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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1350 on: February 08, 2019, 02:12:02 AM »
Here's an article from a long/realist perspective discussing the recent price drop.
Tesla's Perplexing Pricing by Numbers Nerd.
Quote
Summary

Tesla reduced the prices of their cars $1,100.

It was the second price drop in the past 45 days.

Timing points to a demand issue.

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1351 on: February 08, 2019, 04:21:16 AM »
Brings new meaning to the phrase "marketing gimmicks" doesn't it?

But, honestly, what did you expect?


Honestly? Honesty, clarity and simplicity! I have very high expectations though. :)

So that and responses that actually addressed my comment and this ludicrous approach by Tesla that treats their customers like children!

Quote
It would appear that the only people who expect to get cutting edge tech with a bottom end performance car, for the cost of a cheap Japanese family saloon, made in the US; are the people who should be jumping up and down trying to get the US onto EV's....

Amazing.

Amazing alright. I know of no such people.

Besides I thought it was Teslas job to promote EV uptake in the US?  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 06:43:20 AM by Lurk »
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1352 on: February 08, 2019, 11:33:48 AM »
Totally ignoring the fact that Tesla has a new Chairman and at least one very strong new member of the board, that conclusion is probably correct.

Allowing for those facts, we can't be sure until we either see more price reductions or something is said.

One thing is clear though.  One hell a lot of the reservations were for the $35k version.  Tesla has to move towards that now as it will unlock high demand.

The Auto industry is in crisis right now, VAG/Mercedes/TATA owned JLR.  JLR has just decided to move factories to Eastern EU, which might be deemed a Brexit issue if it were not for the fact that those cars are going to be behind a tax barrier for their strongest customers....  The US and the UK.  China is their largest drop in sales due to global issues in the vehicle market.

Even in EV's there is going to be a knock on from that.  Especially EV's which are sports car class and marketed as such.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1353 on: February 08, 2019, 09:40:55 PM »
Sorry, Sig, I was being sarcastic!
...

I know! ;D  And I couldn’t help but reply with an example or two anyway. ;)
I’d just listened to the ‘Make Money with My Tesla on Turo’ podcast, and was struck how customer-focussed it was.  It’s not the first time I’ve heard of someone doing that.  Offering cleaner choices to people who can’t afford an EV is surely the Next Big Thing:

Lyft's new 'Green Mode' lets riders request an EV
Quote
Green Mode is the next step in Lyft’s Green Cities initiative. Last year, the company announced all its rides were carbon neutral through carbon offset purchases. All EV charging for Lyft will be covered by 100 percent renewable electricity.
...
Lyft is also introducing EVs to its Express Drive program. Express Drive allows drivers to rent a car for the purpose of driving for Lyft. These drivers will now be able to rent EVs, and for the time being, unlimited charging will be included in the weekly rental rate. The Express Drive EV option will start in Seattle and Atlanta before rolling out to other regions.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/06/lyft-green-mode/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1354 on: February 08, 2019, 10:17:18 PM »
This will really blow the minds of those claiming No Demand:  Tesla just dropped the price of Enhanced AutoPilot in China to… $0.

Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/7/19, 9:54 PM
Breaking:
Now all Tesla Model 3 ( PM3, LR AWD & LR RWD) in China are included Enhanced Autopilot feature with no extra charge, was 46300 RMB.
—-
- Update:  Confirmed with the Tesla sales specialist in China, Standard EAP in all Model 3 possibly only “temporarily”
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1093704500240510976
Images (in Chinese) at the link.

Why? Potentially because Hardware version 3.0 (which will allow Full Self Driving) — which was to be rolled out in Q1 2019 — which likely means the cars now being sent to China have it.  If Tesla is confident that major features of FSD will be available this year, it makes sense to reposition AutoPilot as a standard feature, to further differentiate Teslas from other cars that are beginning to advertise similar features.  It means a loss of profit in the short term, but FSD will quickly make up for it, since no other car with FSD will be available for individuals to buy, at any price, any time soon.
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Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1355 on: February 09, 2019, 03:00:05 AM »
After dipping below $300 again TSLA sticks it's nose up @ $305.22

Down 13% in 3 months despite Q4 results, despite exports to Europe, despite building a Gigafactory in China and despite the Board restructure ordered by the SEC.

What am I missing?
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1356 on: February 09, 2019, 09:55:40 AM »
Lyft's new 'Green Mode' lets riders request an EV

In the UK this would invalidate your insurance unless you specifically state that you are using the car for ride hailing.  Not even business would do as general business does not cover ride hailing.  On top of that the Lyft terms of service are contradictory.  First of all they state that you must have valid insurance for your vehicle, then they state that they have insurance to cover an accident.  As I stated at the beginning, using your car for Lyft would invalidate most UK insurance unless you already covered yourself for this kind of use. Which would make the Lyft insurance redundant.

It is an interesting idea but, I believe, will fall foul of regulators very rapidly once accidents start to happen.
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1357 on: February 09, 2019, 10:50:56 AM »
This will really blow the minds of those claiming No Demand:  Tesla just dropped the price of Enhanced AutoPilot in China to… $0.

Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/7/19, 9:54 PM
Breaking:
Now all Tesla Model 3 ( PM3, LR AWD & LR RWD) in China are included Enhanced Autopilot feature with no extra charge, was 46300 RMB.
—-
- Update:  Confirmed with the Tesla sales specialist in China, Standard EAP in all Model 3 possibly only “temporarily”
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1093704500240510976
Images (in Chinese) at the link.

Why? Potentially because Hardware version 3.0 (which will allow Full Self Driving) — which was to be rolled out in Q1 2019 — which likely means the cars now being sent to China have it.  If Tesla is confident that major features of FSD will be available this year, it makes sense to reposition AutoPilot as a standard feature, to further differentiate Teslas from other cars that are beginning to advertise similar features.  It means a loss of profit in the short term, but FSD will quickly make up for it, since no other car with FSD will be available for individuals to buy, at any price, any time soon.
This certainly smacks of not enough demand in China, and a method to increase sales without hurting short-term margin (as AP hardware is shipped in all cars anyway). I think they planned on producing a certain batch for China this quarter, and are trying to make sure all of it is ordered
There could be an alternative explanation, that they are looking to quickly log lots of AP miles in China, to accelerate AP's knowledge of the Chinese road system, but I strongly doubt that except as a maybe a secondary consideration.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1358 on: February 09, 2019, 01:46:27 PM »
Do companies reduce their prices for reasons other than demand?  You betcha!  For example: when they are about to come out with a new version of their product, with better features.  You don’t want recent customers to feel they got a bad deal, when the product is improved shortly after their purchase (often with a price increase).

Demand for Teslas can soften for many different reasons.  But demand that lowers from perhaps three times what the company can produce, to twice what they can produce, is not a crisis.  Particularly when other demand levers (leasing, FSD, $35k model) are in the works.

Will Lowering Your Prices Increase Profits?
Quote
If you have an elastic demand curve:
      When you raise prices slightly, volume goes down substantially.
      When you lower prices a slightly, volume goes up substantially.
Conversely, if your volume stays roughly the same when you increase your prices, you have an inelastic demand curve. This can be very powerful, and it typically results from having a premium brand, solid distribution, few competitors or simply being under-priced.
http://www.marketingmo.com/strategic-planning/will-lowering-your-prices-increase-profits/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1359 on: February 09, 2019, 02:22:54 PM »
Rate of charge is controlled by the charger (current and temperature constraints) as well as the car (battery management software). 

Tesla Model 3 reaches new record charge rate of 126 kW – faster on CCS than Superchargers
Quote
The first European production Tesla Model 3 stopped at a 175 kW CCS charging station and recorded a new charge rate record for the electric vehicle: 126 kW – 5 kW higher than on than on Tesla’s own Superchargers.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/08/tesla-model-3-new-record-charge-rate-125-kw-ccs/

- From the comments, 126 kW is about four times what a Bolt owner has ever seen using CCS charging. 
- Tesla Supercharger version 3.0 coming soon!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1360 on: February 09, 2019, 03:47:39 PM »
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 2/9/19, 8:50 AM
Just left Zeebrugge, now Tilburg, then Tesla HQ in Amsterdam & Oslo tonight to review service in Norway. Exciting to see thousands of Model 3’s on their way to owners in Europe!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1094232094912512000

Tesla is pumping out every car it can to Europe and China.  From the Q4 financial call:
Quote
Musk:  Well, like I said, we're thinking about demand almost 0 right now. It's really getting the product there in time and not having a ton of cars on the water and in a quarter and then for China getting cars there before there's a potential rise in tariffs.

China is the world’s largest car market. Thinking little ol’ Tesla can fulfill that pent-up demand in just a quarter or two is silly. ;)

Model 3 will start production in China later this year, and demand there unquestionably exists:
Quote
In Q4, we delivered 63,359 Model 3 vehicles to customers in North America. In January 2019, we started to produce Model 3 vehicles for Europe and China, and the car is now fully certified for sale in these markets. The market opportunity for Model 3 in Europe and China exceeds North America based on the most recent sales of mid-sized premium sedans. Model 3 was designed from the outset for a global market, and shares more than 98% of its parts in common across its regional variants
Market bar chart below.
Source: Tesla Fourth Quarter & Full Year 2018 Update

I’m thinking free Autopilot could be a sign that FSD is coming soon, as I described above — or, it could be a simple goodwill gesture to Tesla’s new host country.  I’m not terribly familiar with the cultural norms in that respect, but it makes sense even in purely economic terms, given all the financial assistance China has already given: first wholly owned manufacturing facility in China, sole bid on the giga 3 land, accelerated factory build over the holidays, and local low interest loans — just for starters.  China loves Tesla; there’s many big reasons for Tesla to love China back!

Edit: the Chinese characters in the second image below say, “Come to China to build.”
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 05:43:31 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1361 on: February 10, 2019, 04:59:17 PM »
Would you buy a new EV from this company?

Jaguar Land Rover takes $4.4B hit, writes down value of cars, plants
Quote
Jaguar Land Rover has posted a 3.4 billion pound ($4.4 billion) quarterly loss after it took a big write-down in the value of its cars and plants.

It is the third straight quarterly loss for the British automaker, which has been hit hard by U.S.-China trade tensions, low demand for diesel cars in Europe and Brexit worries. Last month JLR said it would cut about 10 percent of its 42,500-person workforce, mostly in its home market. ...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jaguar-land-rover-takes-44b-hit-writes-down-value-cars-plants

———
This (from 2016) will give you an idea of different OEM’s ICE assets soon to need writing off:
http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/different.html#incumbentsshackles
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 05:04:19 PM by Sigmetnow »
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1362 on: February 10, 2019, 06:15:37 PM »
Recognizing a hit now and switching to EVs actually increases their chances for survival.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1363 on: February 10, 2019, 09:44:19 PM »
Recognizing a hit now and switching to EVs actually increases their chances for survival.

I agree they must switch to have any hope of surviving!  However, the burden of switching means success is definitely not guaranteed.

From the Dauger analysis:
Quote
For comparison, the Germans might produce their first 200+-mile BEV in at least 2019, equivalent to Tesla’s first such BEV in 2007 (the Roadster), so therefore the Germans are at best 12 years behind. If they could catch up, they should have done so already, and gas-car makers are financially unmotivated to make long-range BEVs because it would disrupt the assets that keeps them profitable: their gas-car cash cow.

The incumbents cannot embrace long-range BEV because it would kill their gas-engine cash cow, so they must move at most slowly, providing only short-range BEVs that do not disrupt. Tesla, with no such burden in the gas-engine vertical, has the unique opportunity to disrupt any submarket it chooses.

See next post:  Audi and Porsche now admit significant difficulties with their EV transition plans.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1364 on: February 10, 2019, 09:52:29 PM »
California:
Quote
Marc Benton (@marc_benton) 2/10/19, 10:14 AM
1/2 - I went to a Fiat dealership yesterday to return our leased Fiat 500e. When I walked in, in the middle of the day, there was literally NO ONE there. No customers, no sales people, no service people and the front doors were open with high end Alfa Romeo cars in the showroom.
https://twitter.com/marc_benton/status/1094615483339304960
2/2 - I had to call them to get someone over so I could turn in my car. He said they are an appointment only showroom now, they let go all their sales people. All I could think was “wow, Tesla is disrupting the WHOLE industry...in every facet”. @Tesla @elonmusk #ElonTheDisrupter

——
Quote
Ross Gerber (@GerberKawasaki) 2/10/19, 12:11 AM
From the Germans themselves in Manager Magazine. Deep dive into the failing Audi and Porsche EV production platforms. Trying to compete with Tesla is basically impossible. $tsla
https://twitter.com/gerberkawasaki/status/1094463915667279872
Text image below.

Quote
Vladimir Grinshpun (@VGrinshpun) 2/9/19, 8:40 PM
That PPE, btw, is years behind $TSLA M3, and is scrambling to match it.
And, talking about cash burn, VW spending more than $2B to develop e-tron platform is MULTIPLES of what $TSLA spent on M3 R&D. ...
https://twitter.com/vgrinshpun/status/1094410638200324097

Tesla Model 3 cost surprised Porsche and Audi after reverse-engineering
https://electrek.co/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-cost-surprise-porsche-audi-reverse-engineering/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1365 on: February 10, 2019, 09:55:36 PM »
300 Level 2 chargers (not superchargers) installed at the port of Zeebrugge for the planned 3,000 Teslas per week deliveries.
From the comments, "ICO invested around 2.5 million euros (3 million $) at its terminal in 300 charging stations that can program eight cars in sequence. In the long term, 1,500 are planned. The cars leave 80 percent charged to the consumer".
Quote
ICO Zeebrugge, Belgium had to install 300 superchargers as part of the weekly 3000 cars Tesla contract. Charging to 80% at arrival. - teslamotors
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ap4zut/ico_zeebrugge_belgium_had_to_install_300/?st=JRZ4LZJ1&sh=b5188e84
Photo below.

How long until most parking lots look like this? ;)

——-
Tesla Model 3 = #1 Best Selling Electric Car in World, 7% of Global EV Market in 2018
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-1-best-selling-electric-car-in-world-7-of-global-ev-market/
List below.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1366 on: February 10, 2019, 10:03:34 PM »
A year ago, Jim Chanos was the great bear on Tesla, repeatedly predicting its failure, and was quoted everywhere. Now…?

Where In The World Is Jim Chanos?
Quote
In the case of Tesla, clearly, the company needed a good bit of financing for a few years to get its massive manufacturing and operations up to a significant scale and to get the Model 3 to market in high volume. With a bit of bad luck (or good luck in the case of Chanos), Tesla could have run out of money before getting to a high production level and could have then collapsed. If stumbling, even a bit of a nudge from an influential player could have forced the collapse. However, what basically happened is Tesla achieved what it set out to achieve, started mass producing the Model 3, started making profits, and got back to a healthy, strong running pace — far beyond the stumbles. That wasn’t good for Chanos’s proclamations that Tesla was approaching a flaming death. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/10/where-in-the-world-is-jim-chanos-tesla-pravduh-king/

——
The SEC is taking shortsellers to court who have lied about companies to improve the short position.  Tesla shorts next?
Quote
Bonnie Norman (@bonnienorman) 2/9/19, 10:58 PM
"After establishing his short position, the complaint (SEC) charges that Lemelson made a series of false statements to shake investor confidence in Ligand, lower its stock price, and increase the value of his position."
https://twitter.com/bonnienorman/status/1094445436096589824

Quote
Steve Jobs (@tesla_truth) 2/8/19, 8:35 AM
“The SEC’s complaint, filed in federal court in Massachusetts, alleges that Lemelson used written reports, interviews, and social media to spread untrue claims, including that Ligand was “teetering on the brink of bankruptcy”

WELL GEE WOULD YA LOOK AT THAT, THATS ILLEGAL, HUH?
https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1093865790288289794
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magnamentis

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1367 on: February 10, 2019, 11:12:09 PM »
considering that cars of that size are mostly occupied by 1-2 people and circulate with an empty trunk i find this a good idea, probably 1 5-Liter Canister can provide sufficient juice to reach the next charger and/or home base.

as long as the generator is light enough i see no huge disadvantage to load one on longer trips to be on the safe side or to deal with eventually occupied charging stations and the according waiting times etc. etc. etc.

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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1368 on: February 11, 2019, 02:23:10 AM »
Quote
For comparison, the Germans might produce their first 200+-mile BEV in at least 2019, equivalent to Tesla’s first such BEV in 2007 (the Roadster), so therefore the Germans are at best 12 years behind.
I disagree with this. The Germans are planning for 2019/20 cars that are in the category of Models S and X (though not identical), and are about 7-8 years behind. Battery tech is nowadays much advanced, which I think generally puts them about 5 years behind, not needing to be the trailblazers and to invent everything from scratch. But that is still way behind, and they are stupidly dragging their feet instead of racing ahead.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 03:35:35 PM by oren »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1369 on: February 11, 2019, 02:37:32 PM »
The author is German auto engineer Alex Voigt.  Feb 10, 2019.

To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Quote
As a German engineer, I am today more concerned than ever about the ability of our auto industry to survive and prosper.

You may remember having read the very same sentence last year. I know, I sound like a broken record, but it actually is on repeat, not broken. Today we are indeed on the record, because what we are experiencing these days is true history and will be remembered and talked about in the future. Mark this day in your calendar, mark it in your diary, because this day is the beginning of an ending and the start of a beginning.


Today, while I write this sentence, the Model 3 from Tesla, an affordable fully electric vehicle that works in the ordinary life of a human, was delivered in the thousands to waiting customers in Europe. I am not talking about just a few hundred per country or a few thousand, but a bigger picture — future annual deliveries in the hundreds of thousands in Europe alone. That has never happened before, and your kids or their kids will ask you when you are old, ugly, and everything hurts how it felt, so it’s my advice that you better remember it.

Some of the European customers have been waiting for years, some just ordered a month ago. Thousands of people who drive a German car today are waiting impatiently for their first American car (the first American car they’ve ever bought in their life). It is both a first American car and a first electric car for most of them, and both of those qualities separately have previously been very convincing reasons to make sure you do not order. Today, everything is different, the world has changed.

I live in Germany in a town of one of the 4 largest German premium automakers and can happily testify that after my article was published a few months ago, people did not burn my house down, I still have my job, and I still have my citizenship. The last time I left the country, at least, my passport was still valid. I am still a German — for now.

What I wrote in September and what I write today is intended to help accelerate the transformation of the German auto industry into a sustainable future to prosper for the next century. In that respect, I believe simply that I have a duty as a German to ring the bell once again and to help wake the German auto industry up.

I hear quite often that I am not fair to all of those popular and famous global corporations that were repeatedly declared dead decades ago but always came back to succeed and be on top in the end. They have the people, they have the facilities, they have plenty of resources, and if they really want, they will win. They did in the past what they were required to do. They have not always been the first ones, but they have been ahead of the pack in the end.

All of those claims are correct, but one important item is always overlooked here. We are not talking about cars with internal combustion engines (ICE) anymore. These are electric vehicles, and in an electric vehicle world, everything is different. Nothing from the drivetrain or engine is the same. Nothing from the software is the same. And if you look at the interior, the additional space allows you to design it completely new without the limits you had before. It feels different driving, behaving, and listening to an EV. It does not talk like a duck. It does not walk like a duck. It is no duck!

This is very important to comprehend, because to build an electric vehicle, if you have ICE tools, ICE experience, and ICE people, it is very hard. It is harder than most believe because it looks so similar from the outside — despite so much difference inside. We have seen the results from German automakers building EVs. Some of them are actually ICE vehicles with a battery and electric powertrain instead. Others are quite ugly. Some are nice to look at but fall behind in all specifications Tesla has proven possible today.

What is the status of German electric vehicles (BEVs) today?
Some extracted facts out of a long list:
   •   BMW sold 34,829 BEVs globally in 2018 (14% of Tesla and shrinking).
   •   VW sold around  33,000 BEVs in 2018 (13% of Tesla).
   •   Audi sold almost no BEVs in 2018.
   •   Mercedes-Benz sold no BEVs in 2018.
   •   Porsche sold no BEVs in 2018.
   •   BMW sales did grow 1.8% overall, but its BEV sales decreased.
   •   VW grew 0.2%, with about 0.5% of its total vehicles being BEVs.
   •   Audi shrank (3.5%), with no BEV sales.
   •   Daimler grow 2.4%, just a small number of Smart BEVs produced and sold.
This is the true and sad reality we Germans are facing today. This is the reality we are living in today. This is not acceptable. And this is just sad.


To all of those now explaining that growth rate for a still small company like Tesla is a perception trick compared to growth rate of a large producer, I would respond that comparing just the growth rate of all the automakers’ BEVs makes Tesla look even better and them worse, even if you add PHEVs and hybrids. You also could use units instead of the percent and it does not change the picture.

Besides this really sad information, all of those incumbent automakers try to influence the public opinion with what they call “electrified vehicles,” which are in fact cars with combustion engines and carbon emissions. They are able to drive a few miles on electricity and then drive on gas or diesel.


Those cars should not be called electrified vehicles at all because they have combustion engines, drive with gas or diesel, and pollute the air we are all breathing. They are very similar to every other ICE car. Those cars should not appear in electric vehicle statistics, in my opinion, because they are not electric vehicles as long as emissions are exhausted.

German automakers release blended sales numbers as if hybrids are comparable to the vehicles Tesla sells, lumping them all together under the “electrified” label and often declining to give transparency to consumers because they know they won’t look good.

BMW, with shrinking fully electric vehicle sales, claims victory in global electrified sales. VW claims 60% growth but does not give numbers for pure electrics. Audi does not give any numbers at all for electric vehicles or electrified vehicles. All of them know exactly why they don’t share more specific numbers. If they told us the truth, it would not be received well. It would be ugly. They essentially cheat consumers again with blended data as they did before with dieselgate. They did not hesitate one second to deceive customers again. ...
Much more in the article:  https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/10/to-all-german-automakers-believe-me-you-are-still-sleeping/
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:58:00 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1370 on: February 11, 2019, 04:31:29 PM »
Some companies a realizing that the upcoming band payments are easily handled with Tesla’s current cash flow.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/11/tesla-tsla-stock-jumps-wall-street-profit-model-3/

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1371 on: February 11, 2019, 04:53:40 PM »
Quote
To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Well written.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1372 on: February 11, 2019, 05:53:13 PM »
Click to embiggen.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1373 on: February 11, 2019, 10:09:39 PM »
What about the Chinese manufacturers, where more than half the EVs and PHEVs are now manufactured? The next coming Chinese wave for orange-top to complain about.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1374 on: February 11, 2019, 10:13:50 PM »
when i was a little kid american cars were way way ahead of european cars, nice, big, automatic, electric windows etc. etc. and it was THE thing to have either an american car or at least a british noble brand or PERHAPS kind of the biggest mercedes.

the same will happen again. i say this without being in disagreement or contradict that current state but the moment some of the german and other european automakers will start in ernest, others will lose significant market shares and a few years later will be overtaken on their home ground.

i hope i remember this post in a few years and link it from time to time.

furhter the major german automakers have other standards they wanted to reach before releasing a EV in big numbers to the average customer.

some of those goals they reached like for example smoothest ever intreplay of breakes and recuperation etc which cannot be seen in any manual but has to be "FELT" and experienced and other goals they did not fully achieve because some tech like battery tech developed slower than they expected which had an impact on weight and component goals as well as the waiting in this aspect was unnecessary and/or not fully successful (2-3 years)

if you drive and look at an iPace that is not from an abosulte tech giant jaguar when compared to bmw, audi and MB, it's already at least on par with tesla but it's over all the better car which you only can tell if you drive all of them which i mostly did.

i can say that i drove almost any of the current EV top models and the difference in parts is like driving a cheap chevy or a beatle as compared to one of the german top lines from any brand.

i'm talking about sounds, (not engine LOL) the entire feel of craftmanship that emits from some cars by some top brands and compare them to most american italian or french brands.

i only can recommend to drive and not only compare manuals and specs. the difference in finish, quality and ultimately innovation have been the reason why german cars are a synonym for top quality (diesel gate is a legal issue not a technological one, they are capable to abide by the law but decided not to)

and so on, you'll see, we gonna talk in 5-10 years from now.

and no, i'm not german and i don't even drive a german car after i sold my phaeton i stick to japanese hybrids and motorcycles for the time being, just to prevent any suspicion of bias ;)

 
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1375 on: February 12, 2019, 12:57:17 AM »
What about the Chinese manufacturers, where more than half the EVs and PHEVs are now manufactured? The next coming Chinese wave for orange-top to complain about.

China’s automakers are making lots of EVs, but they are generally low range or hybrids, and lesser quality than foreign automakers.  (I can’t find it at the moment, but there is a video of a Chinese EV that could barely move forward after it was stopped on a hill.)  Even traditional OEM’s like GM and Toyota make EVs for China that will not (cannot?) be sold in North America or Europe.  So I expect China EV exports to increase only slowly.  However, it is expected that competition from the new Tesla China Factory will encourage Chinese automakers to offer better and longer-range EVs.

China Is Building Too Many Electric Cars
https://insideevs.com/china-too-many-electric-cars/amp/

The cheapest Chinese electric cars are coming to the US and Europe
https://qz.com/1541380/the-cheapest-chinese-electric-cars-are-coming-to-the-us-and-europe/

Stalls, stops and breakdowns: Problems plague push for electric buses
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-electric-buses-20180520-story.html

Why Shares of Chinese Tesla Rival NIO Fell 17.4% in December
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/01/07/why-shares-of-chinese-tesla-rival-nio-inc-fell-174.aspx

Tesla’s Gigafactory 3 is encouraging China’s local EV makers to be more competitive
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-3-model-3-chinas-local-ev-revolution/


This article looks at dozens of automakers and their plans for China:
A Reuters analysis of 29 global automakers found that they are investing at least $300 billion in electric vehicles, with more than 45 percent of that earmarked for China.
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html


Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.

The Reality About Chinese Electric Cars Could Surprise You
Quote
Ninety-percent of EV companies will fail in the next few years. And it’s a good thing.
...
Don’t Fear Chinese EVs Invading the US. It’s the Other Way Around.

Feng An believes that safety and quality concerns will keep Chinese EVs from entering global markets. “Chinese don’t make the same quality of batteries like Japanese and Korean, but they are so much cheaper,” he said. Quality will come much later. First comes a rapid ramp-up of scale, as well as big reductions in cost.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 01:59:41 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1376 on: February 12, 2019, 01:20:42 AM »
Quote
To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Well written.

I was particularly struck by his admission that Tesla enters the traditional German ICE car market with two major strikes against it: one, it is an EV, and two, it is American.  Which makes the overwhelming demand for the new, unseen-in-Europe Model 3 all the more remarkable:
Quote
Thousands of people who drive a German car today are waiting impatiently for their first American car (the first American car they’ve ever bought in their life). It is both a first American car and a first electric car for most of them, and both of those qualities separately have previously been very convincing reasons to make sure you do not order. Today, everything is different, the world has changed.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1377 on: February 12, 2019, 03:07:25 AM »
Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/

The next sentence is "He later clarified that by the end of 2018, the share EVs represented by microcars had dropped to about 37 percent". i.e. his analysis is not keeping up with the fast moving reality of the Chinese market. Just like people thought that Japanese cars were crap in the 1970s.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1378 on: February 12, 2019, 08:53:02 AM »
TSLA crawls, as if using crutches, to $312/share up from $305.

Why Canaccord Genuity Sees Tesla Rising Nearly 50%

By Chris Lange   February 11, 2019 12:15 pm EST

Tesla Inc. (NASDAQ: TSLA) shares made a handy gain on Monday after an analyst came out in favor of the electric vehicle (EV) company. While analysts seem to be split down the middle on this stock, with most having either a Buy or a Sell rating, Canaccord Genuity makes a great case for a rally.

Canaccord Genuity upgraded Tesla to a Buy rating from Hold and raised its price target to $450 from $330, implying an upside of 47% from the most recent closing price of $305.80.

The brokerage firm believes the past two quarters and recent guidance for the first quarter have removed significant concerns for both production capability and profitability of the critical Model 3. As such, Canaccord Genuity sees a more stable 2019 with far fewer concerns for investors in the company.

Also the recent string of price cuts was further proof that the cost-cutting and right-sizing the company has undertaken are resulting in concrete movement toward the ultimate goal of an affordable $35,000 Model 3.
https://247wallst.com/autos/2019/02/11/why-canaccord-genuity-sees-tesla-rising-nearly-50/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+247wallst_partners+%2824%2F7+Wall+St.+-+Syndication+Partners%29

Funny, that German article called the current $65K model 3 just arrived as "affordable" too. They must be richer in Germany. ;)

T. Rowe Price a big seller of Tesla
Feb. 11, 2019 4:05 PM ET|About: Tesla, Inc. (TSLA)|By: Clark Schultz, SA News Editor

T Rowe Price Group reduced its position in Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) to 8.98M shares at the end of Q4, according to a new filing.

The fund manager held 17.4M shares at the end of Q3.

The selling by T. Rowe during the quarter reduced its ownership stake in Tesla to 5.2%.

Shares of Tesla ended the day up 2.30% to $312.84.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3431817-t-rowe-price-big-seller-tesla
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t-rowe-price-lowers-stake-in-tesla-2019-02-11

 Feb 11, 2019, 12:25 pm EST
Will Baillie Gifford’s Bet on Tesla Stock Pay Off?
Confidence in Elon Musk doesn’t necessarily translate to investor success with Tesla stock
By Josh Enomoto, InvestorPlace Contributor
http://bit.ly/2TIOYQv

I’m not breaking any new ground when I say that Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is an incredibly frustrating investment. The company’s innovative prowess has seen Tesla stock deliver massive profits for early shareholders. But its operational sloppiness and unnecessary controversies have hindered its true potential. [...]

Supposedly, though, that sentiment will change following a strong show of confidence. Iconic U.K.-based investment management firm Baillie Gifford increased its stake in TSLA stock, buying 108,931 shares in the fourth quarter. With that move, Baillie Gifford owns more than 13.2 billion (site error should be million, yes?) shares. Additionally, it became the second-largest institutional shareholder.

The move is a curious one. On one hand, the company has produced some positive earnings results that bolster management’s ambitious production goals. But on the other hand, it has a history of questionable decision-making and business practices. Arguably, this factor sparked the flight in TSLA executives and high-profile employees.

Naturally, this begs the question, why is Baillie Gifford so decisively confident in TSLA stock? Ultimately, the answer comes down to the company’s dynamic and enigmatic CEO, Elon Musk.
Baillie Gifford Bets on Musk, Not Necessarily Tesla Stock

 Yet his genius arguably convinced the investment firm to ride the choppy waters.

Last October, Baillie Gifford made waves when management announced they will inject more capital into Tesla if necessary. Tellingly, Nick Thomas, a Baillie Gifford partner, stated about Musk, “If he needs more capital we would be willing to back him.”

Note the wording. Thomas didn’t say if Tesla the company needed more capital, but rather Musk the individual. Am I reading too much into an isolated quote? Under the broader context, I doubt it. Most of the allure behind Tesla stock is directly linked to Musk. Otherwise, without the dynamic leader, Tesla is merely an automaker.


Will the Gamble Pay Off for TSLA Stock?
https://investorplace.com/2019/02/baillie-giffords-bet-tesla-stock-simg/

That's the $64 Billion dollar question.... oops no sorry the $52.78 Billion dollar question.  :)
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1379 on: February 12, 2019, 02:19:21 PM »
I am not sure the power wall is a topic on the Tesla glory / failure page but I think it should be so here is a status update on my power wall project. I have received a confirmation notice that my order has made it through the first part of the approval process. This sets my tier level for the rebates here in the PG&E area of Calif.  My installer says there may be a bit of a waiting period but from my reading of all things Tesla waiting is to be expected. Installer says it may be several months due to power wall availability.
 We did have a power outage with a storm that dropped trees and sheared off a power pole in town last week. I fired up a generator and ran some extension cords for the freezers. No big deal but it  would be if I wasn't home. Vacations aren't really an option so I am usually around anyhow. If I happened to be away it would be a mad race to get home , something I would prefer to insure agains't. The storm last week also shut down the 101 freeway so even getting home in time might get problematic in some cases. Maybe I am rationalizing but I still think the power wall project makes sense for my farm.

 

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1380 on: February 12, 2019, 03:37:05 PM »
(diesel gate is a legal issue not a technological one, they are capable to abide by the law but decided not to)

Not quite.  If you dig a LONG way through the reports, you find one very different view.  It was a statement from inside VAG that they realised, when the new Euro regulations started to bite, that they were 5  years behind their competitors on conforming with the emissions standards.  The determination was that it was not possible for VAG to catch up and be compliant without expending more money than they "wanted to spend".

I have known, for a long time, that PSA diesel engines are way ahead of their German counterparts.  Dieselgate was a problem of underinvestment at a time of critical change and financial crisis.  Instead of biting the bullet and digging deep they chose to cheat.  That is neither quality nor technology leadership.

It seems to me that they are doing something similar with EV.  Too little, too late, with a lot of marketing.  I'm sure they are relying on the fact that EU trade barriers will keep them competitive with lesser products.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1381 on: February 12, 2019, 04:22:09 PM »
Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/

The next sentence is "He later clarified that by the end of 2018, the share EVs represented by microcars had dropped to about 37 percent". i.e. his analysis is not keeping up with the fast moving reality of the Chinese market. Just like people thought that Japanese cars were crap in the 1970s.

So China is now moving to making more quality EVs.  Great!  From comments I’ve read, it’s as much because of domestic customer preferences, and government intervention, as it is due to expected future competition.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1382 on: February 12, 2019, 04:27:25 PM »
Jaw, meet floor! :o This would be an excellent way to get the good ol’ boys on board with EVs.
(And perhaps why Elon feels comfortable investing in his far-out pickup truck option for Tesla. ;) )

Scoop: GM Reportedly Working On Electric Pickup Truck With Tesla Powertrain
Quote
Remember, Chevrolet raced the Bolt to market in order to be the first US automaker offering a long-range, semi-affordable electric car. It cares about going electric, maybe.

A source somewhat close to the heart of a big new development at GM has informed CleanTechnica that GM is indeed working on an electric pickup truck, and it is based around a Tesla powertrain. As in, the majority of the guts of the truck will be made by Tesla. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/12/scoop-gm-working-on-electric-pickup-truck-with-tesla-powertrain/


Edit:
I can’t wait for the first bunch of loud, coal-rolling trucks to pull into a Supercharger station, ready to ICE some spots... only to find trucks already parked there.  Charging. :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:08:25 PM by Sigmetnow »
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1383 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:51 PM »
If true, that is a very interesting development, with lots of possibilities and implications.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1384 on: February 12, 2019, 08:56:54 PM »
Re: power outage, mad rush to get home

no neighbours who can fill in ?

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1385 on: February 13, 2019, 12:08:17 AM »
Quote
Daimler CEO Zetsche about the EQC:
"We are certain that we won't be able to satisfy the demand for 2019 and likely not for 2020."
When asked about the production capacity the journalist got a "no comment"
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1095273128190709760

Long announced, delivered late - and then hardly to buy. Anyone interested in a Mercedes EQC will probably have to be patient.
Elektro-SUV von Mercedes EQC schon vor Marktstart ausverkauft
https://amp.n-tv.de/auto/EQC-schon-vor-Marktstart-ausverkauft-article20852697.html

————
$TSLA's technology/cost advantage is shown clearly in Audi's new E-tron:
Audi E-Tron - $96,629 base price, 241 mile range, 0-60 in 5.7sec, selling at a loss
Tesla Model X - $88,000 base price, 270 mile range, 0-60 in 4.7sec, 25-30% gross margin

Audi E-Tron Now On Sale In UK: Priced From £71,490
Quote
Audi’s new all-electric e-tron SUV has gone on sale ahead of the first customer deliveries in April.
Prices start from £71,490 ($91,875) after the £3,500 Plug-in Car Grant has been applied, but the top-of-the-range Launch Edition variant comes in at £82,240. [$105k]
https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-now-on-sale-in-uk-priced-from/

———
Nothing has changed since 2012. Threatened EV competition for #Tesla still “right around the corner”
Images of broken promises at the link.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1094970184358682629.html

———
[Jaguar needs to raise $1B in 14 months to replace maturing bonds; seeks “alternative funding”]
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1095307589372514307
Text image below.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1386 on: February 13, 2019, 12:13:19 AM »
"There is a significant chance the world economy is headed for a recession in 2019, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman."
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1095035373464571905

Elon Musk:  “And we expect that exponential to continue. So, with the deliveries this year being -- even if there's a global recession, we're expecting deliveries this year to be about 50% higher than last year. And this -- it could be a lot more than that.”
Tesla (TSLA) Q4 2018 Earnings Conference Call.  Jan 30, 2019.

———
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/11/19, 11:13 AM
Tesla is stepping up its GF3 construction in Shanghai, China. On Feb 11th, media learned from ppl close to the project that $TSLA Shanghai GF3 (Phase I) has started energy conservation assessment, & several relevant departments participated in the review.
https://www.cnbeta.com/articles/tech/817047.htm  [Article in Chinese.]
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1094992938931605504
Update:  Chinese media also mentioned Tesla Shanghai Gigafactory construction will be completed this summer, 2019.
**No further info about it just the phase 1 construction of the whole project. **

———-
[When your friend tells you, “OK, you can borrow my Tesla.  Just recharge it before you return.”]
https://twitter.com/liketeslakim/status/1095116443782402048
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1387 on: February 13, 2019, 01:12:58 AM »
...
Scoop: GM Reportedly Working On Electric Pickup Truck With Tesla Powertrain
Quote
Remember, Chevrolet raced the Bolt to market in order to be the first US automaker offering a long-range, semi-affordable electric car. It cares about going electric, maybe.

A source somewhat close to the heart of a big new development at GM has informed CleanTechnica that GM is indeed working on an electric pickup truck, and it is based around a Tesla powertrain. As in, the majority of the guts of the truck will be made by Tesla. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/12/scoop-gm-working-on-electric-pickup-truck-with-tesla-powertrain/
...

Quote
Update: Tesla has denied any such partnership with GM in response to an email from CleanTechnica.
Update #2: GM declined to comment.

 ??? Secret?

But then there’s this:

GM and Amazon in talks to invest in electric pickup/SUV maker Rivian
Quote
Reuters reports that GM and Amazon are looking to invest in Rivian at a valuation of $1 – 2 billion. The investment wouldn’t be a buyout – just a minority stake. Rivian already reportedly raised over $500 million in previous rounds of funding.
The deal could be announced as soon as this month. Details beyond that are sparse but the mere prospect of these two companies investing in Rivian automatically adds some credibility to the company.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/12/rivian-gm-amazon/
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1388 on: February 13, 2019, 10:57:20 AM »
It should be obvious by now that Tesla caused a world-wide Electric Vehicle revolution, disturbing markets for EV makers in China and German ICE vehicles alike.

Meanwhile, the company keeps track of how much CO2 was saved (not emitted) by Tesla vehicle drivers :

https://www.tesla.com/carbonimpact

Almost 4 Mega-ton !

And they will likely double that next year.

I know there are many skeptical voices here about Tesla.

But name a company that saved more CO2.

And for the skeptics :

If not by de-carbonizing transportation with electric vehicles, how else do you envision that we get to a carbon-neutral world ?
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1389 on: February 13, 2019, 05:09:54 PM »
TESLA - You are doomed!!!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-12/tesla-s-latest-competitor-is-a-15-500-electric-three-wheeler
Canada's Answer to Tesla Is a $15,500 Electric Three-Wheeler
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1390 on: February 13, 2019, 11:56:19 PM »
The 4% spike on "good news" didn't last long .. TSLA back down at $306.80

However end of Jan % of Float Shorted is down half a point to 19.74% of shares. Is that good news?

Fidelity funds' manager FMR LLC tweaked higher its Tesla Inc. TSLA, -0.38% holdings to more than 9 million shares of the Silicon Valley car maker, a 5.291% stake, according to a filing Wednesday. That compares with the about 9 million shares it had in November.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fidelity-raises-its-tesla-stake-2019-02-13

For all the "good news" TSLA is still down 11.56% from 3 Months ago so 'the market' isn't buying it no matter how many are buying their cars and powerwalls. Of course that can change at any time because the 'market' is such a fickle emotion driven breast.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1391 on: February 14, 2019, 08:16:31 PM »
there is a documentation on tesla tongight 21:00 on german channel Phoenix

the titel suggests that on one hand it's common sense that tesla is ahead when it comes to
EVs but that they're more and more getting into trouble for various reasons that were discussed in this forum.

for those who are interested and can't watch (reception over astra satellite as well possible)

here is the link to online information: https://www.phoenix.de/sendungen.html

before that at 20:15 there is a discussion about diesel-gate

FYI "Phoenix" is one of the more reputable channels while there is no 100% trustworthy channel at all, at least they try to be objective most of the time and provide many discussions with guests from most sides of the spectrum.

EDIT: corrected reputable ;) thanks Tor
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:27:10 PM by magnamentis »
http://magnamentis.com
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1392 on: February 14, 2019, 09:22:46 PM »
Quote
I like Tesla (@iliketeslas) 2/12/19, 4:08 AM
I have repeated this for years. Tesla will partner with big auto because big auto is broke without Tesla. It's super clear. $tsla $tslaq
https://twitter.com/iliketeslas/status/1095248202108977152

Quote
Tesla Driver (@m_xalher) 2/12/19, 2:34 PM
Norway’s leading Volvo importer says it’s been hit by “EV tsunami”. Development tempo in Norwegian market “too high” for the auto industry to keep up. (Business daily DN today)
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1095405832257323009

Quote
LiveSquawk (@LiveSquawk) 2/12/19, 5:37 PM
Ford Is Stepping Up Preparations To Move Production Out Of Britain - The Times, Citing Company Statement To PM May In Private Call With Business Leaders
https://twitter.com/livesquawk/status/1095451775920992256

——-
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 2/14/19, 1:12 AM
Some sites maintained an almost daily Tesla deathwatch 11 years ago, reporting with an awful delight. 
4000 days later …
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1095928711331831808

Tesla Vs World: Unique Look Back At Tesla Killers That Failed To Kill
https://insideevs.com/tesla-vs-world-tesla-killers-vaporware/

No, Rivian is most definitely not ‘Tesla’s worst nightmare’
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vs-rivian-rivalry-debunked/
(It’s Ford’s! ;) )

——
Quote
(@rocketisfine) 2/13/19, 6:59 AM
So @Tesla parked a Model X in downtown Cologne (Germany) & within like 10 minutes people were queuing to sign up for test drives
https://twitter.com/rocketisfine/status/1095653604025950208

—-
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/13/19, 2:12 PM
Chinese Gov media CCTV reports:
The first batch of @Tesla Model 3 arrived in Tianjin Port.
Two other freighters with M3, "Morning Cindy" and "Emerald Ace", will also arrive in Shanghai and Tianjin Ports next week.
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1095762568235237376
     
Rather balanced article:
Tesla Rushes Model 3s to China Before Trade-War Truce Expires
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-02-13/tesla-rushes-model-3s-to-china-before-trade-war-truce-expires?__twitter_impression=true
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1393 on: Today at 02:43:39 AM »
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/in-2017-the-feds-said-tesla-autopilot-cut-crashes-40-that-was-bogus/


Quote
In 2017, the feds said Tesla Autopilot cut crashes 40%—that was bogus


Quote
But now NHTSA's raw data set is available, and, if anything, it appears to contradict Musk's claims. The majority of the vehicles in the Tesla data set suffered from missing data or other problems that made it impossible to say whether the activation of Autosteer increased or decreased the crash rate. But when QCS focused on 5,714 vehicles whose data didn't suffer from these problems, it found that the activation of Autosteer actually increased crash rates by 59 percent.


At this point I'm pretty sure Musk has never made any claims that aren't outright lies or grossly exaggerated. From his philanthropy (promising to fix Flint's water crisis, but instead bought teachers laptops), to his SpaceX sci-fi bologna (a water tower company built his mars transporter prototype), and almost everything surrounding Tesla. Why are people on this forum still defending him? He should be openly mocked.





https://www.wivb.com/news/investigates/former-tesla-workers-paint-grim-picture-of-buffalo-plant/1754568826

Quote
In November, Tesla gave the media its first glimpse inside the Buffalo factory.

Employees described it as a “dog and pony” show that was planned by Tesla for over a month. They said Tesla had walls built to hide unused equipment and blocked off large areas. Tesla said the employees are mistaken and saw a warehouse constructed to both secure and protect equipment and to organize the space.

The tour was an extremely controlled event, with the company picking employees to speak with reporters and not letting cameras inside. Footage recorded by Tesla was provided to television outlets like News 4.

“It was all fabricated for show,” Witherell said.

“There was no actual production that day so some of the teams in their specific area were instructed to make sure they looked busy and they actually were working on the same module over and over again.”

----
https://twitter.com/willCIR/status/1095094022173949953

Quote
Remember when @elonmusk claimed that Cal/OSHA looked into Tesla underreporting injuries and found "that we had not been doing anything of the sort"?

Well, it wasn't true then, and it's even less true now. Cal/OSHA just cited Tesla *again* for failing to record worker injuries.



it's become a weekly thing that I read something that displays Musk's dishonesty and fraudulent behavior. He's like the Donald Trump for tech obsessed weirdos.

And then I read this thread. Sigmetnow has a particular knack for posting only positive news about Tesla. And obsessively. It drowns everything out while making Musk look like Our Only Savior. It's tiring and annoying. People who digest a lot of information through these boards will get the wrong idea.

Musk is an awful person, and his "vision" to save us from climate change is a scam to make himself richer and more powerful. Why the hell do you people not get that? How are $60,000 cars doing anything about climate change? You could buy 300 $200 bicycles with that sort of money. I just don't get it. I really don't.

I feel like I'm going insane every time I read this thread. You would think that a forum dedicated to climate change would have a little common sense and TRY to be critical of a billionaire who flies around in a private jet.

How many years do we have left to save us from climate change? Do we really have the luxury to blindly embrace every billionaires vanity project  in the hope that "he's actually one of the good ones, he's gonna save us, please don't say anything mean about him".

How long will it take before we finally realize that there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach we're taking for climate change? The idea that People like Musk are our only hope is got to be the best example of how the rich and powerful have bound us into our miserable stockholm syndrome.
It is so hopeless. Defeating climate change. We're still stuck throwing money at rich people. And I don't see us ever stopping until it's too late.

We should be building guillotines not cars.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1394 on: Today at 03:40:21 AM »
You can believe whatever you choose to believe about Musk and whatever, but advocating guillotines for rich people as a solution?

Yamatin

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1395 on: Today at 03:50:23 AM »
Let's say you are right zizek. Musk and Telsa are bad and should go away. Then what is the play? I see the main argument against Telsa being
1) it takes up time and money that could otherwise go to other solutions, and
2) it consumes the conversion, thus preventing the discussion from going towards higher impact solutions.

It's the old Green BAU vs. end BAU argument. After 12 years of corporate sustainability consulting, I, unfortunately, land squarely in the Green BAU view as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop. Ending Telsa would more than likely mean the auto industry goes back to slow playing anything new and we lose another decade while waiting for China EVs to hit western quality standards and take over.

This isn't to say I like Green BAU over end BAU (and I would guess most Green BAU advocates don't either) - Green BAU will end up leaving us with 3 to 4 degrees temperature rise. On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1396 on: Today at 04:07:53 AM »
You can believe whatever you choose to believe about Musk and whatever, but advocating guillotines for rich people as a solution?

That was a joke. Obviously. jeez. But just to humor myself:
15TWh of fossil fuel electricity production. $.06 per kWh for renewables, we're looking at about $900 billion dollars to decarbonize the worldwide electricity grid.

The collective wealth of all the 2,200 billionaires is 9.1 trillions.  So if we guillotined those 2200 billionaires we would be able to use their wealth to decarbonize the world's electrical grid, and hopefully save humanity. (I know wealth doesn't really translate well into anything liquid, but we're just having fun).

And at what cost, you would probably only need hundred guillotines at most. You're talking no more than $100,000. It's simple math here.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1397 on: Today at 04:12:38 AM »
Let's say you are right zizek. Musk and Telsa are bad and should go away. Then what is the play? I see the main argument against Telsa being
1) it takes up time and money that could otherwise go to other solutions, and
2) it consumes the conversion, thus preventing the discussion from going towards higher impact solutions.

It's the old Green BAU vs. end BAU argument. After 12 years of corporate sustainability consulting, I, unfortunately, land squarely in the Green BAU view as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop. Ending Telsa would more than likely mean the auto industry goes back to slow playing anything new and we lose another decade while waiting for China EVs to hit western quality standards and take over.

This isn't to say I like Green BAU over end BAU (and I would guess most Green BAU advocates don't either) - Green BAU will end up leaving us with 3 to 4 degrees temperature rise. On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.
Well said!

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1398 on: Today at 04:13:53 AM »
On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.

Saying it doesn't make it true nor founded in solid facts that are agreed upon as BAU today. The details matter you need to clearly articulate - in detail - what precisely you mean by "end BAU", how it comes about, and what transpires after that. Hypothetical scenarios between different "word phrases" really doesn't say much at all. You need to show exactly how you arrived at "would likely".

Quote
as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop

That's a belief, not a fact. Human History, Psychology & Cognitive Science proves it's completely wrong headed and terribly misinformed.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:07:09 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1399 on: Today at 04:31:29 AM »
You can believe whatever you choose to believe about Musk and whatever, but advocating guillotines for rich people as a solution?

Comments like this annoy the bejeezes out me, probably much more than Zizeks comment annoys oren. (sigh)

There is this thing in language known as literary license. There's also the matter of everyday Irony.

Memo: From Nick Hanauer
To: My Fellow Zillionaires
You probably don’t know me, but like you I am one of those .01%ers, a proud and unapologetic capitalist.
Title : The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014

I am happy for people to express themselves anyway they like. The clever use of words and word plays is a key part of that....... it's called Art.

HINT: He really didn't mean that the Pitchforks were literally coming ..... (sigh) 
« Last Edit: Today at 05:11:52 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.