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Adam Ash

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2018, 01:31:42 AM »
:)  Nice! and I trust you are measuring ice lead widths in milliparsecs and field velocity in furlongs per fortnight too, following the dictum that all variables in technical papers shall be defined in the most inconvenient unit possible! 


slow wing

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2018, 05:47:52 AM »
21 May. so we're one month before the summer solstice.

Maybe a good date to flag about when the amount of cloud cover in the Arctic Basin Proper has become really important?

I don't worry too much about the Arctic sea ice outside the central Basin because that is going to melt out anyway.

Roughly speaking, cloud cover insulates the ice from the sky. It's true you can have different types of cloud cover that might not do that well for the shorter wave insulation (direct sunlight coming down) or the longer wave thermal radiation coming up - but we won't make that distinction here.

In the Winter, cloud insulation traps the heat in from draining to the sky, so it works against the ice thickening. However, growth in ice thickness slows down anyway as the ice gets thicker and so itself better insulates heat from escaping from the water underneath to the sky above. So the eventual ice thickness at the end of the freezing season won't have been affected too much by how much cloud cover there has been in the winter.

In the (late) Spring, at the start of the melt season, it's more of a balance between cloud stopping the thermal radiation going up and the cloud stopping the increasing amounts of sunlight from reaching the ice.

But by now, that balance should be progressively tipping in favor of the latter. Less clouds will allow more sunlight down to heat up the ice. Also, as the snow & ice on top begins to melt and the sunlight can begin to shine on liquid water, the ice will just be beginning to become less reflective and instead absorb a greater fraction of the incident solar energy.

    So what I'm suggesting is it's starting to become important to watch, e.g. Worldview, to see the amount of cloud cover over the central Arctic Basin.

 Less clouds also tends to correlate with high pressure. So we can also watch the forecasts for more high pressure.

   Concerning other heat sources that can melt the ice - warm winds and water being carried into the Arctic - the Summer also heats up that air and water more, & it brings bigger heat engines to potentially blow it into the Arctic basin.


   So it's been interesting already, but I hereby proclaim that the really interesting part of the melt season officially begins today.  :P
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 05:56:24 AM by slow wing »

johnm33

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2018, 11:39:21 PM »
Re ' underlying physics' https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2274.msg153218.html#msg153218
ATeam did this great animation which more or less illustrates what I was trying to say, I downloaded and slowed it down some if you do the same you'll see very little ice rotating back into the pack between the pole and Greenland, but when it does there always seems to be a concurrent flow through Nares.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2278.0;attach=101142

Coffee Drinker

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2018, 05:11:32 AM »
Apparently there is still good snow cover in Newfoundland and large parts of Quebec. Hard to imagine considering its end of May and their latitude (same as Paris for example).
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=gfs&var=47&run=18&time=0&lid=OP&h=0&mv=0&tr=3#mapref

Shared Humanity

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2018, 03:09:10 PM »
We know that SWE is historically high for this region. I am not sure if this is true for extent.

The comment about this area being the same latitude as Paris is appropriately meaningless as it ignores entirely the climate of the planet.

Daniel B.

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2018, 03:58:02 PM »
Grand Falls, Newfoundland received 30 cm of snow yesterday, with the possibility of more tonight. 

binntho

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2018, 04:27:49 PM »
The comment about this area being the same latitude as Paris is appropriately meaningless as it ignores entirely the climate of the planet.

I'm not sure how a factual statement can be "meaningless", and "the climate of the planet" is exactly what the factual statement regarding latitude is highlighting, i.e. how the oceans can have vastly different effects on areas receiving the same amount of solar irradiation on a yearly basis. Which is of course extremely topical for our discussions on the future of sea ice.

So perhaps it should have been in another thread, e.g. "highly meaningful melting season chatter".
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Shared Humanity

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2018, 04:56:27 PM »
Grand Falls, Newfoundland received 30 cm of snow yesterday, with the possibility of more tonight.

I suspect this is unusual although not certain as I don't follow weather there. It could also very well be a new normal for this region as our climate changes.

(Now I've gone and done it and actually read one of your comments.)  :o

gerontocrat

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2018, 05:13:58 PM »
We know that SWE is historically high for this region. I am not sure if this is true for extent.

The attached image (part)  from https://www.ccin.ca/ccw/snow/current shows that the NE corner of Canada has both extent well above average (indicated by the red line) and above average depth. Parts of Eurasia are the same, both being the remains of a somewhat unique snowfall event over winter 2017-18.

Hudson Sea has been slow to melt, and even the St. Lawrence melt has stalled over the last couple of weeks, perhaps as a result of the persistent cold in that part of N. America.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2018, 05:31:22 PM »
...Hudson Sea has been slow to melt, and even the St. Lawrence melt has stalled over the last couple of weeks, perhaps as a result of the persistent cold in that part of N. America.

I've been thinking of WACCy weather as the land just warming slower than the ocean, but it is true there will be more snowfall, so I guess it can be more unstable too.

Ktb

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #111 on: June 02, 2018, 03:47:47 PM »
The Slater projection has been given the appropriate TLC and is functional once again. Currently predicting extent of 7.62 million km^2 on July 22
And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.
- Ishmael

binntho

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2018, 08:39:49 AM »
Anybody looking for a chilling summer read could do worse than checking out Dan Simmons' "The Terror" based on the Franklin expedition.

It's actually a very good book and (except for the occasional supernatural monster) feels very authentic.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

HapHazard

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2018, 09:01:07 PM »
Anybody looking for a chilling summer read could do worse than checking out Dan Simmons' "The Terror" based on the Franklin expedition.

It's actually a very good book and (except for the occasional supernatural monster) feels very authentic.

The TV series is surprisingly excellent, as well. Great acting, and they really nailed the ambiance, too.

For those who don't know (although considering this forum, most here probably do), the title is a ship's name: HMS Terror, which was the 2nd ship (along with HMS Erebus) of the Franklin expedition, seeking the northwest passage in 1845... but never returned.
If I call you out but go no further, the reason is Brandolini's law.

gerontocrat

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2018, 08:08:23 PM »
I've been thinking. Bad idea.

Lots of stuff as usual about June cliffs, July Cliffs, August cliffs (no doubt to come) and so on.

But I am thinking is not the story "A Winters Tale". Looking at seas like the Bering and Barents, the biggest losses are in winter ice. So I've had a look at freezing seasons over the last decade or so from JAXA extent data.

It would seem that in the last few years freeze has dropped quite significantly. Here is the table that includes a reckless look forward to the 2019 maximum.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

RealityCheck

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2018, 08:00:40 AM »

It would seem that in the last few years freeze has dropped quite significantly. Here is the table that includes a reckless look forward to the 2019 maximum.

Hi Gerontocrat. You assume 4.7m km2 minimum for 2018, if my basic maths are correct? Which is a fair starting point I reckon alright...
So I also assume this is another 'theory that belongs to me'...of yours, of course! If you're right, you could be called prophetic in 8 months time... :)
Sic transit gloria mundi

Shared Humanity

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2018, 01:19:35 PM »
I think you are spot on. The long term trend towards warmer winters and weaker freeze is setting the stage for a truly exciting melt season sometime in the next few years. And SIE is only part of the story as average thickness at maximum is shrinking as well.

gerontocrat

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2018, 01:33:03 PM »
Hullo Reality and Shared. (We are on first name terms?)

Thanks for the comments. I am still looking at the methodology as I did the work very late after a long day.  I should have done the work using NSIDC extent and area data to go back to 1979.  I have also made a mirror image of the NSIDC daily extent and area spreadsheets with daily PIOMAS data. I wonder if the volume data will show a similar outcome.

But all that will have to wait a bit - maybe after July data comes out. Not enough hours in the day.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

RealityCheck

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2018, 03:03:21 PM »
Thanks Gerontocrat
I am happy to go by RC...:)
RC
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2018, 06:28:47 PM »
I'm good with SH.

CalamityCountdown

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2018, 07:49:57 PM »
It appears the Santa's North Pole workshop may be developing a serious tilt, as the ice seems be becoming a bit slushy at the North Pole. But, on a serious note, the change between the image Gerontocrat posted 2 days ago  (Reply #2352 on: July 26, 2018 on the 2018 Season Melting thread) and today's NSIDC Sea Ice Concentration map show a stunning degree of change around the North Pole hole and throughout much of the Arctic.

Compare to the Ice Concentration map from 2 days ago
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2278.msg164597.html#msg164597

uniquorn

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2018, 01:40:53 AM »
Windy has a rather ominous forecast for next friday

Ktb

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2018, 09:29:00 AM »
I would just like to point out that the common misconception "sea ice melting will not raise sea level" is just so, a misconception.

The paper The melting of floating ice raises the ocean level by Peter D. Noerdlinger and Kay R. Brower, circa 2007. The paper was published in Geophysical Journal International.

The two key quotes: "It is shown that the melting of ice floating on the ocean will introduce a volume of water about 2.6 per cent greater than that of the originally displaced sea water." and "If all the extant sea ice and floating shelf ice melted, the global sea level would rise about 4 cm."

So while the complete melting of all arctic and antarctic sea ice would result in a negligible (compared to Greenland and Antarctica) 4cm rise in global sea level; we know that this could not take place as even with a BOE in the arctic, we would have another 18+million KM^2 in the antarctic.

https://academic.oup.com/gji/article/170/1/145/2019346 -- the full paper for those interested.

And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.
- Ishmael

oren

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2018, 10:42:20 AM »
The two key quotes: "It is shown that the melting of ice floating on the ocean will introduce a volume of water about 2.6 per cent greater than that of the originally displaced sea water." and "If all the extant sea ice and floating shelf ice melted, the global sea level would rise about 4 cm."
So I just read this, I know basically nothing on the subject. But what I couldn't manage to verify is whether they took into account the small freshening of the ocean while the salinization of the meltwater takes place, and whether it might compensate for the claimed volume increase.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2018, 02:02:01 PM »
Melting doesn't raise volume much because of displacement, but any water temperature above 4 degrees makes a difference.

binntho

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2018, 02:24:33 PM »
Melting doesn't raise volume much because of displacement, but any water temperature above 4 degrees makes a difference.

That graph had me confused - at first I thought, "hang on, ice begins to sink again before reaching -10 centigrades?"

But there is a discontinuity that is not very clearly marked, the vertical (y) axis should be broken and not continuous.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

harpy

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2018, 05:59:42 PM »
Is there an updated sea ice concentration graph for August 9th?

Archimid

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #127 on: August 10, 2018, 03:34:37 AM »
If that graph is correct, then I learned something new that I should have known. Is the sea level change due to the annual melt/freeze cycle measured anywhere?
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Phil.

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #128 on: August 10, 2018, 05:06:50 AM »
Melting doesn't raise volume much because of displacement, but any water temperature above 4 degrees makes a difference.

This is for freshwater not seawater which has maximum density at the freezing point, here's the data for seawater:

http://sam.ucsd.edu/sio210/gifimages/dens.gif

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
Melting doesn't raise volume much because of displacement, but any water temperature above 4 degrees makes a difference.

This is for freshwater not seawater which has maximum density at the freezing point, here's the data for seawater:

http://sam.ucsd.edu/sio210/gifimages/dens.gif

OK then, any water temperature above freezing makes a difference.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2018, 02:12:24 PM »
If that graph is correct, then I learned something new that I should have known. Is the sea level change due to the annual melt/freeze cycle measured anywhere?

The change due to the cycle is probably too small to measure, but the change due to the change in ocean temperature has been the main cause of sea level rise.

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/impacts/causes-of-sea-level-rise.html

Quote
Rising temperatures are warming ocean waters, which expand as the temperature increases. This thermal expansion was the main driver of global sea level rise for 75 - 100 years after the start of the Industrial Revolution, though its relative contribution has declined as the shrinking of land ice has accelerated.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2018, 06:39:08 PM »
There was some 'discussion' about the effect smoke had on the Arctic, specifically, if smoky air was 'warmed' due to the source of the smoke (here and earlier) with a recommendation to redirect here.  So, I did some internet searching.  Nothing about smoky air being warm, but there was this gem from ScienceDaily:
Quote
...
Highly sensitive clouds

The research team found that clouds in the Arctic were two to eight times more sensitive to air pollution than clouds at other latitudes. They don't know for sure why yet, but hypothesize it may have to do with the stillness of the Arctic air mass. Without the air turbulence seen at mid-latitudes, the Arctic air can be easily perturbed by airborne particulates.

One factor the clouds were not sensitive to, however, was smoke from forest fires. "It's not that forest fires don't have the potential," Garrett says, "it's just that the plumes from these fires didn't end up in the same place as clouds." Air pollution attributable to human activities outpaced the influence of forest fires on Arctic clouds by a factor of around 100:1.
But then I found this:
Smoke Plumes and Temperature Inversions
Quote

...
In fact, it [dry smoky air] cools at around 10C over the first kilometer above the ground. This cooling rate is known as the dry adiabatic lapse rate. This is the rate of cooling expected if we were to lift any parcel of dry air vertically. Through the concepts of buoyancy and convective instability, any parcel that is warmer than ambient air will accelerate upward on it’s own, any parcel that is cooler than the ambient air will accelerate downward on it’s own, and any parcel the same temperature as the ambient air will continue to do whatever it is doing.

At around 800-millibars [in the studied example] the temperature stops cooling as we increase height. In fact, it remains the same or even warms slightly! This warming with height is known as a temperature inversion, or inversion for short. I’ve circled this temperature inversion below.

So what does this have to do with the smoke plume? Well, the smoke from the fire acts like a parcel of dry air. This means that for every one kilometer above the ground, the temperature of the smoke would be expected to cool 10C. (In reality the temperature of the smoke would most likely cool at a slightly faster rate due to processes such as turbulent mixing.) If we were to assume that the temperature of the smoke was approximately the same temperature as the ambient temperature, or slightly warmer, we would expect the smoke to accelerate upward. However, as the smoke accelerates upward it begins to cool, as we previously mentioned. It continues to rise because it is approximately the same temperature as the air surrounding it, so it will remain doing what it had been doing (which was rising).

Eventually the smoke will reach the height of the temperature inversion and become colder than the air surrounding it. At this point the smoke will begin to descend until it reaches an altitude where it is in equilibrium with the ambient air temperature, typically at or slightly below the height of the temperature inversion. At this point the smoke will begin to spread out horizontally instead of vertically, frequently being blow in a specific direction by the wind, as was the case yesterday evening.

So, by seeing smoke plumes spread horizontally, instead of vertically, one is actually visualizing the altitude of a temperature inversions.
...
My take from this:  smoke over the Arctic Ocean is not 'warm'.

In the long run, I've read of the concern that soot on ice will cause it to melt faster, helping to decimate MYI (and Greenland ice) which have more time to accumulate soot than does FYI.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

binntho

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2018, 06:48:43 PM »
Thanks for this very erudite answer Tor!

As for particulates falling on the ice, I´ve noticed a few times over the years that the ice in the Berings and EES seas become striated in spring/early summer, with variously brown bands getting darker as you get nearer the ice edge. I've often wondered if this was soot from forest fires being exposed as the overlying snow cover melts, but I'm not at all sure that this is the case.

Found an example from June 10th 2016, Bering strait to the left.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

HapHazard

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2018, 06:49:14 PM »
We cold smoke salmon here all the time.  :P
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2018, 09:52:49 PM »
Looking around Sentinel Playground (atmospheric correction, gain: .4; gamma .8 ), I noticed two floes in the Lincoln Sea, about the same size, close to each other, but with very different appearance.  Both have what I understand are blue melt ponds, same scale (lower right corners), same date (August 9), but different texture: "A" seems to have quite consistent parallel lineatiosn (mostly near horizontal, but near vertical in lower portions of the image) and cracks that appear 'about to go'.  "B" has what appear to be several 'old' floes very well glued together.

I don't know enough to draw 'significant' conclusions.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2018, 09:28:53 PM »
I can't say what I want to say over in the data thread so....

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Ranman99

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2018, 09:41:21 AM »
Reminds me that 2 + 2 = a slice of pie ;-)
😎


Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #138 on: August 26, 2018, 12:35:59 AM »
Bounce...

From the data thread...

That would be a fine analysis if you ignored the Battle of the Bulge on the Atlantic Front.

Battle of the Bulge ... I like it.

I was rather fond of the analogy, but unfortunately, I think the Nazi are going to win the war.

Pmt111500

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2018, 06:09:47 PM »
 8)  ::)  8)  went to a prog rock concert on weekend and didn't drink a drop, these things you do when you get older. Still couldn't make out the lyrics. The venue started to get crowded as there was a famous (in Finland) poprock band coming up so biked home the 4 miles on a cool tailwind evening breeze. Summers here can be nice, too.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »
A little Time Section Plot I asked ESRL to make for me.

("You may use the images produced from this page in publications, but we ask that you acknowledge us in this manner: Image provided by the NOAA/ESRL Physical Sciences Division, Boulder Colorado from their Web site at http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/.")

CalamityCountdown

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #141 on: March 02, 2019, 07:11:27 PM »
Since the Atlanticification of the Barents was a hot topic last season, and the early disappearance of sea ice in the Bering is the hot topic currently, seems like the logical progression to the next hot topic in the upcoming months is the size of the "pole hole"

jdallen

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #142 on: March 20, 2019, 10:45:22 PM »
Figured this would be the best place to start a very-much-to-early speculative discussion of where the current melt season will end up.

As I've stated previously, I think its All About the Volume, so here goes my seed to the discussion.

Looking at the numbers for volume and shoving them into my "black box", I'm going to make some rash seat-of-the-pants predictions for the coming melt season.

1) We will reach an early max volume somewhere around April 15th, with an additional volume of around 500KM3 of ice added, for a total annual Max of approximately 22,500KM

2) We will have a pull back to trend in the melt season, losing approximately 18500KM3 of ice for an end of season total of about 4000KM3.

These are pure SWAGs based on eyeballing current open water at high altitude, eyeballing the behavior of melt seasons against historic ENSO conditions, heat being released at the start of the melt season by the current El Nino (as opposed to the La Nina that started 2018), along with recent writings of the upper ocean heat content anomaly closing in on 180 zettajoules.  (source data link)

http://data.nodc.noaa.gov/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv

I'm comfortable being totally off, but don't think I will be that much.

Not sure what this will mean for end of season extent and area, which I actually think are far more volatile, but I'd take even odds on bumping #2 to #3 this year.
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Gray-Wolf

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #143 on: March 22, 2019, 12:46:00 PM »
If we were not waiting on the eruption of the 'over 7,000 pingo like structures' in Yamal I'd be more content to have a pop at how the season will run but if we do find that the reserves of free CH4 ( currently capped by the ice of the permafrost ) have a pathway to the atmosphere (through the erupting hillocks and the strata disrupted) then a lot could very quickly change!

Depending on wind and temp inversions we could see a very potent lens of GHG's over the basin changing the dynamic of melt as air temps respond.
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oren

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #144 on: March 24, 2019, 10:04:02 PM »
I strongly doubt this can have any effect on the melting season (although the long term effect could be different). These pingos don't erupt all at once, the emission is not significant enough, it will start over land and not over the ocean, and will spread around rather quickly, diluting any local effects.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2019, 02:01:05 PM »
Rather than continue in a thread where it doesn't belong I'll post here.

I'm of the opinion that we are 150 years too late, and I'm just here for the show.  I always wonder if the climax will be this year.

jdallen

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2019, 08:57:43 PM »
Rather than continue in a thread where it doesn't belong I'll post here.

I'm of the opinion that we are 150 years too late, and I'm just here for the show.  I always wonder if the climax will be this year.
Merit to your opinion, not sure if it's provable one way or another.

Definitely evidence that the effects of human activity were being seen before Arhennius discovered to cause a 124 years ago.
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Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2019, 10:46:48 PM »
The Model Worshippers don't like me.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #148 on: June 02, 2019, 05:53:31 PM »
Re: 2019 sea ice area and extent data

There's one thing that has been really tiresome to me lately, and that's meta-discussions, ie a discussion about the discussion. Gerontocrat can do what he likes here, as long as he posts the data. If there's anything anyone wants to take up with him, I'd like to ask them to copy the quote in question, paste it in another thread and comment on it there.

I have to totally agree with this.

Dharma Rupa

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Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2019, 10:39:13 PM »
I just engaged in a simple act of protest against privilege and every single person who weighed in on the discussion defended that privilege.

It isn't privilege.  It's an earned right.  You post actual data every day for a few years and I'll gladly put down the next noobie that comes along messing up the thread.