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Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #200 on: December 21, 2018, 07:54:08 PM »
SH, I find different agricultural emissions numbers ranging from 9% to 17% for the US. I think we are energy hogs with agriculture contributing less here than other parts of the world only because we fly, and drive and live in big houses with big appliances .
 From the EPA ,agriculture contributes 9% with cattle contributing one third of the total . Even if total agriculture is more like 20% I would think the one third from cattle is probably a fair assessment . I keep saying I agree that reducing meat consumption is a good idea but it is far from enough.
 I have sincere doubts about livestock utilizing 93% of arable land however. Maybe part of the discrepancy of emission figures has to do with assigning an emissions number for the farming emissions from livestock feed production.
 My biggest disagreement is with your premise that meat is low hanging fruit.  No hamburgers, no milkshakes, and abject poverty for vast swaths of middle America.  I think food prices would be a potential disincentive that far exceeds volunteerism . Subsidies cause distortions in food choices and they are intended to do so. Keeping the public fat and happy may be a contributing factor. Again I am proposing a radical shift and telling farmers they need to forego 20 billion in subsidies is radical. Keeping those middle American republican votes requires the subsidies to be maintained and Trump threw an additional 5 billion to farmers yesterday to compensate for his trade war damage. At the same time he is shutting down the government to get a similar 5 billion dollar wall number. So democrats are willing to cooperate on ag subsidies ,not on a wall.
 None of this addresses the damage that subsidized commodity dumping has on artisanal farmers in the third world . Like I said earlier it sucks for vegetable operators also.
Dump the fuel and energy subsidies
Dump the agriculture subsidies
Wait for the chaos that follows to crash the GDP and resulting in meaningful reductions in emissions.

Yes I realize the fact that I can feed myself probably affects my suggestions but more people need to take up the challenge of feeding themselves. That to me is the real low hanging fruit but it is probably necessary to load the scales in people's decision matrix. Pain and hunger are big motivators..


https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#agriculture

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #201 on: December 21, 2018, 09:03:22 PM »
Thanks again, Bruce. Interesting about cannabis, but also about vineyards. I was just trying to brush off my Latin with Cato the Elder's De Agri Cultura (~160 BC) and noted that his advise to new farmers was that of all the use you could put farms to, grape vines was his first choice. Mast orchards (glandaria ) were fifth or sixth, about the same as orchards combined with grape vines. Grain was pretty far down, too, probably because they were already getting lots of cheap grain from North Africa by then.

Anyway, I, at least, do appreciate your updates.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Archimid

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #202 on: December 22, 2018, 02:58:41 AM »
If we are going to try to get to zero emissions then we have to figure out how to produce food without burning fossil fuels.

  We know how to produce food without burning fossil fuels. If the world was powered by 100% renewables then all the infrastructure required to grow food on a massive scale would be emissions free, by definition. That reduces a very significant amount of agricultural emissions.

  The problem that remains is actually growing the food. I'm not entirely clear what is the net atmospheric CO2 change of the global average crop. If growing the world's food supply is carbon negative then we must grow more food. If growing the world's food supply is significantly Carbon positive then the problem must be examined further.

The consensus seems to be that meat is significantly carbon positive. I can see that being true. Animals are more energetic beings than plants. But there are ways to reduce animal emissions. The low hanging fruit would be to feed animals only emissions negative food. If that can be done, then the emissions from the animals will be at least partially offset.

We know how to do it. We just got to do it.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

oren

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #203 on: December 24, 2018, 07:53:47 AM »
Well said SH (the whole post). Meat is the low hanging fruit indeed.
There is one other low hanging fruit as humanity prepares (not) for the 2050 catastrophe: less and late reproduction. If all women globally would each have a maximum of only one baby, and no earlier than at the age of say 27, so many resources will be saved that can be diverted to fixing the predicament we are in and will be in by 2050. Starvation is a terrible fate I do not wish on anyone, but not being born is not a tragedy, and having only one kid is not a tragedy.
I am not optimistic of course, none of this would get done, but from a systemic point of view this is the obvious humane solutions that can make so many other partial solutions much more viable, as it buys them time and reduces their overall requirements..

Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #204 on: December 24, 2018, 10:17:41 AM »
I would like to point out that carbon neutrality, once again, is only a piece of the puzzle at this point. We know that there has been significant soil degradation, requiring more fertilizers, which in turn cause more degradation and damage to the local ecosystems. Soil viable for farming is estimated to run out (at current rate of use) by the 2050s.

Some interesting reading I found regarding climate change and soil, among other things.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5694c48bd82d5e9597570999/t/5979f38ad2b857fc87921632/1501164439392/GLO_Part_2_Ch_6.pdf
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
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Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #205 on: December 24, 2018, 10:31:31 AM »
Quote
recent evidence suggests the public is growing largely indifferent to this and other environmental problems

Excellent reading on the current crisis for amphibians. And above, the root of all our environmental and climate change related problems.


 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_amphibian_populations
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #206 on: December 26, 2018, 05:34:50 PM »
Bruce; you may be aware of this site already - but it's a good resource for sustainable grain seed, etc.

https://www.sherckseeds.com/seeds/grains/

p.s. I'd go with sorghum, millet, or upland rice. Maybe camelina as an oil crop

https://www.sherckseeds.com/seeds/special-use-garden-plants/camelina/

Good luck.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

sidd

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #207 on: December 26, 2018, 09:20:00 PM »
Re: camelina as oil crop

I have grown and crushed camelina. The seeds are tiny, smaller than canola, have to change out speeds, feeds and filters on the crusher, might take more than one pass. In my experience, canola is easier, and higher yield. Another thing i noticed was that the fraction of waste in camelina crop (non camelina seed debris) coming out of the seed cleaner was larger also, perhaps this can be alleviated with better setting on the combine.

sidd

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #208 on: December 27, 2018, 04:31:01 AM »
Vox, Thanks for the link to the seed source. Also appreciate all of Sidd's experience with farming and oil crops. Wish there was somewhere that would serve as a primer to others interested in small scale bio production and could offer up working examples. Because I approach farming from a micro scale that uses very little equipment I doubt I have much to offer most farmers but I probably could educate someone like a gardener ramping up to feed dozens. Sidd uses oil seed crops and oil presses for bio feedstock to power equipment .I let lard hogs ( they are different than meat hogs ) do what they do best ,eat and get fat. So my bio feedstock is self propelled and biologically motivated to replicate.
 Anyway extinction and all the damage currently taking place should inspire more ideas about how we can individually and collectively move forward. Counterintuitively  it has a tendency to cause people to bury their heads which is just one more tragedy . I have younger relatives who refuse to read up on the subjects that are everyday discussed here on the ASIF. They make it clear they would prefer to Not hear. For me problems are challenges looking for solutions but for others they are threats to their preferred lifestyles. This is where I am conflicted . Yes reality is profoundly sad but that is no reason to give in . I am not a wreaking ball however . I hope to make a farm that works to both feed and educate
people not yet ready to walk back their expectations . If there were multiple examples of others farmers and their working farms I think it might find an audience. Sidd and his efforts are one example , I am another. There must be many others but I couldn't point anyone to a place where our separate but similar experiences and farms can be showcased. A serious media effort isn't my forte but I suppose I need to up my game. Someone needs to search out good examples... for the living things passing.
 



 

sidd

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #209 on: December 27, 2018, 05:47:18 AM »
Re: oilseeds

Don't get me wrong. You can get oil outta corn or soy. Canola has more oil than either. But you got to localize, do you need meal or oil ? you get more meal and less oil outta soy. But that might be a plus for you.

And in the larger picture: sure running lard hogs is not as efficient in terms of oil production as crushing seed straight into oil, but thats not counting the ancillary (and large) benefits that animals on a farm contribute. No farm is complete without animals. Wendell Berry, Gene Logsdon, Michael Pollan have all pointed that out more eloquently than I can.

Re: "There must be many others"

Yes. Not as many, yet, as we would hope, and far from enuf. But they are around. I was talking to a friend i hadnt seen in a few years at a xmas party. He runs 3-4 hundred acres tillable and a bunch more wooded, came into  some unexpected money that might let him get outta corn soy rotation. Already stringing fence to put a third of it in pasture, wants to do some oil, lotsa vegetables in row covers and greenhouses. 

He is fortunate more than monetarily, he has at least one son who wants to continue farming. But farming is a risky business, and he is small enuf that he might be wiped out at a faraway banker's whim.

There are many, many farmers who hate the treadmill of debt and risk in current agricultural practice in the USA. But they are trapped, and their children have left, no one left to carry on. Selling and moving to Florida looks attractive when you are sixty, seventy and the winter and the snow and the ice gets hard to handle.

sidd

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #210 on: December 28, 2018, 05:43:41 AM »
I don't know when we will ever look this in the eye and not be driven ,well , a bit crazy.
Curtis Deutsch is one of the brightest minds I have ever had the privilege to hear in person. There are other great minds , some of them are on the forum . The rest of us try to follow along. Following along can lead I suppose to glimpses at madness. With some luck not our own but that is in the eye of the beholder.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/global-warming-today-mirrors-conditions-during-earths-largest-extinction-event-uw-study/


« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 05:49:34 AM by Bruce Steele »

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #211 on: December 28, 2018, 06:09:57 AM »
Yes, good and sobering article. Thanks, Bruce.

One question. The article says, "As temperatures climbed toward the 10-degree mark, the model’s oceans became depleted of oxygen, a trend scientists are evaluating in today’s oceans, too."

So does the heating itself cause the oxygen depletion directly? Or does acidification or some other intermediary play the crucial role?

Is it just the issue that gas passes more easily from water into the atmosphere at higher temperatures?

(ETA: Ah, I see I missed this a bit below the sentence I quoted: "But warm waters can’t contain as much dissolved oxygen, which means less was available to them.")
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #212 on: December 28, 2018, 07:58:53 AM »
Wili, A hotter ocean is less able to hold it's oxygen . Remember also that 50% of emissions go to the atmosphere , 25% into terrestrial sinks and the rest into the ocean. That ratio has been maintained even though atmospheric CO2 has increased from 280 ppm to ~410 ppm. Co2 fertilization allows extra biological production . In the ocean this production sinks to where it is bacterially reduced. This bacterial activity
( remineralization ) releases the CO2 at depth and consumes oxygen.   So the oxygen minimum areas are expanding.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #213 on: December 28, 2018, 08:24:48 AM »
Wili, A hotter ocean is less able to hold it's oxygen . Remember also that 50% of emissions go to the atmosphere , 25% into terrestrial sinks and the rest into the ocean. That ratio has been maintained even though atmospheric CO2 has increased from 280 ppm to ~410 ppm. Co2 fertilization allows extra biological production . In the ocean this production sinks to where it is bacterially reduced. This bacterial activity
( remineralization ) releases the CO2 at depth and consumes oxygen.   So the oxygen minimum areas are expanding.

Indeed, as water temperature increases, maximum dissolved oxygen decreases.  Oxygen is only incorporated at the surface (from atmosphere and/or photosynthesis).  Oxygen at depth can't ever be higher than at the surface (essentially), only lower.  Lower the oxygen content at the surface (from warmth), and animal life below dies. 

Warmth magnifies the problem more than this, because as surface waters warm, they stratify and mix less with low-oxygen water below.

Other stresses will devastate humanity, but planetary ocean hypoxia is a bell tolling for the extinction of our species.   

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #214 on: December 28, 2018, 01:59:41 PM »
Also as the oceans warm organisms use extra oxygen . Those animals that are currently living in areas with higher levels of dissolved oxygen are less able to adapt than those that currently are adapted to oxygen minimum zones .

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6419/eaat1327

bbr2314

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #215 on: December 28, 2018, 02:01:38 PM »
I highly recommend The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier). It is pertinent to many issues highlighted in this thread in an overarching way. A must-watch but not for the faint of heart.

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #216 on: December 28, 2018, 04:45:29 PM »
During the early Triassic, oxygen depleted oceans produced hydrogen sulfide which swept across land at sea level.  Oxygen depletion at elevation made mountain ranges barriers to migration.

Much like fish kills today where depths are oxygen depleted and waters near the surface are too warm, the zone of habitability narrows and in places disappears.

Early Triassic proxies show that soils were oxygen depleted and dead in places.

We, of course, will be long extinct before any of this stuff happens this time.  So no need to worry about it.       
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #217 on: December 28, 2018, 05:43:32 PM »
ASLR has posted on ocean deoxygenation today from a different source. This thread is about extinction,not necessarily our own. We are already dealing with fish kills driven by anoxia in the Calif. Current ecosystem. There is a very long lag time between when we finally hit peak emissions and when the ocean systems begin to recover.


SteveMDFP

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #218 on: December 28, 2018, 06:14:04 PM »
We, of course, will be long extinct before any of this stuff happens this time.  So no need to worry about it.       

You may well be right.  But my sense is that the human species is remarkably tenacious, and that ocean hypoxia is progressing rather quickly.  There certainly won't be many humans left as the oceans transition to a Canfield state, having died from other causes.   But an H2S-laden atmosphere might be the final nail in the coffin.

Lurk

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #219 on: December 30, 2018, 02:11:51 AM »
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Neven

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #220 on: December 31, 2018, 10:52:59 AM »
A comment from a new member:

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food........Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services........The planet is dying and gasping for last breath.........If you want to see human and other life on earth in future you have to stop production of thousands of consumer goods immediately.

"Food Searching Species" did not destroy environment in millions of years........"Food Producing Society" destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years........"Consumer Goods Producing Society" has destroyed the planet in just 100 years.

Urban jobs and professions have destroyed the planet.
The entire urban population of industrial society is criminal.
The crime goes unchecked because 50% of world population is now urban.
The crime goes unchecked because urban population is running the system.

For hundred years the urban population of industrial society has been fooling the non-urban population with figures and terminologies.......Progress, Development, Growth Rate, Economy Rate, GDP.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

Industry has destroyed forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........Industry has decimated millions of land and marine species........The farmer is not running industry........The non-farming population is running industry........Urban population is running industry........Billions of university graduates are running millions of industries and corporations that have destroyed this planet.........Billions of Scientists, Engineers, MBA's, Economists, Business and Finance Graduates are running millions of industries and corporations that have destroyed this planet.

You can never save this world without stopping urban jobs and professions.......You can never save this world without closing down the universities.

Stop Education.........Close down Universities.
Stop Urban Work..........Close down the Cities.

Industrial governments are criminal........Industrial politicians are criminal........Industrial citizens are criminal.......Urban jobs and professions are criminal.

Industrial governments are governments of urban people, by urban people, for urban people.......Urban people run corporations........Industrial governments are governments of corporations, by corporations, for corporations.

Industrial governments have destroyed farmers and tribals.......Industrial governments have destroyed forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........Industrial governments have decimated millions of land and marine species.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth......This planet was non-industrial for millions of years.......Millions of other species lived in a non-industrial world for millions of years........Man lived in forests for hundreds of thousands of years.......In agrarian society for 10,000 years......Industrial society has barely existed for hundred years.......Industrial revolution began 250 years ago but most of the world became industrialized only in the last 100 years.......This planet was non-industrial for more than 99.99% of the time life has existed on it......Hundred years of industrial activity has destroyed what was created by nature in millions of years.
.
.

You can never escape from chaos, madness and destruction once you have created extra jobs and professions.........Industrial society has done just that........Industrial society has created hundreds of extra and destructive professions for its urban population which is not producing food which was the main occupation for thousands of years before industrialization.
.
.

For millions of years there was just one main activity / occupation on earth - "Searching for Food" / "Producing Food"..........Urban population of industrial society is the anomaly that is producing consumer goods and services.

For millions of years, both adults and the offspring of millions of animal species "searched for food".

For 1 million years in hunter_gatherer society both adults and children "searched for food".

For 10,000 years in agrarian society, most of the adults and children "produced food"

In industrial society which has only existed for 100 years, urban adults are producing consumer goods and services in industries and corporations..........Their children go to schools and universities where they learn how to produce and sell consumer goods in future.
.
.

What would happen to your home if 1000 people entered and started working non-stop, picking up all the things lying in your home, breaking them up to produce new things out of them?

Your home will get ruined in one day.

This is exactly what has happened to the planet in the last 100 years.......Billions of urban people worked non-stop in millions of industries and corporations producing thousands of consumer goods which has led to the destruction of forests, rivers, oceans and atmosphere........It has led to the decimation of millions of land and marine species.
.
.

This planet is very small........Just 40,000 km in circumference.

Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Forest man destroyed environment only for food.

Agrarian man destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter PLUS thousands of consumer goods and services.

Industrial man has destroyed Exponential Extra Environment.

EXPONENTIAL EXTRA ENVIRONMENT.

It is the urban population of industrial society that has destroyed exponential extra environment.

The collective work of human society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.........Millions of other species only get food from earth.

Millions of other species have already been decimated by industrial activity.......More than 99% of collapse has already happened......Man is next on the list.......Human collapse will come with lightning speed now.
..
http://www.envirolink.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2915
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #221 on: December 31, 2018, 05:06:26 PM »
I take issue with the comment on education.  Since the 1970's, Education has been systematically destroyed.  First was the attack on general distribution, the destruction of a Liberal Arts education, which impaired critical thinking.  Then the emphasis on trade schools, preparing cogs for the machine, rather than thinking individuals.

Financial aid, primarily grants and low interest education loans were targeted and defunded to prevent the general population from being able to get an adequate education.   

It is the lack of critical thinking, and the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff, that has dumbed down the population.

The 1960's and early 70's gave TPTB a glimpse of what having an educated and thinking general population would mean, and they immediately reversed course.

They have demonstrated that they can fill necessary roles (for the corporations) without actually educating the cogs.  All they need from them is the specialized knowledge, not actual thinking individuals.

Not that it really matters.  We were already too far down the road before we even discovered there was a problem.  A problem that has been barreling down on us for thousands of years.

Forcing everyone to go Luddite won't fix anything.  It's too late.

             
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Tim

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #222 on: January 01, 2019, 01:36:22 AM »
I'd argue this point, not that it isn't a moot point to be arguing it ...

Quote
"Food Producing Society" destroyed very little environment in 10,000 years...

Actually, the anthropological footprint of the totalitarian agriculturists did begin doing exactly that 10,000 years ago, and we've only been able to see that footprint in the past hundred years or so due to the work of anthropology. It was based on wiping out it's ecological environment as it destroyed everything that wasn't it's own food, or the food of it's own food, overpopulating itself through this overproduction 'growth' attitude, until it would need to expand into new frontiers, where it would then repeated the process over again ... and again, and again, and again ... until today, when it ran out of more earth to expand into. That's the footprint we see in the record.

That's the pattern we see of civilization as it spread. It was just smaller back then and could move onto new territory was all, which is not possible anymore, it has hit the wall, no more earth 2.0 to plunder.

So it's a minor point to contest, and moot as I say, but that's when the problem started, that's when the fuse was lit. Wipe out the environment where it was, overpopulating itself with the overproduction, then just take more fresh area ... that's the pattern we see, ever since 10,000 years ago. There's my irrelevant input. Civilization produced crap living since long before a few hundred years ago. It just had become massive in scale by then, which is why things really began to accelerate. But the destructive behavior actually began 10,000 years ago with the totalitarian agriculturalists. The footprint is there if you look at the history and pattern of the expansion.
Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

TerryM

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #223 on: January 01, 2019, 05:13:45 AM »
Tim
I see that the appropriately named one closed the "Immortality" thread and I wanted to let you know that I read your recommended "Ishmael" this afternoon.
I found it a bit on the pedantic side, and might argue with the gorilla's take on the known history of the ANE, but I didn't feel that my time had been wasted.
He seemed on firmer footing (pawing?) when exploring the interactions between migrant bands/tribes and sedentary civilizations than when excogitating meaningful messages from Genesis.


I'll follow your suggestion and read the followup, but not at this time.


Are you familiar with "The Razor's Edge", or perhaps "The Giles Goat Boy"?
Two very different reads that may each be seen as probing the Zen imploration to kill the true Buddha if you should meet him on the road.


Perhaps either could act as a fitting response to Ishmael's rather heavy handed harangue?


Have a great 2019
Terry


Tim

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #224 on: January 01, 2019, 08:09:22 AM »
@Terry

I'm glad you checked out Ishmael, and I'm also glad you didn't feel your time was wasted.

I actually thought his take on the Adam and Eve story was brilliant. Civilization removing itself from nature through the taking on of fear based thinking, which was also demonstrated through the "yam" story, how the indigenous person just didn't "anticipate" not having enough, while the civilized thinker began to panic over what might and might not come to pass, ushering in the whole concept of judgement based thinking. Then you start enacting those stories. Then they come true. Oops. I thought it was a reasonable take on ejecting oneself from the garden of plenty and turning into an aberrant control freak removed from natural selection. Ha!

But maybe it's some of the other work I've done with an indigenous medicine man that made that perspective jump out at me in Quinn's writing. Things read can have different impressions on different minds after all, but thanks for taking the time to read it. I thought it was an uncommon perspective. I didn't even find it heavy handed my own self, just to the point.

I haven't come across those other works you mention, but I'll look around for them and see if they present themselves. I hope you're not just trying to turn me onto the eastern civilized philosophies though (grin) ... because I spent years immersed in those concepts already, once upon a time. Like Quinn noticed, and before I even ever read Quinn, I deciding they were actually from the same worldview as the western ones (because they're both, in actuality, the same culture going all the way back ... the same mental organization emerging out of both corners of the same civilization, east and west.) But, I'll keep an eye out for them and see what they're about if they come my way.

Sure, read "B" if you like, but remember, he removed the 'lectures' to the end, so they can be read separately from the fiction story. As I mentioned in the closed thread, the "Boiling the Frog" run through at the end is particularly interesting from an anthropological perspective. Maybe it was there where he points out the common origins of the western and eastern versions of the same civilized mind. It's a little different from the Ishmael story, he doesn't delve into Genesis, for example. So, good luck, if it interests you to read it. Quinn isn't everything, obviously. No one work ever would be, right?

And ya ... the closed thread. Well, you guys all wanted it gone, hey? So, there you go, gone ... presto.  :o

Cheers Terry. Happy another day rolling over to the next. (I don't really do the cultural entrainment celebrations my own self, I don't even wear a watch actually. But do have a great tomorrow when you wake up again, how's that?)

Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

Lurk

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #225 on: January 09, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »
Why it’s time to think about human extinction | Dr David Suzuki | 1 hour interview
Published on 16 Dec 2018

After listening to this ep with Dr David Suzuki, you’ll never be the same again. The environmentalist, activist, professor of genetics and science broadcaster hits us with some home truths about what our future will look like if we continue to live the way we have been. What will life be like for our children and grandchildren? Can the damage we’ve done to the planet be reversed? Is extinction of the human race imminent?

We talk about population control, the importance of renewable energy and discuss what we can do right now in our own lives that can actually make a difference. This is for anyone who cares about the future of mankind.

Jump to Timestamps in See More section
20:06 Why humanity has only got 1 minute left to live
25:25 Humans are the only species that don't care about their own children
29:17 Educate yourself on politics or don't complain about the government
36:26 Can we be saved from our own extinction?
59:09 A final challenge for entrepreneurs

"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. [...] A good person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty."
Mahatma Gandhi - Non-Violent Resistance

Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #226 on: January 15, 2019, 03:10:12 AM »
Quote
The International Committee for the Recovery of the Vaquita reported in 2017 that there were just 30 vaquita left...

My current sources confirmed to me that we are now talking about a dozen vaquitas left in the Sea of Cortez.

https://news.mongabay.com/2018/03/only-12-vaquita-porpoises-remain-watchdog-groups-report/


A decline of more than 50% in a span of 12 months and 98% decline since 1997. Perhaps extant to extinct by 2020?
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #227 on: January 15, 2019, 03:20:36 AM »
The River And The Wall

A film on the ecological impacts (and more) building a 1200 mile border wall will have from El Paso, Texas to the Gulf of Mexico. Coming 2019.

http://theriverandthewall.com/
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #228 on: January 18, 2019, 01:48:25 AM »
An article on the same subject ...

The Ecological Disaster that is Trump’s Border Wall: a Visual Guide
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/4/10/14471304/trump-border-wall-animals

Quote
... According to internal documents recently made public by the conservation non-profit Defenders of Wildlife through the Freedom of Information Act, US wildlife officials have been raising red flags about the new construction. They think it will further degrade habitat for wildlife, including endangered species like the ocelot and jaguarundi, and further restrict their movement.

 “The Service is concerned the levee wall in Hidalgo County could be subject to catastrophic natural flood events, leaving terrestrial wildlife trapped behind the levee wall to drown or starve,” a regional director of the Fish and Wildlife Service wrote in a 2017 letter to a branch chief of the Customs and Border Protection division of DHS. Ecotourism in the region will suffer, they warn.

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #229 on: January 18, 2019, 09:52:19 PM »
How awesome and fitting.

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

kassy

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #230 on: January 19, 2019, 05:18:30 PM »
‘A sad day’: two more B.C. mountain caribou herds now locally extinct

...

Human disturbances, including clear-cut logging, mining and oil and gas development, have given natural predators like wolves easy access to caribou whose habitat has been destroyed or fragmented right across the country, with disastrous consequences for once-robust herds.

...

Thirty of B.C.’s 54 caribou herds are at risk of local extinction, and 14 of those herds have fewer than 25 animals.

https://thenarwhal.ca/a-sad-day-two-more-b-c-mountain-caribou-herds-now-locally-extinct/


Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #231 on: January 19, 2019, 09:20:43 PM »
Quote
George, a Hawaiian tree snail—and the last known member of the species Achatinella apexfulva.
George was born in a captive breeding facility at the University of Hawaii at Mānoa in the early 2000s, and soon after, the rest of his kin died.

For over a decade, researchers searched in vain for another member of the species for George to mate with, to no avail.

..The same thing is happening to other snails on the other islands. “Stuff is just blinking out,” she laments. “This entire taxonomic group is about to fall off the face of the planet.”


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/01/george-the-lonely-snail-dies-in-hawaii-extinction/
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 04:17:52 AM by Ktb »
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #232 on: January 20, 2019, 10:17:26 AM »
Animals across the planet are being paralyzed and dying from a Vitamin B1 deficiency and researchers are stumped. Fish and birds especially seems to be affected, as worldwide seabird populations have plummeted by 70%, while fish populations are also collapsing. The cause of the deficiency is unknown

Link >> https://www.pnas.org/content/115/42/10532

Quote
“We found that thiamine deficiency is much more widespread and severe than previously thought,” Balk says. Given its scope, he suggests that a pervasive thiamine deficiency could be at least partly responsible for global wildlife population declines. Over a 60-year period up to 2010, for example, worldwide seabird populations declined by approximately 70%, and globally, species are being lost 1,000 times faster than the natural rate of extinction (9, 10). “He has seen a thiamine deficiency in several differ phyla now,” says Fitzsimons of Balk. “One wonders what is going on. It’s a larger issue than we first suspected.”

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #233 on: January 20, 2019, 02:38:49 PM »
From article...

"But researchers need not invoke a pollutant to explain thiamine deficits, says Sergio Sañudo-Wilhelmy, an environmental biogeochemist at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. Imbalances in phytoplankton and bacteria, both of which are primary producers of thiamine and other B vitamins, could account for the problem (15).

Sañudo-Wilhelmy has measured very low levels of B vitamins, including thiamine, in coastal waters around California. Other researchers have estimated similar scarcities in some areas of the open ocean (16). Warming waters due to climate change could explain the seawater vitamin scarcity, he says. Warmer temperatures speed bacterial growth, making the microbes consume more B vitamins than they produce—gobbling up the vitamins before the phytoplankton can take their share."

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #234 on: January 20, 2019, 05:24:34 PM »
Here is a open sourced paper by Sanudo- Wilhelmy
https://www.pnas.org/content/109/35/14041?ijkey=880ea6dcae7d169b03e4fb8ac431413970823346&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the paper
"Furthermore, it appears that concentrations of B vitamins are maximal in the upper mesopelagic zone. Hence, climate-driven changes in water-column stratification (34) and ocean circulation (35) could reduce vitamin input from the mesopelagic zone to the surface ocean and cause changes in bacterioplankton biogeography, respectively. This climate shift might disrupt ecosystem function via important vitamin-dependent biological processes, such as primary production and associated carbon export in the ocean."

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #235 on: January 20, 2019, 11:38:32 PM »
Here is a open sourced paper by Sanudo- Wilhelmy
https://www.pnas.org/content/109/35/14041?ijkey=880ea6dcae7d169b03e4fb8ac431413970823346&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the paper
"Furthermore, it appears that concentrations of B vitamins are maximal in the upper mesopelagic zone. Hence, climate-driven changes in water-column stratification (34) and ocean circulation (35) could reduce vitamin input from the mesopelagic zone to the surface ocean and cause changes in bacterioplankton biogeography, respectively. This climate shift might disrupt ecosystem function via important vitamin-dependent biological processes, such as primary production and associated carbon export in the ocean."

It's an interesting line of inquiry, possibly relevant beyond marine environments.  I do recall reading of Florida alligators dying from brain damage from thiamine deficiency:
Gizzard shad thiaminase activity and its effect on the thiamine status of captive American alligators Alligator mississippiensis
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Gizzard-shad-thiaminase-activity-and-its-effect-on-Ross-Honeyfield/d1ef1e01088de1fc6dbf6c3b7eb2549e5af39b05

Now that problem seems to have been mostly from dietary consumption of thiaminase, which breaks down thiamine.
Still, I wonder if something like that could be a factor in global insect and bird declines.  I note that insects have a dietary requirement for thiamine.  In some cases, their gut bacteria produce thiamine:
Vitamin supplementation by gut symbionts ensures metabolic homeostasis in an insect host
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213650/

Possibly antibiotics widely used in livestock might persist in the environment long enough to affect insect gut flora, and thus lead to thiamine deficiency.

I wonder if insects in areas with a marked decline (most of the world, it seems) might be shown to have low stores of thiamine, or other essential nutrients.  Shouldn't be too hard to get an initial indication.  Dump a measured mass of some species of bug into a blender, then measure concentration of essential nutrients.  Biggest problem might be finding a control group where insect levels *haven't* declined.

Then the challenge would be figuring out how to get honey bees to swallow vitamin pills.   ;-)

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #236 on: January 24, 2019, 11:57:02 AM »
Since 'extinction' and 'abyss' strike me as similar, I thought I'd put this here. We so often get wrapped up in technical issues, whether about ice or cars or politics. This paragraph, to me, sums up the deeper and even more urgent need to re-examine our priorities:

Quote
We’re told, often enough, that as a species we are poised on the edge of the abyss. It’s possible that our puffed-up, prideful intelligence has outstripped our instinct for survival and the road back to safety has already been washed away. In which case there’s nothing much to be done. If there is something to be done, then one thing is for sure: those who created the problem will not be the ones who come up with a solution. Encrypting our emails will help, but not very much. Recalibrating our understanding of what love means, what happiness means – and, yes, what countries mean – might. Recalibrating our priorities might.

An old-growth forest, a mountain range or a river valley is more important and certainly more lovable than any country will ever be. I could weep for a river valley, and I have. But for a country? Oh, man, I don’t know…

Roy and Cusack.  "Things that can and cannot be said"

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/28/conversation-edward-snowden-arundhati-roy-john-cusack-interview
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

kassy

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #237 on: January 25, 2019, 09:55:10 AM »
Tiny killer threatens giant clam, aquatic emblem of the Med

...

French marine biologist Nardo Vicente, of the Paul Ricard Institute of Oceanography, has monitored a field of noble pen shells off the coast of Corsica since the early nineties.

Nestled on the seabed between 26 and 40 metres underwater, the clams are around 30 years old and have grown to around 80 cm.
"In 2017 the field was in perfect health," he said.
"This year, everything was dead, absolutely a hundred percent!"

Tiny assassin

The parasite, found in the digestive systems of several of the dead noble pen shells, is from the haplosporidium genus, blamed in the United States for the mass die-off of oysters in Delaware Bay in the 1950s.

It is not yet clear what brought the tiny killer to the Mediterranean or how it is spreading so fast, although it could have arrived on the hulls of merchant ships.

But the disease appears to thrive in warming waters.

Vicente said global warming was acting to stimulate "a bunch of germs, viruses and parasites" that had lain dormant but "act fully with the rise in temperature".

The waters around the Corsican field he monitored were 20 degrees C even at 40 metres, when normally they would be 13 or 14 degrees C.

"It's completely abnormal," he said.

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-tiny-killer-threatens-giant-clam.html

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #238 on: January 29, 2019, 12:55:10 AM »
Kassy, I spent most of my life as a fisherman. The disease issues with the pen shells are IMO directly related to stress caused by the extraordinary heat they are being exposed to. I watched seven species of abalone suffer very large dieoffs starting in the 82-83 and 97-98 El Niño events due to a rickettsial infection. Purple urchins also experienced dieoffs during those two El Niño events and those dieoffs have expanded to Red Sea urchin populations in the 2015-16 El Niño. Heat is the stressor and disease is the opportunistic kill mechanism. Starfish are another example.
 I believe the oyster problems on the US east coast are also being driven by heat stress. Lobster populations are also susceptible to disease in hot water and their east coast populations have moved north as a result. 

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #239 on: January 31, 2019, 06:08:45 PM »
Here is an article on some the issues of disease associated with increased ocean heat. The dieoff of starfish that started during the "blob" of 2013 has resulted in a population bloom of purple sea urchins.
The sea urchins have overgrazed the kelp beds resulting in starvation of herbivores like abalone. The abalone fisheries have closed as a result. Disease events for abalone in Southern Calif. started in the 82-83 El Niño and the commercial fishery closed there a couple decades ago. Red abalone have recovered in Southern Calif. and the starfish dieoff hasn't resulted in as large a problem for kelp beds there because there are several other predators for urchins in Southern Calif. compared to Northern Calif. also purple urchins suffer dieoffs 25C and those temperatures aren't reached in Northern Calif. but they are in the south. There are numerous other herbivores in the nearshore reef habitats that are also in steep decline but we don't see numbers on them because to a large degree nobody is keeping track.

https://tech2.org/this-is-shocking-an-underwater-pest-is-destroying-a-key-oceanic-species-science/

TerryM

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #240 on: January 31, 2019, 07:16:52 PM »
Bruce
In recent years, at least here in Canada the price of lobster has crashed. I assume this is due to large commercial hauls.


Is this a localized phenomena?


Are warm waters helping the lobsters by killing their predators, or do lobsters simply prefer the new warmer temperatures?


Probably totally unrelated, but the last time I was at Bras d'Ore in Nova Scotia it looked like jelly fish soup. Is this also the result of warmer water? Is there any way to end this kind of infestation?


Bras d'Ore is one of the most beautiful places on earth, but I wouldn't stick a toe in the water while wearing a wet suit.


Thanks
Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #241 on: January 31, 2019, 09:11:58 PM »
Terry, The crash in cod is one factor resulting in a relaxation of predatory pressure on lobster. The Atlantic lobsters however have had population declines in the southern end of their range due to hot water and an associated shell disease. Another example of water temperatures associated with disease. I believe the change in water temperatures are forcing the lobster populations north.
 In reading the full paper on the starfish disease it appears the same densovirus killing West Coast starfish is also killing starfish on the East Coast of North America. Not all starfish are equally susceptible and I don't know if starfish are a primary urchin predator on the East Coast but if they are kelp may be threatened there as well. Shipping live seafood around the world and keeping them in seawater tanks that circulate ocean waters is a recipe for more problems .
 Although I have read about blooms in jellyfish around the world we haven't experienced large increases in jellies here in Southern Calif.  I don't know what drives various jellyfish population blooms.

For those interested here is the full paper on the starfish dieoff.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5700558/SeaStars-ScienceAdvancesJan302019.pdf

TerryM

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #242 on: February 01, 2019, 03:28:47 AM »
Jeez!


"Diseased sea stars develop progressively worse dermal lesions , arms detach from the central disc, and gonads spill from fully reproductive stars and individuals die, often leaving white piles of ossicles and disconnected limbs"

I'm eternally grateful for not being susceptible to this particular disease!
.......


Strange that they're tracking temperature anomalies rather than absolute temperatures. I would have thought that the delta between Alaskan waters and S.California water would exceed the difference in anomalies at either location.


You mention jellyfish blooms, does this indicate that they typically go through boom/bust cycles, that the masses I encountered might in a short time die off?
Terry

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #243 on: February 01, 2019, 05:01:32 AM »
Terry, I am no expert on the life cycle of jellyfish. When I refer to jellyfish blooms that is because where I spent the forty years of my fishing career they always showed up during the spring upwelling season when nutrients are at their maximum. Cnidarians have a complex lifecycle with a hydra stage that is connected to the bottom, it asexually produces polyps that then become free swimming jellyfish that sexually reproduce. After the sexual process is completed the jellies expire. So yes the jellies you saw may have completed their lifecycle, or maybe the wind drove them onshore. By early summer most of the jellyfish are gone but some species live several months around here. This is a generalization but there are undoubtably exemptions I wasn't paying attention to. What happens to jellyfish is an example of a life form that we just don't pay enough attention to to recognize population crashes that climate change might precipitate. 
 Many of the jellies in the spring bloom were very small and being in the bloom was kinda like swimming in a soup of them. I had to change my focus to that which was only inches in front of my eyes to see them , many were very beautiful with spinning rainbow colors along their sides. Some swam like little butterflies ,others pulsed like the larger jellies, and others were cylindrical and rotated with cilia . Paying too much attention to all the various life forms that surrounded you resulted in bottom time that wasn't producing sea urchins so you tend to focus on what was paying the bills but there was enough time swimming back to the boat or decompressing to take in the show on occasion .

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 05:15:49 AM by Bruce Steele »

Bruce Steele

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #244 on: February 01, 2019, 06:24:19 AM »
Chris Martenson usually charges for his posts but here is a sobering one that is free for the reading.
You might want to take a strong drink first. Collapse is upon us

https://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/114741/collapse-already-here?utm_campaign=weekly_newsletter_373&utm_source=newsletter_2019-01-26&utm_medium=email_newsletter&utm_content=node_link_114741

Rodius

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #245 on: February 01, 2019, 12:24:09 PM »
The Chris Martenson article mentions the fish die off in NSW, Australia, which was very bad.
Sadly, another one happened this week.
While the heat certainly played a part, and the Govt is pleading ignorance or attempting to say they couldnt do anything about it, that is an outright lie.

While the river is in bad shape and heat is killing everything in it, upriver a few thousand km there are super huge cotton plantations and mines that are siphoning off entire rivers. The scale is huge.
So, given the approval by Govts for the excess water usage, the heatwave and ongoing drought (that they still dont call a drought), what is happening is a combination of events and decisions that is now going to be rather difficult to fix mostly because the politicians refuse to believe it is their fault.

I wont even get started on entire towns running out of water......

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jan/29/menindee-fish-kill-nsw-water-minister-says-hes-not-downplaying-latest-deaths


Neven

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #246 on: February 01, 2019, 01:54:05 PM »
Chris Martenson, now there's a guy I learned a couple of things from, back in the day (10-12 years ago).  :)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #247 on: February 01, 2019, 11:20:01 PM »
Sulfur Dioxide has continued to increase in our atmosphere, which settles and dissolves in water as sulfidic anions—specifically, sulfites and bisulfites.  Sulfites cleave thiamine at its methylene bridge, causing its destruction.

Thiamine is one of the most unstable of the B vitamins and naturally degrades rather rapidly at pH at or above 7, in the presence of sulfites.

Recent studies of thiamine degradation at ambient temperatures has shown that increasing temperatures accelerate the degradation.

The wastewaters from many of our industries contain sulfites.  Herbicides, pulp and paper, food processing (preservatives), oil recovery, mineral processing, textiles (dyes), and, surprisingly, flue gas scrubbing.  All of this runoff reaches the oceans.

One more way we are contributing to our own extinction.  Destroying an essential (cannot be synthesized by our body) vitamin in our environment, which, because it is water-soluble, is not retained by the body, and must be constantly replenished through our diet.

   

   



     

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 11:53:14 PM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2019, 03:30:40 PM »
Chris Martenson usually charges for his posts but here is a sobering one that is free for the reading.
You might want to take a strong drink first. Collapse is upon us

https://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/114741/collapse-already-here?utm_campaign=weekly_newsletter_373&utm_source=newsletter_2019-01-26&utm_medium=email_newsletter&utm_content=node_link_114741

I would just like to say that this is quite likely the most disturbing thing I have ever read. Many of the individual stories I am aware of but to have it all gathered in a single read is....

kassy

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2019, 05:03:38 PM »
I only missed this which is pretty frightening:

If you recall, we’ve also recently reported on the findings showing that phytoplankton levels are down 50% (these are a prime source for thiamine, by the way).

Thanks Cid_Yama for the additional info on this problem.