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Author Topic: Well done but it's not over.  (Read 357 times)

etienne

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Well done but it's not over.
« on: September 08, 2018, 07:36:49 AM »
For my t-shirt hobby (it's far away from a business https://schrondweiler.teemill.com/), I was looking for ideas to create a T-shirt about non violence.

I first arrived on the web site of the King Center that have an interesting glossary http://www.thekingcenter.org/glossary-nonviolence where I kept 2 key words :
  • Ahisma, which means more or less non violence (« a » for non and « hisma » for violence)
  • Satyagraha which is best defined by a quote “Satyagraha is literally holding on to Truth and it means, therefore, Truth-force. Truth is soul or spirit. It is, therefore, known as soul-force.” M. K. Gandhi

When googling both words, I followed different links and had the feeling that in Gandhi’s concept, holding on to the truth seems more important than non violence. Non violence would be to be the way to act, but holding the truth is the corner stone that is required if non violence is to be used.

About satyagraha, I found 2 interesting links,

Here are some quotes

Quote
"Gandhi believed in the scientific method of:
  • accumulation and presentation of evidence;
  • review of the logical processes employed for arriving at a conclusion;
  • joint examination of these processes and evidence;
  • replaying that tape by which one has arrived at a conclusion so that one may detect the point where divergence commenced;
  • investigating whether the refusal to see evidence and logic is the result of ego-centric attitudes and perceptions and if it is found that this is what leads to intransigence, then
    divesting oneself of ego-based considerations that have only a limited place within the unalterable paradigm of interdependence that rules humanity;
  • reassuring the “adversary” that the effort is not to deny his needs and interests, while promoting introspection in the adversary through love and the readiness to suffer (voluntary suffering).

In spite of all these efforts on one’s part, one may not be able to dissolve intransigence on the other side. Such a situation where all efforts of persuasion seem to have failed would demand Direct Action."


Quote
"Nonviolent non-cooperation and Civil Disobedience can be effective only if operational conditions are controlled to prevent the outbreak of violence, and loss of control by the leadership of a struggle. Gandhi firmly believed that two antagonistic forces could not work to supplement each other. »

I just wanted to say that it looks like we are doing a good job, that it is important to go forward. I feel that always more people are aware that things have to change. I believe that we are right, that we have to hold to it and that, walking the walk, we are somehow doing a direct action to change the game. Let's continue.

etienne

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2018, 07:40:43 AM »
I forgot to say thiis, my favorite quote on this page http://www.satyagrahafoundation.org/quotes-sources/ is this one :
Quote
“Let no one say that he is a follower of Gandhi . . . You are no followers but fellow students, fellow pilgrims, fellow seekers, fellow workers.”
M. K. Gandhi

Etienne

Neven

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2018, 03:56:15 PM »
If you like that kind of quote, you'll probably also like Jiddu Krishnamurti's talks.

I'm planning on reading more on non-violence this winter, after having read Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.

We can only change things by changing ourselves.
Compare, compare, compare

gerontocrat

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2018, 04:30:45 PM »
“Satyagraha is literally holding on to Truth and it means, therefore, Truth-force. Truth is soul or spirit. It is, therefore, known as soul-force.” M. K. Gandhi

... but holding the truth is the corner stone that is required if non violence is to be used.

Here are some quotes

Quote
"Gandhi believed in the scientific method of:
  • accumulation and presentation of evidence;
  • review of the logical processes employed for arriving at a conclusion;
  • joint examination of these processes and evidence;
  • replaying that tape by which one has arrived at a conclusion so that one may detect the point where divergence commenced;
  • investigating whether the refusal to see evidence and logic is the result of ego-centric attitudes and perceptions and if it is found that this is what leads to intransigence, then
    divesting oneself of ego-based considerations that have only a limited place within the unalterable paradigm of interdependence that rules humanity;
  • reassuring the “adversary” that the effort is not to deny his needs and interests, while promoting introspection in the adversary through love and the readiness to suffer (voluntary suffering).

In spite of all these efforts on one’s part, one may not be able to dissolve intransigence on the other side. Such a situation where all efforts of persuasion seem to have failed would demand Direct Action."

Quote
"Nonviolent non-cooperation and Civil Disobedience can be effective only if operational conditions are controlled to prevent the outbreak of violence, and loss of control by the leadership of a struggle. Gandhi firmly believed that two antagonistic forces could not work to supplement each other. »

I just wanted to say that it looks like we are doing a good job, that it is important to go forward. I feel that always more people are aware that things have to change. I believe that we are right, that we have to hold to it and that, walking the walk, we are somehow doing a direct action to change the game. Let's continue.

Gandhi was a lawyer - and a very good one. You can tell that from the way he sets it all out. Hence his demand for good, verifiable data followed by deep analysis and then iteration (= establishing additional data required, rejecting where necessary evidence already acquired, and reviewing the methodology of analysis). All this to be done as many times as necessary before  determining the necessary action required.

In today's world, where a tweet seems all that is required before taking action,  he would have made a damn good analyst, and maybe so good as to be unemployable.

He also had the gift of persuading his people to follow the path of non-violent civil disobedience even when it meant a beating and /or imprisonment at minimum, and death at worst. The worst I ever got was being black-balled by the Asian Development Bank for a while.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

etienne

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 07:46:53 PM »
If you like that kind of quote, you'll probably also like Jiddu Krishnamurti's talks.

I'm planning on reading more on non-violence this winter, after having read Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.

We can only change things by changing ourselves.
I never read anything from Krishnamurti, but already heard that it would be very good, I'll have to look for it. I  like very much Tolstoy.

Neven

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 07:59:51 PM »
There are many Krishnamurti talks on YouTube (I can recommend his conversations with physicist David Bohm). Here's one on violence:

Compare, compare, compare

HapHazard

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2018, 09:19:36 PM »
Quote
Civil Disobedience

A must-read & I hold it at a level with Walden; it had a large & direct impact on Ghandi.

etienne

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Re: Well done but it's not over.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 11:17:36 PM »
The dissolution speach is very impressive if you have been in contact with the esoterical world and the heritage of the theosophical society...
https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-dissolution-speech