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Author Topic: The Holocene Extinction  (Read 34211 times)

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2018, 05:51:07 PM »
... It would be my great preference if they mostly culled from the top 1% ...

There's a slippery slope somewhere there ...



Maybe, just all of the enablers - accountant, lawyers, bankers, crooked politicians, talking heads, propagandists, etc.

But then your left with a species population that will exceed its resource limits in one generation. Alas.  :(

The question is: Do mosquitoes as a species have to go extinct for that?

I think mosquitoes will do OK.

Mosquitoes constitute the family Culicidae. There are 41 genera of mosquitoes, containing approximately 3,500 species. Human malaria is transmitted only by females of the genus Anopheles. Of the approximately 430 Anopheles species, while over 100 are known to be able to transmit malaria to humans only 30–40 commonly do so in nature. Mosquitoes in other genera can transmit different diseases, such as yellow fever and dengue for species in the genus Aedes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosquito_genera

The technique, called gene drive, was used to selectively target the specific mosquito species An. gambiae.  The CRISPR–Cas9 target genes they chose is specific to each species. Unless the gene was conserved across multiple species it could not be passed on to a different mosquito species.

It would also require inter-species sexual reproduction which is usually a non-starter.

Humans on the other hand ...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 07:18:04 PM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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Archimid

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2018, 05:53:22 PM »
Humans can’t make mosquitoes extinct, even if they try. We can however warm the world to point were mosquitoes proliferate.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

jacksmith4tx

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2018, 05:57:29 PM »
The question is: Do mosquitoes as a species have to go extinct for that?

Indeed, that is the most worrisome part.
About 15 years too late to be asking this question. Killing off a few species of bugs is collateral damage. This won't be last either.
https://www.seafoodsource.com/news/environment-sustainability/european-genes-found-in-wild-atlantic-salmon-cause-alarm
Quote
European genes found in wild Atlantic salmon cause alarm
Allan Lynch
September 25, 2018
A study into the wild Atlantic salmon population of Canada’s Inner Bay of Fundy is raising alarm among conservationists concerned about the impact the local aquaculture industry may be having on the species.

A newly released study that reviewed data collected over the past 15 years found a breed of hybrid salmon have taken root in the waters of the Inner Bay of Fundy.
Of course the fish harvesting industry sees this differently.

https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/new-genetic-research-shows-the-legacy-of-fish-farm-escapees/
Quote
New Genetic Research Shows the Legacy of Fish Farm Escapees
...
“Once it happens,” he adds, “there’s not much you can do.”

What we absolutely don't want to do is screw up the plankton and zooplankton populations. Protecting the base of the food web should a #1 concern to civilization but that will require a global commitment. A one world government?
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2018, 10:36:53 PM »
Mammals Cannot Evolve Fast Enough to Escape Current Extinction Crisis 
https://m.phys.org/news/2018-10-mammals-evolve-fast-current-extinction.html



Humans are exterminating animal and plant species so quickly that nature's built-in defence mechanism, evolution, cannot keep up. An Aarhus-led research team calculated that if current conservation efforts are not improved, so many mammal species will become extinct during the next five decades that nature will need 3 to 5 million years to recover.

If mammals diversify at their normal rates, it will still take them 5 to 7 million years to restore biodiversity to its level before modern humans evolved, and 3-5 million years just to reach current biodiversity levels, according to the analysis, which was published recently in PNAS.

Matt Davis el al., "Mammal diversity will take millions of years to recover from the current biodiversity crisis," PNAS (2018).
www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1804906115
____________________________

‘Hyperalarming’ study shows massive insect loss 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/science/2018/10/15/hyperalarming-study-shows-massive-insect-loss/
https://m.phys.org/news/2018-10-degrees-decimated-puerto-rico-insect.html

Insects around the world are in a crisis, according to a small but growing number of long-term studies showing dramatic declines in invertebrate populations. A new report suggests that the problem is more widespread than scientists realized. Huge numbers of bugs have been lost in a pristine national forest in Puerto Rico, the study found, and the forest’s insect-eating animals have gone missing, too.

In 2014, an international team of biologists estimated that, in the past 35 years, the abundance of invertebrates such as beetles and bees had decreased by 45 percent. In places where long-term insect data are available, mainly in Europe, insect numbers are plummeting. A study last year showed a 76 percent decrease in flying insects in the past few decades in German nature preserves.

The latest report, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that this startling loss of insect abundance extends to the Americas. The study’s authors implicate climate change in the loss of tropical invertebrates.

Between January 1977 and January 2013, the catch rate in the ground traps fell 60-fold.

The finding supports the recent United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change warnings of severe environmental threats given a 2.0 degree Celsius elevation in global temperature. Like some other tropical locations, the study area in the Luquillo rainforest has already reached or exceeded a 2.0 degree Celsius rise in average temperature, and the study finds that the consequences are potentially catastrophic.

"Our results suggest that the effects of climate warming in tropical forests may be even greater than anticipated" said Brad Lister lead author of the study and a faculty member in the Department of Biological Sciences at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. "The insect populations in the Luquillo forest are crashing, and once that begins the animals that eat the insects have insufficient food, which results in decreased reproduction and survivorship and consequent declines in abundance."

Bradford C. Lister el al., "Climate-driven declines in arthropod abundance restructure a rainforest food web," PNAS (2018). www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1722477115
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 10:52:19 PM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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Forest Dweller

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2018, 01:48:05 PM »
The Living Planet report 2018 is out:
https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/living-planet-report-2018

Some of the more striking figures:

- Populations of mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and amphibians have, on average, declined by 60% between 1970 and 2014, the most recent year with available data.

- 83% decline in rivers, lakes, estuaries.

- 89% decline in Central and South America particularly.

Considering this is just about a 44 year period since 1970, i'm sure the real percentages must be significantly higher still.
So i guess that means in South America for example more than 9 out of 10 animals are gone?
Maybe new president Bolsonaro in Brazil can destroy the rest and go for the full 100%?
Truly shocking.... :-[

Also in the news today, it seems China has lifted the ban on rhino horn and tiger products.
What a bright idea.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:54:23 PM by Forest Dweller »

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2018, 02:13:07 PM »
What is worst, when compared against prior WWF Living Planet reports, the rate of biodiversity loss is accelerating.

We don't have another 40 years
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Forest Dweller

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2018, 03:36:00 PM »
Concerning rates of extinction i believe they are also under estimated.
We don't fully know to begin with, and many species are more or less artificially kept around in minute numbers, in ridiculously small remaining parts of the original habitat by all sorts of measures, volunteers and so on.
Or even just in zoos, private collections.
The well known remark about tigers for instance is how there are more in captivity than in the wild.
If we look at a species such as Javan rhinoceros yes there are still around 50-60 in Ujong Kulong NP.
So they are not officially extinct, but their tiny safe peninsular remaining habitat is still besieged and lucky to be an easily protected geographical feature.
To all intents and purposes they are extinct apart from that.
Their relatives in Vietnam (R. S. Annamiticus) had no such luck of course and the last one was poached April 30, 2010 in spite of being the main conservation poster child inside the Cat Tien NP.
We keep a lot of those poster childs symbolically and even fail at that.

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2018, 04:38:12 PM »
Exactly; species bottlenecks and broken ecosystem connections.

And now that we've decimated the vertebrates we're starting to eyeball the invertebrates.

Cephalopods could become an important food source in the global community

Quote
Among chefs and researchers in gastronomy, there is a growing interest in exploring local waters in order to use resources in a more diverse and sustainable manner, including using the cephalopod population as a counterweight to the dwindling fishing of bonefish, as well as an interest in finding new sources of protein that can replace meat from land animals.

"We know that wild fish stocks are threatened and we are finding it difficult to establish new aquaculture because of problems with pollution. At the same time, the global cephalopod population (including squid, octopus and cuttlefish) is growing, which is why we have investigated whether there may be grounds for getting people to eat cephalopods in those parts of the world where there is no widespread tradition for it," says Professor Ole G. Mouritsen from the Department of Food Science at the University of Copenhagen (UCPH FOOD) in Denmark.

One of the reasons given against eating cephalopods : Some cephalopods are supposed to be intelligent creatures

What goes unsaid in this article is the reason the global cephalopod population is growing is because we've killed off all their predators.

What's next? Jellyfish?


Jellyfish prepared with sesame oil and chili sauce

or maybe ...

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2018, 06:11:38 PM »
What is worst, when compared against prior WWF Living Planet reports, the rate of biodiversity loss is accelerating.

We don't have another 40 years

No. Combined with the dramatic loss of insects, we are totally fucked.

oren

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2018, 10:50:59 PM »
When you fill up the planet with one species way above the carrying capacity, no wonder all the rest find themselves kicked out.

Human Habitat Index

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2018, 01:30:30 AM »
In the near future, people will stop buying 30 year bonds.

That will be the moment.......
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

DrTskoul

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2018, 03:28:06 AM »
In the near future, people will stop buying 30 year bonds.

That will be the moment.......

You mean members of the 0.1%? The 99.9% does not buy them now...nothing will change for them...

bluesky

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2018, 10:44:11 PM »
"Global pattern of nest predation is disrupted by climate change in shorebirds"
Vojtěch Kubelka et al November 2018, Science

"No longer a safe haven
Many biological patterns have a latitudinal component. One long-recognized pattern is that predation rates are higher at lower latitudes. This may explain why many migratory birds travel thousands of miles from the tropics to the poles to breed. Looking across thousands of records, Kubelka et al. found that climate change seems to have altered this fundamental pattern. In shorebirds, at least, predation rates on nests are now higher in the Arctic than in the tropics."

Abstract:
"Ongoing climate change is thought to disrupt trophic relationships, with consequences for complex interspecific interactions, yet the effects of climate change on species interactions are poorly understood, and such effects have not been documented at a global scale. Using a single database of 38,191 nests from 237 populations, we found that shorebirds have experienced a worldwide increase in nest predation over the past 70 years. Historically, there existed a latitudinal gradient in nest predation, with the highest rates in the tropics; however, this pattern has been recently reversed in the Northern Hemisphere, most notably in the Arctic. This increased nest predation is consistent with climate-induced shifts in predator-prey relationships."



bluesky

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2018, 10:49:10 PM »
"Compositional response of Amazon forests to climate change"
Adriane Esquivel‐Muelber et al
Global Change Biology November 2018

Abstract
"Most of the planet's diversity is concentrated in the tropics, which includes many regions undergoing rapid climate change. Yet, while climate‐induced biodiversity changes are widely documented elsewhere, few studies have addressed this issue for lowland tropical ecosystems. Here we investigate whether the floristic and functional composition of intact lowland Amazonian forests have been changing by evaluating records from 106 long‐term inventory plots spanning 30 years. We analyse three traits that have been hypothesized to respond to different environmental drivers (increase in moisture stress and atmospheric CO2 concentrations): maximum tree size, biogeographic water‐deficit affiliation and wood density. Tree communities have become increasingly dominated by large‐statured taxa, but to date there has been no detectable change in mean wood density or water deficit affiliation at the community level, despite most forest plots having experienced an intensification of the dry season. However, among newly recruited trees, dry‐affiliated genera have become more abundant, while the mortality of wet‐affiliated genera has increased in those plots where the dry season has intensified most. Thus, a slow shift to a more dry‐affiliated Amazonia is underway, with changes in compositional dynamics (recruits and mortality) consistent with climate‐change drivers, but yet to significantly impact whole‐community composition. The Amazon observational record suggests that the increase in atmospheric CO2 is driving a shift within tree communities to large‐statured species and that climate changes to date will impact forest composition, but long generation times of tropical trees mean that biodiversity change is lagging behind climate change. "


full article
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.14413



josh-j

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2018, 11:48:30 AM »
That extinction symbol I posted about a while ago has become a lot more visible recently thanks to the Extinction Rebellion (UK site here) which has grown rapidly over the past few weeks.

Yesterday 5 major bridges in central London were all blocked simultaneously with around 100 arrests (see my photos), and of course the wonderful Greta Thunberg in Stockholm:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1063777869053247489

Red

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2018, 11:27:20 AM »
While this beast of a model is probably one of the most ecologically realistic, global-scale networks yet built, it is still of course a gross simplification of how life interacts on the planet. That said, the structure allowed us to address the very question posed to us in the rejection letter of our first comment — how much do co-extinctions play a role in global extinction rates?
                                                             
                                                                       [snip]

The results were striking. While expected, we didn’t really think the global warming scenario would be so bad; but extinction rates including co-extinctions were up to over ten times higher than those based only on exceeding heat tolerances. In the planetary cooling trajectory, however, the median bias was ‘only’ about twice as high. This difference arose because plants tend to drop out faster in the warming trajectory, thus leading to many more extinctions up the food web from herbivores to carnivores.

https://conservationbytes.com/2018/11/25/global-warming-causes-the-worst-kind-of-extinction-domino-effect/

Ktb

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2018, 03:27:00 PM »
Quote
The world’s seabirds are being pushed to the brink of extinction by the fishing industry which is competing with them for food, a new study has warned.

Populations have dropped by up to 70 per cent since the middle of the 20th century, experts said.


https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/seabirds-decline-population-fishing-industry-pollution-climate-change-birds-puffins-a8670736.html?fbclid=IwAR24zLjsrjlVPxdgCsDYZ4KtMdkQW7kXzDqfzwacpVBAeIhkFr4JoIn95Ew
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wdmn

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2018, 12:20:22 AM »
Quote
The world’s seabirds are being pushed to the brink of extinction by the fishing industry which is competing with them for food, a new study has warned.

Populations have dropped by up to 70 per cent since the middle of the 20th century, experts said.


https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/seabirds-decline-population-fishing-industry-pollution-climate-change-birds-puffins-a8670736.html?fbclid=IwAR24zLjsrjlVPxdgCsDYZ4KtMdkQW7kXzDqfzwacpVBAeIhkFr4JoIn95Ew

Nearly half of the world's fishing fleet is comprised of Chinese vessels: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-30/china-super-trawlers-overfishing-world-oceans/10317394

Quote
The Chinese government has given $28 billion in subsidies over the last four years to its fishing fleet....

China's super trawlers are targeting the seas in North West Pacific, South America and Western Africa.

Not only are they destroying fish stocks, but they are also wiping out poorer subsistent communities...

There is little awareness of sustainability in China's public and conservationists say education campaigns are desperately needed.

Human overpopulation is an assault on every component of the earth's systems.

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2018, 07:31:38 AM »
That extinction symbol I posted about a while ago has become a lot more visible recently thanks to the Extinction Rebellion (UK site here) which has grown rapidly over the past few weeks.

Yesterday 5 major bridges in central London were all blocked simultaneously with around 100 arrests (see my photos), and of course the wonderful Greta Thunberg in Stockholm:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1063777869053247489

Of course, those people still believe something can be done to stop it, but they are waking up to what's coming at them like a freight train.

That is unfortunate.  Better they had remained oblivious until it was over, since there is nothing that can be done.  Now they have to face the end awake with all the grief they have not had the opportunity to process.

These people are demanding that those who would have remained blissfully ignorant wake up, when all it will do is subject them to grief and sorrow before the end.  These people need to get a clue that it's over and leave the blissfully ignorant alone, instead of ruining what's left of their lives.

All they are accomplishing by demanding others wake up, is accelerating the end of civilization.

Wouldn't you rather have food in the stores as long as possible? Water coming out of your tap as long as possible?

They are just accelerating the time when that will end.

Do you have a solution?  No you don't.  None of you do.  You are all just hoping that, if you can wake everybody up, somehow, someway, ... that will fix it.

Well it won't.  It will just bring an end to the deliveries of all the necessities of life to your communities that much quicker.  And how many of you are prepared for that?

 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:15:05 AM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Neven

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2018, 07:12:50 PM »
and of course the wonderful Greta Thunberg in Stockholm:

Here's an interview with her and Kevin Anderson:

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Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2018, 11:28:39 AM »
@Cid_Yama

" These people are demanding that those who would have remained blissfully ignorant wake up, when all it will do is subject them to grief and sorrow before the end.  These people need to get a clue that it's over and leave the blissfully ignorant alone, instead of ruining what's left of their lives.

All they are accomplishing by demanding others wake up, is accelerating the end of civilization."

If this holds true, then what's the purpose of this forum? I mean, it's an open frorum, so everyone can read it and therefore wake up instantly. I'm extremely happy to have woken up decades ago and therefore did not procreate and avoided to believe in endless consumption, I lived my own life away from the usual propaganda of capitalism. Other than that I've learned a lot about the political system we live in, extremely interesting things. I think the fossil fuel industry would love your comment. Sure, we all die one way or another rather quickly, but I never wanted to go ignorant into the good night. Quote:

"... blissfully ignorant..."

(War is peace, freedom is slavery), ignorance is bliss? Sounds somewhat familiar. Btw, your signature says quite the opposite:

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Reallybigbunny

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2018, 12:26:24 AM »

Bruce Steele

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Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2018, 01:13:45 AM »
There's no need to overthrow the government (Empire) as it will fall by it's very own hand.

Neven

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2018, 12:31:37 PM »
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49574/i-wanted-to-overthrow-the-government-but-all-i-brought-down-was-somebodys-wife

Haha, awesome. Had to think of Bukowski last Sunday, because there's a local singer here with the same last name, and I saw a placard, while driving through a village.
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gerontocrat

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »
I've had the odd thought a few times that this thread would be better named as The Anthropocene Extinction.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2018, 01:43:02 PM »
Nemesis,

There is a difference.  By being here, you DECIDED you wanted to know, you made a choice. 

Forcing those that did not make that choice merely disillusions those that would otherwise be about the business of keeping everything going.

Forcing others to see will not fix anything, and will be detrimental to the systems necessary to maintain the supply of necessities to keep everyone fed and warm and clothed for as long as possible.

I'm not in a hurry to trigger the collapse of all that.  It will come soon enough.     
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 01:48:05 PM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2018, 03:11:44 PM »
@Cid_Yama

You know, I tried to force these "blissfully ignorant" kind of people for decades, because I grew up in the streets, in the basement of capitalism and therefore had to suffer all that systemic "blissful ignorance" all my life. I was succesful in one single case only, I only forced my nephew to realize the facts and he woke up. I failed in all other attempts. Now I'm sick and tired, I don't try to force anyone anymore. BUT:

I got nothing to lose as I lived all my life trying to let go, no hoarding of funny money, no procreation, nothing. Therefore I can afford to be completely relaxed. But ever more people can't stay relaxed in the face of endless "blissfully ignorant" politics any longer, they got something to lose, foremost their resp their childrens future. So I got lot's of understanding for those who try to force these "blissfully ignorant", if I'd had anything to lose, I'd do exactly the same. Anyway, "blissful ignorance" will be anihilated as soon as these "blissfully ignorant" will be hit hard by some hurricane, extreme drought, flooding, water and food shortages, social unrest ect ect. And THEN chaos and anarchy will rule. "Blissful ignorance" ruled us for centuries, it's the main cause for the desaster we're in and it comes with a high price:

Extinction.

Sure, you and me, we profit from these "blissfully ignorant" for now. But it's a very double-edged profit, isn't it? Btw, I like your nickname :)

And Yama said:

" Fools dwelling in darkness, but thinking themselves wise and erudite, go round and round, by various tortuous paths, like the blind led by the blind.

The Hereafter never reveals Itself to a person devoid of discrimination, heedless and perplexed by the delusion of wealth. "This world alone exists", he thinks, "and there is no other." Again and again he comes under my sway." "

- Katha Upanishad

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2018, 04:51:53 PM »
"Katha Upanishad"

My favorite one! Opens with a little boy persistently asking his dad difficult theological questions, to the point where is dad tells him to go to hell, so he does just that, and had a nice long philosophical discussion with the king of the underworld, Yama.

(By the way, one theory is that 'Yama' is the linguistic and mythological cousin of Old Norse Ymir, the giant hermaphroditic first creature in Norse creation myth.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

vox_mundi

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2018, 06:05:41 PM »
Mountain Birds De­clin­ing in Europe; On 'Escalator to Extinction' as Planet Warms
https://phys.org/news/2018-12-mountain-birds-declining-europe.html

Quote
According to the new article, the abundance of European mountain birds has declined in line with climate change projections. The recently released study examined the population trends of 44 bird species in the 2000s in the mountain and fell regions of Fennoscandia, Great Britain, the Alps and the Iberian Peninsula. A decline was seen in 14 of the observed species, while eight of them saw significant increase.

"On average, population decline among the species studied was 7 percent over the 13-year research period, making the situation of mountain birds distinctly worse compared to, for example, European forest birds, whose numbers did not change during the same period," explains Aleksi Lehikoinen, an Academy of Finland research fellow at the Finnish Museum of Natural History Luomus (part of the University of Helsinki), who headed the study.

The situation is the direst for species that only inhabit mountain regions and are unable to live in other European environments. For these species, known as mountain specialists, the numbers dwindled by as much as 10 percent during the monitoring period.



Open Access: Aleksi Lehikoinen et al, Declining population trends of European mountain birds, Global Change Biology (2018)
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Surveys of more than 400 species of birds on a mountainside in Peru in 1985 and then in 2017 have found that populations of almost all had declined, as many as eight had disappeared completely, and nearly all had moved to higher elevations in what scientists call "an escalator to extinction."

"Once you move up as far as you can go, there's nowhere else left," said John W. Fitzpatrick, a study author and director of the Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology. "On this particular mountain, some ridgetop bird populations were literally wiped out."

Benjamin G. Freeman el al., "Climate change causes upslope shifts and mountaintop extirpations in a tropical bird community," PNAS (2018).
Quote


“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

magnamentis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2018, 11:45:45 PM »
There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

and then there are those who try to omit what they see because it's not for their own benefits and who fight everything and everyone who wants to show to more people what they see, as opposed to those who want to show to as many others as possible what they see or help them open their eyes.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2018, 12:38:25 AM »

Forcing others to see will not fix anything, and will be detrimental to the systems necessary to maintain the supply of necessities to keep everyone fed and warm and clothed for as long as possible.

I'm not in a hurry to trigger the collapse of all that.  It will come soon enough.   

I'd put it a little differently.  Truth is, when civilization goes to hell in a handbasket, there will be no shortage of folks who say:

"Why didn't the people who saw this coming warn us?"
   "We tried, we were shouted down by deniers."
"What do you mean?  The rest of us should have been informed! 
You should have shouted them down!"
   "We figured you didn't want to know, and understanding the
   approaching doom would have ruined your happiness,
   in the time you had left."
"You should have let *us* decide how to handle the knowledge."

So I see it as a matter of rights, of respect for autonomy.  Understanding the potential doom might be destructive to individual happiness, to functioning of society, but people have a right to the truth, in my view.

Still, people who decide "if it's that bad, I don't *want* to know" should also have their choice respected.  The golden mean may be in correcting all the public bullshit of the deniers, but not push the undecided too hard.

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2018, 03:01:21 AM »
@wili

My favorite Upanishad as well :) Interesting bit there about Yama and Ymir.

@Cid_Xama

Excellent quotes there. Yama resp Death teached me a lot, he visited me in my dreams when I was a little child: He appeared as a black silhouette at the doorstep, waving his arm, saying "Come to work" with a quite demanding voice. But most of the time Yama teaches through complete silence :) I trust in Yama, he is within myself, he became part of myself, he always were part of myself. In fact, Death is part of ourselves, Death is part of Life itself:



@SteveMDFP

I appreciate your comment.

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2018, 03:21:54 AM »
and then there are those who try to omit what they see because it's not for their own benefits and who fight everything and everyone who wants to show to more people what they see, as opposed to those who want to show to as many others as possible what they see or help them open their eyes.

It's not like there isn't an abundance of opportunities to know, if you want to know.  You almost have to engage in brain pretzeling, not to know.

So you can stop with the bringer of truth to those deprived of the knowledge.

Sounds like there are those more interested in vengeance, and recruiting others to that cause.

To those in that camp, without the engines of civilization, the civilization you enjoy, would never have existed.  The planet would never have been able to sustain a population greater than about a billion, and most of you would never have existed.

The acceleration of GHGs began with the advent of agriculture and water management.  We left the track of following the normal glacial cycle thousands of years ago.  The extinction will result from geological processes that started thousands of years ago.

We only recognized this after the turn of this century.  Way too late to do anything about it.

There is not a person alive today responsible. 

It's not fair, but sometimes, what is, just is.

     
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 03:29:47 AM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2018, 03:28:35 AM »
@Cid_Yama

" There is not a person alive today responsible."

I leave that to Iustitia. Anyway, nobody might be responsible, but some got a lot to lose.

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2018, 03:47:48 AM »
We ALL will lose everything.  Job one is now keeping it all going as long as possible, keeping the wolves at bay.

There will be no justice.  Only the end of civilization, and a massive die-off, when our efforts fail.

 
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2018, 03:56:39 AM »
Yama is the deity of justice, there will be death, there will be justice.

We ALL lose everything all the time (see "Blüthe und Verwesung" above), we live and die all the time, it's a zero-sum situation altogether, Sunyata. But don't try to tell that the orange man.

wdmn

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2018, 04:08:06 AM »

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2018, 10:31:21 AM »
Yama is the deity of justice, there will be death, there will be justice.

It's like you thought you woke up, but are still dreaming.

If you think a massive die-off is justice, see a therapist.  It's what happens to a species when they overshoot available resources, or, in this case, when the resources stop coming.

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 10:48:50 AM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2018, 02:16:24 PM »
@Cid_Yama

" If you think a massive die-off is justice, see a therapist."

Ouch, maybe you better read what I said more carefully as I never said shit like that. Your nickname is "Cid_Yama", you talk about Yama so you should know that Yama is the deity of justice, just like Nemesis. You should also have heard about Karma, the law of Karma/Vipaka is justice, not worldly justice in the first place, but cosmic justice.

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2018, 02:30:17 PM »
Like I said, Yama, the deity of Death is also the deity of Justice:

" Yama is the deity of justice in Hinduism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Hinduism)

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2018, 03:23:28 PM »

 

Just a note to say that I really really liked that reply. There's a lot in it. Really worth reading several times imho.

Not worth the effort to read it once.

We have at our disposal, the knowledge, the technology and the resources to avoid the worst of the catastrophe that is rapidly approaching. What we lack is the political will.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 03:40:04 PM by Shared Humanity »

josh-j

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2018, 03:56:41 PM »
Hi Cid,

I know what you're saying, but I disagree (mostly). How can we know exactly how bad things will get, or how much of a difference can be made?

Your argument works if we are 100% sure of complete and total disaster, I mean like zero humans left, scorched earth type of thing. I don't think we are in that situation (although don't get me wrong, I'm very sure that there is a hell of sorts approaching). What we know for sure is that changing nothing guarantees disaster. Trying to change things might help a bit. It might not, but it might. It won't save everybody, but it might save some.

The truth is coming whether people like it or not - to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

There's maybe a stronger argument to be made that having civilization burn out faster is better in the long run, but actually I'm not convinced by that either. Since the ideal result for me would be a new and non-destructive civilization rising out of the ashes; and the sooner the collapse, the less thought has gone into how that might happen.

Anyway, for me the main point is that we don't know exactly how any of this is going to play out. We can see something terrifying approaching, but we don't know what's on the other side.

Finally though I want to reiterate that I think I do understand your line of thinking, and certainly there's an extent to which blind optimism or hope is totally unrealistic (not that hope has to be realistic, in my view).

Wherestheice

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2018, 08:09:58 PM »
Hi Cid,

I know what you're saying, but I disagree (mostly). How can we know exactly how bad things will get, or how much of a difference can be made?

Your argument works if we are 100% sure of complete and total disaster, I mean like zero humans left, scorched earth type of thing. I don't think we are in that situation (although don't get me wrong, I'm very sure that there is a hell of sorts approaching). What we know for sure is that changing nothing guarantees disaster. Trying to change things might help a bit. It might not, but it might. It won't save everybody, but it might save some.

The truth is coming whether people like it or not - to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

There's maybe a stronger argument to be made that having civilization burn out faster is better in the long run, but actually I'm not convinced by that either. Since the ideal result for me would be a new and non-destructive civilization rising out of the ashes; and the sooner the collapse, the less thought has gone into how that might happen.

Anyway, for me the main point is that we don't know exactly how any of this is going to play out. We can see something terrifying approaching, but we don't know what's on the other side.

Finally though I want to reiterate that I think I do understand your line of thinking, and certainly there's an extent to which blind optimism or hope is totally unrealistic (not that hope has to be realistic, in my view).

The simple fact is. Humans can’t live on a dead planet. And the amount of species that will go extinct in the future and the fact that human animals will lose habitat is everything. Keeping civilization going will make matters worse.
"When the ice goes..... F***

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2018, 08:25:55 PM »
Quote
Keeping civilization going will make matters worse.

But stoping civ from going will make matters worse too. It's not like civ against Nature, civ is part of Nature, there's nothing but Nature. Btw, how do you want to end civ? There's no way to end civ, there' only some chance to change civ for better.

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2018, 08:47:58 PM »
The problem is that this is not the narrative that civ has told itself. It has placed itself always as against and other than nature. If you just say that nature = everything, then don't bother with the word nature.

But the words 'nature' and 'civilization' both have histories, histories that have very extreme consequences.

But yes, ideally we would be able to re-imagine a civilization that does not see itself as essentially the enemy of the rest of living (and much of non-living) nature. That works constantly to live within its bounds, that could truly be sustainable over the very long term. But that would be a very, very different civilization than the one we have and than the one most here seem to be imagining.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Nemesis

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2018, 08:59:48 PM »
@wili

I second everything you just said. That departure from Nature got a lot to do with christian history, materialist/physicalist science combined with modern technology and materialist economy.

Cid_Yama

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2018, 09:15:08 PM »
Quote
It's what happens to a species when they overshoot available resources, or, in this case, when the resources stop coming.

You want the truth, there it is in spades.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:30:02 PM by Cid_Yama »
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

wili

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2018, 09:15:40 PM »
Yes, those and many more.

The biggest proximate cause is the 'discovery' of fossil-death-fuels, which put all the worst propensities already inherent in pre-industrial* culture into hyperdrive. (Asterisk, because there were many elements of industrial society in place before coal and then oil and gas super-charged them.)

I have a friend who thinks we were doomed once we learned to reliably control fire. I would like to think there were some at least small scale cultures (post control of fire) that were essentially sustainable. But control of fire certainly set the stage for cultures thinking...if we can control this very power aspect of nature, maybe we can control others...

(We also may not be the only animal that has learned to use fire to our benefit, though we have tamed and domesticated it like no other, as far as I can see: )
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: The Holocene Extinction
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2018, 09:33:59 PM »
Re: " re-imagine a civilization that does not see itself as essentially the enemy of the rest of living (and much of non-living) nature"

As usual, Wendell Berry has put it well here:

"It is a sort of betrayal, then, that our version of domestication has imposed ruination, not only upon “wilderness,” as we are inclined to think, but upon the natural or given world, the basis of our economy, our health, in short our existence."

" the conventional perspective of wild and domestic will be reversed: we, the industrial consumers of the world, are the wild ones, unrestrained and out of control, self-excluded from the world’s natural homemaking and living at home."

"they falsely and impossibly consign Nature to the “wilderness areas,” forgetting that all the world is hers"

Wendell Berry is a treasure. Read the whole thing at

https://orionmagazine.org/article/wild-and-domestic/

sidd