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Author Topic: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.  (Read 102055 times)

be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #300 on: July 26, 2019, 06:41:50 PM »
My 'smart ass' comments only follow in the wake of derailed threads , false arguements and as more than one has remarked .. lies .. cold July indeed . Are you suprised that the one who convinced A-team to depart and keeps fucking about in Neven's absence gets little appreciation ?
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

jdallen

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #301 on: July 26, 2019, 07:22:09 PM »
Lightening rod ? .. or arsehole ?

Whatever works for you b.c.

As a practitioner of sarcasm, contempt and one upsmanship, I would think you would be grateful for my presence here. I'm here to compliment your sweet spot.

If there were no vehicles for smart ass comments, how would you fit in here?
Finally a place where a comment on this is appropriate.

Rich, the biggest problem I think people have is a lot of the posting you have done hasn't been about the ice, or climate change, but rather about Rich.

You have consistently sucked the air out of the room bickering with *multiple* people.  You've wrapped yourself in a heroic banner and pretty much declared you are on a crusade to sort us all out, and the rest of us need to get behind you to help push. That will not endear you to the myriad of researchers and citizen scientists here who have been studying (and continue to be) the Arctic for decades.

Your actual goals are completely lost in the process.

We relate to your fear. I think its safe to say the posters here are terrified for the future. I acknowledge yours, which is legitimate and justified.

Don't let it or your ego get in the way of the discussions.
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Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #302 on: July 26, 2019, 07:41:13 PM »
My 'smart ass' comments only follow in the wake of derailed threads , false arguements and as more than one has remarked .. lies .. cold July indeed . Are you suprised that the one who convinced A-team to depart and keeps fucking about in Neven's absence gets little appreciation ?

So which piece of my melting season post did you find to be "fucking about"

Was it the part about NSIDC area loss slowdown since 7/15 that bbr claimed was erroneous?

Was it the 7/15 average CAB thickness of 2+m that was challenged by multiple people and ultimately corroborated by Gerontocrat?

Is it the assertion that CAB losses are not tracking toward a record?

BTW - I didn't say all of July was cold, just that the 2nd half of July has been "relatively" cold. I stand by that.

Nice that you wrap yourself in honor to Neven's absence. Perhaps you can better honor him by resisting every opportunity put in front of you to be a smartass?

fwiw - CAB area rose 10k km2 yesterday. I'll stay away from posting anything on the melting season thread about that today, so no one gets offended by any data. How's that?

be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #303 on: July 26, 2019, 07:49:11 PM »
I'm done Rich .. please listen to JDAllen and all the others   b.c. :)

If yours is not a deliberate attempt to derail but instead is a sincere attempt to learn then why not choose a way that does not derail .

And it is true the stupid questions thread is not for stupid questions .. I asked it's name be changed when I arrived here .. I ask again .. as any newbie who thinks he has a question prefers not to think it stupid and thus asks it in the main threads ..
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:02:52 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #304 on: July 26, 2019, 08:34:48 PM »

You have consistently sucked the air out of the room bickering with *multiple* people.  You've wrapped yourself in a heroic banner and pretty much declared you are on a crusade to sort us all out, and the rest of us need to get behind you to help push. That will not endear you to the myriad of researchers and citizen scientists here who have been studying (and continue to be) the Arctic for decades.


Thank you for your comment.

I certainly don't see myself as a hero. I am throwing a desperate Hail Mary as I watch the future get subsumed.

With all due respect to the people who spend their lives researching the Arctic, and becoming experts, I thank them. They and countless others have performed a great service in educating people.

At this point we have a surplus of information available to anyone interested. Civilization is not going over the precipice because of a lack of scientific understanding.

We are going under as a result of social inertia. At this point it's probably a lot more important to understand the bystander effect than Albedo Warming Potential.

AGW is primarily a social science problem at this point. This is a community which you claim is"terrified" of AGW, but there is very little discussion of what we do about it.

We're all watching it happen. No accountability to each other. Committed perhaps to adding to unnecessary surplus of understanding that we're screwed.

Twice this year, > 1M kids skipped school on the same day to protest climate change and the world moved on with hardly a pause. Are we with them or are we quiet bystanders?

It's interesting that even in a community that is mostly accepting of the risk of AGW and terrified, that the social construct of our obligation to do anything about it is taboo.

If you want to understand why the world can't embrace the mission of fighting AGW, maybe we can start by understanding why ASIF can't embrace it as a mission.
What is within us that prevents us from joining those kids?

We're not fighting. We're bystanding. We're throwing out surplus science and largely spectating.

It's all fucking madness. I'm not a hero. I'm alone. I'm outraged. I study history. I'm all too familiar with how easy it is for good people to do nothing when evil arises.









kassy

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #305 on: July 26, 2019, 08:44:15 PM »
Quote
We're bystanding.

Yeah we are a forum discussing the event. If you want more get into local stuff, talk to people in the flesh etc.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #306 on: July 26, 2019, 08:56:35 PM »
Quote
We're bystanding.

Yeah we are a forum discussing the event. If you want more get into local stuff, talk to people in the flesh etc.

So, in your opinion, ASIF should not be a hub of activism and activism s/b confined to local action?

jdallen

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #307 on: July 26, 2019, 08:57:02 PM »

You have consistently sucked the air out of the room bickering with *multiple* people.  You've wrapped yourself in a heroic banner and pretty much declared you are on a crusade to sort us all out, and the rest of us need to get behind you to help push. That will not endear you to the myriad of researchers and citizen scientists here who have been studying (and continue to be) the Arctic for decades.


Thank you for your comment.

I certainly don't see myself as a hero. I am throwing a desperate Hail Mary as I watch the future get subsumed.

With all due respect to the people who spend their lives researching the Arctic, and becoming experts, I thank them. They and countless others have performed a great service in educating people.

At this point we have a surplus of information available to anyone interested. Civilization is not going over the precipice because of a lack of scientific understanding.

We are going under as a result of social inertia. At this point it's probably a lot more important to understand the bystander effect than Albedo Warming Potential.

AGW is primarily a social science problem at this point. This is a community which you claim is"terrified" of AGW, but there is very little discussion of what we do about it.

We're all watching it happen. No accountability to each other. Committed perhaps to adding to unnecessary surplus of understanding that we're screwed.

Twice this year, > 1M kids skipped school on the same day to protest climate change and the world moved on with hardly a pause. Are we with them or are we quiet bystanders?

It's interesting that even in a community that is mostly accepting of the risk of AGW and terrified, that the social construct of our obligation to do anything about it is taboo.

If you want to understand why the world can't embrace the mission of fighting AGW, maybe we can start by understanding why ASIF can't embrace it as a mission.
What is within us that prevents us from joining those kids?

We're not fighting. We're bystanding. We're throwing out surplus science and largely spectating.

It's all fucking madness. I'm not a hero. I'm alone. I'm outraged. I study history. I'm all too familiar with how easy it is for good people to do nothing when evil arises.
Rich;

There are places for discussion about action, and there are places for discussion about research - which puts tools in the hands of people like you and me to take our arguments to the street.

These forums are dedicated to science, for the most part, but we *do* have active discussions about action.

Because of this, you also miss the the fact, the virtual certainty that most of us *are* taking action, across multiple venues to address climate change.

Some like Neven and myself are working hard to reduce our and our families personal carbon foot print.

We all contribute to the discussions here trying to understand AND BETTER ARTICULATE exactly what is going on in the environment.  Discussions and research products here have frequently been picked up in mass media and significantly contribute to public understanding.

Contributions here have prompted new research by scientists studying the Arctic.  *Tell* me that isn't important?!

Do not think for one moment that the scientific discussion here isn't helping.

Similarly, do not assume that forum members are not actively pursuing remedies to climate change elsewhere - whether lobbying our governments, educating people about the science, contributing to environmental organizations or taking direct action themselves. (edit: Some of us may also actually be actively running as or supporting candidates for political office in an effort to directly change policy...)

It's all going on, Rich.  We just don't talk about it here for the most part, because "this" isn't the appropriate forum for those discussions.

There *is* a place for the dialog you want to have.  It even exists here in other threads:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/board,16.0.html

You will find people there very willing to engage you on exactly the topics you are describing.

Most of the posting you do in the Arctic Sea Ice threads really isn't helping, and in fact is making things harder.

For the sake of coherence, please consider moving your concerns there and reduce the amount of noise and friction being generated in the Arctic Sea Ice threads. 

This space for Rent.

philopek

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #308 on: July 26, 2019, 09:13:00 PM »
<snippage>
In the end, the world might reach
Stage 7 : ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. You can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
...

My deep respect, that's the path mankind should think along. Accepting less welcome facts allows for content/happiness while denial/ignoring the same leads to disasters. Among others the exact disasters we are already in there is more to come.

Emoji  [thumbs-up] is missing, at least i miss it often
Happiness requires some stability. There will be no stability.
That's not a situation I find agreeable or pleasant.
What is hope? When you have accepted, what then?
A lot of violence will happen. The police and governments don't change their conduct easily.

We are talking about accepting facts and not things we can improve.

As i know you by know i think i won't have to explain that significant difference.

I for my part if i see a tiny chance to improve something i give all i have and it costs me dearly at times. If i know that there is no way, i adapt to the inevitable before the inevitable takes away from me the ability to act.

There are many enough example to that, most are sensitive topics but there are nations that only exist because those who saw it coming were moving out of harms way. This does not imply that those who didn't were responsible for what happened to them but it shows that we have first a choice to objectively analyze and then we have to choice to take action, perhaps against our original wishes, to get a second chance.

If you read my stuff in other threads you should be aware that i'm ready to fight but:

I. Only if there it makes sense or if there is a visible chance to change things for the better.

II. Only non-violent action, once things become violent i opt out because i despise violence
with every fiber of my corporal entity.

Hope it's clear, else don't hesitate to PM, after all I see that you think alike or similar, hence it's perhaps worth to iron out a few petty details to be able to combine forces where needed ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 09:18:15 PM by philopek »

gerontocrat

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2019, 09:23:30 PM »
And now for something completely different.

What happens when a sea goes ice-free in summer causes a lot of hoo-ha on the threads. I thought to myself, have we got a real life example?

The Baltic! Eureka! Ice in summer has collapsed to zero. Must impact winter. Mustn't it? Raided some data from the Finnish met Office, and...

Disappointment. No drama.

The long graph from Finnish Met attached and a shorter one by me. Trend lines from hell.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

kassy

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #310 on: July 26, 2019, 09:37:57 PM »
The Baltic is small and surrounded by land so not a good example of what would happen over the arctic seas?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

bluice

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #311 on: July 26, 2019, 10:45:17 PM »
Baltic sea does affect local climates though. For example it snows more on the coast during late autumn/early winter storms if temp goes sub zero but sea is still open.
In PIOMAS we trust

gerontocrat

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #312 on: July 26, 2019, 10:52:21 PM »
I was looking for a tipping point in the Baltic but the Finns say there is a gradual extension of the melting season consistent with a warming climate.

i.e. transition without drama.

Ps The Bering did crash in 2 / 3 years and may well be in a different state, as may have the Antarctic sea ice.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 10:57:41 PM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

bluice

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #313 on: July 26, 2019, 10:57:58 PM »
I was looking for a tipping point in the Baltic but the Finns say there is a gradual extension of the melting season consistent with a warming climate.

i.e. transition without drama.
The Baltic still freezes every winter. Also, its freezing faith is tied to weather systems moving in from elsewhere.
In PIOMAS we trust

jdallen

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #314 on: July 26, 2019, 11:11:29 PM »
The Baltic is small and surrounded by land so not a good example of what would happen over the arctic seas?
And shallow, brackish, and a lot further south.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #315 on: July 27, 2019, 06:20:32 AM »
Meaningless thoughts for today:

1) The bickering across multiple threads here is growing very old.

2) The disastrous global happenings being documented across multiple threads here is positively terrifying.

I hope that when Neven comes back, he does a little statistical analysis and kicks off this site any who have passed the threshold metric for annoying.

If I get banned, so be it.

Apparently, stating that area loss is declining as an indication that momentum has slowed is annoying.

Stating that CAB losses are not tracking toward a record is annoying.

Sharing thickness as PIOMAS volume / NSIDC area is apparently annoying.

The idea that the CAB may not melt out prior to 2030 because it's thousands of meter deeper and far from heat advecting land masses is obviously extremely annoying.

If only everyone would get along with the cult psychology that ice collapse is both imminent AND the ice is the gordian knot holding civilization together, everything would be just fine.?

Civilization is on the precipice. I'm not worried about getting banned here. If that makes like easier and more peaceful for Neven, then I won't have any hard feelings about it.

Why have you decided that I was talking about you?

interstitial

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #316 on: July 27, 2019, 06:55:46 AM »
 :-X

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #317 on: July 27, 2019, 09:00:20 AM »
Rich, I am normally quite tolerant, and even more so towards new members. But I have been convinced there is a problem with some of your posts, and it's not about their content but about their tone. When you keep on arguing to the point of derailment due to overconfidence, when you relate to other posters as cult members, when you paint yourself as a martyr, and other examples too numerous to count, you piss people off and create dissension. I have no problem with claims of low or high momentum, this or that end if season forecast, and so on. In fact I often agree with your core content. But I still get pissed off, reading page after page of dissension which somehow involves you.

I think some humility would help fix things. It's not about you, it's about the science. Chill off. Don't take everything so personal. When you say something and are immediately told you are wrong by multiple posters, you probably are wrong. Take it to lightweight threads, go read source material (Wikipedia is often strong on the basic science but simple enough to.understand), rather than fight it out in high-rating threads. When given insults, ignore and move on, rather than insulting back. And avoid general attacks such as "cult" and so on. Humility and hard science are the proper tools here.

Stephan

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #318 on: July 27, 2019, 09:32:26 AM »
+
It is too late just to be concerned about Climate Change

RealityCheck

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #319 on: July 27, 2019, 10:44:16 AM »
A bit of pure speculation. Are we picking up on the fractious mood out there in the world?......

.....In the end, the world might reach
Stage 7 : ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation.

I think this is spot-on. Jung's 'collective subconscious' is a real thing. Both individually and collectively, humans will have to come to terms with a new reality, and for many people in 'the Majority World' especially, it won't be pretty. It will affect us all.  On ASIF, we all basically know this, and those in denial do too, I think. But it's easier to deny, and to Bargain, or blame everyone else in Anger, rather than face Despair. However, for many people, Acceptance can only come by working through despair - but there must be something to hold onto during that process. Maybe the thought that there is some good in the world, and it's worth fighting for. For me, I know I struggle to hold that thought... but I do it. Mostly.
These are actually the foundational ideas behind the Deep Adaptation Forum as well, for those here who might like to check it out...
Sic transit gloria mundi

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #320 on: July 27, 2019, 12:05:46 PM »
Thanks for your comment Oren. I respect your opinion as perhaps the most well rounded poster on the forum other than perhaps Neven.

A couple of things that that I would like to respond to.

To the point about overconfidence. My internal experience is a crisis approaching zero confidence that world leaders will arrive at a satisfactory response to ecological degradation.

To the point that  "it's about the science".

Is science an end in itself or should there be some social cost / benefit motivation? Is there an implied purpose for the science? Is it useful to ever step back and consider "why are we doing what we:re doing and are we heading in the right direction?"

Is there a place for social.science alongside the physical science?

I think it's pretty clear that there is an abundance of physical science that tells the ASIF community that we're committing ourselves to ecological harm. At this point, we're more or less preaching to the choir.

The answer to why humanity is heading over the cliff is a social science problem. It is an accumulation of the intrapersonal inertia of 7.7 billion people. The problem and the solution is inside of us. One at a time, enough of us must transform.

The catch-22 is that we live in a society where it is considered taboo to question each other's intrapersonal inertia. Someone like me comes along to rock the boat and the community rises as one to say "Stop. You're messing with our inertia here".

I'm asking hard but genuine questions. What is ASIF? In truth, it's different things to different people.

For more than a few, it's collapse porn. This is a pretty cool place to watch things crater. You've got a community with a good grip on the way things are falling apart. There:s a good market niche for collapse porn. It's something of a taboo subject in polite social circles. and this is a place where people can at least address the subject w/o worrying about being perceived as nuts.

Collapse porn is in such demand that people actually prioritize it as a service over actually fixing the root cause of the collapse.

In an ideal world, Neven is trying to put ASIF out of business. In an ideal world, our mission is to address the ecological challenge and kill the demand for interest in sea ice collapse.

I am certainly lobbying for that mission.

I lost my dad 2 years ago. It is a difficult lesson in impermanence which Neven is no doubt struggling with at this moment. We are all impermanent as is ASIF. ASIF will disappear when the ice disappears or when the threat of its disappearance goes away.

I prefer the latter.

I acknowledge that I have been disruptive. The gene pool has allowed a small percentage of oddballs like me to stick around. We're here for a reason. When the social norms are leading us on a path to disaster, it is useful to have people willing to break the social norms.

I'm not a martyr or a hero. Just an oddball activated by stressful circumstance. After 10,000 or so generations, it is surreal to realize that this is the moment in time when our species may be committing itself to an end. of sorts. We're supposed to have some individuals programmed to disrupt in such circumstances. It's part of the reason we've made it this far.
Cheers.

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #321 on: July 27, 2019, 12:45:21 PM »
Feel free to disrupt - in appropriate threads. The melting season thread is not for social activism. Neither is the data thread. The ASIF is full of other threads.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #322 on: July 27, 2019, 01:31:40 PM »
If you want to cut and paste a recent example of activist disruption on my part in the melting season thread, please feel free.

I don't think it should be considered disruptive to point out:

Lower area losses as a sign of diminished momentum

Thickness estimates as PIOMAS volume / NSIDC area

CAB losses below rate necessary to achieve a 2019 record

Please go back and re-read yesterday's thread. People are losing their shit in response to my posting bread and butter facts.

BBR is making the case that NSIDC area is wrong. Binntho is losing his mind and accusing me of lying about where I got the thickness # from. (It came from you and Gero.... where else would I get such a #?).

I am expressing my activist intentions here, not so much in the main thread. Part of that intention is expressed through data I share on the main thread.

I do point out the area data which points to reduced momentum. I do point out the perspective that the CAB is harder to melt due to depth and distance from heat advecting land masses. I am reporting SST data and location which enabled a user to see the distance between the CAB and high SST's.

IMO...that's science!

Everyday, Gerontocrat gives us the area data for a reason. It tells a story about momentum. IMO, BBR is the one who should be getting grief for saying that Gero is providing bad data. He's also shitting on the PIOMAS data. Why am I getting singled out as the bad guy?

I created a separate thread to explore the idea of a CAB subdivision in an effort to promote a more nuanced discussion of the CAB.

Somehow, Binntho translates that into an insult of Wipneus'? That is ludicrous and insane.

On July 15th, I posted that momentum was in jeopardy due to the 3,5 and 10 day forecast being close to 0C. Guess what..it happened.

But I'm attacked for saying that it was relatively cold?

I bring data to the melting season thread to support my posts there.

I screwed up a month ago big time and apologized for something that should have been on the Stupid Questions thread.

I'm not going to accept being held responsible fo other people's irrational, unconventional or antisocial responses to data I post. If someone like Binntho loses his mind and accuses me of lying I'm going to respond.

If you want to go back and look at the posts and maybe point out that maybe some of the responses to my posts were out of line, you're welcome to do that


Sterks

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #323 on: July 27, 2019, 05:01:33 PM »
I find your posts reasonable, Rich, even if sometimes I thought you had some reasoning needing some maturity. But doing good!
BBR is another species. His (or her) beliefs and reality (not even science) do not intersect that much. From the Arctic breaking in two in June, to the holes in Greenland ice, to the Hudson Bay keeping ice till September, to every year is a glaciation age, to every year will be BOE, to the ice is made of something that can't retain melt ponds and that's why we don't see them... F**K!!. I would tell you ignore him or her but I can't hold it anymore. I am to respond to every single crap this hyper-alarmist pseudo-scientist troll plants over the Forum, big or small.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 05:08:59 PM by Sterks »

jliukas

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #324 on: July 27, 2019, 05:29:09 PM »
I am to respond to every single crap this hyper-alarmist pseudo-scientist troll plants over the Forum, big or small.

Just please don't do it so that the main threads get clogged up.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #325 on: July 27, 2019, 05:56:35 PM »
I find your posts reasonable, Rich, even if sometimes I thought you had some reasoning needing some maturity.

Thank you for the comment and constructive criticism Sterks.

After the incoming barrage, I confess it feels good to have a little support.

I think if others would put their pitchforks and torches down and go through the posts methodically instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon, they would come up with a different conclusion, closer to yours.

petm

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #326 on: July 27, 2019, 06:01:54 PM »
Try to take the high road whenever possible. And yeah, this thread or a similar one is the place for everything not directly on-topic. :)

kassy

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #327 on: July 27, 2019, 06:22:27 PM »
Quote
If someone doesn't like what I post on the meaningless chatter thread or elsewhere, I'll be happy to engage there. Not taking the bait here.

But that is bait itself?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #328 on: July 27, 2019, 06:35:42 PM »
Quote
If someone doesn't like what I post on the meaningless chatter thread or elsewhere, I'll be happy to engage there. Not taking the bait here.

But that is bait itself?

Your comment is oblique to me. I don't understand the meaning.

My comment is just a declaration that I'm happy to engage HERE on OT subjects. That seems fair and in accordance with the wishes and customs of the community. I'm a transparent person with IMO, reasonable but perhaps unconventional objectives.

I'm happy for the opportunity to engage.

I sense you're looking for a "gotcha" with your question, but I'm against mind reading in principle. So if you don't mind, what are you trying to say?

Sterks

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #329 on: July 27, 2019, 06:48:11 PM »
I am to respond to every single crap this hyper-alarmist pseudo-scientist troll plants over the Forum, big or small.

Just please don't do it so that the main threads get clogged up.
That's just right, I'll try my best, chill out, and respond, if I do, in a civil way. Also sometimes I suspect we're dealing with a teenager, it's not worth escalating anyway.

Shared Humanity

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #330 on: July 27, 2019, 06:49:00 PM »
Off topic is off topic. Everyone here is bright enough to know when they are typing a comment that is going to derail a thread.

Just stop it.

HOW ABOUT THOSE CUBS!

Shared Humanity

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #331 on: July 27, 2019, 06:52:03 PM »
When someone types a hugely off topic comment on one of our main threads, if you type a lengthy response, I guarantee you it will also be off topic.

A simple "This is off topic. Please take this to the appropriate thread." is sufficient.

If the person responds that their needs to fully express themselves outweighs the purpose of this site, leave it to Neven to address.

(Neven... Have you ever considered appointing another as a moderator? I worry you take on too much. And no, I am not volunteering.)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 10:00:33 PM by Shared Humanity »

oren

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #332 on: July 27, 2019, 09:25:10 PM »
Rich, while I have some beef with your posting style, you can be certain I have more so both with bbr's insults and with his often-wild claims.
And yes, better to engage here than in the high threads.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #333 on: July 27, 2019, 09:42:30 PM »
Rich, while I have some beef with your posting style, you can be certain I have more so both with bbr's insults and with his often-wild claims.
And yes, better to engage here than in the high threads.

I'm trying to iterate to a better situation pretty rapidly here. BBR isn't the standard I'm trying to beat.

I think my intentions are emerging here so that others can get at least a clearer picture of where I'm coming from. It's unconventional and perhaps unrealistic, but most efforts to fight AGW don't yield much fruit. We keep peeling back the layers of the onion and experimenting.

Is there a method to the madness? I'll cop to the madness. I am a little loony.

Coffee Drinker

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #334 on: July 28, 2019, 03:36:12 AM »
I was looking for a tipping point in the Baltic but the Finns say there is a gradual extension of the melting season consistent with a warming climate.

i.e. transition without drama.
The Baltic still freezes every winter. Also, its freezing faith is tied to weather systems moving in from elsewhere.

Well, parts of the Baltic freezes every winter. The southern parts rarely freeze over anymore. But once the southern part is frozen, spring is usually delayed by a month. This is based on my personal experience.

nanning

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #335 on: July 28, 2019, 08:33:24 AM »
I think the Baltic still freezes in winter because there is still a lot of polar ocean sea ice. The Baltic doesn't seem to me to be a good metaphore for what'll happen when most of the arctic sea ice is gone. The Baltic doesn't make NH weather and polar jets.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #336 on: July 29, 2019, 10:59:34 PM »
Today had a good moment. The twice a day checking and charting the SST progression behind the scenes leads to my learning about the Chuchki Plateau and an example to support a correlation between SST's and bathymetry
 
bc comes along with a typical useless smart ass comment and Uniquorn comes along with a beautifully skilled gif to cement my point. I don't have those skills so many thanks to Uniquorn. A picture paints 1,000 words.

The point that I'm trying to make clicks with a few people and there is a data point which demonstrates I'm contributing to the scientific discussion. Even a broken clock is right twice a day ??

Anyway, it's a pyrrhic victory at best. I'm only trying to emphasize the connection with bathymetry and ice minimum to try and rationalize people's expectations of record minimums and BOE's. IMO, those things are much less likely and less important in the overall scheme of environmental disaster taking place. The goal is some alignment and optimization of energy toward addressing the bigger problem. What does that alignment ultimately look like? I dunno. I'm iterating. I'm pretty sure that BOE and record minima obsession is not it.

There a messiah complex at work inside me. Trying to save the world. There's no doubt a narcissism associated with believing you can make a difference in a world with nearly 8 billion people. But it's a benevolent narcissism. I'm not trying to engage in one upsmanship or win ego battles. Human civilization is literally and objectively passing points of no return. It's now or never.

I'm basically a deaf person in a remote cave with a cell phone and internet. I can read and write. Trying to make the most of that.

I also grew up with skeletal images of the Holocaust. As a Jew, I grappled with the brutality and sadism of humanity. Now it all makes sense. The phrase NEVER AGAIN doesn't mean we won't have another Holocaust. It means we don't stand quietly by while it happens.

kassy

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #337 on: July 29, 2019, 11:33:32 PM »
Quote
Even a broken clock is right twice a day ?

Do you complement it 2 times a day?

And you should skewer the reading/writing ratio. Or just look into your assumptions more.
If you want to save the world you have to be efficient. You do not need to convince us of anything so who would you seduce with which story where? 


Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #338 on: July 29, 2019, 11:37:11 PM »
Quote
Even a broken clock is right twice a day ?

Do you complement it 2 times a day?

And you should skewer the reading/writing ratio. Or just look into your assumptions more.
If you want to save the world you have to be efficient. You do not need to convince us of anything so who would you seduce with which story where?

If you have the recipe for efficiently saving the world, please write it and I'll read it.

No pride of ownership, I'll gladly follow you Kassy if you can lead the way.

be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #339 on: July 30, 2019, 12:39:49 AM »
 .. be your own Budda .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

be cause

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #340 on: July 30, 2019, 12:44:50 AM »
Hi Rich .. just noting my oh so bad comment was to recommend you look at Uniquorn's bathymetry work .. and lo .. you were blessed by some ..  b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

P-maker

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #341 on: July 30, 2019, 12:58:18 AM »
Rich,

Being rich is both an advantage and a drawback. Being rich means that you seem to have all the time in the day to write lengthy posts all over the ASIF. However, for ordinary, hard working people with friends and family to attend to also, it is really a nuisance to have to browse through all your postings every day in order to catch the gold nuggets in between

Being neurotic is also both a blessing and a nuisance. By definition it is about an inhability to deal with social interactions. Your constant postings - and the criticism following you in all threads - would be a clear warning to most of us.

Thus, "l shall say this only once!": Neven's site and the ASIF in particular - being a global site - means that when you go to bed tonight, people in NZ an AUS will wake up and try to squeeze in a few good laughs. After that, people in Europe may wake up and try to contribute with a few historical facts. At the end of the day, the yanks, the canadians and the mexicans maybe would like to chip in as well.

If you had spent more time reading than writing, you would most likely have observed this wonderful daily rythm, which is neatly adjusted to solar appearences. Please respect that good ideas, clever thoughts, wonderful images and intelligent reflections from a crowd of calm, well-meaning contributiors requires a slower speed from your hand. This may be more effective than the current hecticism.





kassy

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #342 on: July 30, 2019, 01:27:32 AM »
Maybe there is no recipe but you need to make a choice.
You want to try to save the world so you need to find your niche.

You never did answer the clock question. You just shift to a different position but why would you even think that a random someone on the internet would have the answer while it is not that simple.

Writing stuff is about influencing people so if you can only write to try to save the world which is what you want to do (or so you say) then you have to find out a way but that is your problem. I advise local activism because it helps when you know what you are talking about and who you are talking too.

Did you complement your clock twice a day?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

philopek

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #343 on: July 30, 2019, 01:49:17 AM »
Maybe there is no recipe but you need to make a choice.
You want to try to save the world so you need to find your niche.

You never did answer the clock question. You just shift to a different position but why would you even think that a random someone on the internet would have the answer while it is not that simple.

Writing stuff is about influencing people so if you can only write to try to save the world which is what you want to do (or so you say) then you have to find out a way but that is your problem. I advise local activism because it helps when you know what you are talking about and who you are talking too.

Did you complement your clock twice a day?

Ascetic lifestyle is perhaps a bit too disconnected to be able to mediate between the
high-speed consumer world and a feasible median.

IMO only someone on that median can mediate. Extremists cannot mediate because they are living in another sphere and often lost flexibility needed to fetch each person where it is and not where he/she thinks everyone should be.

They cannot reach their auditorium because there extreme views and terms are either denied or not comprehensive for the average people.

Also not unimportant is the fact that righteousness is often an issue with those who think that they are "holier-than-you"

And I'm not saying that I'm better at it which is exactly why i know. Even though I'm not ascetic
but still at about 10% of an average footprint where i live and even less compared to those living in colder places.

Finally I'm on 1000kcal per day, no heating, no warm water (available but not used) no car, no flying around anymore but i have a two-wheeler.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:24:51 AM by philopek »

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #344 on: July 30, 2019, 02:05:29 AM »
Hi Rich .. just noting my oh so bad comment was to recommend you look at Uniquorn's bathymetry work .. and lo .. you were blessed by some ..  b.c.

I have looked at his work and to be honest, it's going to take time to assimilate a lot of understanding of all the aspects of the oceans that he attempts to illustrate.

That said, I was try to make an extremely simple point about very basic variables. In all the time that he has spent looking at the data, he hadn't connected the dots to the simple thing I was pointing out.

My OP preceded and prompted his contribution. His gif was an attempt to prove I was wrong and inadvertently supported my point.

I'm not pretending to be a genius, but I am trying to think critically and add value. I do try and follow Uniquorn:s work, but today I felt it worthwhile to share my own observations and hypothesis. I would not have found that from looking at his prior work.

Bruce Steele

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #345 on: July 30, 2019, 02:08:00 AM »
I don't think saving the world is the correct scale. And maybe looking from a top down perspective ,save the world , save everybody else ,it is also unlikely to draw followers or support.
 Showing people and helping people to understand there is a way forward that both eliminates, or nearly eliminates their carbon footprint while still providing a reasonably comfortable existence , running water, modern plumbing, a comfortable house or trailer, and food on the table . Show people a way to achieve a life that looks as good or better than the one they are living then maybe you'll have some converts.
 The one thing required is some affordable land to live and farm upon.Cities and people who live in them will never be carbon neutral. Anyway figure out something that both works and is appealing and you can at least save a few people for awhile. You will need help and you will need to accept help.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #346 on: July 30, 2019, 02:31:05 AM »
Rich,

Being rich is both an advantage and a drawback. Being rich means that you seem to have all the time in the day to write lengthy posts all over the ASIF. However, for ordinary, hard working people with friends and family to attend to also, it is really a nuisance to have to browse through all your postings every day in order to catch the gold nuggets in between.

If you had spent more time reading than writing...

Rich is my name, not my economic status. Far from it.

The definition of the gold nugget is in the eyes of the beholder.

I am only one person on ASIF and my total contribution is a small fraction. The signal : noise ratio is very low in total with or w/o me. I'm investing my time trying to make it clear that the tremendous amount of attention on record minima and BOE is noise. It might be a gold nugget for some to understand that a BOE isn't a high priority thing to concern themselves with.


You are not in a position to judge how much I read nor is reading the only method of learning and observation. Meditating over SST maps and anomalies isn't reading, but it informs.

Rich

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #347 on: July 30, 2019, 02:49:18 AM »
Maybe there is no recipe but you need to make a choice.
You want to try to save the world so you need to find your niche.

I advise local activism because it helps when you know what you are talking about and who you are talking too.

Did you complement your clock twice a day?

Being functionally deaf makes local activism difficult.

If you want to frame the clock question in a more literal manner, I'll be happy to answer.

Today I wanted to advertise that a few people were willing to come out and publicly agree with me. I am more of a target as an isolated bullseye.

If you have an agenda that you want to promote, it's not a crime to do some marketing. Once people realize that it's ok to believe that the Arctic BOE might not come for 50 years, they can approach it with a different attitude.

Groupthink is a real thing.

Rod

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #348 on: July 30, 2019, 02:55:31 AM »
Hi Rich .. just noting my oh so bad comment was to recommend you look at Uniquorn's bathymetry work .. and lo .. you were blessed by some ..  b.c.

I have looked at his work and to be honest, it's going to take time to assimilate a lot of understanding of all the aspects of the oceans that he attempts to illustrate.

That said, I was try to make an extremely simple point about very basic variables. In all the time that he has spent looking at the data, he hadn't connected the dots to the simple thing I was pointing out.

My OP preceded and prompted his contribution. His gif was an attempt to prove I was wrong and inadvertently supported my point.

I'm not pretending to be a genius, but I am trying to think critically and add value. I do try and follow Uniquorn:s work, but today I felt it worthwhile to share my own observations and hypothesis. I would not have found that from looking at his prior work.

Wikipedia

Internet troll

Quote
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


Rod

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Re: meaningless freezingseason/melting season chatter.
« Reply #349 on: July 30, 2019, 03:24:04 AM »

If you have an agenda that you want to promote, it's not a crime to do some marketing. Once people realize that it's ok to believe that the Arctic BOE might not come for 50 years, they can approach it with a different attitude.

Groupthink is a real thing.

This asshole has been playing us.   He is straight from WUWT with a more savvy way of trying to sow discontent.