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 04:25:08 AM by Lurk »

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2019, 04:25:34 AM »

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2019, 05:39:40 AM »
The Intercept
Streamed live on 1 Mar 2019
Join The Intercept’s senior correspondent Naomi Klein and Harvard Business School professor Shoshana Zuboff, author of “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power,” for an engaging discussion about the unprecedented form of power called “surveillance capitalism” and the quest by corporations to predict and control our behavior.


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2019, 11:40:51 AM »
Manipulating the YouTube Algorithm - (Part 1/3)


mabarnes

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2019, 11:23:54 AM »
It's old news of course, but at least someone in the US is talking about it this way once in a while.

The Final Battle in Big Tech’s War to Dominate Your World
Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Google are fighting for unbroken control of American life.
By David Dayen
April 9, 2019

Bellum omnium contra omnes is Latin for “the war of all against all.” Enlightenment thinkers like Thomas Hobbes used the phrase to describe the natural state of man in the absence of governmental authority. It’s also an accurate description of the U.S. economy right now, as some of its biggest corporations are left to their own devices.

Apple, Amazon, Facebook, and Google
are waging a war of all against all—a war for all of your time, all of your money, all of your worldly interactions and desires. They want to be your one indispensable partner for navigating life, and to get there, they must destroy one another.

If the government doesn’t step in, the American public will become collateral damage.

https://newrepublic.com/article/153515/final-battle-big-techs-war-dominate-world

The public are already the collateral damage.

I wholeheartedly agree, and hope everyone will focus on a simple solution:  Recognition of PRIVACY as a Civil Right, not to be violated without consent.  Meaning you OWN your personal information - content of posts, emails, etc, your location, and so on - outright, placing it into a legal regime similar to copyright - not to be violated without PER USE permission. 

One click on an 8000 word User Agreement would then not suffice to track your one's every move, log one's every click and post, and sell that information on to advertisers.  If they want to do that, fine - cut me in on the revenue?  At the very least, ask for permission.

How radical, eh.  Defining PROPERTY RIGHTS as a solution.  Cheers.

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2019, 05:02:33 AM »
Facebook expects record $5 BILLION fine from FTC over privacy violations
Published time: 25 Apr, 2019

Facebook has told investors it's probably on the hook for up to $5 billion in fines – a record-high penalty for a tech company in the US – as a Federal Trade Commission probe continues into its violations of users' privacy.

The FTC is investigating Facebook on charges it repeatedly and catastrophically failed to safeguard users' data, from allowing Cambridge Analytica to scrape 85 million users' information [ No, that wasn't the RUSSIANS - that was AMERICANS manipulating social media during the 2016 Campaign ] to permitting corporations like Microsoft and Netflix to access users' messages and other personal info as part of secret data sharing partnerships.

Investigators have reportedly found plentiful evidence that Facebook violated a 2011 FTC agreement requiring it to get permission from users before sharing their data with third parties – and to notify the FTC when third parties have misused this data.

While $5 billion may not seem like much next to the $15.1 billion in revenue Facebook has reported for the first quarter of 2019.............
https://www.rt.com/usa/457469-facebook-expects-billions-fine-ftc/


"I believe we need a more active role for governments and regulators," he wrote. "By updating the rules for the Internet, we can preserve what's best about it - the freedom for people to express themselves and for entrepreneurs to build new things - while also protecting society from broader harms."

Zuckerberg's missive was the most comprehensive the Facebook CEO has ever been on the issue of government regulation. His call comes as US federal prosecutors are reportedly probing Facebook's data sharing deals with a number of large technology companies. The US Federal Trade Commission is said to be in talks with Facebook over a possible record fine. And European officials continue to scrutinize the company.

Facebook was roundly condemned this month when it failed to stop a live stream by the suspect in the New Zealand terrorist attack that killed 50 people.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/30/tech/facebook-mark-zuckerberg-regulation/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/01/facebook-ceo-zuckerbergs-call-for-gdpr-privacy-laws-raises-questions.html

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2019, 06:48:18 AM »
Josh Hawley is the junior United States Senator from Missouri.
This essay was originally delivered as a speech at the Hoover Institution on May 2, 2019.


The Big Tech Threat
by Josh Hawley
5 . 9 . 19

Social media is challenging for us to grapple with because it presents so many novel problems, and none of them seem to have easy answers.

How do we preserve online data privacy for those using products whose very purpose is hyper-personalized service? How is it possible for big tech platforms to keep the digital public square pruned and free of criminal activity or other vices—without inserting their own political or content biases? What does competition even look like in this space? That is a really tough question. After all, the supposed value of this space for consumers is a kind of integration—an integration of various services and various platforms, various lines of business all in place.

These are largely the questions of the day on Capitol Hill. I have my views on each of them. They are rightly the subject of serious debate, and I hope that debate will continue and grow.

But I want to suggest to you today that all of those questions are downstream of a larger one, a bigger question which I think we ought to be devoting more time to as a society and which I want to talk with you about briefly. It is the question of the worth of these social media platforms and the social media business model. What is its actual worth to the American economy and to American society?

One of the most difficult things about acting in this area is the fear that any significant change in this space, any significant adjustment to the rules of the road—whether it be privacy requirements or content requirements—might end up stifling Silicon Valley, which we are told is the great crown jewel of the American economy. But is it? It is heresy to say that here, with Stanford University over my shoulder, but is Silicon Valley—the platforms, the products, the business models it has been giving us of late—really the best that our best minds have to offer?

My thesis is that the evidence strongly suggests there is something deeply troubling, maybe even deeply wrong, with the entire social media economy. My thesis is that it does not represent a source of strength for America’s tomorrow, but is rather a source of peril. [...]

Social media only works as a business model if it consumes users’ time and attention day after day after day. It needs to replace the various activities we did perfectly well without social media, for the entire known history of the human race, with itself.

It needs to replace those activities with time spent on social media. Addiction is actually the point. That’s what social media shareholders are investing in: the addiction of users.


cont'
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/05/the-big-tech-threat
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 06:58:49 AM by Lurk »

bbr2314

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2019, 01:00:55 AM »
I think this is incorrect. It is addictive but they are not investing in addiction.

Since the Middle Ages, the time of every man has become increasingly profitable to society at large (and detrimental to man, if used incorrectly). In 1500, a peasant worked on a farm six days a week of 10 hours apiece, (or whatever it was), but beyond that point, their time was generally their own, giving them ~7 hours a day of free time assuming 7 hours sleep.

By 1940, jobs were 50 hours or so a week, five days a week in the "developed" world. While work had dwindled down 10 hrs / week from 1500, the increasing abundance of free time was only partially monetized through media companies (cinema etc).

By 2020, jobs will be down to 30-40/hours a week (ACTUAL hours worked) in most developed places. At this point workers have 9 hours a day of "free time" on weekdays and full freedom on weekends (79 hrs/ week vs. 59 hrs/week in 1500).

But WHAT does man do with that free time in 2020? He now has to commute a long distance in many cases. And if he is not commuting he is glued to a computer teleworking.

Most importantly, in the hours one is not glued to a screen for work, one is glued to a screen for other reasons (leisure). I think this is the big reason we have seen social media become a dominant force so successfully. It is the monetization of one of the last vacant portions of man's normal life. Leisure is no longer an escape from work for most people, it is simply adjusting the treadmill to "light".

Sleepy

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2019, 05:19:53 AM »
There are still different people, treadmill adjusted to Eliud Kipchoge's pace.



A bit more on topic and a personal reflection, I think there is a slight shift in attitudes going on and there are signs here of people waking up when they see what too much online time do to their children. Hmm, what am I doing here in front of a screen, the sun's coming up.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

ASILurker

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2019, 07:15:03 AM »
This post by sidd seems awfully related .... to my last post - was going to snip some of the text but I couldn't decide what to cut, so left it all.

Turner at LRB with a retrospective on Mark Fisher, a writer who refused to go on.

" Mark Fisher killed himself on 13 January 2017 ..."

‘It’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism’

‘Capitalism is what is left when beliefs have collapsed.’

" ‘The catastrophe,’ as Fisher puts it, ‘is neither waiting down the road, nor has it already happened. Rather, it is being lived through "

"  Business Ontology, which is the idea that ‘it is simply obvious that everything in society, including healthcare and education, should be run as a business’; Market Stalinism, the terrifying proliferation of performative paperwork across the public services ..."

" the ‘mental health plague’ in capitalist societies suggests that ‘instead of being the only social system that works, capitalism is inherently dysfunctional, and the cost of it appearing to work is very high.’ The ‘privatisation of stress’, he suspects, is what’s really behind the epidemic of adolescent unhappiness. ‘Affective disorders are forms of captured discontent.’ "

" His students, he writes, knew perfectly well that their prospects were poor, and that there was nothing they could do  ... in a state that he calls ‘reflexive impotence’, a bored, depressed, withdrawn suspension. And the impotence of course becomes reflexive in that by acting powerless you make your powerlessness come true. Clinical depression, unsurprisingly, was ‘endemic’, as were specific learning difficulties. More generally, the teenagers Fisher taught seemed to be ‘in a state of what I would call depressive hedonia … [unable] to do anything else except pursue pleasure’, slumping, snoozing, snacking. "

"    Ask students to read for more than a couple of sentences and many … will protest that they can’t do it. The most frequent complaint teachers hear is that it’s boring … To be bored simply means to be removed from the communicative sensation-stimulus matrix of texting, YouTube and fast food; to be denied, for a moment, the constant flow of sugary gratification on demand. Some students want Nietzsche in the same way that they want a hamburger; they fail to grasp – and the logic of the consumer system encourages this misapprehension – that the indigestibility, the difficulty is Nietzsche."

"The pressure on teachers becomes ‘intolerable’. It’s their job to cram word-based content into the increasingly ‘post-lexic’ heads of their students; it’s also their job to fill in when families are ‘buckling under the pressure of a capitalism that requires both parents to work’."

"in the infernally paradoxical logic of depression, I was simulating it in order to conceal the fact that I was not capable of working, and that there was no place at all for me in society."

"Consider all those brilliant youngsters who loved school, studied hard and went off in the highest spirits to college or university, thinking there was a world out there that would welcome them, encourage and support them in their learning, give them jobs as scholars and teachers. That world started snapping shut in the 1980s and has gone on getting smaller and smaller, meaner and meaner, closer and closer to shutting down completely. Fisher seems to be describing a feeling of superfluousness; these young people, like the superfluous men of Russia in the 19th century, were being educated for jobs that no longer existed. Superfluous: ‘the experience of modern masses’ as described by Hannah Arendt."

" ‘And yet, I don’t wish I was living forty years ago. The point seems to be: this is the world we were all afraid of, but it’s also sort of the world we wanted.’ And if we decide now that, after all, we don’t like it, we’re not allowed to take it back. "

Read the whole thing:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n09/jenny-turner/not-no-longer-but-not-yet

The reference in the article to "Exiting the Vampire Castle" is at

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

Quite a stinging expose of social media, vampirism, class as opposed to identity, and how these divisions are exploited.

sidd


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2019, 05:55:45 AM »
Let's talk about a third of migrants lying about their kids....


be cause

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2019, 06:53:37 PM »
  well told .. meanwhile 100% of Christians lie to their kids .. its the Santa clause .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2019, 02:32:41 PM »
Steven Crowder Too Anti-Gay For YouTube?


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2019, 09:06:44 AM »
Sam Seder Dives Deep On Steven Crowder (... and how Jimmy Dore isn't helpful for the debate (once again).)


Neven

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2019, 01:34:39 PM »
Sam Seder Dives Deep On Steven Crowder (... and how Jimmy Dore isn't helpful for the debate (once again).)

It's easy for Sam Seder to say 'demonetize everything political on YT', because when push comes to shove, Seder is a politically correct establishment guy who will get paid more easily, in some other way. You can see some mild pushback from Michael Brooks after about minute 20, concerning the larger implications. Michael Brooks is somewhat better/more interesting than Sam Seder, but thinks he knows everything and thus talks too much. After that Sam Seder goes off on Jimmy Dore, which says more about him than about Dore.

His argument boils down to: If we suppress gay-bashing, it will be easier/safer for kids to come out of the closet. This is such nonsense. You fight bad ideas with better ideas, not by suppressing them and letting them go underground. What Seder says, is intellectually weak and morally wrong.

At the end, Michael Brooks says: "I don't think our channel should be financially demonetized. I'm just sitting with that idea and I don't like it. It's not solid thinking." So, he gets it. He understands that Seder will be fine and he won't be, if political journalism channels get demonetized on social media. Seder would've shown some balls if he had said: Take us all off social media and all media in general, to save the kids from bad ideas.  But he's not saying that. He's advocating for financially ruining people so they can't do alternative journalism anymore. Because that's what this will all lead to.

Either way, I think both Jimmy Dore (and co) and Kyle Kulinski have a much better understanding of the dangers of arbitrary, opaque corporate censuring:



Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2019, 03:18:22 PM »
Neven, the points i took away from this video are somewhat similar to yours i.e. i'm more supportive of what Michael said. I don't know who's right and who's wrong in this 'censorship' debate if it was about me, YouTube (and of course FB, WA, IG, Twitter) would be curated and public entities.

Nonetheless, the main thing that stood out for me was Jimmy's whataboutism. It's something i picked up a long time ago and made me unsubscribe to his channel. "What about the dying kids in Jemen??" Are you kidding me, sidekick? And Jimmy just plays along. These are tactics straight out of the alt-right playbook.

Neven

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2019, 04:12:34 PM »
Nonetheless, the main thing that stood out for me was Jimmy's whataboutism. It's something i picked up a long time ago and made me unsubscribe to his channel. "What about the dying kids in Jemen??" Are you kidding me, sidekick? And Jimmy just plays along.

It stood out for you because that's what Seder cherrypicked and kept repeating. Dore doesn't go into it because he's busy making a different point, in a live stream where they talk for hours about lots of things.

As for the whataboutism: It's not so much whataboutism, as it is about putting into perspective Maza's complaint that his family has to see what Crowder is saying about him (they don't, just as the family of any public person has to watch all the BS). Whataboutism would've been: A lot of alt right people are made fun of by lefties, boohoohoo.

Seder then turns this quote by Dore's sidekick into something it is not. But even if it were: Somebody says something stupid, so now we discuss that instead of Dore's main arguments that are much stronger and more consistent than those of Seder?

Now, that's a tactic straight out of the alt-right playbook.
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mabarnes

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2019, 04:27:48 PM »
The latest round of Book Burning … not going to end well....

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2019, 04:50:05 PM »
It stood out for you because that's what Seder cherrypicked and kept repeating.

No, as mentioned above, it stood out to me because i noticed it before with him. I can see such things on my own, i don't need any youtuber for that.

Quote
It's not so much whataboutism, as it is about putting into perspective

Sorry, hard disagreement on that one.

Also, i don't think Jimmy made any substantial point besides him being in fear of being demonetized as well.

Klondike Kat

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2019, 04:55:28 PM »
The latest round of Book Burning … not going to end well....

Agreed.  This is similar to what Neven posted.  Suppressing ideas, even bad ones, is not the answer.  The more something is suppressed, the greater the desire to reach it.  Rather, promoting good ideas, especially truthful ones, will win out. 

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2019, 05:08:18 PM »
So you guys think the book burnings and demonisation of youtube bigots is the same thing?

The book burnings are acts of censorship by oppressive regimes.
Youtube is a private company with TOSs. Not destroying the speech, but stops paying for them.

I can see subtle differences here.

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2019, 05:33:07 PM »
I agree the analogy is flawed.

But there's a huge problem when private entities control public forums in ways that aren't transparent or consistent. Who gets censured, is irrelevant. It's a matter of principle.

The Jimmy Dore video (not the short excerpt by Sam Seder), as well as the Kyle Kulinski video (more detail) I posted, explain very well why that is.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2019, 05:43:52 PM »
But there's a huge problem when private entities control public forums in ways that aren't transparent or consistent. Who gets censured, is irrelevant. It's a matter of principle.

Yep! if it was about me, there would be no private entities running any kind of infrastructure.

Quote
The Jimmy Dore video (not the short excerpt by Sam Seder), as well as the Kyle Kulinski video (more detail) I posted, explain very well why that is.

I didn't watched the Dore video, sorry. He's a done deal for me, i can't take him seriously anymore.

With Kyle, i often times agree and i take him seriously. I absolutely don't share his radical free speech approach though.

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2019, 11:05:48 PM »
“Where they burn books, they will also ultimately burn people.”  -- Heine


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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2019, 11:48:28 PM »
Joe Rogan had David Pakman on his show a couple of days ago, and from around minute 43 onwards they discuss the Crowder stuff and its wider implications. Pakman, also a politically correct establishment-type guy, goes about it in a smarter (or more insidious) way than Seder, positing the (imo weak) argument that YouTube is a private company and should be able to do whatever it wants, and that this is actually a right-wing position because it's against government intervention. But Rogan starts cornering him at some point, after around the 1 hour mark, after Pakman engages in some really bad analogies (worse than the one about burning books).
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Neven

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2019, 02:15:58 PM »
So, here's the problem:



This is the slippery slope. It starts with Alex Jones and Steven Crowder, and then it moves on to Jimmy Dore (which I'm sure many people here will cheer on), and it only ends when there are no more opposing voices to establishment narratives at the behest of the financial elites. I guess this is the solution to the total lack of trust in mainstream, corporate media.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2019, 02:56:00 PM »
David Pakman Debunks Joe Rogan's View On YouTube Bias

Video shows nicely how people on the left are demonetized all the time and no one ever talks about it.

When someone on the right is demonetized, all hell breaks loose. Go figure...


Neven

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2019, 12:04:14 AM »
Listen to Greenwald and ignore the rest:

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b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2019, 02:40:39 PM »
No free pass for hate speech. I love that!

Go SWEDEN! \o/

mabarnes

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2019, 05:34:26 PM »
Wow.  Rather than comment about the law and human rights - here, Free Speech - I think I'll let this do the explaining far better. 

When it comes to government force policing speech, I would recommend extreme caution ... careful what you wish for, ladies and gents....


b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2019, 06:40:24 PM »
I don't understand why Americans think so highly of their radical free speech law. It's bullshit!

In no aspect of life do people see punishment for bad behaviour as a bad thing, but when it comes to speech, everyone is an ultra free speech advocate all of a sudden.

Why wouldn't you regulate malicious speech as well?

When you can say anything you want, you are allowed to lie. And this it cancer, killing our world.

Free speech allows the Kochs to manipulate the whole world through marketing. Free speech brought us climate change denial. Free speech stands for misinformation by the rich and powerful. Heck, even the people ruling us are lied to and make wrong decisions because of that.

You shouldn't be allowed to lie about something that's scientifically proven.
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed.

What is so radical with those rules?

forkyfork

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2019, 07:04:11 PM »
I don't understand why Americans think so highly of their radical free speech law. It's bullshit!

In no aspect of life do people see punishment for bad behaviour as a bad thing, but when it comes to speech, everyone is an ultra free speech advocate all of a sudden.

Why wouldn't you regulate malicious speech as well?

When you can say anything you want, you are allowed to lie. And this it cancer, killing our world.

Free speech allows the Kochs to manipulate the whole world through marketing. Free speech brought us climate change denial. Free speech stands for misinformation by the rich and powerful. Heck, even the people ruling us are lied to and make wrong decisions because of that.

You shouldn't be allowed to lie about something that's scientifically proven.
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed.

What is so radical with those rules?
the conservative agenda depends on the ability to spread lies

Pragma

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2019, 07:11:23 PM »
the conservative agenda depends on the ability to spread lies

As does just about any and every other agenda I have ever seen.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2019, 07:14:47 PM »
As does just about any and every other agenda I have ever seen.

And? What's the result of that? What do you see?

Do you see an enlightened world or rather a dystopia?

For what i can see, lies and bullshit rule the world.

So tell me, what is radical free speech worth when this is the outcome?

Pragma

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2019, 07:47:25 PM »
As does just about any and every other agenda I have ever seen.

And? What's the result of that? What do you see?

Do you see an enlightened world or rather a dystopia?

For what i can see, lies and bullshit rule the world.

So tell me, what is radical free speech worth when this is the outcome?

My point was to highlight a false dichotomy. Forkyfork was implying that only conservatives lie, or that they are the only ones with an agenda, or perhaps everyone lies, except for the particular "ism" that he or she happens to adhere to. I can't be sure, exactly, but it struck me as very naive.

I think it is safe to say that the statement in itself had an agenda, and not by lies, but by omission, another form of dishonesty.

As to your question, being a controls engineer, I know that bad things happen when there is no feedback to a system. In society, for stability to occur, these must be some form of correction, the actors must have some skin in the game.

I think that lying is not the problem. The problem is that there is no penalty when a person does harm to an individual or society. I could fill up this entire forum with examples of where powerful people have lied, bald faced, costing billions of dollars and millions of lives. Many of them are now happily and wealthily retired, with no repercussions.

Lying is not good, but it's a question of harm. Do we punish or prosecute flat earthers? How about we haul most religions off to court?

Goldman Sachs, among others lied their face off, and admitted that they lied and broke the law. For their efforts, (besides obscene profits) they got billions from the government.

So, I suggest to you that you are putting the cart before the horse. Lying is not the problem.

*edit* typos
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 08:04:19 PM by Pragma »

mabarnes

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2019, 07:51:05 PM »

You shouldn't be allowed to lie about something that's scientifically proven.
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed.

What is so radical with those rules?

The point is, the issue is, WHO DECIDES...? 

Do you trust your government to decide what is true, what is false?  Whether Iraq really has WMD's?  Whether it's hate speech to call THEM liars...?

Ever read the opposing "press" on Adams and Jefferson during their first Presidential contest?  In 1800, the candidates ... well, Adams himself called Jefferson ""a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

Should an agency of government "stepped in" to punish him for hate speech?  What if his father was not "mulatto" ... who would decide if that was proven true, or false?

As they used to say, "Who's watching the Watchers?"

I hope this gives a bit of the argument - the consensus from American jurisprudence is that ALL speech is legal, except when DIRECTLY causing violence or destruction.  You can't say "Somebody shoot that hateful <pick a person> now!" ... but you can say "I hope <pick a person> dies soon."

The "cure" for hate speech and lies is, in American tradition, MORE SPEECH.  Proving people wrong, condemning their lies, exposing them.  That's not perfect of course, in fact sure, it's the worst system ... EXCEPT, to paraphrase a famous Brit, for all the others....

(I really do recommend reading about the 1800 Adams-Jefferson race ... it's very interesting.)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2019, 08:03:23 PM »
My point was to highlight a false dichotomy. Forkyfork was implying that only conservatives lie, or that they are the only ones with an agenda,

I get that. But which side wins? Are the scientists who win the public opinion or the oil industry who manipulates with lies? And what's so wrong with the agenda of scientists? Having an agenda is not bad. Lying is.

Quote
or perhaps everyone lies, except for the particular "ism" that he or she happens to adhere to. I can't be sure, exactly, but it struck me as very naive.

This is not about freedom of opinion. Everyone should have their isms. This is about freedom of spreading lies. When your ism only works, when you can lie about it, what's it worth anyway?

Quote
As to your question, being a controls engineer, I know that bad things happen when there is no feedback to a system. In society, for stability to occur, these must be some form of correction, the actors must have some skin in the game.

Yes, i agree completely. But how are lies and hate speech meaningful feedback systems? 

Quote
I think that lying is not the problem. The problem is that there is no penalty when a person does harm to an individual or society. I could fill up this entire forum with examples of where powerful people have lied, bald faced, costing billions of dollars and millions of lives. Many of them are now happily and wealthily retired, with no repercussions.

Correct. A great argument for my point actually. ;)

Quote
Goldman Sachs, among others lied their face off, and admitted that they lied and broke the law. For their efforts, (besides obscene profits) they got billions from the government.

Only in America...  ::)

Quote
So, I suggest to you that you are putting the cart before the horse. Lying is not the problem.

I don't follow your conclusion. But you are free to have your opinion (which is a good thing).

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2019, 08:12:59 PM »
Hate speech is a No-No in Canada, and it works out fairly well. In the UK there are very strict civil penalties for slander and libel. I see these as improvements over the free for all "Free Speech" so often results in.
Terry

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2019, 08:21:57 PM »
The point is, the issue is, WHO DECIDES...? 

I knew this question would come, i had this debate before. ;)

Among other things, in Germany, it is forbidden to deny the Holocaust. The allies gave us this law after the war. The US was one of the allies.

Quote
Do you trust your government to decide what is true, what is false?

I trust experts. The government can ask experts. But the government wouldn't decide actually. A judge would. And they could also ask an expert.

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Whether Iraq really has WMD's?  Whether it's hate speech to call THEM liars...?

... As they used to say, "Who's watching the Watchers?"


Well, you obviously need democracy in the first place. With working checks and balances, with a separation of power, and of course, a system where you have 'one vote, one person'. The US checks none of those boxes sadly. So no, here you would have to fix the country first.

Quote
Ever read the opposing "press" on Adams and Jefferson during their first Presidential contest?  In 1800, the candidates ... well, Adams himself called Jefferson ""a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father.

Should an agency of government "stepped in" to punish him for hate speech?  What if his father was not "mulatto" ... who would decide if that was proven true, or false?

I don't glorify the founding fathers. The US constitution is ancient and needs modernisation.

And no, i don't think you should punish dead people.



Quote
The "cure" for hate speech and lies is, in American tradition, MORE SPEECH.

Well, that turned out not so well, right?

Quote
Proving people wrong, condemning their lies, exposing them.

Exactly. That's what i'm for. And when the lying is not stopping, you have a judge on your side helping your argument. Just like it is with other things in life.

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2019, 08:29:06 PM »
fact checking lies does not work in the US. look at all the people who still think obama was born in kenya

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2019, 08:30:32 PM »
Hate speech is a No-No in Canada, and it works out fairly well. In the UK there are very strict civil penalties for slander and libel. I see these as improvements over the free for all "Free Speech" so often results in.
Terry

Word, Terry! :)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2019, 08:35:16 PM »
fact checking lies does not work in the US. look at all the people who still think obama was born in kenya

Yeah sure! What if it was forbidden to lie like that? Would this lie be so powerful than or maybe it would have never existed in this form?

You do see we are running in circles here?

Pragma

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2019, 08:37:22 PM »

This is not about freedom of opinion. Everyone should have their isms. This is about freedom of spreading lies. When your ism only works, when you can lie about it, what's it worth anyway?

To the person with the ism, often a great deal. Status, money, power and ego, and it's more the rule than the exception.

Quote
As to your question, being a controls engineer, I know that bad things happen when there is no feedback to a system. In society, for stability to occur, these must be some form of correction, the actors must have some skin in the game.

Quote
Yes, i agree completely. But how are lies and hate speech meaningful feedback systems?

You miss my point, I never said that they were. I address this below, and you agree with me. 

Quote
I think that lying is not the problem. The problem is that there is no penalty when a person does harm to an individual or society. I could fill up this entire forum with examples of where powerful people have lied, bald faced, costing billions of dollars and millions of lives. Many of them are now happily and wealthily retired, with no repercussions.

Correct. A great argument for my point actually. ;)

Quote
So, I suggest to you that you are putting the cart before the horse. Lying is not the problem.

Quote
I don't follow your conclusion. But you are free to have your opinion (which is a good thing).

Again I am confused, because when I said above, lying is not the problem, you said "correct".

To expand on that, the problem is that:

- We only get upset about lies, (or perceived lies) when they don't mesh with our world view.

- When people lie and cause harm, we usually tolerate it.

- If lying didin't have benefits, people and government wouldn't do it.

Human beings lie. It is in our nature, as are many other unsociable traits. It's how we deal with it, or not, is the issue, IMHO.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2019, 09:03:27 PM »
To the person with the ism, often a great deal. Status, money, power and ego, and it's more the rule than the exception.

What i don't want are ideologies that only work with lies. I want Centrism to be gone. I want Naziism to be gone.

I want enlightenment, logic and reason ruling this world, not big money and their despicable interests. Give me another thing that brings us towards this goal, and i listen.

But this is an issue, it is important. Free speech radicalism is certifiably wrong!

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You miss my point, I never said that they were. I address this below, and you agree with me.
 

Sorry, i actually missed that.

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Again I am confused, because when I said above, lying is not the problem, you said "correct".

Lying is a problem for all the reasons mentioned. The problem is, that there is no skin in the game as you pointed out.

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Human beings lie. It is in our nature, as are many other unsociable traits. It's how we deal with it, or not, is the issue, IMHO.

Killing and stealing and cheating are also in our nature. How do we deal with it? In order to have a society, we have rules. Why no rules on speech?

gerontocrat

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Re: The problem of social media
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2019, 09:16:52 PM »
- If lying didn't have benefits, people and government wouldn't do it.

Human beings lie. It is in our nature, as are many other unsociable traits. It's how we deal with it, or not, is the issue, IMHO.
"- If lying didn't have benefits, people and government wouldn't do it."

Who gets the Benefits? Exxon,  the Koch Bros, Goldman & Sachs...............
Who pays the price. Shit, that's me.

A society built on lies will fail?
Many of us believe that our society will fail because AGW was lied about successfully for too many years. It's too late, pal.

Some of us believe that people are lying to themselves when they say if/when AGW gets fixed sustainable economic growth can continue until ....... But fixing AGW won't fix the 6th Mass Extinction.

Lying gives short-term advantage to some and long-term disadvantage to most.
It is a pity that the mainstream media (Fox, Sky, Murdoch Press) have encouraged the habit and taught us that it's OK.

But it is done. Pandora opened the box storage jar some time ago and let out the ooh nasties. Did she manage to put the lid back on quickly enough to keep "hope" in the jar?
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