Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Freeform season chatter and light commentary  (Read 323521 times)

El Cid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 935
  • Likes Given: 227
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1300 on: December 18, 2022, 08:27:35 PM »
So he says that AMOC's heat content is many orders of magnitude bigger than potential cooling by Greenland ice and/or meltwater.

BUT.

How come that only one spot cools? There seems to be huge amounts of heat off the NE USA coast and there is also plenty of heat around Iceland and the Barents. if the AMOC did slow down, those areas shouldn't be so warm either. there's a "gap" in the AMOc and not a continuous cooling.  So, I am not convinced,

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1301 on: December 19, 2022, 10:00:27 AM »
So he says that AMOC's heat content is many orders of magnitude bigger than potential cooling by Greenland ice and/or meltwater.

BUT.

How come that only one spot cools? There seems to be huge amounts of heat off the NE USA coast and there is also plenty of heat around Iceland and the Barents. if the AMOC did slow down, those areas shouldn't be so warm either. there's a "gap" in the AMOc and not a continuous cooling.  So, I am not convinced,

I've been thinking along those lines as well. But the AMOC is complicated, and most of the actual overturning in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Current takes place south of Greenland, with a secondary branch leading up past the UK to Iceland and points north. So perhaps these should be viewed seperately?
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1302 on: December 20, 2022, 08:06:51 AM »
Another article, this time in severe-weather.eu all about the cold blob and the AMOC. This is an interesting article and this website usually has quite good and informative stuff. This time however I find the number of errors annoying. The most glaring one is to claim that the cold blob is in the Irminger sea "just north of the Arctic circle" .

Glacier melt has slowed down these last 10 years in south-east Greenland, in Iceland and elsewhere within the zone of effect of the AMOC. Whether this slowdown is related to the cold blob is really the question, and to my mind, the arguments in this article are not fully convincing.

As a Result of an Impressive Cold Blob Anomaly in the North Atlantic, Glaciers in Parts of Greenland, Iceland, and Norway are now Slowing Down From Melting
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1303 on: December 20, 2022, 08:10:44 AM »
And now for the totally opposite view, in a paper linked in the article from my previous post.

Quote
We show that the strong local atmospheric forcing is predominantly responsible for the negative sea surface temperature anomalies observed in the subpolar North Atlantic in 2015 and that there is no evidence of permanently weakened deep convection.

Strong winter cooling over the Irminger Sea in winter 2014–2015, exceptional deep convection, and the emergence of anomalously low SST
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9833
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3596
  • Likes Given: 4036
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1304 on: December 20, 2022, 08:35:58 AM »
Some of these posts would be useful in other threads such as AMOC and Greenland.

nadir

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2327
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 37
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1305 on: January 20, 2023, 06:34:26 AM »
Excellent, undeniable, representation of the data by Zach Labe

https://twitter.com/zlabe/status/1616252359327219715?s=46&t=w-I846hibwDN4N6weJLlHg

Bardian

  • New ice
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1306 on: January 31, 2023, 05:26:18 PM »
Especially Warm November on Svalbard and Iceland

https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/especially-warm-november-svalbard-and-iceland

This prolonged heatwave prevented cooling of Barents Sea and Westspitsbergen current, a very stretched Polar Vortex mainly caused this.

"Sometimes, a strong ocean anomaly can indicate the overall global configuration. So rather than being an actual cause of changes to come, it is just a result of large-scale changes that later also bring new weather patterns."

https://www.severe-weather.eu/global-weather/ocean-anomaly-atlantic-gulf-stream-forecast-winter-united-states-europe-fa/

Reasons behind stalling freezing season?


gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 21111
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5325
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1307 on: February 12, 2023, 09:49:42 AM »
What to do when insomnia strikes? This early a.m. the solution was to play with the data.

On the freezing thread lots of discussion on whether a high maximum tends to produce greater melt and vice versa. So instead of looking at maxima and minima I looked instead at maxima and total melt.

The first graph just shows the maxima and total melt year by year from 1979 to 2022. The maxima are reducing and the melt is increasing. I then looked to see if there is a correlation between the two.

The second graph - an X-Y graph - says yes, though with a low R2 coefficient of determination of 0.25.

I then thought - let's have a look at the Rankings, as sometimes ranking works better at teasing out a relationship between two variables. The third graph shows the rankings of the maxima and the total melt. The R2 value is high in both cases; over 0.8.

So on the 4th graph I plotted the rankings of melt against the rankings of the maxima on an X-Y graph, and got an R2 value of 0.75. Impressive and a surprise.

EDIT I also did the Pearson Correlation Coefficient (range 1 to -1)which comes on at -0.87, i.e. even stronger.

Is this cause and effect or are both affected by another variable? In my view the underlying cause is AGW + Polar Amplification. This is the driver of increased melt and reductions in the winter maxima.

end of story
EDIT: Perhaps not end of story - maybe a look at Air Temps 60 to 90 North and - if the data can be found -Arctic Ocean temperatures.

click images to enlarge
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 02:47:16 PM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

icy voyeur2

  • New ice
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1308 on: February 12, 2023, 04:51:25 PM »
What to do when insomnia strikes? This early a.m. the solution was to play with the data.

On the freezing thread lots of discussion on whether a high maximum tends to produce greater melt and vice versa. So instead of looking at maxima and minima I looked instead at maxima and total melt.
...

Hypothesis: the more important predictor of a year of higher than average melt, or higher than average freezing (and lower than average melt, and lower than average freezing) is the offset from the trend line from the prior season.

Rephrased, after a strong freezing season, high ice area, extent, or volume compared to the long term trend lines, there will follow a season with higher than average melt.

Trivially, this must be true to effect a trendline. The greater the slope, the higher the correlation must be, or else the trend would end. However it isn't necessary for the recovery to trend to happen in the next season as opposed to over 2, 3, or more years.

The casual way of saying this might be that strong freezing seasons produce ice in vulnerable seas. Strong melting seasons melt ice in where ice still belongs. It is more than a little bit trite but it can be interesting to see to what extent the data conforms.

I would hazard that if the data does not conform closely, that is a testament to the extent to which weather events (clusters of weather events?) drive the variance off of the long term trends. I just wish I knew of a scale for "closely" as used above.

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1309 on: February 12, 2023, 10:09:04 PM »
I think there is a little more do it that a simpe linear correlation.  Prior ro 2004, the winter maximum always exceeded 15.3 M km3.  The correlation between winter maximum and annual melt was quite poor (R2=0.038), with a slight increase in melt with increasing maximam.  Every year following, the max has been above 15.3.  There appears to be a slightly better correlation (R2=0.14), and a higher trend line, but much of that is due to the high maximum and melt in 2012.  Removing that data point, and the lines are quite similar.

Phil.

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 77
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1310 on: February 12, 2023, 11:35:28 PM »
I think there is a little more do it that a simpe linear correlation.  Prior ro 2004, the winter maximum always exceeded 15.3 M km3.  The correlation between winter maximum and annual melt was quite poor (R2=0.038), with a slight increase in melt with increasing maximam.  Every year following, the max has been above 15.3.  There appears to be a slightly better correlation (R2=0.14), and a higher trend line, but much of that is due to the high maximum and melt in 2012.  Removing that data point, and the lines are quite similar.

" Every year following, the max has been above 15.3."  Shouldn't that be 'below 15.3'?

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1311 on: February 13, 2023, 12:17:05 AM »
I think there is a little more do it that a simpe linear correlation.  Prior ro 2004, the winter maximum always exceeded 15.3 M km3.  The correlation between winter maximum and annual melt was quite poor (R2=0.038), with a slight increase in melt with increasing maximam.  Every year following, the max has been above 15.3.  There appears to be a slightly better correlation (R2=0.14), and a higher trend line, but much of that is due to the high maximum and melt in 2012.  Removing that data point, and the lines are quite similar.

" Every year following, the max has been above 15.3."  Shouldn't that be 'below 15.3'?

Yes.  My bad.

FredBear

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 67
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1312 on: February 14, 2023, 03:22:10 AM »
Pettit Climate Graphs used to have some interesting ways of visualising maximum/minimum/melt each year but unfortunately they don't seem to be updated for the past couple of years:-

http://iwantsomeproof.com/extimg/siv_annual_max_loss_and_ice_remaining.png

Also my comment about the resilience of the 80o north average temperature graph to global warming would be that "it just proves how effective the polar ice is in maintaining the stability of the temperature". Compare that with the record temperatures occurring recently in ice-free areas, plus the vast quantities of water produced from "atmospheric rivers" which have been flooding large areas? Maybe everyone really needs to value that ice more (and do everything we can to maintain its presence!)

Steven

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 964
    • View Profile
    • Arctic sea ice data and graphs
  • Liked: 489
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1313 on: February 18, 2023, 10:23:59 PM »
I built a Google Site with an overview of my Dropbox graphs and spreadsheets, since it's getting rather hard to keep track of all the links:

https://sites.google.com/view/arctic-sea-ice

The website is still under construction, but most of the content is there now, for PIOMAS, CryoSat and OSISAF. 

I wrote some scripts to update the graphs on the website.  This seems to work, but it has the drawback that the images are loading slowly.

uniquorn

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5203
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2217
  • Likes Given: 388
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1314 on: February 18, 2023, 11:05:46 PM »
Thanks Steven, the images loaded fine for me.

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 21111
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5325
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1315 on: February 19, 2023, 12:42:00 AM »
& thanks from me, Steven. A really neat piece of work.

I wish I was as well organised.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

VeliAlbertKallio

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 296
  • Eheu fugaces labuntur anni
    • View Profile
    • Sea Research Society (SRS)
  • Liked: 120
  • Likes Given: 137
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1316 on: February 27, 2023, 04:44:32 AM »
"I have no idea what the Arctic (& beyond) weather consequences will be, but the GFS forecast is for colder surface temperatures over the Central Arctic and the Atlantic front 6-10 days out from now."

It might not be coincidence, but for the first time over 100 years Saudi Arabia has had snowfall. Whatever triggered that must have been significant: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=416.0;attach=366434;image https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,416.0.html

The Sudden Stratospheric Warming Event (SSW) continues to evolve.

At 10hPa the event seems to be winding down. Temperatures at the North Pole and at lower latitudes are in decline. The switch to Easterly from Westerly wind contines to expand southwards, now extending to beyond 40 degrees North, but returning to Westerly at the North Pole.

I have no idea what the Arctic (& beyond) weather consequences will be, but the GFS forecast is for colder surface temperatures over the Central Arctic and the Atlantic front 6-10 days out from now.

Lots of interesting images at https://ds.data.jma.go.jp/tcc/tcc/products/clisys/STRAT/
"Setting off atomic bombs is considered socially pungent as the years are made of fleeting ice that are painted by the piling up of the rays of the sun."

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9833
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3596
  • Likes Given: 4036
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1317 on: February 27, 2023, 06:42:53 AM »
Moved here from the season thread. Not entirely on topic, also missing a source and I'm not sure it can pass fact-checking.

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1318 on: February 27, 2023, 07:36:45 AM »
Fact check failure indeed - as your friend Google will tell you!

A quick Google search shows that snowfall is not all that unusual in Saudi - it seems that every winter sees some snow in some parts of the country. Details are scarce but Wikipedia has an interesting article on a big and extensive snowstorm in November 2016. Same year, Syria and Israel saw som snow too.

I recently saw pictures of snowfall in Florida ... "the end times are here!" was my first thought, but another quick Google search shows that snowfall is not unknown in Florida - 29 reported events in the 21st century according to Wikipedia.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9833
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3596
  • Likes Given: 4036
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1319 on: February 27, 2023, 09:13:29 AM »
Thank you binntho!

Feeltheburn

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 214
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1320 on: March 03, 2023, 09:13:21 AM »
Century break today.
Feel The Burn!

Glen Koehler

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 1425
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1321 on: March 05, 2023, 09:05:59 PM »
     I can't say that I think it will be this year or even the next, but a little voice is telling me that all the models and experts get lost in the nooks and crannies of their detailed understanding of ASI behavior and are 'missing the forest for the trees'. It is human nature to expect the status quo to continue and for things not to change until one day, voila, things change.
 
     If correct, this hunch points toward the poop hitting the fan with respect to ASI much sooner than expected. This could take the form of another 2012 negative 2 standard deviation freak show brewing within the next few years.

    The recipe is having the temperature impact of the next solar maximum (most likely ca. 2025-28 due to a 1 - 2 year global temperature lag after the sunspot maximum, but perhaps sooner), coincide with another strongish El Nino like it did in 2016.  Throw in some wacky weather - high pressure and blue skies in June, an atmospheric river in July, an Arctic cyclone in August, and you have the ingredients for an ASI wipeout melt year. 

    If/when that happens, the system will bounce back with a recovery of sorts.  But as with the great dying of MYI in the early 2000s, even when the ASI recovers from one of these accumulative intermittent insults, it does not quite come all the way back and remains systematically changed.  And the inexorable downward trend lines resume/continue. 

    Perhaps I am just subconsciously projecting precarious aspects of my dented personality onto the ice.  My basis for this hunch is less than anecdotal, just a bunch of niggling observations that almost always point in the downward direction.  The ice pack this past year has just seemed creaky here, leaky there, weak everywhere, and rotting out from the inside.  Todays' additions being the CryoSat estimate that as we near the peak of winter refreeze, the ice is not very thick across the Laptev - ESS - Chukchi - Beaufort arc.  As the CAB continues to battle the melt forces on the Atlantic front, on the supposedly safe (Pacific) backside things are not looking that great either.  Meanwhile ice keeps shooting down the Nares Strait, draining the "Last Ice Refuge" as if some nefarious James Bond villain had installed high-speed pumps to corner the ice cube market  (fodder for the conspiracy theorists). All this and melting season hasn't even started yet. 

    As we approach the starting gun for the next melting season, do others feel this disquiet?  Even better, do you have a rational basis to illuminate this foreboding that the ASI situation is even worse than what the scientists report (which is plenty bad already.)  I guess many if not most of us feel this way to some degree.  That's why we tune into the ASIF to watch the slow-motion train wreck unfold.

    In any case, thanks to all the yeoman data miners and analysts who keep the ship afloat.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 09:31:11 PM by Glen Koehler »
“What is at stake.... Everything, I would say." ~ Julienne Stroeve

HapHazard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 844
  • Chillin' on Cold Mountain.
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 290
  • Likes Given: 5342
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1322 on: March 06, 2023, 05:12:35 AM »
FWIW I'm in the same general frame of mind as you are, GK. I don't have the time nor wherewithal to create such meaningful posts akin to what I keep coming back for from all the regulars here, but I've been casually sticking my nose into this Arctic sea ice business since around 2007 and the fuzzy ideas I've come around to since around 10 years ago have been within the margins of error thus far. And things just keep getting more interesting lately... a Confucian curse for the Arctic, as it were, from my POV.
If I call you out but go no further, the reason is Brandolini's law.

El Cid

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 935
  • Likes Given: 227
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1323 on: March 06, 2023, 08:09:41 AM »
As I have said previously on these pages I "discovered" a teleconnection: a warm European winter means big Arctic ice loss during the next summer. Of course it is probably just a coincidence, but maybe there is some truth in it...

the warmest winters in Europe were (in this order): 2019/20, 2015/16, 2006/2007 (BUT: 2011/12 was cold! and the quite warm 2013/14 was a recovery year, so it is far from perfect)

We do not yet have final data for 2022/23, but it seems to me from preliminary data that it is a bit below 2006/2007 so probably number 4 in warmth, ie. pretty warm.

If there is any predictive ability of a warm European winter for Arctic ice loss the next summer then the outlook for 2023 is pretty dangerous in the Arctic. This - coupled with ever more obvious Atlantification in the Barents region - makes me say that we are going to end up in the bottom 3 for SIA /SIE this summer. 


dnem

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 319
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1324 on: March 06, 2023, 01:25:05 PM »
I'm just putting my marker down here as well. I've been meaning to write a post like Glen's as we approach this year's maximum. I have said this before and I'm saying it again:

The transition will be slow until it isn't.

We will have an extradorinaiy, multi-sigma event in the next handful of years.

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1325 on: March 06, 2023, 08:36:10 PM »
I'm just putting my marker down here as well. I've been meaning to write a post like Glen's as we approach this year's maximum. I have said this before and I'm saying it again:

The transition will be slow until it isn't.

We will have an extradorinaiy, multi-sigma event in the next handful of years.

I don't see it.  Eventually perhaps, but nothing has changed much over the past decade to indicate such a transition.

kassy

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2064
  • Likes Given: 2004
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1326 on: March 06, 2023, 09:35:20 PM »
As I have said previously on these pages I "discovered" a teleconnection: a warm European winter means big Arctic ice loss during the next summer. Of course it is probably just a coincidence, but maybe there is some truth in it...

I think that´s too simple.
In general lower snow cover in the N-Hemisphere is a good predictor for lower SIE at the end of the season. So you should check all the years were it works and the outliers for the general trend for the hemisphere.

Also it probably works the other way around so long term Arctic ice loss influences Europe but the atlantification of the Barents makes it worse.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4070
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1005
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1327 on: March 06, 2023, 10:13:47 PM »
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. For the last decade Arctic sea ice volume minimum has reached a bottom that'll need some very special summer weather to melt out. I believe that winter freeze and summer melt is keeping eachother in some sort of equilibrium right now. This is because the easiest ice to melt out along the coast is already gone due to the easier heating up of the landmass around it. The remaining ice is in the center of the basin, surrounded by water that takes a lot longer to heat up than the land. And there's never enough time left to do that. Summer is just too short for that.

What we need to melt out the last of the remaining ice is a melting season like in 2020 topped off with a 2012 type August GAC that'll destroy the last of the ice. So basically a roll of the dice that'll be a one time event. The year after that we'll probably get back to a 4000m3 minimum sea ice volume. Probably an even higher volume due to the massive oceanic heat loss a GAC will cause.

Unless off course that GAC is powerful enough to destroy stratification and bring up heat from the deep. But I don't know if that's possible. Is it?

« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 10:28:25 PM by Freegrass »
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

dnem

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 319
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1328 on: March 07, 2023, 01:03:22 AM »
I'm just putting my marker down here as well. I've been meaning to write a post like Glen's as we approach this year's maximum. I have said this before and I'm saying it again:

The transition will be slow until it isn't.

We will have an extradorinaiy, multi-sigma event in the next handful of years.

I don't see it.  Eventually perhaps, but nothing has changed much over the past decade to indicate such a transition.

You don't see it, Walrus?! Shocked, shocked!

johnm33

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 806
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 131
  • Likes Given: 127
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1329 on: March 07, 2023, 10:36:09 AM »
Quote
nothing has changed much over the past decade
Except the thickness of the layer beneath the ice, once 150m thick now in places nearing 70 which is the depth of the ice entrained layer. What that suggests is that with more movement we'll see more internal waves and where these are cross-hatched, Beaufort for instance, there'll be heat passed upwards. Also given the recent, from Gero, Fram export nos. which measure ice loss but imply an underlying current and probably the cause of the thinning of the upper layer it seems the situation can only get worse and it can only be a matter of time before the AW layer is directly beneath the ice.
Look at Uni's recent bouy movement where there's a clear general drift from Wrangel-ish towards Nares/Fram this suggests an increase in AW penetration towards ESS and Pacific water ingress, the latter already appears to be passing through the CAA more readily.

FredBear

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 67
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1330 on: March 07, 2023, 11:21:47 AM »
Partial Quote

    "nothing has changed much over the past decade"

This true if you insist on measurements only in predetermined limits but if a wider picture is viewed it is easy to see changes in the total global picture. Measurements all round the southerly limits of the polar ice record temperatures are being recorded together with "atmospheric rivers" dumping  huge quantities of water into other global regions. If those two things reach into the polar ice everything could fall apart very rapidly    .     .     ?

Here in the UK (southeast corner, at least) is another dry spring - then suddenly we are met with a strong arctic blast and our mild, wet Atlantic weather is deflected south flooding parts of the Mediterranean.
What we are seeing is some of the forecasts from years ago that unexpected changes to the complex climate system will just begin to happen!

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4070
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1005
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1331 on: March 07, 2023, 11:47:11 AM »
Quote
nothing has changed much over the past decade
Except the thickness of the layer beneath the ice, once 150m thick now in places nearing 70 which is the depth of the ice entrained layer. What that suggests is that with more movement we'll see more internal waves and where these are cross-hatched, Beaufort for instance, there'll be heat passed upwards. Also given the recent, from Gero, Fram export nos. which measure ice loss but imply an underlying current and probably the cause of the thinning of the upper layer it seems the situation can only get worse and it can only be a matter of time before the AW layer is directly beneath the ice.
Look at Uni's recent bouy movement where there's a clear general drift from Wrangel-ish towards Nares/Fram this suggests an increase in AW penetration towards ESS and Pacific water ingress, the latter already appears to be passing through the CAA more readily.
Yes, some changes are happening of course, but looking at ice volume at minimum, nothing has changed much. Gerontocrat has just posted PIOMAS volume close to maximum, and that's still at levels from 10 years ago as well.

Gero, do you have an ice volume chart for only the Arctic basin without the peripheral seas? I would love to know if max ice volume has stabilized there as well like I presume. Or in other words; can we find out how much ice is made in the basin during winter compared to how much is lost during summer every year? Do the numbers prove or disprove my theory that those 2 are keeping eachother more or less in balance?

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1332 on: March 07, 2023, 12:37:00 PM »
The remaining ice is in the center of the basin, surrounded by water that takes a lot longer to heat up than the land.

And again we see the old misunderstanding that land somehow trumps water when it comes to absorbing, storing and transferring energy.

Water absorbs radiative heat down to a depth of several meters, while land absorbs at the very best down to a few cms. On average, 95% of global radiative heat is absorbed by the oceans, even if they only cover 70% of the globe. And this heat is transported by the ocean currents to the far ends of the earth, indluding the Arctic Ocean!

Yes, land "heats up" quicker because it radiates the energy back into the atmosphere on a sunny day. The ocean simply absorbs the energy without raising the temperature of the atmosphere above - but causing all the more danger to the ice!

Arctic sea ice is currently protected by land - keeping it colder during winter, extending the effective snow-and-ice covered high-albedo area of the Northern Hemisphere by millions of km2 each year in excess of what would be the case if the North Pole was in the middle of the Pacific, to take an extreme example. And the land keeps the ocean away from the ice, with the exception of the North Atlantic front where this barrier is semi-broken. Which is why open water can here be found north of 80N even in midwinter - it is the ocean that brings the heat and the energy to melt the ice.

Once the ice is fully surrounded by ocean, it will disappear very rapidly. Within the Arctic Ocean proper (i.e. the area currently covered by ice), the more open water, the faster the melt.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 02:04:50 PM by binntho »
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4070
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1005
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1333 on: March 07, 2023, 02:25:09 PM »
I understand what you're saying Binntho, and you're absolutely right. But we have to look at the Arctic as a stable system that is now rapidly changing, and changes are happening much faster on land than in the ocean. If the Earth would truly be only earth, without water, it would have heated up a lot faster by now. It is our ocean that is preventing the planet from heating up more rapidly. That's why I believe that the coastline of the Arctic - that touches land - has melted more rapidly than the ice that's surrounded by water.

Also keep in mind that most of that water is covered by ice for approximately 9 or 10 months of the year, which reflects much of that solar energy back into space. Hence my statement that there's not enough time to heat up that water.

But you are right of course that Atlantification is happening. But that's a much slower process than the rising temperature on land, no? That's why I believe that we've lost ice along the coast in a relatively short period of time, while the remaining ice surrounded by water will take a lot longer to melt.

Edit:
I do understand that the Barents sea has heated up a lot more than any other place in the Arctic, but that's because it is being fed heated up water from the Gulf stream, and isn't covered by any reflective ice anymore. So yes, that water is absorbing a lot more heat, and that Atlantification is a serious problem. But if you look at the ice edge on the Atlantic side, it hasn't moved back as much or as fast as the ice on the Pacific and Siberian side, right? And that's probably because it's already closer to the pole? Or in other words; we're getting new record minimums because of the ice that is melting on the Pacific and Siberian side. Ice extent on the Atlantic front fluctuates much less.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 02:58:30 PM by Freegrass »
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1334 on: March 07, 2023, 03:37:56 PM »
I'm just putting my marker down here as well. I've been meaning to write a post like Glen's as we approach this year's maximum. I have said this before and I'm saying it again:

The transition will be slow until it isn't.

We will have an extradorinaiy, multi-sigma event in the next handful of years.

I don't see it.  Eventually perhaps, but nothing has changed much over the past decade to indicate such a transition.

You don't see it, Walrus?! Shocked, shocked!

Why are you so shocked?  Just look at the graphs.  Very little has changed in the past decade.  Both the transition from a slow decline to a rapid decline and back again were rather abrupt.  Which is why I stated that it could happen again - eventually.  From a physics standpoint, it appeared to be more of a change from vullnerable ice disappearing from lower latitudes and ocean currents due to warmer waters and winter temperatures.  The remaining ice is in a more favorable area for formation every year and away from those areas of rapid melt.  Thinking that the rapid melt that began last century will reoccur, misses the overall reason for that rapid melt in the first place.


oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9833
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3596
  • Likes Given: 4036
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1335 on: March 07, 2023, 05:15:00 PM »
Walrus, why do your middle segment lines begin higher than the first segment ending and end lower than the third segment beginning? A neat trick to accentuate the trend break more than it is in reality.

gerontocrat

  • Multi-year ice
  • Posts: 21111
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5325
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1336 on: March 07, 2023, 05:23:33 PM »
Gero, do you have an ice volume chart for only the Arctic basin without the peripheral seas?

Posted said graph (& others) on the PIOMAS thread

GO TO.....
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,119.msg361287.html#msg361287

Gero
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1337 on: March 07, 2023, 05:45:22 PM »
If the Earth would truly be only earth, without water, it would have heated up a lot faster by now.
It is our ocean that is preventing the planet from heating up more rapidly.

I doubt that very much. The oceans are vastly more important than dry land in the context of global warming - most of the heat already accumulated in the earth system has been absorbed by the oceans, and the oceans store the heat during night and winter and distribute the heat towards the poles. Dry land can do none of these things. Without the oceans, the earth would be a hell of a lot colder than it is, and the effects of global warming would be far less.

This is not about "Atlantification" - it is about the oceans being vastly more efficient at absorbing and distributing energy (both as heat and as kinetic energy) than the atmosphere. Terra firma comes a poor third in this context.

The girdle of land surrounding the Arctic ocean is the only reason why the entire ocean freezes over during winter, and why it takes so long to melt the ice during summer. Free the ice from the land, and it will melt much faster.

The oceans carry conveyor belts of heat towards the poles, but the Arctic Ocean is protected - except only partially on the Atlantic side. The oceans are also the main source of cyclonic activity, and the cyclones tend to travel north-east over the Atlantic. It is their gateway into the Arctic. The cyclones and the ocean heat is a contionous attack that will kill the Arctic ice, not some non-existent "heat over land" effect which is both inefficient and transient.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Glen Koehler

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 1425
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1338 on: March 07, 2023, 06:06:57 PM »
<snip>
Once the ice is fully surrounded by ocean, it will disappear very rapidly. Within the Arctic Ocean proper (i.e. the area currently covered by ice), the more open water, the faster the melt.

    The ASI maximum Extent in the Arctic Ocean basin is constrained by land.  Thus in the colder years of the 1970s and 1980s there was a cap on how much Extent the high Arctic seas could contribute.  The recent increase of open water around the periphery of the Arctic Ocean that is able to absorb solar radiation early in the melting season could be an accelerating factor as Binnto notes.  And previous reductions in ASI did not show up in the annual maximum Extent values because there was still enough Extent at the winter max to reach the land boundary edges.  But as ASI reductions progress, the maximum Extent fails to reach the land boundary at an increasing number of locations.  Once that begins to happen regularly, any further reductions do appear as a smaller contribution to the total Extent at maximum.
 
     The increase in fall and early winter cooling from more open water going into the winter refreeze season is a negative feedback that has almost kept pace with increasing summer melt.  There was a great paper posted by Gero on that topic:  see https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2348.msg354450.html#msg354450.  If you read only one ASI journal article this year, that is the one to read IMHO.  It deposes the "Slow Transition" theory.  It showed that as summer melt has increased over recent decades, winter refreeze has increased almost as much, thus compensating for the increasing summer melt, thus the "Slow Transition".  That is, until now.

     The study found that going forward, melt season losses will continue to increase AND winter refreeze has passed its peak and is also declining.  Thus winter refreeze ceases to be a negative feedback and begins to become an additional source of year-to-year decline.  The winter refreeze decline slope is almost level for the next few years, but as we get farther past the crest of the hill, the negative slope increases.  This all means (to me at least) that the relative stasis in annual minimum Ext/Area/Vol that we have seen for the past 10 years is going to end soon.  And that the year-to-year annual decline in annual minimum values will progressively increase. 

     I do not know if the projections for the continuation of the trend for increased melt season losses and a change of direction from winter refreeze increases to a negative trend account for qualitative functional changes that could accelerate negative trends for both (i.e. more wind fetch and wave action, thinner/younger/more saline ice, less mechanical resistance to pack shattering, halocline thinning, more warm air or cyclone incursions, and the rest of ASI doomer catechism).  If not fully accounted for in those projections, one of more of these other factors could add gasoline to the fire as a systematic change in Arctic behavior that would result in a major increase in losses. 

     The fact that nobody saw 2007 or 2012 coming beforehand, and that science can barely explain those years even with the benefit of hindsight indicates that we underappreciate the dynamism of ASI.  That applies to either direction, up or down.  But these days everything about ASI seems to be mostly down.

     The geographic argument is pertinent, i.e. that ice at 90 north stays colder and is less likely to get warm enough to melt than the ice at lower latitudes that began melting out in the 1990s, 2000s, 2010s).  But down here at midlatitude, the average temperature bands have moved northward at about 4km per year in recent decades (and that rate is probably increasing).  It does not sound like much that becomes 40+km per decade.  So even though the north pole hasn't moved, the warm air is moving north to gradually erode some of that geographic protection.  (No change in the geographic distribution of solar radiation AFAIK).

     There may be other negative feedbacks not accounted for in this view.  My bias towards positive feedbacks may interfere with noticing negative feedbacks that may also increase with further ASI declines.  But the "more open water in fall = more ocean heat loss" and the "ice at the  highest latitudes stays colder" are the only ones I know of, and those two do not seem likely to hold out much longer. 

     I have to think that the models that show a slower rate of decline over the next 30 years, and no accelerating blowouts, account for everything listed here.  So my "knows just enough to be dramatically wrong" analysis may be overly simplistic and overblown.  But it is also true that the expert models for ASI have consistently underestimated the rate of decline, did not predict the qualitative system change of the huge losses in MYI in the early 2000s, and did not expect that a year like 2012 was at all likely (though even 2012 may have been within the 99% confidence interval for the result distribution of various models).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 06:39:33 PM by Glen Koehler »
“What is at stake.... Everything, I would say." ~ Julienne Stroeve

Glen Koehler

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 1425
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1339 on: March 07, 2023, 06:15:19 PM »
Gero, do you have an ice volume chart for only the Arctic basin without the peripheral seas?

Posted said graph (& others) on the PIOMAS thread

GO TO.....
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,119.msg361287.html#msg361287

Gero
     Thanks Gero.  Those charts show that the current year maximun Volume relative to long-term trends is higher for the Peripheral seas than for the High Arctic.  No drama from this year's winter refreeze, but the fact the divergence from the 2010s average from the High Arctic seas is lower the divergence by the Peripheral proportions is consistent with the idea that potential for negative trends to continue/accelerate.  In other words, it shows that for this refreeze season, the High Arctic is not the reason why the Volume maximum is relatively high vs. the most recent years.  Thus the High Arctic is not acting as the main bulwark of resistance against progressive decline.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 07:10:03 PM by Glen Koehler »
“What is at stake.... Everything, I would say." ~ Julienne Stroeve

Glen Koehler

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 1425
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1340 on: March 07, 2023, 06:17:16 PM »
<snip>Water absorbs radiative heat down to a depth of several meters, while land absorbs at the very best down to a few cms. On average, 95% of global radiative heat is absorbed by the oceans, even if they only cover 70% of the globe. And this heat is transported by the ocean currents to the far ends of the earth, indluding the Arctic Ocean!

     We often refer to the current DMI air temperature vs. the 1950-2002 average it displays.  Top melt from warm air is important, but 90% of the ice is surrounded by ocean water.  Is there a regularly updated chart of Arctic ocean water temperature vs. a long-term average?
“What is at stake.... Everything, I would say." ~ Julienne Stroeve

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1341 on: March 07, 2023, 06:38:20 PM »
Walrus, why do your middle segment lines begin higher than the first segment ending and end lower than the third segment beginning? A neat trick to accentuate the trend break more than it is in reality.

No trick.  Just normal linear regression.  Typically happens when one segment has a greater slope than the other.  In actuality, the endpoints are remarkably close.

If you prefer, here is the same data using a smoothed line.  The problem with this technique is that it tends to show increasing ice at the end. 

Glen Koehler

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 1425
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1342 on: March 07, 2023, 06:48:44 PM »
     Even though Walrus refuses to join the Chicken Little club, I side with him on the charting issue.  It wasn't a nefarious climate denier trick, it's just a teeny bit of slop where the trend line extends beyond the first point of a few segments.  The visual effect is minor, does not change the slopes, and the conclusion is valid that there were statistically significant subtrends within the full 1978-2022 period.  That's not me talking, I can only say that because Tamino showed that in his remarkably clear style. 

     Alas, the Tamino Open Mind site has been dormant for months.  Sure wish he was back in action.  There's no one else like him on the web as far as I know.  If you know any skillful statisticians, please ask them to take up Tamino's mission to apply rigorous yet understandable statistical analysis to all the numerical gobbledly-gook that gets thrown around about climate change.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 10:01:49 PM by Glen Koehler »
“What is at stake.... Everything, I would say." ~ Julienne Stroeve

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4070
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1005
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1343 on: March 07, 2023, 06:54:05 PM »
If the Earth would truly be only earth, without water, it would have heated up a lot faster by now.
It is our ocean that is preventing the planet from heating up more rapidly.

I doubt that very much. The oceans are vastly more important than dry land in the context of global warming - most of the heat already accumulated in the earth system has been absorbed by the oceans, and the oceans store the heat during night and winter and distribute the heat towards the poles. Dry land can do none of these things. Without the oceans, the earth would be a hell of a lot colder than it is, and the effects of global warming would be far less.

This is not about "Atlantification" - it is about the oceans being vastly more efficient at absorbing and distributing energy (both as heat and as kinetic energy) than the atmosphere. Terra firma comes a poor third in this context.

The girdle of land surrounding the Arctic ocean is the only reason why the entire ocean freezes over during winter, and why it takes so long to melt the ice during summer. Free the ice from the land, and it will melt much faster.

The oceans carry conveyor belts of heat towards the poles, but the Arctic Ocean is protected - except only partially on the Atlantic side. The oceans are also the main source of cyclonic activity, and the cyclones tend to travel north-east over the Atlantic. It is their gateway into the Arctic. The cyclones and the ocean heat is a contionous attack that will kill the Arctic ice, not some non-existent "heat over land" effect which is both inefficient and transient.
Ok, I understand that, but in summer we have 24 hours of sunlight shining on the land in the Arctic, while in winter it's all darkness. And yes, then it's the heat that is absorbed by the oceans that keeps things warmer on our planet. So a "real" planet earth would probably be colder. My bad... But look at how hot it is getting now on the Arabian pininsula. It's slowly becoming unlivable there, and all that heat from all that land that we have on our planet gets transported to the Arctic in summer. So that heats things up more rapidly, no? While that air gets cooled down by the cold arctic ocean before it can reach the ice closer to the pole.

Isn't it correct to say that the oceans keep winters warmer, and summers cooler? We all love a cool summer ocean breeze, right?

I love your post Glen. That makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm gonna sit back now and let it all sink in... Good discussion! Learning a lot again. Thank you!  :)
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

kassy

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2064
  • Likes Given: 2004
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1344 on: March 07, 2023, 07:12:00 PM »
That is correct for sea climates but the effect diminishes inland. Compere the dutch coast with the middle of Germany over the year.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

kassy

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2064
  • Likes Given: 2004
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1345 on: March 07, 2023, 08:22:23 PM »
The graphs in themselves have limited predictive value.

Like somebody above said:
The transition will be slow until it isn't.

Can you find the increased effect of atmospheric rivers in the graphs? No, not yet. Can we tell the change in the amount of rain from the graphs? Can we tease out the effect of the increase in northern boreal wildfires? Pretty hard i guess.

All these things are on the rise just like the background temperature. In modelling the line was 1,7C and in time the 2050s. So do we have until then before we cross that? Probably not. Is 1,69 safe? Probably not but we are missing a bunch of details. How much time would 1,6 buy you, or 1,5?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Alexander555

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2503
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 185
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1346 on: March 07, 2023, 08:55:08 PM »
The only strange thing for the last 10 years was 2012. And for the rest 1996, higher as the 16 years before. That could have been the start of a new ice age. But it did'nt. I fear we are going to see a deep dive in the few years to come.

The Walrus

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 499
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1347 on: March 07, 2023, 09:45:16 PM »
The only strange thing for the last 10 years was 2012. And for the rest 1996, higher as the 16 years before. That could have been the start of a new ice age. But it did'nt. I fear we are going to see a deep dive in the few years to come.

Similar plot as before, separating 1996 and 2012 from the trendlines.  The most recent trend is very similar to the beginning trend of sea ice decline, namely a decline of about 30k sq. km. annually. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 10:13:19 PM by The Walrus »

binntho

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2239
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1348 on: March 08, 2023, 10:58:27 AM »
As Glen points out above, the maximum ice cover in the Arctic is restrained by the landmasses surrounding it. My contention is that without the land masses, the extent would never reach the level it does.

And Freegrass points to the well-known temperature levelling of the oceans - cooler summers, warmer winters. Iceland is a very good example of this oceanic effect.

When considering the future, perhaps we should start by considering what the major causes of melt are today. There are three major contributors to melt each year:

1) Insolation has been dominant in the discussion and there seems to be an established consensus that record melt will not happen without clear skies during maximum insolation.

2) Ocean heat transport is a significant factor, but hard to quantify. The lopsided shape of the winter maximum, with the ice edge being 750 km from the North Pole at the Atlantic side, but more than 2000 km on the Pacific side, is only due to oceanic heat transfer up the Atlantic and the protective barrier of land every where else. Without the oceanic effect, ice at maximum would probably reach down to northern Norway and Iceland. The ocean is also a large source of kinetic energy which can have devastating effecs.

3) Atmospheric heat transport, including precipitable water and humidity. A recent article published in this forum estimated that around 1/3 of sea ice loss during the satellite period was directly attributable to increased atmospheric water transport into the Arctic. Atmospheric heat transport happens mostly over ocean, and the cyclone conveyor belt that coincides with the Atlantic is the main source of atmospheric heat into the Arctic.

Any "hot air advection" from the surrounding land masses during the very short summer is negligible. But this is the kind of heat that many people, mostly continental dwellers, are most familiar with. Those of us who have had the (good?) fortune to be raised in Iceland or the northern and western parts of the British Isles have different experiences.

So what about the future? The peripheral seas are melting earlier and thus the amount of open water during maximum insolation is increasing. The ocean surface absorbs the heat very efficiently and can bring it to bear on the ice in many different ways, including longer wave fetch and more storminess and thus stronger winds, and of course, later refreeze and thinner ice into the next melt season. But this is probably still happening too late to have a major effect. Once significant amounts of open water appear within the Arctic Basin in late May, expect major changes to happen! I would not expect any ice floating north 85N to survive more than a month if surrounded by open ocean
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

Freegrass

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4070
  • Autodidacticism is a complicated word
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1005
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Freeform season chatter and light commentary
« Reply #1349 on: March 08, 2023, 11:10:16 AM »
Here are a couple of graphs based on PIOMAS numbers.

The first graph shows annual melt and freeze. There is not much one can deduct from this graph, except that starting in 2008 there is a very large increase in both melt and freeze, with melt reaching maximum in 2010 and 2012, freeze maximum in 2013. So some sort of phase change seems to have occurred 2008-2013 but what?

The second graph shows the difference between annual melt and freeze. A positive number means that more melted than froze in that year. The only real deduction one can make is that variation seems to be diminishing.



Thank you so much Binntho. This is great! I'll move the debate about them here.

You are right that it's not so easy to interpret this data, so I'll leave that up to the specialists here. But I do see some prove of my theory in this, that melting and freezing seems to be keeping eachother more in some kind of balance for the last 10 years. Or like you said "that variation seems to be diminishing".

In the second graph I do see though that in the years between 2000 and 2010 there was a lot more melting than freezing. I'm guessing that this must be the thinning and vanishing of the thicker MYI that we're seeing? After that loss the balance seems to be more restored again.

And that phase chance you talk about, could this be the increased mobility of younger ice? More mobility means more stacking in the center of the ice pack, right? I remember a documentary about the last trip of two guys walking to the pole, and how long it took because of all the stacked ice that they had to climb over. Or in other words; the ice isn't strong and flat anymore, but crumbled and stacked with huge leads as well. And more stacking means more volume, right?
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.