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martalunde68

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The EU and the Arctic Council
« on: May 18, 2018, 08:49:33 AM »
In the recent years the Arctic has increasingly been called the arena of global confrontation, where the “Big Game” of 21st century takes place. Previously the Arctic zone has traditionally been considered the sphere of interests of the eight Arctic states, which territories (or at least their parts) are beyond the Arctic Circle. But now the situation has changed considerably.

The Arctic resources and opportunities attract all major international players, and the European Union is not an exception, although its separate constituent states are located, frankly speaking, far from the northern latitudes.

The European Union considers itself to be a direct participant in the Arctic policy due to the arctic status of its member-states – Denmark, Finland, and Sweden. But if to sort it out it’ll be obvious that the Arctic territory of Denmark – Greenland – is not part of the EU; Finland and Sweden do not have oceanic boarders with the Arctic and automatically drop out of the dispute over the Arctic shelf. Moreover, the term “EU Arctic policy” raises questions: the Union neither has any legal instruments for implementing full-scale initiatives, nor a clear definition of its policy in the region.

So may be Brussels bureaucrats should better deal with Brexit and leave attempts to politicize the region and use it in their own selfish ends?

Mr.Far

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 11:31:09 AM »
I agree. In addition, some member-states are already represented in the Arctic Council, and may put EU concerns into organization’s agenda. So what is double representation for then?

But on the other hand – an observer is not a full member of the Council! What to fear? 8)

Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 12:20:53 PM »
The European Union considers itself to be a direct participant in the Arctic policy due to the arctic status of its member-states – Denmark, Finland, and Sweden. But if to sort it out it’ll be obvious that the Arctic territory of Denmark – Greenland – is not part of the EU; Finland and Sweden do not have oceanic boarders with the Arctic and automatically drop out of the dispute over the Arctic shelf. Moreover, the term “EU Arctic policy” raises questions: the Union neither has any legal instruments for implementing full-scale initiatives, nor a clear definition of its policy in the region.
It's not called the Arctic Ocean Counsil.
The Saami people and Sápmi has been ignored for a very long time by our governments. Sápmi definitely borders the Arctic Ocean.
http://www.samer.se/4527
If anyone has rights to that area, it's them (like the Inuit in Greenland, Alaska and Canada).

What happens in the Arctic won't stay there, we should defend it hard instead of leaving it to the wolves.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

numerobis

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 02:45:49 PM »
What is this about?

The EU is only controversial as an observer because of the seal products ban, which destroyed a good part of the Nunavut economy. Leona Aglukkaq, MP for Nunavut at the time, was a minister and prevailed on Canada to block the EU as a punitive measure. We also can’t buy EU wines in Nunavut, as I’m sure all EU winemakers are keenly aware.

There’s not much reason to block anyone from observing, which is how eg India has observer status. Ghana doesn’t, probably only because they’ve never heard of it. The EU can always ask its member states how things are going, hardly need permission to observe.

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 03:42:24 PM »
Maybe EU will sometimes in the future become a federation of states instead of just an union, so it wouldn't be bad if it is already present in organisations where member states are active.


martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 04:01:26 PM »
It's not called the Arctic Ocean Counsil.
The Saami people and Sápmi has been ignored for a very long time by our governments. Sápmi definitely borders the Arctic Ocean.
http://www.samer.se/4527
If anyone has rights to that area, it's them (like the Inuit in Greenland, Alaska and Canada).

What happens in the Arctic won't stay there, we should defend it hard instead of leaving it to the wolves.

Exactly! The Arctic is a very sensitive region. And this is the main reson why we shouldn't  allow Brussels and its politicians to get in the Arctic and distrub its peace.

martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018, 04:06:50 PM »
What is this about?

The EU is only controversial as an observer because of the seal products ban, which destroyed a good part of the Nunavut economy. Leona Aglukkaq, MP for Nunavut at the time, was a minister and prevailed on Canada to block the EU as a punitive measure. We also can’t buy EU wines in Nunavut, as I’m sure all EU winemakers are keenly aware.

There’s not much reason to block anyone from observing, which is how eg India has observer status. Ghana doesn’t, probably only because they’ve never heard of it. The EU can always ask its member states how things are going, hardly need permission to observe.

Yes, l’ve heard about these measures! And this is yet another confirmation of the fact that, for the sake of achieving the goals in the Arctic, the EU is ready to apply all the instruments of influence!

martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 04:08:55 PM »
I agree. In addition, some member-states are already represented in the Arctic Council, and may put EU concerns into organization’s agenda. So what is double representation for then?

But on the other hand – an observer is not a full member of the Council! What to fear? 8)

It’s definitely so, but according to the Arctic Council Charter, observers do not only get the opportunity to participate in the ministerial meetings, but also can be members of working groups and bring its own initiatives in for consideration. But the steps made by the EU are sometimes half-baked and don’t fully reflect the international situation in the Arctic region. That’s why they are not always positively perceived by the states concerned. This, in turn, can lead to conflict situations.

gerontocrat

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 04:49:08 PM »
The blah blah will not stop Russia developing the Northern Sea Route and the Yamal gas fields or investtigating mining for minerals on the Arctic sea bed.
The blah blah will not stop the construction of cruise ships with ice breaking capability currently in progress.
The blah will not stop the USA trying to join in the action.

The blah blah will not stop the Arctic melting.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump

numerobis

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 04:52:52 PM »
Are you up in arms about India and China being observers? Because they aren’t just proposed, they’re actual observers, have been for a while.

I ask again: what are you on about?

martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 04:55:11 PM »
Maybe EU will sometimes in the future become a federation of states instead of just an union, so it wouldn't be bad if it is already present in organisations where member states are active.

My dear friend, i'm afraid the Union's future is a big issue today! The Europian Union stands on the brink of collapse because its core interests no longer serve the common goals of a once proud continent...

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 05:12:20 PM »
Maybe EU will sometimes in the future become a federation of states instead of just an union, so it wouldn't be bad if it is already present in organisations where member states are active.

My dear friend, i'm afraid the Union's future is a big issue today! The Europian Union stands on the brink of collapse because its core interests no longer serve the common goals of a once proud continent...

An easy answer would be : look at the USA, how proud they were and what they now are... but that's not the point. I believe that Europe has no other choice than to be united, and, what a surprise, when is goes about for example Iran; Germany, France and the Brexit UK find a common way to react.
People always complain about the burocrats in Brussels, but the issue is that governments like to transfer their responsibilities to the European Union, forgetting to say that they are the ones who decided in the council of Ministers.
In this case, I don't see why Brussels would be worse than China or India, I believe that Brussels has more ecological concerns than China and India, that Brussels is closer to the Artic than India and China, and I think it's better to have Brussels as observers than each country individually, having many European countries as observers would be an unfair way to get more seats in the working groups.

Bob Wallace

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 07:14:13 PM »
The blah blah will not stop Russia developing the Northern Sea Route and the Yamal gas fields or investtigating mining for minerals on the Arctic sea bed.
The blah blah will not stop the construction of cruise ships with ice breaking capability currently in progress.
The blah will not stop the USA trying to join in the action.

The blah blah will not stop the Arctic melting.

The blah blah won't stop oil and gas exploration and drilling in the Arctic.  But electrified transportation will.


martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 08:20:45 PM »
numerobis, etienne

The Arctic Council granted observer status to India and China and 4 more countries (Italy, Japan, South Korea and Singapore) on May 15 at the ministerial meeting in Kiruna, Sweden.
And if you are interested in my opinion - honestly I am against the fact that countries not related to the Arctic participated in the Arctic Council.
And as for the EU, besides all this, there will be even a double representation!

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 09:25:05 PM »
I agree that the list of the observers is quite surprising, at least if you think ecology. Looks more like countries interested in freight shipping or looking for natural ressources.

Etienne

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2018, 07:11:06 AM »
On this page is the list of the observers
https://www.arctic-council.org/index.php/en/about-us/arctic-council/observers

13 non artic states
13 intergovernmental and inter-parliamentary organizations
13 non governmental organization.

I wonder if hte EU would be in the fisrt or in the second category.



Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 07:36:15 AM »
It's not called the Arctic Ocean Counsil.
The Saami people and Sápmi has been ignored for a very long time by our governments. Sápmi definitely borders the Arctic Ocean.
http://www.samer.se/4527
If anyone has rights to that area, it's them (like the Inuit in Greenland, Alaska and Canada).

What happens in the Arctic won't stay there, we should defend it hard instead of leaving it to the wolves.

Exactly! The Arctic is a very sensitive region. And this is the main reson why we shouldn't  allow Brussels and its politicians to get in the Arctic and distrub its peace.
I was more thinking of wolves like Trump, Putin and Jinping. How would you stop those guys? Do you hate all politicans or just those in Brussels?
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

Alexander555

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 08:09:32 AM »
Why do you defend these politicians in Brussels ? Are they not the ones that send the same item 4 times across this planet in a ship to go look for the lowest cost ? Are they not the ones that print money day and night ? Money that is mainly used for cars and cheap holidays. Are they not the ones responsable for the strong population growth on this planet ? Without these guys this planet would have had a couple hundred years extra to solve any problem. So why do you defend them ? They print your money ?

Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 08:17:47 AM »
That's easy, I don't. I can defend some politicans, regardless of their color.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 09:48:10 AM »
Honestly, I don't like that anti system speach. Furthermore maybe we should do another topic about Europe.

To continue off topic, here in French is a good example of how "European Rule" is prepared locally.
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2018/05/16/guerre-du-camembert-qui-decide-des-appellations-d-origine_5300037_4355770.html?xtor=RSS-3208

It's about camembert with raw milk, that doesn't need to be made with raw milk anymore, as decided in Brussels, but in fact, Brussels just validate agreements that was made locally when talking about "controlled designation of origin" to give them a value in the whole EU.

The people who take decisions in Brussels are national politicians that are elected by us. If you don't like what happens in Brussels, call your National Minister, he's the one who decided with his European collegues. And do you believe that your National bank would not have printed money ?

We are always more in the concept of being with or against somebody, why can't we just disagree and live together, respecting oneanother?

Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 10:08:14 AM »
Me neither etienne, because we must try to find solutions and I'll rather go yell at those people we place in the Arctic Council here at home.

To the rest of you reading, do the same in your own countries, please.
Solutions or proposals to protect the Arctic? Please post them. I'm all ears.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2018, 11:28:54 AM »
Maybe we should do like Amnesty International and prepare a letter that could be sent to all the members and observers of the  Artic Council. There are 1398 members in the forum, even if only half of the people would write, this would make an impressive quantity of letters. If the letter is well written, maybe some NGO that are observers of the Council would also give it to their members. I don't have the knowledge to write such a letter.

Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2018, 08:39:11 AM »
Sure, why not etienne. The Amnesty letters are all individual right? Maybe a collective letter? This is the Arctic Sea Ice forum and even if there are differences among members in here, all should be able to unite over Arctic protection?

I would suggest a native English speaker to write the draft or someone who works as a translator (Neven! ;) ) and then have it open for suggestions before the final letter.

Edit; Also leave it open for everyone, who agrees with protecting the Arctic, to sign it. Who knows how many millions of signatures it could collect...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 08:47:35 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2018, 06:29:37 PM »
What should be said ? Which are the most important points ?
  • CO2 emission and climate change ?
  • Pollution from ships crossing the Artic ?
  • Pollution from natural ressources mining ?
  • Pollution from rivers entering in the Artic ?

martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2018, 06:38:55 PM »
When the Canadian Government gave permits letting oil companies use seismic blasting in Arctic water to hunt for oil, without properly consulting the community most affected by it, the people of Clyde River did not stand for it. They live closely with the wildlife around them, and rely on it as their food source. People around the world stood with them as they took their fight to the Supreme Court of Canada, and celebrated their victory over the oil industry.
Here you can read how people unite to protect the Arctic: https://www.savethearctic.org/en/

martalunde68

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2018, 09:28:29 PM »
And as for your petition - you’ve got my voice! I agree completely, only united we can help the Arctic. But may be we’ll also gather votes in support of the petition against all the observers in the Arctic Council? The Arctic states operate there legally and not a single court will support us. But the observers are the countries far from the Arctic and the only thing they need - is their personal enrichment!

TerryM

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2018, 10:08:44 PM »
When Canada handed on their chairmanship of the Arctic Council the Canadian Inuit Chair, Leona Aglukkaq proudly pointed out that she'd shot down every proposal by the Russian delegation during her watch.
This ended any hopes I'd had for the body.

Terry

etienne

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 09:13:53 AM »
And as for your petition - you’ve got my voice! I agree completely, only united we can help the Arctic. But may be we’ll also gather votes in support of the petition against all the observers in the Arctic Council? The Arctic states operate there legally and not a single court will support us. But the observers are the countries far from the Arctic and the only thing they need - is their personal enrichment!
From my experience with petitions, it's better to say what we want to preserve and what we want to be solved, than to say how we want to do it. People all agree that the Artic has to be protected, but if we propose solutions, people will discuss them instead of sending/signing the petition.
Once we have achieved a successfull petition, it's possible to pressure the organisation to ask it what it wants to do about these concerns. it's also the way Amnesty International works, it says that the human rights have to be respected and that it doesn't agree with what's happening.

Sleepy

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Re: The EU and the Arctic Council
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 09:47:32 AM »
I'm with you here etienne, both on your previous post and the last one. Keep it simple. Maybe a new thread to check the interest, not many replies here since yesterday but I think there should be more support for a joint petition on this forum?

In a hurry now, daily chores are calling...  :-\
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.