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Author Topic: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.  (Read 100886 times)

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #250 on: July 11, 2019, 07:08:55 PM »
This is it!!! I spy with my little eye TWO (2) actual humans!!! This marks my second sighting.

I can't tell with the resolution, but they could be two baby Sasquatches, however please correct me if I'm wrong.

pls!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #251 on: July 11, 2019, 07:36:57 PM »
The right one is the dude from your previous post i think.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2274.msg211978.html#msg211978

The left one looks like they are using a shovel on the road.

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #252 on: July 11, 2019, 08:01:00 PM »
The right one is the dude from your previous post i think.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2274.msg211978.html#msg211978

The left one looks like they are using a shovel on the road.

hmm, you are probably right about that. Now the question is - just what are they doing with that shovel??
pls!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #253 on: July 11, 2019, 08:09:58 PM »
There must be a treasure trove.  :o ;D ;D

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #254 on: July 11, 2019, 08:27:24 PM »
There must be a treasure trove.  :o ;D ;D

YUS!!!  ;)

They have found the long lost treasure of Barrow - some say that there's even some rum hidden in there too  8)
pls!

HapHazard

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #255 on: July 11, 2019, 09:06:03 PM »
The left one is on a bike.

Trying to get away from the other one, which is obviously a Samsquanch.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #256 on: July 11, 2019, 09:08:41 PM »
The left one is on a bike.

The left one is on an invisible bike.

FIFY ;)

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #257 on: July 11, 2019, 09:22:14 PM »
The left one is on a bike.

Trying to get away from the other one, which is obviously a Samsquanch.

LOLOL I totally got that Trailer Park Boys reference before I clicked on that.

Damn I miss that show, it was great!

"there's a squatch in these woods..."
pls!

binntho

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #258 on: July 16, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »
Quote
No there are no glaciers there calving. But icebergs from northern Greenland could be transported around the Arctic, at least in the old days when the ice was constantly moving in a great counter-clockwise circle.
This discussion is OT here. But in brief:
The currents around Greenland flow south in the Nares and in the Fram, so no Greenland icebergs can make it into the Arctic Ocean proper. What you could be referring to may be the Ward Hunt ice shelf and its remnants that broke off large icebergs from the north of Ellesmere Island in the early 2000s. But I am certain there are no icebergs in the ESS this season, so this should be discussed elsewhere.

Well this is probably a good place.

I'm well aware of the flow of currents, and that most of the icebergs originating in Greenland will head south. But perhaps not all, and perhaps not always. There are gletcher tongues along the northern coast that presumably calve every now and then, and the vagaries of sea ice movements in years past could presumably snatch those icebergs when the emerge, and carry them along into the Arctic Ocean proper rather than sending them out the Fram or Nares exits.

Having said that, I suspect that the scratch marks observed on the sea floor on the Siberian Shelf and in the Barents are from the last glacial period, and not the Holocene.

Reading descriptions of the ice front some 200 years ago, one could imagine that the compressed/compacted multiyear ice could reach quite a long way down, and that grounding of MYI on the Siberan Shelf would be a common occurrence.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
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oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #259 on: July 16, 2019, 09:23:08 AM »
Good points.
BTW I think sea ice can be compressed to stand sideways, and thus it can be snagged in shoals deeper than its thickness.
I also remember A-Team's description and animations of Hannah Shoal in the Chukchi, which is shallow enough for the sea ice to snag upon every season.

johnm33

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #260 on: July 16, 2019, 11:17:44 AM »
Whether it's detailed enough [?] but this gives depth/height select arctic-second option for basemap https://maps.ngdc.noaa.gov/viewers/bathymetry/ best to wait til it's fully loaded -help appears bottom left- before selecting options.

binntho

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #261 on: July 16, 2019, 12:59:41 PM »
Not wanting to clutter the real threads where the actual discussions are taking place, I decided to post this old-man's rant here:

Terrific, Comradez!! As for myself, a complete non-scientist who LOVES this stuff and Neven's forum, this is what I'd like to see more of: Videos with narration showing me exactly what I want to see and learn. Keep it up...perhaps edited down a bit more
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Not wanting to damp the videomaking enthusiasm, but I for one am utterly unable to watch educational videos on the Internet. Perhaps it's a form of autistically induced ADHD (not that I've ever been diagnosed), but if it isn't written down then it doesn't work for me.

Of course, videos have their own strengths, but for me the drawbacks, such as lack of subtitles (for those who have hearing problems) and the exclusively linear structure plus the difficulty of referring to specific parts, plus my inability to stay focused for more than a couple of minutes when other people are talking, make them pretty useless to me.

But please do not stop making them for my sake! Just don't fall into the trap I've seen too often, where videos overtake the well written text because the author feels they are easier to make, and mistakenly assumes that his "customer base" is just as richly served with videos.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #262 on: July 16, 2019, 01:27:51 PM »
Not wanting to damp the videomaking enthusiasm, but I for one am utterly unable to watch educational videos on the Internet. Perhaps it's a form of autistically induced ADHD (not that I've ever been diagnosed), but if it isn't written down then it doesn't work for me.
I have the exact same issue, and the same self-diagnosis...

HapHazard

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #263 on: July 16, 2019, 07:12:39 PM »

Not wanting to damp the videomaking enthusiasm, but I for one am utterly unable to watch educational videos on the Internet.

Same here. I can't stand such videos. I find them too slow, drives me insane. Also boring. Plus I "digest" while reading much better.

Stephan

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #264 on: July 16, 2019, 07:58:45 PM »
The opposite for me. I can't read longer texts without (automatically) getting too fast down to the next line, the next paragraph, the next chapter, and by this way probably missing the most imortant words and the essence of the text.
With - well made - videos this is not the case and I listen very carefully. If the text is narrated well and the pictures / the film is presenting the same content than the text it is fine with me.
(I once saw a video about PIG/PIIS with high and steep mountain glaciers which are not present at that place, which annoyed me)

Freegrass

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2019, 08:20:26 PM »
Whether it's detailed enough [?] but this gives depth/height select arctic-second option for basemap https://maps.ngdc.noaa.gov/viewers/bathymetry/ best to wait til it's fully loaded -help appears bottom left- before selecting options.
Thanks for the replies everyone! I think I've figured it out now by doing something I should probably have done before I asked my question; I went through the years on Worldview, looking at that piece of ice, and the only conclusion I can make now is that it must be ice that's attached to an sub-surface outcrop on the ocean floor. So no iceberg...

The good thing about doing research is that you end up finding interesting things that you weren't actually looking for, like that image of scars on the ocean floor, and this project, that is mapping the entire ocean floor by 2030.

Seabed 2030 is a collaborative project between the Nippon Foundation and GEBCO. It aims to bring together all available bathymetric data to produce the definitive map of the world ocean floor by 2030 and make it available to all. It builds on more than 100 years of GEBCO's history in global seafloor mapping.

https://seabed2030.gebco.net/
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Human Habitat Index

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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Coffee Drinker

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #267 on: July 17, 2019, 12:00:50 PM »
I can't believe there is still ice in the Hudson Bay. How is that even possible?

Temperatures around the bay are pretty much summer like (Churchill 28C today) and the sun is burning down on the ice. Its identical latitude as the Baltic Sea which would never ever have ice in mid July, no matter how cold the winter was.

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #268 on: July 17, 2019, 12:41:06 PM »
Continental Canada is much colder than the same latitudes in Europe. Hudson is currently at <10% of its winter ice cover. This should clear out by early August, though it's been known to last even until late August in the Foxe Basin sub-region.

gerontocrat

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #269 on: July 17, 2019, 12:50:08 PM »
I can't believe there is still ice in the Hudson Bay. How is that even possible?

Temperatures around the bay are pretty much summer like (Churchill 28C today) and the sun is burning down on the ice. Its identical latitude as the Baltic Sea which would never ever have ice in mid July, no matter how cold the winter was.
Location, location, location.
Hudson Bay is in the north and to the east of centre of a big continent.
It gets horribly cold in winter. That part of the world is not called "the Barrens" for nothing.
Summer is horribly short, winter is horribly long.

Ice freezes to an average depth of about 1.6 metres in winter and is late to start melting.

Hudson Bay is one of the seas (there is more than one) that seem to have ignored AGW.

This year it has melted out very close to the 2010's average, a week or more earlier than last year.

In contrast, the Baltic is at the western edge of the European continent, and its climate is semi-maritime, Atlantic westerlies.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Freegrass

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #270 on: July 17, 2019, 01:13:31 PM »
Continental Canada is much colder than the same latitudes in Europe.
So true! We've got the Gulfstream to thank for that. Just imagine what would happen to Europe if the gulfstream collapses. It would actually get colder here as the planet heats up. I live in Belgium, and for the second year in a row it's bone dry here. It's hardly raining, and our groundwater levels aren't replenished enough in winter either, so we're really feeling the consequences of climate change now. We're heading into our second heatwave this week...  :o

One good thing though, we've now got some of the best wine in the world as well, just like we have the best beer in the world. So we don't worry too much about climate change. We just get drunk as much as possible...  ;) ;D ::)
The Existential Climate Crisis Is Upon Us!

binntho

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #271 on: July 17, 2019, 01:23:55 PM »
One good thing though, we've now got some of the best wine in the world as well, just like we have the best beer in the world.
And the worst beer as well ... i've never tasted anything as disgusting as the white monastery beer I was once duped into tasting in Brussels. I was told it had been brewed in large open vats, and the white mold that collected on top was regularly mixed in and this was what made it taste so "special".

Having said that, I once tasted some horrible beer + colored fitzy dring in East Berlin back in the old days. But no I think the Belgian one was worse.

So we don't worry too much about climate change. We just get drunk as much as possible...  ;) ;D ::)
Works for me too!
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Freegrass

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #272 on: July 17, 2019, 03:09:54 PM »
Oh yeah, we've got some disgusting tasting beers as well. Do you remember the name of the beer? We've got around 1700 kinds of beer in Belgium, on a population of 11 million... It's like cheese, some cheeses are also simply disgusting. I spend more than 6 years in SE-Asia, and I tasted some nasty food there as well... But I guess the one thing you can never have a discussion about, is taste... What's disgusting for one person, is heaven for another... Ever tried Balut, or century egg? Now that's disgusting...

I was just about to write a post on the other thread. Is there such a thing as a Tripole? It looks like it's gonna be a horrible week for the ice...
The Existential Climate Crisis Is Upon Us!

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #273 on: July 17, 2019, 08:27:38 PM »
......the CAB stays a constant from January - June each year, then somewhere around July 10th give or take a week a steady decrease from that 4.2-4.4 value occurs every year. The depth of that decrease varies significantly but the duration is identical, and the refreeze begins also within quite a limited calendar period until it again rises into the 4.2-4.4 range.

The 5 day average NSIDC average that Gerontocrat reports here every day peaked at 3.2M km2 in March.

Any # of 4.2 - 4.4M km2 is coming from a different area measure. The complexity of an internet discussion involving multiple measures of the same 2D attribute (area) from a single agency (NSIDC) makes productive exchange unlikely. It becomes
too confusing.
NSIDC's CAB size is ~3.2M km2. There is no double measure from a single agency.
In addition to this definition, there used to be a web site called Cryosphere Today (CT for short) that had regional area data and/or charts, in which the CAB was defined as ~4.4M km2. That website is no longer active. However, a certain user called Wipneus, you may have heard of him, has decided to recreate the CT Area data by analysing and number crunching the raw data coming from NSIDC. The same Wipneus has done the same with the raw data coming from JAXA and from UH Hamburg, and on his website the ArctischePinguin he publishes this data daily, using the same regional demarcations of CT.
Wipneus also made some tweaks and improvements to the algorithm of deciding how much area there is, resulting in his Home Brew AMSR2 data thread. I recommend to read its beginning posts, they could teach you a lot.

All this happened before my time here. How do I know this then? Because I have been an avid reader of the forum for the past 5 years.

Having come to some realizations about the regional data, I once (or thrice) posted a suggestion to split the CAB to several sectors (Pacific-facing, Siberian-facing, Atlantic-facing) each having a distinct melting season behavior, and a much smaller CAB. No one took up on my suggestion. I could do the calculations myself, but it's too difficult for me, so I just shut up.
If you want to advance the cause of science - don't complain, be a doer: petition the NSIDC for a new demarcation of the regions. Will they listen? Dunno. Haven't tried.
Alternatively, do what Wipneus did, and number-crunch a new regional demarcation. Can you? Dunno.
Alternatively, use the data you are given, and don't complain, especially not on the leading threads. Just my take on it.

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #274 on: July 17, 2019, 09:28:37 PM »
Here's a link to the "Home Brew" thread, which you can peruse and see what some "random user" can achieve.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,382.msg7522.html#msg7522

BTW, that topic was read 1.35M times...

Killian

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #275 on: July 22, 2019, 02:32:20 PM »
Fun With Numbers

So.... I noticed something a couple years ago. That's a lie: I went looking for something a few years ago and found it: Was there a pattern in the extent data prior to September that was harbinger of the Sept. minimum?

I'm a patterns person, systems thinker, systems designer. I notice and look for patterns. Sometimes they are meaningless, sometimes correlations but not causes, and sometimes something new nobody saw before. This has a *small* chance of being the latter.

If you look at the JAXA ASIE graph, you will notice that between July 8 and July 20th, except the 14th and 15th, the four lowest extent years before 2019, and 2019 ('12, '16, '07, '15 - I know, fifteen???? I'd had no idea...), are in correct order of magnitude, lowest to highest. 2016 and 2012 switch on those two days.

I started looking for this pattern before the 2016 low, so it wasn't there as clearly as now. And, of course, if you throw in other years, it gets upended. Pretty much every year after 2010 mucks it up. Statistical noise. Still, my rationale is this:

If you have a year coming in under *all of them*, or nearly so, like 2016 almost did and 2019 is so far, then it might be something worth paying attention to come July 9th to the 20th.

Cheers

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #276 on: July 24, 2019, 11:20:06 PM »
Something very strange is afoot in the Arctic...

I'm big scared



pls!

philopek

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #277 on: July 24, 2019, 11:48:42 PM »
Something very strange is afoot in the Arctic...

I'm big scared

Not real, mediocre photoshop work, was that meant to be a joke ?

all those vessels are identical and inserted, clearly visible by the surrounding rectangular cut-out.

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #278 on: July 24, 2019, 11:53:54 PM »
Something very strange is afoot in the Arctic...

I'm big scared

Not real, mediocre photoshop work, was that meant to be a joke ?

all those vessels are identical and inserted, clearly visible by the surrounding rectangular cut-out.

I mean this is meaningless chatter, so yes. Figured I would have some fun at work since I'm hella bored. Also, I used paint, pls and thx. There's far more than just the little boats tho...
pls!

Tor Bejnar

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #279 on: July 25, 2019, 12:24:58 AM »
There is a lot of traffic on that road, for sure.  A fire? ::) :P
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

pearscot

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #280 on: July 25, 2019, 12:33:31 AM »
There is a lot of traffic on that road, for sure.  A fire? ::) :P

Rush hour in Barrow!!! They are all departing that new high-rise. Alas, even the arctic is not able to escape the outflow of people and gentrification.
pls!

dnem

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #281 on: July 26, 2019, 01:23:24 PM »
Meaningless thoughts for today:

1) The bickering across multiple threads here is growing very old.

2) The disastrous global happenings being documented across multiple threads here is positively terrifying.

be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #282 on: July 26, 2019, 01:27:51 PM »
Killian and Rich are just messing .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

gerontocrat

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #283 on: July 26, 2019, 01:46:13 PM »
A bit of pure speculation. Are we picking up on the fractious mood out there in the world?

We assume that acceptance of the dreadful state of the planet and it's accelerating decline is still not part of the general human consciousness. Because if it was, behaviour would be different.

But perhaps that is wrong.
Perhaps the world is in grief. That which was - a planet abundant in resources, man's playground - is gone.

Perhaps the world is in the 3rd Stage of grief- Anger & Bargaining.
Vote in a Trump, a Boris, a Bolsonaro.
Start a war.
Be a racist.
Cut down the trees and burn the coal and gas.
Blame the scientists for telling you.
Not my fault. Your fault.

In the end, the world might reach
Stage 7 : ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. You can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

https://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 03:27:40 PM by gerontocrat »
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Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #284 on: July 26, 2019, 01:57:40 PM »
Killian and Rich are just messing .. b.c.

The sarcastic smart ass has spoken.  I'm 100% genuine, something which is apparently difficult for you to detect.

I rub people the wrong way because I have a perspective that a BOE is not imminent and sharing data that indicates we aren't tracking toward a record at this point.

I guess maybe it spoils the fun. Nearly every post on the melting season thread is a message of how bad things are. Someone comes along and mentions that the CAB could be worse and that melting momentum has temporarily stalled and the thread gets unhinged.

It's kinda sad that the truth is considered trolling.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2019, 02:35:42 PM »
I think Gerontocrat is on to something. I am certainly going through a grieving process with environmental collapse.

It's not linear. I oscillate between many of the stages of grieving, but I am losing hope.

I'll be transparent and acknowledge that I'm trying to influence the conversation at ASIF. We're clearly heading to a massive ecological catastrophe for humans and other critters and I think the emphasis should be on acceptance and constructive engagement such as Extinction Rebellion is engaging in.

I'm critical of the mindset that connects record setting decline of the ice to the overall catastrophe. There is a collective ego here ice collapse is more important than
it truly is.

Ice doesn't have to collapse for the larger disaster to unfold. A slow methodical 50 year glide path to a BOE will still be accompanied by massive ecological disaster.

If we don't set a record low minimum this year, we're still on a path to disaster.

I would like to see ASIF evolve from a community that revels in ice collapse porn to one that has a serious conversation about what we can do to fight the slide toward disaster.

This is a great forum to watch the disaster unfold. Lot's of great content and educated users. I'd like to see it take on some mission related to fighting back. That's the narcissism in me.... to believe I can influence that.

It's a long shot, but I have nothing to lose.

In the absence of that, things like the Prepping For Collapse thread might yield some valuable survival nuggets.



binntho

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #286 on: July 26, 2019, 02:39:29 PM »
Killian and Rich are just messing .. b.c.

The sarcastic smart ass has spoken.  I'm 100% genuine, something which is apparently difficult for you to detect.

I rub people the wrong way because I have a perspective that a BOE is not imminent and sharing data that indicates we aren't tracking toward a record at this point.

I guess maybe it spoils the fun. Nearly every post on the melting season thread is a message of how bad things are. Someone comes along and mentions that the CAB could be worse and that melting momentum has temporarily stalled and the thread gets unhinged.

It's kinda sad that the truth is considered trolling.
Well my last word in this matter is that you are totally off to a side when it comes to posting here and it is increadibly irritating. I'll put you on ignore from now on, which I've never done before in all my more than 25 years of communicating via the Internet.

I'd like to use the opportunity to apologize for my silly postings, behaving like a small kid just beccause Nevin is away! Shame on me!

And I realize I've also forgotten to offer Neven my condolences, here they are.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Shared Humanity

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #287 on: July 26, 2019, 02:54:08 PM »
Meaningless thoughts for today:

1) The bickering across multiple threads here is growing very old.

2) The disastrous global happenings being documented across multiple threads here is positively terrifying.

I hope that when Neven comes back, he does a little statistical analysis and kicks off this site any who have passed the threshold metric for annoying.

bluice

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #288 on: July 26, 2019, 03:30:08 PM »
Rich, I don't intend to be rude but I want to openly tell you why people find your behaviour annoying.

In about two months you have posted nearly 500 posts on the forum. Many (most?) of them are on the main melting season and data topics, though even a layman like me can see that you obviously have very little knowledge of even the basic things. Even worse, you end up in constant arguments when defending your nonsensical ideas.

Remember the ice-drowning storm surge you predicted a few weeks back?

There are real experts and very knowledgeable amateurs on this forum. Then there are people who come to see the wise ones discuss matters of interest. Nobody wants to read page after page arguing over trivial issues.
In PIOMAS we trust

philopek

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #289 on: July 26, 2019, 03:36:44 PM »
A bit of pure speculation. Are we picking up on the fractious mood out there in the world?

We assume that acceptance of the dreadful state of the planet and it's accelerating decline is still not part of the general human consciousness. Because if it was, behaviour would be different.

But perhaps that is wrong.
Perhaps the world is in grief. That which was - a planet abundant in resources, man's playground - is gone.

Perhaps the world is in the 3rd Stage of grief- Anger & Bargaining.
Vote in a Trump, a Boris, a Bolsonaro.
Start a war.
Be a racist.
Cut down the trees and burn the coal and gas.
Blame the scientists for telling you.
Not my fault. Your fault.

In the end, the world might reach
Stage 7 : ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. You can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

https://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html

My deep respect, that's the path mankind should think along. Accepting less welcome facts allows for content/happiness while denial/ignoring the same leads to disasters. Among others the exact disasters we are already in there is more to come.

Emoji  [thumbs-up] is missing, at least i miss it often

SteveMDFP

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #290 on: July 26, 2019, 03:42:05 PM »

I'll be transparent and acknowledge that I'm trying to influence the conversation at ASIF. We're clearly heading to a massive ecological catastrophe for humans and other critters and I think the emphasis should be on acceptance and constructive engagement such as Extinction Rebellion is engaging in.

Then please stop.  Everybody on the forum knows the significance of global warming, most know that it is a potential civilization-ending matter.  Most know that the Arctic and its sea ice is the early barometer of change. 

People have their own responses to approaching calamity.  It's high-handed and arrogant for any of us to try to steer others towards what one of us thinks "the emphasis should be."  The approach is obnoxious and toxic to the community.

For me, keeping an eye on arctic matters is watching the canary in the coal mine as it gets weak, wobbles, and approaches demise.  So folks here comment on the wobbles a lot.  Nothing wrong with that. 

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #291 on: July 26, 2019, 03:57:23 PM »
Meaningless thoughts for today:

1) The bickering across multiple threads here is growing very old.

2) The disastrous global happenings being documented across multiple threads here is positively terrifying.

I hope that when Neven comes back, he does a little statistical analysis and kicks off this site any who have passed the threshold metric for annoying.

If I get banned, so be it.

Apparently, stating that area loss is declining as an indication that momentum has slowed is annoying.

Stating that CAB losses are not tracking toward a record is annoying.

Sharing thickness as PIOMAS volume / NSIDC area is apparently annoying.

The idea that the CAB may not melt out prior to 2030 because it's thousands of meter deeper and far from heat advecting land masses is obviously extremely annoying.

If only everyone would get along with the cult psychology that ice collapse is both imminent AND the ice is the gordian knot holding civilization together, everything would be just fine.?

Civilization is on the precipice. I'm not worried about getting banned here. If that makes like easier and more peaceful for Neven, then I won't have any hard feelings about it.






Gray-Wolf

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #292 on: July 26, 2019, 04:13:33 PM »
I think our respect for Neven , esp. at this time when we are entrusted with his site, should be paramount in all our contributors minds!

For him to come back and find his efforts reduced to some parody of a noughties climate forum is too horrid to think on.
KOYAANISQATSI

ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
 
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

nanning

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #293 on: July 26, 2019, 04:49:16 PM »
<snippage>
In the end, the world might reach
Stage 7 : ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. You can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
...

My deep respect, that's the path mankind should think along. Accepting less welcome facts allows for content/happiness while denial/ignoring the same leads to disasters. Among others the exact disasters we are already in there is more to come.

Emoji  [thumbs-up] is missing, at least i miss it often
Happiness requires some stability. There will be no stability.
That's not a situation I find agreeable or pleasant.
What is hope? When you have accepted, what then?
A lot of violence will happen. The police and governments don't change their conduct easily.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #294 on: July 26, 2019, 05:00:00 PM »

For me, keeping an eye on arctic matters is watching the canary in the coal mine as it gets weak, wobbles, and approaches demise.  So folks here comment on the wobbles a lot.  Nothing wrong with that.

It's your position that the canary is still alive and the position of many here that the ice is THE one and only canary.

The view that the ice is not THE one and only canary is somewhat heretical here at ASIF. I believe we are passing the boundary into irretrievable ecological collapse AND that we are NOT tracking toward a BOE by 2030.

Regarding "wobbles". I don't have a problem with people pointing out the bad news. I don't jump on them and get nasty for accentuating the problems. I"m not attacking people on the melting season thread. I just point some things out for a balanced perspective and I am on the receiving end of attacks.

A few people are freaking out in response to the challenge to a religious belief about imminent ice collapse. Some people were condemned long ago for asserting that the earth is not the center of the universe. Today you get the same treatment for asserting that near term ice collapse is not Central to the coming ecological disaster. We've already lost enough! Disaster is here and now.

The canary is dead. We may (or may not) still have a chance. But the canary is dead.


SteveMDFP

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #295 on: July 26, 2019, 05:17:39 PM »

For me, keeping an eye on arctic matters is watching the canary in the coal mine as it gets weak, wobbles, and approaches demise.  So folks here comment on the wobbles a lot.  Nothing wrong with that.

A few people are freaking out in response to the challenge to a religious belief about imminent ice collapse. Some people were condemned long ago for asserting that the earth is not the center of the universe. Today you get the same treatment for asserting that near term ice collapse is not Central to the coming ecological disaster. We've already lost enough! Disaster is here and now.

The canary is dead. We may (or may not) still have a chance. But the canary is dead.

I'm sorry, but I think the disagreement you cite is a tempest in a teapot.  Changing analogies, we're tied to train tracks and all agree that a freight train is approaching.  Some say it's still 50 miles away, some say it's only 5 miles.  Some insist we'll see smoke from the engine well before it crushes us, some don't agree (i.e., a BOE).

Everybody already knows we have to act urgently to get off the tracks ASAP.  Arguing about how many minutes we have left is unhelpful, however many minutes there actually are.

HapHazard

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #296 on: July 26, 2019, 05:37:03 PM »

Then please stop.

A-fucking-men to that.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #297 on: July 26, 2019, 05:45:56 PM »

Remember the ice-drowning storm surge you predicted a few weeks back?


Of course I remember that. I posted 3 public apologies for that and pm'ed quite a few more.

It will serve as quite a good example for anyone who wants to create a caricature of my participation as you are doing here.

Most of my OP's are just data. I sometimes post updated wind conditions. Recently I posted the latitudes of places indicating the progression of SST's from the perimeter toward the CAB.

I have made a lot of posts recently which orbit around the theme of the CAB being separate from the rest of the Arctic by virtue of it's depth and distance from warm continental land.

The latest post which attracted controversy was merely facts. I stated that NSIDC arealosses we're down and indicating that meant momentum was down. I got that from paying attention to intelligent people who have identified area as an indicator of momentum.

My post count will of course rise when people challenge the accuracy of the NSIDC data or it's meaning.

I posted the average CAB depth of 2M+ as of 7/15. I explained where it came from (PIOMAS volume and NSIDC area) and Gerontocrat came along and corroborated that.

My post count will of course rise when people accuse me of inventing data that is real or lying about where I got it. I can't let someone call me a liar and go silent.
That's acquiescence.

I made a big fuckup by not taking the issue related to my ignorance of water / ice properties last month to the Stupid Questions thread earlier. I paid the price for it and now I have a bullseye on me.

I apologized and I'm moving on. I think the problem at this point is not so much what I share, but how people react to me. For the time being, I'm a lightning rod.

I can't be held accountable for other people claiming that the data I share from acknowledged best sources  is wrong. I can't be held accountable if someone falsely accuses me of being a liar.. Those are the things that wreck threads.


be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #298 on: July 26, 2019, 06:05:00 PM »
Lightening rod ? .. or arsehole ?
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #299 on: July 26, 2019, 06:33:44 PM »
Lightening rod ? .. or arsehole ?

Whatever works for you b.c.

As a practitioner of sarcasm, contempt and one upsmanship, I would think you would be grateful for my presence here. I'm here to compliment your sweet spot.

If there were no vehicles for smart ass comments, how would you fit in here?